[HN Gopher] Should you work fixed hours, even if you have a flex...
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Should you work fixed hours, even if you have a flexible schedule?
Author : elazzabi_
Score : 104 points
Date : 2022-03-18 09:00 UTC (14 hours ago)
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| josefresco wrote:
| Business still operates Monday through Friday, 9 AM to 5 PM where
| I'm from (Northeast US). While I can work anytime, anywhere my
| clients don't, and therefore I work _normal_ hours. I also have
| kids so that pretty much decides my schedule for the majority of
| the year.
| darkerside wrote:
| There's a difference between working fixed hours, working a fixed
| amount of time, and working within boundaries. I think it's a
| level you work your way up.
|
| Early career, just work fixed hours. You don't have a sense for
| what is reasonable yet, and this is a good way to build up a work
| ethic and understand your limits.
|
| Once you're comfortable there, tweak your hours as needed. This
| might mean working the same irregular hours every day (parents
| can schedule around their kids) or just making sure that when you
| hit a number, you call it a day (wake up early and work so you
| can go hiking in the afternoon).
|
| As you get to know yourself better, you'll know when you've put
| in good day's work, when you have capacity to keep going, and
| when you need to dial it back.
|
| This last stage is important if you aspire to leadership roles.
| In these roles, you are never done, there is always more you can
| do to improve your business, so you need to find your sustainable
| boundary and stick to it.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Unless you own the company, it's not _your_ business. Act
| accordingly.
| ysavir wrote:
| What's your implication here? That non-owners are lesser and
| therefor should bend to the wants of the owner? That only
| owners have a right to the lifestyle they want?
| gumby wrote:
| I think scarface74 was making the opposite claim: it's not
| your company so fulfil your obligation but don't put the
| company's interest ahead of your own.
| Scarblac wrote:
| There was an implication that in leadership roles there is
| always something more to be done, and you have to watch out
| you don't do too much.
|
| But that's true for non-leadership roles just as much.
|
| So I read it as, even if you're in a leadership position,
| the company isn't yours, so you don't need to act as if it
| is.
| gunfighthacksaw wrote:
| That's one way to look at it, but the opposite from how I
| read it.
|
| My interpretation is not to ruin my health for a company I
| hold less than 0.5% stock (options) in. The amount of skin
| I have in this game is not enough to make me sacrifice the
| little pleasures that keep me sane.
| ysavir wrote:
| Thanks! That reading makes sense.
| Silhouette wrote:
| _My interpretation is not to ruin my health for a company
| I hold less than 0.5% stock (options) in._
|
| I agree but don't ruin your health for a company you do
| hold significant stock in either.
|
| There is hard work and pulling your weight. There is
| having faith in your vision and giving it your best shot.
| And then there is being just plain stupid and making
| yourself ill or worse for something that is still only
| about money in the end.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Even if you own 20% of the company, statistically the
| chances of it being worth anything besides toilet paper
| is slim.
| verve_rat wrote:
| I believe they are stating the opposite.
|
| If it is not your company, if you don't own a large share
| of it, then work your hours and switch off. Any bullshit
| about putting in extra work because you are in a
| "leadership" position is just that, bullshit to extract
| more value from you and transfer it to the company.
|
| Do what you are paid for, no more, no less.
| _acco wrote:
| Great attitude to ensure you never own a company.
| WarChortle wrote:
| This whole grinding is the only way to make it attitude
| has to stop. Do the work you get paid for. I imagine if
| someone started their own business, their attitude would
| be vastly different then working for a company on a fixed
| salary.
| plainnoodles wrote:
| Great attitude to make sure you understand the realities
| of the system and protect yourself from being exploited
| by it more than is already inherent in the relationship
| between wage labor and capital.
| cosmojg wrote:
| Owning a company is fairly trivial. Just fill out the
| requisite paperwork[1] and boom, you've got a company.
| Making it profitable is the hard part.
|
| [1] https://corp.delaware.gov/howtoform/
| ISL wrote:
| Creating a company is easy. Staying on top of
| taxation/regulatory filings is more difficult.
| verve_rat wrote:
| The vast, vast, majority of people will never own a
| significant portion of a company. Outside of normal
| investments and retirement funds most people will not own
| a company in the sense we mean here.
| vangelis wrote:
| I do own my own company. It's pretty easy.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I make a lot more than most business owners as a mid
| level employee at BigTech without the headaches.
|
| I worked for a startup that went out of business. You
| know how much sleep I lost when they were struggling?
| When they did finally kick the bucket, I called a few
| people in my network, got another job and kept it moving.
| gmadsen wrote:
| I mean do what makes you happy. But I attribute nearly
| all of my promotions and success to doing work I am
| explicitly not paid for.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I do too. But not with promotions. With the ability to
| job hop. But it's not to "help the company".
| darkerside wrote:
| I'm confused. You really think a C-level exec is thinking
| the way you just described?
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| The C-level distinction is irrelevant.
|
| The question is business owner or not. While some CEOs
| are also business owners, many are not, particularly for
| publicly traded companies.
|
| If you are the _owner_ of a startup, constancy, or
| plumbing company you put in the hours you want to
| maximize company profit. It is your profit!
|
| If you are an employee, (CEO or otherwise), you put the
| hours you want to maximize your compensation. If putting
| in 80 hours vs 40 hours has no impact on your pay stub,
| don't do it. you don't keep the extra profit...
| darkerside wrote:
| It was just an example, not a distinction. But most
| C-levels do have nontrivial equity in their company.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Yeah that's totally true. They often get huge Equity
| packages so they behave more like the owners and less
| like employees. I think this underscores the situational
| incentive differences between owners and normal
| employees. As a rank-and-file employee, if I put in 2x to
| work, I don't see to the profit. That extra profit or
| efficiency goes to the major equity holders and owners.
| suifbwish wrote:
| Ah The life of the C level, making commits directly to
| master and running your IDE with the brightest whitest
| background your monitors game mode can produce.
| rjbwork wrote:
| Probably not...c-level execs are usually owners of the
| business.
| verve_rat wrote:
| I'm assuming C-levels get paid a butt load with the
| expectation they will do whatever it takes.
|
| They are doing what they are paid for. If I get offered
| tens of millions of dollars a year I would also consider
| putting in more than a 40 hour week. But I don't, so I
| don't.
| thomascgalvin wrote:
| I read that as "don't kill yourself for someone else's
| profit."
| suifbwish wrote:
| If you own your own company your hours are whatever it takes
| to get your bank account where you want it no more no less.
| dasil003 wrote:
| People say this all the time, but I think it's an arbitrary
| and self-defeating perspective.
|
| First of all, if you want to maximize personal benefit, it's
| not clear that owning your own business is the way to go.
| Sure, there's a higher ceiling, but many rank and file
| engineers at big tech are making $1M+ due to stock
| appreciation without working particularly hard. By contrast,
| building a business that you can even pay yourself $100k is
| non-trivial--either you raise money and take on a whole new
| level of stress that comes with investor expectations, or you
| do the bootstrap grind which has a high chance of failure and
| almost no chance of keeping it to a solid 40 hours/week.
|
| Second, if you have equity comp you are in fact an owner. You
| might not have much direct impact to that number, but at
| least your interests are aligned. And even if you don't have
| equity, the quality of your work reflects on both your
| reputation as well as your actual skill development. Of
| course you should truly evaluate whether your company is
| treating you fairly and expectations are realistic, but do so
| objectively instead of starting from a management-vs-labor
| ideology.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Read one of my replies below. I'm not saying you should own
| your own business to maximize your income as oppose to
| spending a few months "grinding leetCode (tm)
| r/cscareerquestions". Not that I did to get into BigTech.
| But that's another story.
|
| Equity in a private company is statistically meaningless
| and any one person being able to move the needle on a 1.6
| trillion dollar market cap company is negligible.
| dasil003 wrote:
| You're missing the larger point which is that if you make
| your money by working for other people, your reputation
| and your skillset in that environment matters. Yes, you
| should look out for yourself first, but that doesn't
| require taking an adversarial stance to management. To
| the contrary, if you make some effort to understand your
| manager and the broader business context, you can reap
| much larger rewards. Obviously that assumes your boss is
| not a muppet, but in that case you have bigger problems.
|
| The idea that you just job hop to promos is currently
| true for the low end, but there's a glass ceiling there.
| As a hiring manager, someone who got promoted to staff+
| in a reputable company with a high bar is an order of
| magnitude stronger signal than someone who was hired
| directly into that level at the same company. Also, the
| current market and comp for software engineers is a
| result of the decade bull run of big tech. This will not
| continue forever. I was around during the dotcom bubble
| as well, and I can tell you, when the music stops you
| won't wanna be the guy who has a series of two year
| stints with progressively higher salaries but no close
| contacts who will fight to hire you.
| RussianCow wrote:
| > Yes, you should look out for yourself first, but that
| doesn't require taking an adversarial stance to
| management.
|
| I don't think the OP ever suggested this? Unless I'm
| missing something, here was the original comment:
|
| > Unless you own the company, it's not _your_ business.
| Act accordingly.
|
| "Act accordingly" does not mean "don't ever put any
| effort in". My interpretation was more along the lines
| of, "Don't stress yourself out over someone else's
| company", which is great general advice.
| dasil003 wrote:
| Well this is a reply to a reply, so it's more to clarify
| where my point was missed.
|
| But to address this directly, I don't think owner/not-
| owner is the right mental model. Having been on both
| sides, you don't want to stress yourself out even if you
| _are_ the owner. What 's healthy is to focus on what you
| can control and try to get the best outcome you can.
| Using lack of ownership stake or impact as a reason for
| choosing any behavior just doesn't make sense to me as a
| first principle.
|
| I realize this may not make sense to people who have
| spent their entire career in giant corporate moral mazes,
| but for me it's actually pretty important to have some
| integrity around my work, regardless of any lack of
| control and corporate bullshit I have to deal with.
| scarface74 wrote:
| No for profit company is inherently "moral". Everything
| is in pursuit of either profit or an "exit".
| scarface74 wrote:
| I never said or implied to act adversarial toward
| management. I have respected my last 5 managers and still
| meet them for lunch when I get the chance. I became
| friends with two of my former managers _after_ leaving
| the company.
|
| Let's talk about the "glass ceiling". I'll start off with
| the corp dev side of the world where most people work.
|
| I know a few guys who are in their late 40s (as am I) who
| eschewed management and have been moving around between
| various corp dev jobs for 20 years and have kept their
| skills up. They have never made more than the mid $100s.
| They have wives that are working. Their wives are making
| between $70K and mid to high 100s. They live in a major
| city in the south. Do you know how far that can go making
| $250K+ in most cities? You are already well within the
| top decile of households[1].
|
| Now let's look on the BigTech side. A returning intern I
| mentored last year, got a return offer making $150K
| (consulting department). They can live anywhere in the
| US. They are already earning more than 92% of individuals
| in the US.
|
| On a more personal note, I was a senior corp dev bopping
| around between unknown companies like the first set of
| developers until 2020. I fell into a role into the cloud
| consulting department in BigTech. I still work remotely
| making about what an SDE2 makes. Guess how much I'm
| stressing about becoming even a "senior consultant"?
|
| Those friends in corp dev could easily get a job as at
| least an SA working where I work. But they weren't
| interested. Once you have "enough" making more money and
| promotions isn't that important.
|
| As the _74_ implies, I was also around during the bubble.
| It wasn't that bad working in regular old corp dev where
| you were just another employee at a profitable company.
| Even then I was making $70K in 2000 - twice the
| individual income at the time.
|
| [1] https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/
| Koshkin wrote:
| Well, when you accept a job, you make a promise. So do what
| you must to get the job done then, on time.
| scarface74 wrote:
| I make a promise to trade around 40 hours of labor for
| money each week.
| emaginniss wrote:
| You make a promise to do a reasonable job. Sometimes it's
| the company that makes a promise for you (feature and
| deadline specified) and then it's not really your
| responsibility to complete the promise.
| soperj wrote:
| You must have not had shit management yet, or are cruising
| for burn out.
| scarface74 wrote:
| Yes, and when the pay/bullshit ratio goes in the wrong
| direction, I get another job.
| vangelis wrote:
| Little did they know the promise being talked about the
| promise sales makes to customers.
| k__ wrote:
| Depends on how good you are at organizing and how much you have
| to work to pay for your life.
|
| I have to work 10-20h a week, which is rather easy to distribute
| around the week.
|
| But some people have to work 40-100h a week, which can get
| problematic if they don't plan them early on.
| boxfoxdox1 wrote:
| I started to notice that what is important for me is how I mange
| my focus hours in a work day. By that I mean hours where I
| actually generate a product ( writing code, archtectiing etc) as
| there are days in which I spend just in them meeting and that is
| exausing.
|
| The reson for this is mostly my feeling of days work done, If I
| dont do at least 3-4h of higly productive focus time I get this
| feeling of an incomlete day and tend to get lazier over time.
|
| So, bar the unforseen, I try to have that checked of my list and
| it was very beneficial in increasing my efficiency but also being
| ready to endure meetings.
|
| Anyone else feeling odly exhausted after a meeting but not after
| hours of code?
| foxbarrington wrote:
| I've seen a lot of new-to-remote engineers get themselves in
| trouble with this. The ideal case is that you can just work
| whenever and submit/review any PRs asynchronously.
|
| What happens instead is that they hit a problem and are blocked
| or spinning their wheels at 2am because nobody else is awake to
| help them. Alternatively, they toss something over the fence,
| disappear, and their work is useless for another full day until
| they address a comment or last-minute issue.
| mkl95 wrote:
| If you have a flexible schedule, usually your coworkers / bosses
| will expect you to be flexible to some degree. Whether that's
| positive or negative depends on your expectations and your
| employer's culture. Some companies idea of flexibility is pretty
| linear and predictable, while others are all over the place.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| I am most productive fixed hours (5 am to around 11am) but I
| usually work flexible because of 'life'. So then I get around to
| 7-8 hours a day instead of doing the same work in 4-6 hours. That
| is ok for me.
| MattPalmer1086 wrote:
| This is the sort of thing that's just going to be different for
| everyone.
|
| I personally hate fixed hours. I rest when I need to, work when I
| have focus. I fit all the aspects of my life in when it's best
| for me.
|
| Some people seem to thrive on regularity and order, which is also
| fine.
| cpach wrote:
| Indeed. One should always be sceptical about the idea of "one
| size fits all". That's rarely the case.
| Tobu wrote:
| Fixed hours are convenient in that they allow you to reject non-
| work demands over work time or work demands over non-work time.
| jmyeet wrote:
| This is really a question of the value of having a routine.
| Routines are a habit-forming exercise and are useful.
|
| One thing that's often ignored in such discussions is how your
| habits affect other people. Chances are you're not holed up in a
| closet coding in a silo. You're dealing with other people. There
| will be varying needs fo synchronous communication. Your
| predictability will help other people do what they need to do.
| asicsp wrote:
| > _Chances are you 're not holed up in a closet coding in a
| silo. You're dealing with other people._
|
| I work for myself and having a routine works the best to be
| productive for me. I suppose it depends on how one handles
| uncertainty.
| amcoastal wrote:
| wink wrote:
| I very much prefer fixed hours while keeping some leeway. If
| nothing is planned or extraordinary happens, I like to start at
| 8-8:30 and then do my normal hours, but I do like the flexibility
| of starting later when there's something happening in the morning
| or leave early sometimes. But I think in most teams I've worked
| I've been one of the more boring "probably available at the
| default times" person. But I think it 90% boils down to the fact
| that I like to finish early. If I was just doing 4h per day I
| could do the "start at noon" thing, but I would probably still
| try to be done by 2pm - and this is not related to liking or
| disliking my current job, even if I love it I prefer to finish at
| 5 over 8.
| lambic wrote:
| This is similar to the common advice of "always get dressed
| before you start work". Maybe that's helpful to a lot of people,
| but I get just as much done in pyjamas.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| I find keeping a regular timetable, even when I don't need to, is
| beneficial to my mental rythm and body clock. Too much
| reactive/responsive work puts you on permenant alert.
| dazc wrote:
| As someone prone to procrastination, I find keeping a regular
| routine essential. I tried flexible working but it just became an
| excuse for doing nothing.
| arnvidr wrote:
| Fixed hours work for me. Obviously it helps with keeping up with
| colleagues, but it also somewhat automatically puts me in "work
| mode" when the clock is there. Being "regular" also helps with
| goodwill from the employer when I now and then need/want to take
| extreme advantage of the flexible hours.
| raunometsa wrote:
| I've been keeping a list of remote companies who offer flexible
| hours here if anyone is interested:
| https://remotehunt.com/remote-companies-with-flexible-workin...
|
| Let me know how to improve this!
| Semaphor wrote:
| I've been working remote with flexible hours since 2008. Back
| when I was younger, I preferred flexible. I'd often sleep in, and
| work late. Nowadays, I wake up between 4 and 5, start working at
| 6, and finish around 14. Sometimes this gets moved around a bit,
| but mostly it's fixed.
| xmaayy wrote:
| I found that working really early is a key to enjoying remote
| work. Being done by 2PM lets me get out and do things in
| daylight regardless of season.
| Semaphor wrote:
| My boss is very different, he starts working between 8 and 12
| and finishes late at night. But he tends to take longer lunch
| breaks. And he technically works in the office, but the
| distance from his home is only about 10 meters ;)
| ge96 wrote:
| Personal opinion
|
| Until I'm free (FU money) seems have to stick to 9-5. Especially
| if you coordinate/work with other people at normal business
| hours.
|
| I develop/maintain the tech/servers and I was sleeping during
| business hours one time and something broke... yeah. Panic like
| "it's broken help" but I was not there.
|
| My problem is my sleep pattern keeps shifting... I'll get back on
| 9-5 then I overshoot it, I'll force myself to stay up to the next
| day so I can sleep just before normal time and wake up normally
| eg. before 9 AM.
|
| The goal will be to not care/not need to abide by 9-5.
|
| Or get another person that is like me so they can cover/replace
| me.
| a_c wrote:
| I agree with the article. Either you working for yourself or
| working as employee, it is important to have a rhythm. It is for
| both mental and physical preparation. For me, I turned all my
| commute time into exercise, waking up 3 hours earlier, not waking
| up later than usual when not working and shortene my working
| hour. It felt so good
| pdimitar wrote:
| I always preferred flexible hours and still mostly do, however I
| have a lot of stuff to juggle in my personal life and I found
| that just allocating a few hours in 2 or 3 slots in my day helps
| me achieve more.
|
| So I started doing that. Gym's over, I got my meal, rested for an
| hour, started feeling energized and I am like "OK, time for a
| 3-4h work session". I make tea and prepare a 2L of water bottle
| next to me and I get to it. When I feel even little tired, I stop
| and rest for a bit, maybe eat again. Rinse and repeat. Works
| pretty well for me during the last year or so.
|
| So if you're flexible hours advocate I'd say combine both. You
| might not work 8h in one sitting but it will still pay off huge
| dividends to your mental health to have allocated time slots for
| focused work.
| browningstreet wrote:
| I work very fixed hours. If anyone needs me outside of that,
| fine... but I have an "online and working" start and end date,
| every day.
|
| I've worked in start-ups where people come and go at random
| hours, including the founders. Consistency hasn't always been
| treated as a positive trait.
|
| I'm a bit older now, I work in the enterprise, I WFH, I keep my
| set hours. Some in my current enterprise have "unlimited
| vacation". They tend to keep very inconsistent working schedules.
| It's a mixed org in that sense.
|
| It started because I never wanted to miss my gym times. I work
| out before work but don't alter that schedule for anything.
| hericium wrote:
| I have trouble focusing and flexible hours help me avoid wasting
| work-incapable time on "being at work" (and not doing any). I
| never billed customers for additional time so was wasting a lot
| of it on attempts to get some work done, when I couldn't
| concentrate. Later I was spending additional time on doing actual
| work.
|
| I'm doing flexible remote for a few years now and never been more
| productive. Less stress from "I can't concentrate" frustration,
| tidy backlog, more and better work done in less time. More time
| for other customers or side projects, hobbies and family/social.
|
| I'm trying not to be indispensable. I'm there when I'm needed but
| there is no constant "being on call" feeling.
| sdoering wrote:
| Sounds great. What did you do? How did you structure client
| communications to reduce this 'being on call' feeling, if I may
| ask.
|
| That is something I struggle with currently. Working a full-
| time job and freelancing on the side as well.
| hericium wrote:
| I realized SRE is not for me and started grabbing
| development-like projects and agreements with longer time
| allotted. I document my work in a way allowing others do
| changes or continue without me being required to decrypt
| anything.
|
| The communication question is tricky. It's smooth when it's
| there but I think I kind of act in a way that accents
| _outside_ in _outside contractor_.
|
| I try to soak as little as possible into corporate structures
| and from the start show that me not being there is not a
| problem. It's different with every client or company but I
| always mention upfront focusing issues. Never an issue in EU
| but some companies in the US looked down on ADHD as some kind
| of insanity.
|
| I bring results, and in time. In the end it's about being
| more worth than trouble.
| raptorraver wrote:
| This is inspiring!
|
| I just started as a freelancer month ago and it's hard for
| me to get out from 9-5 mindset. I'm not yet sure if I'm
| expected to put in full hours or just do my best. At the
| beginning I worked full days but past couple weeks I've
| billed 6-7 hours a day with the same input as before. I'm
| also having ADD but haven't brought it up. Still the
| honeymoon phase of the new project so it's quite easy to
| get immersed with my super focus.
| sdoering wrote:
| Wow. Cool. Like that approach. Two questions.
|
| - SRE? - outside in outside contractor?
|
| Not sure what these mean.
|
| Thanks an awful lot so far.
| Scarblac wrote:
| I also can't always focus (I am human), but that's why I want
| to have fixed hours. Sometimes the non-focused hours are during
| work and sometimes during my own time. That's fair.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Hahaha yes. I ended up with a different balance but I respect
| this. Why would I optimize my days so that my employer gets
| all of my most focused, productive, engaged time and energy.
| It's a limited resource. Don't I deserve some of that too? My
| family?
| cpfohl wrote:
| I've worked remotely for 9 years now. I've worked at jobs with
| 100% flexible hours for 6 of those. My approach is always
| changing depending on my life circumstance and the time zones
| involved.
|
| Your home life (significant other or no? Children? Age of
| children?) wildly changes the calculus.
|
| I believe my success in flexible remote work is directly a result
| of my ability to adapt to either scenario.
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