[HN Gopher] Ketamine for the acute treatment of severe suicidal ...
___________________________________________________________________
Ketamine for the acute treatment of severe suicidal ideation
Author : hochmartinez
Score : 94 points
Date : 2022-03-14 18:12 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bmj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bmj.com)
| olliej wrote:
| I've been getting intramuscular ketamine weekly for my severe &
| treatment resistant depression while working on making progress
| towards actual recovery. As with participants in this study I
| wasn't one of the lucky "I did ketamine a few times and my
| depression was cured" folk, but it has a huge reduction in
| frequency and intensity of ideation, as well as pretty much
| completely removing self harm.
|
| That said it's not a long term solution (because honestly its
| frustrating due to losing a few hours during the work week,
| inability to drive, etc) so I'm working with Drs to actually
| resolve things without regularly being stabbed :D
| standardUser wrote:
| I wish the gap between clinical treatment and recreational use
| was bridged, and you could use a nasal spray on your own time a
| couple evenings a week instead of a daytime injection.
| intenex wrote:
| The truly amazing thing here is how powerful the placebo control
| was, even despite the fact that as someone who's done ketamine IV
| treatment before, it's pretty obvious when you're on ketamine and
| when you're not.
|
| "At week 6, remission in the ketamine arm remained high, although
| non-significantly versus placebo (69.5% v 56.3%; odds ratio 0.8
| (95% confidence interval 0.3 to 2.5), P=0.7)."
| oldstrangers wrote:
| I did a full 6 week course of ketamine therapy. It was really
| good, and I would recommend it if you're open minded. It's not
| for everyone, and the lasting (a year+) benefits aren't really
| measurable (maybe I'm different? maybe I'm not, maybe I've just
| gotten older). I'd like to go again and see if it can help with
| my obsessive existential dread.
| aaaronic wrote:
| There are treatments for that? I've never had anyone suggest
| anything other than therapy for it.
| agumonkey wrote:
| what about how it felt early on / during the therapy ?
|
| what about side effects also ?
| bradly wrote:
| There is the "trip" side affect which lasts about 30-45
| minutes. Then there is some wobbly legs and slow speech for
| an hour or two after. I had no side-affects besides those.
| [deleted]
| mrwaffle wrote:
| Absolutely, I have a partner who has had severe PTSD and went
| through a great month-long program, she's overcome many
| longstanding fears and triggers and has made huge strides in
| being able to feel that she is living her life once again.
| jcims wrote:
| I wonder what the age limit is on stuff like this. So many
| young folks experiencing crippling anxieties that are
| impacting their ability to navigate the world at an age where
| it's going to have longstanding ramifications for
| relationships and careers.
| sshine wrote:
| I have a close acquaintance who uses ketamine to manage
| depression and Complex PTSD. My experience as a bystander is
| that the depressive symptoms reoccur periodically regardless
| of the use of ketamine. The depressive symptoms seem to be
| caused by the PTSD, and ketamine does not seem to alleviate
| the PTSD.
|
| I'm saying this as a huge fan of the positive impact of
| ketamine.
|
| There are some symptoms that seem like they need more
| rewiring.
| jokowueu wrote:
| May I recommend stellate gangelion block for PTSD .
|
| https://youtu.be/nC2fBe6U7lg
| hemloc_io wrote:
| What's the process for this like? Been curious about the
| current state of psych medicine.
| ketamine wrote:
| Not OP
|
| I did 2 surveys and a phone consult then a baseline
| depression survey before my first infusion.
|
| I go to the clinic and go in my room and they give me my IV
| then the doctor hangs the ketamine mix bag, hooks it up and
| leaves. The rooms are dark and they have colored lights or a
| dim light. I wear an eye mask.
|
| I pay extra to receive talk therapy during the infusion so I
| have a therapist with me the whole time. We do a ceremony to
| start each infusion and set the intent just before the
| effects start.
| ketamine wrote:
| It immediately relieved my existential dread. I fear the next
| infusion will be intense, however.
| ketamine wrote:
| Hello! Throwaway account for obvious reasons.
|
| I just started IV ketamine infusions at .5 mg/kg for depressions.
|
| I am not finished with my treatment yet.
|
| Ask me anything if you would like.
| glerk wrote:
| Any issues with your bladder? Have doctors mentioned anything
| about the potential damage to the urinary system? This seems to
| be the scariest side effect.
| rootw0rm wrote:
| This is part of the reason MXE was developed. Love me some
| MXE.
| chimeracoder wrote:
| I'm not OP, but I have some relevant professional (clinical)
| experience here.
|
| > Any issues with your bladder? Have doctors mentioned
| anything about the potential damage to the urinary system?
| This seems to be the scariest side effect.
|
| We're lucky because ketamine has been used for decades in
| inpatient settings at much, much higher doses than what is
| being used now for psychiatric purposes, so we have a good
| sense of its safety profile already.
|
| Urinary tract and bladder issues are noted for long-term and
| frequent recreational users of ketamine, but not really for
| anesthetic use. The dosing schedule for psychiatric use is
| closer to anesthetic use than it is for recreational use.
|
| The effects also are reversible if detected early and use is
| ceased, so periodic but infrequent treatment is unlikely to
| result in long-term damage, both because it's not frequent
| enough to accumulate, and because you can stop if it becomes
| a problem.
| VyperCard wrote:
| Good luck to you. It helped me a lot. I refresh it every three
| to four month with a single session and a 2 day of vacation
| away from everything in another town.
| [deleted]
| after_care wrote:
| > Then, patients received a first 40 minute intravenous infusion
| of ketamine (0.5 mg/kg) or placebo 0.9% (saline solution) in
| addition to their current treatment.
|
| This really shouldn't be labeled as double blind.
|
| 1.The nurse administering knew if it was placebo or active (for
| safety reasons).
|
| 2. It would immediately become obvious to the subject if they
| were injected with salt water or ketamine.
|
| 3. Within minutes it would become obvious to everyone in the room
| if the patient was injected with salt water or ketamine.
|
| Some trails are impossible to be double blind. That's okay, there
| are other ways to address concerns of internal validity.
| Pretending like this trail is double blind does not address any
| internal validity concerns, and only raises concerns about the
| researchers understanding of experimental design.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Injecting some other psychoactive drug should work, at least
| for patients who have never used ketamine before.
|
| But I suspect that would take many years to get through the
| permitting apparatus, if it was at all possible.
| after_care wrote:
| Injecting someone with another psychoactive drug would not be
| a placebo. We would be comparing the efficacy of {other
| psychoactive drug} and ketamine. That's not to say this
| experiment has no value, it's one of the many experiments we
| should run to help build the case for ketamine.
|
| The classic gold standard is to randomly assign subjects to
| groups. Then give one group a sugar pill, give the other
| group the treatment pill. Neither to patient, the person
| administering, or the person recording the results know who
| got the treatment who got the placebo. This is not possible
| with ketamine, psilocybin, MDMA, LSD, etc. That's fine, we
| can still build a strong body of experimental evidence of
| their efficacy. It bothers me when clearly non-blind non-mask
| experiments are labeled as double-blinded, which we see often
| in this body of research, this study included.
| phren0logy wrote:
| There is precedent for this; it's called "active placebo."
| For example, I think some of the psilocybin trials used
| methylphenidate as an active placebo comparison condition.
| after_care wrote:
| Sure, but as a scientist conducting an experiment I will
| be able to determine who is dosed with psilocybin and who
| is doses with methylphenidate >90% of the time, thus
| removing the observer mask. I think the average patient
| would be able to tell if they were dosed with psilocybin
| or methylphenidate, even if they were drug naive, thus
| removing the patient mask.
|
| I'm not saying it's impossible to conduct good
| experiments on these substances. I'm saying that they
| require special considerations of internal validity and
| it's incorrect to call this study (iv ketamine vs iv
| saline water) double blind.
| phren0logy wrote:
| The person assessing the depression response in the
| psilocybin studies is not in the room with the person
| while they are under the influence of the substance. The
| ratings are done on a different day. It's two different
| people to preserve blinding.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| 0.5mg/kg spread out over 40 minutes wouldn't be as dramatic as
| you're suggesting.
|
| > 3. Within minutes it would become obvious to everyone in the
| room if the patient was injected with salt water or ketamine.
|
| I think you're mistaking IV infusion for injection. The dose is
| given slowly over 40 minutes, not as a rapid injection. The
| patient would barely have any of the drug in their system in
| the first few minutes. Given the short duration of action, it
| wouldn't produce peak levels anywhere near what recreational
| users experience.
| [deleted]
| hadmatter wrote:
| I'm sorry but you are strongly over exaggerating the (side)
| effects of i.v. ketamine. It's not a dose that sends you in a K
| hole. It's way less than that. Some get sedation and some do
| get dissociative symptoms which can unmask the study arm of the
| patient. Approximately one out of ten got at least one of those
| side effects. Sedation can be mimicked with midazolam, so if
| you use that as placebo, you get 90 % of the patients that are
| not obvious, which medicine they got. I do agree that a better
| "placebo" would be good to use.
|
| The problem with ketamine and suicidality studies is that
| suicides - thankfully don't happen very often - so we have no
| direct evidence that ketamine prevents suicides. Of course if
| it would only alleviate suffering and wouldn't increase the
| rate of suicides, that would be a win too.
| dataisfun wrote:
| Umm...ketamine IV at these doses is most certainly a unique
| and insane experience, speaking as someone who's done it
| about a dozen times for anxiety.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| Can't reply so sibling but _WTF_ the username "ketamine"
| was still available... On HN ?
| bragr wrote:
| Are you getting it all at once or as an infusion?
| Considering this is given as an infusion over 40 minutes,
| this seems to be a pretty mild dose consistent with mild
| analgesia and well bellow the recreation and dissociative
| doses based on all the charts I just pulled up, but I'm not
| personally experienced with K ;)
| ketamine wrote:
| How often do you need maintenance?
|
| How numb does it make you. My mouth and throat being numb
| was very surprising.
| chimeracoder wrote:
| > I'm sorry but you are strongly over exaggerating the (side)
| effects of i.v. ketamine. It's not a dose that sends you in a
| K hole. It's way less than that.
|
| 0.5 mg/kg intravenous. For frame of reference, a small
| recreational dose is between 5-25 mg (insufflated[0]), and a
| larger recreational dose (for people targeting a "k-hole") is
| more like 50-100mg. For clinical depression (ie, not this
| study, but for a similar purpose), the fixed dose is 84mg
| (not weight-based).
|
| So assuming a 75kg individual, that would be a 37.5mg
| intravenous dose, which is definitely going to provide a
| noticeable effect for any ketamine-naive user (ie, someone
| who does not already have a tolerance for the drug from
| recent prior use).
|
| > The problem with ketamine and suicidality studies is that
| suicides - thankfully don't happen very often - so we have no
| direct evidence that ketamine prevents suicides.
|
| That's not really a problem - suicidal ideation is a strong
| enough predictor for suicidality and mental health that it's
| common to use as a biomarker. In other words, nearly anything
| that reduces suicidal ideation is presumed to reduce
| suicidality (on a large scale) - it's not necessary to wait
| months or years to see what happens (and in fact, depending
| on the specifics of the study, it can be considered unethical
| to do so).
|
| Source: former clinical researcher and drug counselor
|
| [0] bioavailability when insufflated is significantly less
| than other means of ingestion
| hadmatter wrote:
| I agree about you second point. I was too quick to make my
| comment and I was conflating stuff I've read about nasal
| esketamine, which didn't have as robust evidence behind it
| as i.v. ketamine. I should not write comments while holding
| a baby that is trying to sleep and failing at it.
|
| About the first point, I still disagree with the parent
| comment. The standard 0,5mg/kg ketamine is given under 40
| minutes. I've seen two patients receive it. The room was
| dimly lit, silent and peaceful, as to not induce or
| exacerbate any possible dissociative or hallucinative side
| effects. The patients didn't report any side effects at
| first and later reported a little sedation. I wouldn't be a
| able to tell with certainty if they had received a placebo
| or ketamine, and certainly not within minutes.
|
| Source: psychiatrist in training
|
| Edit: I still think we need hard data about anti-suicide
| effect and not just surrogate markers. Variability in
| suicidal ideation is suggested to be a predictor of suicide
| attempts [1]. If ketamine first gets someone better and
| later on they relapse, they could, in theory, be at
| increased risk for suicide. More long term data is also
| needed about it's long term effects. Note that I do think
| it's a good thing that ketamine is becoming more available!
| I will continue to suggest it for e.g. patients with
| treatment resistant and severe depression.
|
| [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S
| 01650...
| ketamine wrote:
| Source: patient taking infusions.
|
| .5 mg/kg
|
| I was numb all over, my lips tongue and throat were numb.
|
| I melted in to the chair and felt like I was up down and
| sideways at the same time.
|
| You would not be able to tell immediately but I put on my
| blindfold within 7 minutes due to effects starting.
| hadmatter wrote:
| Thanks, I appreciate your comment and experience. I agree
| that if one was to get those effects, one would be quite
| unlikely to suspect placebo. I hope you got the help you
| needed from ketamine.
| Forbo wrote:
| I've had to vouch for four of your comments now. Looks
| like you account was shadow banned. Maybe contact @dang
| to see if they'll fix it?
| VyperCard wrote:
| I get the used dosage every three month and I can assure you,
| it is very noticeable.
|
| However, I have no idea how other sedations feel, so who
| knows if they are a good placebo. Could be.
| after_care wrote:
| I don't think I am exaggerating the noticeable effects of
| i.v. ketamine. Patients given i.v. ketamine are advised not
| to operating an automobile hours after administration. This
| level of impairment would be noticeable to the patient and
| the staff administering the treatment.
| hadmatter wrote:
| Advice not to operate an automobile is for minimizing
| risks. It doesn't mean that most would be unable to handle
| a car, although it could mean that their reaction times
| would be slower. The standard way to administer ketamine is
| to give 0,5 mg/kg under 40 minutes. It would in no way be
| immediately obvious to everyone in, if someone began to
| receive ketamine or not. At least I couldn't differentiate
| them at that point.
| after_care wrote:
| Maybe you have more experience with patients at this
| specific dose range than I do. I remain skeptical this
| could be double blind, but do have less certainty than I
| originally started with.
| encoderer wrote:
| Have you had it?
|
| A friend of mine did it last week and he described it as the
| most intense experience of his life. He's 40 and he has
| experience with other drugs.
|
| I think possibly you don't know what you're talking about?
| stimpson_j_cat wrote:
| Right it varies greatly depending on dose. If you don't
| know the exact dose your friend took (they don't sound like
| an anesthesiologist) then you're insulting someone you
| likely know much less than.
| ketamine wrote:
| Clinics in the US seem to all use .5 mg/kg as a baseline
| Forbo wrote:
| I vouched for your comment since it is relevant. I assume
| it was dead because you're new.
| ketamine wrote:
| Email sent. Thank you, stranger :)
| skissane wrote:
| You generally can't compare recreational and prescribed
| drug use, even for the same substance, because the doses
| tend to be widely different.
|
| A lot of people take amphetamines as a medically prescribed
| treatment for ADHD (and other conditions such as narcolepsy
| too). A lot of people take amphetamines recreationally.
| Studies done on the negative heath consequences for
| recreational users are largely irrelevant to medically
| prescribed users, because your average recreational dose is
| an order of magnitude (or more) higher than the average
| prescribed dose. Increase the dose ten-told, it acts like a
| different drug altogether.
|
| Plus, the irregular dosing schedule of recreational users
| probably isn't helping either. And many recreational users
| try to get the drug into their bloodstream as fast as
| possible (injection, snorting, smoking), while most
| prescription drugs aim to be released more gradually (oral
| route, sometimes even extended release or an inactive
| prodrug such as Vyvanse/lisdexamfetamine)
| chimeracoder wrote:
| > Studies done on the negative heath consequences for
| recreational users are largely irrelevant to medically
| prescribed users, because your average recreational dose
| is an order of magnitude (or more) higher than the
| average prescribed dose. Increase the dose ten-told, it
| acts like a different drug altogether.
|
| What you're saying applies in other cases, but in the
| case of ketamine, the recreational dose is one or two
| orders of magnitude _lower_ than the clinical dose.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| The person you're replying to, from my interpretation, is
| saying that their friend had a ketamine infusion at a
| clinic. Nowhere do they mention recreational use
| prophesi wrote:
| You can look at the study yourself to see what dosage was
| administered, then compare that to user-reported
| experiences on erowid if you're curious. And the study
| itself lists out the side effects they experienced.
| adwi wrote:
| I think possibly commercial "infusion clinics" and medical
| trials use different doses.
| officeplant wrote:
| Going by a friends experience, infusion clinics need to
| be investigated more regularly by medical professionals.
| Co-worker went to one for treatment and from her
| recollection of the event they left her in a dark room
| with a white noise generator while she went down the
| k-hole. Terrified the living shit out of her.
| hadmatter wrote:
| That's awful. I've also read about shady clinics in the
| US that don't really screen their patients but just give
| the drug to anyone who pays. E.g.
| https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-
| ketamine-b...
| bradly wrote:
| IM and IV are going to be very similar. Smaller
| independent psychologist will do IM while bigger clinics
| with nursing staff will typically use IV.
|
| At home treatments with sublingual trockies have much
| less side affects, but differently still noticeable.
| Nasal spray is the weakest with just some minor body
| numbing.
| ketamine wrote:
| Same dose for me. .5 mg/kg
|
| It was more intense and less intense at the same time
| because I did not know what to expect.
| bradly wrote:
| Inter muscular ketamine treatments were the only thing that
| helped my severe treatment resistant depression that included
| suicidal thoughts. They definitely had strong side affects.
| Complete disconnection, loss of the concept of humanism, I've
| gone inside a rainbow, held hands with my brain, etc..
| AdamH12113 wrote:
| My psychiatrist administers IV ketamine treatments for
| depression. (I don't use those; regular antidepressants work
| for me.) I'm not sure what dosage she uses, but from what she's
| told me, it's not a drug trip, and a lot of people don't feel
| any different during the treatment.
|
| [Edited to clarify.]
| sandworm101 wrote:
| You might be in her placebo group.
| AdamH12113 wrote:
| Sorry, poor wording. I meant that my psychiatrist runs a
| ketamine clinic and administers IV ketamine treatments to
| patients.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| The person is saying their doctor administers this
| treatment to other people, but not to them. And that the
| doctor has said the patients receiving the treatment do not
| experience a drug trip.
| aaaaaaaaata wrote:
| I read it as their doctor receiving the treatment, not
| them.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| "she uses" is an odd phrase for a patient. Patients
| normally "receive" or "are given". Drug addicts and
| doctors "use" a drug.
| [deleted]
| chimeracoder wrote:
| > My psychiatrist does IV ketamine treatments for depression.
| I'm not sure what dosage she uses, but from what she's told
| me, it's not a drug trip, and a lot of people don't feel any
| different during the treatment.
|
| At 0.5mg/kg intravenous, there's no way that people wouldn't
| feel anything. It's not necessarily a "drug trip", but pretty
| much anybody can tell the difference between that large of a
| dose of ketamine vs. a saline solution.
|
| For trials in cases like this, it's common to use a group
| which receives either a smaller dose of the drug or a drug
| that is intended to mimic some of the subjectively observable
| side effects.
| ketamine wrote:
| That is the dose I receive and it is very noticeable.
|
| I do not know what a trip is or is not supposed to be like
| but it was a very wild sensation.
| bradly wrote:
| Does is dependent on weight (and gender?) if I remember
| correctly.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| >1.The nurse administering knew if it was placebo or active
| (for safety reasons).
|
| I read it as the nurse preparing the IV's knew if it was a
| placebo, it doesn't really say that the same nurse administered
| the IV's.
| btach wrote:
| The nurse administering it is most certainly liable for what
| s/he administers. It is a very big no-no to blindly
| administer a medication of which you cannot reasonably verify
| what it is. To push a syringe or start a pump of something
| that "could be ketamine, or could be NS" is walking an
| uncomfortable line for your license to practice nursing.
| Right patient, right medication, right dose, right route,
| right time. If you as a nurse cannot attest to all of the
| above when you push something, it is in error to push it.
| throwaway81523 wrote:
| How does it work in other clinical trials where you take a
| pill instead of getting an injection? Those are double
| blind all the time. They watch you take the pill, but they
| don't know whether it is active or placebo.
|
| For that matter, a quick web search shows that at least
| some of the (injected) coronavirus vaccine trials were
| double blind. Seems like enough for someone in the next
| room to know if the maybe-ketamine injection is placebo, so
| they can unblind immediately in case of a bad reaction.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| >Right patient, right medication, right dose, right route,
| right time
|
| Can't you achieve all of those by having someone else
| create the bag and then label it for the patient. The
| "right medication" is the one they're receiving as part of
| the study.
|
| It's not like what they need to do is different if it's
| ketamine or saline.
| mabbo wrote:
| > The primary outcome was the rate of patients in full suicidal
| remission at day 3, according to the scale for suicidal ideation
| total score <=3. Analyses were conducted on an intention-to-treat
| basis.
|
| Question: does reducing suicidal ideation reduce suicide? I mean,
| it sounds like it obviously should, but we've been wrong about
| this before. Many heart medications to reduce cholesterol worked
| great at reducing cholesterol without reducing heart disease!
|
| All that said, reducing suicidal ideation is a worthy goal
| itself, even if it doesn't reduce suicide. I'm a full supporter
| of seeing this treatment move more mainstream.
| aarontait wrote:
| FYI: Johnson & Johnson patented the S(+) enantiomer of ketamine
| and sells it as a nasal spray called Spavato. It's been FDA
| approved for depression since 2019. Although Spravato costs more
| on paper than regular ketamine, it's often less expensive for
| patients since it is covered by insurance (regular ketamine
| treatments are considered an off-label use and are usually not
| covered).
| archhn wrote:
| Christianity without tears?
| sshine wrote:
| This suggests that ketamine is beneficial for people who are
| suicidal to prevent them from killing themselves. The claim that
| is generally made about ketamine and depression is that it can
| have a short-term resetting effect of someone's depressive
| symptoms (not necessarily at a suicidal level), making it
| possible to escape the black hole that otherwise can take weeks,
| months, years to come out of.
|
| https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/how-ket...
| kuhewa wrote:
| For bipolar or other disorders, not much of a discernible
| effect for depressives
| datavirtue wrote:
| Doctor prescribed anti-inflammatory for a pinched nerve I
| have...cured mine.
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| Some vets use Ketamine as part of a multi stage protocol for
| euthanising animals, other vets just use a single drug protocol
| but I havent established what that drug is, but it just seems all
| a bit refined butchery to me!
|
| Ketamine is supposed to be a disassociate drug, which I'm
| guessing is perhaps like an out of body experience or something.
| But I cant see how that can help with depression when people dont
| understand depression can actually be lots of things, but it has
| one overriding common element which is people remembering.
|
| So unless people get something like dementia where recent
| memories seem to fade first and the earliest memories come back,
| I fail to see how K can help treat depression.
|
| As for suicide ideation, well look around at what constitutes 1st
| world medical care! If you dont buy into the smiley faces because
| you might have grown up around medical professionals and heard
| the back office chats you might think twice about the
| authenticity of so called medical professionals! Not only that,
| its just a job for most, leave it at the door when your shift
| finishes, which is easier said than done especially if a dying
| patient seemed nice and innocent compared to an unpleasant angry
| dying patient.
|
| I really dont know why we dont have legal euthanasia because
| being experimented on in the name of science is not something I'd
| let others do to me if I can help it, I am aware that some argue
| it would be a direction towards eugenics, but that goes on
| already in stealth with some medical procedures.
| amelius wrote:
| Isn't morphine overdose the best (friendliest) possible
| euthanizing method?
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| Morphine/Heroin is supposed to physically cause respiratory
| depression so you stop breathing and I guess the CO2 builds
| up past the 30% blood saturation point by which stage it
| takes about 2 mins for the body to shut down. As the CO2
| levels reach that 30% blood saturation point, the body
| becomes increasingly stimulated which is why you see people
| thrashing around when drowning or asphyxiating. Having done
| sea rescue to stop someone drowning in rough sea's, you can
| say goodbye to all the training water rescue people get
| taught and just hope the panicking person isnt as strong as
| you and hope your lungs are better than theirs, because they
| will force you under and you will ingest lots of water so you
| have CO2 build up which spurs you on to shore ironically.
|
| Obviously (going off things like trainspotting and peoples
| accounts), opiates are supposed to give you a warm fuzzy
| feeling as you slip into a deep sleep or unconsciousness I
| guess but not to sure, never done it not even in an operating
| theatre.
|
| MAOI's the old style anti depressants are quite sudden in
| that they are like an on off switch for the brain, you dont
| remember or feel nothing and I think they were popular with
| people who wanted to end it, but SSRI's have replaced them as
| the new anti depressant treatment but their problem is you
| dont sleep properly on them so they introduce their own
| problems, but I'm not aware of any end of life properties in
| SSRI's other than they ruin your sleep and send you off the
| rails slowly.
|
| But all the while, these chemicals still dont address the
| fundamental problem with depression which is remembering
| stuff that causes depression. Maybe depression should be
| treated more like PTSD, because depression seems to be an ego
| thing, where as talking to other people, PTSD seems to be
| more like what people associate as depression.
|
| For bloke's I think the bio mechanical properties of
| testosterone would help many with PTSD, cant comment for
| women though, but the risk the police and medical lot dont
| want is some hulk losing it so the idea isnt entertained
| AFAIK.
|
| Self preservation of institutions comes before everything
| else!
|
| Edit: I should add, once CO2 blood saturation exceeds 30% it
| has a noble gas effect on the body, so anyone who remembers
| the periodic table should remember what noble gasses are and
| its why compressed gas companies go to great lengths to not
| enable pure noble gases getting into the hands of the public.
|
| Biology and chemistry is just the mammalian equivalent of
| computer hacking.
| [deleted]
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