[HN Gopher] Rejection Therapy (2011)
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Rejection Therapy (2011)
Author : luu
Score : 59 points
Date : 2022-03-21 18:30 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.lincolnquirk.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.lincolnquirk.com)
| bckr wrote:
| I emailed Lincoln for advice, following[1], on a whim.
|
| He emailed me back with a thoughtful reply. I appreciated it (he
| told me my idea is bad, which I appreciate, sting as it does).
|
| [1] https://www.lincolnquirk.com/2021/11/18/advice.html
| msluyter wrote:
| Similar to what the famous psychologist Albert Ellis did:
|
| "As an adolescent, Albert was extremely shy around ladies. At age
| 19, he started showing signs of thinking like a cognitive-
| behavioral therapist by forcing himself to talk to about 100
| women in the Bronx Botanical Gardens within a period of one
| month. This helped him get rid of his fear of rejection by
| women."[1]
|
| "He found 130 women sitting alone that month on park benches. He
| sat next to all of them, whereupon 30 got up and walked away. He
| spoke to the remaining 100 -- for the first time in his life --
| about the birds and the bees, the flowers, books, whatever came
| to mind.
|
| Al later said, "If Fred Skinner, who was then teaching at Indiana
| University, had known about my exploits, he would have thought I
| would have got extinguished, because of the 100 women I made one
| date -- and she didn't show up!
|
| "But I prepared myself philosophically, even then, by seeing that
| nobody took out a stiletto and cut my balls off, nobody vomited
| and ran away, nobody called the cops. I had 100 pleasant
| conversations and with the second 100 I got good and made a few
| dates." [2]
|
| "Nobody took out a stiletto and cut my balls off" -- I've always
| loved that expression.
|
| [1] https://totallyhistory.com/albert-ellis/ [2]
| http://www.rebtnetwork.org/ask/may06.html
| [deleted]
| colpabar wrote:
| >"Nobody took out a stiletto and cut my balls off" -- I've
| always loved that expression.
|
| I think the modern era equivalent would be having your picture
| taken and posted on social media with the intent of shaming
| you. I cannot say for sure whether it's more likely to happen,
| but posting a pic on twitter is significantly easier than
| mutilating someone with a dagger.
|
| It'd be interesting to see how this would work out today.
| beaconstudios wrote:
| Sure that could theoretically happen, but so what? Some
| people you don't know make fun of you for being awkward. It's
| not the end of the world!
| phkahler wrote:
| >> It'd be interesting to see how this would work out today.
|
| Start after work today. Report in next month when you've
| tried 100 times.
| mettamage wrote:
| > It'd be interesting to see how this would work out today.
|
| I've approached 1000s of people about ten years ago. Back in
| 2012, it wasn't an issue. The worst rejections I've faced
| were:
|
| * a woman shouting very loudly to go the f- away. I
| immediately backed away put my hands up and replied "ok". Her
| loud voice grew softer as our distance grew. This was at a
| train station.
|
| * I was pushed down from a stairs. I should've been hurt
| badly but apparently I was running so fast that my legs were
| keeping up with the stairs and falling from it, transforming
| the whole ordeal from falling to running. Interestingly
| enough it wasn't the woman I approached, but the boyfriend.
| He arrived 5 min. after I talked to her girlfriend (I had no
| clue) and he immediately grabbed me and threw me off the
| stairs. Once down the stairs (unharmed), I asked him how I
| was supposed to know since I saw the woman sitting alone. He
| told me that that wasn't his problem that he was on the
| bathroom for 5 min. leaving his GF alone. I told him that
| next time he saw a situation like that he could've just tried
| talking first. He replied indifferent to it. I wished him a
| good night. This was in a club.
|
| * I got headbutted by a guy, simply because I wanted to make
| a conversation with him. He told me (sarcastically) if I
| liked it. I told him that I didn't and that this was the end
| of our conversation. I walked away, he didn't pursue (as I
| predicted). This was at a festival.
|
| * I got scammed out of 5 euro's because I was making
| conversation with 2 Russians (10 years ago). This was on the
| street.
|
| Yea, that's it. After this I get an immediate drop to stuff
| like "I'm sorry, but I have a boyfriend", "I'm sorry I don't
| feel like talking at the moment", or similar friendly
| sounding rejections.
|
| So what's the upside?
|
| * I met one woman. 2 minutes in the conversation, the topic
| became about ballroom dancing, taught her some ballroom on
| the spot. I got a rush of adrenaline and butterflies and so
| did she (she looked and acted different after dancing). We
| cuddled and kissed a lot that day. I was a teenager back
| then, so this was kind of the dream, lol. The conversation
| started off in a mall.
|
| * A guy came couchsurfing in my place, that night I went out
| with him and I was crowdsurfing thanks to him. He told me to
| get on his hands, I didn't get it but did it anyway and he
| threw me in the air. I was scared but couldn't do anything.
| It was awesome.
|
| * I walk in a club, see a woman, ask her a question, we chat
| for a minute. We start making out (I have no clue how that
| happened, it must've been her, I don't really dare to make
| moves like that) and next thing you know she invites me to go
| to London. The club was in Amsterdam, and the next day I took
| a bus to London to continue our fun dynamic.
|
| * Making an amazing friend. In this case, I was getting
| invited to their high school to study there for a day and be
| on their graduation throwing beer all over each other while
| standing on the back of a truck (a tradition there, lol).
|
| I think I'd have at least 20 stories like this. Some of these
| stories involve long relationships, one of them still
| ongoing. So for me it was definitely worth it. Interestingly,
| as you can read, the most aggressive rejections were all
| male. Women don't get physical that quickly, not in my
| experience anyway. Some men get physical really quickly. This
| also means that from my experience, it's more dangerous to
| try and make friends with a man than it is to try and date a
| woman. At least, as far as random places go (like clubs,
| malls, etc.).
| throwamon wrote:
| Have you ever avoided situations due to social anxiety?
| Ever had trouble keeping a conversation going? How many
| times have you been explicitly called
| attractive/unattractive by someone you felt attracted to?
| Was your childhood good (caring parents, enough food, no
| bullying)? Genuine questions.
| philosopher1234 wrote:
| This seems insanely far fetched. Why would someone photograph
| you just for talking to them?
| cobertos wrote:
| I walked by someone with a body cam yesterday who was
| stopping people to ask them about political beliefs in a
| abrasive way. People are definitely taking specifically
| crafted IRL things and using them as fuel in the digital
| space.
|
| Not in a big city either, a smaller satellite city of a
| bigg midwestern city.
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| Oh yeah I was getting filmed talking to a book dealer who
| sold his books on the sidewalk. Nine days ago. Just some
| asshole staring at us and filming with what looked like a
| digital photographic photo camera, it was small. I went
| up to him and asked him what the fuck, he said "oh haha
| nothing nothing I wasn't filming" while you could see
| filming on his screen.
|
| That's what you get for making billions of video cameras,
| they actually get used sometimes. They're little black
| holes, light cannot escape them.
| [deleted]
| armchairhacker wrote:
| what a nice character, you should've asked them on a date
| dtrent wrote:
| Asking people for things subjects them to anxiety too. Doing it
| as a form of free therapy is kind of shitty.
| earthscienceman wrote:
| I understand why you say this, I upmodded you for the sake of a
| discussion, and it seems that society is trending towards
| "interact with people as little as possible". However, it's not
| like asking someone for something in public is imposing on
| their autonomy or forcing them into doing something they don't
| want to. You can say no. If no is too much, you can just walk
| away. You live in a society with implicit agreements on
| interactions in public spaces. If that gives you anxiety, maybe
| you should also try some therapy, free form or otherwise.
| dtrent wrote:
| Asking strangers for things subjects them to anxiety too. Doing
| it as a form of free therapy is kind of shitty.
| cobertos wrote:
| I disagree. I get this exact anxiety, but the anxiety needs to
| be challenged. The communication is what forms the bedrock of a
| healthy society that can talk about it's problems and needs and
| find it's way to the empathy of the decision makers.
| dtrent wrote:
| maybe but making the decision for someone else of whether,
| when, and how their anxieties should be challenged is, again,
| kind of shitty
| olyjohn wrote:
| Are you saying that you should never interact with
| strangers because you might make them anxious?
|
| There's probably tons of things that can make people
| anxious. I'm not going to lock myself in the house to avoid
| making others anxious.
|
| As a socially anxious person myself, I would love for
| someone to start the conversation with me.
| nuclearnice1 wrote:
| I agree with you.
|
| He doesn't even want these things. May I try on your
| sunglasses? Can I have a taste of your ice cream?
|
| I guess they set the bar low to encourage the
| experimenters. "Don't worry you can ask for anything -- ask
| for a dollar! Borrow their newspaper!"
|
| I would be more open to it if they had done some thinking.
| What's something you genuinely need? Go ask for it. But I
| guess that's not as simple. This is just street side IRL
| spam. Can I have those plastic flowers that I don't want by
| which I mean can I waste your time with a nonsense game so
| I fresh content for my blog?
|
| It's also fundamentally selfish: "ask random strangers to
| do you favors"
|
| Why not go out into the world and ask if you can do favors?
| Find a homeless guy or gal. Ask if he wants your shoes. Ask
| if she needs a dollar. Then you at least anticipate finding
| people who welcome partition in your psychological
| experiment.
| at_a_remove wrote:
| You just asked me to consider _yet one more thing_ in the vast
| machinery of social behavior. I didn 't need that! That's also
| kind of shitty.
| dtrent wrote:
| You didn't have to read or respond to my comment. If you're
| suggesting that commenting on an article is equivalent to
| approaching a stranger in-person with a pretextual request
| calculated for your own therapeutic benefit... well if that's
| your suggestion then I suspect phrasing it directly instead
| of obscuring it with irony makes it perfectly obvious that
| your position isn't great
| bseidensticker wrote:
| That other people have feelings?
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| I live rurally now, running errands in towns of about 8000, 200
| and 900 people respectively.
|
| I've been engaging in a lot more smalltalk. I'm very rusty at it
| to be honest (no one talks to anyone in cities), but I think
| overall it's been good to me.
|
| Asking for favours though... I don't know, seems a little weird.
| I'd be extremely mistrustful of any strangers asking me for a
| favour.
| whoisburbansky wrote:
| I wonder how long after the exercise the "affordance" effect
| lasted.
| whatshisface wrote:
| This is a tragedy of the commons scenario that will ultimately
| lead to people being less friendly. Right now it's assumed that
| if someone comes up to ask you for something, they have a good
| reason.
| sacrosancty wrote:
| Jesus Christ, why so much hand-wringing? MLM salesmen exist,
| religious prostheletizers exist, weird people exist. We manage
| to stay friendly regardless, even towards those people who
| often open their conversation with something dishonest to hide
| their true intent. Society isn't going to be altered by some
| wave of asking-for-favors fad. It's all perfectly fine.
| whatshisface wrote:
| > _MLM salesmen exist, religious prostheletizers exist, weird
| people exist._
|
| Those three groups contribute substantially to what people
| expect when they meet a stranger in public and adding more
| disingenuous possibilities would make it worse.
| turmeric_root wrote:
| omginternets wrote:
| I dunno, I've lived in places where casual interaction is more
| common, and it can be delightful. A culture of "don't talk to
| me unless there's a practical issue" is, at the very least,
| prone to atomization.
|
| In fact, I don't think you're quite right about the tacit
| assumption involved. I rather think it is assumed that if
| someone asks you something, they it is not for instrumental
| purposes. If someone is talking to me, it's because they want
| something; that request had better be legitimate. And this is
| what I find unnerving about "Rejection Therapy" and its ilk:
| I'm being used as a means to an end.
|
| I think we need _more_ interaction with no-strings-attached,
| not less.
| whatshisface wrote:
| I think we agree if you realize that talking to just talk,
| and talking to solve a real problem, are both good reasons to
| talk, while almost anything that involves concealed
| motivations is not.
| sirmarksalot wrote:
| I'm curious if this was actually done under the guidance of a
| mental health professional, or if it was more of an informal
| team-building type of thing. I say that because I can see this
| backfiring under some circumstances. Sort of like how drinking
| removes a lot of your inhibitions, but not the consequences that
| created those inhibitions in the first place.
|
| I can see getting into the groove of it and then doing a whole
| lot of things that you wouldn't normally do, and then going home
| that night and lying awake thinking to yourself "WHAT THE HELL
| DID I JUST DO?!!"
| yial wrote:
| cjlm wrote:
| I think about Rejection Therapy [0] a lot. Being impervious to
| rejection has to be some sort of superpower.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rejection_Therapy
| omginternets wrote:
| As with most things, I think it's a balance. A complete
| desensitization to rejection also implies an inability to
| regulate your social behavior, which in turn is a great way to
| get ostracized. The best hard-salesmen are also some of the
| most insufferable individuals, precisely because they can't
| take a hint.
| klabb3 wrote:
| Slightly OT: It seems to me that a large part of our social
| fabric is based on chance encounters. Talking to strangers in
| passing, as you go about your day to day business. With
| increasing digitalization, especially in the first world, we're
| quickly losing these opportunities. There is often no longer any
| need to talk to anyone when buying groceries, running errands,
| asking for directions, etc. All of these are potential entry
| points to friendship/acquaintances/romantic partners/knowledge
| sharing.
|
| There are a few new opportunities, such as message boards, meet
| ups, social media, etc but it's become very clear to me they are
| mostly inferior substitutes, lacking in both quantity and
| quality.
|
| Online dating took off, which is overall a good sign imo, despite
| its problems. However, other chance encounters mostly
| disappeared. This could in part explain the modern paradox of
| being increasingly connected but more isolated, especially in
| terms of diversity (people of different ages, socioeconomic
| groups, interests, thought patterns, political leanings etc).
| armchairhacker wrote:
| honestly i think it's a shame that online ways to meet people
| are inferior than chance encounters. Chance encounters rely on
| luck, with online you get filters and algorithms to pair you
| with similar people.
|
| Unfortunately the filters filter out good people, the
| algorithms are shoddy and gamed, and you genuinely don't know
| if who you meet online is some weirdo who could turn out to
| harass or stalk you (of course there are weird people in person
| too, but it's a lot harder to look and act "normal" in real
| life than it is on Reddit).
| dimitar wrote:
| When I was a student in university many years ago I didn't know
| anyone in a new city so I decided to say hi to the whole floor in
| the dorm which was around 60 people.
|
| There was some awkwardness, but I actually made some friends and
| had some interesting conversations with people I would probably
| never speak to otherwise. When I returned to my room it was maybe
| two hours later and I was exhausted and had started to become
| drunk thanks to the customary shots of rakia I was often offered.
|
| I think it should be a tradition of some sort.
| munificent wrote:
| Using strangers as unwitting tools in your own psychological
| therapy without their consent seems super sketchy to me.
| EsperHugh wrote:
| My psychologist suggested I partake in 1 act of kindness every
| day, doesn't matter if in favor of a loved one or a stranger.
| This was to help me deal with some mental problems I had.
| Following this advice in multiple occasions I actively helped
| people on the streets, be it by helping them put the groceries
| in their cars or by taking something that fell off their
| pockets. I would say this helped me immensely, would you find
| it super sketchy?
| sirmarksalot wrote:
| It gets complicated, doesn't it? I mean, in your example,
| you're doing things that help people, vs. the author creating
| social pressure to do unreasonable things, but in either
| case, you're both still pulling people out of their comfort
| zone without their consent. The way society works vs.
| community makes all of these things ethically difficult.
| Communities get built when people step out of their comfort
| zones and help each other, but society only works because at
| some point people mind their own business and let people go
| about their day.
|
| So I think it's a delicate balancing act, and there's no easy
| test for whether it's good or bad. I think holistically it
| can come down to what kind of energy you're putting into your
| environment, and whether it's positive or negative.
| beaconstudios wrote:
| I'm not sure how social alienation (everybody just
| pretending each other don't exist) can be framed as a good
| thing for keeping society together. In my eyes, it's an
| extremely negative side effect of economic individualism.
| We'd be better off if we were all a bit more connected to
| the people around us.
| nuclearnice1 wrote:
| I prefer this at least because you are performing an act of
| kindness rather than taking a random favor.
|
| To the extent we do not have enough pro social behavior,
| injecting random kindness encourages more. Showing up and
| demanding nonsense favors encourages less.
| papandada wrote:
| I feel like I use strangers as unwitting tools in my own
| psychological therapy all the time, but yes here it's sketchy
| because rejecting someone (the intended response) is an
| unpleasant activity.
| sacrosancty wrote:
| Perhaps those people who suffer rejecting-unpleasantness
| should do their own therapy where they go around rejecting
| people's requests!
| shreddit wrote:
| They could go into stores and wander seemingly helpless
| around, to be asked whether they need help.
|
| This could be discouraging towards "new" employees though.
| Maybe they should walk around and learn getting rejected...
| oh well
| dtrent wrote:
| It wouldn't pass an IRB. This sort of thing is fundamentally
| selfish. At best de minimis but you can imagine how annoying
| public life would get if tacitly recruiting strangers as unpaid
| therapists was at all common.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Third Place [0] theory would suggest that places where you
| can meet and interact with (semi-) strangers are critical to
| building communities. I'd argue that a part of that is the
| internal self-development function that is served by talking
| to strangers (effectively 'recruiting strangers as unpaid
| therapists`). Done well, it is mutual (you are each building
| social trust by interacting with one another).
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
| dtrent wrote:
| Would it or does it? In fairness, I used to write like this
| too.
|
| If the theory endorses selfish deceptions then its not
| worth adherence. If it doesn't endorse them, then it
| doesn't support the practice in the article, and its not
| worth discussing here.
| tiborsaas wrote:
| Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2538/
| henriquemaia wrote:
| Thank you for your comment. I came here to say roughly the same
| thing.
|
| Yes, in a way we are always using others as means to an end.
| But to make this interpretation true, I have to really push the
| boundaries of what I mean by using others, by mean, and by end.
|
| However, let us try to think this from a different perspective.
| How about what others in this _experiment_ felt? How would you
| feel if someone came out of nowhere and asked you to give them
| this or that when you cannot even fathom why they are doing it?
|
| To me, this so-called therapy may work for the people exposing
| themselves in order to get exposed to negative reactions. But
| this is just a very self-centered way of treating other people
| as cardboard cutouts, not as real persons. They are merely
| background features like trees, cars or streetlights.
|
| In the end, maybe you get a kick out of getting out of your
| comfort zone. But you're also training yourself to be
| indifferent to the feelings of others. If that's the trade-off
| of this _therapy_, no thank you.
| slibhb wrote:
| > But you're also training yourself to be indifferent to the
| feelings of others.
|
| Obsessive focus on the feelings and opinions of others (self
| consciousness) is at the root of many people's social
| anxiety.
|
| Complete indifference makes you a pyschopath but there's such
| a thing as being too concerned about other people's feelings.
| henriquemaia wrote:
| Empathy is not being obsessive with the feelings of others.
| Others are as real people as you are. If you go that way,
| thinking of what others feel instead of empathizing with
| what they're experiencing, this immediately becomes an
| abstraction and you fail to realize the humanity, or lack
| of, in this.
| slibhb wrote:
| It's not a binary. Becoming more indifferent to other
| people is necessary for the kind of people who go through
| this sort of therapy.
|
| To open your mouth and speak to another person is to risk
| offending them. There are people who are so afraid of
| that possibility that they never speak. In that case,
| less empathy/more indifference is good.
| henriquemaia wrote:
| First of all, thanks for engaging. It's nice to think
| this through with the help of others.
|
| That being said, I have an issue with this being called
| 'therapy'. It may as well be, if we just think about the
| person receiving the benefit. However, it's a bit
| predatory through the lense of the other person.
|
| But it's like you said. It's not binary. Yes, it bothers
| me a little. Nonetheless, as with everything, it may have
| its uses.
|
| Again, thanks for your comments.
| beaconstudios wrote:
| A good compromise would be something like asking people what
| the time is, or if they know any good restaurants in the area
| or something that isn't really asking them for something
| weird.
| majormajor wrote:
| Asking favors vs just interacting with people feels potentially
| sketchy to me, but on the whole, I think strangers in-person
| would be well off interacting with each other more these days,
| not less.
|
| I've always liked how Terry Pratchett put it: "Individuals
| aren't naturally paid-up members of the human race, except
| biologically. They need to be bounced around by the Brownian
| motion of society, which is a mechanism by which human beings
| constantly remind one another that they are...well...human
| beings."
| exo-pla-net wrote:
| It's sketchy if you frame it in such an awful, uncharitable
| way. Behold:
|
| Talking about the weather = using strangers as unwitting tools
| in your compulsive need for social interaction.
|
| How about rejection therapy = "Harmlessly interacting with
| other humans to overcome your trauma, so you can become a more
| productive member of society"?
| morelisp wrote:
| You're just not thinking rationally enough.
| klyrs wrote:
| What does "thinking rationally" mean in this context?
| anotherman554 wrote:
| The article references some seminar on rationality, so
| "thinking rationally" means "thinking like the person at
| the seminar says people should think" presumably.
| morelisp wrote:
| As idlewords once described it, "AI cosplay" - a dumb
| person's idea of what a smart computer would do.
|
| It's honestly a little heartening that comments on HN don't
| immediately recognize the movement anymore.
| maerF0x0 wrote:
| afaik this is actually called "Exposure Therapy" the author is
| just being more specific about what it is they're being exposed
| to.
|
| https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/patients-and-families/exp...
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