[HN Gopher] Container loaded with discarded lithium batteries ca...
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Container loaded with discarded lithium batteries catches fire
enroute to port
Author : harambae
Score : 91 points
Date : 2022-03-13 17:04 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (gcaptain.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (gcaptain.com)
| BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 wrote:
| Watch battery fires have taken down a number of aircraft.
| kortilla wrote:
| "Caused to land safely".
| musha68k wrote:
| I wonder what percentage of flights do have something like
| this kit onboard?
|
| https://cellblockfcs.com/libik-dry-fire-suppression-kits-
| cab...
|
| Also what happens when the fire is only noticed after burning
| in eg an overhead compartment?
|
| Fire on flight really is a terrible scenario.
| Maursault wrote:
| Airliners actually have crashed due to lithium battery fires.
| [1]
|
| [1]
| https://apnews.com/article/709370476f2645f299beb6c8c66d216b
| devwastaken wrote:
| Lithiums are nothing to treat carelessly. Friend of mine had a
| good quality drone battery catch their room on fire. Could not
| put out the battery, had to scoop it and put it outside until it
| stopped. The only reason it didn't burn the house down was due to
| flame retardant materials things are made out of nowadays and
| they caught it fast enough.
|
| Manufacturing by it's nature has defects, get metal containers
| for your lithium charging and don't cheap out on batteries. If
| you have old lithium batteries from laptops, drones, etc, dispose
| of them at a local transfer station properly. Or at a minimum
| locate them in something metal that has a lid in an area where
| open flame would not readily catch something on fire.
| walrus01 wrote:
| based on your post, not sure if this was a consumer drone
| battery like a DJI or similar with its own enclosure, battery
| charging dock/station, or a DIY hobbyist/quadcopter battery
| such as you might see if you bought a 6s 4000mAH lipo for a 8"
| FPV quadcopter.
|
| for the latter, the people I know who build and use such things
| always charge their batteries in an attended environment in
| some sort of mostly-fireproof setup. one has a small corner of
| their tech/hobby workbench that has a few 12" ceramic floor
| tiles stuck to a box like enclosure open on one side.
|
| since lipos are damaged and degrade if held for long times at
| 4.2V full state of charge, it's recommended for the health of
| the battery to only charge it almost immediately before you
| want to use it. ideally you would do that while nearby and
| paying attention, not leaving it totally unattended.
|
| example would be something like this
|
| https://chinahobbyline.com/shop/detail/RcCar-22.2V(6S)/CNHLg...
|
| the quality of the battery charger also matters. and be
| absolutely certain you're using the correct goal float voltage
| setting, charge rate in amps or C rating, etc.
|
| https://www.racedayquads.com/collections/isdt-products/produ...
|
| i have also heard of people who use a surplus steel ammo can
| (plentiful and cheap in many parts of the USA) for battery
| charging and lipo storage.
| markdjacobsen wrote:
| I have the dubious honor of having burned down three acres of
| Stanford's Lake Lagunita with a Li Po battery after crashing a
| drone (this was a soft pack for a DIY drone). We had been
| meticulous about charging and handling safety, but they still
| light off like fireworks if punctured. Seven years later, I'm
| still terrified of these batteries and treat them like
| explosives.
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| How would you maintain say 1-3 live, powered on laptops and 6-8
| in cold storage (but still used)?
| jotm wrote:
| Full metal cabinet preferably away from anything flammable is
| the simplest solution.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| For real? Is there anyone who doesnt just leave their
| laptop on their desk when not in use?
| tomaskafka wrote:
| My drone/rc plane loving friend has built a concrete box on a
| garden outside the house to store all the high density
| batteries there for this very reason.
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| > The bill of lading listed "computer parts," not lithium
| batteries, making responding to the fire more challenging.
|
| > the shipper failed to properly placard, label, mark and package
| the lithium batteries, and identified the cause of fire to be
| residual charge/full circuit, which led to a thermal increase.
| pizza wrote:
| Free startup idea: through-the-wall lithium battery sensing, for
| safety checks throughout the supply-chain..
| newsclues wrote:
| I was thinking rethinking the supply chain to avoid shipping
| batteries assembled in cars, or having ships designed for
| lithium battery fires.
| pizza wrote:
| It looks like the people shipping them will lie about their
| cargo's contents despite likely knowing their danger
| noodlesUK wrote:
| The real crime here was lying on the bill of lading to get around
| shipping restrictions. Lithium batteries do sometimes cause
| fires, and sometimes big ones, but we have some safety mechanisms
| to help with that kind of thing. You can't put any of them in
| place if you lie about what you're shipping
| anthropodie wrote:
| I just hope in decades to come I don't see this headline
|
| "Turns out Li ion batteries are worst than fossil fuels for
| future of Earth"
|
| Pretty sure over a century ago nobody thought that these Fossil
| fuels are going to screw the Earth so bad.
|
| Our civilization has come so far but we do have stupid tendency
| to abuse natural resources and let future generations deal with
| consequences.
| jotm wrote:
| I mean, we need portable energy storage.
|
| Could definitely use better filtering for fossil fuel exhaust.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Would the alternative be to go back to fossil fuels? That seems
| to be the implication of like 9/10 anti-lithium battery
| comments I see.
| Nasrudith wrote:
| That is a complete nonsequitor- batteries catch fire and are
| therefore worse than fossil fuels?
|
| It doesn't make any sense even in worst cases like "elements of
| batteries somehow spread across the atmosphere like nuclear
| fallout". Leaded gasoline already did far worse than even large
| amounts of trace elements dissipated.
| doctor_eval wrote:
| Oil catches fire too, you know.
| willis936 wrote:
| >Pretty sure over a century ago nobody thought that these
| Fossil fuels are going to screw the Earth so bad.
|
| They did.
|
| https://qz.com/817354/scientists-have-been-forecasting-that-...
| anthropodie wrote:
| Sure scientists do. But we the collective fails to adapt
| fkarg wrote:
| two thoughts:
|
| - there's people trying to make this case currently
|
| - when we scaled fossil fuels, terraforming was pure science
| fiction only, not something anyone realistically expected. it
| only started to become visible some 50 years later.
|
| I don't think we'll make the same mistakes, but there'll always
| be new and more expensive mistakes to make.
| iseanstevens wrote:
| Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePo4) is significantly safer in
| this aspect.
| axiolite wrote:
| As are NiMH batteries.
| [deleted]
| lnsru wrote:
| There was a story about ship full of shiny new Volkswagens
| sinking to the bottom of the ocean:
| https://m.slashdot.org/story/396813 Bad source, German newspapers
| had more detailed reports in German. Basically burning ship with
| electric cars can't be saved. That's probably also valid for
| discarded batteries.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| >Basically burning ship with electric cars can't be saved.
|
| The fire was put out and it was being towed to port when it
| sank in heavy seas. The battery cars may or may not have caused
| the fire, we just don't know.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Maybe a stupid question, but does a Li-ion battery need to be
| charged in order to burn like this?
|
| I'm not talking about the batteries that _start_ the fire.
| Obviously they won 't cause an electrical fire if they're not
| charged. I'm talking about the other batteries nearby that get
| heated up by the initial fire.
| Nasrudith wrote:
| Yes - even Lithium Ion batteries which are practically dead
| may combust if the pouch is pierced (in pouch based ones of
| course). I recall vaguely shipping standard operating
| procedure of around 10% charge for bulk batteries and 50%
| charge for electronics which contain them but don't quote me
| on those numbers. But either way more energy means bigger,
| more, and longer lasting flames.
| philipkglass wrote:
| Most lithium ion batteries contain mixtures of liquid organic
| carbonates as electrolytes. They range from moderately to
| very flammable. Here's some vendor information on dimethyl
| carbonate, one of the more flammable electrolyte components:
|
| https://smc-global.com/dimethyl-carbonate/
|
| https://smc-global.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2021/04/M3574_DIME...
|
| These liquids can burn regardless of the battery state of
| charge.
| ajross wrote:
| This is true, but pretty badly misstating the risk
| analysis. Lithium electrolytes are, on the whole,
| "flammable" in exactly the same way that things like grain
| shipments are flammable. It's a real risk, and requires
| engineering to address. They aren't remotely "dangerous"
| materials.
| userbinator wrote:
| Incidentally, besides the flammability, the electrolyte is
| otherwise quite harmless. It's comparable to ether,
| alcohol, or acetone.
| snovv_crash wrote:
| There are other components in the battery which are both
| toxic and corrosive to electronics. Please be careful of
| any broken batteries and if there is a fire don't breath
| the fumes!
| luma wrote:
| They cannot be fully discharged without permanently damaging
| the cells, so Li-ion batteries are always shipped with some
| charge.
| lobochrome wrote:
| Actually most RoRo carriers, once they start to burn sink with
| the fire being unextinguishable.
|
| Oil, Gas & Tires burn well enough. No batteries needed.
| walrus01 wrote:
| based on recent mishaps for "pure car carrier" RoRos they
| seem to have catastrophic failures based on being top-heavy
| or ballast problems, I can recall at least 3 within the past
| 20 years that have toppled over on their sides in
| catastrophic events that are non fire related.
| [deleted]
| exdsq wrote:
| Yet more evidence that k8s is too complex
| walrus01 wrote:
| Should be a criminal act for whoever mis-declared the contents on
| the bill of lading.
| sometimeshuman wrote:
| From personal experience, someone who orchestrates this sort of
| crime sets up a fall guy. The person who mis-declared the
| contents is probably just a pawn. It is surprisingly easy to
| manipulate young ambitious people, ideally from poor immigrant
| roots who have been preconditioned to observe a code of
| silence, if the senior person implies it is a routine business
| practice. Then they get caught, the fog lifts, and they blame
| themselves because the prosecutor/investigator has a rock-solid
| case.
| walrus01 wrote:
| Google "total reclaim Seattle" for some similar examples
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(page generated 2022-03-13 23:00 UTC)