[HN Gopher] Dietary Fats and Cardiovascular Disease: An American...
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Dietary Fats and Cardiovascular Disease: An American Heart
Association Advisory
Author : jasonhansel
Score : 32 points
Date : 2022-03-07 21:15 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ahajournals.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ahajournals.org)
| TheMagicHorsey wrote:
| So sounds like we should be replacing saturated fats with
| polyunsaturated fats.
|
| Further googling gives:
|
| Polyunsaturated fats are found in high concentrations in
| Sunflower, corn, soybean, flaxseed oils, Walnuts, Fish.
|
| Canola oil - though higher in monounsaturated fat, it's also a
| good source of polyunsaturated fat.
| loudtieblahblah wrote:
| The AHA is passing off horrible, unhealthy information.
|
| Omega6s in high concentration are horrible for you and are
| inflammatory.
| rgrieselhuber wrote:
| I need a few downvotes, here's the best book on which oils are
| healthy vs not:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Nutrition-Your-Genes-Traditional...
| all2 wrote:
| Your gambit for downvotes appears to be successful.
| rgrieselhuber wrote:
| Never fails on this topic.
| tpush wrote:
| That book is written by someone advocating "seed oils" being
| extremely unhealthy for you, a position that is not held by
| the relevant scientific community; actually exactly the
| opposite is true.
| loudtieblahblah wrote:
| seed oils are unhealthy. and there are plenty of studies
| proving so.
| tpush wrote:
| No, this is simply not true.
| rgrieselhuber wrote:
| Well, as convincing as all your citations here may be,
| just going from first principles, I will continue to
| avoid the highly-processed, very profitable industrial
| waste known as 'seed oils.'
| loudtieblahblah wrote:
| Well you enjoy your Crisco, dude.
| uhtred wrote:
| I thought the Mediterranean diet was what we should all be
| eating, which would include a lot of olive oil. But that
| document suggests olive oil is high in monosaturated fats and
| thus not as healthy as canola oil (poly). Lolwut??
| loudtieblahblah wrote:
| The AHA is full of shit. Monosaturated fats and even
| saturated fats are endlessly better for you than Omega6
| PUFAs.
|
| Your daily fat intake should be more olive oil based, get
| some omega3s from fish 1-2x a week, and a moderate amount
| saturated fats.
|
| Omega6s are fine in the levels you get in Olive Oil (there's
| a little), or in nuts (macademia nuts being the lowest in
| omega6s) and say the odd avocado.
|
| To eat them in nthe levels that the West eats them in is
| toxic and there are endless studies about Omega6s being
| inflammatory and even contributing to insulin resistance in
| conjunction with sugar (yes.. a fat encouraging diabetes).
| TillE wrote:
| There's nothing surprising about canola oil being considered
| very healthy. Olive oil is also good.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Or maybe it is not really about the oil used, but other
| components in that diet...
|
| You need certain amount of fats for fat soluble nutrients.
| But I don't think lot makes too much sense compared to
| anything else.
| tpush wrote:
| Olive oil has the most research behind it, thus scientists
| feel most comfortable advocating for it; but that doesn't
| mean that something like canola/rapeseed oil isn't also
| similarly healthy for you, given its fatty acid ratios and
| polyphenol content.
| tux3 wrote:
| Mono-saturated doesn't make sense! Saturated means all the
| carbon atoms have as many hydrogen atoms as they can bear.
|
| Mono-unsaturated is off by one. It's generally regarded as
| more healthy, and olive oil is generally strongly recommended
| over saturated fats.
|
| Funnily enough, your body only knows how to synthesize
| saturated fats (palmitate), so your own natural fat is the
| "bad" one :)
| nradov wrote:
| There are serious health concerns with soybean oil.
|
| https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/americas-most-wi...
| shadowgovt wrote:
| Only if you're deeply concerned about the health of mice.
| tpush wrote:
| No (non-quack/grifter) scientist is advocating the position
| that soybean oil is generally (as opposed to in e.g.
| exorbitant amounts, but then that goes for any fat) unhealthy
| for humans; quite the opposite in fact.
| rileyphone wrote:
| Please point out the quackery/grifting in https://academic.
| oup.com/advances/article/11/6/1489/5867525?...
| all2 wrote:
| Note that soybean oil rewrites the genome of mice that consume
| it [0].
|
| [0]
| https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/01/200117080827.h...
| ch4s3 wrote:
| It changed gene EXPRESSION, not the underlying coding.
| enraged_camel wrote:
| It appears this is from 2017. It also doesn't seem to tell us
| what we didn't already know, right?
| uhtred wrote:
| I could drive myself crazy paying too much attention to this
| stuff. Eat a balanced diet, lots of plants, not too much added
| sugar, not too much saturated fat. Don't eat more than you need.
| Get some exercise.
| ccn0p wrote:
| This is from 2017 (although it appears to have some updates from
| 2020 with respect to the "Dietary Guidelines for Americans").
|
| Am I missing something? What's the significance now? Just "this
| is still important so let's repost it"?
| tpowell wrote:
| My dad (62) just had big heart attack in January. 100% blockage
| in a vein covering 60%+ of his heart. The surgeon who put his
| stent in called his EKG "impressive". He's never eaten very well
| or exercised much, and the Mediterranean diet was one of the ones
| they recommended. My mom (always reading health books) decided to
| go for an extreme no fat, no oil(!) diet instead, which is
| difficult in practice. His labs six weeks later showed a greater
| than 100pt drop in his cholesterol and 30lbs+ of weight loss.
| He's able to come off of his previous blood pressure medication,
| is sleeping better than ever and adding distance to his daily
| mile walk. Anyway, if you or someone you know is at high risk,
| turnarounds are absolutely possible with diet, and it might be
| worth further examining oils and "good fats" if your body doesn't
| process cholesterol well.
| KSS42 wrote:
| Were there any changes to his carb intake? Did he also reduce
| use of simple carbs and processed foods?
| colordrops wrote:
| There seems to be lots of conflicting info out there on "good"
| fats. I think everyone agrees that monounsaturated fats are
| relatively good (e.g. olive oil), but there are two camps for
| saturated vs polyunsaturated. Each thinks the other fat is the
| root of many health problems. I suspect that different industries
| are behind the apparent dichotomy rather than science.
| tpush wrote:
| No, the science is very very clear on that questions: it's
| absolutely in favor of poly-unsaturated fats. There is however
| a pocket of quacks and grifters on the internet concocting
| conspiracy theories about nutritional organizations/guidelines
| to sell books and whatnot.
| hollerith wrote:
| You mean quacks and grifters like Dale Bredesen, MD,
| researcher in Alzheimer's, who recommends everyone avoid oils
| except olive, avocado and coconut oil entirely from their
| diets because they promote chronic inflammation?
| voldacar wrote:
| So as americans have been eating more and more Omega-6 &
| PUFAs over the last century or so, they've been getting
| healthier and healthier, right?
|
| Maybe you can share some more predictions of your model.
| tpush wrote:
| No, that obviously doesn't follow.
|
| Current scientific thinking is that ultra-processed, ultra-
| palatable food high in both sugar and fat is likely
| responsible for the obesity epidemic. Of course, the fat in
| those foods is, most of the time, vegetable oils (because
| they're cheap & most of them are healthier than their
| animal counterparts).
|
| However, it absolutely doesn't follow that vegetable oil in
| particular is the driver here. If one switched all of the
| vegetable oil in ultra-processed, ultra-palatable food with
| animal fats the result will very likely be exactly the
| same, except for an increase in CVD due to the increased
| saturated fat content.
| colordrops wrote:
| Sounds like you are in one of the camps.
|
| If you are going to call out "the science" and speak
| disparagingly, you'd better provide references. Preferably
| comprehensive analysis, and not a few cherry picked studies.
| Otherwise you are just adding to the noise.
| tpush wrote:
| You are free to peruse the reports by pretty much every
| national nutrition & dietetics organization in the world;
| they already did the hard work of combing through and
| evaluating all relevant studies in that area.
|
| Any individual "assessment" of the scientific literature by
| someone who doesn't have scientific training in general or
| in that particular area is much more likely to result
| misleading or even dangerous conclusions.
| colordrops wrote:
| Are you saying you have scientific training in the area?
| Because you made a clear assessment.
| rileyphone wrote:
| More likely than something nefarious, I think it's more likely
| that both kinds of fat have differing adverse health effects.
| Saturated fats, as this paper suggests, increase LDL, which is
| bad for heart health. Polyunsaturated fats, especially when
| used as cooking oils, introduce free radicals that may cause a
| host of modern health issues, such as Alzheimer's, type 2
| diabetes, and general aging [0][1][2].
|
| The nature of agriculture has changed so much in the past 100
| years that it's clear we don't know most of the consequences.
| Studies like this one correlate saturated fat to adverse health
| effects, but as far as I can tell they don't control for the
| quality of saturated fat used, lumping them all into the same
| statistical category. However, there is a substantive
| difference on health effects, including cholesterol levels,
| from grass-fed vs grain-fed meat [3], as well as other animal
| products like eggs and butter. Even worse is the inclusion of
| plant derived saturated fats like palm oil, which besides
| raising LDL [4], is a third-world environmental disaster.
|
| That being said, my recommendation is to avoid fried things as
| much as possible, especially when you don't know what it was
| fried in and how long that oil stayed hot. Buy grass-fed beef,
| milk, butter, etc at the store. Replace vegetable oil with
| olive oil and avocado oil. I could be wrong about this, but it
| aligns with the heuristic of eating as our ancestors did before
| the rise of industrial agriculture, and it tastes better.
|
| [0] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Vegetable-
| Oil%3A-The-R... [1]
| https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/11/6/1489/5867525?...
| [2]
| https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/10715762.2010.4...
| [3]
| https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2...
| [4]
| https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/145/7/1549/4616780?login...
| TillE wrote:
| It's sad about coconut oil; coconut milk makes a really nice chia
| pudding, way better than the alternatives. It's the only bad part
| of my keto / low carb diet, otherwise my fat intake is
| overwhelmingly from olive oil.
| sk55 wrote:
| This article implies the opposite of the claims in this study.
|
| https://www.bulletproof.com/diet/healthy-eating/good-fats/
|
| "Saturated fat got some negative press back in the 1960s, when a
| scientist named Ancel Keys published research that claimed it
| caused heart disease. You're probably familiar with the theory --
| that the saturated fat in butter, red meat, and egg yolks drives
| up cholesterol, which builds up in the arteries, blocking the
| flow of blood to the heart. The study was later debunked -- it
| turned out Keys had manipulated the research to demonize fat.
| Later studies showed that saturated fat doesn't raise levels of
| bad cholesterol (LDL) in the body.[15][16] Yet saturated fat is
| still shaking off its reputation as an artery-clogger.
|
| The fact is, saturated fat is the most stable fat that there is.
| A stable fat is the least likely to be damaged by oxygen (aka
| oxidized). Oxidized fats accelerate aging, cause inflammation in
| the body, and make weaker cell membranes."
| bitshiftfaced wrote:
| From reference 16 (the link to 15 doesn't work):
|
| > Results: During 5-23 y of follow-up of 347,747 subjects,
| 11,006 developed CHD or stroke. Intake of saturated fat was not
| associated with an increased risk of CHD, stroke, or CVD.
|
| From OP's article:
|
| > Meta-analyses of prospective observational studies aiming to
| determine the effects on CVD of saturated fat that did not take
| into consideration the replacement macronutrient have
| mistakenly concluded that there was no significant effect of
| saturated fat intake on CVD risk.
|
| Their reference points to the same study (Patty W Siri-Tarino
| et al.) that the bulletproof article used. OP's article already
| acknowledges and disputes that information.
| loudtieblahblah wrote:
| The AHA is completely and utterly full of shit and just like most
| major bodies pushing nutritional standards, peddles some fairly
| dangerous information:
|
| https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/no-need-to...
|
| Seed-oils that wouldn't, largely, exist without industrial
| processes creating them as a byproduct (cottonseed oil, corn oil,
| soybean oil/Crisco, safflower oil, canola, etc.) are a HUGE
| driver of inflammation which is basically the root of every
| single disease - cardiac issues, cognition problems, neurological
| issues, autoimmune issues, cancer).
|
| And there's a lot of theory supporting evidence they explain why
| people in the 80s - who ate roughly the same amount of calories
| and had the same level of activity as people today... were on
| average, a lot lighter in weight.
|
| See: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/09/why-it-
| wa...
|
| See: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32008872/ and a whole ton
| more studies too:
| https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=omega-6+insulin+resistance&...
|
| We've been peddled industry lies since the 1950s, largely by
| coroporations who are founded by 7th Day Adventists ( who are
| vegetarian by faith and founded companies like Kellog), that
| Omega-6 PUFAs are healthy and it's the Saturated Fats (animal
| fats, largely) that are bad bad bad. Yet, since the 1950s ..our
| health keeps getting worse and worse while omega-6 consumption
| goes up and up and up..
|
| These companies have influenced nutritional boards and peddle the
| Ancel Keys, Seven Nations Study (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Countries_Study ) as the
| basis for Saturated Fats being the main driver behind CVD. But
| the study intentionally left off nations that would have
| radically changed the results and thus the conclusion. 50+ years
| of nutritional health has been guided by this b.s.
|
| Find me non-whole/fresh foods not jam packed with seed-oils. It's
| in marinades, tortilla shells, most bread, every body of packaged
| food you can imagine - chips, crackers, cookies, pre-made pies
| and cakes. Hell - i bought some salted pecans the other day from
| amazon and they were slathered in cottonseed oil for some reason.
| They're i n salad dressings, bbq sauces, wing sauces. It's even
| in dry-rubs for wings. Every. Thing.
|
| Mark my words - when history has had it's say, seed-oil
| delivering a level of omega-6s that the human body was never
| meant to endure long term, will go down as causing more suffering
| than sugar ever did, but made infinitely worse by the level of
| sugar we eat as well.
|
| The amount of omega6s we got from nuts or avocados or oats or
| whatever, was fine. Condensing it in the way we have and shoving
| it into everything has raised the titled the scale of consumption
| to toxic levels. And the AHA is Ok with this.
|
| The AHA, IMHO, is an organization with zero credibility when it
| comes to understanding human beings and lipids. They're a
| captured front for industry who would pass off Omega-6s as "heart
| healthy" and muddy the waters of the debate with shit quality
| studies.
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