[HN Gopher] Ask HN: I'm changing my job after a 15-year tenure. ...
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Ask HN: I'm changing my job after a 15-year tenure. How should I
proceed?
Hello HN, I've been at my current company for the past 15 years.
I've taken on different roles where I started as a software
engineer, before being promoted to lead, and then to staff
engineer. I know my current company by heart. I know how to get
things done. I know who to talk to and how to talk to the right
people. I know the processes of my company in and out. I decided
to get out of my comfort zone. Try something new, I told myself on
and on for the past 3 years. And I finally did it. I'm changing
jobs. I'm going to a new company, where I'll be doing something
slightly similar to my previous role, but in a totally new field. I
don't know anyone there. The people seem extremely friendly and fun
to work with. This is what I felt in the hiring process. It feels
like I forgot how I got good at this. Technically, I have no doubts
to get things done. However, on the people level, I have no clue
how to get started. How do I make "new friends" at work? What do
you usually do when you switch to a new company? How do you go from
the "new clueless person at work" to "oh hey Mike, I'll need your
help this afternoon"?
Author : lma21
Score : 217 points
Date : 2022-03-18 10:51 UTC (12 hours ago)
| matt_heimer wrote:
| I find that there can be a lot of inefficiencies and flat out
| problems that existing employees have learned to accept. Being an
| outsider helps to see the problems that they've learned to
| ignore. Fixing those types of issues (after learning the
| backstory) in a positive way helps to integrate you with a new
| team.
| drakonka wrote:
| I felt the same way when switching from a company I liked and
| spent almost 8 years at to someplace totally new, in a brand new
| discipline that I was really excited about but didn't have much
| hands on experience in. It was very anxiety-inducing, since the
| pandemic really unfolded during my 3-month notice period and here
| I was leaving a stable position for a brand new probation period.
|
| To be honest for me the only thing that solved that clueless
| feeling was time, and that included overtime. Nobody was forcing
| me to work extra hours, but I really wanted to prove myself and
| get up to speed as fast as I could, so I would work late almost
| every day to become productive asap. Eventually I relaxed more
| and more, took more and more ownership over various services,
| developed and released new projects, etc. Before I knew it I had
| people asking me questions about different services we maintained
| and different parts of our stack. There were no tricks or
| strategies that made me feel better other than this type of
| "brute forcing" it by just powering through. The switch ended up
| being a good decision, even though I still think fondly of the
| company I left.
|
| Good luck!
| pygar wrote:
| Something to note is that your credibility doesn't go with with
| you in a new job. You need to build it up again more or less from
| zero. Focus on being competent and as long as you are pleasant,
| the natural comradery of having a shared goal will follow.
|
| Yes, it's simple advice, but when I recently started a new job it
| didn't automatically click that no one knew my capabilities,
| personality and previous career accomplishments. No one wants to
| be saddled with dead weight - especially in tech where there can
| be a high cognitive load.
| moonbug wrote:
| be friendly, be nice.
| geocrasher wrote:
| I just did this, but not to the same extreme. My suggestion: Do
| the thing that worked the first time, and that thing is:
|
| Be You.
|
| I've been at my current job for three months. It's a small
| startup. I went from "where is the loo" to onboarding new
| employees in that time. Why? Because I'm an expert in my field.
| The landscape changes, but your expertise are going to carry you
| through. I'm having to re-learn a number of things I haven't had
| to think about in almost 20 years, but it's all there. Give
| yourself time to ramp up. And, one more thing:
|
| Ask questions. Ask until you understand. DON'T BE AFRAID TO SOUND
| DUMB.
|
| I tell new coworkers and managers this: I'm going to ask
| questions that may sound dumb- not because I'm dumb, but because
| I need to be able to relate information at its banging-rocks-
| together level. If they don't appreciate that, then I'm in the
| wrong place.
| mooreds wrote:
| > Ask questions. Ask until you understand. DON'T BE AFRAID TO
| SOUND DUMB.
|
| This is such good advice. If you don't understand something,
| chances are very good that others don't.
|
| It is important to know when to take your questions "offline".
| That is, don't hold up a meeting with 10 people in it while you
| get an understanding of component X. Take a note and follow up
| with the component X team directly.
|
| I'd add: document what you learn so that other employees can
| learn it without asking questions. Plus you'll understand it
| better. If it is not confidential, ask if you can share it
| publicly. That'll have the double benefit of increasing the
| world's store of knowledge as well as the profile of the
| company.
| heyitsanewacco wrote:
| "Be you" is horrible advice for introverts. Be extroverted is
| the advice I always give. This isn't a hobby, this is
| capitalism, and your ability to put food on the table is going
| to be dependent on you faking a smile and pretending to care
| about other people.
|
| The don't be afraid to sound dumb is also spot on though.
| geocrasher wrote:
| The strength of "Be You" was _specifically_ for the OP. Being
| Them has worked so far- so keep doing it. As general advice,
| I also find it spot on, though. We can never be what we aren
| 't. If you want to _improve_ yourself, do that. But never try
| to be something you aren 't. You're only lying to yourself
| and others. Instead, become what you wish you were, then the
| projection you're giving is authentic.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| Number 1, 2 and 3 is not to try to justify your title and impress
| people with your knowledge. I routinely see new experienced hires
| immediately trying to show off how much they know and lecture the
| people who are already there. They usually fail big time because
| nobody likes them and their suggestions show a lock of
| understanding.
|
| In the first few weeks listen a lot, ask non-confrontational
| questions and learn as much as you can. If you are good, you will
| find areas where you can help and your help is welcome.
| rubyfan wrote:
| I'm curious how your experience was finding and landing the new
| job?
|
| I'm in a similar position, at a big company for over 10 years
| after working in startups. I was technical when I got there but
| over time as I got more immersed in the business my tech skills
| have eroded. I'm now in a unique position as an executive that
| doesn't translate super well to a lot of the opportunities at
| companies I might be interested in. I'm feeling a little stuck
| and I'm not even getting to interviews on anything I've posted
| for so far.
|
| Curious if others have had this experience and how did you
| navigate it?
| brundolf wrote:
| In addition to everything else here, I've found you make friends
| at work quickly if you tackle long-lived concerns or pain-points
| (for individuals or teams) that haven't gotten enough attention
|
| Filling gaps in tooling, fixing bugs in the product that some
| people have been making noise about but haven't been prioritized
| by management, solving inter-team friction by finding a middle
| ground that everyone can live with, giving non-technical
| stakeholders a sympathetic ear inside the engineering team, etc.
|
| Find something that's been ruining someone's day over and over,
| and make it stop doing that. Instantly positive professional
| relationship.
| moss2 wrote:
| Honestly, just ask anyone who they think you should talk to.
|
| "Oh hey Alice, I got this problem with X. Do you know who can
| help with X?"
|
| "I think Mike knows about X"
|
| ...
|
| "Oh hey Mike, someone told me that you have worked with X. Is
| that correct? I could use some help."
|
| Do this for every problem and you'll get a good sense of who your
| colleagues are and what they work with
| ttyprintk wrote:
| And in a related vein, this is an effective pattern I've used
| for one senior dev to onboard another:
|
| Shadow me for a day and memorize everything I'm told to do.
| Hold me to each of those --- by specifically verifying how and
| what I did --- learning the company process along the way.
| lanstin wrote:
| 1. Don't expect to be very useful for three months or so. 2. Keep
| a list of things you hear people saying and don't understand.
| Periodically ask about a few of them (but not necessarily in real
| time). 3. Get ready for the joy of learning new things - it is a
| better long term strategy for your brain to go to different
| environments and learn new stuff that you wouldn't have been able
| to predict before. And it's fun.
| jpgvm wrote:
| So. You are at a new gig. You are no longer the top dog. Accept
| this, hell embrace this. It should be a huge weight lifted from
| your shoulders.
|
| Focus first on getting to know your direct reports (if you have
| them) and then your peers. It's important to build rapport with
| your peers because they will show you the ropes. If you have the
| time and freedom invite said peers to have a drink after work or
| get a bite depending on culture of drinking in your place of
| residence. Engaging with your peers outside of strict work hours
| is still unfortunately the most effective route in most cases to
| build strong connections.
|
| Overall though just try to relax a bit at the start, observe and
| soak up knowledge. Things will be different but that doesn't make
| then wrong. Try to understand the pros and cons of new place vs
| old place so that once you have acclimatized and garnered some
| respect you can offer opinions on how to combine the best of both
| worlds.
|
| To be honest going from being the preeminent domain expert to
| being a highly positioned noob is hard. But learning to see
| everything from a new point of view is totally with it.
| mooreds wrote:
| First, congratulations! It can be hard to step out of a comfort
| zone.
|
| Second, realize that you will be the clueless newbie for a few
| months. Not in terms of tech or experience, but in terms of all
| those amorphous "I know how to get things done" tasks. You are
| going to have to sit with that and, while it won't be
| comfortable, it'll get better over time.
|
| I've done this a couple of times in my career, though my longest
| tenure was ~8 years. My advice for "newbie oldsters" (just made
| that up right now) is fourfold:
|
| * realize the value of new eyes to the company. You can see
| things that others don't because they are inured to their current
| situation. You only get to be a new employee once at each
| company. Enjoy that advantage, uncomfortable as it may be.
|
| * take notes on those things that are interesting to you.
| Publicly document them (if they aren't) or improve the docs (if
| they are). Writing down something will give you experience in the
| domain and give you a chance to talk to folks when you ask them
| to review it.
|
| * resist the temptation to prescribe in these notes or in
| conversations, especially early on. The team is excited to have
| you but if you come in and say "at OLDCO we did it this way,
| which is far superior" you will be wasting that excitement. The
| exception to this is if you see an existential threat to the
| company due to its practices (no backups, critical SPOFs). An
| open mind and asking "why" with an eye toward learning will serve
| you better.
|
| * attend any social events that the new company has; as many as
| you can. Those non-work work events can be a pain in the butt in
| terms of taking time away from your personal life, but you can
| meet people outside of your team or even inside your team. And
| those informal ties can prove extremely helpful when you have a
| work problem in the future. ("Oh, we need to get design to sign
| off on that? I'll ask Joe who should be looking at it; we chatted
| at the Friday morning coffee a few weeks ago.")
|
| Finally, some of this will come with time, but it usually takes 6
| months to a year to have the internal credibility and confidence
| and knowledge to really make things happen. Take the small wins
| while you can and keep going.
| Joeri wrote:
| Instead of giving advice, I'm going to talk about how it was for
| me doing the same, switching after 13 years at my first employer.
|
| There was a lot more learning at the new job than I initially
| thought. Much of the knowledge was domain-specific, which I
| hadn't realized there would be so much of (and also how a lot of
| my existing knowledge proved unique to my previous employer), but
| much was also in technologies I just hadn't worked with before.
| The first year was a good lesson in humility.
|
| Also that first year, I felt ... lost. In the old organization I
| was the goto guy for lots of questions, and in the new
| organization things happened around me but often didn't involve
| me, and I struggled to get traction on those projects around me
| even when I knew I could be useful. Similarly having influence on
| the decision-making took a while. At the old place my opinion
| carried weight with all the right people. At the new place I had
| no reputation and no connections, and my opinion was heard but
| initially carried little weight. I had to build up some social
| credit first to have that kind of say. Also, the way decisions
| were made was completely different, and it took over a year until
| I understood how to influence them and I started getting real
| agency over my work.
|
| Finally, at first it was quite lonely. I knew it was important to
| get to know a lot of people so I tried to have a lot of different
| contacts and kept a list of names (because I'm terrible with
| them), but even though everyone was very nice to me I didn't feel
| a real bond with them until after a while, and I missed the
| coworkers from my old job during that time. Forming a bond with
| my new coworkers ultimately happened through the projects I was
| doing with them.
| hluska wrote:
| My Dad was a police officer and I moved around a lot as a kid, so
| I had more than a decade of experience being the new kid before I
| graduated high school. I figured out some things and still use
| them when I'm new in organizations.
|
| 1.) Learn names.
|
| 2.) Avoid tribes at first. It's tempting to latch onto the first
| group that welcomes you, but try to avoid this. For at least the
| first few weeks, focus on developing superficial relationships
| with lots of people over deep relationships with few.
|
| 3.) Find the cool. Starting something new often triggers
| something like mourning. Give yourself space to mourn the old,
| but force yourself space to find extremely cool things in the new
| place. You're closing one door and opening another. Hunt the
| cool! It's easier to do this if you form lots of relationships
| early on.
|
| 4.) Everyone is shy.
|
| 5.) I got to know two types of cops' kids:
|
| - "The place I lived two moves ago was the best."
|
| - "Whatever town I live in now is the best."
|
| Guess who had an easier time making friends.
|
| 6.) DIY. Your new town might suck and the place you lived last
| move may have actually been the best town on earth. It got that
| way because people had ideas and did it themselves. You got the
| idea from someone else so 5% of the hard work is already
| done...:)
|
| 7.) Once you've been the new person, your most important task is
| to always help new people.
| aprdm wrote:
| This is great, I'm going through something similar as the OP
| and definitely helpful!
| ativzzz wrote:
| > focus on developing superficial relationships with lots of
| people
|
| Any tips for doing this in a remote company? Just be more
| active in random slack channels? Reach out to random
| individuals?
| wara23arish wrote:
| I need help with this badly. I recently started at a remote
| company. I think do a better than average job at socializing
| and meeting people in person.
|
| But definitely worse on slack, I overthink my messages that I
| type and end up not participating since I feel it can be
| misunderstood. I also feel that I dont want to be seen as a
| "time-waster".
|
| Fwiw, i also struggle with this with my american friends on
| discord, i just dont know how to navigate this sort of stuff
| and whats okay and not okay.
| [deleted]
| tobyjsullivan wrote:
| What about scheduling meet-and-greet 1:1's?
|
| If you've ever worked on a team that uses Donut - think
| something like that. A chat to meet each other and, ideally,
| talk about stuff other than work (but I find work talk is my
| go-to when the room goes silent and that's fine too).
|
| I'll usually ping someone on slack with a quick message like:
|
| > Hey <name>, I just joined the engineering team and I'm
| scheduling a quick chat with everyone as part of my
| onboarding. Would you be free for a chat at <X:XX> tomorrow?
|
| Then book it as soon as they say yes or propose a time. Don't
| worry about the people who don't respond. Move on for now -
| you'll meet them later.
|
| The audience is usually:
|
| - Everyone on the engineering team
|
| - Every manager up the management chain (up to CEO for a
| smaller company, probably have to stop somewhere before that
| in bigger companies)
|
| - Every "lead" type person in all adjacent groups (Design,
| product, QA, customer support, operations, etc.). Rule of
| thumb: whoever you'd go talk to first (or, often, who your
| manager would go talk to first) if you had a general question
| about that area.
|
| - Anyone who you encounter that seems like they'd be fun to
| talk to/friendly.
| earleybird wrote:
| Make the occasional "no reason" call/chat, just a 'how are
| you doing' to someone you've newly met in an online meeting.
| One of our exec directors (who is by nature fairly
| approachable) hosts a weekly drop-in online meeting where
| anyone can stop by and chat about anything - often non work
| topics.
|
| Doing these things historically would be considered quite of
| of character for me so I understand it can be difficult to
| do.
| spangry wrote:
| This will sound counter-intuitive, but calling individuals to
| ask for small favours is a good way to build rapport and to
| learn more about your colleagues. Most people are very happy
| to help out the new guy, and asking a small favour is a good
| pretext for starting broader conversations about the topic
| they're an expert in or, even better, are passionate about.
|
| For example: "Hey John, I'm spangry and I just started this
| week in team foo. So and so tells me that you're the resident
| expert on x. I'm planning to do some work related to x and
| figured, given I'm new and all, I should talk to you before
| starting. Have you got a moment to talk about x?" Then ask
| your favour and they will likely oblige. After you've thanked
| them, that's your opportunity to launch into a more general
| conversation where you show interest in their background or
| subject of interest (e.g. 'So how long have you been at
| [company] for? Got any tips for a new starter?' or 'I did a
| little research on x before calling and read that y is a big
| issue at the moment. Just curious, what's your take on y
| issue?')
|
| It goes without saying that being genuinely interested and
| curious about them helps greatly. I think the above works
| because (1) most people want to help, and they remember what
| it was like to be new (2) it's respectful, even flattering,
| that you're coming to them for their expertise and (3)
| broadening the conversation (but still keeping it on safe
| ground) generates additional conversation paths and further
| opportunities for building rapport.
|
| Lastly, asking for small favours (which are obliged) may
| actually make people like you more as a post-hoc
| rationalisation for why they did you the favour (this is
| known as the Ben Franklin effect:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect).
| alostpuppy wrote:
| This is amazing advice!
| ttyp3 wrote:
| - "Friends? This town is just the place where I live and go to
| school every day, before moving on to the next destination."
| stuxnet79 wrote:
| Reminds me of this scene from Tokyo Drift:
| https://youtu.be/BkZ7MnnKQow
| JSeymourATL wrote:
| > I have no clue how to get started...
|
| Think WHO, not How.
|
| Build out your own a strategic org chart of the people WHO really
| get things done in the new company.
|
| Reach out to individuals for a simple introduction-- see where
| your circles overlap.
|
| Assuming good tonality, ask WHO you should speak to next?
|
| Look for the outliers and power connectors. Those guys who seem
| to know and really get along well with everyone.
|
| Personal experience-- my second week on the job, I met a British
| Ex-Pat who ran our Sao Paulo sales office. He became my linchpin
| to all our overseas operations.
| pzs wrote:
| I have just resigned after 16 years at my current place, so I can
| understand your feelings.
|
| However, 3 years ago I made a mobility move within the company to
| a different division. To non-experts the new role looked similar
| form the outside, but almost everything was different: the
| people, (most of) the systems, even the culture, how the work was
| organized and appreciated, and so on. I experienced some sort of
| a culture shock. One of the problems I had to address in the new
| role was attrition and I kept telling people to give some time to
| their jobs to get a better understanding of what it was about and
| what opportunities it offered, and fought the same battle inside
| with myself to walk the walk not just talk the talk.
|
| What I kept reminding myself about was that I should not compare
| the new role to the old one over and over again (except when
| there was some specific need). Instead, I just believed that my
| experience would help me help others. I was still the most senior
| guy in the team and after understanding where the biggest needs
| were, I started thinking about how I can address them, and came
| up with ideas which I went on to implement. They were much
| appreciated.
|
| Another thing that worked well for me was to put all the warnings
| and indirect information I had received before my move on the
| back seat and give everyone a chance to start with a clean slate.
| I was very disciplined about that and as a result I could fix
| some historically very tense relationships between locations. I
| think if you approach people in an open-minded fashion, most of
| them will be happy to cooperate (except those whose interest
| dictates the opposite).
|
| Also, don't be afraid to ask questions even about dumb things. I
| found that a lot of people with some experience are happy to
| share their knowledge and explain things to you. Listening to
| them will create mutual respect. And you will also understand who
| knows what and who you can count on.
|
| Just be patient with yourself and you will find that you have the
| skills to be good at the new place.
|
| EDIT: fixed some grammar problems
| sshumaker wrote:
| The gold standard job transition book for "leadership roles" is
| the First 90 Days [1]. I re-read it every time I change roles.
| The #1 mistake people make is try to apply the lessons of their
| last job and and propose big changes without having built up
| sufficient context, relationships and credibility. Stay curious
| longer, meet a lot of people and hear out what their concerns
| are, and find quick wins. Invest in developing relationships by
| finding common ground and spending more time with those that you
| naturally hit it off with.
|
| [1]https://www.amazon.com/First-90-Days-Strategies-
| Expanded/dp/...
| oxff wrote:
| "Brace for impact" probably describes the event well, but you'll
| survive.
| jayceedenton wrote:
| Try to reserve judgement on things for as long as possible.
| You'll be shocked by some things, and you'll find some of your
| new colleagues incredibly frustrating, but try to hold off on
| forming harsh judgements until you really understand the context.
|
| Have faith in yourself. If you were a go-to person in the past
| (the kind that has people visiting you for help) then you'll be a
| go-to person again, just give it time, you WILL get there.
| Sometimes you'll be stressed about whether you're getting there
| quick enough, but just relax and have faith that it will happen.
| That said, remember that being in your last place for 15 years
| has given you an unreasonable amount of insight there, but you
| don't know it all at the new place, so listen.
|
| You might find this job is a rebound job. It might take you a few
| attempts before you find somewhere you want to stay for many
| years. It might be them, and it might be you, bit don't take it
| too hard if you find the new place isn't right for you and after
| giving it a good go you decide to move on again.
| eschneider wrote:
| Ok, I'm in the process of doing this myself (started a new
| position after 12 years at my last job just over a month ago.) I
| take the approach that I always liked with people who I helped
| mentor at my last job: Just dig in on each new task, try and
| figure things out and when you get stuck, outline what you
| did/figured out, what you think maybe the next step is, and ask
| some clarifying questions before you get completely in the weeds.
| Take some notes so you don't need to ask THAT question again.
| You'll get up to speed reasonably quick, won't flail too much,
| and generally be respectful of other's time.
|
| Remember, you're new and it's ok to be clueless at the start.
| Just try and use each new thing you do to accumulate clue and
| you'll be fine.
| amy_seqmedia wrote:
| Firstly, congratulations! Changing from a well-known situation to
| a completely new one. It must be a little bit scary because
| everything will be unfamiliar. And that's OK. You're going on an
| adventure!
|
| In fact, you're probably far from being alone. There will be many
| people around you in the same boat. Because of that: everyone is
| likely to be in the same situation where none of the old
| processes may now work the same way. (Even if the long-timers
| don't admit it!)
|
| And chances are (since you're posting on HN) that a lot of your
| colleagues are remote. So this might be harder too since you may
| miss physical cues and casual things that make it easy to build
| friendships and become a known quantity: you can't find your
| tribe by sight nor will they be able to find you.
|
| 1) Meet everyone regardless of title. Learn who they are, not
| just what they do. Take field notes!
|
| 2) Meet everyone related the people you talk to. Repeat until
| numPeopleMet >= 100.
|
| 3) Join all the tribes/channels, even if you don't think you have
| a strong affiliation with the group. Observe how language flows,
| not just where the code goes. Make visual maps of how products
| and teams interrelate.
|
| 4) Be joyful of the skills that you bring, and find fellow fans.
|
| Have fun on your new adventure!
| gwbas1c wrote:
| I did this after 9 years. My M.O. in a new job is to find a pain
| point and fix it quickly. Specifically, find a pain point that
| either directly impacts productivity, customers, sales, ect. If
| you're "allowed" to fix the pain point, it's a good sign. If you
| have resistance, run quickly. It means that management doesn't
| know how to handle your expertise.
|
| Why?
|
| You're a lead, you should be able to see problems a mile away.
| Your new company should trust your expertise to anticipate and
| fix problems.
|
| Examples:
|
| I joined a company with a Mac product that would peg the CPU for
| days. It was impacting sales. Took me and another developer ~6
| weeks to refactor some bad design decisions in a critical area.
| Pegging the CPU for days dropped to 1-2 minutes. (If I wasn't
| allowed to fix it I was going to leave.)
|
| I joined another company that was using a beyond end-of-life web
| programming language. The lead developer resisted my efforts to
| transition to modern Javascript, and resisted my efforts to
| transition to modern hosted source control. It ended poorly,
| although there was a lot of relief when the leadership announced
| that they were switching to Github. (I should have asked them to
| lay me off so I could collect unemployment.)
|
| I joined a company where a small team had a project spread over 3
| git repos, with tons of little dlls. Simple refactors that Visual
| Studio could automate would take all day. I merged everything
| into a single repo, and merged many small dlls into larger dlls.
| Build time was much shorter, and refactoring was possible. (If I
| wasn't able to fix the problem, I was going to leave.)
| saalweachter wrote:
| So you may not have a lot of experience with switching jobs
| yourself -- I don't myself -- but you've probably got a lot of
| experience being on the other side of things, being on
| established teams in an established company and having new people
| join.
|
| How'd that go? What were the failure modes? Who really nailed it?
|
| One specific piece of advice is going to be to remember that your
| old company was your _old_ company. Some things about the way it
| worked -- from its coding practices to its tooling and framework
| choices to its meeting structure -- were right, some were wrong,
| and most were just arbitrary and didn 't matter in the long run.
| Don't be too keen to try to remake your new company in the image
| of the old one because that's what's familiar to you. Take some
| time to understand the new company and what does or doesn't work
| about it, and also where the existing sentiments lie.
|
| When you do draw on your experience to offer a suggestion that
| you try X like they did at your old company because the Y the new
| company does just isn't working, you want the reaction to be that
| half the team has been saying it for years, but they haven't had
| anyone with the depth of experience with X to make the change.
| wwilim wrote:
| I've heard this suggestion that you should schedule a few 1 on 1s
| with a variety of people and ask them to walk you through what
| they do, what they work with and how everything looks from their
| perspective
| playcache wrote:
| Hey, I really recommend the book 'The first 90 day's. Its
| immensely helpful for just this.
| [deleted]
| bradly wrote:
| After fifteen years of Rails cumulating with my dream job at
| Apple, I quit to build furniture with zero experience. Here's
| what has helped me:
|
| - Find the best people in your new industry and reach out to
| them. I'm spending four days with a master builder next month
| after reaching out on their contact us form.
|
| - Join local trade associations, go to meetings, and offer to
| volunteer. Your unique background may offer a unique set of
| skills.
|
| - Acknowledge that it will be difficult and possibly
| uncomfortable at times.
|
| - Have twelve months living expenses in cash savings.
|
| Good luck!
| up_and_up wrote:
| In order to be successful on a new team or at new company I
| recommend The First 90 Days.
|
| You could save time by simply reading and distilling this blog
| post: https://www.ricklindquist.com/notes/the-first-90-days
| caffeine wrote:
| Main thing is don't expect too much. You will not experience that
| same feeling of comfortable camaraderie again for a long time.
|
| Make an effort to listen to people. Keep your ego in check -
| avoid saying "Well at my old company we did ..." - just listen to
| what people are doing here and now.
|
| I would also say try to maximise informal 1-on-1 time with other
| people, ask them about their work, their opinions, etc. If you
| are in a larger group don't opine, just listen. If you have
| questions, don't interrupt the group - use it as an opportunity
| to go ask the relevant person after and build a 1-1 relationship.
|
| Try to keep a smile on your face. Avoid dark humour or joke-
| complaining.
|
| Edit: Say yes to everything, at least once, for the first year.
| Any time anyone invites you to a drink or a talk or a meeting,
| just say yes.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| You just described self-censorship and groupthink. You also
| described certain aspects of workplace psychopathy (especially
| the psychopatic entry and assessment part).
|
| Groupthink is when people, seeking validation from a group and
| to preserve harmony and cohesion, withhold their opinions
| causing the group to make suboptimal decisions.
|
| If you think you will have to do this, don't join the company.
| Groupthink means the company doesn't foster psychological
| safety, which is the top predictor of team performance.
|
| This is not only bad advice, it's probably unethical too. You
| are expected to work in the best interest of the company, and
| the company is expected to not punish people for speaking up
| about their ideas.
|
| What you described works if you want to advance yourself at the
| expense of the company, but again, it is not ethical.
|
| You are just exploiting information asymmetry, and anyone that
| likes doing that in a good faith organization should be let go.
| Highly political people are a waste of time.
| n42 wrote:
| you're over thinking it. parent comment is rooted in
| respecting your coworkers, not being some subservient drone
| who doesn't add anything to the conversation. coming in and
| saying "we did this at my last company" provides no room for
| learning why we do things this way here now, and serves to
| alienate you from your coworkers. there's a long period of
| learning and listening that should be respected. you will
| have better quality input if you spend the time to understand
| why before adding anecdotes. it's very good advice. of course
| speak up if you have something to add to the conversation,
| just be mindful of how you do so.
|
| I'm sick of this black and white attitude being spread about
| how displaying any kind of thoughtfulness to your coworkers
| or your professional life is unhealthy for you.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Just listen to what they have to say and evaluate if it's a
| good idea. If it is not a good idea, it is not
| constructive, or not actionable, or if it is not a priority
| you can voice that opinion.
|
| It is called critical thinking, collaboration and
| professionalism.
|
| Isolating a new person for having a good idea is being
| unprofessional and passive aggressive. Using your numbers
| to psychologically abuse a person just for having a good
| idea sounds more like prison culture than a real
| engineering organization.
|
| It also creates a culture of mediocrity which scares away
| talent, and a breeding ground for psychopathy.
|
| Just do your job, which is to solve problems, not creating
| new ones. Focus on the problem to be solved.
|
| When you are being paid by a company and acting on behalf
| of the company, wear the company employee hat instead of
| the roman politician wannabe hat.
|
| "We hire smart people to tell us what to do" - Steve Jobs.
| nocman wrote:
| Maybe it is due to the way people interpret things
| differently, but none the assessments you are making in
| your two posts about the original comment are things that
| I would have said or thought about that comment.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| The original comment was: use your charm to gain the
| trust of people, meet with each person, assess how they
| are useful to get your goals done.
|
| Those are the textbook first steps of the workplace
| psychopath.
|
| Then comes establishing a network of patrons and pawns,
| confronting your rivals and the psychopatic ascension,
| where useless patrons and pawns are forgotten or even
| eliminated.
| n42 wrote:
| > Just listen to what they have to say and evaluate if
| it's a good idea. If it is not a good idea, it is not
| constructive, or not actionable, or if it is not a
| priority you can voice that opinion.
|
| yes. the key is to listen first. so it sounds like you're
| in agreement with me and the GP, and everything else you
| said is because you want to be upset.
| tuckerpo wrote:
| Your POV might ring true for Apple, for instance, but at
| 99% of American engineering jobs you kinda wanna just
| keep your head down and get good and not step on people's
| toes. Most jobs, even if they ought to be meritocracy
| based, are really just social games and if you come in
| guns blazing about how X, Y and Z are mediocre and can be
| improved, you're just stepping on toes and hurting
| feelings. It's human nature.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Let's all live in caves then. Let's not talk about how
| life outside caves is possible or better than living in a
| cave. Solving problems hurts people's feelings.
|
| We should be happy living in caves and punish people that
| suggest anything better... until the tribe across the
| river with bronze weapons kills us.
| mooreds wrote:
| > Try to keep a smile on your face. Avoid dark humour or joke-
| complaining.
|
| Such good advice. At your old company you were a known quantity
| so if you made a dark joke or whatnot, you got a pass: "oh, Dan
| is just in a crabby mood today".
|
| At a new company you don't have that store of social capital.
| You're building it day by day.
| mikkergp wrote:
| Just a quick counter to the "avoid saying well, at my old
| company we did this". A lot of people hire externally to get
| this perspective, especially if it's a team that hasn't grown
| in a while, but if that's the case they usually won't be shy
| about telling you that. But don't be attached to how you did
| things before just see if it opens up new ideas for everyone.
| caffeine wrote:
| Yes definitely. I think especially if people ask it's great
| to tell them as much as they ask for.
|
| I personally did everything I advised not doing in that post,
| and learned the lessons, so I will just tell you my
| experience of it, and YMMV.
|
| For me, the downside of telling the war stories was the
| opportunity cost - I could have spent that time listening,
| and as the new joiner the information and rapport is way more
| valuable than the status gained from telling the story and
| entertaining, impressing, or educating people.
|
| The other downside is that people are eager to please a new
| joiner. They might sometimes say "Yeah we should do that
| here! Why don't you be in charge of it!" But this is just to
| please you - you don't actually know enough yet about what is
| happening in the new company to know if your way will bring
| value. Now you are busy spearheading a tangent that may have
| no value rather than continuing climbing the learning curve.
| sbayeta wrote:
| This is top notch advice
| creaghpatr wrote:
| Love this question. I recently changed jobs to a fully remote
| role and I was lucky enough to receive a detailed list of
| suggestions of people to meet, resources to access, etc from my
| hiring manager.
|
| If you are starting a remote gig, doing camera-on video 1 on 1s
| with all the people you I would encounter (and often one level
| above) was extremely helpful for me as it gave me a chance to
| introduce myself and set the context for those who were not
| involved in the interview process.
|
| I would always finish by asking for advice on what it takes to be
| successful at X company, people loved that question and shared
| tips that shed light on internal culture rather than the typical
| platitudes. Good luck!
| cecilpl2 wrote:
| > I would always finish by asking for advice on what it takes
| to be successful at X company
|
| Strong agree on this. I also recently switched jobs and I asked
| this question of everyone I interviewed with. I got thoughtful
| answers from every single person, and several common themes
| stood out that convinced me the company's core values really
| wound their way through the fabric, rather that just being
| trite platitudes.
| faangiq wrote:
| You're in a position now where people come to you. This won't be
| true in the new company, don't make this mistake.
| eddieroger wrote:
| I've just done the same (thought not 15 years in), and here are
| some of the things I've been thinking through that may be help
| you.
|
| This is an opportunity to change the things you didn't like about
| yourself in your previous role, and reinforce the things you did.
| I never took vacations. I had a reputation for always being
| available on Slack, no matter the day, or the first person on an
| incident call. Those things are still important to me, but
| work/life balance is, too, and with no reputation, I can be
| whoever I want to be. I want to be quick to respond, but only
| when a system tells me I need to, not because I'm trolling Slack
| on the couch at 8pm.
|
| Ask a lot of questions. You know enough to be hired, but nothing
| about the new place, so ask! Give your new peers opportunities to
| be experts, and eventually they will do the same to you.
|
| Try not to live in the past. This is a place I could use work
| myself. Rely on the things you've learned, but realize the
| situation is different, and if you compare now to then, you'll be
| disappointed. Remember, it took 15 years to get to "then." There
| is a possibility that it was more than just time, but it will
| take time to figure that out.
|
| Assuming best intentions, you got to the place you are by being
| yourself. So, do it again. Rely on your instincts. Look at the
| world as a recent grad starting their new job, and do it again.
| You think you forgot how to do it, but maybe you never really
| knew "how" before, you just did it. If you did it once, you can
| probably do it again.
| gorbachev wrote:
| I changed teams internally about a year ago after 6 years in the
| same team. Changed into a completely different area with no
| domain knowledge and a technology stack that has nothing in
| common with what I was doing before.
|
| Some of the things that have helped.
|
| Be a sponge. Absorb everything, all the time. Ask questions. Read
| everything. Make sure you get time with people who can answer
| questions / teach you things. People, almost always, are happy to
| spend time with you.
|
| When something aligns with your existing expertise, and there's
| always something, jump in. Offer advice, solve problems. If your
| company culture is healthy, your new team mates will really
| appreciate it. Different perspectives are so refreshing.
|
| It'll take time to feel like you're an integral part of your new
| team / company. From what you already told us, I think it'll
| happen sooner rather than later in your new company.
| dkarl wrote:
| The nice thing is that you're used to a good situation. At your
| new job, when you feel uncertain, you can ask, "Why is this
| different?" The answer might be that you don't know who to talk
| to about an issue, or you don't understand the architecture as
| well, or you don't know your way around the code, and you can
| translate those differences into corrective action: ask another
| person who to talk to about the issue, ask a coworker if they can
| answer some questions about the architecture, study the layout of
| the code repo. This puts you way ahead of someone who is less
| experienced, or who is coming from a less ideal situation. They
| might not know what it feels like to be oriented in the code, to
| be in the loop, etc. Someone like that might languish or need
| coaching to improve, but you will get up to speed in no time.
| coward123 wrote:
| One piece of advice: If you find yourself saying things like "At
| my old job..." just shut your mouth. I mean this with the utmost
| respect that phrases like that are the best way to alienate your
| new co-workers. Listen and learn to how _they_ do things, then
| over time start improving things if you see opportunities. If
| they want to know how you 've done it in the past, they will ask.
| Otherwise, you just look like a know-it-all who can't adapt.
| ansk0 wrote:
| I was in a similar position to you a couple of weeks ago -
| switched job after the better part of a decade. The main things
| I've found that have built trust are: 1. hanging out casually
| with teammates in the office 2. taking notes and/or screenshots
| in every conversation and then reviewing them to stay on top of
| everything
|
| From the other side, I've onboarded a lot of engineers in the
| past and the best ones have been "yes, and?" people. So you'd
| explain a process to them, they'd say yes and try to figure out
| what comes next. e.g. if someone explains that changes are
| released via a pipeline, the best on-boarders I've seen would say
| "yes, and what stages are in the pipeline and how do they
| progress?". Where possible I'd recommend the pro-active
| questioning approach.
| [deleted]
| lowken wrote:
| I just went through this in July of 2020. I worked at a company
| for 15 years as a software developer and switched. At my new
| company I'm now one of the domain experts and I was just
| promoted.
|
| The biggest piece of advice I can offer is to use Anki. As you
| learn new pieces of domain knowledge throw the info into Anki.
| Then review your Anki deck daily. No one does and you will be
| shocked at how quickly you move up the domain knowledge ladder.
|
| Good Luck
| noasaservice wrote:
| Per my own policy, I try not to stay any one place longer than
| 3y. It keeps my skills sharp, my pocketbook full with appropriate
| raises, and is fun for new challenges.
| exogenousdata wrote:
| I did this about 5 years ago. My suggestions. 1.
| Find a lieutenant asap: That's your start towards building a
| coalition of folks who get things done. They can give you a
| head-start on institutional knowledge. In return, you can give
| them a new boost they need in their career. 2. Meet
| with everyone twice: In the first week meet with everyone that is
| either a consumer of your tech or someone that you rely on for
| data/processes. Let them talk about their business, what's
| working, what's not, etc. Write it all down. Then at the end of
| that first meeting, set-up a follow up conversation with them
| soon after. By that next meeting, you'll definitely have follow
| up information/questions. 3. Identify your value &
| execute: Why did your new boss/c-level bring you on? What are
| they looking for you to do within your first 3-6-12 months.
| Figure that out, make sure it's reasonable, then drive it with
| relentless precision & focus. You're not 'the guy' anymore that
| knows everything. You can't keep a bunch of plates in the air at
| the same time because you have all this institutional knowledge
| of systems and people. So the simplest way of standing out is
| being known as someone who can be given a task and delivers.
| Eventually the experience you get from delivering on that goal(s)
| will give you the knowledge you need to be a domain expert again.
| 4. Ask for help: Simplest way to get someone to like you is to
| ask them for a favor. Doesn't even matter if it's all that
| important. It's very counter-intuitive. You'd think the best
| way to get folks to like you is to do stuff for them. But a) you
| don't have that much value at the moment and b) they wind up
| feeling indebted to you, which isn't all that great. Instead,
| ask someone for help. If they give it, genuinely thank them.
| This helps in two ways. 1) It makes you seem like a real human
| and 2) it gives you an opportunity to follow up with them later
| and say something to the effect of, "Hey, thanks for helping with
| <the thing they helped you with>, it allowed me to do <some goal
| for the company> which means <positive thing for the company>."
| Don't worry if it doesn't affect them directly. Then ask them
| about what they're working on. That positive feedback loop makes
| it possible for you to find the best talent at the company and
| they will start approaching you with questions/information.
| clircle wrote:
| According to this recent article and discussion on HN, you are
| likely making a change for the best. So congrats and take it
| easy!
|
| https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2022/03/being-an-...
| jeromie wrote:
| Very similar career trajectory and move -- just approaching the
| 1-year mark.
|
| In hindsight, I wish I would have:
|
| - Listened more and Talked less in general
|
| - Consistently started with "Why does this happen this way" vs.
| "This isn't the way that the industry does it, and we should aim
| for that"
|
| + The end states I defined were generally correct, but historical
| context matters and informed the route in ways that I would have
| benefitted from knowing about.
|
| - Spent more time helping people realize my perspective on their
| own, vs. just communicating the necessary end-state and the
| justification.
|
| + Even if I'm right in what we need to do, people want to solve
| their own problems and feel ownership for the outcome when
| they've joined the cause on their own
|
| - Really dug into it when contributors failed to meet their
| commitments to me to understand if there was a prioritization
| problem or an alignment problem (or if there's a skill or
| commitment gap in play).
|
| - Remembered that it's just a job, and nobody there is going to
| be at my funeral. It's a transactional relationship that's less
| important than my mental health.
|
| In terms of things I feel I did well with and/or found
| engergizing:
|
| - Lots of new, really smart and talented people in my orbit
|
| - Tons of information and perspective sharing, new reading, new
| insight
|
| - Taking the time to meet people (this was hard over COVID), but
| bi-weekly 1:1s are key. People will generally tell you the (or at
| least their) truth in 1:1 conversations in a way that rarely
| happens in large meetings.
|
| + Chatting with my lunch crew on the daily is where I have
| historically gotten most of the valuable intel and feedback, and
| hashed out long-term strategies for the group or organization.
| It's also where people in my orbit communicate their vision and
| build coalitions around common pain points. I feel kneecapped by
| this and haven't found a good substitute.
|
| + There's really no substitute for sharing a meal with people.
| It's human and important.
|
| I also came away with a deep appreciation for how good many of
| the "invisible" functions at my last job were, and what excellent
| leadership qualities were on display.
| jghn wrote:
| When I've seen "old hands" change jobs, the thing I often see
| them struggle with is the psychology of no longer being the
| domain expert. People underestimate how much deep knowledge they
| possess that is specific to their company. The longer the tenure,
| the more this is true. And most/all of it will be useless at a
| new place.
|
| This is not a bad thing. And it is a good thing to branch out and
| see a broader perspective. But it's hard to prepare one's self
| going from being the person that knows everything about
| everything to being the person that knows nothing about anything.
| heisenbit wrote:
| The old domain thing is totally worthless for a while until it
| is abstracted and linked to the new domain. Then it becomes
| gold when carefully used.
| a1445c8b wrote:
| This is true for me even though I haven't lasted more than 3
| years for each of my previous 3 employers. Domain knowledge, it
| seems to me, is the hardest to get up to speed on because you
| can't google or SO that sh*t!
| mooreds wrote:
| Totally. All you can do is soak up internal documentation and
| map prior knowledge to your current situation.
|
| On the other hand, that new perspective can have value.
| Sometimes things are the way they are for a reason, other
| times it's path dependent, other times it's inertia.
|
| Taking notes with your "new eyes" and thinking about how to
| improve things can help. But don't share until you've had
| some successes and built some credibility.
| rcfox wrote:
| I've struggled with this in every job change, even after my
| first job of 1.5 years: I owned my own little project, and in
| that tiny corner of the company, I was the expert. Going from
| being an expert to onboarding again feels like being forced to
| speak a new language. You know you're smart, but you can't
| articulate it.
| sbayeta wrote:
| This is what makes me really undecided about switching jobs.
| I've been working in the same domain for almost 20 years. I
| think I'm a very competent SWE, but I also think my domain
| knowledge is what really impress my customers.
| mr_beans wrote:
| Can you do the job with your eyes closed at this point? 20
| years is a long investment to throw away, why not just ride
| it out the rest of the way and use your spare energy and
| money to do stuff on the side.
| saalweachter wrote:
| If everyone was a tourist, there'd be no local culture to
| experience.
|
| If you're happy where you are, stay there. Don't get too
| high and mighty, learn what you can from the people passing
| from one domain to another without staying in one spot too
| long, but don't feel pressured to do what they do as if you
| are missing out on an essential experience of life.
| neophyt3 wrote:
| "People underestimate how much deep knowledge they possess that
| is specific to their company." This is very narrow deep
| knowledge which might not be useful in most organization and
| may not be applicable to other jobs
| Xenoamorphous wrote:
| On the other hand it must feel relieving.
| meowfly wrote:
| This strikes home for me. I moved jobs recently after being at
| my last company for 10 years.
|
| I felt pretty overwhelmed at the beginning. Everything from the
| tech, deployment process, style guide, PR process, etc might
| have to be relearned. I had consolidated a lot of access at my
| old company too.
|
| I was really worried that I wasn't producing like I should at
| my seniority. This has since gone away though.
| k8rboi wrote:
| > I was really worried that I wasn't producing like I should
| at my seniority. This has since gone away though.
|
| Absolutely had this in my new role, I'm about to hit a year
| on and have an excellent performance review which has since
| assuaged my concerns of imposter syndrome or having lost my
| touch after spending two years in a public-sector hellhole.
| Went from "Star QB" in an MS shop to "Holy Shit WTF is this
| Kubernetes shit even doing and how do I get my job done."
| Stressed as I may have been, it was temporal and I've gotten
| good lessons from it.
|
| If I have any takeaways from this past year:
|
| _For Managers:_
|
| Add in some amount of check-in one-on-ones to keep folks
| aware of their performance and standing. As good a manager as
| my supervisor is, ours were oriented towards ensuring I was
| happy with the role and not wanting to leave quickly and
| waste the 30K recruiter fee. For that matter, I'm not one[0]
| to go seek validation from others and especially not when
| they're already over burdened with "real" meetings.
|
| _For Engineers:_
|
| Even if you're not "Senior" in terms of $TECHNOLOGY, you're
| (hopefully) Senior in terms of your soft-skills. If you're
| left scratching your head wondering "how the fuck do I get
| this deployed" or "what the fuck is the development cycle" or
| "why the fuck is there an 11 step baby-sitting process for
| the local development workflow" - these are opportunities to
| add in documentation, scripts, or process changes to the
| firm. If you've done your shopping right, they're probably
| amenable to these changes.
|
| Personally, I scripted our local Docker Compose development
| workflow such that one has a clean-slate environment with one
| script, and can build and patch any project's Docker image /
| Docker Compose service with one script as well. Somehow we
| lacked this, but everyone had their cotdamn minds blown when
| I put that out there for feedback - and here I was thinking
| it was some silly scripts they'd likely turn their nose up
| at.
| InvaderFizz wrote:
| This is basically the route I take.
|
| New job, lots of, to me, low hanging fruit ripe for
| automation and documentation. The team has been adrift for
| a long time and all the juniors just accepted broken
| processes as facts of life.
|
| Every time I have someone walk me through the completely
| undocumented process for x, I take notes and mark the best
| candidates for automation.
|
| I then go through the process a second time, adding all the
| api calls and semi-automate the process so instead of
| logging into four different consoles in the browser hunting
| for values and setting minor things in different places,
| you can up front declare seven variables, and just
| copy/paste chucks of code that will perform all the steps
| for you. You are still acting as the error handler.
|
| For low frequency tasks, it usually ends there. For high
| frequency tasks, I take the time to add error handling so
| it can just be part of a pipeline.
|
| It's crazy to me that the team has put up with these
| processes for so long, I've been turning tasks that used to
| take 4-12hours and highly error prone and turning them into
| well documented code copy/paste jobs that takes about 15
| minutes from start to finish, the vast majority of which is
| waiting for a build pipeline to finish.
| walterlb wrote:
| Your username also tells me you have gotten over the "holy
| shit WTF is Kubernetes" part.
|
| I think I'm headed somewhere similar shortly. Hopefully I
| have the same success as you!
| jghn wrote:
| > I was really worried that I wasn't producing like I should
| at my seniority
|
| This is precisely the effect I'm describing. For most tech
| jobs, especially at higher levels, the generic tech knowledge
| can be a fraction of what's necessary to get a job done. Thus
| people notice a drop off in their output and freak out. A
| good senior engineer will pick up the new things quickly, but
| one can't expect to replace 10, 15, 20 years of hard earned
| wisdom in a month or two.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| I hadn't considered this, but it rings true to me. Interesting
| to think about.
| vmception wrote:
| > people underestimate how much deep knowledge they possess
| that is specific to their company
|
| ha! yes
|
| acronyms people think are just known are completely different.
| founders at a new company just throw them around willy nilly
| because they fawn over some specific person's books and
| tweetstorm's for the last 5 years. cultish metrics you or they
| happen to believe in because they heard Google did it once, 10
| years ago.
|
| you name it.
|
| Enjoy!
| intellectronica wrote:
| What seems to work for me and many people is: soon after you
| join, start meeting with many people one on one. First with your
| immediate team, then with people in closely related teams,
| stakeholders, people doing a similar role, people who are a bit
| more senior, etc ... It can be a bit awkward initially to
| schedule these meetings, but almost everyone would be happy to
| have a chat, tell you about themselves, the company, the projects
| they're working on. They will often also tell you about other
| people you should be talking to. Listen well - people will tell
| you what's important, what they would be interested in
| collaborating on, what are some gotchas you should watch out for.
| After a while you'll kinda naturally get a feel for who are "your
| people", so just continue talking to them and find excuses to do
| cool stuff together. Most people are biased towards not doing
| enough of this sort of thing, so unless you know yourself to be
| some kind of hyper-social connector, assume that you're not doing
| enough of that and correct by forcing yourself to do more. A good
| rule of thumb is to meet someone new every day for a few weeks.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Especially right after you start. You don't need a reason
| except "I just started" and you don't have any other
| responsibilities yet.
| DavidPeiffer wrote:
| >What seems to work for me and many people is: soon after you
| join, start meeting with many people one on one.
|
| Very much agree with this one, particularly with remote work.
| Most people get too many emails, and will naturally prioritize
| emails from people they know and have a reputation with
| compared to a new person.
|
| Even quick introductions before meetings as people filter into
| a meeting room. You don't talk about your hobbies and family
| before a meeting starts with 30 people on Zoom, but that's
| certainly permissible with a couple people as people enter the
| room.
| yodsanklai wrote:
| Congratulations and good luck for the switch! I did a similar
| switch about a year ago. I'm glad I did, but it's been
| challenging.
|
| > Technically, I have no doubts to get things done
|
| That's something which caught me a bit off-guard. All tools and
| systems are different. I find myself asking questions to the
| interns who know more than me. It's sometimes worrying (do I
| really deserve my title in the company...)
|
| > How do I make "new friends" at work?
|
| I'm just trying to be a nice guy, keep a positive attitude in all
| circumstances, help other people when I can. Generally, it takes
| a bit of patience to make friends. But eventually, you meet
| people whose personality somehow matches yours and you build a
| network of friends/allies within the company.
|
| This is something I don't do enough because I'm introverted, but
| it's probably good to be pro-active in meeting new people in the
| company. Attend social events, talk to people during breaks and
| so on...
| mettamage wrote:
| What would be the advice that you'd already write to yourself?
| You might spur a couple of HN'ers to riff on what you will say
| yourself ;-)
|
| I've only done 6 to 12 months stints, so no advice from me I'm
| afraid.
| wccrawford wrote:
| IMO, don't "try" to make friends. You'll come off as fake and
| people will notice.
|
| Instead, be yourself, and if you _have_ to try for something, try
| not to upset other people.
|
| Ask for asking Mike for help, just do it. He knows you're new and
| the company has told him to help you get going. You'll stop being
| the clueless new person after you've learned about the company's
| stuff.
| alenmilk wrote:
| If you are used to being the guy everybody goes to it is a big
| change since nobody will depend on you if you are new. But that
| is fine, it takes som time to get recognised in a new work
| environment. If you are skilled it will change in 2-3 months.
| mdm12 wrote:
| There is a lot of good advice here, so I will just add: be a
| pleasant person to work with! It will take you far (and is
| generally the right thing to do anyways :) )
| durnygbur wrote:
| Let me use an anology. What you think will happen is just hopping
| from one train to another. What might happen is they'll kick you
| out of the train on entering one, there is no other train
| stopping, and you might have to abandon the trains altogether. We
| are cool folks over here but in professional environment if there
| is a clueless new person and they can be used somehow, then it
| unfortunately happens.
| nvarsj wrote:
| I try to get involved and be seen and make connections. If you're
| working in the office, that means grabbing lunch with your
| coworkers, maybe getting drinks after work - socialising
| basically. Things become much easier when you get over that new
| person phase, and you are comfortable approaching others and vice
| versa.
|
| For fully remote it's a much bigger challenge. I try to get
| involved in social slack channels and connect with people that
| way. Also finding ways to talk face to face on Zoom etc goes a
| long way.
| Aeolun wrote:
| > be seen
|
| This is underrated. Especially when remote, you have to
| constantly remind people (and especially your manager) that
| you're doing something.
|
| You don't have to be annoying about it, but let people know
| when something is done instead of just changing the Jira
| status.
| [deleted]
| vertigolimbo wrote:
| Been there, done that. 10+ different jobs in a span of 15 years
| (contracting).
|
| Let's start with the basics. Be a nice person, approachable and
| someone easy to work with. This will remove the barriers and your
| co-workers will be more willing to contact you first! Honestly,
| these qualities will get you far.
|
| Get "into" the company's culture. There might be internal pain
| points (ask questions, people will be more than willing to share
| their pains. If you listen you will easily make connections).
| Same goes for the inside jokes.
|
| Finally, from experience I know the first to three months are the
| most difficult ones. And that's fine! Accept it and don't be
| harsh on yourself. You sometimes will be doubting yourself,
| feeling low, but all of that will pass. It always does!
| btbuildem wrote:
| I don't think your situation is comparable to OP's: contractor
| with frequent client changes vs full timer with an order of
| magnitude longer tenure in one place.
| OJFord wrote:
| > Been there, done that. 10+ different jobs in a span of 15
| years.
|
| I don't mean any offence, but you haven't really then have you
| - that's quite a different situation, your average tenure is
| less than 1.5y, more than tenfold less than OP's.
|
| I imagine (haven't done it myself) it's psychologically quite
| different to leave somewhere you're so established, and start
| somewhere new when it's so long since you've done that. You're
| used to it. I'm not saying it doesn't have challenges, but I
| think they're at least different, and anyway you're used to
| embracing them.
| tclancy wrote:
| That isn't necessarily true. If you contract, it can be like
| that, but you're also under pressure to come up to speed
| faster than a full-time employee. I've done short gigs and
| worked places for 2, 3 and 7 years and the ramp up is the
| same. I started a new job in January that I hope to be at for
| years and my approach was the same as suggested here. Be
| self-effacing about your ignorance, don't walk in deciding
| you know better about X just because of how your last company
| did it and find pain points that bother everyone but haven't
| been addressed because there is no stakeholder to drive them.
| The upside to being useless the first few months is you can
| use the time to clean out the Nemean stables or whatever mess
| is lying around.
| wbond wrote:
| Off topic, but nice to see you around here after years
| since we've met in person! Also nice to see other engineers
| from NH represented.
|
| I've also done gigs for 7, 5, 2 years, one for 8 months and
| now I'm 2 months into my new gig. I would concur that ramp
| up speed has been pretty similar at most. I'm not sure the
| first move (after 7 years) was harder than the others.
|
| Honestly, I think it tends to be harder emotionally to walk
| away from the situation. From the familiarity to the
| network, it can feel weird leaving that all behind, even if
| there are obvious reasons you need to leave. Once you've
| made the break, starting new tends to be similar: spending
| a few months getting familiar with the exact tech stack,
| the people, projects and business. Usually after a handful
| of months you'll start feeling in the groove and know
| enough of the environment to feel like you are making
| serious contributions.
| carterschonwald wrote:
| Should I be worried for ST without you?:)
|
| Congrats on new things! I just switched to a new thing
| myself!
| wbond wrote:
| Nah, ST is going well. Jon is the mastermind behind it
| all, and Ben has been doing excellent work, and Tim is
| rounds out the ST team. On the Merge side, Dylan and
| David are hard at work. I think Sublime HQ is hiring in
| the Sydney area also.
|
| That said, I am still contributing the community, albeit
| a little slower. Hoping to have a first-rate Swift syntax
| done in the next month or two, plus continuing to plug
| away on some Package Control work.
|
| Congrats on the new role and continuing to push yourself!
| tclancy wrote:
| Hey! Yeah, I started a new gig at the beginning of this
| year and the only thing different is this is far and away
| the largest tech company I have worked at. The one thing
| I am struggling with is coming to grips with the scale
| and accepting I will never have my head or hands around
| the whole thing.
|
| One other point worth repeating came from a friend who
| was a Marine: "You have 6 months before you're part of
| the problem." Once you are on your feet anywhere, do try
| to create the change your teammates have been desperate
| for but lack the enthusiasm to push for. Use your New
| Person Karma up-front.
| garrickvanburen wrote:
| Riffing off the first few months being the most difficult: you
| may not even know how you can best contribute for the first 3
| months. That's ok, it'll come to you. As others have mentioned,
| the most valuable thing you can do in that time is understand
| current state at the company (culture, processes, etc) so
| having 1:1 conversations just cuz you're new is one way to do
| this. Also - maybe find where the async conversations are
| happening (eg Slack) and reading the archives
| vertigolimbo wrote:
| Spot on.
| paulcole wrote:
| > Finally, from experience I know the first to three months are
| the most difficult ones
|
| Compared to the OP, your situation doesn't tell you this _at
| all_. It tells you that you know _for you_ , the first to three
| months are the most difficult ones.
|
| You have no way to know what years 4-6 are like or years 8-10
| or years 14-15.
|
| The problem OP has is very different from the one a job-hopper
| has. You're experiencing months 1-3 with a plan of leaving in 1
| year. OP is likely thinking of months 1-3 with years 5-10 in
| mind.
| vertigolimbo wrote:
| It's true. I don't know what years 8-10 feel like. But author
| is not asking that.
|
| I gave advice for author's question: _How do you go from the
| "new clueless person at work" to "oh hey Mike, I'll need your
| help this afternoon"?_
|
| My advice merely helps the author to speed up the process to
| get there.
|
| In addition, I never join and plan on leaving in 1 year. In
| contracting, sometimes you work a month, sometimes 4 years.
| But you always go all in, regardless of the assignment.
| paulcole wrote:
| > I never join and plan on leaving in 1 year
|
| Just like the scorpion didn't plan to sting the frog?
| vertigolimbo wrote:
| Why so much negativity? Are you aware that there's this
| whole side called "contracting"? Agile made it very
| dynamic - sometimes assignment is completed sooner that
| agreed because company's priorities change. Sometimes you
| stay longer because they need your help.
|
| I've been to many gigs where burned out or incompetent
| permanent (!) employees made a complete mess almost
| running company to a ground. Incompetent leads, even CTOs
| desperate for a fix.
|
| Yet, as a contractor you come and help the companies *
|
| * there are incompetent or selfish contractors as well.
| vmception wrote:
| > OP is likely thinking of months 1-3 with years 5-10 in
| mind.
|
| You don't know that
| nuclearnice1 wrote:
| What are the likely consequences of this difference ?
| paulcole wrote:
| If I'm going to know you for less than a year before I
| bounce, it's easier to tell you what I think you want to
| hear instead of being myself and being honest with you. I
| don't need to be _that_ concerned with the consequences of
| my actions. Everything I do is gonna be somebody else's
| problem soon enough.
|
| I can probably keep some kind of fiction together long
| enough to get to my next VC-funded shitshow gig.
|
| But if I do that, after 2,3,4,7,12 years, it's going to be
| obvious to the people I work with I'm a fake weirdo who's
| miserable to work with and not a genuine person. This will
| be true even if nobody else works there for 15 years --
| it'll get passed down from new hire to new hire.
| SimonPStevens wrote:
| My experience was the opposite of this (not saying yours
| is wrong, just that it might be different for different
| people)
|
| I did a 7 year stint as a contractor in which I worked at
| 7 different places, plus multiple smaller ad-hoc
| projects. Most contracts started with 1-3 month
| engagements. Most were also extended multiple times. But
| I never made any assumptions about extensions.
|
| Knowing that I was only ever going to be somewhere short
| term made it a while lot easier to be be fully honest
| with people, instead of just telling them what I thought
| they wanted to hear. I found it put me in a great
| position to point out problems or give advice and
| recommendations for improvements based on my experience
| without any worries about upsetting anyone who was
| personally invested in the existing status quo. Because
| the consequences of the personal relationships weren't so
| critical, I would be leaving anyway
|
| Knowing I was only there temporarily also made me much
| more conscious of writing up or handing over knowledge of
| the things I worked on. I always tried to make sure I was
| building up the client to succeed after I left.
|
| I always wanted to do a great job, so doing something
| poorly because I didn't have any long term consequences
| was never really a factor. Many clients reached out and
| offered repeat business too, so the lack of long term
| consequences isn't really true anyway. If you do a good
| job, it adds to your future revenue stream.
|
| I try to carry this mentality forward now I've returned
| to more conventional employment. Being honest about
| improvements needed, and working to help the team succeed
| in the long term.
| vmception wrote:
| > I can probably keep some kind of fiction together long
| enough to get to my next VC-funded shitshow gig.
|
| ha, love to see this so pragmatically written
| roflc0ptic wrote:
| I'd comment that we don't know why so many job changes, so
| whether or not they're _planning_ on leaving is conjecture.
| roflc0ptic wrote:
| Do you feel like that number of job changes has limited your
| career opportunities? I had a string of years where I changed
| jobs several times for fairly good reasons (substantially
| better paying jobs, family illness, spent a year trying to get
| a non-profit off the ground), but it left my resume feeling
| kinda blotchy, and I've resolved to try to stay in my current
| (very awesome) job for at least 4 years (~1.5 down so far).
|
| People have commented on the blotchiness directly, so I do
| wonder how many conversations I just haven't had because of it.
| vmception wrote:
| You can remove gigs from your resume.
| roflc0ptic wrote:
| I mostly do, but then I have large gaps in employment.
| vertigolimbo wrote:
| That's not true. If you had an emergency appendix surgery in
| the middle of the nowhere and there was only one surgeon,
| would you question how many hospitals he worked at before? If
| you are good at your job and can prove it, then it doesn't
| matter. We, tech people, have it really easy compared to
| other jobs.
|
| If anything, it's the opposite _. I have more career
| opportunities than ever:
|
| 1. You learn new skills -> you become more employable
|
| 2. You leave on good terms -> most of your previous companies
| are waiting for you with open arms (more opportunities,
| safety net, upper hand in negotiating salary)
|
| 3. You discover yourself -> what you want, what are you good
| at and where can you go next.
|
| _I would take it with a grain of salt. Contracting and living
| in a big city is very different to small towns and/or
| permanent roles.
| metafunctor wrote:
| Interesting that you see yourself as being more employable.
| And if you say so, probably it's true! So, I'm wondering
| what you bring to the teams you're hired into. When I hire,
| staying at previous jobs for only 1--2 years is a red flag.
| And you've done it 10 times!
|
| We're looking for people who would like to stay with us
| for, say 3-5 years, at least. While our tech stack,
| culture, etc. isn't that special, it still takes time to
| acclimate.
|
| Perhaps you are a very talented specialist in very narrow
| niche? People like that are always useful, and can skip
| between jobs as they please. Although, I'd probably do
| stuff like that on a consulting basis, instead of a
| salaried employee.
| vertigolimbo wrote:
| I have amended my comment to highlight that I've been
| mostly contracting.
|
| I firmly believe you are looking at the short side of the
| stick. Ask yourself, what can _you_ do for people to stay
| for 3-5 years? You don 't need special stack or culture,
| just listen to individual's needs (plenty of books
| written on this subject).
|
| Some places I worked at, the time just flew. I honestly
| wanted to stay there longer because the whole assignment
| was like a Swiss watch.
|
| 1-2 years is a red flag, but it's _mostly_ a red flag of
| a bad company, not the employee. I base this on my
| experience and interviewing devs.
| entropyie wrote:
| I just changed jobs after 8 years. I am one month into the new
| gig. What it did was spend the first two weeks solid, doing one-
| to-ones with all key stakes holders, and taking copious notes
| from each and every one. That includes engineering managers, team
| leads, architects, DevOps people, sales, legal, HR. Ask what's
| working well, what's not, top gripes. Talk to people who are
| resigning for exit interviews, lots of good inside info there.
| Then volunteer for crappy jobs to bid trust. Customer support
| escalations, documentation. This gives you a reason to dig and
| ask questions in a pointed way, and builds trust.
| DavidPeiffer wrote:
| >How do you go from the "new clueless person at work" to "oh hey
| Mike, I'll need your help this afternoon"?
|
| There's a people aspect to it, a time aspect, and a technical
| skills aspect.
|
| For people, you need to develop rapport. A lot of struggle at the
| beginning is getting to know the right people. This is easier in
| the office where introductions are more fluid and you run into
| people.
|
| On the time front, you become an expert on the systems a company
| employes as your tenure increases. You help design systems and
| understand the tradeoffs in the decisions that are made rather
| than walking in and saying "This is odd and I've never seen it
| before. Why is it done this way?", with answer quality varying on
| how long ago the decision was made. I've worked at multiple
| companies where people retire to start collecting their pension
| and come back a few weeks or months later working as full time
| consultants because they have deep knowledge of why things are
| setup like they are, the hiccups that will be encountered during
| a system change, etc.
|
| You seem confident in the technical aspect, but certainly if you
| put out work product that doesn't perform well or isn't
| documented well, people aren't going to proactively be coming to
| you with questions.
| chernevik wrote:
| New people have permission to ask lots of questions, embrace
| this.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| Humility. You have a great skillset, I'm sure. But approach every
| thing at first like a junior dev on his first job, with respect
| and an open mind, trying to learn the current state of affairs.
| The pain points and places where you can add value will present
| themselves to you if you take a beginner's mindset, and you'll
| see where to strike. And that'll really be appreciated.
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