[HN Gopher] Using email wrong
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Using email wrong
        
       Author : abahlo
       Score  : 91 points
       Date   : 2022-03-06 17:30 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (arne.me)
 (TXT) w3m dump (arne.me)
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | ChikkaChiChi wrote:
       | Why aren't there any email services that provide "Zero Trust"
       | email? An email firewall would solve so many problems:
       | 
       | - All email goes directly to a PROCESS folder - Emails you have
       | responded to or in your Contacts get processed by Rules/Enter
       | Inbox - Allow/Deny context for individual or entire domain -
       | Display sender domain prominently - Display TLD in alert before
       | following any clicked link - Block link clicking, images, etc.
       | from unapproved contacts
       | 
       | Now you are left with seeing only the things you approve of,
       | unless you make a willing choice to go and view the Wild West of
       | unapproved senders. Once trained, it's easy to see that you don't
       | often get unsolicited messages you are interested in.
       | 
       | This should be easy to do, but no provider I've used has made it
       | the default. I've had to cobble together my own solutions to make
       | this work.
        
         | nojito wrote:
         | Because this increases load on tech support for people who
         | thought they approved everything but didn't.
        
         | teh_klev wrote:
         | Isn't this what Hey (Basecamp folks) does with their "Screener"
         | feature?
         | 
         | https://www.hey.com/features/the-screener/
        
         | BeetleB wrote:
         | I did this as well:
         | http://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2018/Sep/solving-my-email-proble...
         | 
         | I believe hey.com provides this. Some years ago I did find a
         | few other obscure providers with this service. Here's another
         | one: https://www.spamarrest.com/features/
        
         | kwhitefoot wrote:
         | I have a rule in Thunderbird that puts all email that comes
         | from senders not in my contacts in a special folder.
        
           | neilv wrote:
           | Same here. For simplicity, incoming emails from senders that
           | aren't in my addressbook go automatically to the "Junk" IMAP
           | folder, together with what the email hoster's spam filter
           | moved there.
           | 
           | That rule has a few exclusions. For example, incoming emails
           | from a handful of particular universities and companies I
           | work with can go to "Inbox" because seeing them ASAP is
           | likely important.
        
       | throwaway984393 wrote:
       | I've been trying to use the "+" alias whenever I sign up for
       | literally anything. At least half of the e-mail validation
       | methods out there have no idea that "+" is a valid character.
       | Quite annoying. Luckily I use a custom domain and everything at
       | that domain forwards to my one user account, so I just use a new
       | email name for fields that don't support "+".
       | 
       | Fastmail has a feature to automatically sort mail with a "+" into
       | a dedicated folder, so you only need to add filter rules for
       | those addresses that don't support the "+" character.
       | 
       | You still can't ignore the filtered folders, though, as sometimes
       | you'll receive a notification out of the blue from a service or a
       | person that is time-sensitive. So I went back to one giant inbox
       | and I now sort mail that _doesn 't_ have a "+" sign into a
       | dedicated "Personal" folder. Have a few more filters for jobs,
       | receipts, and other emails that will reliably generate mail I
       | don't ever need to read.
        
       | k__ wrote:
       | I do inbox zero for many years now and almost get an aneurysma
       | when I see how some people use their inbox.
       | 
       | I filter emails like the article suggests, just a bit more
       | detail.
       | 
       | Newsletter, notification, and work are my main tags.
       | 
       | Then I have some specials like tax office, banks, crypto,
       | academia, etc.
       | 
       | Most of it gets archived right when it arrives.
       | 
       | At bussy times, I have like 20 mails in my inbox for 1-2 days,
       | but most of the time my inbox is empty or had under 5 mails.
       | 
       | I also treat these mails as tasks. Everything in my inbox needs
       | to be tended to, and when it's done I send a reply or archive it.
       | 
       | Works like a charm for over a decade now.
        
         | FabHK wrote:
         | Well, my inbox has tens of thousands of emails. Every January
         | or so, I put last year's messages into an archive for that
         | year. When I look for something, I use the search feature.
         | 
         | Works like a charm for over a decade now. (But I don't get
         | aneurysms when other people handle it differently.)
        
       | q-base wrote:
       | Another little note is that Fastmail also allows you to mark all
       | emails for a specific alias as "read".
       | 
       | I personally have a newsletters@example.com, buys@example.com and
       | signups@example.com all automatically marked as read.
        
       | Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
       | Email is just a messaging service. Whatever messaging service you
       | use, the core is the same: people send you messages you need to
       | act upon. Chat apps are no different from email in this regard,
       | they just mask the problem of a non-zero inbox by merging all
       | messages from one sender into a single thread. This way,
       | important things you'd want to keep unread in email sinks into
       | oblivion until you forget about it. (And feel good like you did
       | everything you had to)
        
         | combatentropy wrote:
         | You just made me realize that email would look better if it
         | grouped messages by sender instead of just by subject.
         | 
         | It was a huge step forward for me when I switched from Outlook
         | to GMail. Outlook originally did not group emails at all. Each
         | message was a line item on its own, sorted by date sent. So
         | even individual replies back and forth were scattered across my
         | Inbox. Then GMail grouped all replies into a single line item,
         | as a "thread" or "conversation", which I could then expand.
         | Eventually Outlook followed suit, although at first
         | imperfectly. It grouped by Subject instead of the more accurate
         | email header, Message-ID. (Actually I believe this technique
         | predates GMail, at least in one text-based email reader, Mutt.)
         | 
         | I think email should take this one step further, and group
         | messages first of all by sender, then by thread.
         | sender (or recipient group for emails with more than one
         | recipient, like SMS clients do)       |- thread          |-
         | message
         | 
         | This would help with companies that send you many messages,
         | whether it's spam or just receipts and other notices. But it
         | would still not be bad for emails from individuals too. Even
         | though someone may write you many emails about many different
         | things, each with their own Subject, it still makes sense to
         | group them. That mimics real life, where a real person's many
         | conversations that they have with you are still visually
         | grouped into one person, one organic body, in your mind.
         | 
         | Facebook would also be better this way. Collapse posts by
         | poster, so that people who post 5 times a day don't take up
         | more of your news feed than those who post just once every now
         | and then.
        
           | Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
           | I was a heavy email user before Gmail advent, and was always
           | using folders in my email clients to do just that. For me it
           | turned out that most emails work better the gmail way. I'd
           | benefit from a simple option to group all messages from/to a
           | specific sender into one thread though
        
       | stevage wrote:
       | The problem with adopting a strategy like that is it would take
       | months or years to make a meaningful difference, unless you
       | actually went back and switched over all the services you've
       | subscribed to, to these new accounts.
        
       | rchowe wrote:
       | Isn't this kind of email easy to classify (on a large scale)?
       | Gmail has a similar inbox system in its web reader.
        
         | makach wrote:
         | yes. this article reads like an ad.
        
           | Haegin wrote:
           | What for? Hey where the author got the idea from? The author
           | doesn't use it. Fastmail? The author's method works with any
           | mail service that supports custom domains and email aliases.
           | Seems a stretch to call it an ad when it's not clear what
           | they're promoting.
        
             | amazing_stories wrote:
             | My first impression was also that this was an ad for Hey.
             | Maybe that's not what the author intended, but it reads
             | that way to me and it's a bad first impression.
        
           | igetspam wrote:
           | But a bad one with no case for unique value being made.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | Yeah, the tabs on my personal Gmail work pretty well in keeping
         | down the clutter. Very little that ends up in Promotions needs
         | to get looked at and I just delete the whole thing
         | periodically. Updates grabs most of the rest.
         | 
         | I actually used to use a separate email address at Yahoo to
         | handle all the ecommerce cruft but I find that Google does a
         | good enough job of organizing that I don't bother any longer.
         | 
         | It's also not a bad idea to go on an unsubscribe mission every
         | now and then.
        
         | sp332 wrote:
         | It doesn't work that well. Why ask a computer to guess what I
         | want when I could just tell it?
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | I do unsubscribe to things now and then and I find Gmail does
           | a pretty job of keeping the large number of notices of sales,
           | new products, etc. separated from my main inbox. And although
           | I ignore most of this I do find some useful information now
           | and then.
        
       | mro_name wrote:
       | it's essentially automated filtering by separate email addresses
       | for human, papertrail and newsfeed, right?
       | 
       | Resonates quite a lot more than one per sender as I tried for
       | some time.
        
       | BeetleB wrote:
       | The problem with this approach is that if any service/spambot
       | does, somehow, get your personal email, you're stuck with crap.
       | 
       | The better solution is to make a whitelist, and only let that in.
       | Then have a convenient means to let people put themselves on your
       | whitelist. And an even easier way to kick them off your
       | whitelist.
       | 
       | One solution: http://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2018/Sep/solving-my-
       | email-proble...
       | 
       | HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18100807
        
         | wrycoder wrote:
         | Yes, I use the Fastmail VIP feature for this. I makes a vast
         | difference.
         | 
         | I've got tens of thousands of emails in my inbox, even after
         | filtering, and, at my age, I simply don't want to spend an hour
         | a day pawing over email. I just let it recede into the past. If
         | someone pings me about something I "missed", I can always dig
         | up their email.
         | 
         | I have no VIP email in my inbox.
        
       | JFKKFJ wrote:
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | > Inbox -- This is where all emails sent by humans end up. That's
       | it.
       | 
       | How do you filter on this? Do you use a CAPTCHA?
        
         | abahlo wrote:
         | No, it's not perfect -- but if something slips through, I'll
         | sort it out manually.
        
         | 300bps wrote:
         | He has separate email addresses on a custom domain.
         | 
         | He then gives one of those separate emails to humans.
         | 
         | Companies he orders from gets another email address.
         | 
         | Social media companies get another one. Etc.
        
         | tdubhro1 wrote:
         | - a while back I tried to apply this principle in my gmail -
         | filter everything not from a human out of my inbox using rules
         | and filters (filtering anything with the word "unsubscribe"
         | works well until someone forwards a thread to you that started
         | with an email from a service).
         | 
         | It is a little frustrating though, I'm sure gmail and most
         | modern email services could do a very good job on a filter like
         | this if they tried.
        
         | micromacrofoot wrote:
         | I use a separate address that I only give to people. Never use
         | it for forms or sign-ins, and if anything marketing-related
         | makes it there it's instantly spamboxed.
        
       | tonymet wrote:
       | Another option is "inbox" , "p0", "p1", "p2 . inbox & p0 you
       | check once per hour, p1 once a day and p2 twice a week.
       | 
       | Instead of categories, assign an attention budget.
        
       | not2b wrote:
       | Some spammish senders will strip the + because they know people
       | use it to segregate their mail into different buckets and they
       | don't want this.
        
         | B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
         | And some clueless bigcorps just choke on email addresses with +
        
         | yosito wrote:
         | With many email services, you can set up unlimited aliases for
         | your own domain. I do this with Fastmail. No need for the +
        
           | orev wrote:
           | Does this really need to be said in 2022? The advent of plus
           | addressing was more or less driven because techies were
           | already able to make custom addresses for their domain, and
           | the + could be a standard thing that non-techies could use
           | with their basic email account without needing to reconfigure
           | things on the backend, or use a messy catch-all account.
        
             | latexr wrote:
             | > Does this really need to be said in 2022?
             | 
             | Something you have known for years may be new to someone
             | else. Relevant XCKD: https://xkcd.com/1053/
        
           | greenyoda wrote:
           | You don't even need to provide your own domain - Fastmail
           | gives you a subdomain for free. For example, if your Fastmail
           | address is myname@fastmail.com, then
           | any_address@myname.fastmail.com will get to you.
        
         | lahvak wrote:
         | Which means their email will go straight into the trash.
        
       | micah94 wrote:
       | Anyone have a suggestion for those sites that don't allow + or %
       | in the email address? This is always the hangup for me when I try
       | to organize like this.
        
         | Saris wrote:
         | I use a catchall on my domain, and every site gets its own
         | email when I sign up.
        
         | happycrappy wrote:
         | Custom domain + cloudflare email forwarding service
         | 
         | E.g.:
         | 
         | * inbox@custom.me -> me+inbox@gmail.com
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | Then you have to setup a more complicated filter on the client
         | side based on sender, etc.
        
           | Kwpolska wrote:
           | And if you're getting enough mail from an organization to
           | matter (and to be annoying in your inbox), then the cost of
           | setting up a filter is tiny.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | g8oz wrote:
         | Outlook.com let's you make aliases and you can direct their
         | messages into a folder. I.e myshopping123@outlook.com
        
         | 3np wrote:
         | You can choose some other character for the same purpose? Like
         | .-_!
         | 
         | (Assuming you are using a solution that gives you that level of
         | control)
        
       | thenerdhead wrote:
       | Another tip is that for your inbox (human sent email), treat it
       | as "other people's todo lists". This means you put yourself first
       | at work before you get to other people's work. Your strategy may
       | vary depending on your organization.
       | 
       | When I changed my perspective on email in this light, I started
       | to really see who were the delegators and who were the experts.
       | As you might imagine, the delegators don't typically do much and
       | the experts are usually doing it all.
       | 
       | You can then strategically ignore email and when experts come
       | asking for help, you know it's something impactful. Same applies
       | for delegators, but you typically view them as lower priority as
       | they usually aren't impactful at all from your perspective.
        
         | samstave wrote:
         | In defense as a delegator ;
         | 
         | ---
         | 
         | I have, through my career, managed, directed, employed,
         | mentored MANY people that were WAY smarter than I am (Looking
         | at you JDB) -- but I had "mortar skills" -- oor as i call them
         | "Lego Skills"
         | 
         | I am talented in bringing disparate engineering disciplines
         | together.
         | 
         | Ill give you a real world example ;
         | 
         | Brocade.
         | 
         | I was the TPM on the build of their new HQ in San Jose, I was
         | responsible for literally the entire go-live of collapsing all
         | offices and data-centers down to the new HQ (I have dont this
         | with other companies, including ILM, Facebook, Lockheed)
         | 
         | Its kinda my jam....
         | 
         | anyway, there were teams Server, storage, network, app, HR,
         | blah blah not to mention the relocation of ~60,000 devices from
         | colos in the valley to the new 4-storey DC building made at
         | Brocade's HQ campus...
         | 
         | I was brought in because I knew how to gather the data req'd to
         | inform an actual migration strategy.
         | 
         | ---
         | 
         | I met with each SME of every discipline, asked them of their
         | needs, inputs, workproduct, team, etc...
         | 
         | I did this with each SME for each discipline separately.
         | 
         | I then formed a plan of action, both tactical and hypothetical.
         | 
         | Once I had a plan together, held a meeting and showed the
         | cohesive plan, with every teams dependencies and I threw that
         | up on the wall and had all the SMEs in a meeting and asked them
         | 
         |  _" Tell me what is wrong with this plan. Show me any
         | deficiencies that your team may suffer, and what is also needed
         | from the other teams to make YOUR team successful. Throw as
         | many darts as you can at THE PROBLEM and not the people on the
         | other team."_
         | 
         | A flawless move of ~4,000 employees and ~60K devices to a new
         | colo with ZERO downtime to regular employees.
         | 
         | ---
         | 
         | So, just know that just because youre not an SME in a deep
         | subject, delegators have value. In my case : I was not an
         | expert in ANY of their fields, but I knew how to tie a team
         | together in a way that was less divisive. Super successful and
         | I allowed each SME to air their project issues and requirements
         | in private, so as to keep emotions to a min. Esp considering
         | prior to my joining the project, they had not been talking
         | cross-teams at all.
         | 
         | Delegation is a skill -- you need to know enough about the
         | problem (both project and team issues) to be effective, and
         | really what it comes down to, is ensuring that your SME stays
         | focused on being an SME for [SUBJECT] and remove the Human
         | Emotional friction that can happen on teams of really smart
         | people.
        
         | atoav wrote:
         | Read and flag (Thunderbird: numberkeys 1 to 5).
         | 
         | Only answer directly if it really burns (aka you are
         | responsible) or it is answered in a sentence.
         | 
         | All other things come later.
        
         | jrm4 wrote:
         | 100% -- This is the only thing from GTD that's stuck with me
         | very well; Strongly separate your emails and texts from your
         | own "inbox of stuff to do." Filtering one to the other AND NOT
         | RESPONDING should be a discrete, extremely conscious, step in
         | your flow -- only stopping if it fits the 5 minute rule.
        
       | user_named wrote:
       | Outlook has aliases. I sign up for non-important stuff like
       | newsletters with an alias, which filters into its own folder.
        
       | kosasbest wrote:
       | > I'm using Fastmail with a custom domain and have aliases with
       | rules for the different destinations, for example
       | papertrail@example.org or newsfeed@example.org
       | 
       | I want to try the custom domain thing eventually, but will have
       | to be careful not to let my domain get into the wrong hands. So I
       | will be turning on 2FA on my registrar, and stay away from ccTLDs
       | that have reputation issues (like .ru for example). Also I will
       | ensure the domain keeps getting renewed. The only caveat is if I
       | DIE someone can reclaim my domain and get access to all my
       | accounts, which is worrying.
        
         | throwaway984393 wrote:
         | Maybe you can put in your will to have a lawyer go through and
         | delete all your old accounts? Would be useful for a living will
         | too; if you're in a coma for 10+ years, the domain would lapse
         | then too.
        
         | gumby wrote:
         | > The only caveat is if I DIE someone can reclaim my domain and
         | get access to all my accounts, which is worrying.
         | 
         | Nobody can hurt you once you are dead.
        
         | timwis wrote:
         | I've been doing this for nearly 15 years and haven't died.
        
           | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
           | This comment would be extra creepy if you had.
        
         | tephra wrote:
         | You might want to lock into using a registry that supports
         | "registrar lock" as well. That will protect you from unwanted
         | changes and deletions.
        
         | sircastor wrote:
         | After hearing horror stories about Google disabling people's
         | accounts and them losing everything, I've started to do this. I
         | still use gmail as a client, and I haven't moved everything
         | over, but I feel more comfortable about it all. The next ate
         | (for me) is to start paying for my domain 10 years at a time.
        
         | kelnos wrote:
         | I've been doing this for 10 or so years with no problem. I have
         | a .org domain, auto renewal is set up, and I've enabled all
         | email notifications around domain status with my registrar
         | (which, yes, has 2FA enabled).
         | 
         | Hadn't thought about what happens to this setup when I die.
         | Probably the simplest thing to do is give someone I trust
         | access to the account. Alternatively I wonder if there's a way
         | to keep credentials in escrow, which can only be legally
         | released to a named beneficiary on death.
        
       | civilized wrote:
       | Wait wait slow down.
       | 
       | I can sign up for services with plus signs and use the plus signs
       | to do things? Does this work on Gmail? What other services does
       | it work on?
       | 
       | Is this a well-known fact???
       | 
       | I've never heard of this. My mind is about to blow here.
       | 
       | I worry that bad actors might strip the plus parts out, but in a
       | basically cooperative ecosystem, this seems like a really big
       | deal.
        
         | micromacrofoot wrote:
         | It works on most email services. Some bad actors (including
         | large corporations) do strip the plus signs out (or don't
         | accept them to begin with) but it's rare for anyone to bother.
         | 
         | I typically use the name of the service after the plus, because
         | it gives an added bonus of knowing who is selling my address.
        
         | denton-scratch wrote:
         | Support for plus addressing mainly depends on the online
         | service you're signing up with. Your mail provider almost
         | certainly supports it; their business is email. But many
         | webservers have idiosyncratic notions about how to validate an
         | email address (they could be using any damn library, and their
         | business isn't handling email).
         | 
         | Most websites seem to accept plus addressing. But I haven't
         | encountered an online banking service, for example, that
         | accepts plus addressing.
         | 
         | Incidentally, it doesn't have to be a plus sign; other symbols
         | can be used.
        
         | kelnos wrote:
         | Yes. Any email service should allow it, as it's standardized
         | and very old.
         | 
         | However, some services that you sign up for might reject email
         | addresses with + signs in them.
         | 
         | With Gmail, one thing you can do is insert a period anywhere
         | you want in your email address. For some reason they decided to
         | ignore that character when matching incoming email to an
         | account. That behavior isn't standard, but services you sign up
         | for should never have a problem with it.
        
           | hk__2 wrote:
           | > Yes. Any email service should allow it, as it's
           | standardized and very old.
           | 
           | As far as I know it's not standardized at all; it's not in
           | the SMTP spec. It's actually annoying that some people assume
           | this is standard because they can break functionality, like
           | assuming foo+bar@ is the same person as foo+qux@ when it's
           | not guaranteed to be.
        
             | stonogo wrote:
             | It's not in the SMTP spec because SMTP doesn't need to know
             | about it. Your objection is correct but in fact that's the
             | desireable behavior -- senders _can 't_ assume that foo+bar
             | and foo+qux are the same person. If they _could_ make that
             | assumption, subaddressing would be defeated as a useful
             | filter signal. As it is, it 's not just plus signs -- qmail
             | has been using '-' as the subadress separator for decades.
             | 
             | Subaddressing is standardized in RFC 5233 as a filtering
             | signal.
        
         | gweinberg wrote:
         | On gmail and fastmail and maybe some other providers, you can
         | put a plus sign before the at sign, and the plus and anything
         | in between are stripped out so you can effectively have
         | infinite email addresses.
         | 
         | Not all providers do this, but it's easy enough to check if
         | yours does, just send an email to yourself.
        
           | yosito wrote:
           | Note, on gmail you can't filter emails based on the +
        
             | nextos wrote:
             | And some services refuse to accept these addresses.
             | 
             | I've found old school approaches such as
             | https://www.spamgourmet.com/index.pl to solve this better.
        
             | Haegin wrote:
             | I've definitely had filters set up based on this in the
             | past. Did they change it in the last few years?
        
         | frankwiles wrote:
         | Yes, but not that well known. It's part of the SMTP spec.
        
           | TimWolla wrote:
           | It's not part of the SMTP spec. SMTP treats the local part as
           | an opaque identifier. It's somewhat common though and RFC
           | 5233 extends the sieve filtering language to support it:
           | https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc5233
        
         | sp332 wrote:
         | A more interesting thing with Gmail is that it ignores dots.
         | Foo@gmail.com is the same as f.oo or f.o.o! That's less common
         | behavior, so it's less common for spammers to strip out.
        
         | schrectacular wrote:
         | Yes and yes.
        
         | 3np wrote:
         | Yup.
         | 
         | Another tidbit (and this one is gmail-specific): dots are
         | insignificant. Mail sent to x.y@gmail.com will arrive at
         | xy@gmail.com
        
       | 300bps wrote:
       | With over 121,000 unread emails in my "everything" gmail account
       | I've come to the same conclusion.
       | 
       | It only becomes a major issue when I want to find an email from a
       | real person. It's amazing - every marketing email seems to come
       | up on every search I do almost like they're keyword stuffing.
       | 
       | If there's a better way to do it that doesn't involve obsessive
       | inbox 0 protocol but what the OP describes is what I've mentally
       | decided to do as well.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | One thing I do is that if something comes in that I think I
         | might want to refer to at some point, I'll give it an &archive
         | label. (I used to have a more elaborate set of labels but these
         | days I mostly just throw most things in one place and rely on
         | search for the rest). And then just periodically delete older
         | stuff that hasn't been files--especially if it's unread. I
         | might take some time to skim things to see if there's anything
         | I want to save.
        
       | ouid wrote:
       | If you're using gmail, just mark everything that isn't sent by a
       | human as spam.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | So you mark receipts from purchases, travel confirmations, and
         | newsletters you signed up for at some point as spam? Honestly,
         | if it's from a legit organization, it should be just as easy to
         | unsubscribe from any periodic mailing.
        
           | Haegin wrote:
           | I'm not the person you replied to but I do use the spam
           | button for any unwanted emails I get. If it's a receipt or a
           | shipping notification then no worries, thanks for letting me
           | know but if you think me signing up for your service or
           | buying something from you is me opting in to your email
           | marketing then you're mistaken and to the spam box you'll go.
        
             | n42 wrote:
             | yes, and on my work email, this also includes. cold emails
             | from recruiters and sales people.
        
               | ghaff wrote:
               | It's actually far worse on my work email. I attend a lot
               | of events (whether virtual or in-person), I download a
               | fair number of docs some of which are gated, etc. The
               | bottom line is that I get on a lot of email lists. Some
               | I'm actually interested in but I also get a lot from
               | someone who scanned me at a booth when I stopped to ask a
               | question and so forth. The reality is that channels like
               | these are where a B2B company gets a lot of their leads.
        
       | sixhobbits wrote:
       | I don't have all the aliases but I agree that inbox is for human
       | emails and stuff that needs important/urgent action. Everything
       | else gets unsubscribed or a custom gmail filter + label.
        
       | timwis wrote:
       | But if you sign up for services with papertrail@, what about when
       | that service sends you something you need to take action on?
       | (Update payment details, etc) Wouldn't you miss it?
        
         | newaccount74 wrote:
         | Yeah, that method won't work. Almost every service that I use
         | sends all 3 types of emails: paper trail, news, and
         | occasionally something important.
         | 
         | My approach is to make custom rules for the most frequent
         | emails based on sender and subject (the paper trail type emails
         | often have predictable subjects). What's left is between 5 and
         | 10 emails a day that I can sort manually.
        
           | nicoburns wrote:
           | I typically just unsubscribe from the news.
        
           | timwis wrote:
           | I do that too, but it ends up being an evergreen chore to
           | setup new rules and every once in a while I give up :/
        
       | jrm4 wrote:
       | Interesting. I just find it pretty easy to just never delete and
       | use "new." If something's super spammy I'll filter for it, of
       | course, but even dividing "papertrail" and "humans" seems like an
       | extra step I don't need.*
       | 
       | *note, this requires a speedy client where you can see a good
       | number of subject lines and main body at the same time and just
       | kind of arrow down quickly; I switch variously between mutt and
       | thunderbird. I don't know how people deal with stupid bloated
       | behemoths like today's Outlook.
        
         | denton-scratch wrote:
         | I've been using Thunderbird since early 2000's. I used to run
         | my own mailserver; stuff happened, and I decided to switch over
         | to my ISPs mail offering (which is the same as what I ran:
         | Postfix, Dovecot, Spamassassin, and Squirrelmail/Roundcube if I
         | need it).
         | 
         | They also provide a Sieve server. This is important.
         | 
         | If you use built-in Thunderbird filtering, then it only runs
         | when mail is delivered to Thunderbird; and unless all your
         | clients have the same filtering rules, then things could get
         | messy. With Sieve, the filtering occurs on the delivery server;
         | so it happens before you start your client.
         | 
         | If you use a webmail service with filtering, that also occurs
         | on delivery, and server-side. But Sieve is great if you want to
         | run a proper mail client.
         | 
         | The Sieve rules notation is a pain; but you can use Roundcube
         | as a Sieve rules editor - it provides a nice interactive form-
         | based rules editor, so you don't have to remember the rules
         | syntax.
        
           | jrm4 wrote:
           | Funny, you're describing things that I've tried to do in the
           | past "in theory," but after it all, I've found my own brain-
           | filtering (on a big monitor screen) to be sufficient. Namely,
           | even if it's like 40-50 emails a day, with maybe 2-3 from
           | humans, it's not bad when in Thunderbird I'm not preloading
           | html/javascript and I can see all the subject lines. I can
           | just arrow down the "news" pretty fast.
        
       | H8crilA wrote:
       | The most important concept when it comes to email is _email
       | bankruptcy_.
       | 
       | Too many emails? Even in the "from a human, directly to me"
       | category? Select all, mark as read, archive. If it's important
       | enough it will come back.
        
         | gkop wrote:
         | Do we need to batch notify all senders that we are doing this?
         | 
         | How often are we allowed to do this before it becomes rude?
        
       | nunez wrote:
       | I know none of y'all asked, but absolutely love my email system.
       | 
       | My inbox is my to-do list. If there is an email there, a follow-
       | up action is required. This means that I'm militant about
       | archiving any email that doesn't need to be in my inbox. I've
       | been doing this for at least ten years.
       | 
       | Since last year, I also use Abine's Blur for creating virtual
       | disposable email addresses. (Basically iCloud Hidden Emails
       | before it was cool.) these email addresses forward to my actual
       | email addresses and can be replied to. Everything that asks for
       | emails that could become noisy subscriptions gets a Blur email.
       | If the emails get insanely spammy, I delete the email address.
       | Spam over.
       | 
       | I also have a few email aliases for things like bills, receipts,
       | invoices, etc. Since approx 2.5 years ago, these forward to an
       | email that forwards those emails to Expensify. I also have spend
       | alerts set up with all of my credit card companies and bank
       | accounts, so anything I don't get receipts for also gets sent to
       | Expensify. Subsequently, I have a detailed record of all of my
       | budgeted and unbudgeted expenses broken up by week.
        
         | ydant wrote:
         | That inbox approach is my approach as well. I've tried many
         | times to shift to an actual TODO list - with the idea that
         | using my inbox as a TODO list means extra overhead - every time
         | I open my email I'm having to re-process my TODO list.
         | 
         | But it never works for me. I keep coming back to Inbox having
         | three priorities:                 - unread (must be triaged
         | immediately - scanned then archived, starred, or left as normal
         | read)       - starred       - read
         | 
         | Although it's really two, because starred/read don't really
         | have much difference in priority for me.
         | 
         | Most of the time I sit at somewhere between 0-5 emails. If I'm
         | having difficulties or overwhelmed, that number may grow
         | substantially temporarily.
        
           | jbaber wrote:
           | Using mutt, I can edit e-mails in my Inbox. I sent one to
           | myself with the subject "TODO" that I keep re-editing with
           | any todo-list style stuff. It's been sitting in my inbox for
           | a few months.
        
       | tpoacher wrote:
       | What pisses me off (and prevents me from using my own version of
       | the system effectively proposed in the article) is companies that
       | send you both actionable _and_ a boatload of spammy emails via
       | the same email address.
       | 
       | Github "confirmatory 2fa" is an example. If I could, I'd turn it
       | off, but there's no option for that (There's only an option to
       | turn it "fully" on. hah!).
       | 
       | I had been redirecting github emails to my preferred folders, but
       | then when the 2fa email came up, I had to spend 5 minutes
       | tracking it down, because only the inbox sends notifications on
       | my phone. So I reluctantly removed the rules, and now it litters
       | my inbox by design.
       | 
       | I hate 2fa with a passion.
        
         | gertlex wrote:
         | I have the same general opinion around "categories of email
         | noise from a company", but I find Github is possibly the best
         | one I know of. It's not perfect. Jira is an example of a bad
         | one (while also having a high volume of email if you set it up
         | for such).
         | 
         | Specifically, for any who haven't noticed, there are several
         | additional email addresses in most emails you'll receive if
         | you're watching Github Repos, and you can filter on these:
         | 
         | https://docs.github.com/en/account-and-profile/managing-subs...
         | 
         | So I have a series of filters for several of those emails, like
         | "If 'mentions' in CC'd put in important folder", plus some
         | filters for "If '[reponame]' in title, put in dedicated
         | folder". And then all other github emails go to some other
         | folder, and never my inbox. (That all said, I may be completely
         | misunderstanding you; as I don't think I deal with
         | "comfirmatory 2fa emails)
        
         | hombre_fatal wrote:
         | Same with phone notifications.
         | 
         | You enable notifications from Uber/UberEats/whatever because
         | it's useful to get notifications like "the driver is on the
         | way", "the driver is here". But then they also send you spam
         | notifications.
         | 
         | And at least on iPhone, I don't know of a fast way to toggle
         | notifications for a given app. Endless-scrolling the list of
         | all apps in the notifications config menu is annoying enough to
         | where I never bother.
         | 
         | My carrier (Telcel MX) does this too. They send important
         | messages about my subscription on the same channel they spam me
         | with offers. They even send me warnings about phishing attacks
         | from fake Telcel ads. Well, maybe people wouldn't be so
         | susceptible to it if you didn't train them to get used to ad
         | spam.
        
           | FabHK wrote:
           | > on iPhone, I don't know of a fast way to toggle
           | notifications for a given app.
           | 
           | In the notification screen, drag the notification left and
           | hit "Options". It'll give you options to mute, turn off, or
           | fine-tune the settings.
        
           | pimlottc wrote:
           | Next time you get a notification from a sender you want to
           | silence, swipe left on the notification, then tap "manage
           | notifications". That should take you straight to the
           | notification settings for the specific app.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | ImaCake wrote:
         | An Australian bank I used has used their 2FA phone number to
         | send me marketing messages about loans. I was absolutely
         | furious about it. 2FA numbers should not be used for your
         | marketing team's sleazy trash.
        
         | freedomben wrote:
         | I think if you set up TOTP the emails will stop.
        
       | mcs_ wrote:
       | Disclaimer, 26 years using emails.
       | 
       | What I love about emails is that no ads are pushed into it, one
       | of the few places where you can read information without
       | Javascript and decide when and if to load external content.
       | 
       | I think innovations should be welcome, but they should have their
       | own name and avoid considering a legacy system wrong by default.
       | 
       | Reinvent the wheel is hard,however I hope to see something great
       | in the future (gpg for everyone for example).
        
         | nelsondev wrote:
         | Did you read the linked article? It's not proposing a new tool,
         | just using rules/filtering to categorize into inbox (humans),
         | paper trail, news letters.
        
           | brightball wrote:
           | That's basically what Hey.com does. Inbox, Newsfeed and
           | Receipts.
        
             | neilparikh wrote:
             | Yup, the article mentions that the author was inspired by
             | Hey.com
        
         | danuker wrote:
         | > no ads are pushed into it
         | 
         | Believe it or not, I receive more spam than non-spam email each
         | month.
        
           | bbarnett wrote:
           | Wanted to downvote, but instead I'll reply by saying,
           | obviously parent was speaking of ads in a valid message, not
           | spam.
        
             | InGoodFaith wrote:
             | Nowadays when signing up for valid services, some don't let
             | you opt-out of the marketing emails until much later in the
             | flow; the worst offenders ignore your opting out options by
             | including a new category of marketing-type emails every
             | couple of months that you have to go in and untick.
             | 
             | Wouldn't that be classified as spammy ads from a valid
             | message (when done using dark patterns with no one-click
             | unsubscribe option)?
        
               | nicoburns wrote:
               | I've actually had decent experiences in the last few
               | years. The vast majority of services have a clear opt-out
               | link, and pretty much everything else has an unsubscribe
               | link in the emails that works. I think legit senders are
               | terrified of getting spam blacklisted, so they have to
               | offer than option.
               | 
               | The only exception I found was the democratic party
               | mailing list. No idea how I even ended up on that as I
               | don't live in the US, but NEVER give them your real/main
               | email address. The spam is relentless and impossible to
               | block because they are continually setting up new domain
               | names.
        
       | charles_f wrote:
       | I've been doing the same for a bit over two years, but using the
       | sender's email address and a screening process instrumented with
       | some app I wrote (Screenr[1], shameless plug). That gives you
       | something similar to the process in Hey.
       | 
       | I don't think I'm using email wrong.
       | 
       | Unrelated: what is controversial about Basecamp?
       | 
       | [1]https://github.com/cfe84/screenr/
        
         | agucova wrote:
         | The controversial part may be a reference to Basecamp's last
         | year's ban on "societal and political discussions" at work,
         | which was apparently motivated by the desire to end internal
         | discussions about the company itself [1].
         | 
         | [1]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/27/22406673/basecamp-
         | politic...
        
         | rambambram wrote:
         | Indeed, what is controversial about Basecamp? Have been reading
         | their blog (and now blogs) for over 15 years. I can't speak as
         | a customer - or as an employee - but they seem to be one of the
         | most humane companies I've come across.
        
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