[HN Gopher] Two-minute battery changes push India's delivery rid...
___________________________________________________________________
Two-minute battery changes push India's delivery riders to switch
to e-scooters
Author : rustoo
Score : 172 points
Date : 2022-03-21 19:45 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (theprint.in)
(TXT) w3m dump (theprint.in)
| mulmen wrote:
| When I was in Taiwan we saw Gogoro scooters in the wild. The
| battery is swapped at a kiosk in a couple of minutes. Riders pay
| a subscription for the scooter and access to the battery kiosk.
|
| Seems like a really great option. I would _love_ to have that in
| my city. We have dockless bicycles and scooters but a more
| capable and personal option would be awesome. I 'd sign up in a
| heartbeat.
|
| Sadly my city planners do not seem aware of motorcycles as a
| transportation option. We have no laws or infrastructure to
| encourage them or take advantage of the benefits. At a state
| level we at least get to cut ferry lines, but that seems to be
| the only perk.
| baybal2 wrote:
| The engineering company I work briefly passed over few
| proposals from South Asian companies deploying them. We worked
| on electric bikes, but decided to pass on a real road going
| scooter as we have near no vehicle experience besides
| individual electronic components.
|
| Both leading battery swap standards in India are from Taiwan.
| One is GoGoRo as you said, and another is Ionex.
|
| Ionex based scooters usually have more in the roadgoing
| department, and GoGoRo more in internet/app features.
|
| GoGoRo is founded by a Taiwanese guy who worked for a famous
| company in America, thus he is using his fame to get big money
| from financial funds. Manufacturing is mostly OEM.
|
| Ionex is made by an established player -- Kymco
| (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDNKQ18-QYY,) and has more
| firm standing in the industry. They have their own parts, and
| share service centres with their petrol scooters. The later is
| a very big thing in India, and South Asia in general.
|
| The biggest impediment for both turned out to be India road.
| Taiwanese scooters with tiny wheels don't fare well anywhere
| outside of big cities.
|
| Rural Indians really prefer classic motorcycles -- cheap,
| repairable, no exotic parts. The "app" things doesn't sell at
| all either. The only useful function for many on smart scooters
| is a theft alarm + GPS.
| [deleted]
| vondur wrote:
| In that case, it would be awesome to have some sort of standard
| battery for e-bikes, scooters, etc. Then you can just stop by
| some battery switching place swap one out on demand.
| noahtallen wrote:
| The other amazing benefit for this plan is that batteries are
| expected to fail and loose capacity after a few years. So
| being able to easily swap the most vulnerable component is
| awesome for long-term repairability!
| asdff wrote:
| We have subscription escooters which seem tempting to me, but
| the costs never pencil out. They end up being as much as the
| scooter within a years time or so, plus you are on the hook if
| some major damage or theft happens. Whats the point of that
| then? Might as well look for someone who will let you finance
| an ebike and put it on your renters or homeowners insurance for
| protection at that rate.
| codazoda wrote:
| My wife and I just rode Lime scooters in San Francisco and I
| was shocked by the cost. We rode about 4 miles in 45 minutes.
| When we got off, we were charged $60 (about $30 each). We
| could have taken Uber or Lyft for less.
|
| They have 1-hour and 1-day options, but I was told by CS
| (after) that the 1-hour pass only includes 30-minutes of
| actual riding. Uhg.
|
| I might buy one, because they are so fun, but I probably
| won't rent one again.
|
| I'm talking stand on scooters vs the sit on motorcycle type
| ones.
| bduerst wrote:
| Lime and other scooters in SF used to have much less
| expensive subscription options, but they've all recently
| dropped them for much more expensive ones.
|
| Bay Wheels bike annual subscription is worth it but only if
| you use them regularly (like commuting/weekends).
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| I think the point of those things, at least for the ebikes,
| is to rip off the tourists to compensate for the locals who
| have a subscription?
| a9h74j wrote:
| Bright side for tourists: No windows to break in the
| rental.
| ceeplusplus wrote:
| I think these are intended more for transportation than
| riding around (unlike the BayWheels type stuff). I used to
| commute to work on my own scooter and it only takes 15
| minutes or less to ride 4 miles on the road. My commute in
| the morning was just under 3 miles and downhill so I
| usually managed in 8 minutes.
| fragmede wrote:
| The point of that is that renting confers specific benefits
| that make it worthwhile despite the downsides. First off, no
| need to charge. Not the worst thing but there's nothing worse
| than running out of battery because you forgot to charge it.
| Additionally, no maintenance - the company employs mechanics
| that are better positioned to fix the scooters. Finally, no
| need to have the scooter with you - just use it whenever you
| want, in one direction, and then not have to lug a scooter
| with you for the rest of the day. Or, if you didn't ride it
| in, you can't use it for the rest of the day. If it's raining
| in the morning but clear in the evening, you don't have the
| scooter to ride home unless you rode it in for your morning
| commute.
|
| Now, you may not find that list enough to offset the
| downsides compared to buying your own, but judging from their
| seeming success, I'm not the only person that's done the math
| and intentionally chooses renting a scooter as-needed.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Access to credit is not as easy in India. This is just a
| straightforward capex to opex transformation that people can
| intuitively grasp. Combine that with no minimum commitment
| and it's transparent to them what expenses are, what income
| is, and what net income is.
|
| Indian users are very price-sensitive and there are extensive
| discussion networks running the numbers on these. They won't
| use these services unless it makes financial sense.
| thebean11 wrote:
| - Quick battery swapping
|
| - No maintenance or upgrade cost
|
| - Low upfront cost
|
| - Low commitment
| asdff wrote:
| Still cheaper to own. Maintenance with ebikes is not going
| to be very much. Throw lube on the chain every once in a
| while and have the bike shop do tires and brakes once every
| two years. Honestly you could buy a brand new $1200 ebike a
| year for the prices the services around me ask for their
| most basic plans which have mileage limits, and require a
| deposit anyhow. You can also turn around and sell your new
| ebike anytime, not much lock in or commitment there whereas
| I'm putting my blind faith in the fact that this particular
| subscription service will be easy to cancel (history says
| otherwise).
| thebean11 wrote:
| Where is "around you"? The economics in India might be a
| lot different (ie relatively more expensive scooters,
| cheaper labor)
| ipaddr wrote:
| You can buy an ebike for 1,000 or less. You can pay
| 99/month for typical ebike monthly rental.
| [deleted]
| ceeplusplus wrote:
| You're not getting a high quality ebike for $1200. I had
| a $600 e-scooter (Segway ES4) and by the time I hit 500+
| miles on it the screws were falling off, the external
| battery connection was corroding, and the bottom
| floorboard light connection had broken.
|
| I just checked and the Ninebot Max is $949 on Segway's
| website and that's got a smaller battery than most
| ebikes. And I'd be willing to be that that scooter would
| also break down just like mine.
| bduerst wrote:
| >Still cheaper to own.
|
| Bay Wheels is $159/year and about $2.00 a ride, meaning
| you would need to ride 520 times that year before it
| became cheaper to own. Also for regular bikes it's free
| each ride.
|
| That's ignoring that decent e-bikes are more expensive
| than $1200, the stress of having to lug around and
| securely park your property, the depreciation of the
| batteries, as well as any insurance & deductible costs
| you'll encounter for when (not if) it gets stolen.
|
| It's hands down better to be able to hop-on and -off
| wherever you want with an ebike than to deal with owning
| one in SF.
| [deleted]
| mkehrt wrote:
| The value subscriptions (bikes/ebikes for me in SF) is in not
| having to worry about it. I can bike to anywhere in the city
| and generally leave the bike there and walk or bus. Or I can
| do the reverse. I'm also not on the hook for maintenance.
|
| It's a very different thing than owning.
|
| Edit: I want to be clear that this is about the economics and
| ease of owning vs renting, not the particular prices. Lyft
| bikes have memberships+rental fees or just rental fees, and
| they can be pretty expensive, but so can buying an ebike.
| bduerst wrote:
| The biggest benefit of using the Bay Wheels subscription
| over owning is not having to worry about your e-bike being
| stolen. It's definitely worth it at the price point it's
| currently at.
|
| The only downside is that as people return to the bay, the
| e-bikes (and bikes) are going to become more and more
| scarce at docks.
| ipaddr wrote:
| You can take it anywhere and just leave it? Middle of the
| road? Under a bridge? Random backyard? That sounds useful
| but how often do you not need transportation back from
| where you came? If you leave the bike how easy is it to run
| into another bike someone randonly left?
| mkehrt wrote:
| I can leave an ebike on a random sidewalk, as long as it
| is not blocking the way, for a $2 fee, or at a dock, of
| which there are many, for free.
|
| How often do I do this? Probably once a week. Bike out to
| the beach, walk or bus back. Bike to the grocery store,
| lyft back. Go on a walk after work, not have to worry
| about getting home.
|
| How easy is it too find one? Pretty easy. There are docks
| everywhere, and an app that shows me where bikes are
| left.
| riquito wrote:
| It's not really up to discussion, that it works it's
| proven, it's a system in use in many cities. If you have
| enough bikes/cars, you will tend to have one available in
| an acceptable range of time and space. If you go to the
| outskirts of the city, you don't "release" the bike/car
| and pay more to have the guarantee to be able to go back.
| [deleted]
| phreeza wrote:
| Wait, you are on the hook for theft?? Just while you are
| logged in, or for what period of time?
| asdff wrote:
| You get billed a fee apparently:
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/cycling/comments/kon8hr/i_just_had
| _...
| crate_barre wrote:
| You almost need a scooter in these large third world mega
| cities. The streets are narrow as hell, they can't really
| handle cars. On the flip side. Cars are stuck in traffic all
| day and rarely get to cruising speeds without making a left
| turn into another traffic jam. Scooters let you move around in
| that clusterfuck and no car is moving fast enough to kill you.
| Good luck staying safe in scooter in America though.
| [deleted]
| tomcam wrote:
| > large third world mega cities.
|
| But enough about Los Angeles
| Hypocritelefty wrote:
| blamazon wrote:
| In this 2 minute video demonstrating a Gogoro swap the rider
| goes from opening their seat to having a fresh battery and
| ready to ride in about 50 seconds:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W34k0nrrDQA
| agumonkey wrote:
| Do you know what causes the slight wait before getting fresh
| batteries ? some checks ?
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| Probably some sort of authentication and status checks of
| the inserted batteries.
| abraxas wrote:
| The batteries don't look all that big. Do you know what the
| range is on a fresh pair?
| KerrickStaley wrote:
| I would typically plan for 60 km between swaps, which
| includes a healthy error margin (I owned a Gogoro 2+ when I
| lived in Taiwan a year ago). Gogoro advertises 110 km but
| that is at 25 kph which is unrealistically slow.
|
| 60 km actually goes quite far in Taiwan, which isn't a very
| big place compared to eg the United States. Gogoro has an
| extensive network and you only range limited in rural areas
| like the east coast or the central mountains.
| 14 wrote:
| I wonder how long before someone comes up with a fake battery
| pack that looks identical and registers as having a higher
| battery power then it actually does and has fewer cells
| internally so they can take the real higher power more cells
| genuine battery and leave behind a fake on that barely works.
| Like fake memory cards you can get from wish.com that state
| they have much higher memory then what they actually have.
| asdfasgasdgasdg wrote:
| You're not going to get much repeat business if you hand
| out crappy batteries. It seems like incentives are decently
| well-aligned here.
|
| I guess you might be able to scam the rechargers themselves
| if you want to "return" a knock off. But if I were them I
| would put tamper resistant asset tags on my batteries and
| ensure that whatever battery im taking back is the same as
| the one I handed out.
| Gigachad wrote:
| It's the same as any kind of theft really. You probably get
| away with it to start but eventually the loss becomes great
| enough that the company pays attention and starts tracking
| it down. And if you have been doing this on a large scale
| you could be looking at serious criminal theft.
| markdown wrote:
| About as long as it would take for Gogoro to put a camera
| on their battery kiosks.
| imhoguy wrote:
| And get life ban for the subscription. I think these
| batteries are properly sealed and their ROI is pretty
| quick. Much more benefit is from that rapid electricity
| transfer/exchange.
| stingrae wrote:
| This is relatively straight forward to prevent with signed
| certificates stored on a secure coprocessor.
| silvestrov wrote:
| Each battery can have a serial number and an embedded ARM
| chip and the charger be connected to the internet.
|
| So the central server will reject the battery if it can't
| authenticate with the proper RSA private key, or that key
| is already online somewhere else.
|
| Just like creditcards with chips are validated each time.
| phh wrote:
| I uh, don't see the point?
|
| You have the charging electronics which will tell you
| very quickly when a battery is dead, and you know which
| subscriber gave you the faulty battery. Sure faulty
| batteries can happen naturally (and accidentally), two
| faulty batteries though should be statistically enough to
| trigger an investigation from the company.
| munk-a wrote:
| I think the idea is that the battery reports voltage like
| a mostly charged normal battery for just long enough for
| you to leave the scene with a good battery.
|
| Ideally this would be coupled with lax device receipt
| keeping so while the company could tell that one of these
| thousand customers that used the kiosk that day returned
| the faulty battery it'd be hard to pinpoint a specific
| wrong doer.
|
| That said, it feels like the margins on this would be low
| enough to make it not worth the effort.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Finally, an edge case where I would support hardware DRM
| for cryptographic attestation purposes.
| bduerst wrote:
| You don't even need to go that far with the on-board
| hardware. Just track battery exchange history with
| charging pattern data, and identify offenders.
|
| Bad actors can spoof the battery charge reader, but it's
| much harder to spoof the juice out of the charger.
| ffhhj wrote:
| Battery tracking leads to ads. Ads lead to the dark
| patterns of the force.
| neurostimulant wrote:
| Thankfully someone with such skill will be very unlikely to
| commit petty theft like this when there are more profitable
| endeavors to pursue with their skill.
| cyberbanjo wrote:
| No way! Just because you're skillful doesn't mean you're
| property utilized, or even (easily) utilizable, due to
| other issues. I met plenty handy unemployed without
| steady housing.
| ankraft wrote:
| We have several escooter services in The Netherlands (GO
| Sharing, Check, felyx, etc.) which are operating in the larger
| city's. It's all subscription based and not that expensive
| comparing to owning a scooter with these current gas prices.
|
| The batteries are swapped at location and transported to and
| from the nearest chargestation. You have to take a photo when
| entering and leaving the scooter through the app. An
| investigation will be started by the issuer when a scooter got
| damaged. The last driver will not be responsible if it can't be
| proved that the driver did the damage.
| scalablenotions wrote:
| I've thought for a long time that battery swapping is the only
| way to go for all electric vehicles. A subscription or pay-as-
| you-go service for battery changing is practical and would make
| battery replacements costing tens of thousands of dollars a non-
| thing. I know some batteries are heavy, but if stations can
| provide petroleum pumps, then they can provide mechanized battery
| exchange infrastructure, right? Bring on the ISO standards for
| vehicle batteries!
|
| Does anyone have any reason why this wouldn't work? Perhaps parts
| being stolen from the rental batteries before they're returned or
| some such?
| stetrain wrote:
| You add more weight by making the pack easily removable, and
| you need battery standardization.
|
| If every brand or every model has a different pack size, then
| swap stations aren't very scalable.
|
| If you standardize pack sizes, then some cars will have less
| range than they could, given that they could fit a larger pack.
|
| It makes a lot of sense for the relatively small, light, and
| inexpensive scooters. The packs can be hand carried, and
| different vehicles can just have slots one, two, or three packs
| as needed.
|
| You aren't trying to squeeze 300-400 miles out of a scooter by
| packing every inch of the frame with batteries. "Good enough"
| is perfectly fine for urban scooters.
|
| And I think the reality is that it just won't be economically
| viable for large cars. We are quickly reaching the point where
| the battery packs will last the lifetime of the car, and
| roadtrip charging stops are falling under 20 minutes.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Having worked around propane cylinders a standardized battery
| pack sure seems like a no-brainer to me. It adds value to the
| EV because the useful lifetime is no coupled less closely to
| the lifetime of the battery pack.
|
| Advances in battery chemistry and charging could be rolled-out
| across "legacy" fleets of EVs by upgrading the charging
| stations and batteries in circulation. The EVs themselves
| remain unchanged.
|
| I feel like planned obsolescence is a "feature" of current
| EV's, in part by integrating the battery pack so deeply into
| the design. There would weight/efficiency trade-offs in
| standardizing on a battery pack but it's not like there isn't
| value returned by way of faster "recharges", increased service
| lifetime of the EV, and the potential to take advantage of new
| battery/charging technology.
|
| It also seems like rapid battery change stations would be a
| great "pivot" for existing gas stations and truck stops, and
| something they could move into slowly (convert a portion of
| their dispensers over to battery change rigs as the Customer
| base shifts from ICE to EV).
| lkxijlewlf wrote:
| I recall, oh maybe 15 or so years ago, there was an, I believe,
| Israeli inventor who proposed doing this for cars. Not sure what
| happened to it, but I think that's something that should be
| looked into more. I know, most auto OEMs like to build the car
| around the battery (for structural soundness), but if I could
| just pull in and have my battery swapped while on a road trip,
| that would be amazing.
| ihumanable wrote:
| I believe you are remembering the same thing I'm remembering,
| it was called BetterPlace
|
| Here's a TED Talk about it from 2009
| https://www.ted.com/talks/shai_agassi_a_new_ecosystem_for_el...
|
| They went bankrupt in 2013
| more_corn wrote:
| Do you like how that little thing in the bottom corner flips
| constantly? You don't find it distracting at all do you? The
| person who did that should be shot.
| [deleted]
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Back when electric vehicles were the most popular automobile,
| battery changes were used to keep electric trucks and taxis on
| the road longer. Some companies were around 20 years just doing
| electric vehicle battery changes and service. This was called
| Power-as-a-Service, or PaaS.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicl...
| heavenlyblue wrote:
| > Some battery developers are also opposed to standardizing power
| packs anytime soon because the technology is evolving rapidly and
| India could switch to the more efficient and environmentally
| friendly sodium-ion batteries from the lithium-ion ones favored
| by e-rickshaw makers.
|
| I do not think that is true. This is what all of them say
| whenever standardisation comes into the argument. However
| obviously they use that to lock the customers in.
| myself248 wrote:
| That makes no sense. With new battery tech, it's typically the
| chargers that absorb the complexity, the load is just a load.
|
| So the scooters should be able to handle the new batteries just
| fine, and it would be on the network operator to upgrade the
| charging kiosks accordingly. It'd be much easier to rolling-
| upgrade batteries in a swappable fleet than to call fixed-
| battery scooters into the shop and swap each one out, as well.
| L_Rahman wrote:
| As the parent says, arguments like these are always a scheme
| to lock customers into proprietary standards. It's
| frustrating that companies still think they can get away with
| this.
| manquer wrote:
| Standardization is not in chemistry or the tech itself. It is
| in voltage/amps and the physical dimensions we already do
| this with AA and AAA batteries.
| manquer wrote:
| That is where the government/standards bodies are important. It
| is in everyone's collective benefit to standardize as the whole
| market will expand.
|
| As quoted in the article this piece is what the finance
| minister highlighted in her budget speech last month as being
| important to get in place.
| asdff wrote:
| This is the game changer that could turn cities into EV dominated
| spaces. Imagine if every convenience store had a rack of these
| out front. It would be even faster to get a charged EV than even
| to gas up an ICE car at the pump.
|
| These are the things that start becoming possible if we let our
| idea of an EV move beyond a 4000lb automobile to move your maybe
| 200lb self. You would have to use a technician to service a car
| sized EV and swap out the batteries even if they dropped right
| out easily, just due to the to weight of them. An entire
| infrastructure that would have to be built just to move around
| 3800 unnecessary lbs anytime you wanted to go anywhere at all.
| Meanwhile, if people were merely happy with something the size of
| an e scooter, converting the population to EVs starts getting a
| lot simpler just in terms of the physics of it all, and simple
| low hanging fruit innovations like this are possible.
| nomel wrote:
| > These are the things that start becoming possible if we let
| our idea of an EV move beyond a 4000lb automobile to move your
| maybe 200lb self.
|
| I see you live in an area with _significantly_ more days of
| good weather than bad!
| a9h74j wrote:
| The Worldwatch Institute regularly put out 80-page studies in
| the 1980s. Disappointingly, they published one on _The Future
| of the Bicycle_ which never once mentioned the word 'rain'.
|
| FWIW, the Aptera three-wheel EV design gets IIRC 10X better
| distance/kWhr than most EVs, and has a US classification as a
| motorcycle.
| oblio wrote:
| Agreed!
|
| It's impossible to use anything but cars in places with bad
| weather. Science has proved it!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| Or we could have, you know, buses and trams and metros? Riding
| a scooter in a car designed city sucks :-/
| oblio wrote:
| Nah, you'll just get tunnels were autonomous cars can be
| stuck in traffic jams, instead.
| foolfoolz wrote:
| this idea raised $850M and failed
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company)
| scythe wrote:
| Those aren't scooters, they're cars -- and they showed up
| before Panasonic/Tesla attacked the battery-cost problem with
| roughly 100x as much capital.
| [deleted]
| nradov wrote:
| Tesla also tried battery swapping several years ago but
| seems to have given up.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| Those are also cars.
| bduerst wrote:
| That's because Tesla owners have disposable income and
| tend to charge in suburban or rural homes. Swapping is
| aimed more at lower-income segments or
| delivery/maintenance services in urban areas.
| hristov wrote:
| Unfortunately this is not it. The game changer will be when
| they start closing off large parts of cities to cars and
| limiting them to small, slow and safe golf cart/scooter/bike
| type vehicles. Everything else will fall into place very
| quickly afterwards.
|
| We have the technology, we need the political will. These
| scooters are nice but few people will brave riding them in a
| busy American street, not to even mention a highway.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > the political will
|
| Which is another way of saying 'willing voters.' Who all own
| cars already, for the most part. And rarely vote to reduce
| their own quality of life even if there is a possibility that
| in the longer run it will be higher.
| schnevets wrote:
| and are completely oblivious to the costs of their way of
| life (and certainly won't listen to a politician who
| mentions the existence of such cost)
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Or they believe the costs are worth it. Trying to
| convince people to support extraordinary lifestyle
| changes requires extraordinary evidence that the net
| result will be positive.
| omgitsabird wrote:
| How will that ever happen when delivery, moving,
| construction, etc are essential parts of the economy for
| "large parts of cities"?
| wffurr wrote:
| None of which requires unrestricted access for personal
| cars or motor vehicles.
| pjerem wrote:
| You can totally ban individual cars while allowing
| delivery, moving, construction, emergencies, public
| transport ...
|
| A lot of city centers in Europe have been closed to cars
| during the last decades but special trafic is still
| allowed.
|
| It just works and it's better for everybody.
|
| And now I hope this will be extended outside of city
| centers.
| omgitsabird wrote:
| Sure, but how does this system work? Especially with
| newer services, like ride sharing, where people use
| personal vehicles to transport people within these areas?
| oblio wrote:
| It doesn't work, nobody ever thought of it.
|
| RIP Europe, you will be sorely missed.
|
| On a more serious note, ride sharing services are
| considered as taxis which are considered public transport
| and public transport is generally allowed at least on
| designated roads.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| You could require them to register as commercial
| vehicles. You can enforce using physical barriers or
| punishing fines/use fees for people that don't enter the
| area with a fare. Taxis can only go in certain parts of
| airports, rideshares have designated pickup zones, it
| seems to work fine. Or you just say that one of the
| downsides of being a part time driver that isn't part of
| a regulated fleet is that you don't get to congest
| downtown areas.
|
| In Granada Spain I noticed that certain parts of the old
| city had physical barriers that could only be passed by a
| vehicle with the right NFC pass. Generally taxis, busses,
| and a few private cars that seemed to belong to people
| with property in the area. It made it very pleasant to
| walk around the old streets without having to suck down
| exhaust fumes of idling cars.
|
| As you noted, Uber is a newer service, plenty of people
| happily lived their lives before it existed.
| bduerst wrote:
| Same way you designate loading/passenger zone parking or
| bus/taxi only lanes for large parts of cities.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| The USA already has a NEV standard (25mph top speed, some
| look like small cars, others more like golf carts). All it
| would take to make them viable is more streets with 25mph
| speed limits.
|
| This makes roads safer for bikes and scooters, but the NEV
| gives a car-like option for someone who can't (or won't) ride
| a bike.
|
| Even a NEV-plus standard that allows up to 35mph would be an
| improvement, that would already cover almost all of my
| commute.
| hristov wrote:
| The NEV standard would be great if people followed speed
| limits. Unfortunately, the fact that it is 25 mph it does
| not mean people will drive anywhere close to that. But it
| is a good start.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| There's a pretty easy fix for that... speed cameras.
| xmprt wrote:
| Even easier fix for that which is much cheaper to
| enforce... narrower roads, raised crosswalks, separated
| bike lanes. Cars will naturally drive slower on those
| roads and they are more friendly to other modalities.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| The argument against strict traffic calming is always
| "How will an emergency vehicle get through?"
|
| There are some solutions that can slow cars but still
| allow emergency vehicles through, but they aren't
| perfect, and still need sign off from the fire
| department. And that signoff can be hard to get, years
| ago, my neighborhood wanted to install speed humps to
| slow traffic -- the fire department vetoed it since the
| road was the main access from the neighhood firestation.
| oblio wrote:
| You can actually speed over speed bumps, it's just
| uncomfortable...
|
| The main thing is: how bad are speed bumps for vehicle
| maintenance, really? Fire trucks, for example, only need
| to go full throttle when they leave the fire station.
|
| When they come back they can just go over the speed bump
| slowly, like everyone else.
|
| Why would going over 1 speed bump every bunch of days be
| such a major issue? Does that mean that a fire truck
| going over a pothole will do a barrel roll? :-p
| jeofken wrote:
| Anyone from NL here? How does that work there?
| agumonkey wrote:
| Another is the complexity of city traffic, the more red
| lights, the more people are frustrated and will try to
| push faster. When you ensure fluid flow, 25mph is fast
| enough to go where you want without noticing it, if
| things are smooth the driver might even enjoy the scene
| instead of trying to 'get before the green light is
| over'.
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| I don't know where I read this, but narrow streets cause
| people to slow down too. Nearby my home is a very roomy
| 30mph 5-lane road where the flow of traffic is usually
| 45mph. Plenty of room to speed up!
| bduerst wrote:
| Why can't it be both? Easy-access technology can be a first
| step to changing political mindsets.
| amazd wrote:
| Why hasn't Tesla gotten into this sort of battery swap tech for
| their own cars yet?
| patall wrote:
| I am actually more wondering why we do not see battery
| trailers. Imagine a two wheel, 500 lbs trailer that you pull
| for the next 30 miles between two 1 minute stops on the highway
| that recharges your cars battery within those 30 miles. I know
| there are prototypes, but something seems to stop it from
| becoming large scale. Inefficient? To much overhead? Can normal
| drivers not be trusted with a 500 lbs trailer? I would like to
| know...
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Too much overhead and DC fast charger networks are already
| approaching parity with the speed you could make that work.
| Trailers add another set of wheels to the ground, too, which
| is a failure point. Might as well just put it on the roof or
| something instead.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| I don't think there'd be much actual time savings. Every time
| I get off the highway to get gas (which means slowing down to
| exit, stopping at the bottom on the exit ramp, driving to the
| gas station, pumping gas, getting back on the highway, etc),
| it ends up being close to a 15 minute stop. I'd be surprised
| if you can pull off, hook up a battery trailer (and pay for
| it), then get back on the highway in a few minutes.
|
| Might as well just stop in for a 20 minute charge at a DC
| fast charger, many cars can do an 80% charge in 20 minutes.
| JackMcMack wrote:
| This actually sounds doable if the battery charging trailer
| is self driving (and self docking). You would lose only
| minimal time slowing down for the docking/undocking. Easier
| to test on select pieces of highway with predictable self
| driving conditions. And the highway gives you space and
| time for charging, when you need it most for long trips.
| cheeze wrote:
| Because they would need to announce it first, spend 10 years
| talking about how it's right around the corner but never
| delivering, and then maybe they could deliver it.
|
| We'll see these battery swaps right after FSD actually becomes
| L3.
| skolos wrote:
| They did try it in 2013, but abandoned the idea:
| https://www.tesla.com/videos/battery-swap-event
| kevlened wrote:
| According to "Ludicrous: The Unvarnished Story of Tesla
| Motors", it may not have been abandoned. Instead, the feature
| may have never been planned:
|
| "In 2013, California revised its Zero Emissions Vehicle
| credit system so that long-range ZEVs that were able to
| charge 80% in under 15 minutes earned almost twice as many
| credits as those that didn't. Overnight, Tesla's 85 kWh Model
| S went from earning four credits per vehicle to seven.
| Moreover, to earn this dramatic increase in credits, Tesla
| needed to prove to CARB that such rapid refueling events were
| possible. By demonstrating battery swap on just one vehicle,
| Tesla nearly doubled the ZEV credits earned by its entire
| fleet even if none of them actually used the swap
| capability."
| asdff wrote:
| The scale. Tesla batteries are like 900 pounds. You now have to
| make a machine that can move 900 pounds of electronic hardware
| at mass scale. Meanwhile, if your machine only needs maybe
| 20lbs of batteries, suddenly that machine can be your user, and
| the infrastructure problem got a lot simpler and cheaper to
| solve. I have no clue why tesla isn't considering a low cost,
| <$500 EV, be it scooter or bike. I think their brand name and a
| price point that makes it easy for people currently on the
| sidelines to buy in would easily be enough to dominate this
| market overnight. At this point is just these companies from
| china you get from sketchy amazon sellers. I don't see schwinn
| ebikes when I drive around, they are too costly, I just see
| these cheapo foldable amazon ones that go by 50 different
| names, which I think is telling where the latent demand really
| lies (not in the saturated luxury ebike/escooter market which
| doesn't seem to move much product).
| paxys wrote:
| They tried and failed already. Lots of reasons why this
| wouldn't work with cars:
|
| - The battery is expensive and makes up a large chunk of value
| of the car itself. Being able to swap out a dying years-old
| battery for a fresh new one doesn't make sense.
|
| - Swapping an electric car's battery is time consuming and
| requires specialized equipment and labor.
|
| - The real utility for battery swaps for cars isn't in the
| middle of the city but in remote highway stops, where setting
| up such stations isn't feasible.
| skolos wrote:
| It does work: NIO does it (they have 700 battery swap
| stations already). CATL also announced that they will produce
| swappable car batteries.
|
| I, myself, don't see how this can be more competitive than
| superchargers. But I do see that some customers would like to
| have this option.
| jfengel wrote:
| Because Tesla knows that the vast majority of people will never
| need it.
|
| Most people use their cars for well under 100 miles per day.
| With a battery-electric car, you can charge it at home. You
| never go to a station for anything -- not fuel, not fast-
| charging, not battery swapping. You come home, plug in, and get
| on with your life.
|
| People will make a few long trips per year, and those cases are
| well handled by the supercharger network. It doesn't take long,
| and corresponds to down-time that most drivers should be taking
| anyway.
|
| There is nothing for them to gain by a massive redesign that
| would gain most users little to nothing. Instead, they take the
| stable battery pack and design around it, even making it a
| structural part of the vehicle to save weight.
|
| Replaceable battery packs for cars solve a non-problem. People
| who would want them would do better purchasing a gasoline car,
| which are readily available and will remain so for quite some
| time.
| dvirsky wrote:
| > you can charge it at home
|
| Most people in most big cities don't have private parking
| they can equip with a charger, and they struggle to even find
| parking at all. You'd have to make every single parking space
| in a big city a charger to make this approach scale.
| jfengel wrote:
| Most people in big cities don't have cars. Most of the cars
| in a city are commuters, who go home every night to the
| burbs. It's the same reason cities have relatively few gas
| stations.
|
| People who insist on having cars in cities will either find
| places to charge, continue to own gas cars, or switch to
| ride sharing plus public transport. It is not a case for
| Tesla to change their entire design.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > Most people in most big cities
|
| ... should use fast chargers, if they have no 'at home'
| option.
|
| Most people in the US live in single family detached homes
| and can get enough juice from a 120V outlet to meet their
| daily driving needs.
| dvirsky wrote:
| Most of the world is not the US. And fast charging of ~1
| hour or even 25 minutes is an inconvenience that would
| make people choose a non EV.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| We're not far from 15 minute charge times (and in some
| regards already there). That's fast enough.
| throw_nbvc1234 wrote:
| > It doesn't take long
|
| Is there public data about how big the network would need to
| be if 90-100% of long distance travel is switched from 5 min
| gas station stops to super charging; both in terms of
| throughput and latency? And/or studies of (probably rare)
| mass transit events that may or may not be expected; thinking
| natural disasters and large events away from population
| centers like burning man or Coachella.
| lkbm wrote:
| > Because Tesla knows that the vast majority of people will
| never need it.
|
| I don't know what portion of US drivers park either on the
| street or in a parking garage, but I'm pretty sure it''s tens
| of millions of people. Driveways pretty much don't exist in
| my neighborhood. It's all parking garages and street parking.
|
| Lining every parking garage and neighborhood street with
| dozens of chargers may be the optimal solution, but I'm
| skeptical.
| avianlyric wrote:
| I think people overthink how complicated EV chargers are
| (specifically slow chargers). At they're core, they're just
| a normal 3-pin plug with a fancy computer controlled
| switch. All of the heavy lifting is done by the car, it has
| the inverter, the battery controller, and all the
| monitoring equipment.
|
| All the charger does is tell the car how much power it's
| allowed to use, authenticates the car, and flicks the
| switch on at the command of the car. The charger also has a
| cheap-as-chips current transformer so it can make sure the
| car doesn't consumer more power than it allowed, and will
| flick the switch off if the car misbehaves. The car is
| responsible for everything else.
|
| So at the end of the day, and on street slower charger is a
| metal post with a plug on the outside, and a Raspberry Pi
| and relay inside. They can, and will eventually be, dirt
| cheap to manufacture. As for power cables, well, and can
| just slice into the cable already powering houses and
| lampposts.
| aqme28 wrote:
| You see this in New York a lot too. The most popular delivery
| bikes use a swappable battery.
| asdff wrote:
| Can you swap them at the store like your empty propane tank
| though?
| exabrial wrote:
| This is why hydrogen, while being less efficient that battery-
| electric, stands a chance. Convenience of 'filling up' in a
| minute is the killer feature of hydrogen, regardless if it's 50%
| as efficient as battery-electric. When said power is coming from
| a nuclear reactor, who cares?
| TillE wrote:
| I remember hydrogen fuel cells getting major hype over 20 years
| ago, quite specifically in the year 2001. It probably started
| earlier than that.
|
| Since then, there's been approximately zilch in terms of
| commercial applications, despite numerous drawbacks inherent to
| lithium ion batteries. I'd bet on some novel alternative
| battery technology over hydrogen.
| pengaru wrote:
| This is the way, but I have serious concerns when it comes to
| abuse as surveillance tools. I'd want such vehicles to
| incorporate something of a Faraday cage around the battery
| module. The thing is inherently always powered and could easily
| become a mechanism for tracking locations and travel speeds real-
| time.
| caymanjim wrote:
| This isn't going to happen because almost no one would be
| worried about it and there would be a cost that only benefitted
| a microscopic fraction of concerned people. It also feels
| completely arbitrary; for all you know, there are tracking
| devices in everything you own. It's not like you can really
| tell. There could be passive tracking devices in every consumer
| device.
| kingkawn wrote:
| Now for cars/trucks and we're in good shape
| kujin88 wrote:
| Not just delivery drivers, this is essential for everyone in
| India that uses a two-wheeler. India has always been known for
| its notorious costs of Petroleum and its unaffordability to
| anyone other than the rich.
|
| We need the EV transformation to make sure people are more
| economically sustainable. A handsome side-effect of it would be
| the dramatic drop in air pollution given the population density
| in India
| jefurii wrote:
| > A lot of drivers in China, the world's biggest EV market, live
| in apartment blocks and so don't necessarily have personal
| charging outlets.
|
| As an apartment dweller this makes so much sense.
| russellbeattie wrote:
| Every single person who's ever put batteries in the back of some
| consumer electronics device immediately thinks, "Why don't they
| just make it so you can swap batteries in EVs?" I was definitely
| no different.
|
| I now own a few eBikes including a DIY conversion, a Sur Ron dirt
| bike and an Onyx emoto. The batteries are just so insanely
| compact and heavy, it's surreal. The Onyx has a removable
| 72v/48ah extended range battery which weighs 37lbs (17kg) [1],
| similar to the weight of the swappable batteries in the article.
| Let me tell you, that may not seem like a lot of weight, but it
| really is and it's * _just so dense!*_ It 's the equivalent of
| over 4 gallons of milk contained in two shoe boxes.
|
| Seriously, every time I have to move - or should I say
| "manhandle" - the batteries in any of the bikes, I audibly groan
| and make sure to lift with my legs. The batteries are all
| different shapes, sizes and in various boxes and all shockingly
| heavy for their size. The sharp edges of the Onyx battery box is
| a true hazard as its momentum will give your thigh a nice bruise
| should you swing it, or your car a nice dent.
|
| Anyways, I'm sharing all this to say: Batteries are heavy af.
| Really. As good as a solution this is for scooters, don't expect
| it to go much more beyond that. There won't be swappable
| batteries on your big Zero or Livewire any time soon.
|
| 1.
| https://www.onyxmotorbikes.com/collections/parts/products/rc...
| animal_spirits wrote:
| That's a genius idea, and could probably work for any mode of
| transportation. Scooters, bicycles, cars, trucks.
| sebastianconcpt wrote:
| Bureaucrats of countries that basically depend only in selling
| gas, are watching in panic or?
| supernova87a wrote:
| Given that it will still take 30-40 years for the bulk of
| gasoline consuming fleets to expire/turnover, this is
| ironically a problem that I bet such oil plutocrats are
| thinking they'll shift the burden to their business-inheriting
| children to deal with.
| yodelshady wrote:
| More practical zero-emission scooters in India could be, as I
| understand it, quite something. I complain enough about exhaust
| fumes in Western cities.
| endisneigh wrote:
| I remember in 2013 electric skateboards were all of the rage. I
| felt like a pariah with an electric scooter. I told people they
| were the future because skateboards are just too dangerous imo.
|
| I'm glad to see this happen.
|
| What I want now is an electric assist scooter, where then battery
| is smaller and it simply makes your manual pushes far stronger.
|
| I'm no electric engineer, but I think there's an opportunity
| here. If you can minimize the resistance added by adding an
| electric motor you might be able to really decrease the weight of
| the scooter if it only propels you on push.
| Johnny555 wrote:
| Are scooters significantly safer? (I'm assuming you mean the
| small 2 wheeled scooter that looks a bit like a skateboard with
| a steering post, not a vespa style "mini motorcycle" scooter
| which is the scooter referenced in this article).
|
| I don't know how to clearly differentiate between the two types
| of scooter when talking about them.
| endisneigh wrote:
| I strongly believe the addition of the handlebars makes a
| scooter much safer to use for an average person compared to
| an electric skate or longboard. I say this as someone who has
| owned all three.
|
| Best example of this is braking. Most electric longboards
| accelerate and decelerate as fast or faster than a scooter.
| However the laws of motion still apply. Without something to
| hold onto you have to actually anticipate your deceleration
| and lean back when decelerating - very unintuitive.
|
| When I had an electric longboard I let several people use it
| and saw several people fall over (fortunately they fell on
| their feet)
| Johnny555 wrote:
| It just seems that the narrow 3" wheels commonly seen on
| scooters are way too sensitive to road imperfections. I've
| seen some with oversized 6" or so wheels that are wider
| like a mountain bike tire, those seem safer.
|
| I miss eBikes, which seem to have been pretty much replaced
| by eScooters, at least in my community.
| H1Supreme wrote:
| Totally agree. Those wheels are way to small at top
| speed. You're just asking to get a stone jammed in there.
| jayrot wrote:
| I suppose you could get away with a slightly smaller motor if
| you don't need super torque, but it's the battery that accounts
| for a huge amount of weight.
| jdjdjdjdjd wrote:
| I think you are talking about a different kind of scooter than
| the article.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Haha - I actually read the article but was in reader mode but
| didn't see the picture haha.
|
| Strangely the article could apply to a traditional standing
| scooter as well. What a coincidence.
|
| I did think the 50 mile range was a bit overzealous - shoulda
| known.
| Melatonic wrote:
| What would be really amazing is if we all leased the batteries
| but owned our vehicles (whether its scooters, cars, etc) AND
| there were super fast quickswap stations built into the road
| itself. Imagine if pulled up to a red stop light and the light
| knew it was going to be red for the next 30 seconds at least -
| your vehicle could communicate with some type of in-road
| underground battery swap station and then at the press of a
| button it could quickly reach up, remove your existing battery,
| and replace it with a fully charged one.
|
| Larger vehicles could even have multiple batteries - one quick
| swap one on the bottom and then another one elsewhere in the
| vehicle that was a bit more work to swap - this way you could
| mainly use and stress the swap battery and ideally keep swapping
| it out as needed on a road trip but worst case you still have a
| large energy reserve to fall back to.
| ihumanable wrote:
| I remember watching a TED Talk in 2009 that had a pretty
| similar idea
| https://www.ted.com/talks/shai_agassi_a_new_ecosystem_for_el...
|
| Seems like they went bankrupt though in 2013
| rootusrootus wrote:
| That sounds like a huge amount of infrastructure work on
| something that even in the best case will be relatively prone
| to failure. Meanwhile, we already have grid connections all
| over the place and DC fast charging is quickly approaching fast
| enough. For those who even have to use it, the rest just charge
| at home and none of these contraptions would improve their
| experience.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| Have you lived in a multifamily building in a city? Or even
| in a single-family home with only street parking? It's not
| like we all have a garage at home to park and charge a
| vehicle. Some do, but I would estimate the vast majority in
| my city do not.
|
| I'm not saying we need in-street contraptions like GP
| described, but "just charge at home" doesn't cut it for a lot
| of people.
|
| I like the kiosks mentioned in the article, those seem pretty
| convenient for city-dwellers.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| The flip side of that is that the group you described is
| the one most likely to not need to charge every day. My
| experience was that 200 miles was a pretty reasonable
| amount for a full week. If I'm honest, most weeks I'm well
| under 100 miles.
|
| With fast chargers a weekly grocery trip or a charger near
| the office would probably satisfy most needs. Tesla claims
| that 15 mins. yields a 200 mile range. My gas hog
| Pathfinder gets about 250 miles between fillups that last
| about 10 minutes (bathroom and snack breaks when I'm on a
| road trip). It seems that range anxiety is kind of
| overkill. To be honest I'm surprised that coffee shops, and
| fast service restaurants haven't been installing chargers.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| In the US, more than half of everyone lives in a single
| family detached house. So perhaps half the population
| doesn't have a major hurdle to at-home charging currently.
|
| For the rest, a 300 mile EV with once-a-week fast charging
| while they grocery shop is entirely viable. Yes we need to
| continue building out the infrastructure, but since your
| comparison is with a battery swap solution that doesn't
| currently exist in _any_ form, we 're already way ahead on
| that.
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| >Imagine if pulled up to a red stop light and the light knew it
| was going to be red for the next 30 seconds at least - your
| vehicle could communicate with some type of in-road underground
| battery swap station and then at the press of a button it could
| quickly reach up, remove your existing battery, and replace it
| with a fully charged one.
|
| If we had the technology and logistics to build an entire
| underground battery swapping facility at every major
| intersection, I'm sure we'd have moved past cars completely!
| momirlan wrote:
| you live in a country without snow, right ?
| kurthr wrote:
| Battery wear is a complex thing and it's not trivial to control
| or test. You could easily trade in an excellent battery and
| receive one that had 50% rated capacity. If you plan to wear
| them out very quickly, not to need the full capacity, and pay
| well above actual cost for the convenience of swapping, then it
| could work.
|
| Otherwise, you will be ripped off by the better informed
| charging station that hands out only their worst batteries, and
| sells the best trade-ins as new.
| jcims wrote:
| Yeah, I think it's clear that you would have to buy the cars
| off the lot with no battery included.
| 2fast4you wrote:
| What if we took batteries out of commission after X cycles?
|
| There would need to be regulation on it. I wouldn't trust my
| manufacturer or charging network not to rip me off if they
| had the chance.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| A very ignorant question: in order to charge faster, why can't we
| just charge 200 little batteries in parallel and then operate
| them in series?
| itake wrote:
| AFAIK, that is basically how batteries work. A battery is
| comprised of "cells".
| NathanielK wrote:
| Some batteries like deWalts's flexvolt system do allow
| rearranging the cells. They go full series so you can run
| efficient 60V tools off them, but swith to partly parallel to
| charge on a standard 20V charger.
| nine_k wrote:
| You can! Two limitations.
|
| (1) Heat dissipation. You're charging the battery with a much
| higher current than the discharge current. Even if you can push
| a coolant through the battery at the charging time, it adds
| serious thermal loads, and associated mechanical loads, to it.
|
| (2) Power at the charging point. You're pushing dozens or even
| hundreds of kilowatts, this takes both high voltage _and_ high
| currents. Cables and connectors aside, the particular charging
| place just needs a pretty beefy cable from the electric mains.
| A typical cable going to a single-family house has a 20-30 kW
| limit. Now imagine a station with 10 charging points.
| hgomersall wrote:
| From my limited understanding, the rate you can get charge into
| a battery is proportional to its capacity. You see this in the
| size normalised charge rating that batteries have, like 1C
| means it takes 1 hour to charge and 4C means it takes 15
| minutes. Adding more batteries in parallel is much the same.
| NathanielK wrote:
| Batteries have "C" rating which is how many times you can
| charge or discharge them in an hour. This magic number is
| closely linked to battery chemistry. A "6C" battery can be
| charged in 10 minutes as long as you have the power, while a
| 10C battery can charge in 6 minutes. You're right that
| sometimes charging speed is limited by the available power.
| Don't expect to fast charge a 130kWh Tesla at a 45kW charger or
| charge a 100Wh laptop on a 18W cellphone charger. In the case
| of these scooter batteries, you are mostly limited by the
| batteries C rating. Even if you watercooled them to stay at a
| happy temperature, you can only push the chemistry so much.
|
| Maybe if they switched to a different chemistry like Lithium
| Titanate they could chaemrge quicker. For now it is easier to
| use LiFePo batteries and just swap them out.
| avianlyric wrote:
| Because the time taken to charge 200 little batteries in
| parallel is the same as it is to charge them in series.
|
| Smaller batteries are capable of delivering less current, but
| also only capable at charging at lower currents. So you can't
| charge the individual cells in a battery any faster than the
| battery as a whole.
|
| If you tried to take a single little cell, and charge it at
| power level of an entire EV battery, all you'll get is a small
| explosion and a fire. If you take one of the individual cells
| out of a Tesla, it's not much bigger than a AA battery. The
| charging cable of a super charger is much thicker than a AA
| battery, and made out of a substantial better conductor than a
| battery. Just imagine what would happen if you took a battery
| the size of a AA cell, and plugged it straight into that cable,
| running at 480V and pushing almost a thousand amps. They peak
| at 250kW, about 50 households of power usage. Your little
| battery won't stand a chance.
| [deleted]
| rdxm wrote:
| unchocked wrote:
| Another reminder of how much less overhead human-scaled systems
| require.
|
| In this case, the battery swapping robot is you.
| jscott0918 wrote:
| I tried to reply to another comment that was since deleted. It
| said something along the lines of: >I don't get why Tesla would
| kill their battery-swapping while they are tackling other Hard
| Problems.
|
| The practicality of battery swapping decreases exponentially as
| size and weight scale. The cost of building a battery swapping
| network for western-car-sized battery systems, even once
| solving the engineering elements (which are manageable), are
| likely a non-starter. Especially if the other principle
| technology rival is fast-charging stations.
|
| How much added convenience is required to justify huge
| mechanical systems with many wear components and large
| maintenance costs over replacing a few charging cables every X
| months? Lots.
| jonsen wrote:
| The batteri should go in a trailer. Swap the trailer. The car
| itself could be smaller. Luggage could go on the trailer.
| bduerst wrote:
| Trailers are non-starters for most vehicles.
|
| Better to bring the batteries to charge the cars when they
| need it: https://www.sparkcharge.io/
| tppiotrowski wrote:
| Would make swapping easy but reversing with a trailer is
| not easy.
| jonsen wrote:
| Self driving trailer shouldn't be difficult.
| nine_k wrote:
| I suspect that battery hot-swapping will be practical for
| electric _trucks_. Charging them is really slow unless you
| use a dozen of cables. Parked time costs real money for them.
| Normal trucks unload, reload, and go back to the highway
| pretty soon, often with a different driver at the wheel.
|
| Truck yards usually already have equipment for heavy lifting,
| and the batteries need not be tailored to the car aesthetics
| and space constraints. Also, a narrower industry has a better
| chance to come up with a common standard.
| toss1 wrote:
| I think the trick is not to swap the whole battery
|
| Instead design in a space for a secondary battery, maybe 40%
| the capacity of the main battery. Make those standard and
| swap-able.
|
| Now, you can use the car as ordinary in either the one-
| battery or two-battery mode, with the 1B config being more
| nimble handling with less range, and the 2B config more
| range. In any case, you can then enjoy rapid-swap of the
| standard 2nd battery, or maybe just rent one for a long trip.
|
| This also helps the automakers keep their proprietary designs
| on the main battery for differentiation. The 2nd battery
| could go in the extra trunk space or something...
| stetrain wrote:
| But if you are talking about faster partial-capacity
| refills during road trip stops, we already have that.
|
| Current batteries charge way faster from 0-50% than
| 50-100%. The curve really starts to fall off above 80%.
|
| I usually try to plan my stops so that I'm arriving with
| 5-10% and charging to 60-65%. With 250kW chargers that
| results in a ~15min charging stop.
|
| I don't think the costs of development, impact to vehicle
| design, and infrastructure would make sense for swaps just
| to replace what is already a 15min charge.
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