[HN Gopher] Microsoft is testing ads in the Windows 11 File Expl...
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Microsoft is testing ads in the Windows 11 File Explorer
Author : DemiGuru
Score : 374 points
Date : 2022-03-14 18:14 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bleepingcomputer.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bleepingcomputer.com)
| datavirtue wrote:
| Never thought I would say this...Apple here I come.
| p0d wrote:
| This makes me nervous. I am realising we are at the end of a
| giant saas experiment. Get users, monetise them later. If
| Microsoft take the OS down this route then I am offski. It's not
| about parting with cash, it's about forcing crap on people who
| don't want it.
| partiallypro wrote:
| This is nonsensical, I am a pretty big Microsoft advocate, but
| there is no need in this. Whatever bonehead in Microsoft thought
| of this should be fired.
| jason0597 wrote:
| What does being a Microsoft Advocate entail exactly?
| pessimizer wrote:
| Not a Microsoft Advocate, a Microsoft advocate.
| parkingrift wrote:
| Shilling on places like HN, Reddit, Twitter?
| partiallypro wrote:
| I really like Windows, Azure and O365 and believe they have
| no real competition, especially when paired together. I can
| install Ubuntu or other Linux distros on my Windows PC,
| connect to my Azure VM or container easily and O365 is just
| simply unmatched, as hard as others try. So I advocate Azure
| and O365 especially and am harshly critical of Apple/Google.
| Microsoft generally handles the cloud aspect very well but
| seems still a bit lost on the OS side. Which is a bit insane
| to me, especially when sales skyrocketed during COVID, and
| Windows 11 is generally pretty solid at this point.
| faeriechangling wrote:
| What I can't help notice about o365 is that the web
| versions are less buggy and more stable and are catching up
| in feature completeness. Desktop outlook needs to be purged
| with fire. This makes me wonder for how long it will be
| necessary to use Windows to get the full o365 experience.
| blibble wrote:
| how exactly does Azure have no competition?
|
| I have to use Azure at work, and in my experience it's a
| worse version of AWS/GCP: - standard MS
| random indecipherable errors in the GUI (error 0x68482233:
| consult system administrator) - extremely slow UI
| performance in the GUI - extremely slow VM
| performance running their OS (even though it has 4 VCPUs,
| 32gb of RAM and a giant SSD)
|
| it's a standard MS product, one where they (badly) copy the
| features of their competitors, and it only sells because
| they bundle it with their other crappy products which your
| company is already locked into
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| > I am a pretty big Microsoft advocate
|
| That is why they keep doing this. Despite Microsoft's past, it
| seems like you still advocate for them. This would be like
| someone still advocating for Hitler.
| SauciestGNU wrote:
| There's currently a land war in Europe, adjacent to Poland.
| Let's not reductio-ad-hitlerem operating system adverts.
| sydbarrett74 wrote:
| That would be Nadella. He has major Google envy.
| 9erdelta wrote:
| I've spent a lot of time learning how to use the Win32 api and
| overall I like using the Windows OS. But the user hostile design
| decisions of the UI/UX is making it more and more likely that
| I'll move on. I don't want ads, I don't want cloud, I don't want
| a store. I just want to use _my_ computer.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| >I've spent a lot of time learning how to use the Win32 api
|
| Me too but the world has moved on. Even Microsoft don't care
| about that anymore [1][2][3].
|
| [1] https://www.justin-credible.net/2017/05/15/the-visual-
| studio...
|
| [2] https://microsoft.github.io/react-native-
| windows/blog/2022/0...
|
| [3] https://www.electronjs.org/apps/visual-studio-code
| u2077 wrote:
| I've been noticing this for a while, but I no longer "own" _my_
| devices. I'm buying the product and continually paying for it
| with my attention. Everything I have can be taken away.
|
| Empty spaces filled with ads, telemetry with zero opt-out, data
| watched by thousands of eyes, DRM for home appliances.
|
| At what point will people do something about this? I have a
| feeling that even though all of us use technology for hours every
| day, only a few have even a basic understanding of what they are
| doing. Everyone else isn't even aware of what's happening and
| blindly click away their rights.
| matkoniecz wrote:
| > I no longer "own" my devices. (...) At what point will people
| do something about this?
|
| Depends on person, I upgraded from Windows 7 to Lubuntu for
| example because Windows 8 appeared to be unacceptably bad.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| Some sort of combined hardware and software consortium that
| specializes in devices that are repairable, DRM-free, etc. is
| the only solution I can think of, and even then they'd have to
| fend off entryism from established players (like when Microsoft
| subverted standards bodies to get their very proprietary
| document standard declared as open and not proprietary).
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| Don't misinterpret my comment as approving of this behavior.
| But it just occurred to me that this is a societal issue not a
| tech issue. We have billboards on the highway, on buildings,
| before computers we had tv in the home that pushed ads. So
| really this is just tech catching up.
|
| 70% of the population is overweight, if people can't bother to
| care about their body / health then why would they care about
| being spied on by telemetry or denied access to their licensed
| content via DRM?
|
| It feels shitty to think about, but it seems like this is just
| a tech extension to some of the flaws in society, rather than a
| problem that's unique to tech.
| kazinator wrote:
| Microsoft seem desperate to be in the ad business, but don't have
| any sites that anyone visits or any wortwhile search engine that
| effectively controls access to the Internet for the majority of
| the users. The only "Microsoft surface" left where they can stick
| advertising is the pixels they control via the OS.
|
| I may have a good way of capturing this sentiment:
|
| "We are Putin ads in File Explorer!"
| Animats wrote:
| That's just unacceptable. I'm glad I left Microsoft products
| behind at the end of the Windows 7 era. Linux on the desktop for
| years now.
|
| Wine is getting pretty good. If I really have to run a Windows
| executable, I can.
|
| I'm even developing something that has to work cross-platform. I
| compile in Rust with --target x86_64-pc-
| windows-gnu
|
| and test under Wine. Had to get some bugs fixed in a few low
| level crates for that to work, but now I can do Vulkan graphics
| in the Windows executable running under Wine. There's still a
| problem with Tracy profiling with cross-compile, but it's a
| package level build script problem.
| Dzugaru wrote:
| I tried to do that a year ago, but the problem was my PC froze
| (full lock up, even mouse pointer is frozen) regularly. I
| didn't know how to even start troubleshooting a thing like that
| so I left to Win10 again (was Linux Mint btw).
| GeoAtreides wrote:
| > I didn't know how to even start troubleshooting a thing
| like that
|
| Reading the system logs is always a good place to start.
| xoserr wrote:
| Same here. I was done after Windows 7 for linux.
|
| I would say I can't believe they are doing this but I can
| completely believe they are doing this.
|
| I remember how much I liked Windows 2000 and then they had to
| "fix" it.
| rubyist5eva wrote:
| Thankfully I spend >=90% of my time in Linux or Apple based
| operating systems these days. When support for Windows 10 dries
| up, hopefully Proton will be up to snuff or I'll just have to
| kiss some of my steam library goodbye. That's a sacrifice I'm
| willing to make.
|
| Microsoft can shove it.
| phone8675309 wrote:
| If you're not paying for Windows then you're not the customer,
| you're the product.
|
| I can't imagine Enterprise versions of Windows will have this
| enabled.
| JCWasmx86 wrote:
| You pay for Windows, the price is already in the hardware, if
| you purchase a PC with Windows
| 0des wrote:
| Is this like when you pay for Hulu but still see ads? Is
| there a word for this?
| rabuse wrote:
| Cable
| bitwize wrote:
| Two bites at the apple?
| magicalhippo wrote:
| I call it lose-lose.
| clhodapp wrote:
| They might get it later but I'm pretty sure they will get it
| eventually, given that enterprise versions eventually got
| bloatware like candy crush.
|
| I think the classic truism that you are either the customer or
| the product is outmodded. Companies are normalizing double-
| dipping and making you a product even when you are paying them.
| asimops wrote:
| I haven't seen candy crush on any enterprise installation to
| date. Maybe you are mistaken?
| clhodapp wrote:
| I think the partnership that caused them to bundle Candy
| Crush ended a while ago but I belive that it did trickle
| out to Pro and finally Enterprise before it wrapped up.
| It's not the highest quality post but this seems to
| corroborate my belief:
| https://whatsabyte.com/windows/windows-10-enterprise-
| bloatwa...
| asimops wrote:
| The only thing I get actively annoyed about in Windows 10
| Enterprise is the forced installation of that onedrive crap.
| You can remove that by making your own image but that is still
| scummy as hell and not different to bundling Windows media
| player, for which they got fined. Then there is the telemetry
| that cannot be disabled entirely, but that's a different level
| of shit. I mean, they do this with Minecraft too [0]...
|
| [0]: https://bugs.mojang.com/browse/MC-237493
| asimops wrote:
| I lied. While reading the rest of the thread, one more thing
| came to mind: Microsoft grants itself several exceptions in
| the firewall which are restored even if deleted by the user.
| Stuff like allow _inbound_ any to cortana...
| phaistra wrote:
| Windows LTSC does not include the OneDrive garbage. I highly
| recommend checking it out.
| benbristow wrote:
| > I can't imagine Enterprise versions of Windows will have this
| enabled.
|
| Free Windows licences through MSDN (if you work at a
| .NET/Microsoft shop) ftw. Running Enterprise on my personal
| machine.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Isn't it a violation of the license to use it for anything
| other than testing/evaluation?
|
| If I'm going to violate the terms of the license, at least
| I'm going to do so for free.
| benbristow wrote:
| I don't know, and tbh I don't care. Doesn't seem like
| Microsoft care either.
| pdpi wrote:
| Two things standout to me here.
|
| One is, whatever your opinion on ads on file explorer see might
| be, using the triangle/exclamation mark Hazard signage for ads is
| absolutely unacceptable.
|
| The other is, is it just me, or is all the negative press about
| Microsoft these days caused by the Windows division?
| HideousKojima wrote:
| Developer division has caused some issues recently, see the
| dotnet watch issue for an example
| etagate wrote:
| I'm really sad for people who can't run away from Windows because
| of work and/or programs they use or because they can't. Ads seem
| the solution for every failure in making money out of software
| and it's sad.
|
| Some days ago I just randomly downloaded uTorrent and I was
| scared by the amount of ads they embedded. I think it's a taste
| of what Windows will be like if they take this direction.
| zalebz wrote:
| I've been at a Microsoft/.NET shop for over a decade that has a
| 90's MS employee as a key board director. However, MS is making
| such poor decisions with Windows and MSSQL licensing that it's
| become a high priority to migrate off everything they do going
| forward. I think it will take enterprise a few years but MS has
| signed their own death warrant on their old stack - good thing
| they bought GitHub and went all in on WSL.
| moonshinefe wrote:
| uTorrent jumped the shark many many years ago. qBitTorrent is
| what you want probably since it's an open source uTorrent clone
| without the ads (alternatively Transmission if you want
| something really basic that just works).
| beardog wrote:
| I run Windows inside Qubes for work and get by well, but of
| course I took the time to learn how to do that and have a beefy
| workstation. I also don't have any special requirements for GPU
| acceleration or other hardware usage.
|
| Side note, if you're not aware you should use qBittorrent,
| Transmission, BiglyBT or Deluge for torrents.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| utorrent became adware years and years ago... qbittorrent is a
| nice alternative.
| winternett wrote:
| I'm pretty sure there will be a way to hack things... e.g.
| blocking the ad servers in your host file...
|
| Not saying it will be great, but screw the system if it only
| works against us.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| The hosts file is ignored for Microsoft's own domains.
| winternett wrote:
| There is always an answer...
|
| You could even address it at router level if things went
| really sideways.
| WhyNotHugo wrote:
| It's always nice to see Microsoft trying to push more users to
| Linux.
| tabtab wrote:
| Actually I'm okay with the idea, but _only_ under these
| conditions:
|
| * They are "to the side", not pop-ups and not blocking or pushing
| primary content into canned sardines.
|
| * One can close/minimize them to make room when needed.
|
| * They are clearly ads and can't be mistaken for normal content,
| because you know sleazy marketers (ad purchasers) will try to
| trick viewers.
|
| * One can pay more to get an ad-free version, or even tiered so
| one can choose multiple levels between parting with money and
| annoyance level.
|
| * User can change spam level/features down the road without a big
| change-fee.
|
| * Does not mine personal info to target ad content, or at least
| offer a clear and easy way to opt out of targeted ads and related
| personal content mining.
|
| * Doesn't use "dark UI patterns" to trick users out of money,
| into loss of privacy, etc. (Amazon is doing more of that, it's
| friggen annoying.)
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| File Explorer is absolute the worst thing on Windows, kinda
| disgusting engineering time is spent on this and not improving
| performance and search.
|
| Although not sure I'm surprised, even MacOS/iOS are full of ads
| these days.
| dlivingston wrote:
| > even MacOS/iOS are full of ads these days
|
| ...where? Mac and iOS don't have any ads, anywhere, except in a
| couple of apps (Apple News, App Store, and if you want to be
| pedantic, Apple Music).
| jawilson2 wrote:
| In Settings on my iPhone, the top 2 entries are:
|
| Apple TV+ Free for 3 Months
|
| Apple Arcade Free for 3 Months
|
| I have no way to get rid of those, as far as I can tell.
| tssva wrote:
| Which makes the iPhone worse than Windows. Microsoft allows
| you to disable the ads in the start menu and allows you to
| disable the ads mentioned in the article, Microsoft refers
| to them as suggestions, by disabling "Tips and suggestions"
| in the System->Notification settings.
| jiripospisil wrote:
| Interesting, I've just checked and I don't have these
| entries (not any other ads). You can feel special!
| kotaKat wrote:
| IIRC tap on it, there's an option to hide it/cancel it/kill
| it after you tap it once.
| fleddr wrote:
| The article suggests these are ads to push other Microsoft
| products.
|
| That makes its worse than "just" an annoying generic distraction
| to consumers, it's a massive legal liability in it being anti
| competitive behavior.
| mftb wrote:
| Microsoft, if you're listening; Ads in Windows, is what pushed me
| to leave. I have no intention of ever returning. Ads in the tools
| that I use for my work are unacceptable.
| paxys wrote:
| I'm pretty sure Microsoft is operating under the assumption
| that everyone who could quit Windows has done so already. Sadly
| most of the world lacks the technical knowledge (for Linux) or
| money (for Mac) to make a switch, and on the corporate side
| Windows is pretty much a mandate, so what can the end user even
| do?
| mftb wrote:
| Agree, for the average end-user switching is still difficult.
| I do think for some of the more technically oriented ones
| (some gamers, etc...) it may be possible.
| Raidion wrote:
| Gaming on Linux has long been difficult. Not going to get a
| lot of support from gamers there. The "I want to play games
| on my linux box" crowd is a lot bigger than the "I want to
| use linux on my gaming box" crowd.
| immibis wrote:
| Indeed. Why install something that will only cause
| problems?
|
| However, for those who are willing to accept the problems
| to try something different, it's surprisingly un-bad.
| Majority of Steam stuff does work, via their fork of
| Wine; if it's not officially compatible, you can enable
| it anyway.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| I moved my parents from win xp to ubuntu years ago... If I
| told them it was a new windows version, they'd belive me.
| Browser works, mail works, youtube works,... and they don't
| care about the rest.
| wongarsu wrote:
| WSL was a clear push to get developers to use Windows by
| giving them the best of both worlds. Similarly virtual
| desktops and snap layouts supposedly got a whole lot better
| with Windows 11, and those are clearly power user features.
| So some teams at Microsoft clearly care.
|
| As usual Microsoft doesn't show a clear direction, unless
| that direction is infighting.
| k8sToGo wrote:
| There is also powertoys
| whiplash451 wrote:
| I never expected Microsoft to put ads in their products, let
| alone such a productivity-oriented tool.
|
| For me, MSFT was the last standing giant that was not going to
| do it. And yet...
|
| I guess I was too naive :(
| andi999 wrote:
| Yes. It feels unprofessional.
| mftb wrote:
| I pretty much grew up on Windows. I don't hate it or MS, but
| over time it was clear, their interests and mine were
| diverging.
| ultra_nick wrote:
| That and Linux gaming
| mftb wrote:
| Indeed. Now, I'm trying to get the gamers that I know to
| switch.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| Good luck if they happen to use VR at all. Even Valve isn't
| doing a great job there.
| mftb wrote:
| True, it's an uphill battle, particularly with any kind
| of specialized HW, but I'm all in now.
| avereveard wrote:
| > Ads in the tools that I use for my work are unacceptable.
|
| why you working with the home edition then?
| Liru wrote:
| Why are you assuming that they're using the home edition?
| mftb wrote:
| I'm not. I wasn't waiting around to see how far they will
| push it.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| I'll believe it when I see it in my start menu. Till then it's
| speculation.
| johndfsgdgdfg wrote:
| The reality is developing an OS is very expensive. I can totally
| understand why MS is going down that path. It's great that MS is
| asking for feedback from users. Unlike Google, which is keeping
| users hostages for some extra money.
| MisterSandman wrote:
| > The reality is developing an OS is very expensive
|
| Linux?
|
| And ignoring that, Windows is already a paid product, and a
| very expensive one at that ($100+ for a new license).
| k8sToGo wrote:
| Linux is quite expensive in terms of manhours
| pjerem wrote:
| Windows works and is printing money since more than three
| decades. Of course they don't need to add ads.
|
| Since at least Windows 7 they could have done nothing other
| than changing colors and styles and still print money.
|
| I'm not saying that Windows shouldn't evolve. But since Windows
| 7, basically everything is just worse. I can't see a single
| thing that I could qualify as "better". I just lost more and
| more control as the time passes. Heck I can't even resize and
| move the taskbar anymore.
|
| There is a lot of thing I like in my current job but the day
| I'll quit, quitting Windows will be a relief.
|
| And I'm saying that as someone who grew up with Windows,
| learned computing with Windows, played with Windows... Although
| I prefer Linux/macOS, I've never been "anti" anything. But
| Windows 11 is just insulting me on a daily basis, I can't stand
| it anymore.
| HL33tibCe7 wrote:
| We're rapidly approaching https://i.redd.it/67inxepejfqz.png
| wyager wrote:
| I can't believe that anyone pays money for windows. It's the
| worst OS by far of any that I use (macos, freebsd, linux,
| openbsd, etc), it's the only one that costs money, and it's the
| only one which shows me ads.
| jaywalk wrote:
| The fact that MacOS can't be purchased separately doesn't make
| it free.
| wyager wrote:
| They don't charge for upgrades.
| jaywalk wrote:
| Neither does Microsoft with Windows.
| matt321 wrote:
| I expect paid software not to have ads.
| implying wrote:
| You should expect any software to not have ads.
| DemiGuru wrote:
| Let alone your operating system.
| Ajedi32 wrote:
| Kinda ironic how, when it comes to operating systems, it's the
| Free ones that don't have ads.
|
| (Yeah, I know that's not entirely true. Still, I find it kinda
| hilarious that I might have to switch from a paid operating
| system to a free one in order to get away from ads.)
| [deleted]
| humanwhosits wrote:
| I guess they know windows is on-the-way-out if they're trying to
| eek the last bit of cash from it like this
| 51Cards wrote:
| In what way is Windows "on the way out"?
|
| https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide
| tomjen3 wrote:
| Developers are going Mac and Linux, Schools are going
| Chromebooks and many adults are going phones. Companies,
| constantly being behind the curves are still stuck in MS
| land.
|
| You have linked to the desktop market. Yes there rules MS,
| but the desktop market is being destroyed by the phone market
| where MS doesn't even have an offer.
| AStrangeMorrow wrote:
| I wouldn't say really destroyed by the phone market, but
| yes, I feel like the markets are getting more and more
| specialized. From what I've seen Windows machine still have
| two big markets: Companies (for various software
| compatibility / historical reasons) and Gaming. If I look
| at all the persons I know using Windows as their main OS,
| and that's quite a few, reason nb 1 is video games.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| I am not sure main OS even makes sense. My mum is not a
| gamer, 70% of her screen time is on her phone, but she
| does use a Windows PC from time to time. If you only
| looked at her desktop use her main OS would be Windows,
| but really it is Android.
| moonshinefe wrote:
| > reason nb 1 is video games.
|
| I'm hoping this comes to an end soon with Valve backing
| Proton due to the Steam Deck. I don't think I'll be
| upgrading to Windows 11 at any rate, I'll keep Win 10 as
| long as possible then migrate to Linux and live with the
| consequences if a minority of my games won't run on it.
| immibis wrote:
| I run Linux and Steam, but not the latest and greatest
| games. A lot of games run out of the box. A lot of the
| rest run if you tick the box for "yes, run this game
| anyway even though it's not officially compatible with
| Linux." The one major bug I've run into is that if I save
| my password, it doesn't start up - so I have to log into
| Steam every time.
| aembleton wrote:
| A more useful chart, shows how it is doing over time
| https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-
| share#monthly-200901-20...
| faeriechangling wrote:
| In Jan2009 Windows had 95% marketshare across OSes. It's now
| at 31% (accounting for iOS/Android). I would compare Windows
| to all OSes not just desktop OSes as I think mobile OSes do
| directly compete with Windows, I do know people who use iPads
| but not PCs.
|
| I think Windows did well in the last year due to its strength
| in the WFH/education market and the convertible laptop
| market. If we look at stats from the last year we might think
| that traditional desktop PCs have a bright future but this is
| ignoring the broader picture. People are buying Windows PCs
| to do stuff like using desktop office applications that
| Microsoft seems to want to replace with rewritten web
| versions in the long run.
|
| Windows faces a rock and a hard place sort of situation with
| its x86_64 dependence. It's a long term liability but a
| transition to ARM or whatever would remove much of the
| competitive advantage Windows has. It's solution to complete
| with Apple and it's ARM convergence is to emulate ARM +
| Android and offer ARM windows alongside x86 windows which is
| a bit half-assed and disjointed.
|
| Windows is also losing its software moat more and more every
| year regardless of what it does.
|
| I mean, I think you can make a case for the future of
| WindowsNT but moves like the record levels of adware in
| Windows to me project a lack of confidence in the long term
| future of Windows given the indifference to poisoning the
| platform. It doesn't make me go "Wow Microsoft is out to
| prove the haters wrong who underestimate the benefits of
| WinNT!"
| smoldesu wrote:
| I don't think a dependence on x86 is "a rock and a hard
| place". People consciously using Windows machines do it for
| pretty much one reason: they need compatibility with
| everything, no matter the cost. Switching to ARM would
| throw the baby out with the bathwater, and I don't think
| Microsoft is dumb enough to try that.
| faeriechangling wrote:
| Which leaves us in a spot where MacOS seems forward-
| looking, whereas Windows seems to be grasping to what it
| already has. How wise is it for any professional to
| invest their time into Windows if it seems to be headed
| towards inevitable decline?
| detaro wrote:
| There is ARM Windows alongside x86 Windows. Approximately
| nobody wants it, for good reasons.
| WalterGR wrote:
| What's the trajectory of Windows' demise?
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| Not steep enough.
| immibis wrote:
| Be careful what you wish for - it might come true.
|
| What will replace it? Android on PC?
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| Chrome, unfortunately.
| quattrofan wrote:
| skyde wrote:
| is it April yet ?
| imwillofficial wrote:
| ::Emperor Palpatine Voice:: "Do it!!"
| manishsharan wrote:
| This is an awesome news from Microsoft. Kudos to whoever thought
| of this!
|
| I have been waiting for so long for Linux desktop to gain mass
| popularity. This move from Microsoft will finally make my dreams
| come true.
|
| 2022/2023 will be the year of Linux desktop!
| aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
| In late capitalism it's an agreed upon fact of life that poor
| people's minds must be bombarded with ads 24/7. Look at the
| amount of billboards in a poor neighborhood vs a gated community
| for the elites. This is just a natural extension of this
| principle to operating systems. Poor people's operating systems
| (i.e. Android, Windows) _will be_ filled to the brim with scammy
| ads, because they have no power to look elsewhere.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| I'm not sure how copywrited software (a government enforced
| monopoly on intellectual property) is an example of capitalism
| but maybe you'll enlighten me?
| blibble wrote:
| I look forward to the Microsoft brigade telling me again that
| none of the following exists: - ads in file
| explorer - ads on the lockscreen - ads as
| notifications - ads in the start menu - ads in the
| "change file association" dialog - ads in the apps (e.g.
| solitaire) - mandatory updates that cannot be disabled and
| reboot your machine without asking - pc turning itself on
| in the middle of the night OR when in my backpack to install
| updates - un-disableable spyware ("telemetry")
|
| Windows would be classed as malware by the 2002 definition
| lostgame wrote:
| >> Windows would be classed as malware by the 2002 definition
|
| Literally. And adware by the mid-00's definition. Like, I can't
| understand why they'd do this. I really can't. What a joke. Do
| people still work on the Windows project who are proud of what
| they do anymore?
|
| You gotta think, there's an actual team of real, live, people
| at Microsoft who decided that getting paid enough would be
| worth it to put this shit in and degrade millions and millions
| of people's daily experiences using their software.
|
| If I ever become that person, may I rot. I just could never see
| selling out to that level and living with myself.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| Honestly I imagine the people working on Windows have drank
| the Kool-aid. They think this is what people want. The ads
| are "relevant suggestions". Pre installed Candy crush is
| "awesome, everyone wants that!". Telemetry to them is
| "learning about the users needs". And there's a grain of
| truth in all of these.
| [deleted]
| oneepic wrote:
| I guess they do not think of those as "ads" but more like
| suggestions, or tips to the user. (Not defending it, they would
| be clearly doing mental gymnastics if that were the case --
| they absolutely _are_ ads.) If they said the word "ad", they'd
| be referring to content from 3rd parties.
| causi wrote:
| I miss the days when Windows didn't treat me with open contempt.
| bduerst wrote:
| I mean, this is not that much different than Microsoft pushing
| sky drive, cortana, edge, etc. wherever they can in Windows.
|
| It's annoying as hell but feels on par with the course they've
| been going with Windows anyways.
| jmcphers wrote:
| I worked at Microsoft around the time of the Windows Vista
| disaster, and one of the big lessons that came out of that era
| was _solve distractions, not discoverability_. Windows and other
| Microsoft products tried to make features (and products)
| "discoverable" by pushing them on you with alerts and banners,
| but the result, when multiplied by dozens of product teams and
| PMs, was an overall user experience that was noisy and
| unpleasant.
|
| Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is ready
| to learn this lesson the hard way again!
| sha256sum wrote:
| In other words: the last generation did not train the new one,
| and usability is expected to suffer.
|
| Also, there are few to no replacements. Because at some point,
| the last generation decided Windows was the only real OS. Oops!
| bruce511 wrote:
| Well clearly windows is not the only OS, so your thesis seems
| inaccurate. It's not even the only PC OS, arguably there are
| 2 serious Desktop OS's, Windows and MacOS. With Linux desktop
| a very distant 3rd.
|
| On servers there is Linux and Windows Server, with a few
| minor 3rds (BSD maybe?).
|
| On phones there are 2, 3rd place quit.
|
| In the cloud there are 2 providers in AWS and Azure. With
| Google a distant 3rd.
|
| Are you spotting a trend? Seems like each platform will
| support 2 to 3 players, usually with one dominant, one
| subordinate, and possibly one or two also-rans.
|
| When the platform is new there's lots of variety, but as the
| sector matures so the 2 winners emerge.
|
| Turns out that OSs are only as good as their developer
| community, and developers will support 1 or 2 platforms, not
| more. So 3rd place exists on scraps with few users and fewer
| developers.
|
| This has nothing to do with what a generation decides - each
| platform has a winner and a follower, and little else.
|
| To change the OS you have to change the platform, or invent a
| new one. Or maybe 2nd can overtake first (chrome over
| firefox/ie) but examples of that are rare.
|
| So don't be blaming a generation, the players are just the
| players - the game is the game.
| dijit wrote:
| hard not to be flippant, but <10% of the market share going
| to MacOS does not make it a "serious" competitor,
| especially not in business where it's probably closer to
| ~5% if even that.
| wongarsu wrote:
| statcounter.com lists MacOS as 15% of global desktop
| market share [1]. It's a bit more in some markets (25% in
| NA) and a bit less in others (5% in South America), and
| anecdotally dominant in some niches (US Startups, EU
| designers, etc). But I think your point stands that
| Windows is the overwhelming majority of the market, MacOS
| a distant second and everyone else barely notable
| (ChromeOS ranks above Linux).
|
| 1: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-
| share/desktop/worldwide
| HideousKojima wrote:
| And all of that ~5% are going to be graphic designers,
| video editors, etc. With the occasional executive who
| insists on using a mac because it's all they know at
| home.
| samtheDamned wrote:
| it'S serious in terms of usability and support
| atlgator wrote:
| To be fair, the new generation has no respect for the old
| one. Oh, you're a software engineer in your late 30s? Gross.
| [deleted]
| t-writescode wrote:
| I don't think that's really fair. I know enough former
| Microsoft employees and was one long ago enough to know that
| they don't really listen to us unless we're the team that
| designed it.
|
| Removing the start button was a classic example, and there is
| or was plenty of unrest in the walls of Microsoft around all
| the data being collected.
|
| I am more than confident there are 10s of thousands of
| employees that are either resigned in disappointment or
| actively annoyed at what Microsoft has done here with these
| ads, just like the Skydrive ads before them.
|
| Disclosure: worked for Microsoft a long time ago. My views,
| obviously, do not reflect their values.
| chomp wrote:
| > In other words: the last generation did not train the new
| one, and usability is expected to suffer.
|
| Probably is the case, however, a learned lesson sticks better
| than a taught lesson. Or at least that's my hypothesis as to
| why our industry ends up operating in a cycle of relearning
| past lessons.
| kardianos wrote:
| This is tangental to the topic, but we must create a notion of
| Obligation in society to both actively teach and learn from
| those who have gone before us.
| frozenport wrote:
| Your reading of the situation is wrong.
|
| Vista broke 30% market share meaning that MS can push terrible
| UX and get away with it. Further, in the Vista era there was a
| more palpable reduction in performance that doesn't seem to be
| happening.
|
| MS has made their calculation, and it may lead to more revenue.
| winternett wrote:
| I have Windows 10 on my laptop and the other day it forced me
| to decide on if I wanted to update to Windows 11 or not in a
| "Now or Never" kind of way before even startup occurred... Even
| after a reboot, the computer was totally prevented from being
| useable until I answered the question, so I could not even
| search to see if it was an exploit, or even if the upgrade was
| successful for other users with the same model laptop as me.
|
| It's very troubling to me how a device (that I paid a lot of
| money for mind you) would do this without any sort of courtesy,
| and in such a disrespectful manner. This is the issue with
| modern software development, even the things we buy can be
| suddenly changed at the drop of a dime into a subscription
| service cash cow for big industry and we'll have no choice of
| escaping it all. Consumer Protection has failed us totally
| because they too invested deeply into these extortionist big
| corporations. The ads will only get worse year after year
| because it's all shareholder driven, and they will likely lobby
| other software and hardware manufacturers to not support
| alternate options like Linux. Good luck everyone.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| Don't worry if you say `never`, it will still offer it to you
| later....
| qwertox wrote:
| It's funny but we know it's true.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| This is my stance. Luckily my work has moved more and more
| off of microsoft over the years. I'm not buying a $2000
| laptop to watch ads while I'm looking for a file
| throwaways85989 wrote:
| Its le nukes time..windows can exist on, inside the vm-box
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| > they will likely lobby other software and hardware
| manufacturers to not support alternate options like Linux.
|
| This is not necessary, only a very niche like 1% of computer
| users use Linux as their primary OS
| gyulai wrote:
| I feel your pain, and am feeling very disconcerted on my own
| behalf too, having Win 10 and no plans of upgrading until
| network externalities positively force me to stop using it
| (at which point I'll probably give Linux on the Desktop
| another shot instead of upgrading to Win 11).
|
| But I'm finding it hard to believe that there isn't some
| escape hatch there. I absolutely cannot imagine that MSFT's
| corporate customers would play ball with something like that,
| and they still represent a powerful interest group where
| MSFT's decision-making is concerned. So there's got to be
| some escape hatch. Is it a Home vs Pro thing?
| WhyNotHugo wrote:
| Corporate customers don't seem to mind telemetry and alike.
| The "business" version will likely be paid but ad-free.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I would guess that the ads are for home users not
| business/corp users.
| dTal wrote:
| You should definitely switch to Linux. It works very
| nicely, but frankly even if it did not it is less
| infuriating dealing with technical issues that will
| probably be fixed eventually than tolerating daily
| disrespect from some corporate overlord who feels entitled
| to dictate how you use your computer.
|
| It's like quitting social media - mildly inconvenient,
| vastly better for your mental health.
| phatfish wrote:
| You have to use the enterprise "long term service branch"
| (or channel as i think it is now) if you want a sane
| version of Windows 10.
|
| Most of the annoyances are removed from there, and you can
| stick with an older version and not be forced to take the
| "feature" updates, 1809 works well.
|
| The only issue i had is their new Terminal app is not
| supported, i forget why. Last i read they were working on
| support, maybe it works now.
|
| A local KMS activator will license it, then you don't worry
| about adverts in Explorer, for a few years at least...
| hef19898 wrote:
| Privately I have a Windows powered, now hardware wise
| obsolete, desktop and two Lenovo laptops (a main one and an
| old as backup). The main one is running Windows and Ubuntu.
| The only reasons the laptop is still running Windows are a
| handful of, mostly older, Steam games and MS Teams for the
| kids. And I was too lazy to install Linux on the desktop.
|
| If it wasn't for MS Teams, Windows would be gone for a
| while now. No way I "upgrade" to Win11. Luckily, both
| laptops run professional Windows liscences, the backup one
| with only local accounts. So I hope that protects me from
| much of MS pressure to upgrade.
|
| Being used to local software, with local accounts and
| without "telemetry", I see the benefit of tue cloud. Less
| for storage, but Steam is actually a charm for example.
| Overall so, I think software took head dive when it came to
| user experience, privacy and performance. The fact that my
| _OS_ will be serving ads now in the file explorer can only
| be part of one of Dante 's rings of hell...
| avh02 wrote:
| There is ms teams for ubuntu, it's bigger garbage than ms
| teams on other OS's though.
| roeles wrote:
| Ms teams is available for Linux... When I used it for
| work it ran fine on debian 10, but used enormous amounts
| of cpu. Not ideal for a laptop.
|
| Perhaps it's worth trying out?
| bitwize wrote:
| Perhaps try Jitsi Meet?
| aembleton wrote:
| Jitsi Meet doesn't connect to Teams meetings
| dm319 wrote:
| As a long-time linux user, the MS teams linux client is
| woefully poor. It has ruined meetings for me by
| repeatedly losing the microphone. I use Windows more
| often for Teams meeting, and I'm not saying the Windows
| client is perfect in this regard either.
|
| Zoom on linux works well for me however.
| gruez wrote:
| Do you even need the app? The web experience is just
| fine, and I suspect the "app" is just a web wrapper
| anyways.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| What browsers are supported? I tried in both Firefox and
| Safari last time with no success.
| hhh wrote:
| I used Windows 11 Home recently in a VM, and found it
| absolutely atrocious to use. It was genuinely one of the
| most disgusting things I have used on a computer in a
| while. It felt like one of the few times I tried to use an
| Android phone, and everything was filled with bloat
| everywhere you looked.
|
| This was a very stark comparison to my experience on my
| machine that I use Win 11 Pro on, which has none of the
| advertising fluff, TikTok isn't pre-installed and pushed
| onto me when I open the start menu. It just has the things
| I want, that I added, and use frequently in the start menu.
| I didn't use any of those uninstall scripts that tend to
| gouge into the OS, but it was upgraded from Win10, which
| had been installed ~3 months earlier.
| winternett wrote:
| very complaint about it is firewalled behind log-ins and
| many platforms are probably working hard to suppress
| negative words concerning the upgrade now too... I
| appreciate your experience summary. Hopefully I can
| continue running v10 until public sentiment sorts the BS
| out like I did with Win7.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| I have 11 pro and I did the ethernet bypass to avoid
| linking it to a cloud account but it's been making
| threatening gestures recently about "finishing setup." Is
| there a new technique?
| ThatMedicIsASpy wrote:
| If they have not removed it:
|
| 1. Settings (Win+I)
|
| 2. System
|
| 3. Notifications
|
| 4. [ ] Suggest ways I can finish setting up my device
| AyyWS wrote:
| MS's corporate customers using Exchange365 are getting
| Office365 pop-up ads. Office 2019 gets Office365 pop-up
| ads. MS Teams users are getting MS teams upsell pop-up ads.
| When these advertisements get sent to 9k corporate users,
| it causes a bunch of trouble tickets.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| >MS Teams users are getting MS teams upsell pop-up ads
|
| I have no seen this in my enviroment?
| winternett wrote:
| I dunno if it's a Home or Pro issue, but if things get
| really bad, people will just begin to venture back to
| computer stores (Off Torrent Street) in the urban part of
| town and get a bootleg copy of winblows 2024 as they did in
| the past, then company sales will drop and they'll need to
| re-evaluate everything all over again.
|
| It's a vicious cycle.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| That is certainly going to be how Russians will be
| purchasing Windows in the near future.
|
| Please don't bootleg Windows. Even a pirate install
| counts as an install. Linux is so much better.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| If Linux were so much better, more of us would have
| switched already. The fact that reasonable people
| continue to use Windows despite bullshit like this is
| evidence that Linux really isn't so much better[0]. I
| can't help but think that some vocal portion of the
| community continually insisting that it is better and
| blaming its lack of adoption on laziness, or lack of
| technical understanding, is a significant factor in
| keeping it from being better than it is.
|
| That said, yeah, at this point Windows is becoming so bad
| that even I, a vocal Linux Desktop critic, must admit
| that soon Linux will at least be the less shitty of the
| two.
|
| [0] at least not for the people who are still using
| Windows. Obviously some amount of this comes down to how
| and why any given person uses a desktop computer at all.
| analog31 wrote:
| I agree with this. I've stuck with Windows so far, just
| because of battery life and touch screen support, and a
| single Visual Basic macro that I'd have to write a
| replacement for. But I have to admit, those are some
| pretty slim threads tying me down to Windows. Some
| computers in my household are already on Linux.
|
| Teams for Ubuntu works well enough.
|
| Most people would still have a hard time switching to
| Ubuntu, but then again most people (outside of HN
| audience) have no use for the file manager, or are using
| work computers that somebody else is maintaining. The
| people who a) need Windows, and b) need to use something
| other than the browser, are a tiny minority who are also
| tech savvy enough to figure out some way to deal with
| this.
|
| Where I see it as a dark pattern is, someone is trying to
| figure out how to do something on their Windows computer,
| and the first thing they see is an ad that looks like a
| help message, inviting them to install something that
| they have to pay for and exposes them to even more ads.
| It's like Clippy but takes your money.
| viraptor wrote:
| > The fact that reasonable people continue to use Windows
| despite bullshit like this is evidence that Linux really
| isn't so much better
|
| If you want actual evidence, you'd need to control for
| some variables like windows being preinstalled and about
| the only ads it got was Microsoft advertising "why not
| Linux" in the past. Right now you need to spend some
| effort to even give it a go.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Linux is not "better" per-se, it's simply a different set
| of trade-offs.
|
| For us techies, having to occasionally fall back to the
| terminal to fix a hiccup is worthwhile not having to deal
| with Microsoft's recent BS.
|
| For a non-technical user however, Microsoft's BS means
| they can still accomplish their task, albeit slowly and
| without privacy, while Linux will leave them completely
| stranded if something breaks because they have no clue
| how to fix it.
|
| It doesn't help that the Linux world spreads itself thin
| on reinventing the same square wheel 10 times (and
| arguing/fighting about which wheel is best - think
| systemd vs other inits, desktop environments, etc)
| completely ignoring (or denying) the fact that the wheel
| is _square_.
| xoserr wrote:
| KDE Neon with KDE Plasma is way better than Windows.
|
| I don't know what else to tell you. I am a moron, lazy
| and get easily frustrated.
|
| I don't work in IT.
|
| Installation is 15 minutes and everything just works
| perfect. There is no way people can have all these
| problems with Linux here if I can figure this out. If it
| was any type of frustration I would just stick with
| Windows.
|
| I think many people here must just make things up about
| all these linux problems because it makes no sense to me
| at all.
|
| I don't even know what a single directory outside of my
| /home directory is for.
| mkr-hn wrote:
| I always feel bad for the developers of the better GUI
| Linux tools. It's not fair for people to compare solid
| efforts to commercial software with solid funding and
| huge userbases for feedback. Some of them are their own
| worst enemy, but most really do seem to try.
|
| No, [Ardour, LMMS, Darktable, ...] _aren 't_ going to do
| as replacements (for the nth time), but it's not at all
| their fault. I also don't fault them or Linux as a whole
| for the people who badger about it while ignoring the
| needs of the person they're pestering, but not everyone
| is able to make that distinction, and it comes to reflect
| poorly on the software.
|
| As for ports of the stuff I _do_ use, it seems the fault
| is in the lack of cohesion. It 's not free to assign
| developers to port to even a reasonably narrow subset of
| toolkits and libraries to target the most users, and
| having a lawyer go over the licenses to see about packing
| it in costs money. And they're not likely to ever recover
| that cost in sales: the people who want it are already
| using the Windows or Mac version, and the people they
| might sell to are already productive and skilled with
| Linux options.
| dTal wrote:
| >The fact that reasonable people continue to use Windows
| despite bullshit like this is evidence that Linux really
| isn't so much better.
|
| The same line of reasoning concludes that McDonalds is
| better than home cooking.
|
| (People are lazy and easily swayed by cheap psychological
| tricks)
| immibis wrote:
| Linux is a lot better _for developers_ , mostly because
| lots of developers use it, in a feedback cycle, but the
| fact that most of the system is open-source also helps.
|
| It's also good if you just need to do one or two things
| and they happen to work on Linux. Some people install it
| on their grandma's internet PC.
|
| Even a majority of Steam games seem to work on Linux now,
| via Valve's fork of Wine.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| > Linux is a lot better for developers
|
| Depends on he kind of developer. Web developer? Probably.
| Game developer? It's a joke.
|
| > Even a majority of Steam games seem to work on Linux
| now, via Valve's fork of Wine.
|
| That at least is true, it's getting a lot better.
| However, VR is still a hell of a lot more problematic on
| Linux even if you're using Valve's hardware.
|
| Like I said, a lot of it comes down to how and why you
| use a desktop computer in the first place.
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| Yep.
|
| I think it's better _at technical things_ for any kind of
| developer or technical person, generally. (Even at non-
| technical things in some cases: KDE, as a desktop
| environment, wipes the floor with Windows 's desktop
| environment, from the taskbar to the file manager.)
|
| But if one developer's "better" includes "playing <AAA
| game with anticheat>" or "using Photoshop" or "using VR",
| the betterness is sharply decreased.
|
| I count myself extremely lucky my need/want matrix has
| happened to align such that I'm much more comfortable on
| Linux than on Windows, but that alignment is sadly RNG.
| :p
| InCityDreams wrote:
| >Please don't bootleg Windows. Even a pirate install
| counts as an install. Linux is so much better.
|
| Sorry, not for my needs, it's not. My powershell-gutted
| w10 pro runs the software i need with remarkably little
| fuss. I keep trying Linux every few years, but nope, not
| yet. So, dis-connected from the netm and piracy it will
| be.
| majkinetor wrote:
| Linux is not "so much better" as you can more or less do
| ANY thing on both without a problem. I use only cross-
| platform apps, so the OS choice is not a problem to me:
| firefox, thunderbird, powershell, vscode, copyq, dbeaver,
| audacity, pircard, doublecmd, less etc. all work the same
| everywhere.
|
| After using all OSes, Linux is still lacking vendor
| support that Windows has, so one needs les time and lower
| level knowledge then on Linux to setup some things.
|
| What we need is bloat free Windows, only kernel and
| package manager like Chocolatey/scoop/winget.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Mine just updated overnight without asking, after I rejected
| the update as much as i could. I was perplexed, wondering if
| the upgrade is being forced in more lenient countries.
| majkinetor wrote:
| Try https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
| qwertox wrote:
| You just made me boot into Windows and this is what I saw:
|
| --
|
| "Microsoft recommentds Windows 11 for your device"
|
| "blablabla it's the best"
|
| "Learn more -- Decline upgrade -- Get it"
|
| --
|
| Pressing "Decline upgrade" yields a new screen:
|
| --
|
| "Not sure about Windows 11?"
|
| "blablabla it's the best"
|
| "Skip for now -- Get Windows 11"
|
| --
|
| And "Skip for now" brings me to my desktop.
|
| I wonder if disabling TPM could be a solution.
| eggman314 wrote:
| Disabling TPM has worked for me
| jjoonathan wrote:
| Nah, this is Windows we're talking about. Pushing the user
| into doing a big install only to tell them it failed at the
| very end, after it has made a mess of the hard drive, is
| standard procedure.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| TBH I'm in the same position right now with a Chromebook.
| I keep getting prompted for an upgrade, which I accept,
| it spins for a while, then fails, then spins for another
| while rolling everything back. At least it does that,
| rather than leaving me with partly-updated, likely
| unusable device.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| In the Vista days they at least _tried_ to do the right thing;
| it was still an era where computers were _tools_ to serve the
| user, not to exploit /abuse them, most business models were
| still "sell a thing people need/want at a profit", and the
| current state of telemetry & ad-related tracking would've still
| been considered "spyware" and would've led to massive outrage
| and maybe even legal consequences.
|
| Nowadays, they don't even try to do "the right thing", or at
| the very least, the meaning of "the right thing" has been
| corrupted in many parts of the tech industry. "Growth and
| engagement" is seen as a completely normal and valid business
| model and pervasive stalking (that would make spyware from a
| decade ago super jealous) became socially-accepted.
| qwertox wrote:
| It used to be a tool which they gave you in exchange for
| money, now it's a platform which both of you share, and where
| they start messing around with your stuff whichever way they
| see fit.
|
| You used to buy a desktop which you would take home and sit
| in front and do your work.
|
| Now you buy a desktop which you take home and you get the
| seller sit on the other side of it, looking at your work,
| asking your questions, taking your papers, rearranging
| everything according to their newest ideas.
|
| It's absolutely horrible.
| fatih-erikli wrote:
| I don't know why the people hate Vista, but it was my favorite
| Windows version ever. I like the glowing transparent bars so
| much in it. It was first, as far as remember. Some KDE window
| managers also had it but windows's was so much better. I think
| it is also important, I find it very attractive when the title
| bars are glowing and transparent.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| I love Windows Aero. The "flat" bullshit that came after it
| is complete garbage.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| UAC prompts, driver compatibility issues, and "Windows Vista
| Capable" branding on a bunch of computers that couldn't
| actually run Vista properly
|
| https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2008/03/the-vista-capable-
| de...
| fatih-erikli wrote:
| Yes I remember driver compatibility issues, especially for
| graphics drivers. It was running it with some sort of
| undergraded flag and disabling enhanced visual mode, and
| actually with that flag, the windows vista looked and
| worked like Windows XP. I think Windows is the best when it
| comes to backward compatibility in comparison with others.
| Correct me if I'm wrong.
| amelius wrote:
| > Looks like a new generation of engineers and designers is
| ready to learn this lesson the hard way again!
|
| Nah, it's just some manager who needs a pay raise.
| xenadu02 wrote:
| Why do you think they don't know this will be annoying but
| intend to do it anyway to shift revenue sources?
|
| My personal opinion is:
|
| Microsoft told us they see Windows 11 as the "last" version.
| From now on Windows is a service that pushes continuous
| updates. The OEM deals are still generating revenue but the
| strategy shift means no more selling retail upgrades.
|
| It makes total sense that Microsoft would now prioritize adding
| new revenue sources. I would expect more "parterships", ads,
| telemetry/tracking, and so forth. The money is just too juicy
| and Windows is slowly transitioning to be a cost center instead
| of revenue center which makes the pressure to find revenue even
| higher. Plus with PC upgrade cycles getting longer and the
| overall PC market somewhat leveling off (days of 50% yoy growth
| are long gone) revenue was going to stagnate no matter what.
|
| Microsoft employs a lot of smart people. They know users don't
| want any of this. The desire to find new revenue is a higher
| priority. Anyone not on-board with the "Windows client versions
| are now a 'marketing channel' and 'partnership opportunity'"
| will leave or find themselves reorg'd to "align business
| priorities".
|
| Is writing some new feature going to move the needle after the
| OEMs fill the system up with spyware/adware? It isn't going to
| increase PC sales by 20% this year so it isn't going to
| generate more OEM license sales and _zzzzzzz_ (look the VPs
| already fell asleep during your presentation).
|
| Is fixing bugs going to get kudos, or just create more support
| tickets as your bug fix accidentally breaks some old garbage
| "business critical" software relying on the broken behavior? It
| sure isn't going to sell more copies of Windows since that
| isn't something MS does anymore.
|
| But putting ads in Explorer and generating $50m in new revenue?
| Now that will get you a promotion and bonus!
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Microsoft told us they see Windows 11 as the "last"
| version.
|
| Really? It's hard to see how they could say that without
| getting laughed out of the room, considering they said the
| same thing about Windows 10.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| Didn't they say 10 was the last version, too?
| andi999 wrote:
| They did.
| conradfr wrote:
| They also always say this is the Windows where upgrades
| won't require a reboot (since maybe XP?).
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Until Apple moved on, then obviously they had to respond,
| because waging a version number war is better than
| actually making a decent, usable OS.
|
| Hint: people don't buy Macs because they're at version 11
| (or 12 now), they buy it because the experience is much
| more polished than whatever Microsoft has been puking out
| in the last decade.
| gruez wrote:
| AFAIK it was a random windows dev that said that, not
| some official company communication/promise.
| t-writescode wrote:
| https://www.pcmag.com/news/windows-10-the-last-version-
| of-wi...
|
| > Microsoft's developer evangelist Jerry Nixon made the
| announcement at the company's Ignite conference in
| Chicago last week.
|
| That's a bit more than "a random dev".
| gruez wrote:
| I'm not sure about you, but "developer evangelist" sounds
| pretty rank and file to me. Searching his name he's
| apparently now a "Senior Software Engineer" on linkedin
| (can't click in, getting a login wall), which supports
| this.
| t-writescode wrote:
| This person, as an evangelist, spoke at an official event
| run by the company. That's why I think they're special.
| gruez wrote:
| You'd think that something as important as "we won't ever
| launch more editions of our most popular piece of
| software ever" would be disseminated more widely and
| across more channels than one "developer evangelist"
| interview in a conference? If that's real (ie. some sort
| of position that senior management actually approved),
| that is.
|
| I don't doubt he thought he was telling the truth, or
| that there was a general sense within the organization
| that windows 10 was going to get continually updated
| rather than having new editions every 3 years. Windows 10
| did adopt this model for 6 years. But painting it as some
| sort of official promise from the organization seems
| tenuous.
| t-writescode wrote:
| I think we're agreeing, but yelling past each other
| gruez wrote:
| Right, I concede that "developer evangelist [...] at the
| company's Ignite conference" is slightly more reputable
| than just "random dev". That said I don't believe it
| materially changes the argument.
| happytoexplain wrote:
| This is maybe _the_ dominant pattern of bad software design:
| Writeups describe a good idea, umbrella terms emerge to refer
| back to it ( "discoverability"), and inexperienced
| designers/engineers try to implement the idea based only on the
| one-word description and the common knowledge surrounding it,
| rather than actually learning about the topic it describes.
| (Maybe they took a corporate learning course on the topic,
| created by people with similarly inadequate competence on the
| topic). It's like a game of telephone taken to the logical
| extreme. They are attempting to use lessons from others'
| successes, but the end result is even worse than if the
| designers/engineers used nothing but their own common sense to
| architect in an information vacuum.
|
| This particular cause of abysmal, insulting UX is common in new
| teams with no experience among the staff, but there's just no
| word for how embarrassing it is that Microsoft suffers from it
| so often too.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| It's very charitable to assume that they just don't understand.
| Personally I think they understand perfectly well that ads
| reduce the value of their offering but don't care because
| money.
| Havoc wrote:
| And before that there was clippy...
| Vox_Leone wrote:
| I regret that the computing experience in 2022 has to be so
| atrocious. But it is necessary to understand that general
| computing has its limit when the user does not want to make the
| effort to have independence [to educate themselves on the
| operation of a von Neumann machine].
|
| There is a whole GNU/Linux ecosystem [as well as a few others],
| mature and reliable. I even feel sorry for the user who, for
| one reason or another, prefers to be spoon fed by the Windows
| system. As you can see, there is a price to pay for the
| convenience of ignorance [hey, everybody uses Windows!].
|
| Or it may be that general computing, the noble goal of bringing
| computing for the masses, is just an illusion, and cannot be
| done without gatekeepers like MS.
| zeruch wrote:
| "I regret that the computing experience in 2022 has to be so
| atrocious."
|
| The industry builds what the industry wants.
| t-writescode wrote:
| The populous tolerates what the (edit: duopolies) force-
| feed them.
| jawilson2 wrote:
| So, I'm building a gaming PC for my kids. One of them started
| playing fortnite with his friends during covid, to keep in
| touch. He would like it on the gaming PC. Fortnite does not
| run on Linux. What do you suggest? If it helps, I have been
| personally running linux since 2002 or so, starting with
| Slackware, then Gentoo, then back and forth from Arch to
| Ubuntu. I am a developer and use linux daily. I would love to
| hear what I should use instead of windows.
| immibis wrote:
| I had a laptop that came with Windows Vista and I don't
| remember it being full of distractions. Granted, perhaps the
| OEM turned them all off.
| qwertox wrote:
| Neither Vista nor 7 had any distractions. Except for the
| games like Minesweeper.
| avereveard wrote:
| today a new stupid applet appeared on the taskbar, and it
| defaulted to italian, picking up language from the location
| (without even asking permission to geolocate me first!) instead
| of my os language.
|
| it's not just the nagware, the whole system experience is shit
| because it's so inconsistent.
|
| I run a english language / italian keyboard, and every update
| it decides to reset my keyboard to english layout.
|
| search results are still this bad, with unrelated results
| shadowing good matches: https://i.imgur.com/uJY7uCJ.png
|
| windows security often gives me a notification. the
| notification say: "no action needed"
|
| it's like they just put interns in cages and set them to
| program away, building stuff for the sake of accounting new
| lines of codes.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| I wished a lot more companies would learn that lesson. It is
| such a pain when you have to use some software and then you get
| the popups about new features. The features may be brilliant,
| but right now I don't care. I am doing something.
|
| Yet somehow PMs never realize that if they let the features be
| visible in the corner, I would click on them in 10 seconds when
| I am done with what I am doing and would actually want to read
| them.
| matkoniecz wrote:
| Problem here is that purpose of Google Maps is completely
| divergent between users and Google.
|
| For example Food/Hotels/Groceries is an ideal place to show
| ads - which is the primary actual purpose of Google Maps as
| far as Google is concerned.
| antisthenes wrote:
| Looking at you, Google Maps.
|
| No, I don't need an "easier way to do X, Y" or whatever else
| your obtuse program manager decided would get them a
| promotion.
|
| I'm operating a 2-ton vehicle in traffic, so THE EASIER WAY
| would be to not obscure 50% of my phone screen, making me
| take eyes away from the road for an extra 2-3 seconds.
|
| Hint for anyone reading this at google - it's in the name.
| Maps. That's all I want from your app, UNLESS I am
| specifically searching for Food/Hotels/Groceries. Also,
| please stop doing a UI redesign every year.
|
| No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me around an
| accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if it's not -
| don't.
| bitcharmer wrote:
| It's amazing how Google employs all these super smart
| people and they end up doing stupid shit like that.
| InCityDreams wrote:
| Not so super smart, then, are they?
|
| Throughout all these comments i just hear George
| Carlin....'people that should be.....'
| warning26 wrote:
| As much as I prefer Google Maps's routing functionality,
| this is one thing that admittedly Apple Maps gets right in
| its UI; when you open it, there's a map, a search box, and
| my search history.
|
| Google Maps used to be that, until PMs took over pushing
| random new features. No, Google, I did not open your maps
| app so I could see "what's new", and have no desire to do
| that. Even the search history is broken -- it now uses some
| inscrutable logic to decide whether or not a previous
| search is _worthy of inclusion_ into the past searches
| list.
| wolpoli wrote:
| Yes, I check traffic much often than looking for
| Food/Hotels/Groceries, but somehow the toggle for traffic
| is hidden behind a small layer icon, while
| Food/Hotels/Groceries occupy the top of the screen.
| matkoniecz wrote:
| Well, Food/Hotels/Groceries is an ideal place to show ads
| - which is the primary actual purpose of Google Maps as
| far as Google is concerned.
| Fogest wrote:
| I like all the things in Google Maps that you disagree
| with. Maybe you're just not the target audience and should
| switch to an app that works better for your needs? Google
| Maps does automatically choose the better route if it finds
| one, but it gives you time to cancel that action if you'd
| like before it switches.
| kroltan wrote:
| Settings are supposed to exist, despite what corner-
| cutting suits would like to believe.
|
| Different people do have different needs, and it's clear
| that Google Maps attempts to reach a wide audience since
| it's both a map, business directory, and navigation
| service.
|
| If it must ask, offer "always pick faster route" and
| "always follow planned route" buttons on first use and in
| a menu somewhere.
| gralx wrote:
| As a fellow user of Google Maps, I'd gladly give up those
| features to make the roads a little safer. You have
| different priorities.
| Fogest wrote:
| Yes but what I mentioned does not require any
| interaction, it still does change the route to a faster
| one without having to do anything. I don't see how that
| makes a difference in safety?
|
| I am not worried about people using a GPS on the road, I
| am worried about the people I've seen who are scrolling
| through their social media feeds and watching videos that
| play in the feeds and everything. Or the people sending
| big text messages, the people who are having
| conversations with passengers and for some reason always
| have to look at the person to speak rather than keeping
| their eyes on the road, etc....
| JohnFen wrote:
| > Yes but what I mentioned does not require any
| interaction, it still does change the route to a faster
| one without having to do anything. I don't see how that
| makes a difference in safety?
|
| It makes a difference for people (like myself) who very
| much don't want the route to change automatically. It
| means that some attention has to be paid to the app so
| you can tap the screen in time to make it stop, and it
| means that you have a time-limited action that you must
| perform. Two things that add to the cognitive load and
| distraction.
| Fogest wrote:
| Yes, but the OP of this comment thread you tagged along
| on said they preferred it the other way:
|
| > No, I don't need a pop-up if you want to reroute me
| around an accident. If it's faster - just reroute me, if
| it's not - don't.
|
| That is what I am addressing. That it already does
| automatic rerouting without user interaction being
| required.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| The main problem is that if the company's model is "growth
| and engagement", the objective of the company is for you to
| "engage" with them (and look at the ads or whatever dark
| pattern they're pushing). It is _not_ to help you accomplish
| whatever task you were trying to do with their product. The
| "product", if it's there, is merely a necessary evil to
| convince the users to "engage" with it.
|
| The PM couldn't care less about whether it interrupts your
| flow - he just knows that interrupting the flow of millions
| of people will net them that next promotion and a nice
| "increased engagement by double-digit percentages" bullet
| point on the resume. The company executives don't care
| either, because they know that boasting about the increased
| engagement figures will make their stock price go up.
|
| By the time the degraded experience causes actual
| repercussions for the company (if it ever does - it won't if
| they've got a monopoly), both the aforementioned PM and
| executives will be long gone and will already have cashed
| out.
| pmarreck wrote:
| this pretty much describes why I couldn't stand that Windows
| era and strongly preferred my Mac instead. It was like it was
| designed to be anti-focus
| 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
| Sounds like Windows users are unpaid beta testers.
| dm319 wrote:
| Have a look at the adobe acrobat interface, I can't believe how
| complicated it is, and often comes up with prompts, side menus,
| adverts for other versions, and a tiny space to actually view
| your file.
| politelemon wrote:
| MS with the file explorer ads, Apple with settings ads, Samsung
| with its TV ads. They've normalised ads in paid software.
| agumonkey wrote:
| !!! Street signs, right into your bedroom !!!
|
| I can't help but see the end of a cycle here.
| melvinram wrote:
| > Apple with settings ads
|
| Say more?
| bertman wrote:
| https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/apple-is-
| put...
| jen729w wrote:
| I believe they are referring to Apple's encouragement to sign
| up to/in to iCloud within the Settings app on iOS, suggesting
| that this is an 'ad' on a par with the Microsoft ad shown in
| the OP.
| oneplane wrote:
| Not even close. If you go to iCloud (a tiered service with
| one free offering and only paid options beyond that), you
| get product messaging about iCloud. Not "how to write
| confidently in this other unrelated product that you don't
| have but you can buy from us".
| everdrive wrote:
| It's not in the same ballpark, and shouldn't be compared.
| It is pretty annoying on its own, though.
| busymom0 wrote:
| The iOS settings app shows a "Apple Arcade for free for 3
| months" ad at the very top of the home page. That's
| definitely an ad.
|
| EDIT: screenshot:
|
| https://i.imgur.com/64sP9yh.jpg
| everdrive wrote:
| I haven't seen that ad, but I'm also using a Pihole, so
| maybe it has just been blocked. Agreed, though,
| advertising is unwelcome.
| busymom0 wrote:
| I don't think PiHole will block this ad. I think it may
| only show for new phones or something:
|
| https://i.imgur.com/64sP9yh.jpg
| oneplane wrote:
| After combining that with your other post, perhaps the
| formula they are using is iCloud account on a
| 'difference' device where it calculates if the new device
| is 'better' than the old one, thus was a device upgrade
| and therefore you may want to try the arcade. Personally
| I don't care for the arcade, but it does seem to be some
| sort of one-off notification when something in your
| device/account mix changes.
|
| Reminds me of the Office365 trial tile in Windows that
| doesn't actually do anything but when you open the start
| menu it is always there in accounts that are newly signed
| in to a computer. It's not really in the way, but it is
| always in your face until you remove it (but then it does
| stay away).
| oneplane wrote:
| Not showing up for me at any time, perhaps this is that
| complementary thing you get for new iCloud accounts and
| new Apple devices? (Or was that the one free year thing?)
|
| While it is probably advertising for a service, it's not
| a generic place for arbitrary advertisements. I believe
| the difference between "there will be random ads here"
| and "you bought a thing, this is what you get with it for
| free if you want it, or you can remove it and never see
| it again as a normal option" is pretty big.
| busymom0 wrote:
| I updated my comment with a screenshot:
|
| https://i.imgur.com/64sP9yh.jpg
|
| My iCloud account isn't new. It's many years old. The
| device I have is old but only 3 months old. I bought it
| from someone else and it's still under warranty so maybe
| that's why.
|
| > I believe the difference between "there will be random
| ads here" and "you bought a thing, this is what you get
| with it for free if you want it, or you can remove it and
| never see it again as a normal option" is pretty big.
|
| That's a fair point. I do notice Apple going in the wrong
| direction though. Even the "search" tab in the App Store
| now shows ads for random apps (before doing a search).
| That's fairly odd.
| oneplane wrote:
| For the store I sort-of understand it, it's a store after
| all, the only purpose is to extract money from customers
| (in exchange for services/goods), and with a non-physical
| store the only real distinction you can make is how high
| at the top of a list your product sits. That said, I
| don't really use it that often anymore as I already have
| all the apps I want or need. Perhaps also why I tried the
| arcade a while back but didn't really end up using much
| of it for long.
| oneplane wrote:
| It's definitely annoying indeed. I do wonder how this
| could be done better because after asking around for a
| bit there do seem to be a lot of people that aren't aware
| of any free trials yet are definitely interested in
| trying it out.
| yurishimo wrote:
| I think they're referring to the upsell of iCloud. If you're
| not subscribed to even the $1 tier or wherever, there is a
| line under the iCloud menu item to upgrade. I don't think
| it's especially egregious but some might have a different
| opinion.
| busymom0 wrote:
| It's worse:
|
| https://i.imgur.com/64sP9yh.jpg
| 2fast4you wrote:
| They're probably talking about notifications probing you to
| add your card to Apple Wallet.
|
| I'm not sure if you get them if you never touch Apple Wallet,
| I always get them when I transfer to a new phone or reset my
| current phone and need to setup my cards again before they
| can fully transfer.
|
| It's annoying, but never felt it was comparable to Microsoft.
| LorenPechtel wrote:
| Finish setting up your i<device>. It doesn't go away.
|
| Nowhere near as evil as what the other guys are doing,
| though.
| howinteresting wrote:
| There are no ads in GNU/Linux distributions.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Did Ubuntu stop running them?
| howinteresting wrote:
| Yes.
| ezfe wrote:
| You get them if you don't, but if you dismiss it it goes
| away forever.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I got near-daily ads for Safari on Mojave. Pretty good OS,
| but that just drove me straight up the wall...
| tacotacotaco wrote:
| I might guess they are referring to the Apple Pay signup, the
| Apple TV and Apple Arcade promotions which show up as
| settings notifications.
| oneplane wrote:
| They probably think that the section in the iCloud
| subscription settings about what the product costs and what
| it provides is "settings ads".
| busymom0 wrote:
| The iPhone shows "Apple arcade for free for 3 months" ad at
| the very top of the settings home page. Not iCloud.
|
| Here's how it looks:
|
| https://i.imgur.com/64sP9yh.jpg
| rekoil wrote:
| It's a very Apples to Oranges comparison to be honest.
| Settings is an app that you don't really need to open
| that much to begin with, and the "ads" they show are more
| like promotions that you can use only once on your
| account. It's a bait for sure, but it's at least a bit
| beneficial to users if they are ever interested in trying
| that service.
|
| Explorer is something Windows users interact with
| _constantly_ , putting ads right next to the actual
| content view is SO different to ads in settings, at least
| to me.
|
| As others have mentioned this isn't the only ad Apple has
| tinkered with recently, I don't think they should be off
| the hook by any means, I just think Microsoft have been
| way more dubious recently.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Why can't the OS just be an OS though without ads
| anywhere? Clearly if you install firefox you want to use
| firefox, otherwise you'd switch back to safari.
| oneplane wrote:
| Because ads is the only way to make constant money from
| consumers if you don't sell hardware with the OS. That
| said, not all notifications are ads. Sometimes, a
| notification is just a well-intentioned notification that
| only a small portion of users take offence to. I bet that
| if they made a "Safari Rewards Points" program that would
| annoy the hell out of everyone.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| If you dismiss that it'll never come back again. This
| goes for all their music, tv, etc. services. And this
| also goes for features like Siri and Apple Pay, if you
| opt out there'll be a reminder in settings and if you
| decline it'll never come back.
| oneplane wrote:
| Never had that one, but from the docs you apparently can
| select it, say you do not want the free thing and it will
| never come back and also not be replaced with an ad for
| unrelated products. Edit: until you apparently log in on
| a new device and if it is new enough you get the same
| offer.
| rekoil wrote:
| > if it is new enough you get the same offer
|
| Still only once per account though. If you have a family
| setup it's actually only once per family even, I'd
| imagine it reverts back to once per account if you leave
| the family.
|
| So basically, if you don't like seeing it, activate it
| and then immediately cancel it, and it should never come
| back.
| oneplane wrote:
| Interesting, I haven't checked with the rest of the
| family, but would that also mean that the trial is
| family-scoped so that you can't all trial it
| individually?
| karaterobot wrote:
| MacOS shows me a notification when I'm running Firefox
| which says Try the new Safari
| Fast, energy-efficient, and with a beautiful new design
|
| That's an advertisement, right?
| oneplane wrote:
| Is it? It's a nudge at best, which you can probably
| taxonomize as "advertising" but its for a thing you
| already have and users genuinely might not have noticed.
|
| Now, they had a different notification in the past for
| MobileMe that was truly an ad because you didn't have to
| be an existing customer for an upsell nor did it come
| with the OS by default (this was after iTools got
| rebranded by Apple), and it just wanted you to go to
| their website to look at the product and maybe buy it,
| download it and install it. (this was mostly the pre-
| iCloud-Drive backup solution that was itself a holdover
| from iTools)
|
| I think technically anything that points you to a place
| where money could be made is an advertisement, and even
| advertising mDNS devices on a local network is doing the
| "hey you, there is a thing over here"-thing. But there is
| a big difference between creating a universal spot in
| software to load arbitrary advertisements for new
| products vs. in-product purchase options (which obviously
| tend to lean more into the upsell category of ads than
| the nudge for mindshare category of ads).
|
| The whole 'try safari' thing is one I do actually see on
| new accounts, and sometimes on first startup with
| browsers, but IIRC once dismissed they don't come back
| again. Heck, it even is less persistent than the post-
| install highlights notification you got from major OS
| upgrades.
|
| Perhaps the Browser-notification is best compared with
| Microsoft's OneDrive notification in the Security
| settings where they suggest that using a free OneDrive
| account is the "One True Way" to stop ransomware.
| karaterobot wrote:
| I think the fact that you already have the app installed
| is not a mitigating factor, it actually makes it worse: I
| can't uninstall Safari. They put it on my computer, I
| chose not to use it, and now they're specifically
| targeting other applications they want me to switch away
| from.
|
| It's not only a new installation issue either; I've had
| this laptop for 7-8 months. It's only happened 4-5 times,
| and I assumed (without verifying) that I get it whenever
| Safari has updated. For what it's worth, I have turned
| off notifications from Safari; this is the OS itself
| saying "I see you're using another browser; have you
| thought about using ours instead?"
| oneplane wrote:
| I guess it's perspective-dependant. Computers are really
| more sold like appliances the last decade or so, and as
| such the specs they are sold on depend on the combination
| of hardware and software. For the general consumer, any
| deviation from the expected and advertised performance
| would be A Bad Thing(tm), and modifying the base
| facilities would count as such.
|
| Now, for me (and perhaps you too) I see it much more as a
| collection of interconnected hardware devices, with
| various firmwares in ROMS and Flash EEPROMs, boot loaders
| and operating systems on mass storage devices, and a few
| ISAs, ABIs and APIs to make sure it all works to a
| certain standard. In practical terms, that doesn't really
| matter to anyone else, not to Apple, but also not to
| Microsoft, HP, Dell etc. So we're back at "the thing is a
| black box appliance" and as such, the base advertised
| features should be properties of the appliance as bought
| by the customer. This also means that any deviation from
| that will either mean someone has to spend (or waste)
| time and energy on telling an angry customer that their
| BitCoinBrowserXXL is the reason the battery is empty
| after an hour, and that it is their own fault, or that
| the device is defective, or that the advertisement was
| false. If you are a for-profit company, would you not cut
| that "waste" of support by 33%?
|
| There is always the fear that the company is doing an
| evil thing and wants to harvest your life, but if Apple
| wanted to do that, they could. It's more likely that it's
| just part of the energy saving subsystem to direct users
| to optimal usage scenarios and things like "dim display
| automatically" and "use safari" are part of those
| scenarios. There really isn't much else gained by using
| Safari, not by Apple and not by the user. So either both
| gain a "yes the battery does last longer and the computer
| is responsive", or they both lose that. There is no PII
| telemetry in Safari, and cross-device data sharing (like
| Bookmarks) are encrypted within the iCloud Circle if you
| are using that, so Apple can't see that either (except if
| you also enable iCloud Backup on an iOS device), so for
| data harvesting, it's not really an incentive.
|
| What would be an interesting option is a "do not use
| notifications to suggest optimal software-hardware
| interactions" checkbox somewhere so they can just list
| side-effects near the actual preferences instead of all
| over the place.
| SheinhardtWigCo wrote:
| Apple bends its own rules by using push notifications to
| promote Apple Music:
| https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/18/18229492/apple-music-
| push...
|
| Apple sends push notification advertising Emmy nominations:
| https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/07/15/apple-sends-
| unsol...
|
| Apple caught spamming iPhone 12 owners with free Apple Arcade
| offers: https://www.idownloadblog.com/2020/10/28/apple-
| arcade-free-o...
|
| Apple is advertising its monthly iPhone installment plan in
| the Wallet app:
| https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/12/16/iphone-financing-
| wa...
| tiffanyh wrote:
| There are just certain things I'm not expecting to experience
| ads.
|
| On my OS is one, in my car while driving is another, I really
| hope we're not moving towards world where ads are literally
| everywhere.
| akagusu wrote:
| It's an interesting thing to read people complaining about their
| shitty Windows experience and yet continuing to use Windows in of
| changing their computer's OS.
|
| Another thing is that people forget about software ownership.
|
| You don't own your computer's OS, Microsoft does,and according
| its abusive terms of service that no one cares about, they can do
| whatever they want with their products, including show you ads or
| anything that disrupt your experience, because the OS is made to
| serve them, not you.
| HL33tibCe7 wrote:
| Microsoft act with utter contempt for their users. I now
| recommend to anyone who asks me that they purchase a Mac instead.
| Their machines will last longer, they will get better customer
| support, and they won't have to put up with stupid shit like
| this. I can't in good conscience recommend Windows any longer.
| faeriechangling wrote:
| Apple may be better but they're getting into using their OS to
| push ads themselves. Only Linux is truly free of adware, at
| least if you install the right distro.
| immibis wrote:
| No company is better. Any company that tries to do better is
| driven to bankruptcy by market forces.
|
| Don't buy a Mac - they may not have ads but they have their own
| problems. Your best option is apparently to buy a PC and run
| Linux.
| [deleted]
| beefman wrote:
| Horrible but predictable: http://lumma.org/microwave/#2006.09.22
| AdamN wrote:
| I tried setting up my Mom's computer a few weeks ago. I can't
| imagine anybody using Windows these days, truly awful CX.
| kuboble wrote:
| Business idea: ads in git status
| immibis wrote:
| I'm pretty sure `git push` and `git pull` display whatever
| banner the server decides to send. So this could be implemented
| in Github tomorrow with no git update needed.
| HL33tibCe7 wrote:
| "GRUB loading... Please watch this 30 second advert before
| selecting your operating system."
| rabuse wrote:
| Stop... you stop that right now.
| phaistra wrote:
| Don't give them ideas!
| agumonkey wrote:
| If you ever get funding, may I suggest ads if gdb too ?
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Ads could be used as canaries/filler for uninitialized
| memory.
|
| Edit: this segmentation fault is sponsored by Raid Shadow
| Legends. Use the code SIGSEGV at signup to get a free bonus!
| agumonkey wrote:
| proper genius
| WalterGR wrote:
| Wow. And the Audacity of Microsoft to use the warning icon next
| to the ad:
|
| https://mobile.twitter.com/flobo09/status/150264586620470477...
| laurent123456 wrote:
| Soon that's how Microsoft apps will look like -
| https://blog.malwarebytes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Ad8...
| winternett wrote:
| The way Twitter displays post images in itself is also terrible
| UI...
|
| :(
| rejectfinite wrote:
| Try Nitter instead
|
| https://nitter.net/flobo09/status/1502645866204704773
|
| No need to login either.
|
| I have seen
|
| https://github.com/SimonBrazell/privacy-redirect
|
| linked here so I use it.
| rekoil wrote:
| Hadn't seen this, thanks for the tip!
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| Wow indeed. That's incredibly slimy.
| khaledh wrote:
| Funny that you used the word "audacity", which actually appears
| as a folder in the screenshot :)
| [deleted]
| pmarreck wrote:
| Good thing "Files" already exists, then:
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/files-app/9nghp3dx8hdx?act...
| at_a_remove wrote:
| I wonder if this will make its way into the Enterprise LTSC
| version or not.
|
| I will likely be recommending it -- we really do NOT have an
| alternative to Windows (and I know someone will try to be clever
| about it and make any number of suggestions that aren't going to
| actually work for us) -- but I can imagine some fairly large
| software vendors starting to consider Linux compatibility just
| because of how noxious this is.
| jug wrote:
| I solely use Windows 11 at home right now and can even take ads
| in Solitaire or something, but placing ads in system tools is a
| red line for me. I'd have to move to Linux again if this becomes
| true with no way of disabling it by officially supported methods,
| and do some of my current desktop development for Windows in a
| virtual machine.
| teh_klev wrote:
| Apropos Solitaire, what made me laugh:
|
| https://imgur.com/a/OEAlctw
|
| Absolutely no self-awareness there.
|
| I think it's the shitness of the ads in Solitaire, those very
| low quality "You won't believe how she looks now". Pure
| scraping of the barrel.
|
| I wouldn't mind if I got punted ads for stuff like coffee or
| Philips LED lights. Fortunately I've been able to block
| Solitaire's worst offenders, the ones for those lootbox games
| that play at the highest volume possible. And you can't even
| mute them permanently because each new one that pops up somehow
| creates a new "Application" in the Volume Mixer.
| dm319 wrote:
| You've already got Ads in your start bar though?
| warning26 wrote:
| Adding ads to Solitaire was really the start of darkness for
| post-Vista Microsoft.
|
| Yes, Windows 8 had a lot of bad UX decisions, but those were
| well-meaning, if totally misguided. Ripping out the (excellent)
| Windows 10 Solitaire in exchange for the ad-filled monstrosity
| that was Microsoft Solitaire collection was just _malicious_.
| immibis wrote:
| It's not malicious - it's capitalist.
| downrightmike wrote:
| I can't even internet with ads. dns blocking, ublock origin and
| other things. I can't understand why others even put up with
| all the crap. I've gotten one too many viruses from on-page
| advertising where I've had to wipe and reinstall.
| tssva wrote:
| These type of "ads" can already be disabled by turning of "Tips
| and suggestions" in the System->Notification settings.
| usednet wrote:
| This is why I only use Enterprise LTSC versions of Windows.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| When is a file explorer about being distracted from going about
| your business? People will just migrate to Q-Dir.
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| Just today, discovered a couple apps on my son's Windows profile
| that he must have accidentally installed since just browsing
| Windows can cause you to accidentally install apps from the
| Microsoft Store.
|
| After I uninstalled them, I went to hide them from the Store to
| prevent the same issue, and nope. Microsoft won't even let you
| hide apps that you accidentally installed now from the Store.
| This is in addition to not being able to delete apps from your
| account either that you installed from their pathetic Store.
|
| Don't get me started on them collecting everything you click on
| and search for in Windows as well even if you disable telemetry
| by simply logging into a Microsoft account for the Windows Store
| (for example, if you use Xbox for PC).
| shmde wrote:
| I am still using Windows 10 LTSC version and have dual booted it
| Pop OS. I do everything on Windows for now but I have all my work
| setup configured on pop. The day MS pulls this stunt on win 10
| and hard codes Ads on file explorer, I am yeeting out all windows
| service for good. Planning to use windows 10 till they support it
| then I will switch completely to Linux because I am NEVER
| downgrading to Windows 11. ( Have you seen the UI pffft)
| rkagerer wrote:
| Words can't express the visceral anger this level of obnoxious,
| user-hostile behavior provokes.
| yummybear wrote:
| "This file is sponsored by Squarespace. How dystopian.
| dessant wrote:
| My favourite is when you open the Galaxy Store on a flagship
| Samsung phone and a popup with a promoted game is shoved in your
| face every single time.
|
| The popup will often have a 3 second delay before it interrupts
| you due to the performance issues of their ad servers, so you
| open the app store and just wait there for the inevitable popup
| to appear before you can dismiss it to continue using the app.
|
| The "Get news and special offers" option is disabled in the app,
| but none of that matters, the popup ads at app start are there on
| all Samsung Galaxy devices I've tested.
| na85 wrote:
| You mean a 3rd-party Android manufacturer bundles bloatware?!?!
|
| All sarcasm aside I really don't understand why anyone would
| voluntarily use a Samsung phone.
| gambiting wrote:
| I have an S21 and honestly have no issues with it. Never seen
| any ads either. I don't use the galaxy store though(no idea
| what it's for tbh, it's not like you're forced to use it). As
| to "why" - it's extremely nice hardware, on par or better
| than most iPhones in my opinion, it "just works" day in day
| out.
| rabuse wrote:
| "Never seen any ads" lol...
| gambiting wrote:
| I mean please tell me where to go on this phone to find
| them, and I will check right this second.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Just did a fresh install last week. Outside of the Galaxy
| Store (which I disabled day-one), I never saw a single
| ad. Am I missing something?
| MisterSandman wrote:
| You probably live in the US/Canada? It is bad, VERY bad
| on some of their phones in India.
| immibis wrote:
| Other than a Librem or PinePhone, what else would you
| suggest?
| computerliker69 wrote:
| What do you use? I currently use a pixel 2 and when it craps
| out I'd like to try something different.
| na85 wrote:
| I like my OnePlus, but they have become quite pricey of
| late.
| goosedragons wrote:
| Shrug. They're fine. It's not hard to ignore that stuff.
| Honestly Apple's constant iCloud storage notifications are
| more annoying than pop-ups in the Galaxy Store you'll
| probably never visit anyways.
| dessant wrote:
| Galaxy Store is the only way to update several essential
| packages on Samsung devices, they don't publish everything
| on Google Play.
| goosedragons wrote:
| But you can update through the app instead which skips
| going through the front of Galaxy Store. That's what I've
| always done anyways.
| dessant wrote:
| That works to some extent, but there are packages which
| don't have a UI from which to check for updates, so you
| could end up with some services becoming outdated and
| broken, or just vulnerable.
| sm_1024 wrote:
| My s21 updates all the system apps itself, I don't
| remember the last time I had to go into the galaxy store
| to do that.
| tuankiet65 wrote:
| Well, if I'm looking to buy an Android phone with the latest
| specs, then it's either a Pixel, Samsung or OnePlus. Out of
| those, I guess Pixels are less bloaty than any other phones,
| except if preinstalled Google apps are 'bloaty'. And there's
| always an option to bootloader unlock and install LineageOS.
| theamk wrote:
| Are there other options? I want wireless charging and under
| $600, and there is basically nothing except Samsung or no-
| name brands.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| The delay is intentional, so that you tap "Accept" on the popup
| which appears just under your thumb as you were about to tap
| something else.
| basicplus2 wrote:
| use windows server instead
| HeckFeck wrote:
| Ah, reminds me of the good old days when I connected a Windows 98
| box directly to the public Internet and was spammed every 10
| minutes with WinPopup messages, instructing me to visit a dodgy
| website for "registry booster virus removal".
|
| I'll certainly enjoy the throwback to simpler times.
| er4hn wrote:
| It sometimes feels like Microsoft has their own "Tick-Tock"
| development model for Windows. This is the tock where we get to
| break prior working hardware, have ugly design decisions made,
| and who knows what else.
|
| Hopefully the tick for Windows 12 will be better than this tock.
| kergonath wrote:
| First thought: hell no! Second thought: _fucking hell_ no!
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| Does anyone make a serious OS for people who need to get real
| work done on their computer anymore?
|
| Some recent frustrations with the big 3 OSs:
|
| 1. MacOS: The File>Save dialog has a unchangeable 35 character
| limit for what can be viewed in the file name field. WTF?! It's
| like these jokers have never worked in a real office where people
| create documents with dictated naming conventions like [Customer
| Name]_[Project Name]_[Project subtask]-[Date]. Maybe they think
| it is a way to force businesses to use Tags? Dear Apple, your OS
| seems toy like.
|
| 2. Linux: There is an age old Ubuntu bug (which bleeds into many
| Ubuntu based Distributions) where the installer wipes out the
| bootloader of a drive that you aren't even installing the OS on.
| Dear open source community: your desktop OSs are still hobbyist
| tweaker mode. I
|
| 3. Windows: First data mining telemetry and now you are going to
| show me ads? Dear MS, you keep trying to be Google or Facebook
| and all it has done is undermine a once serious OS.
|
| (note that this is just a "what pissed me off this week list" and
| not intended to be a comprehensive criticism)
| hef19898 wrote:
| The last tike I installed an OS myself, before Ubuntu and a
| new, clean Windows on my laptops, was Windows 2000. Ubuntu was
| actually easier to get running on the daily driver then a
| clean, local account only Windows 10 on the back up. No
| problems with Ubuntu whatsoever, not sure how much of that is
| due to Ubuntu or Lenovo so.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| Most enterprises are using AD domain or Azure AD joined Windows
| 10 or 11 PCs. With an IT admin that tries to turn off as much
| that crap as possible. + Office 365 for email, Teams, Office
| apps etc.
|
| Linux on the desktop is not really doable. Why? GPO/Intune
| polices. Interoperability with other companies/customers.
|
| Same for Mac. JAMF or Intune MDM would need to be added.
| matkoniecz wrote:
| > There is an age old Ubuntu bug (which bleeds into many Ubuntu
| based Distributions) where the installer wipes out the
| bootloader of a drive that you aren't even installing the OS on
|
| Can you link bug report? Personally I never encountered it (and
| while I had some corruptions over time I would say that Windows
| is even worse here and I would not call it to be in hobbyist
| tweaker mode)
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1229.
| ..
|
| This link talks in detail about the problem and its solutions
| (all of which were more time suck than I was willing to
| commit):
| https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=287353
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| I've encountered a couple of times. In my case it screwed up
| the bootloader of a hackintosh macOS install on a drive the
| installer gave no indication it was going to do anything to.
|
| Thankfully fixing it wasn't too bad, but it shouldn't have
| happened in the first place. No other distro I've installed
| shares this problem.
| bsder wrote:
| > 2. Linux: There is an age old Ubuntu bug (which bleeds into
| many Ubuntu based Distributions) where the installer wipes out
| the bootloader of a drive that you aren't even installing the
| OS on. Dear open source community: your desktop OSs are still
| hobbyist tweaker mode.
|
| Maybe that's true, but ...
|
| I had a _very_ similar thing happen on Windows 10. I set up a
| new SSD in order to install a new version of Windows with the
| idea that I would switch out the old SSD to an external drive.
|
| No big deal. So, I installed Windows on the new drive. Set
| everything up. Life looked good. I removed the old SSD.
|
| And the system wouldn't boot. WTF?!?!
|
| Turns out that if there is already a Windows bootloader then
| the Windows installer will put your boot information on it
| _even if you tell it otherwise_. You can 't force an install
| and bootloader onto a new drive if it detects an existing
| install _anywhere_.
|
| I had to remove the old drive, remformat the new drive, and
| _completely reinstall_ so Windows would install the boot
| partition and boot loader properly.
|
| I was "rather cross" to quote my UK brethren.
| Isthatablackgsd wrote:
| One issue I have with macOS is their dialog navigation.
| Whenever I get the dialog like saving change dialog in Preview
| when using Command + Q combo, I cannot use my arrow keys to
| move to the lower/next button in the dialog. I have to use my
| mice like a peasant! It is not an issue in Linux and Windows,
| just curious why Apple can't add that?
| donbrae wrote:
| You need to enable it: https://support.apple.com/en-
| us/HT204434 > 'Use your keyboard like a mouse'.
| zamalek wrote:
| There are multiple ways to solve the bootloader issue, but the
| easiest is putting your Linux drive ahead of your Windows drive
| in firmware settings, during installation.
| zamalek wrote:
| Windows will absolutely blast your boot sector/UEFI partition
| with no concern for other OSes (it won't chain load). Mac
| avoids this with Bootcamp, which is more similar to firmware
| than an OS.
|
| I'm surprised the parent comment has this issue. They are
| either using BIOS, or the automatic disk mode (and just
| complained about the installer doing things automatically on
| their disk). Avoiding this scenario is UEFI is as simple as
| creating a exFAT partition and mounting it to /boot. Any
| calamares-based installer will let you do that.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Shhhhhh let's ignore basic facts and define our experience
| with an OS as the only valid take on the OS :)
| [deleted]
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| What I found was that you could remove the other drive. That
| won't work on an Intel MacBook though...
| julianlam wrote:
| May I kindly ask what distro you last tried?
|
| I ask mainly because I came to a realization not too long ago
| that I stopped using Windows back when 7 was released. It's
| been a bumpy road, but my last few installs in the past half-
| decade were more for fun (spring cleaning) or trying out a new
| distro, and not because I borked my system running errant
| commands.
|
| Especially if you're not using bleeding edge hardware, almost
| all things just work.
|
| I know you'll bring up the usual refrains of "hey how about
| that hibernate function in linux?" or "how are your video
| drivers lately?", and while they're all legitimate points,
| Windows has got its own fair share of "wtfs" that Windows users
| are all too quick to gloss over.
|
| Maybe I'm being a bit of an old man here (mid-30s), but I
| remember booting into a fresh XP install and having nothing
| work properly. No video drivers, no ethernet, no wifi, no
| sound... it usually led to a full day of installing drivers.
| You'll probably say Windows is better now, and it probably is.
| Again, I just haven't used Windows in over a decade.
|
| I don't remember the last time I logged into a fresh linux
| install and didn't have ethernet.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| Linux Mint wiped out the boot loader on my Intel MacBook even
| though I was installing it on an external drive. I'm much
| older and agree that some modern Linux distributions are
| smoother than old-school Windows. I am just pointing out that
| Linux still requires a lot of unnecessary time suck due to it
| being in the "hobbyist tweaker" category.
| maltelau wrote:
| One time Windows 10 wiped the boot loader on my desktop and
| threw a fit until I formatted the whole disk so it could
| place itself first unlike the partition I thought I had
| assigned it.
|
| Then I reinstalled windows 10 on the same computer a couple
| of years later and the installer couldn't even format my
| drive to install it, just threw bland "not working" errors
| until I manually formatted and installed the windows
| bootloader from a rescue drive.
|
| What's your point?
| goosedragons wrote:
| Did you set it to install the bootloader on the external
| drive? I'm not so sure it's a bug as preference to put the
| bootloader on sda or whatever the first drive is. You can
| definitely change it.
|
| I've had MacOS kill a day trying to get gdb working but I
| could never get it properly working with codesign despite
| following multiple tutorials to do exactly that. I've also
| had Windows decide to do things like sliently update my
| tablet rotation driver to one that actually doesn't work
| with the hardware. They can all be unnecessary time sucks.
| smallerfish wrote:
| On a macbook you're in hobbyist territory unfortunately,
| with Linux. It doesn't even work on various recent years of
| macbooks, due to various ways Apple locked things down.
|
| Same goes for MS Surface hardware - you _can_ get it
| working, but there are more hoops to jump through.
|
| Try it on less locked down and more open hardware and
| you'll have more reliable results.
| t-writescode wrote:
| On everything but the server, you're a hobbyist with
| Linux, unfortunately.
|
| It's perfectly fine and hobbyists make *amazing* things;
| but it remains very niche and tinkerer/hobbyist level.
|
| For everyone else, there's, Windows, Android, iOS,
| Chromebooks and Mac... I think in that order, even.
| smallerfish wrote:
| > On everything but the server, you're a hobbyist with
| Linux, unfortunately.
|
| That's far from true. On reasonably non-esoteric desktop
| hardware it's robust. On most laptops (unless you're
| using an external 4K screen) it's also perfectly fine.
| xtracto wrote:
| > On reasonably non-esoteric desktop hardware it's
| robust. On most laptops (unless you're using an external
| 4K screen) it's also perfectly fine.
|
| I hate when people trying to defend Linux prepend their
| "defenses" with "most X", "reasonably Y". Because once
| the the counterexamples of stuff not working in Linux
| show up, they just shield on "well, I didn't say all of
| them", "well, it works for me".
|
| Look, I've been a Linux developer and power user for 20
| years, I've compiled Linux Kernels several time, I've
| tinkered with OSS, ALSA, Pulse, WinModem firmwares,
| USRobotic modems, SSD/Trim params, Bluetooth, printers,
| games, graphic cards, countless Linux versions and
| whatnot.
|
| My current PC is Linux Mint exclusively (I even play on
| it using steam ), but being realistic, it is NOT the case
| that Desktop Linux is "robust" on PCs or Laptops. There
| is _always_ something, there will always going to be an
| issue that will make you have to tinker with it one way
| or another _always_.
| t-writescode wrote:
| We're using multiple definitions of "hobbyist". The act
| of using Linux outside of the server context for a
| personal machine is hobbyist.
|
| There are hobbyists within the hobby.
| smallerfish wrote:
| > The act of using Linux outside of the server context
| for a personal machine is hobbyist.
|
| I don't know how you arrive at that, unless you're
| trolling or haven't gone that deep on Linux. Linux is a
| far better development environment for many languages and
| ecosystems than Windows, and Mac (granted of course that
| you'll have a much better time on Windows with .NET,
| etc). I've been forced to use both now and again in
| various jobs over the years and have always gone back to
| Linux.
|
| Mac is better for non-programming office software, and
| Windows has better games support.
| t-writescode wrote:
| I've never met a person that thinks Numbers is better
| than Excel. Word, too. Keynote is popular, of course, for
| Mac OS X.
|
| I made a poor definition of "personal machine". It did
| not include development. Developing software at home and
| for fun is, of course, a relatively niche hobby; but, I
| will grant you that Linux is a very, very good
| development environment.
|
| Mac OS X is pretty great for photographers and
| cinematographers, etc.
|
| At least as of 2020
| (https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-
| share...), Windows had 87% market share, Mac OS had about
| 10.7, and Linux had 1.7. IT looks like it was based
| around UserAgent checking? Which means it would include
| software developer's worker machines when they log into
| random websites, as well.
|
| You're using the words "better experience", etc; but,
| perhaps the problem here is that we're not using the same
| definition of "hobbyist". Product quality had nothing to
| do with hobbyist in my definition. It was more "support
| expectations".
| moltke wrote:
| Linux with eg OpenBSD CWM with xterms.
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| If the worst thing about macOS is that there's a text field you
| have to scroll to see all of its contents, I'd say the OS is
| pretty serious.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| I beg you to create a bunch of files with >35 char names and
| then try to work with them. I bet you'll be looking at all
| that wasted blank space before and after the text box and
| wanting to scream WTF at the dev team that lets this
| obnoxious user experience stand.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| For some reason padding has been growing over the last few
| releases of macOS, and font sizes too, which means that
| things with long titles are now truncated everywhere ...
|
| I remember when we Mac users made fun of DOS with their 8
| char file names (HFS supported 32).
|
| Now we can have even longer filenames, but macOS only shows
| them truncated...
| esjeon wrote:
| > 2. Linux: There is an age old Ubuntu bug (which bleeds into
| many Ubuntu based Distributions) where the installer wipes out
| the bootloader of a drive that you aren't even installing the
| OS on. Dear open source community: your desktop OSs are still
| hobbyist tweaker mode.
|
| Then stop using Ubuntu. But, to be fair, the whole
| Ubuntu/Debian installation scene is quite a facepalm. The
| installer is overly complicated and completely undocumented.
| Also, they didn't really account for any serious customization.
| 015a wrote:
| To be realistic: Windows and MacOS are both great for getting
| "real work done".
|
| I've never had an issue with this "35 character file save
| prompt" limit, and I cannot imagine it would be a dealbreaker
| even if I did.
|
| Telemetry is irrelevant to getting "real work" done, assuming
| its implemented in a way which doesn't impact performance, and
| I've never had an issue on Windows. What you're talking about
| is privacy concerns, which are very, very legitimate; and have
| nothing to do with "real work".
|
| Some things are more productive in Mac, others are more
| productive in Windows. I'll die on this hill: Microsoft Paint
| is a top 5 productivity application for me. If I need to
| quickly take an image, layer a second image on top of it,
| resize, and add some text; there's nothing more productive than
| Paint for that. The result looks like shit, but its
| _productive_. The ability to hit Win+Shift+S, screenshot a part
| of the screen, then immediately paste it somewhere? Huge. MacOS
| has nothing like this; it has all the same basic tools, but
| they don 't tie together to enable the same velocity; even the
| screen clipping tool takes like 5 seconds for the image to
| leave the screen corner and hit the filesystem. Notepad is
| another example; I open notepad and can immediately start
| typing. On MacOS, I can open Notes, CMD+N to get a new note, it
| defaults to formatting for the title but at least that works;
| or you can do TextEdit, and you're presented with a "create a
| new document" dialog; no thanks. Little moments which add up.
|
| But where does MacOS pull ahead? If I need to edit a video?
| Windows has nothing for me; maybe DaVinci, but its hyper-pro
| level tooling. iMovie is great, and years ago I splurged on the
| buy-once-and-done FCPX subscription: its fantastic. Photo
| editing beyond what Paint can do? No, I'm not paying $200/month
| for Photoshop; maybe you can try GIMP, but I'm using my $20 og
| Pixelmator purchase from a decade ago, it works great (ugh I
| guess I should support them and buy the new one). All the UNIX
| tooling of course. Need some light CAD? I love Shapr3D; and I'm
| super happy to see its coming to Windows soon, but
| traditionally its been an Apple-only thing. In short: MacOS
| owns Prosumer-tier software; Pro-Pro tier stuff tends to be on
| Windows+Mac (like, Adobe), but there's a ton of cool software
| right below that which is Mac-only.
|
| Linux is the one OS where I have broad issues getting work
| done. If I'm developing a website or a web app? Sure, it works
| as good as anything else (better than Windows to be fair). But
| go beyond that and there are dragons. A juxtoposition of trying
| to make mediocre web apps or libre software work for workloads
| which should be native. CAD? No Fusion360, no Shapr3D...
| Tinkercad I guess? Vectary, kinda ok. LibreCAD, I'm sure was
| productive in 1997. Spreadsheet guru? Calc & Google Sheets have
| come a long way, but they're still in another realm compared to
| Excel; but I'm a big personal fan of Numbers, as it doesn't try
| to be Excel and instead serves a slightly different kind of
| user.
| sergiotapia wrote:
| Been using Linux Mint as primary driver for over a year now. It
| works flawlessly. I have _zero_ patience for debugging and
| tweaking my OS. I want to work, not tweak Linux. I used to love
| tweaking back in Ubuntu 7 Feisty Fawn. Now that I'm in my 30s I
| don't give a shit.
|
| Take this as a glowing endorsement of Linux Mint. Try it. You
| won't waste time with bullshit.
| Zachsa999 wrote:
| I love Linux Mint. The only bullshit I had was having to
| recompile the kernal for my gpu
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| I agree that Mint is pretty good. I use it on a few older
| laptops with decent results, but Mint also wiped out the Boot
| loader on my Intel MacbookPro :(
| elorant wrote:
| Sure they do. You can get a long term Windows version which
| receives only critical updates. Or you can get one of the
| multitudes of Linux distros.
| blibble wrote:
| LTSC is almost impossible to buy legitimately for individuals
| usednet wrote:
| Just download an iso online and use a KMS activator server.
| Takes 5 minutes and Microsoft is a 2 trillion dollar
| company.
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| I mean, you can do an OS yourself, or you can learn how to use
| an existing OS, I use Gentoo GNU/Linux and do things manually,
| never got the boot driver wiped as I do the partitioning
| myself, and also do the partitioning when I use some more
| userfriendly distros (on my work laptop because compiling on
| laptops is not nice so I won't use gentoo there). But yeah I
| mean you complain a lot, but for OSX and Windows you have no
| chance of resolving your issues, on linux you just need to be
| capable and willing to understand and read some documentation
| and you're good to go, but it seems that in your situation
| you're the main problem, because unwilling to be restricted by
| proprietary systems but also unwilling to learn, so it seems
| like we need to make an OS built on your preference while you
| just "want to get work done", why should we do that? Be
| restricted or learn to learn
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| >on linux you just need to be capable and willing to
| understand and read some documentation
|
| If it were really as simple as reading the official
| documentation, then yeah, I'd concede this point. The reality
| is that finding the _correct_ solution to a (non-corner case)
| problem is a spaghetti splat mess of links all over the
| internet with no guarantee that they are _the_ answer you
| need.
|
| I have been doing this stuff for more decades than many on
| this site have been alive so I am capable of dealing with
| some arcane shit. BUT I know all too well the value of time
| and Linux is still in the "hobbyist tweaker" category. I'll
| use it for some things, but I am looking for a Desktop OS
| that I can actually do work on, not kill time tweaking.
| [deleted]
| andi999 wrote:
| The issue on linux is that the software you need for your
| business doesnt run on it. This one you cannot fix yourself.
| tremon wrote:
| Since most "software" is now a web page, that problem is
| slowly getting solved by the industry.
| immibis wrote:
| That means Microsoft Office, specifically. Right?
| xtracto wrote:
| And Aspel, or Contpaq for accountants in Mexico. Among
| countless of real software used for real productive
| things.
| andi999 wrote:
| Office yes. Xilinx FPGA Toolchain, CAD, Visual Studio
| (ok, ok forget the last one)
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Yeah that is fair, there is a lot of people who need
| certain software which is not available on linux, but I
| was wondering what can the linux community do? I mean the
| guy at the parent comment described a problem which was
| easily solvable, and other people instead decsribed
| problems on which linux has no control over, if the
| vendor of the software you need for you business doesn't
| bother to create a software you need for your business
| for linux, bring it to the vendor of the software you
| need for you business, not to linux
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Fair enough, but I think that there are either
| alternatives, but also this was no the issue listed, the
| issue listed is like very easily solvable, I think the
| solution might even be on the getting started /
| installation guide of most distributions
| Zachsa999 wrote:
| Show me a high quality cad software for Linux.
|
| Absolute bugger no. Freecad is the best, and it's pretty
| bad.
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| And this is a issue with linux or solvable by linux
| because..? I mean if vendors didn't do CAD for windows,
| windows wouldn't have a quality CAD software either, ask
| your vendor to make the quality CAD for linux
| dharmab wrote:
| Most truly serious professionals I know are either using macOS
| with Homebrew or Arch Linux. They've accepted they need to take
| managing their OS into their own hands because anyone else will
| bungle the job. They spend a few weeks to learn their OS'
| internals in depth and then rarely lose significant time
| troubleshooting issues in the future.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| Most truly serious professionals I know are using Windows 10
| or 11 on a work provided Lenovo/HP or Dell laptop.
| lloydatkinson wrote:
| Agreed, seem like a very pretentious comment from OP that
| doesn't seem related to the real world.
| esjeon wrote:
| > Arch Linux
|
| Seriously?
|
| 1. Paid apps normally support Ubuntu out of box, but it's
| rarely a case for Arch. AUR is not a "professional" place at
| any senses.
|
| 2. Arch is a rolling distro that breaks completely randomly.
| Major breakages are introduced by both the distro and
| upstreams.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| Ah I knew that there would be an Arch user somewhere around
| here. Meanwhile I've used Ubuntu for over a decade with
| virtually zero issues and during that decade Arch users both
| newb and old have continued to declare there is only one true
| OS and that I'm doing it wrong while I tell them "I'm glad
| you enjoy your OS"
| klohto wrote:
| Seems like you've switched the positions :)
| fortran77 wrote:
| I can learn MacOS or Arch "internals in depth" -- even the
| proprietary stuff in MacOS -- in "a few weeks?"
|
| I'm glad I use an OS where I don't have to know the
| internals.
| Thorentis wrote:
| Linux Mint. Sure, you will have some quirks with any Linux
| distro if you install on a Macbook (blame Apple), but it is by
| far the easiest to use, most well supported "productivity"
| distro I have ever used.
| pizza234 wrote:
| Engineering is the art of solving problem within constraints ;)
|
| Jokes aside, every O/S essentially needs periodic maintenance,
| in the form of workarounds, that needs to be applied on every
| major update. That's just how it works - O/Ss and hardware
| became too complex to get a handle.
|
| I've found that Linux distros require a _lot_ of work upfront,
| and relatively little every couple of years (assuming a distro
| with an LTS release schedule).
|
| I think Mac is similar, except that the work upfront is
| considerably less.
|
| I'm also familiar with Windows, but I frankly find new
| developments very offensive, in particular, those on Windows
| 11, so I ended up sticking with a relatively untweaked Window
| 10 (used only for specific use cases, thankfully).
|
| The only solution in order to have a very stable system, is to
| choose a platform and stick with it. Given the ease of switch,
| I do see engineers switching machine and O/S, illuding
| themselves of finding a more stable experience, and ending up
| instead with a lot "upfront" work each time, without managing
| to stabilize the system.
| DemiGuru wrote:
| This has the potential to become a serious security risk. Picture
| the following - you're running File Explorer with admin creds,
| all while invoking a malvertisement.
| chaorace wrote:
| FYI: these are in-ecosystem ads (so they all come from MS). The
| messaging is quite similar what they already do with
| notifications elsewhere in the system ("Edge is faster than
| Chrome").
|
| It's still manipulative bullshit, but it's not the gaping
| security hole that it sounds like it 'ought to be. Even so...
| this type of behavior is what made me drop Windows over 5 years
| ago now.
| kemotep wrote:
| In the past Microsoft has had issues with subdomain
| takeovers[0], resulting in spam being distributed by their
| own domains.
|
| Without strict guarantees and control over the way this
| content is delivered to end user systems, how can we know
| that a similar type of attack could not happen? This time in
| a potentially administrative level file explorer?
|
| [0]: https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-has-a-subdomain-
| hija...
| gruez wrote:
| >Without strict guarantees and control over the way this
| content is delivered to end user systems, how can we know
| that a similar type of attack could not happen? This time
| in a potentially administrative level file explorer?
|
| Sounds like you're not really against ads, but _any_ sort
| of stuff that can change runtime behavior (eg. feature
| flagging) or retrieves content dynamically.
| chaorace wrote:
| I don't believe it has yet been established if these ads
| are downloaded on-demand. If the messaging is instead
| shipped via Windows Update, I don't think that would create
| any additional attack surfaces.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| > these are in-ecosystem ads (so they all come from MS).
|
| For now.
|
| I think it's incredibly naive to believe it would stay that
| way. Or maybe I'm just cynical.
|
| EDIT: Considering the fact that the Start menu displays ads
| for 3rd party software, nah, I think it's naive to assume the
| ads in Explorer would always come from MS.
| notamy wrote:
| Right? Imagine what happens when a program hijacks it to
| inject malvertising or smth similarly nefarious...
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Every bad day for Microsoft is a good day for Linux.
|
| Better question: Where in windows won't there be any ads? Will
| there be ghost ads behind the command line interface? Will they
| sell space on the BSOD?
| bitwize wrote:
| I'd suggest switching to Linux but I suspect the most common
| response will be a Lemongrab-esque "UNACCEPTABLE."
| dm319 wrote:
| Lots of people asking about alternatives to Windows here. I've
| found Ubuntu-MATE to be very good for my needs. It uses the
| Ubuntu base which gives it access to the debian software repo as
| well as being a popular distro so often particular use-cases have
| been fixed for it. However the MATE aspect is a follow-on from an
| older desktop environment (Gnome 2), which is a fairly no-
| nonsense, feature rich and polished environment. It remains under
| active development and keeps thing simple. I prefer this to the
| changing sands that is Gnome 3 / Unity or Ubuntu's adaption of
| Gnome 3.
| signal11 wrote:
| This has got to be an Apple mole attempting corporate sabotage in
| the Windows team, right? right? :-)
|
| This comment is a joke, to be clear. But the idea of irrelevant
| infobars / ads in Windows Explorer is ... pretty daft.
| emerged wrote:
| Hah. I've been using Windows for my primary desktop for 30 years.
| I'm removing it the instant I start getting ads like that. That's
| my limit.
| JCWasmx86 wrote:
| Ads in paid software? This is simply ridiculous.
| PenguinCoder wrote:
| Heard of cable TV? Or hell, Hulu even? Still a bunch of
| bullshit I refuse to use because of shit like this. But it has
| existed for a while.
| samsaga2 wrote:
| Maybe we don't need Windows anymore. Even Elden Ring works pretty
| well using wine.
| smoldesu wrote:
| Works better, actually. Valve fixed the stuttering issue with
| Proton, which still remains an issue on Windows.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| "pretty well" is still not going to be enough. If it is not
| using the hardware as well as Windows, then I am losing
| performance.
|
| There is also all the multiplayer games with anticheat that
| wont work or ban you on Linux. Destiny 2 for a recent example.
| And I understand them at one point.
| jeppester wrote:
| I have primarily used Linux for ~15 years. At this point I
| honestly believe that it's less painful to switch from Windows to
| Linux than the other way around.
|
| It's obviously still painful to change habits. And I won't
| downplay how Linux can often be difficult to get working
| perfectly.
|
| The problem with Windows is that it just feels downright user
| hostile. Ads here and there, MS products constantly pushed,
| wizards everywhere, taskbar icons for every piece of hardware.
| It's like you are renting your PC instead of owning it.
| rejectfinite wrote:
| > taskbar icons for every piece of hardware
|
| What?
| aeldidi wrote:
| For example, my laptop (https://support.hp.com/ph-
| en/document/c07686423 I think) has a taskbar icon for the
| touchpad and a taskbar icon for the AMD graphics. Neither of
| those things are custom parts, just default out of the
| factory.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Do we know for sure that these ads actually link to/show 3rd
| party content? Don't get me wrong, I'd find this confusing and
| annoying but it does look like it's just a link to Microsoft
| content promoting more of their own products.
| DemiGuru wrote:
| This might be an indication of the type of ads Microsoft
| already embeds in Windows 10's start menu:
| https://i.redd.it/bfc336ql88sz.png
| barbazoo wrote:
| I'd find that very annoying, indeed.
| aitchnyu wrote:
| I've logged in to MS Teams and instead of the web app, I get a
| landing screen asking me if I want to install the desktop app.
| Powershell also contains a URL-shortener link to their
| documentation.
| hdjjhhvvhga wrote:
| Give me one single reason to migrate.
| jmnicolas wrote:
| I use Linux and uBlock on desktop and Graphene OS and Bromite on
| mobile... what's an ad anyway?
| lostgame wrote:
| Wow; wow, wow.
|
| I honestly can't believe anyone uses this pile of shit OS
| anymore.
|
| I left Windows because adware and spyware became such a prevalent
| problem that I just got tired of dealing with it.
|
| But when the OS itself _is_ the adware, I just...I honestly don
| 't even know what to say. You couldn't pay me enough to use
| Windows. You really couldn't.
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