[HN Gopher] The conspiracy to kill Julius Caesar
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The conspiracy to kill Julius Caesar
Author : bryanrasmussen
Score : 36 points
Date : 2022-03-20 09:37 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nationalgeographic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nationalgeographic.com)
| mkl wrote:
| https://archive.ph/uAUsz
| ykevinator2 wrote:
| Thanks
| Koshkin wrote:
| I keep reminding myself that Julius was his last (family) name,
| and that his first (personal) name was Gaius.
| smegsicle wrote:
| where of course his second 'last name' of CAESAR was a
| 'cognomen', a sort of family nickname
| vagabund wrote:
| It sometimes fills me with awe that artifacts like the Eid Mar
| coins, born out of a history defining moment without equal, two
| millennia ago, not only persist but can be viewed by the public
| for a paltry sum. There's just a certain enchantment in having
| that history and its attendant mythology embodied in a physical
| object.
| mproud wrote:
| Might I recommend Historia Civilis and its affectionate use of
| colored squares:
|
| https://youtu.be/9XBxMk_plhA
| abalaji wrote:
| Historia Civilis really is one of the most spectacular YouTube
| channels out there. Not much other content out there compares
| to his high quality research coupled with fantastic
| storytelling.
|
| Once you've exhausted all of his videos, though, I would
| recommend Mike Duncan's History of Rome, an equally compelling
| podcast that cover Rome's rise in 753 b.c.e. to it's "fall" in
| 476 c.e. [1]
|
| [1] https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-history-of-
| rome/id...
| denkmoon wrote:
| In a vaguely similar vein I've really been enjoying the
| "toldinstone" channel recently,
| https://www.youtube.com/c/toldinstone
| vondur wrote:
| I noticed that they mentioned that Caesar's health may have been
| declining at this point. It should be noted that Ceasar was
| planning an invasion of the Dacians and the Parthian Empire at
| the time of his death. Hence the reason to assassinate him before
| he left Rome. Fairly remarkable for a man of his age to be
| leading such a long military campaign.
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| Just this week, I came across this:
|
| "You are afraid of the one -- I, of the few. We agree perfectly
| that the many should have a full fair and perfect Representation.
| -- You are Apprehensive of Monarchy; I, of Aristocracy. I would
| therefore have given more Power to the President and less to the
| Senate."
|
| -- John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson, 6 Dec. 1787
| darrenf wrote:
| Honestly my first thought upon seeing the name Julius Caesar is
| always to think of the English cricketer of the 1800s[0]. I
| suspect this places me in a minority of one.
|
| [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar_(cricketer)
| saghm wrote:
| I always think of the baseball player Calvin Coolidge Julius
| Caesar Tuskahoma McLish
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cal_McLish). Apparently his dad
| wanted to make up for not getting to name his older siblings,
| so he gave him as many names as possible.
| abalaji wrote:
| No way you're serious; even as an ardent cricket fan I'd never
| heard of him.
| darrenf wrote:
| I am serious. I live in the town where he lived, walk past
| his grave frequently, and drink in the pub (The Cricketers,
| Farncombe) where he worked as landlord. The other Caesar has
| no such presence in my daily life!
| B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
| > The other Caesar has no such presence in my daily life!
|
| Apart from having set up the modern calendar (slightly
| adjusted in the XVII century) and having a whole month
| named after him, and a few other minor things such as the
| original conquest of Britain ...
|
| "... what have the Romans done for us?"
| abalaji wrote:
| Well, I'll be--that's definitely fair enough!
| lordnacho wrote:
| I think of the Brazilian goalkeeper.
| ralmidani wrote:
| (Paywalled)
|
| You too, Nat Geo?
| edgyquant wrote:
| Not a subscriber so can't read, but when I see Caesar hit the
| front page, I upvote.
|
| I think we can't stress the story of Caesar enough in our era of
| demagoguery. A look into Rome at the time paints a picture of
| Caesar, like a lot of populists we've seen since 2015, wasn't
| actually wrong about a lot of his complaints. The senate was a
| corrupt, spoiled, bunch who only cared so much for the Republican
| because it provided them a ton of power within a very powerful
| polity; and it was there's the way a child thinks his parents
| back yard is theirs.
|
| They believed themselves entitled to enrichment on the backs of
| plebs and to top that off it was still a very real political idea
| (and movement) that Rome allowing the peasants both political
| power bringing them into the legions was a grave mistake that
| desperately needed undone (similar, but to a much greater extent,
| than the ultraconservatives who think giving the vote to women
| and African Americans is a grave mistake.)
|
| So it was easy for Caesar to point at these senators and say all
| of these things, because they were true. It's analogous to the
| way someone like Trump or Bernie Sanders used sound byte rhetoric
| to play up peoples emotions. The promises they made (whether or
| not they believe in them is irrelevant) are second to emotions
| running high.
|
| That Caesar may not have cared about the plebs is irrelevant,
| indeed it could have all been a personal vendetta dating back to
| the prescriptions imposed on him and his mother after Sulla took
| power.
|
| Sorry for this rant, I've spent the last few years thinking about
| this and how to better tell the story in a way that fits nicely
| with current times and trends. I believe when the story of Caesar
| is told it usually plays up the tragedy of Brutus or Caesar, both
| of whom were what were consider tyrants today, when there's a
| very real political message that is very important we understand
| today.
| mishftw wrote:
| I was listening to Dan Snow's History Hit podcast [0] where
| there was a guest episode on oligarchs & oligarchy in general.
| They mentioned Caesar because he was also an oligarch, like
| most of the other generals/Senators of Rome. Jeff Winters also
| wrote a book on this topic [1].
|
| Caesar threatened the oligarchs of Rome by crossing the Rubicon
| with his legions which was heavily frowned upon by the others.
| Caesar threatened their power structure for sure and likely led
| to his death.
|
| [0] https://podfollow.com/dan-snows-history-
| hit/episode/94f58a73... [1]
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11598740-oligarchy
| edgyquant wrote:
| I'd say it takes two to tango. Caesar didn't cross the
| Rubicon with his legions because he was a mustache twirling
| villain. He did so because the Roman senators (rightly)
| feared any man who commanded the respect of a large portion
| of the legions. Caesar has just pacified one Romes oldest
| fears, the Gauls, and the people loved him for it. He was
| told to disband his legions and return to face the senate, a
| move which certainly mean death, so he did what anyone who
| wanted to keep living: he invaded.
|
| I really wouldn't say Caesar's death had anything to do with
| oligarchs. Sure he threaten their business interests but what
| he did was so much worse in their eyes. Remember Rome was
| built on overthrowing a tyrant, the Senators believed any man
| who refused to disband his army was an aspiring King and
| aspiring kings can't be allowed to live.
|
| Of course Caesar was an aspiring king after the Rubicon,
| whether he was before will be debates too the end of time,
| having triumphs where he tested how king like he could act to
| his subjects (Mike Duncan has an episode on this where he
| says, "the Roman's could learn to love autoarchy, but they
| wouldn't accept monarchy.)
| reducesuffering wrote:
| > The senate was a corrupt, spoiled, bunch who only cared so
| much for the Republican because it provided them a ton of power
| within a very powerful polity; and it was there's the way a
| child thinks his parents back yard is theirs.
|
| It's a story as old as time. 1,500 years later down the road
| it's the Medici, nobility, and Signoria of the "Republic" of
| Florence.
| agumonkey wrote:
| for some reason https://archive.ph/uAUsz does have the whole
| article
| crate_barre wrote:
| If we want to go full throttle with the analogues to today,
| Ceasers journal entries would be read out loud in the public
| forum where large crowds gathered to hear it (as good a tweet
| as you can get). He specifically tried to reach the plebs.
| edgyquant wrote:
| Of course. Plebs are focused on working the land etc they
| don't have time for a full education into the political
| machinery of Rome they would need to understand in order to
| grasp the nuances of the problems of their day. So they
| outsource their grievances to a guy from that world who says
| he knows how to fix all their problems, it's easy even, if it
| weren't for the pesky Senators.
|
| This is exactly like what we've seen in recent years (really
| it's been seen time and time again.) I tried to leave out any
| names or obvious events other than to explain the rhetorical
| behavior they usually share.
|
| I will say that it doesn't take an ignorant person to fall
| victim to populism. I initially went head first into Bernie
| as "my guy" (not that I'm some genius, mind you.) Coming from
| a lower middle class white family he basically told me
| everything I wanted to hear in 2016.
|
| It's easy identifying a given problem but one thing I've come
| to try and understand is that if I ever have an idea that
| seems simple, it's best to try and figure out why it is it
| hasn't been solved yet. For any given issue (be it enterprise
| or political) there have probably been incredibly intelligent
| people, smarter than me for sure, who've tried to solve it
| and were unable to.
| andrekandre wrote:
| > he basically told me everything I wanted to hear in 2016
| ... > it's best to try and figure out why it is it
| hasn't been solved yet
|
| is the implication that bernie was just in it for himself?
| or just foolish for believing he could do what he said?
| hoten wrote:
| > That Caesar may not have cared about the plebs is irrelevant,
| indeed it could have all been a personal vendetta dating back
| to the prescriptions imposed on him and his mother after Sulla
| took power.
|
| No doubt he rode the waves of populism, but I wouldn't write
| off entirely that he actually did care, on some level, about
| the poorer class. He did grow up in that world himself (of
| course he came from a rich family, but his mother raised him in
| Subura, a poor part of Rome, where her business was), and when
| he first returned to Rome after Sulla was out of the picture he
| chose (well, probably had to, not having money) to live in the
| same place he grew up. I'm speculating, but it seems likely
| that rubbing shoulders with the lower class for most of his
| formative years suggests his later advocacy for their
| advancement in society may be somewhat genuine.
| [deleted]
| rkk3 wrote:
| Too much modern romanticization. Cassius and Brutus chose to
| assassinate Caesar because his consolidation of power meant they
| couldn't have grand political careers, it was a fundamentally
| selfish-act & power grab that we've projected enlightenment
| reasoning on.
|
| Strongly recommend. 'Caesar, Life of a Colossus' by Adrian
| Goldsworthy
| goto11 wrote:
| How do we know the motives of Brutus?
| zozbot234 wrote:
| It was not really a matter of enlightenment reasoning, but
| republican traditions that the Romans of their time would have
| been highly familiar with. Caesar had himself proclaimed
| "dictator for life for the purpose of reforming the state" only
| a few months prior to being killed, basically repeating what
| the by-then hated and vilified Sulla had done roughly a
| generation earlier (except that even Sulla had not dared to
| demand a _lifetime_ appointment, this was evidently Caesar 's
| idea). This post on the ACOUP blog goes in more detail wrt. the
| legal implications of that kind of move, which by that time had
| become quite clear to the Romans themselves:
| https://acoup.blog/2022/03/18/collections-the-roman-dictator...
| vagabund wrote:
| Plutarch's nearly contemporaneous account cites republican
| virtues as Brutus' motive, and Cassius' more personal [0]. It's
| quite hard to psychoanalyze figures that lived and died two
| millennia ago, but the political-ethical explanation of the
| event isn't an enlightenment invention.
|
| [0]
| https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/plutarch/...
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Many titles are derived from Caesar: Kaisar/Kaisaras, Tsar/Czar,
| Qays'r/Qas'r, etc.
| hoten wrote:
| Not just derived, but some of these can be seen as a claim to a
| title (in that, there can only be one). That becomes
| interesting when multiple people/institutions have claimed it
| at the same time. For example: the Ottoman Empire and the
| Catholic Church. When the ottomans sacked Constantinople, the
| Sultan Mehmed assumed the title Ceaser. Interestingly, although
| they adopted the title officially and used it a lot internally,
| for diplomatic purposes they would massage the wording a bit
| when conversing with western countries under the influence of
| the Church. [1]
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_claim_to_Roman_success...
| abalaji wrote:
| It is said that the night before Julius Ceaser's death, he broke
| bread with Decimus (an original conspirator) and Lepidus. The
| conversation of "what's the best way to die" was brought up.
| After some pontificating on the part of Decimus and Lepidus,
| Ceaser spoke up and said: "It would be best to die suddenly and
| unexpectedly."
|
| In the end, I guess he was right, we're still talking about his
| assassination 2000 years later.
| mannykannot wrote:
| I found this engrossing: Edward Watts on the End of the Roman
| Republic and Lessons for Democracy - episode 37 of Sean Carroll's
| Mindscape podcast. It is about the Roman Republic's unusual (both
| in its time and as compared to to today) democratic institutions,
| and their decline as the republic stumbled towards autocracy.
|
| https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2019/03/11/epis...
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