[HN Gopher] Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Oxide at Home: Propolis Says Hello
        
       Author : xena
       Score  : 187 points
       Date   : 2022-03-14 12:11 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (artemis.sh)
 (TXT) w3m dump (artemis.sh)
        
       | nwilkens wrote:
       | I am very excited about what Oxide is doing, including how the
       | work is being open sourced, and upstreamed.
       | 
       | I also love that they continued to bet on Illumos and am looking
       | forward to the continued growth and development in the Illumos
       | space.
        
       | asdfljk3ljk wrote:
        
       | gennarro wrote:
       | Unrelated: But anyone remember xoxide.com? The computer building
       | site from the early 2000s? One of my favorite sites of all time.
        
       | dcre wrote:
       | Oxide is hiring in the following areas: electrical engineering,
       | security, embedded, control plane + API, internal systems
       | automation, dev tools, and product design. (I work there.)
       | 
       | https://oxide.computer/careers
        
         | dls2016 wrote:
         | Curious... if I'm still in the "triage" bucket after 6 weeks
         | should I assume the ship has sailed? I was _really_ hoping to
         | hear back one way or the other!
        
           | dcre wrote:
           | No, you will hear back. We're trying really hard to keep to
           | the 6 weeks thing but sometimes we don't succeed.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | 0des wrote:
             | Please get back to them today, this is a prompt or cue to
             | rescue this one from falling through the cracks. You never
             | know...
        
             | robocat wrote:
             | I would think that startups would want to bias for people
             | that can make good decisions quickly, within a short
             | decision time. Perhaps hardware startups want more
             | conservative employees?
             | 
             | Also in my experience, a fabulous candidate is sometimes
             | only available for a very short time window (they either
             | have become available due to unforeseen circumstances, or
             | they are snapped up by a faster mover).
             | 
             | Is six weeks fast in your opinion?
        
       | rcarmo wrote:
       | Kudos. I've been looking at that stuff but have lacked the
       | bandwidth to even think about getting it to run (wish I could,
       | really).
        
       | psanford wrote:
       | I've not looked at Illumos distros seriously in a long time, but
       | the reason given for rejecting OmniOS seems really strange to me.
       | My general impression was that OmniOS was a tight, server
       | oriented distro that had a sane release schedule and up to date
       | security patches. Who cares if they use the word "enterprise" in
       | their marketing copy?
        
       | asdfljk3ljk wrote:
        
       | nickdothutton wrote:
       | There is still a place for fully integrated and engineered
       | systems. If you have the need for high levels of concurrency,
       | performance, availability, and need to know... not guess... what
       | your opex is going to look like. I'm a user and supporter of
       | cloud providers, but there are some fat, fat margins being booked
       | there. Not every company can have a storage team, network team,
       | and compute team to integrate those things properly.
       | 
       | 0xide is one of the few really interesting new tech companies out
       | there.
       | 
       | I have to admit some bias, as I was involved with a company
       | offering a "poor mans vBlock" around 2010. We didn't grow fast
       | large but we never once lost a deal against commodity hardware
       | vendors. They were easy to beat.
        
       | BluSyn wrote:
       | Is it weird that I'm insanely excited about Oxide as a product,
       | even though I have absolutely no need or use case for it?
        
         | mxuribe wrote:
         | Same here!
        
         | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
         | Not at all; they're building a cool tech stack, but the only
         | thing they sell is super expensive hardware that no individual
         | - and not even that many businesses! - is likely to be able to
         | afford.
        
           | bcantrill wrote:
           | So, the only thing really inherent about our price point is
           | that we're selling compute by the rack: as it turns out, a
           | whole rack of server-class CPUs (and its accompanying DRAM,
           | flash, NICs, and switching ASICs) is pretty expensive! But
           | this doesn't mean that it's a luxury good: especially because
           | customers won't need to buy software separately (as one does
           | now for hypervisor, control plane, storage software, etc.),
           | the Oxide rack will be very much cost competitive with extant
           | enterprise solutions.
           | 
           | Cost competitive as it may be, it doesn't mean that it hits
           | the price point for a home lab, sadly. One of the (many)
           | advantages of an open source stack is allowing people to do
           | these kinds of experiments on their own; looking forward to
           | getting our schematics out there too!
        
             | eaasen wrote:
             | It also turns out that not many people have 3-phase power
             | and can support a heat/power load of 15kW in their homes ;)
        
               | semi-extrinsic wrote:
               | I actually suspect it would be a lot easier to support
               | 15kW of power in my home than 15 kW of cooling.
               | 
               | I know several people with 2x 240V 32A 3-phase in their
               | garage, that's 20+ kW at any reasonable power factor. But
               | a 15 kW cooler that would work in summer would annoy the
               | hell out of any neighbours living closer than a mile.
        
               | 0des wrote:
               | Simple solution: Turn those neighbours into shareholders
               | and they can sleep to the sound of money all summer long
               | :)
        
             | mwcampbell wrote:
             | Where does this leave companies that would like to take
             | advantage of fully integrated software and hardware (yes,
             | intentionally referring to your old project at Sun), but
             | don't need a full rack's worth of computing power (and
             | maybe never will), and don't have the in-house skills to
             | roll their own? Or do you think that what you're selling
             | really only has significant benefits at a large scale?
        
               | dijit wrote:
               | I think the intention is that those people are better
               | served with consolidated cloud providers? -- or even
               | single digits of physical colocated servers.
               | 
               | It would be nice to have a known pricepoint from a cloud
               | provider which once exceed you ask the question: "Should
               | we buy a rack and COLO it?" Even if the answer is "no"
               | it's still good to have that option.
               | 
               | ---
               | 
               | The thing is: Datacenter technology has moved on from
               | 2011 (when I was getting into Datacenters), but only for
               | the big companies. (Google, Facebook, Netflix); I think
               | Oxide is bringing the benefits of a "hyperscale"
               | deployment to "normal" (IE; single/double-digit rack)
               | customers.
               | 
               | Some of those things such as much more efficient DC
               | converters, so not every machine needs to do it's own
               | AC/DC conversion.
        
               | mwcampbell wrote:
               | What's kind of messed up, at least for tiny companies
               | like mine, is that renting an ugly PC-based dedicated
               | server from a company like OVH is currently cheaper than
               | paying for the equivalent computing power (edit: and
               | outgoing data transfer) from a hyperscale cloud provider
               | like AWS, even though the hyperscalers are probably using
               | both space and power more efficiently than the likes of
               | OVH. My cofounder will definitely not get on board with
               | paying more to get the same (or less) computing power,
               | just for the knowledge that we're (probably) using less
               | energy. I don't know what the answer is; maybe we need
               | some kind of regulation to make sure that the
               | externalities of running a mostly idle box are properly
               | factored into what we pay?
        
               | dijit wrote:
               | You're amortising a lot of software developers and
               | sysadmins with your AWS bill. It's also in-trend so a bit
               | premium.
               | 
               | They're not reasonably equivalent. But I don't doubt that
               | Amazon is laughing to the bank still.
        
               | zozbot234 wrote:
               | > renting an ugly PC-based dedicated server from a
               | company like OVH is currently cheaper than renting the
               | equivalent computing power from a hyperscale cloud
               | provider like AWS
               | 
               | That's not surprising, you're basically paying for
               | scalability. An idle box doesn't even necessarily "waste"
               | all that much energy if it's truly idle, since "deep"
               | power-saving states are used pretty much everywhere these
               | days.
        
               | mwcampbell wrote:
               | Sure, the CPU may enter a power-saving state, but
               | presumably for each box, there's a minimum level of power
               | consumption for things like the motherboard, BMC, RAM,
               | and case fan(s). The reason why AWS bare-metal instances
               | are absurdly expensive compared to OVH dedicated servers
               | is that AWS packs more computing power into each box. So
               | for each core and gigabyte of RAM, I would guess AWS is
               | using less power (edit: especially when idle), because
               | they don't have the overhead of lots of small boxes. Yet
               | I can have one of those small boxes to myself for less
               | than I'd have to pay for the equivalent computing power
               | and bandwidth from AWS.
        
               | zozbot234 wrote:
               | Interestingly, I believe that unused DIMM modules _could_
               | be powered down if the hardware bothered to support that.
               | Linux has to support memory hotplug anyway because it 's
               | long been in use on mainframe platforms, so the basic OS-
               | level support is there already. Since it's not being
               | addressed in any way by hardware makers, my guess is that
               | RAM power use in idle states is low enough that it
               | basically doesn't matter.
        
         | jjav wrote:
         | I'm a huge fanboy of Oxide, hope they succeed, the world needs
         | more of this.
         | 
         | I'm very sad about what Silicon Valley has become. We speak of
         | "tech companies" but they mostly no longer exist. What are the
         | big names in Silicon Valley now? Advertising companies, for the
         | most part. A movie company. Online shopping. Social whatevers.
         | None of these companies sell tech products, they are not tech
         | companies. Sure, they use tech internally but so do law offices
         | and supermarkets, those aren't tech companies either.
         | 
         | I miss the Silicon Valley of actual tech companies. Sun, SGI,
         | HP (the actual tech HP of back then), etc. Apple survives, but
         | focused on consumer-level stuff which I don't find interesting.
         | Oracle is around, but they were always more of a lawyer shop
         | than a tech company. Real hardcode tech companies, do any exist
         | anymore?
         | 
         | Oxide is such fresh air, exciting!
         | 
         | Every week or so I'm about to send an application, I really
         | want to work there. My partner would kill me though, so I
         | haven't. (They have a flat pay scale that, when living in
         | Silicon Valley, would make it very difficult to support a
         | family.. so I'm stuck cheering from the sidelines.)
        
         | EvanAnderson wrote:
         | I'm enthusiastic about their products and the company in
         | general, too. I don't often feel like I'd like to be an
         | employee, but Oxide sounds like it would a very exciting gig
         | (but I lack any skill set to remotely justify even contacting
         | them-- I don't think they're looking for heavily opinionated
         | Windows / Linux sysadmins >smile<).
         | 
         | Their gear is targeted at way larger-scale than I'll ever get
         | to use (what with the size of environments I work in). What I
         | hear about their attitudes re: firmware, for example, makes me
         | wish that I could have their gear instead of the iDRAC's,
         | PERCs, and other closed-source roach-motel hardware I'm stuck
         | with.
         | 
         | I'm young enough that I just missed the era of computers that
         | Oxide evokes. I put in a couple DEC Alpha-based machines in the
         | late 90s and got a glimpse of what it might be like to have a
         | vendor who provides a completely integrated hardware/software
         | stack and "ecosystem". I'm sure there was operational advantage
         | to being a "DEC shop" or a "Sun shop". The PC market crushed
         | that old school model by wringing out the margin necessary to
         | make that kind of company work. I'd love to see Oxide make a go
         | of it, though.
        
         | bityard wrote:
         | Nope, it's proof that their marketing team is doing a great
         | job.
        
           | bcantrill wrote:
           | Especially because there isn't one!
        
             | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
             | Well, on paper:) You, personally, are an amazing marketing
             | department no matter what your official title is; "The Soul
             | of a New Machine", for instance, is brilliant at getting
             | mindshare. To be fair, I'm fairly sure you don't think of
             | what you're doing as marketing, but the only difference I
             | see is that this is much more natural/sincere than 99.99%
             | of similar efforts - you're actually just that passionate
             | and good at sharing your passion.
        
               | bcantrill wrote:
               | Ha, entirely fair! When we raised our initial round, we
               | said that our podcasting microphones were the marketing
               | department, which proved prophetic.
        
               | skadamat wrote:
               | This is low key the Developer Relations playbook! I heard
               | about Oxide thru the awesome On the Metal podcast y'all
               | started :]
        
         | caslon wrote:
         | They're a tech company that makes actual technology. You're
         | allowed to be excited. Better technology upstream has a habit
         | of floating down the stack in some form or another, even when
         | lawyers make it hard (ZFS was released under a GPL-incompatible
         | license (some people will argue intentionally), yet has
         | influenced over twenty years of filesystem design in the Linux
         | ecosystem for things like btrfs, coincidentally also owned from
         | an IP standpoint largely by Oracle, for example).
         | 
         | Who knows? In twenty years, we could see something cool come
         | out of this, like better U-Boot tooling. Or maybe they'll be
         | purchased by Oracle, which would if nothing else be funny this
         | time.
        
           | TimTheTinker wrote:
           | > Or maybe they'll be purchased by Oracle, which would if
           | nothing else be funny this time.
           | 
           | Oracle will likely be _very_ interested in Oxide, but I
           | suspect Bryan Cantrill would do everything in his power to
           | prevent that happening. He 's seen the lawn mower in action
           | before and knows not to anthropomorphize it :)
        
           | EvanAnderson wrote:
           | That is the really cool thing about them-- they're actually
           | _making new computers_ and the software and firmware to go
           | with them.
           | 
           | Everything else "new" seems to be a rehash of the IBM PC (my
           | "server" has an ISA-- ahem-- "LPC" bus... >sigh<). It's so
           | refreshing to see something actually new.
           | 
           | The same goes with software and firmware. Any "new" systems
           | software the last 10 years seems to be thin management
           | veneers over real technologies like the Linux kernel, KVM and
           | containers, GNU userland, etc. And it all ends up running on
           | the same cruddy BMC's, "lights-out" controllers, embedded
           | RAID controllers, etc.
           | 
           | I get a little bit of excitement at ARM-based server
           | platforms (and RISC-V, for that matter) but everything there
           | seems to be at even less of an "enterprise" level (from a
           | reliability, serviceability, and management perspective) than
           | the PC-based servers I already loathe.
        
             | zozbot234 wrote:
             | KVM and containerization are not just "thin management
             | veneers", they enable all sorts of new features.
        
               | EvanAnderson wrote:
               | I'm sorry I wasn't clear. KVM and containers are the
               | technology. The "new" stuff I'm talking about are thin
               | management veneers over these features.
        
               | zozbot234 wrote:
               | Strictly speaking, kernel-level namespaces are the
               | technology. "Containers" are a pattern based on kernel-
               | level namespaces, and "thin management veneers" help make
               | sense of the underlying technology and implement that
               | pattern.
        
       | rob74 wrote:
       | Only tangentially related: what I find strange about "Oxide"
       | (styled as "0xide" - the first character is a zero) is that they
       | got very close to actually having a valid hex number in
       | C/C++/Rust notation (0x1de) as a logo, but stopped short...
        
         | tonoto wrote:
         | It still amazes me that Oxide actually managed to grab the
         | perfect PCI vendor ID
         | 
         | https://pcisig.com/membership/member-companies?combine=01de
        
           | monocasa wrote:
           | That's fantastic. And here I thought that Intel's vendor ID
           | of 0x8086 was cute.
        
         | kaoladataveez wrote:
         | yes it's crazy!
        
       | BaconPackets wrote:
       | I'm currently reading up on this, but I'm struggling to match a
       | use case.
       | 
       | It's not Openstack. It's not VMware. It's not kubernetes. It's
       | not proxmox. It's not Xen. It's not Anthos. It's not GCDE. It's
       | not Outposts.
       | 
       | So who and what is it for? Where is the use case that none of
       | these other products fit the bill?
       | 
       | Especially for an on premise use case.
        
         | steveklabnik wrote:
         | This article is about technical details of the product that
         | aren't user-facing.
         | 
         | The business is fairly straightforward: we sell computers, a
         | rack at a time. You as a customer can buy a rack, and put it in
         | your data center. The rack offers an in-browser management
         | console, built on top of an API you can use too. You use these
         | tools to set up virtual machines. You can then use those VMs
         | however you want. You get the cloud deployment model but with
         | the "I buy the servers" ownership model.
         | 
         | There's a few different advantages depending on how you want to
         | look at it.
         | 
         | Starting from a rack as the smallest unit rather than 1U brings
         | a lot of advantages, but there aren't really vendors currently
         | selling these sorts of things, instead "the hyperscalers" have
         | internal teams building stuff like this. There are a lot of
         | organizations who want hyperscale style servers but aren't
         | going to start a division to begin making them themselves.
         | 
         | Another advantage is that everything is designed to work with
         | the rest of it: you (or the OEM you're buying from) are not
         | cobbling together a bunch of hardware, firmware, and software
         | solutions from disparate vendors and hoping the whole thing
         | works. Think "Apple," or "Sun," rather than "IBM PC
         | Compatible." This is easier for users, as well as allows us to
         | build systems we believe are more reliable.
         | 
         | There's also smaller things, like "as much as possible
         | everything is open source/free software," which matters to some
         | folks (and allows for interesting things like the above blog
         | post to happen!) and is less important to others.
        
           | BaconPackets wrote:
           | Thanks! That gives me a bit more context.
        
             | steveklabnik wrote:
             | You're welcome! Sorry you're being downvoted, no idea
             | what's up with that, it's a reasonable question. Sometimes
             | our stuff can seem opaque, but that's because we're mostly
             | focused on shipping right now, rather than marketing.
             | Always happy to talk about stuff, though.
        
               | BaconPackets wrote:
               | :shrug: That's fine, I would always rather have a
               | conversation. Thanks for your time!
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | proxysna wrote:
       | Glad to see oxide on HN. Sick stack.
        
       | stock_toaster wrote:
       | I use vm-bhyve on FreeBSD current. The little bit of propolis
       | described in the post reminds me of it a bit, but in rust (with a
       | service/api interface) instead of just cli and shell. Sounds
       | neat!
       | 
       | I wonder how hard it would be to port to FreeBSD.
        
         | ArchOversight wrote:
         | There's some changes they have made to bhyve that would need to
         | get ported to FreeBSD first.
        
       | cmdrk wrote:
       | I get that Oxide has a lot of ex-Joyent folks, but I can't help
       | but wonder how much the choice of a Solaris-derived OS will
       | hobble adoption, support for devices, etc. In many ways this
       | feels like SmartOS all over again - a killer concept that will be
       | eclipsed by a technically inferior but more tractable (for
       | contributors, for management) solution.
        
         | wmf wrote:
         | If the Oxide stack is good someone could make a name for
         | themselves by porting it to Linux to get wider hardware
         | support.
        
           | zozbot234 wrote:
           | It might make even more sense to run a cutting-edge
           | distributed OS on the actual Oxide hardware. With rack-scale
           | platforms like this it could be feasible to do SSI with
           | distributed memory across multiple "nodes". Current "cloud"
           | platforms like Kubernetes are already planning on including
           | support for automated checkpointing and migration, which is
           | sort of the first step prior to going fully SSI.
        
             | bitbckt wrote:
             | I miss IRIX, too. :)
        
           | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
           | Depends how deeply integrated it is; if nothing else, I
           | suspect that bhyve and kvm have sufficiently different APIs
           | that it would be at least quite annoying to paper over the
           | differences.
        
         | porker wrote:
         | As someone who got massively excited by SmartOS, only to see
         | adoption never reach even the minimal levels I hoped for - yes,
         | I hear you.
         | 
         | What would the hosting story look like now if 8(?) years ago
         | 25% of servers had adopted SmartOS?
        
           | EvanAnderson wrote:
           | I got massively excited by SmartOS, too. Coming from a
           | vSphere and Hyper-V world I found it to be a joy to use. The
           | way that Illumos zones leverage ZFS is really, really cool.
           | The tooling in SmartOS was very nice to use, too.
           | 
           | I never used it in production anywhere, admittedly. I also
           | never got a chance to try out Triton. I'm on the fence about
           | whether or not I keep my SmartOS hosts in my home network now
           | that Illumos is a second-class citizen when it comes to
           | OpenZFS.
        
             | NexRebular wrote:
             | We run Triton and individual SmartOS boxes in production.
             | They have pretty much replaced all of our VMWare and linux-
             | based hypervisors save some very specific use cases, mostly
             | relating to GPU passthrough and NVIDIA.
             | 
             | The case with OpenZFS does worry me as well. I fear the
             | developers start slowly introducing linuxisms thus
             | sacrificing portability and stability for the great
             | penguin.
        
         | anaisbetts wrote:
         | I thought this too, but if the goal of the control plane
         | software and blade host OS is solely to create VMs and not to
         | actually be a general-purpose OS, this probably doesn't matter
         | as much?
        
           | mise_en_place wrote:
           | Idk, KVM/libvirt/qemu has worked fine for me. It is very
           | lightweight compared to say VMWare. If I don't want VMs I
           | could use Docker/containerd.
           | 
           | What problem does Oxide solve exactly?
        
             | rfoo wrote:
             | Sell you a few racks of servers, ready to use out of the
             | box, I guess?
        
         | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
         | > but I can't help but wonder how much the choice of a Solaris-
         | derived OS will hobble adoption, support for devices, etc.
         | 
         | Does it matter? Oxide is building the whole stack - their own
         | hardware with their own firmware to run their own OS with their
         | own virtualization layer. They don't _need_ support for
         | arbitrary devices, because they control the hardware.
        
           | qbasic_forever wrote:
           | I really worry about a startup taking a massive bet on their
           | own custom hardware now in 2022. The world was much, much
           | different in December 2019 when Oxide started than it is now.
           | Let's hope the investment cash keeps flowing and the hardware
           | gets to folks that purchased it.
        
             | bsder wrote:
             | Right now is, in fact, the _best_ time to be betting on
             | custom hardware.
             | 
             | Moore's Law has been dead for a while. Getting
             | "performance" now requires design and architecture again
             | rather than just sitting back for 18 months and letting
             | Moore's Law kill your competitor.
             | 
             | The big problem right now is that custom _chip_ hardware is
             | still too stupidly expensive because of EDA software. Fab
             | runs are sub $50K, but EDA software is greater than 100K
             | per seat and goes up rapidly from that.
        
               | zozbot234 wrote:
               | Do you really need proprietary EDA tools to get started
               | on designing custom chips? Higher-level design languages
               | like Chisel are showing a lot of potential right now,
               | with full CPU cores being designed entirely in such
               | languages. Of course EDA will be needed once the high-
               | level design has to be ported to any specific hardware-
               | fabbing process, but that step should still be relatively
               | simple since most potential defects in the high-level
               | design will have been shaken out by then.
        
               | bsder wrote:
               | > Do you really need proprietary EDA tools to get started
               | on designing custom chips?
               | 
               | Yes, actually, you do.
               | 
               | The "interesting" bits in chip design aren't the digital
               | parts--the interesting bits are all analog.
               | 
               | A RISC core is an undergraduate exercise in digital
               | design and synthesis in any HDL--even just straight
               | Verilog or VHDL. It's a boring exercise for anyone with a
               | bit of industry experience as we have infinite and cheap
               | digital transistors. (This is part of the reason I regard
               | RISC-V as a bit interesting but not that exciting. It's
               | fine, but the "RISC" part isn't where we needed
               | innovation and standardization--we needed that in the
               | _peripherals_.)
               | 
               | However, the interfaces are where things break down. Most
               | communication is now wireless (WiFi, BLE, NB-IoT) and
               | that's all RF (radio frequency) analog. Interfacing
               | generally requires analog to digital systems (ADCs and
               | DACs) and those are, obviously, analog. Even high-speed
               | serial stuff requires signal integrity and termination
               | systems--all of that requires parasitic extraction for
               | modeling--yet more analog. And MEMS are even worse as
               | they require _mechanical_ modeling inside your analog
               | simulation.
               | 
               | If your system needs to run on a coin cell battery,
               | that's _genuinely_ low power and you are optimizing even
               | the digital bits in the analog domain in order to cut
               | your energy consumption. This means that nominally
               | "digital" blocks like clocks and clock trees now become
               | tradeoffs in the analog space. How does your debugging
               | unit work when the chip is in sleep?--most vendors just
               | punt and turn the chip completely on when debugging but
               | that screws up your ability to take power measurements.
               | And many of your purely digital blocks now have "power
               | on/power off" behavior that you need to model when your
               | chip switches from active to sleep to hibernate.
               | 
               | All this is why I roll my eyes every time some group
               | implements "design initiatives" for "digital" VLSI
               | design--"digital" VLSI is "mostly solved" and has been
               | for years (what people behind these initiatives are
               | _really_ complaining about is that good VLSI designers
               | are _expensive_ --not that digital VLSI design is
               | difficult). The key point is _analog_ design (even and
               | especially for high performance digital) with simulation
               | modeling along with parasitic extraction being the
               | blockers. Until one of these  "design initiatives"
               | attacks the analog parasitic extraction and modeling,
               | they're just hot air. (Of course, you can turn that
               | statement around and say that someone attacking analog
               | parasitic extraction means they are _VERY_ serious and
               | _VERY_ interesting.)
        
               | zozbot234 wrote:
               | > It's a boring exercise for anyone with a bit of
               | industry experience as we have infinite and cheap digital
               | transistors.
               | 
               | Having "infinite and cheap" transistors is what makes
               | hardware design _not_ boring. It means designs in the
               | digital domain are now just as complex as the largest
               | software systems we work with, while still being mission-
               | critical for obvious reasons (if the floating point
               | division unit you etched into your latest batch of chips
               | is buggy and getting totally wrong results, you can 't
               | exactly ship a _software_ bugfix to billions of chips in
               | the field). This is exactly where we would expect
               | shifting to higher-level languages to be quite
               | worthwhile. Simple RISC cores are neither here nor there;
               | practical multicore, superscalar, vector, DSP, AI etc.
               | etc. is going to be a _lot_ more complex than that.
               | 
               | Complicated analog stuff can hopefully be abstracted out
               | as self-contained modules shipped as 'IP blocks',
               | including the ADC and DAC components.
        
             | zozbot234 wrote:
             | Why? If anything, commodity/non-custom hardware is what's
             | hurting right now. Fat margins on hardware imply a kind of
             | inherent flexibility that can be used to weather even
             | extreme shocks.
        
               | qbasic_forever wrote:
               | There are plenty of commodity chips that go into making a
               | full server rack. If any little power regulator, etc. is
               | backordered for months and years it's just more
               | unexpected pain. And that's before we even get to the
               | problems of entire factories shutting down, just look at
               | what's happening to Apple & Foxconn of all companies in
               | Shenzhen this week. If the big players are struggling the
               | small fries are in for pain too.
        
               | bcantrill wrote:
               | The supply chain crisis is very, very real, but we are
               | blessed with absolutely terrific operations folks coming
               | from a wide range of industrial backgrounds (e.g., Apple,
               | Lenovo, GE, P&G). They have pulled absolute supply chain
               | miracles (knocking loudly on wood!) -- but we have also
               | had the luxury of relatively small quantities (we're not
               | buying millions of anything) and new design, where we can
               | factor in lead times.
               | 
               | tl;dr: Smaller players are able to do things that larger
               | players can't -- which isn't to minimize how challenging
               | it currently is!
        
               | 0des wrote:
               | Just curious, are you all working out of the same place
               | or all remote? Curious about hardware startups and how
               | that works. Thanks
        
               | steveklabnik wrote:
               | We have an office, but many people aren't in the Bay Area
               | (myself included). Not everyone is doing hardware, and
               | some folks who do have nice home setups they enjoy
               | working with. It's a spectrum, basically.
        
               | 0des wrote:
               | Thanks steve
        
           | wmf wrote:
           | They still have to write a bunch of drivers that they'd get
           | for free with Linux. Clearly they think the tradeoff is worth
           | it but it's not obvious why.
        
             | KerrAvon wrote:
             | Possible better security/performance through better
             | architecture?
        
               | wmf wrote:
               | From what I've seen so far the same architecture could be
               | achieved on Linux (e.g. Firecracker or Intel Cloud
               | Hypervisor). To get great performance you often need to
               | get elbow-deep in somebody else's driver and that may be
               | just as much work as writing your own drivers.
        
               | NexRebular wrote:
               | Not everything has to run linux. There's enough of it in
               | IT already.
        
               | pjmlp wrote:
               | We don't need Linux monoculture.
        
       | yardie wrote:
       | Love what they are doing. And as a cloud and on-prem supporter I
       | get what they are trying to accomplish.
       | 
       | If you haven't heard you should check out their podcast, "On the
       | Metal [0]" It's a truly a gift especially if you are an elder
       | millenial.
       | 
       | [0] https://oxide.computer/podcasts
        
         | jjav wrote:
         | The podcast is awesome. Wish they would continue with more
         | episodes!
        
           | mwcampbell wrote:
           | They've been doing Twitter Spaces for several months now,
           | with recordings and show notes here:
           | https://github.com/oxidecomputer/twitter-spaces Disclosure: I
           | was the main speaker on one of their spaces.
        
             | RealityVoid wrote:
             | Whaaaaaaattt. And I've been here waiting for a new podcast,
             | like an idiot... when they had this... Thanks for the info!
        
       | NexRebular wrote:
       | I wonder if that stack would run on a HPe bladesystem. Definitely
       | something to try out after hours...
        
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