[HN Gopher] Amazon rainforest is losing its ability to recover f...
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Amazon rainforest is losing its ability to recover from destruction
Author : TangerineDream
Score : 125 points
Date : 2022-03-08 15:58 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ft.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ft.com)
| ajot wrote:
| Sorry for the whataboutism, but what about european forests? Are
| we seeing them recovering any soon or we shouldn't care because
| it happened hundreds of years ago?
| colordrops wrote:
| Sorry to switch to a meta-topic, accusations of "whataboutism"
| have shutdown self-awareness of hypocrisy and prevented
| holistic thinking in so many cases. It needs to go away.
| blastonico wrote:
| Now - that they've already gotten very rich by exploiting
| theirs (and OURS brazilian forests) - it's forbidden.
| fkfkno wrote:
| Going off recent accounts, it's not looking great:
|
| https://weather.com/science/environment/news/2017-11-28-germ...
|
| https://www.hs2rebellion.earth/2021/04/27/high-court-judge-g...
|
| Poland still has something like 30% tree coverage which is
| quite impressive, given the decimation that has occured in
| other european nations.
|
| Here's a global tracker, for anyone who's interested:
|
| https://www.globalforestwatch.org/dashboards/global/
| _Microft wrote:
| Forest cover in Europe is increasing for a hundred years
| already if I recall correctly. Let me look that up.
|
| Edit:
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/04...
| renewiltord wrote:
| It's not about increasing or decreasing. It's about doing
| your share. Germany has half the forest cover percentage of
| Brazil. Either pay for the remainder to stay up or understand
| that as Germans burn fossil fuel to live in an inhospitable
| land (they will literally die if they don't fund the
| slaughter of Ukrainians) after they've clear cut their
| forests, others will not sacrifice without being paid or
| placed under duress.
|
| If you add x CO2 to the atmosphere and take out y, then
| others who are adding x'<x and taking out y'>y will not just
| listen to you.
| cersa8 wrote:
| "As detailed in a recent report by Nature Research, biomass
| loss increased 69% across Europe between 2016 and 2018, with
| large losses occurring in the Nordic and Baltic regions. In the
| past five years, the rate of deforestation in Estonia has risen
| 85% - a surge linked to a 25% decrease in bird populations. "
|
| We are on a fast track to deforest Europe in the name of CO2
| reduction [0]
|
| [0] https://www.friendsofeurope.org/insights/eus-biofuels-
| addict...
| ryder9 wrote:
| DennisP wrote:
| And sadly, not even the actuality of CO2 reduction. Burning
| those trees releases a lot of CO2, and has the same impact no
| matter where that CO2 came from.
|
| The claim of course is that the trees will grow back, but
| that takes decades, and emission reductions are very time-
| sensitive at this point due to feedback loops kicking in.
| layoric wrote:
| Yup, this is why the line of "net zero" and "offsets" is
| another delay/distraction tactic. This is still the crucial
| decade for GHG reductions and it seems like every country
| is just ignoring the starting gun instead of running.
| shanxS wrote:
| We are at brink of starting another World War. Climate change is
| only accelerating. Pandemic is not over yet.
|
| Is it only me or does future look gloomy? I'll set a low bar, as
| long as we don't kill enough skilled workers (pick your flavor of
| annihilation) we, humans, should be able to carry on trajectory
| of technical evolution even if world order changes in next few
| decades.
| sAbakumoff wrote:
| Right, we are doomed.
|
| Wake up and live your day like it's the last one.
|
| Be kind.
|
| Be generous.
|
| Give up your ambitions and plans.
|
| Just breathe every moment in and out and observe its beauty
| while you can.
| realvz wrote:
| Don't live like its your last day
|
| I think that's how Putin is living right now.
| javajosh wrote:
| No it's not just you and as a 40-something sci-fi fan I feel
| like I've neglected the basics to pursue a Star Trek-ish post
| singularity dream. My lesson? You can't ignore politics. Not
| ever. You can't ignore the environment. Not for a generation or
| three. Working towards a techno-utopia is fine, as a sideline.
| It cannot and should not be your primary focus, or the real
| world can and will turn to shit while you're not looking.
| munk-a wrote:
| The fact that vaccination rates remain as low as they are is
| one of the most convincing arguments I've ever heard that we,
| as humanity, have done messed up.
|
| Wars between autocrats and an inability to conceive of the
| damage your actions will take on long future generations (it's
| more immediate now but a lot of folks are still stuck in this
| mindset) all pale in comparison to "Hey, we just discovered
| that you'll die if you don't eat a baked potato in the next
| week" and getting the response "Hey - what's with all these
| free potatoes all the sudden, is the state of idaho lobbying
| the government? What is the hidden tuber agenda? My friend ate
| a turnip - that was enough for his grandfather! I've heard that
| potatoes can be used to power world-ending test executing AIs -
| I don't want that in my digestive system!"
| smallerfish wrote:
| Consider donating to Da Silva's campaign (if that is possible).
| If he wins, there's some chance of reversing Bolsonaro's recent
| neglect. He's by no means perfect, but he's certainly better on
| the environment (and forest policy) than the right.
|
| https://newint.org/features/2021/08/09/interview-luiz-inacio...
| [deleted]
| quirino wrote:
| Some context: Lula currently has 41% of voting intentions
| (against Bolsonaro's 26%) [1]. He was elected president twice,
| from 2003 to 2010.
|
| He's a very contested figure in Brazil. On the one hand, he
| earned popularity for creating social welfare programs such as
| Bolsa Familia [2]. On the other, he's been involved in various
| corruption scandals, including the Mensalao vote-buying scandal
| [3] and the Petrobras scandal [4], one of the biggest the world
| has seen.
|
| [1]
| https://www.em.com.br/app/noticia/politica/2022/02/21/intern...
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolsa_Fam%C3%ADlia
|
| [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensal%C3%A3o_scandal
|
| [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Car_Wash
| akemichan wrote:
| Oh come on, you can't expect any good from one of the most
| corrupt men of South America? Really?
|
| He's from the same corrupt political lineage as the Kirchner
| family in Argentina, do you really want to fund the people that
| only mange to bring misery to these countries?
|
| The interview you link is just our everyday populist discourse:
| show yourself aligned to whatever is the hop topic of the
| moment, get elected, do nothing about it and continue to use
| the power to finance your own corrupt agenda. Didn't work? No
| worries, you can always use the "heavy heritage" from Bolsonaro
| as an excuse.
| gberger wrote:
| > Da Silva
|
| He is known in Brazil as Lula. Only Brazilians can legally
| donate to political campaigns, so you might as well refer to
| the candidate as he is known among the possible donors.
| smallerfish wrote:
| Yeah, fair enough. Are there organizations who foreigners can
| legally donate to who work on get-out-the-vote or other voter
| base initiatives that would benefit him?
| jafoi wrote:
| blastonico wrote:
| Yes, donate your money to the man behind the world's largest
| corruption scandal. I'm sure your money will be in good hands.
| hehe
| jelliclesfarm wrote:
| reforestation and rewilding of the planet will require a vision
| of 'terraforming earth'. for every human habitat, farm, land used
| to sustain humanity, an equal acreage of land should be allowed
| go 'back to nature'.
|
| example: if someone were to build a factory on an acre of land or
| a dense residential neighbourhood of an acre or farming on an
| acre land..all these activities should be compensated by re-
| naturing land or conserving habitat elsewhere where human
| activities arent feasible.
|
| the problem with solutions like high density housing being touted
| as 'sustainable' is that they are truly sustainable only if the
| goal is to consume less. putting multiple high human density
| settlements next to each other and even looking at non habitable
| terrain to build homes and grow food is just daft because as
| super apex predators we need habitat and other species for our
| survival. if we cant eat or breathe or maintain air quality or
| bring down global temperature by 2 degrees, its the literal end
| of humanity.
|
| even if we manage to survive, depopulation is a guarantee. when
| the world has lesser humans, we need sufficient resources for
| them to thrive and survive. if we dwindle or become handicapped
| due to no foundational habitat to rely on, again it will just be
| a slower and more deprived extinction of the species.
|
| the replacement rate has been 2.2 forever. and we are living
| longer and our population has doubled in 40 years. population
| grows exponentially. resources don't. human needs also grows
| exponentially. thats the problem in the nutshell.
|
| it's already too late. the carrying capacity of the planet is
| likely 2-3 billion. we can comfortably exist at 1 billion. people
| will die. our descendants need to survive. creating more people
| will jeopradise the entire species and shrink resources to a
| dangerously low level.
|
| if our population continues to breed at the current rate, i would
| say that in 250-400 years, we might face the danger of
| extinction. but if we control population to 1/2 surviving child
| per woman, maybe in 150 years, we can stabilise population to
| carrying capacity.
|
| we must also need to find ways to preserve genetic material for
| diversity of our species. only recently we have been able to
| create pluripotent and embryonic cells from skin/dermal cells.
| ectogensis or artificial wombs will be useful to create not just
| carefully curated humans but also for cloning purposes. it is
| possible that we might become an immortal species. it is
| certainly within the realm of possibility.
|
| we could clone bodies to swap or replace failing organs or
| congenital illnesses. we could be our own children. we could have
| progeny with multiple partners and dna combinations.
|
| if religion would permit us. that is the only stumbling block i
| see for us to become immortals.
|
| because..if we could be immortal, we would be gods.
|
| but thats thinking too far ahead. first, survival. for that we
| need to reforest and rewild planet earth. starting with soil and
| then forests and then protect watersheds and marine ecology. the
| sooner we get started the better.
| kybernetyk wrote:
| Man, I was for seconds in a brainfart loop: "What the heck is
| Amazon Rainforest? Do they have a new service?"
| robotnikman wrote:
| I thought the same thing when I saw the title. The word Amazon
| is more associated with the company now than the rainforest.
| TangerineDream wrote:
| https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/03/amazon-rainforest-is...
| backtoyoujim wrote:
| This always reminds me of the fact that there are now no trees on
| Easter Island although there were trees on it. And that humans
| deforested it. And at some point the people there must have gone,
| "Well ... we might as well cut down that last one, too."
|
| Although I can easily imagine one neighbor cutting down the last
| tree on another neighbor's space out of spite.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Rich countries need to put up or shut up and negotiate to pay
| these countries to protect the Amazon.
| k__ wrote:
| Wasn't there a talk about the Amazon being used to rebuild
| after a nuclear war?
| sgift wrote:
| The problem is enforcement. Rich country gives non-rich country
| money. Non-rich country still destroys rain forest. What now?
| PradeetPatel wrote:
| Rich countries are not charities, such donation achieves no
| material nor political objectives.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| That's fine. Then rich westerners should not care when it
| gets destroyed.
| maronato wrote:
| Rich countries are already paying Brazil a lot of money - to
| destroy the rainforest. The cleared land is mostly used to
| produce meat, and Brazil is the largest meat exporter[1] in the
| world.
|
| [1]: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-world-s-largest-
| expo...
| Pooge wrote:
| We are cutting more and more trees, despite their well-
| established effectiveness at absorbing CO2[1]. What can we even
| do? We are pushing in the right direction for EVs - albeit 10
| years too late in my opinion, but we are hurting the planets in
| many more ways.
|
| We are polluting oceans, space, and now that we realize how big
| of a problem it is I begin to wonder why they even allowed it in
| the first place.
|
| [1]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change#Carbon_sequestr...
| PradeetPatel wrote:
| Instead of taking a defeatist attitude, think of it as a new
| challenge for mankind to tackle.
|
| What can we do? Education and awareness goes a long way, taking
| a "top down" and "bottom up" approach, we can ensure that key
| stakeholders are cognisant of the climate impact, as well as
| educating the populous on it.
| devops000 wrote:
| I didn't know Amazon owns an entire forest.
| waschl wrote:
| First thought: this is about some kind of Amazon product called
| rainforest
| forgetfulness wrote:
| Time to lay off the Hacker News it seems.
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