[HN Gopher] The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads
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The Pied Piper of Psychedelic Toads
Author : mitchbob
Score : 25 points
Date : 2022-03-21 13:41 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.newyorker.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.newyorker.com)
| pmoriarty wrote:
| See "Open Letter Concerning Abuses by Octavio Rettig and Gerry
| Sandoval":
|
| https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86872
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Thanks for posting this as the new yorker article kinda just
| scratche on it, which is a real shame considering these people
| have left death in their wake. Absolutely garbage journalism to
| somehow omit that there's murder arrest warrants out for them.
| There are so many psychologically manipulative, abusive people
| working in these spaces. Literally these people are just
| profiteering crackheads who got into making money on giving
| waaaaaay too powerful psychedelics to innocent people who don't
| know any better. They need to be popped out like bad pimples.
|
| 5-meo-dmt is extremely powerful stuff and unlike DMT it can
| cause you to end up in the hospital or dead. It's not something
| to be trifled with. It made a friend of mine's mom really lose
| her sense of what is even real anymore. I usually see these
| sorts of negative results in people who are long-term abusing
| hard drugs like stimulants or opiates over time, not like
| immediately after a few sessions of a psychedelic.
| mythrwy wrote:
| I caught one of these toads once when I lived in Arizona. On a
| golf course. They look kind of like big frogs.
|
| At the time I had no idea what it was (probably a good thing, I
| was young and a bit adventurous). Just a toad. I let him go by
| the water hazard.
| twomoonsbysurf wrote:
| I don't recommend it.
|
| It is incredibly intense-- even traumatic. And there is no
| precise "dosing".
|
| Stay away from all drugs. Drugs do not lead to enlightenment.
| They do not lead to some hidden knowledge. They throw your neuro-
| chemicals out of balance-- potentially forever if you're
| misfortunate.
|
| Hallucinogens can affect you forever, negatievely, and never
| stop-- and there is no cure if they do, for example:
| "Hallucinogen-persisting perception disorder (HPPD) is a long-
| lasting and potentially permanent syndrome characterized by a
| spontaneous recurrence of perceptual/visual disturbances".
|
| It is not worth the risk. You have only one brain-- don't tamper
| with its health and safety. Again-- there's no hidden knowledge
| there, no enlightenment. It's not worth it: put your focus on
| something valuable, productive, and safe.
| Zababa wrote:
| > Drugs do not lead to enlightenment. They do not lead to some
| hidden knowledge.
|
| This reminds me of something near the end of "Fear and Loathing
| in Las Vegas":
|
| > We are all wired into a survival trip now. No more of the
| speed that fueled the 60s. That was the fatal flaw in Tim
| Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness
| expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook
| realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took
| him seriously. All those pathetically eager acid freaks who
| thought they could buy peace and understanding for three bucks
| a hit. But their loss and failure is ours too. What Leary took
| down with him was the central illusion of a whole lifestyle
| that he helped to create. A generation of permanent cripples,
| failed seekers, who never understood the essential old-mystic
| fallacy of the acid culture: The desperate assumption that
| somebody - or at least some force - is tending the light at the
| end of the tunnel.
|
| My own experience is relatively tame. I'd say the worst part
| was the difference between my expectations and reality. The
| "hidden knowledge" you talk about and the "fallacy of the acid
| culture" are a good illustration of that. But I wouldn't call
| this life-altering or destroying. It's like going to a country
| that you really want to go to, only to find out it's not what
| you expected. I've seen many people that would rationalize this
| by saying "the drugs showed you what you needed, that you need
| to manage your expectations", but you can rationalize/anaylze
| any situation in your life like that. I went to Chernobyl and
| had a great time, so I should try to go out of my comfort zone
| more often. I didn't do my best in school and regret it, so I
| should try to work have to have less/no regrets. Everything has
| meaning once you search for it.
| systemsignal wrote:
| Have you seen this study on how psilocybin substantially
| reduced depression and anxiety in people with life threatening
| cancer?
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5367557/
|
| Would love to know if you know anything else in the world that
| can do that repeatably
| burner556 wrote:
| Drugs are actually tons of fun. I think in the long run all
| drugs become detrimental (alc, caffeine, etc) but wow you can
| have experiences you will never forget and they def-o change
| the way you look at the world.
|
| I would recommend everybody I know to experiment with drugs. I
| don't recommend becoming dependent on ANY drugs.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| It is a risk, but so is riding in a car, which can cause
| irreparable brain damage or death if one is injured in a car
| accident. Skiing, skydiving, and scuba diving carry similar
| risks. Even crossing the street is risky.
|
| As adults we evaluate risks and make a decision as to whether
| the benefits outweigh the risks.
|
| I don't think we can say a priori whether something is too
| risky for someone without knowing the person and their
| circumstances. Some people are really at the end of their rope
| and desperate to try anything, and have already tried many
| risky things (like antidepressants or other medication, each of
| which carries their own risks and possibly severe side effects)
| and will continue doing risky things without a fraction of the
| potential benefits of psychedelics.
|
| There have been studies which show that psychedelics help
| people, even to the point of "curing" some of them after a
| single dose. The evidence so far shows enormous promise and far
| more effectiveness than traditional antidepressants for severe-
| treatment resistant depression.
|
| How can we tell people who are suffering, some of whom are
| suicidal even, that they shouldn't try something which holds so
| much promise?
|
| Yes, there are risks, and no guarantees. But steps can be taken
| to maximize the chances of a positive experience... such as
| doing it in a safe setting with a trusted, trained therapist or
| guide, and spending a lot of time afterwards integrating the
| experience with a therapist.
|
| Some other recommendations for enhancing safety:
|
| - lie in the recovery position[1], with the mouth facing
| downward so fluid can drain
|
| - abstain from food and drink for at least 4 or 5 hours
| beforehand
|
| - don't mix substances
|
| - thoroughly vet anyone you entrust your safety to, and stay
| away from facilitators who mess with your body or mind during
| the experience
|
| Also see the best practices guide of _The Conclave_ : [2]
|
| [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovery_position
|
| [2] - https://theconclave.info/
| braingenious wrote:
| > Stay away from all drugs. Drugs do not lead to enlightenment.
| They do not lead to some hidden knowledge. They throw your
| neuro-chemicals out of balance-- potentially forever if you're
| misfortunate.
|
| Counterpoint: I have done quite a lot of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT and
| they were both fun and interesting substances.
|
| My advice is: Do _not_ stay away from drugs unless: a) that is
| your personal preference, b) you have a specific medical issue
| that precludes being able to experiment with something safely
| or c) you are not curious enough to educate yourself thoroughly
| about a substance before trying it out.
|
| HPPD is wildly exaggerated by almost exclusively people that
| have a vested interest in policing other people's behavior and
| values. Belief in the dangers of "the ability of any substance
| to permanently change your brain in a negative and nonspecific
| way" (a hilarious logically impossible supposition) almost
| always follow up with "don't do drugs, instead do what I tell
| you to do. Read my self help book or convert to my religion. My
| values are the best values."
| photochemsyn wrote:
| All psychedelics are at least as safe as alcohol, if consumed
| responsibly. We accept alcohol even though drinking too much at
| one sitting can kill you and drunk people routinely smash their
| cars into other cars, etc., so 'safety' is a relative concept.
| Caution is clearly the best approach.
|
| However, the claim that 'hallucinogens can affect you forever,
| negatively and never stop' is unsupported. These drugs share a
| common receptor as the basis of their action, the 5-HTP
| receptor, which is involved with sensory perception at some low
| level in the brain. This can result in 'visions' or intensified
| color perception or numerous other effects (synthesia, etc.)
| Some people enjoy the experience, others do not. The most
| important rule for the neophyte experimentalist to follow is
| 'less is more'.
|
| Personally I found psychedelics immensely therapeutic and a
| great aid to quitting alcohol, and also of great benefit to my
| 3D-visualization skills. I'd also note that consumer culture
| norms ('more is always better') can cause disasters when mixed
| with psychedelics.
|
| However as I note in another comment, toads are a horrible
| source of 5-MeO-DMT due to the fact that toads of this type
| contain a variety of other toxins.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| The article briefly notes there are other sources of
| 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, but it's very brief:
|
| > "Although the most concentrated source of 5-MeO-DMT is the
| Sonoran Desert toad, the compound is also produced by some plant
| species in Latin America, where it was traditionally used in
| snuffs."
|
| The author fails to mention that these toads also contain an
| additional spectrum of toxins:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufotenin#Toads
|
| The plant-based snuffs containing 5-MeO-DMT, 5-OH-DMT, etc. in
| contrast are likely far safer, and have a very long history of
| use, for example the Cebil seed, Anandenanthera colubrina, has
| been used for thousands of years in the northwestern Argentine
| region of Puna. That would be a far better source for any
| therapeutic use than toads.
|
| All in all, not a very well researched article, and overly
| sensationalist as well.
| mitchbob wrote:
| Archived: https://archive.ph/xYDlq
| Alex3917 wrote:
| 5-MeO was extremely well known in 2013. It had already been
| featured multiple times on every psychedelic podcast, and there
| were multiple books about it. This whole article seems vaguely
| fake to me.
| pmoriarty wrote:
| I'd bet anything that the overwhelming majority of people in
| the world have never heard of it, and don't listen to
| psychedelic podcasts either.
| thanatos519 wrote:
| Highly recommended substance.
|
| See also https://erowid.org/columns/teafaerie/
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