[HN Gopher] Roskomsvoboda Statement (info-isolation of Russia) [...
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Roskomsvoboda Statement (info-isolation of Russia) [pdf]
Author : EugeneOZ
Score : 110 points
Date : 2022-03-09 17:03 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| [deleted]
| sega_sai wrote:
| I think it is a very important point.
|
| I perfectly well understand (and share) the anger against Russia,
| and desire to use sanctions and withdrawal of companies/services
| as a tool to reduce the quality of life in Russia and through
| that (hopefully) affect the policies of the Russian state/change
| the government. One can argue whether they will be effective, but
| it is a tool that is used as an alternative to pure war, and so
| I'd argue it is better.
|
| But in the same time, I certainly recommend for every company to
| think a little bit whether their withdrawal is going to make the
| regime life easier or harder. I would think that withdrawal of
| Cogent was counterproductive. Similarly I think the stopping of
| Mastercard/Visa (effective immediately) mostly hurt people who
| just recently left russia under the threat to their lives (like
| independent journalists).
|
| All that said, it's hard to ask companies to make a careful
| analysis about the consequences of their actions on Russian
| regime as that's not their job. So for sure there will be
| unintended consequences like hurting some people who were
| fighting the regime, and consequences helping Russia. I just hope
| the companies will try to minimise those and think a little
| before following the current pressure to disassociate from
| Russia.
| [deleted]
| sorokod wrote:
| I am all in for rational decision making, and here is a point
| to consider.
|
| All the world bullies are carefully watching and figuring out
| if they could afford their own might makes right exercise. A
| companie's action or inaction will be noted and taken into
| account.
| Schiendelman wrote:
| It's intentional to hurt Russian citizens economically. It's up
| to them to decide to form a government that doesn't invade
| others. Aside from war, this is the only thing the West can do
| to stop this insane aggression.
| sega_sai wrote:
| Yes, that is okay with me and understandable. It's just if
| the West says, lets cut off the Internet from Russia, I think
| that will just help the Russian government, so therefore it's
| not a good idea in my book.
| mikob wrote:
| If it would help them, they would've done it themselves.
| They've already taken out Twitter and Facebook without any
| hesitation.
| pacific_citizen wrote:
| But government can't take off Telegram, for example.
| Despite they tried multiple times. Source:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blocking_Telegram_in_Russia
| And thanks to Telegram, people in Russia could find non-
| propaganda sources, even when Russia blocks them.
|
| VPN helps too. A lot of people use it.
|
| While Putin has money from oil and gas, he could sponsor
| war and destroy protests. Let's take away them, stop or
| reduce buying oil and gas. Regime becomes weak and
| Russian people could resist it.
| dunkelheit wrote:
| This won't work because a) many of the current measures
| mainly hurt the most westernized part of the population (i.e.
| those most critical of the current regime) and b) this plays
| perfectly into Putin's narrative that the West hates Russia
| and the Russian people.
| miohtama wrote:
| Sanctions are to stop the flow of money to the war machine that
| is currently indiscriminately killing civilians.
|
| What goes beyond the sanctions, like business withdrawals from
| Russia (Visa, MasterCard, Microsoft, McDonalds) is a business
| decision to mitigate a geopolitical risk. The management board
| does not want to be "stained in blood" and is willing to give
| up on Russia than in any way be associated with Russian war
| propaganda. Furthermore it is likely that the current
| shareholders are going to lose the Russian business any case,
| due to nationalisation, credit defaults, oligarchs taking over,
| local mob bosses taking over, etc. Russia is a country run by
| thugs, the only law is Putin's word and when thugs see an
| opportunity they will use it.
| sega_sai wrote:
| I agree, and I support most of the sanctions and business
| withdrawals, especially when there is personnel and tax payed
| in Russia, but again as an example, if you are Russian
| opposition, you don't want to be hosted in Russia, as the
| hoster will take you down on government request, so you have
| to be hosted abroad. And now if the west just decides to
| terminate every contract from a Russian citizen, I'd say
| that'll hurt more the enemies of the government than not. But
| it's just my opinion, and you can't expect every business to
| make that kind of analysis.
| miohtama wrote:
| The free flow of information is a tough question. The
| Russian opposition is literally killed in this point, and
| only opposition that can operate has left/is leaving
| Russian. The only free flow of information for Average Ivan
| is using Telegram in this point. People are so soaked in
| disinformation that they do not believe anything outside
| Kremlin's evening news. And it will only get harder, as
| Putin wants to copy all the latest gadgets from Chinese
| firewall. I feel Chinese are happy to do some export
| business here.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Broad sanctions have more purposes than the 2 primary ones
| (limit funds available for war and make life harder for
| leaders).
|
| Sanctions of the kind we see now will, not only as an
| unfortunate side effect, for example
|
| - disproportionately cause working age and educated people to
| leave the country causing brain drain and furthering the
| demographic crisis
|
| - lowering the risk/reward threshold for ordinary people to
| protest the regime. People with somewhat comfortable lives
| might not risk prison to protest the war. People who can't
| eat or who lost their life savings in a year might.
|
| I agree that when consumer brands boycott Russia it's likely
| mostly optics and fear of consumer boycott. Not much can be
| done about that. It just happens to align with and further
| the sanctions.
|
| It's important that Russians are given international news,
| however. Cutting communications seems counter productive.
| [deleted]
| tlogan wrote:
| Just remind everybody what is going on in Ukraine:
| https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/russia-presses-offensive-as...
| jwilk wrote:
| Non-AMP link: https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-presses-
| offensive-as-ukr...
| jolmg wrote:
| Kind of wish the comments here would focus more on the need to
| fight the Russian propaganda. The point on how isolating the
| Russians helps the propaganda seems like the most important take-
| away.
|
| Instead comments seem to focus on how Russians deserve
| punishment, but how productive is this type of punishment? I
| would think it's an important goal to turn the Russians against
| Putin.
| trhway wrote:
| >The point on how isolating the Russians helps the propaganda
| seems like the most important take-away.
|
| Russians have had all the ability to watch the videos of
| Ukraine destruction and to get all the other true information
| about the war. They wouldn't. All together with Putin they have
| for 20 years been resurrecting the myth of "Great Russia",
| which in its current form is pretty much nazism (or like
| Ukrainians and Baltic countries usually call it "russism"
| ['rashizm']- short for "Russian Fascism"). Even directly facing
| the truth Russians refuse to believe it and dismiss it as
| fakes, propaganda, etc. They like to think of themselves as a
| "Big Brother liberating the smaller one". That is kind of
| mental blindness which just can't be pierced by any normal way.
| They need pain to wake up back to reality.
|
| There is only one way to deal with such a nuclear empire - like
| with USSR the Russians need to be pushed down to the level when
| they will lose any respect, fear of and obedience to their
| government while their government needs to be struck hard to
| lose economical and as result political power.
| nix23 wrote:
| Absolutely, what is the first thing a Dictator would
| do?...right shutdown the internet, but what if the Western
| "Community" shuts it down? An internet shutdown by someone else
| is the wet dream of the Government, Russnet (the russian
| Intranet) will still work and probably connected in the future
| to Xinet (name is TM by me, and ping is blocked on it). Two
| perfect Intranets, and probably also swift will get changed in
| the future with china as the exchange knot to russia and swift.
|
| That's a terrible decision for every Russian who wants to have
| a chance to find different information's.
| ardit33 wrote:
| 'Isolating Russia' -- Didn't they just ban FB and Twitter
| there? Aren't they cutting off their own internet as well? How
| is this the west doing?
|
| The west is not isolating them, just they are self isolating.
| All independent media had to shut down there.
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| There are examples in the article.
| jolmg wrote:
| > The west is not isolating them, just they are self
| isolating.
|
| Western services are also cutting them off. I get the sense
| that's helping Putin.
|
| An example:
|
| > Namecheap: Russia Service Termination
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30504812
|
| Maybe a DNS service is not the best example, but I feel like
| it's not the only service that I've seen do this.
|
| EDIT: Better example:
|
| > Internet backbone provider shuts off service in Russia
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/5/22962822/internet-
| backbone...
| ardit33 wrote:
| And your point is? They can use their own services, nobody
| wants to prevent that. But guess what? Putin doesn't like
| its citizen's to be able to read outside sources and is
| shutting things outside access himself.
|
| Even BBC has to restart using AM radio for its russian
| services (not done since the Cold War).
|
| Stop 'victim playing' and blaming the west, when you should
| be blaming your leader for the massive censorship going on
| in Russia right now.
| orbital-decay wrote:
| It seems nobody here actually read the OP, jumping
| straight to the flamewar in comments.
|
| Lumen and Cogent already stopped peering with Russian
| ISPs. It's not Russian government, and they are doing the
| dirty work for the Russian government.
|
| This is not about punishment or providing services, this
| is about _peering_ and basic connectivity at the backbone
| level. It can break the Internet as the common medium,
| and not just for Russia. This sets the precedent that
| undermines decades of development and can make the
| biggest contribution to peace in the history of humanity
| fall apart into different bubbles.
| nix23 wrote:
| >can make the biggest contribution to peace in the
| history of humanity fall apart into different bubbles.
|
| Very powerful message and on point, it's no wonder every
| dictator shuts the net down when things start to
| turn/burn internally.
| jolmg wrote:
| > Stop 'victim playing' and blaming the west, when you
| should be blaming your leader for the massive censorship
| going on in Russia right now.
|
| TF? I'm not Russian.
|
| I put a better example.
| KBme wrote:
| nix23 wrote:
| Look i get it, you are angry but stop telling people that
| their leader is someone and accuse them of "victim
| playing", was Trump your leader? Has anyone told you that
| you are playing victim? Was Bush Jr your leader the guy
| who attacked two Country's and lied about Chemical
| weapons in Iraq..where did i heard something like that
| lately?
|
| https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-moscows-claims-of-
| bio...
| fennecfoxen wrote:
| The Internet -- both the network backbone and the many
| websites that operate on the Internet -- is mostly operated
| for profit, and running it isn't free. Collecting payment
| from Russian sources right now is dodgy; payment providers
| are unlikely to help, banks are sanctioned, and the risk of
| not getting paid is high. Moscow currency exchanges have
| been shut down, and we see the government decree that bonds
| denominated in foreign currencies will be paid in rubles.
| Certain foreign entities are seeing their property and
| businesses in Russia nationalized (as a kind of retaliation
| for ceasing business).
|
| This environment of elevated risk is ample reason for any
| international business to avoid business with Russian
| nationals, other Russian entities, and anything to do with
| Russia, generally, at this time. It is unfortunate that
| Russian citizens may see less of the outside world as a
| consequence of these high level sanctions and of this
| politically risky situation. It is not the responsibility
| of these operators to remedy that.
| [deleted]
| dunkelheit wrote:
| If history is any guide, businesses are totally ok with
| dodgy payment methods (Russia paid Pepsi with warships
| once) and dealing with governments that are not that
| respectful towards private property as long as profit is
| expected. The main risks now are reputational. Cynically,
| I would put it that way - withdrawing from Russia has
| gone viral, all the cool kids are doing it.
| vernie wrote:
| Russia is isolating the Russians. Roskomnadzor is throttling
| and blocking the Russian people's access to the wider internet,
| not Western providers.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Russia is isolating the Russians. Roskomnadzor is
| throttling and blocking the Russian people's access to the
| wider internet, not Western providers.
|
| Let's not help them do their job, then, even a little bit.
| Some of the recent sanctions/pullouts are probably
| counterproductive, e.g.:
|
| 1. Visa/Mastercard cutting off service. - It seems like a big
| result of this has been to make it more difficult for
| Russians to flee the country. If you want to harm the Russian
| government, one way to do that is through a brain drain, so
| make that easy.
|
| 2. The Cogent disconnection. - If an authoritarian government
| wants to disconnect, then the correct response is to try to
| do the opposite.
|
| 3. etc. - e.g. the Namecheap thing. Maybe they should have
| enacted a content policy rather than just cutting off the
| whole country. Though their response seems forgivably human
| since they have so many people in Ukraine.
|
| IMHO, cutoffs should only be done strategically or for
| reasonable tactical reasons (e.g. cybersecurity threats). In
| some cases if you want to Russia's actions, in some cases the
| best action is to leave, but in other's it's to stay (or
| carefully change policy).
| jolmg wrote:
| > If you want to harm the Russian government, one way to do
| that is through a brain drain, so make that easy.
|
| I'm doubtful of that. I think an authoritarian government
| might benefit from a brain drain.
|
| Even if a brain drain were desirable, there's no way the
| effectiveness of that outweighs the harm to the economy
| that the cutoff by Visa/Mastercard would have.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Even if a brain drain were desirable, there's no way
| the effectiveness of that outweighs the harm to the
| economy that the cutoff by Visa/Mastercard would have.
|
| My understanding is that the cutoff only affects 1)
| foreign cards in Russia and 2) Russian cards outside of
| Russia, because domestic Russian credit card transactions
| are cleared with a different (domestic) system. So it
| mainly affects tourists and expats, and probably has
| minimal impact on the domestic economy.
| jolmg wrote:
| > 2) Russian cards outside of Russia, because domestic
| Russian credit card transactions are cleared with a
| different (domestic) system. So it mainly affects
| tourists and expats, and probably has minimal impact on
| the domestic economy.
|
| Wouldn't that also affect online transfers that cross
| their border? For example, their international purchases
| and payment of services, and also their receipt of
| payments from international employers or clients.
| jolmg wrote:
| > not Western providers
|
| An example:
|
| > Namecheap: Russia Service Termination
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30504812
|
| EDIT: Better example:
|
| > Internet backbone provider shuts off service in Russia
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2022/3/5/22962822/internet-
| backbone...
| ptero wrote:
| OK, Western providers do this, too. But I think the much
| bigger problem is that all independent media, everything
| except reliably pro-Kremlin sources, is being very
| aggressively shut down from the inside. And that includes
| access to outside channels and programs.
|
| While I generally agree that the West should not be
| shutting down the information pipes, in this environment
| the additional harm of such actions may be minimal.
| sndean wrote:
| I'm not sure Namecheap should be used as an example of a
| Western provider. While I think they're technically based
| in the US, according to their CEO they have many employees
| in one of the Ukrainian cities currently being bombed:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30506813
| jolmg wrote:
| Right. I put a better example.
| vernie wrote:
| I think the impact of this action compared to state
| internet censorship is insignificant.
| jolmg wrote:
| Right. I put a better example.
| vbezhenar wrote:
| As long as The Internet is available to Russians, people will
| find a way around Roskomnadzor blocks. All it takes is a
| single 100Mb VPS to provide VPN connection for 10-20 people.
| It's decentralized and can't be blocked, at least without
| making it criminal offense which did not happen yet.
|
| But West, blocking Visa essentially made it impossible for
| average Russian IT guy to pay for VPS. And if The Internet
| would be cut off, the game is over, the entire country will
| be brain washed by Russian propaganda exclusively. I guess,
| it should be possible to use UnionPay to buy VPS in Turkey or
| something like that.
|
| I, personally, don't believe that western propaganda is one
| bit better that Russian propaganda. It's the same half-
| truths, half-lies, just picked differently. But what I do
| believe is that every person must have access to all points
| of view, without any exclusions. And must be encouraged to
| learn all points of view for important subjects.
| [deleted]
| itronitron wrote:
| Russians have been living with Putin in charge for the last
| twenty years. I doubt that anyone immune to the propaganda will
| suddenly start to believe it, and I also doubt that people that
| believe the propaganda could have their minds suddenly changed.
| mindslight wrote:
| It's not a matter of whether propaganda is "believed". The
| goal of propaganda is not to redefine the truth, but rather
| to destroy the notion of truth. It's about shifting the
| Overton window, giving backing to cognitive dissonance, and
| obscuring the true extent of how bad things are. As such,
| even those who do not believe it are still affected by its
| relative quantity versus truthful messages.
| notahacker wrote:
| Or put more subtly, the sort of Russian that generally
| believes Russian media isn't particularly likely to have
| bought a VPN to access alternative perspectives if only their
| Visa/Mastercard still worked. The sort of Russian that
| _would_ have done that is fairly unlikely to believe that the
| war must be going well because it 's even harder for them to
| access Facebook.
| jolmg wrote:
| Even if that's the case, it's still not helping.
| brimble wrote:
| Either access to the global Internet is not, in fact,
| economically valuable, _or_ yes, it absolutely would help
| (in the sense of harming the Russian economy, that is)
| jolmg wrote:
| I'm not against harming their economy, but am against
| harming their access to information. I don't think doing
| the former necessitates doing the latter. In the cases
| where they overlap, I think the harm to the economy is
| negligible.
| brimble wrote:
| If the Russian government thought that the parts of the
| Internet they still allow were any threat, in excess of
| the economic or strategic benefit it provides, they'd
| have already cut it off. I think the viability of any
| kind of Internet-based propaganda war are badly over-
| estimated by its proponents, especially when the other
| side gets to filter out entire sites that are
| inconvenient. It works much better against a foe that's
| far more open (so, us).
| jolmg wrote:
| I want to keep open the possibility that the Russian
| government's ability/competency to censor the internet
| effectively is what's over-estimated.
| notahacker wrote:
| Depends on which scenario you consider more likely:
| ordinary Russians to turn against their government
| because the economy is screwed and their lifestyle is
| much worse than last year or ordinary Russians to turn
| against the government because having cheerfully believed
| and consumed state media over foreign alternatives,
| they'd rush out to buy VPNs on their Mastercards to
| consume the foreign alternatives as soon as Putin blocked
| them. I'm going to go out in a limb and suggest the
| former is more likely.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| Many of us believe that Internet or not will have basically no
| impact on this question of turning Russians against Putin.
|
| I have lived through the entire life of the Internet and seen
| only the exact opposite things happened that we all expected
| and hoped would happen with free and open access to
| information. Conspiracy theories thrived rather than got
| rebutted, political discourse worsened, it did not improve. The
| power of large corporations increased, power was not
| democratized.
|
| Perhaps without Internet young people will be bored and when
| young men are idle they tend to turn to the kind of violent
| uprising Russia probably needs.
| jolmg wrote:
| > Perhaps without Internet young people will be bored and
| when young men are idle they tend to turn to the kind of
| violent uprising Russia probably needs.
|
| That seems way too improbable.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| Animats wrote:
| Keeping ordinary Russians connected to the outside world is a win
| for all sides. Every news outlet in Russia that wasn't totally
| state controlled has been shut down. Rain TV was the last to go.
| jacquesm wrote:
| There is a downside to this too: Russian propaganda is aimed
| abroad as well, and it is surprisingly effective in spite of us
| having access to alternative news sources. Their talking points
| and quotes show up all over the internet, including on HN, with
| alarming regularity.
| KarlKemp wrote:
| These measures definitely hit many users that aren't causally
| responsible for the acts of their government. Some may even be in
| open opposition of the acts committed in their name.
|
| Unfortunately, the latter is but a small fraction of the
| population. The vast majority of Russians are remaining silent.
| The chance that these blocks will prevent any of that group from
| learning about the war when they still have not been reached at
| this point is slim. Blocking of accounts doesn't usually prevent
| you from reading the news, anyway.
|
| Russian media is downplaying the event. Making peoples' lives
| inconvenient has the chance of making them take notice, which is
| a first step.
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| It's not about the inconvenience at all.
| throwmeariver1 wrote:
| It is with sanctions as it is with war civilians, progressives,
| everyone will get hurdled up in it. Arguing for one but not
| against the other is hubris.
| diego_moita wrote:
| If western internet were that dangerous to the Russian Regime
| they'd already have it blocked. They already did it with FB and
| other sites.
|
| This "Statement" looks a lot like a false flag.
| exabrial wrote:
| Russia-phobia isn't going to help the Ukraine. Hate in any form
| isn't going to help.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| And is pointing out that Russia used the internet extensively
| to meddle in numerous elections and the societal issues of
| numerous countries, and openly condones organized crime and
| private citizens engaging in hacking against anyone not Russian
| "Russia-phobia"?
|
| If you want to keep filling up your car with gas, maybe stop
| setting people's barns on fire all the time.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| agree with this
| axiosgunnar wrote:
| I am afraid of Russia.
|
| Who isn't afraid of a corrupt super-oligarch that seems to have
| the authority to kill tens of thousands at a whim with his
| nation-state army and doesn't answer to nobody?
|
| Nevermind the nuclear button!
|
| I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance.
| [deleted]
| FpUser wrote:
| >"I think being a Russophobe is the only rational stance"
|
| You gonna start chasing them with pitchforks in your own
| country?
| flyinglizard wrote:
| Well if they come in armed convoys...
| m000 wrote:
| I'm pretty sure there have been (and still are) more than one
| country leaders that fit your description. Some of them even
| come with a complimentary nuclear button.
| ed_balls wrote:
| That's why call it Putin's war. Russian didn't vote for it.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| Putin has broad support in the Russian population. And that
| support went _up_ after the annexation of Crimea and the
| start of this war. I have family and friends in Russia, all
| of which have access to international media, and many of them
| are still at the very least moderately supportive of this.
|
| This narrative that Putin is somehow solely waging a war with
| the entire population in opposition is an absolute meme. If
| the Russian people were sick of him they'd depose him,
| elections or no elections, Russians have done it to their
| leaders plenty of times.
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| Plenty of times? Any examples, please? I'm really curious.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| start with the February and October Revolutions and go
| from there. If there's any country that knows how to
| depose a Tsar, it's Russia.
|
| In any country as vast and populous like Russia leaders
| always depend on the consent of the governed autocratic
| or not. I know it doesn't fit into this comical worldview
| where every Russian is secretly an American yearning to
| breathe free, oppressed by Putin.
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| It's the ONE single example. Sponsored and organized by
| the west :) What are multiple cases? All the next rulers
| have died quietly in old age.
|
| I hope putin will be the second case.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| I was saying this at first I now see more and more evidence
| that Russians as a whole aren't wholly innocent.
|
| Firstly can't ignore the rise of putin and him gaining more
| power & popularity after similar attacks. He at least used to
| be broadly popular, even though he messes with the actual
| elections.
|
| And a LOT of Russians support the war.
|
| Here is a poll I put in another comment puts at 58% support.
| I read another I think from Navalny said 50% but I can't find
| it so grain of salt.
|
| complicated given they only see lies on TV.
|
| But at this point the conscript soldiers know what they are
| doing. A lot of Russians ARE connected to the West and know
| the truth.
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-
| publi...
| 0134340 wrote:
| At some point you have to take personal responsibility for
| the leaders you elect or your failure to keep a poor leader
| from office. If you didn't vote for them due to apathy or
| whatever, it's not an excuse. Apathy can have its own form of
| malignant harm. If your leader is causing global malignancy
| and harming innocents, only so much sympathy can be invested
| in the general population from others. Also from what I've
| gathered from other Russians, not just ones friendly to
| westerners which are more prone to be against the war, it
| seems just as many Russians are for the war as against it.
| MockObject wrote:
| What a novel repudiation of the very concept of tyranny.
| Are any governments really oppressive, when they're all
| actually operating according to the consent of the
| governed? Why do tyrants even bother with the apparatus of
| repression? The population is technically repressing
| itself, according to this view.
| krzyk wrote:
| Some did. If most would object you would see millions in
| streets, not few thousands.
| filoleg wrote:
| > If most would object you would see millions in streets,
| not few thousands.
|
| Not when the consequence of that is being beaten up,
| tortured, and then put in prison for up to 15 years (as per
| the recent law changes). Oh, and getting your relatives
| punished as well, despite them having nothing to do with
| it. Here is a take on it from Human Rights Watch[0]. Just
| the knowledge of such consequences makes a person just shut
| down, carry on, and not worry much about anything except
| your own and your family's survival.
|
| Side-tangent: sometimes I really do wonder what kind of
| cushy and sheltered lives some users on HN live, where they
| instantly jump to "if people don't protest in millions, it
| means they support Putin". I think I am pretty comfortable
| now, but I still very clearly remember what it was like
| living in Russia (before I escaped to the US over a decade
| ago), so these types of replies grind me the wrong type of
| way.
|
| And yes, there are plenty of people who actually support
| Putin in Russia, and we need them on our side. Some support
| him out of ignorance, some for other reasons. But, I think,
| it is a bit less surprising if you phrase it as "Plenty of
| Russian people supported the special operation for
| liberating people in Ukraine". It is a blatant lie, but
| more and more people in Russia are opening their eyes to
| this being total bs. Sanctions help, outside news drumming
| up the reporting of the conflict help.
|
| On their own, those things don't seem that wild, but if you
| couple total brainwashing with extremely severe and brutal
| consequence for even questioning the narrative, you get an
| extremely repressed population that will be heavily
| discouraged (even within their own heads) from protesting.
|
| 0. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/09/russia-brutal-
| arrests-an...
| [deleted]
| lottin wrote:
| Exactly, Ukrainians need to change their strategy, because hate
| won't work against Russians. Instead they need to attack the
| Russian invaders with flowers and confetti. This will surely
| stop them.
| [deleted]
| strathmeyer wrote:
| Russian propaganda is that this war is because of the west's
| Russia-phobia and hatred.
| 1ris wrote:
| This is not Russophobic. This is war-crime-critical.
|
| Oh and when attracted you can surrender or fight. If you fight
| you might loose, but if you don't, you lost. Hate is not only
| justified, it does absolutely help.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| Sanctions targeted at the leaders making the decisions in
| Russia seem war-crime-critical. Indiscriminately screwing
| over random citizens who may not even support the regime or
| war isn't war-crime-critical.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| I'm for opening up the internet there - even as others
| point out there's not much we can do when RU has their own
| great firewall.
|
| But two things in response to this:
|
| - While hard to know with certainty, there is strong
| evidence a plurality of Russians support the war. Caveat
| given what they are swayed by Putins' gov media lies.
|
| I read 58% in this source and I can't find it but I think
| Navalny org said 50%. [1]
|
| Furthermore yes while it seems young conscripts were sent
| into Ukraine at this point it would be very clear to those
| on the ground what they are doing. I get they are probably
| making calculations about punishment or even death for
| desertion. But they aren't ignorant at this point but
| active participants.
|
| Russian civilians aren't close to wholly innocent.
|
| - I'm afraid that targeted sanctions have not and will not
| work.
|
| I'm not sure if punishing the population economically will
| cause regime change. I hope it will. They have to fight if
| they want it - yes I understand the deadly costs of that
| but it's a choice millions of people are making in Ukraine
| and have throughout history. One reason there is more
| sympathy than say Afghanistan.
|
| Even if lowering life quality in Russia doesn't cause
| change, this is a response to obscene attacks; i think the
| sanctions are actually less than proportional/reciprocal.
| proportional would be 'kinetic' military but that's
| obviously super dangerous.
|
| Should always remember humanitarian aid through.
|
| Sadly this high road is being bombed in Ukraine right now
| (maternity ward is just another stressed expletive filled
| morning for me)
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/08/russia-
| publi...
| beebmam wrote:
| The sanctions will stop when Russia halts its invasion.
| It's not like this is a one-sided affair. Russia has
| decided its invasion is worth more than sanctions on its
| own people.
|
| No country owes it to any other country to trade with them.
| Any country absolutely has the right to revoke its
| willingness to trade with other countries on a case by case
| basis. Any country or organization that sanctions Russia is
| doing the right thing, too; all decent people in the world
| should be using all non-violent means _at the minimum_ to
| make war so costly for aggressors that war becomes near-
| impossible. If anything, Russia is not sanctioned enough
| currently.
|
| Edit: Don't forget that there are > 2 million Ukrainian
| refugees currently who have been forced to flee their
| country. Those that continue to live in Ukraine are having
| their homes and infrastructure bombed or disconnected. The
| suffering of the Russian people due to these sanctions
| pales in comparison to the suffering that the Russian
| government/military is directly inflicting on Ukrainians.
| Those sanctions will be lifted as soon as Russia stops
| inflicting harm on Ukrainians.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| What is your history with sanctioning? What country are
| you from?
|
| Have you ever sanctioned anyone before in this manner?
| Israel? Syria? Iraq? The US? China? India?
|
| I never said sanctioning _couldn 't_ be done. I'm just
| saying if your sanctions affect random citizens who are
| already powerless, and not the leaders of the country,
| then you're just being an asshole, and no, you aren't
| helping.
| fouc wrote:
| Sanctions are a step down from going to war. Are you
| advocating that sanctions should be skipped, and we
| should just go straight to war?
|
| Sanctions are just one of the few tools in the toolbox
| that can be used to punish a country's leadership,
| besides going to war.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| I've already stated that I'm okay with sanctions that
| target the actual leadership of Russia but not random
| citizens who already have no power over their government.
| fouc wrote:
| How is that possible? Leadership already steal from their
| citizens anyways.
| beebmam wrote:
| Are you claiming that sanctions on Russia will affect
| _ONLY_ the average citizens of Russia; that is, are you
| arguing that sanctions on Russia will have ZERO effect on
| the country 's ability to wage its aggressive war in
| Ukraine? It seems to me that this is your implied
| argument here, and if so, that's straight up incorrect.
|
| If that ISN'T your argument, is your argument then:
| "Sanctions will affect both the Russian government's
| ability to wage war AND the Russian people, and because
| the sanctions affect the Russian people, they are not
| justified" ? Could it ever be the case that sanctions
| could affect only a government's ability to wage war and
| never the people of a country? Are you then arguing that
| sanctions are _never_ justified no matter the
| circumstances? How far are you willing to take this
| argument? Should a country be forced to trade and engage
| in business with a country that is currently invading
| them?
|
| I really don't understand exactly what you're arguing
| here and I'd appreciate clarification
| pydry wrote:
| >The sanctions will stop when Russia halts its invasion.
|
| I kind of doubt that. I think it might bea while until
| these sanctions are taken down.
| beebmam wrote:
| Dialing back the sanctions are a key bargaining tool.
| They certainly will be reduced as the invasion stops and
| recedes. And they'll be dialed up as they continue
| 1ris wrote:
| War is a interaction between nations as a hole. Just like
| Russia as a uniform entity attacks and supplies this war
| (via taxes, e.g.), Ukraine as a whole is the victim of the
| attack. It is the responsibility of the average Russian joe
| to ensure he has a non-war-warmongering government. If the
| fails that responsibility, he will have to suffer the
| consequences. Even With or without any sanctions, just as
| the natural course due to the nature of war.
|
| Keep things in perspective: No body wants to send the
| average internet user to la Hague. That's the place for
| Putin and those who fly the air raids. This is just making
| this average day a bit worse for the sake of stifling
| Russias ability to sustain this attack.
|
| All of this will stop the moment the invasion stops.
| Russian Joes wants it to stop? Fine, go complain at those
| who choose to continue the war. There is a direct cause-
| and-effect relation there.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| 1ris wrote:
| Does punching them in the noose reduce the ability of the
| state of russia to wage war? No. So don't do it.
|
| People don't have their citizen ship tattooed to their
| faces.
|
| What you wrote is just plain silly.
|
| Should you punch your boss (nationality irrelevant) in
| the face for selling MREs and Ammo to Russia? Absolutely.
| googlryas wrote:
| Sure it does. Most people don't want to get punched in
| the nose, so they will work harder to stop the war in
| order to not get punched in the nose.
|
| I'd love to know how info-isolating Russia is effective
| at reducing the ability of the state to wage war, but not
| punching random Russians in the nose.
| 1ris wrote:
| Random people getting punched will not be collective
| problem with a collective response. The cause-and-effect
| is simply not there. Having enough non-punched dudes is
| also simply not required for war. Having Internet (as
| _The_ Internet) helps a whole lot. For Psy-Ops, trade and
| commerce. There are videos of russian troops using google
| maps for mortar targeting,e.g.
| MockObject wrote:
| I'm not seeing the distinction. I think if enough
| Russians were punched enough, they'd stop the war. The
| argument holds.
| butthe88 wrote:
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| Look at the polls. Russian population is supporting this
| crazy war. They are not some innocent bystanders.
| delegate wrote:
| The Internet was totally open for Russians until 2 weeks ago.
|
| Yet that did not stop the war, even after months of warnings and
| pleas from the entire world. People of Russia did not try to stop
| Putin from the inside, too few went to the streets to prevent the
| war from starting. They did not do enough to protest against the
| illegal annexation of Crimea and the creation of the 'republics'
| in 2014.
|
| Most services were up until the day the war started, people could
| share information freely, they could use the word 'war' and
| 'peace' without risk of being arrested. Yet that did not help.
|
| In fact, the power in Russia is known to exploit the unlimited
| access to world Internet to spread out misinformation, get
| involved in hacking political campaigns in other countries,
| kremlin bots, ransomware gangs, etc.
|
| Due to this war, Russians are no longer considered trustworthy
| partners in politics, business, sports, science, arts, etc, so
| companies choose not to be associated with Russia because that
| hurts their business in other countries around the world.
|
| I mean, to the world Putin is Hitler now. Would you agree to
| Hitler keeping all his international privileges while he was
| invading other countries ?
|
| Businesses have to do what they have to do. Sadly that means that
| those 22% percent of Russians who oppose the war will have to
| endure the full impact of the world's emotional reaction to what
| the majority of Russians allowed to happen (and currently
| support).
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| Even the most ideological putinists will lose the battle to
| their refrigerators soon - because of economic sanctions.
|
| It will lead them to the streets. And at this moment they'll
| look for a leader, for the truth, for the information and
| secure communications (free of censorship).
|
| This statement is not about lifting the economic sanctions,
| it's only about Internet access.
| sam_lowry_ wrote:
| > The Internet was totally open for Russians until 2 weeks ago.
|
| It was not. Roskomsvoboda was created to track blocking lists
| in 2012.
|
| It's been 10 years since internet started to be blocked in
| Russia.
| lostmsu wrote:
| It was totally open from the side of the rest of the world.
| Like 99% open even from the inside.
|
| You are pecking on a branch, but the argument you reply to
| speaks about the forest.
| ccbccccbbcccbb wrote:
| I'll just leave it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_anti-
| war_protests_in_Russ...
| mmaunder wrote:
| I don't think you can entirely separate the accountability of a
| government from the accountability of its people. Take Apartheid
| South Africa for example:
|
| Tremendous external pressure was applied on South Africa which
| affected its people. I was one of them. This created the impetus
| for internal change and resulted in, first a referendum to
| determine if South Africa would become a democracy- and then the
| actual transformation.
|
| The world must continue to apply pressure on the whole of Russia.
| It sucks for the Russian people. Trust me, I get it.
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| Look at the polls. Russian people support this war. They
| deserve everything that's happening to them in retaliation.
| EB-Barrington wrote:
| This is hard for many people to accept. The Russian people
| guilty. If we believe in democracy, then accept that it's the
| majority will of the Russian people to support Putin's
| decision to send forces to:
|
| - bomb hospitals - kill children - rape women - massacre
| civilians - destroy homes - bomb a holocaust memorial site -
| etc etc etc
|
| Russia will not recover from this in any of our lifetimes.
| When the true scale of this terror inflicted upon Ukraine is
| known by the world, frankly, everyone will be shocked beyond
| belief.
|
| Hello from Kyiv
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| This PDF doesn't contain text in Russian to don't push back
| people who can't read Russian. It was done by me, text was not
| edited at all, only russian pages removed.
|
| Original document (ru, en, fr):
| https://roskomsvoboda.org/uploads/documents/statement_of_ros...
|
| Web version (ru): https://roskomsvoboda.org/post/zayavlenie-
| protiv-otklyucheni...
| [deleted]
| xdennis wrote:
| > so-called "special operation" in Ukraine
|
| You can't take them seriously when they parrot the Kremlin's
| language. They only use "so-called" to avoid calling it what it
| is: a war of conquest. Putin explicitly said he wants Crimea and
| Donbas.
| brimble wrote:
| I'm pretty sure "so-called" and scare quotes were supposed to
| communicate in bright flashing lights that they don't think the
| label is accurate.
| flyinglizard wrote:
| Russians can be heavily penalized by calling this anything
| other than the Kremlin's official line.
| diego_moita wrote:
| The (Russian) author lives in Barcelona, Spain. What penalty
| would he receive?
|
| [1] https://stackoverflow.com/cv/oz
| kreeben wrote:
| Imprisonment of his relatives in Russia. This is not
| unheard of.
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| I am not the author of the statement. So I do call it war:
| https://twitter.com/eugeniyoz/status/1496855352310222849
| danbruc wrote:
| What about not shutting down the internet but replying to ten
| percent of all requests with information and images about the war
| instead of the requested page?
| [deleted]
| viktorcode wrote:
| TL;DR Cogent did what Putin was doing for the last decade:
| destroying free internet in Russia.
| spupe wrote:
| I agree with this statement. Cutting people off from the internet
| in today's world is akin to cutting them off electricity.
|
| I also worry that while the West seems to be in complete
| agreement that harsh punishment on Russia is fair, it may or may
| not be the case in the future that such punishment is reserved to
| those who "deserve" it.
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| Cutting off the electricity is less damaging. Because if they
| have no sources of information, then all they have is
| propaganda.
|
| If they have no access to free chat apps - they have no safe
| way to communicate.
|
| It just can not help them to overthrow Putin.
|
| I see the point in economic sanctions - people should be forced
| to go to the streets. Brutally forced, if needed. I agree that
| it's necessary.
|
| But they still should have access to information (not only
| propaganda) and secure communication.
| KarlKemp wrote:
| In almost all cases, cutting off the electricity over any
| significant amount of time will also make it impossible to
| access the internet. It is therefore impossible for only the
| second thing to be worse than the first & second thing.
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| Without electricity, you have solar chargers and wifi/4g.
| waffleiron wrote:
| OP's point is that "cutting off the internet" means cutting
| off access to the Western internet, and not "all internet".
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| There are ways to deliver propaganda without the internet
| (television, lessons in schools - it is being heavily
| used right now), but there are no ways to spread the real
| information without Internet access.
| fpoling wrote:
| Short-wave radio is an option
| m000 wrote:
| Or printing pamphlets on the hectograph.
| danbruc wrote:
| _Cutting off the electricity is less damaging._
|
| Without electricity, no internet, to a first approximation.
| So I tend to disagree because one mostly entails the other.
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| And no propaganda, so it's still less damaging.
| cyberge99 wrote:
| Propaganda was delivered via air drops back in the day.
| Perhaps Ukraine could deploy leaflets via helium balloons or
| similarly primitive mechanism.
| mint2 wrote:
| Are you saying 1.) Russia doesn't deserve punishment or
|
| 2.) although Russia does deserve punishment they shouldn't be
| punished because sometime later someone who doesn't deserve
| punished will be punished
|
| By that logic how could any action have a penalty or
| punishment?
| 1ris wrote:
| It's almost as if there currently there is a imperialist war
| going on in Europe that includes the systematic destruction of
| civil infrastructure such as hospitals, power plants and
| residential areas.
|
| Cutting the aggressor of from electricity and internet is of
| course the least thing you should do. Arms supply is ofc
| better, but hey, doing this will not hurt.
|
| And hey, if a little bit of economic inconvenience is not
| "deserved" for a fucking invasion, how high would you like to
| have this bar? This is as high as it can be.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Both of you can be right.
|
| Cutting a country off from the Internet can be an extremely
| serious step and subject to great risk of being abused...
| while also being a reasonable response in the case of an
| unprovoked military invasion of a democracy and targeting of
| its civilian population.
| [deleted]
| vl wrote:
| Russian Government itself is working hard to isolate their
| segment of internet so they can control it and firewall it
| Chinese style to push their propaganda unrestricted. So
| willfully cutting it off for _them_ is essentially helping
| the enemy.
|
| There used to be Radio Svoboda to counter Soviet propaganda.
| Nowadays West need to be working hard to ensure there is
| internet in Russia and news and communications are available,
| so regular people cans see non-government news sources and
| dissidents can securely coordinate. I don't understand why
| it's so hard to comprehend.
| mikob wrote:
| They've had open access to the internet until now and look
| where we've gotten. Having open access to the internet was
| not convincing enough Russians to condemn their government.
| So maybe getting people inconvenienced enough to show them
| the world condemns their actions is a better shot.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| And imagine the country being supplied with electricity was
| constantly using it to disrupt the electrical supplies of its
| neighbors for political and economic benefit.
|
| Decades of Russia shitting all over the internet, both as a
| state and egging its citizens and organized crime to do so
| privately, has finally come home to roost.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| The logical conclusion of this argument is that no negative
| action can be taken against a state, as said negative action
| might later be taken wrongly in the future. Thus we have to
| just let Russia invade Ukraine and kill everyone there.
| remarkEon wrote:
| >I also worry that while the West seems to be in complete
| agreement that harsh punishment on Russia is fair, it may or
| may not be the case in the future that such punishment is
| reserved to those who "deserve" it.
|
| Nor is it immediately clear that this strategy is actually a
| wise one when you consider all other geopolitical variables in
| play. Setting the conditions for a Russo-Sino alliance in the
| Pacific Theater is something that should give everyone pause
| given CCP's increasing bellicosity regarding the Taiwan
| question. "They deserve it" is not really a guiding principle
| for policy grounded in anything other than whatever peculiar
| moral constraints elites set for themselves.
| brimble wrote:
| If we could cut off Russia's electricity like we could the
| Internet, without that being likely to escalate to a hot war
| with them, we'd do that too. We'd be crazy not to.
| xdennis wrote:
| > Cutting people off from the internet in today's world is akin
| to cutting them off electricity.
|
| Russians have no reason to complain when they're cutting of
| Mariupol's water and food supply. There's already a case of a
| child dying from dehydration.
| spupe wrote:
| Is it Russians, or their government? This distinction
| matters, most of us who live in the US or Europe would also
| personal responsibility for war crimes by this standard.
| xdennis wrote:
| Putin is not on the frontlines. His citizens are.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| What a joke. This is troll bait intended to start a flame war.
| 9214 wrote:
| What an interesting case of self-describing sentence!
| birdyrooster wrote:
| Precisely the issue with the post, it encourages my behavior.
| butthe88 wrote:
| poxrud wrote:
| "We strongly condemn the actions of governments and the private
| sector, represented by the owners of websites, social networks,
| online platforms and marketplaces who resort to arbitrarily
| blocking accounts of or restricting access to users from Russia
| and arbitrary labeling of the content of Russian users."
|
| It's hard to take them seriously when they don't even condemn the
| war crimes of their own government.
| [deleted]
| egze wrote:
| Quite a lot of condemning, demanding and calling for actions from
| the western society. Yet, not once was the word "war" mentioned.
| Not once were the actions of the Russian government and Putin
| condemned.
|
| How about you - Roskomsvoboda focus your energy on stopping the
| war, so Ukrainians can also enjoy the benefits of new
| technologies?
| EugeneOZ wrote:
| Are you aware that there is a law (published a few days ago)
| and people living in Russia can be sentenced to 15 years in
| prison for calling it war?
| baggioronaldo wrote:
| Sanctions against Russia should focus on stopping the war, and
| not merely on punishing Russians.
|
| I think that cutting off internet in Russia punishes Russia, but
| doesn't do anything towards stopping the war. On the contrary,
| eliminating internet will further cut off Russians from the
| truth, resulting in further brainwashing of Russian population,
| more support for Putin, and ultimately more Ukrainian deaths.
| brimble wrote:
| Does the global Internet, or does it not, provide immense value
| to an economy? If it does, then of course we should consider
| cutting them off. If not, then IDK why we're all so well-paid.
|
| I think the "we could use it to counter propaganda" angle is
| weak. If Russia thought that might work, _they_ would have
| already cut it off.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > I think the "we could use it to counter propaganda" angle
| is weak. If Russia thought that might work, they would have
| already cut it off.
|
| More to the point, Russia _does_ think that might work, and
| _has been_ selectively cutting off the parts that it sees as
| enabling that. What 's left is what the Russian government
| sees as useful for themselves.
| brimble wrote:
| Yes, that's a good point. They've shown themselves entirely
| willing to cut out the parts that they think do them more
| harm than good. What remains is the part they think is net-
| beneficial, so _unless we think they are very wrong about
| that_ it may well be sensible to cut off their access
| completely, to the extent we are able.
| pacific_citizen wrote:
| Hi from Moscow.
|
| Right now Putin spend billion dollars from oil and gas to sponsor
| war and inner forces which harshly destroy any protests.
|
| The only effective sanctions *against* Putin - is to cut down
| buying gas and oil. But Europe and other countries resist to do
| so.
|
| Yeah, it may sounds promising to someone that cutting Russian off
| the Internet will help protests, but it's not. Regime is still
| incredibly rich and could sponsor any aggressive activity.
|
| First thing that West must do - to make Putin's poor. And then
| Russians could resist against him. Right now he has multi
| billions army and law against unarmed citizens.
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