[HN Gopher] GE won't let me use convection roast on my new oven ...
___________________________________________________________________
GE won't let me use convection roast on my new oven without
connecting to WiFi
Author : ilamont
Score : 255 points
Date : 2022-03-05 18:02 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (twitter.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (twitter.com)
| oh_sigh wrote:
| So if you click the "dismiss" button that is clearly labeled on
| the message, you still can't use the oven?
| capcor wrote:
| bombcar wrote:
| You can't use the "enhanced features" one of which apparently
| is convection.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Usually this is because the product was rushed out of the circuit
| board factory in China months ago with very barebones firmware.
|
| At the time this firmware was made, they probably hadn't even
| _built_ the convection roast mode.
|
| It needs WiFi to update the firmware to one which hopefully does
| perform as promised. After that you can probably disconnect the
| WiFi again.
| neoglow wrote:
| I find it hard to call this a good argument for why this is. If
| an appliance does not work out of the box, it is not finished
| and not ready to ship to customers.
|
| The game industry does this, which is crap, but appliances are
| people use to cook their meals and should not be unfinished.
|
| If you are right, it should be illegal.
| londons_explore wrote:
| In a world of investors demanding large percentage returns on
| their investments, investing money in a programmer and then
| not being able to sell a product to the public for a year
| isn't financially viable. The time between doing the work and
| getting paid must be minimized to get decent returns.
|
| That's why they develop the firmware while the hardware is on
| the boat.
|
| With games and games consoles it's really noticeable - there
| is no games console you can buy and use without a day-1
| update to make it functional.
| shreddit wrote:
| I'm starting to think people buy this stuff on purpose to get
| attention on the internet by complaining about it. Why on earth
| would i buy an oven with Wi-Fi and NOT think the manufacturer
| would enforce the use of it...
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I think it is a legitimate complaint, even if they did post a
| disclaimer in the ad that said you had to connect to WiFi for
| full features. The market is having a tough time adjusting to
| this tactic, which seems to work primarily by preying on
| consumers that mostly do not know better. It's how we ended up
| with all good quality large televisions being Smart TVs, with
| no viable alternative. So people _should_ complain, publicly,
| loudly, and demonstrate that a market exists for dumb devices.
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| This isn't at all a common expectation. I own five Wi-Fi
| enabled devices, and only one (the Chromecast) makes any
| attempt to enforce the use of it.
| dtgriscom wrote:
| Hypothetically, what would you like do with a Chromecast
| without access to a network?
| vetinari wrote:
| Theoretically, Google Nest Mini (not Chromecast, I know,
| but close) could be used as a bluetooth speaker.
|
| But I never managed to do it. Trying to enable pairing
| always ends up with an error message.
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| There's no reason in principle that a Chromecast device
| couldn't include some local storage to support an offline
| viewing mode, although I do think they have a much stronger
| case that it would be annoying and inconvenient to build
| than for a GE oven.
| sdoering wrote:
| I recently wanted to buy a Bluetooth speaker for my mom. From
| experience I was looking for a small Bose speaker. It wasn't
| available. They recommended a Sonos alternative.
|
| I looked at the packaging. The price was only slightly below the
| Bose "equivalent".
|
| At home I wanted to quickly connect the speaker to the computer
| and was dumbstruck with the requirement to connect it to her
| wireless and install the App to configure it.
|
| Also I had to agree to Sonos transmitting every app I used to
| stream music, every song I heard, inclusive of the account names.
|
| This being sold without disclaimer or information that the device
| is unusable without such a data striptease, app install and wlan
| was quite irritating. I put the device back into the packaging,
| brought it back to the store and ordered a Bose for her.
| noja wrote:
| Bose do (did?) the same thing, at least with their headphones.
| Submits what you play to them by default.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| Bose does something similar for their headphones unfortunately.
|
| Only some basic functionality is available without the app.
| xadhominemx wrote:
| Ok, so connect it to the wifi
| teekert wrote:
| It clearly says that the WiFi gives you the better experience ;)
|
| Btw you know what is also garbage? Scrolling through a twitter
| thread in your browser and then halfway through reading some
| sentence the whole screen goes black and it tells you to log in.
| I literally had all I wanted to read on the screen already but I
| couldn't finish it.
| tgv wrote:
| Use nitter.net.
| voakbasda wrote:
| At a former job, I worked on the low-level OS support for GE
| devices. With that perspective, I would never buy one of their
| products that contains any software, and I actively warn others
| not to buy them.
|
| I worked on medical devices. Imagine how much worse the software
| will be on devices that do not have that level of regulatory
| scrutiny.
| loonster wrote:
| I have a GE Profile Induction Range. I both love and hate it.
| Idiots that designed it used capacitive touch sensors to adjust
| everything, including temperature of the burners.
|
| Think of using your phone with wet hands. Now imagine pan
| frying something on the range and it splatters adjusting the
| temperature to max. Need to have presence of mind to either dry
| the sensor and turn off, or remove pan from range so it auto
| turns off.
|
| Many manufacturers are doing the same thing and not just GE.
| Someone is going to have their house burn down because of this
| design decision.
| bombcar wrote:
| The "store wow factor" is getting out of control. Devices
| that look great on the showroom floor but completely
| impractical in use.
|
| Commercial market products sometimes avoid this but
| commercial ovens usually aren't insulated at all.
| [deleted]
| ratg13 wrote:
| GE is terrible at software, mostly due to their relationship
| with Tata.
|
| You were working on actual GE devices though, these appliances
| are GE in name only and slapped together by people who are even
| less skilled.
| malkia wrote:
| My Toyota Venza's rear camera (2009) won't work, if the Map DVD
| can't be loaded :(in my case it was just the DVD reader got
| busted or something), but such critical part as rear camera
| should not fail the Map Navigator it's not working (at least
| nowadays there are alternatives you can swap easily - e.g. your
| phone, not so easy with rear camera).
| chasedehan wrote:
| All this "smart" stuff kills me for basic appliances that no Wi-
| Fi should ever be needed for.
|
| Example: I am in the process of building a custom home with the
| ability to purchase whatever we want - when looking at ovens I
| told the salesperson that I didn't want anything that has to
| connect to the internet and the response was that I would need to
| pick out something lower end because everything "high end" has
| the connectivity now. Even dishwashers.
| noAnswer wrote:
| I recently had to install a new Netgear switch (GS724TPP) for a
| customer. It won't let you use "advanced" features like VLAN
| without registering it to a Cloud account first! (It was on a
| construction side with unfinished internet.) I told my boss to
| never buy Netgear again.
| vetinari wrote:
| I had a similar issue with Ubiquiti Unifi gear... trying to set
| it up on a site about a week before Internet connection would
| be available.
|
| The funny thing it was before it started to require cloud
| accounts (UDM et al). Just without being able to connect to the
| Internet, I could not complete the setup.
| version_five wrote:
| Like many people may have, my first though was why would you buy
| a smart oven. He explains in a follow up that it was the only one
| offered by his home builder. And this is an important and
| overlooked point.
|
| A lot of garbage that no reasonable person would ever buy ends up
| being weaseled in to new home sales because of deals the
| companies cut with the builders, knowing nobody buys a house
| based on whether they could have a user-scamming smart appliance
| as the default. This kind of thing is insidious- I have no idea
| what the solution is.
|
| Though as a afterthought, it reminds me a bit of the microsoft
| antitrust stuff from 20+ years ago where they bundled IE as part
| of destroying Netscape (im sure there is more subtlety than that,
| that's the gist of what I remember)
| [deleted]
| root_axis wrote:
| > _I have no idea what the solution is._
|
| I think this is a case where legislation is a clear win. It
| should be illegal for manufacturers to gate core functionality
| of stationary appliances behind an internet connection.
| Appliances already have a legal definition in the U.S. so it's
| not a far fetched idea.
| verisimi wrote:
| I don't think this legislation will happen.
|
| As part of the technocratic agenda, it is integral that all
| energy usage, water usage, etc is managed. For this to work,
| there needs to be 'kill switches'. Like the one's Biden has
| required new cars to have by 2025.
|
| Technocrats want to (micro) manage everyone's usage of
| everything. The green agenda is the main sales pitch given
| for this, but also look out for needing to log on to go
| online because of ... terrorists, Russian internet attacks,
| child abuse, etc.
|
| We are coding ourselves into dystopia.
| omginternets wrote:
| You're not wrong, but that's still what needs to happen.
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| Do... they? I follow a lot of people who I think you'd
| consider supporters of technocracy, and I've never seen
| anyone argue that it's good or important to have central
| monitoring of people's oven usage.
| verisimi wrote:
| They want to monitor everything. Smart electricity meters
| provide this functionality.
|
| Smart = spy. Eg, 'spy phones'.
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| Who is "they"?
| calumetregion wrote:
| Please read all of Neil Postman's work immediately. It's
| much bigger than the oven. Thank you.
| verisimi wrote:
| And did you know that Elon Musk's grandfather was a top
| technocrat in Canada?
|
| https://www.technocracy.news/shock-elon-musks-
| grandfather-wa...
| ConceptJunkie wrote:
| Everyone is so gung ho about all the companies that are
| throwing kill switches to Russia, and I'm just waiting for
| those same companies to start doing the same thing to
| anyone they want, for any reason. It's already happening.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| Happened in Canada not even that long ago, and many
| people cheered about that too.
| hn_version_0023 wrote:
| I'm curious about the specifics here. Could you provide a
| link or summarize? Thank you kindly :)
| _dain_ wrote:
| They froze the accounts of people at the protests without
| due process, and passed legislation to let them to it to
| anyone who supported them "directly or indirectly". i.e.
| carte blanche to send anyone into digital/financial exile
| with no recourse.
|
| they repealed it soon after (I think), but the door is
| open for them or any other government to do it again.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| Where in the bill does it mention kill switches for cars?
|
| https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/hr3684/text
|
| https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-
| bill/3684...
| crooked-v wrote:
| That's probably intended to refer to 24220.c, but
| overlooks that the "advanced drunk and impaired driving
| prevention technology" prescribed for new cars 2025 and
| later is described in terms that are functionally
| identical to the driver awareness monitoring safety
| systems that already exist in high-end new cars right
| now.
| MrYellowP wrote:
| > Technocrats want to (micro) manage everyone's usage of
| everything.
|
| You've spelt "Totalitarians" wrong. This is
| totalitarianism.
|
| This isn't just micromanagement. This is about total
| control. There's signs of totalitarianism all over the
| place, including US-culture itself. How kids are being
| raised. What they're being taught in school. How people
| behave towards each other.
| sdoering wrote:
| Let me be the one to challenge your claim of the enforced
| "Kill Switch" [0].
|
| [0]: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/infrastructure-bill-
| track-...
|
| Especially stating that this is an eco-agenda is imho
| either misinformation or willfully partisan.
| verisimi wrote:
| Its a control agenda.
|
| The eco-agenda is the provided pretext that will mean we
| willingly accept what is offered, in the name of saving
| the planet.
| MrYellowP wrote:
| Save the planet for the children!
| mistrial9 wrote:
| "a control agenda" is one (landmine) label meant to
| represent a set of complex interactions; this kind of
| drastic oversimplification is daily fodder for politics,
| but literally destructive to actual fact-based inquiry
| leading to effective policy. Similar arguments have been
| made regarding product safety and hygiene requirements by
| "government" !
| mindslight wrote:
| Except that such all-or-nothing logic is completely
| appropriate when talking about security of computational
| domains. Taking a device that is supposedly _mine_ and
| configuring it to work against my interests repudiates
| the idea that I am the owner of it. Rather than
| representing my interests, it is now an agent of someone
| else 's top-down policy. And if enough people modify
| "their" devices to remove such restrictions, then there's
| a good chance that even more systems of control get
| deployed to prevent them from doing so.
| tick_tock_tick wrote:
| These seems to just confirm there point while using a lot
| of weasel words to say it's not a "kill switch"....?
|
| Seriously I've not read such a round about stretch of a
| justification in a long time.
| aaron_m04 wrote:
| I almost agree with you.
|
| The way Snopes presents it sounds like there is enough
| wiggle room in the requirements for it to be a kill
| switch:
|
| > Passively monitor the performance of a driver to
| accurately identify whether they are impaired.
|
| > Prevent or limit operation if impairment is detected.
|
| > "Passively" detect whether the BAC of a driver is equal
| to or higher than the legal limit. In such cases, the
| system could "prevent or limit motor vehicle operation if
| an impairment is detected."
| BoorishBears wrote:
| What????
|
| Cars already have this! The base model Corolla has had
| this for half a decade! Hyundai, MB, Nissan, all have
| this across the board.
|
| If you're impaired for any reason (but mainly assured to
| be drowsiness), it detects your behavior and gives you a
| warning:
|
| https://www.autoguide.com/blog/wp-
| content/uploads/2014/05/ti...
|
| https://di-uploads-
| pod5.s3.amazonaws.com/sorgnissan/uploads/...
|
| https://www.autotrader.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2020/08/RT_Dri...
|
| All the bill does is say now those systems should
| escalate beyond a warning and be able to stop the
| vehicle.
|
| These cars already have all the info they need, if you
| "accidentally" drive like an intoxicated person, it's
| going to be for a reason you need to be stopped over!
|
| Like a medical episode, dangerous lack of sleep, texting
| and driving.
|
| It has literally nothing to do with being a remote kill
| switch.
|
| Saying it's a remote kill switch is like saying the
| mandatory backup camera system is as a mandatory
| surveillance tool...
|
| It's such a huge leap you can't possibly make it in good
| faith...
| WalterBright wrote:
| What if you have to drive like a maniac to get your
| friend to the ER before he bleeds out?
|
| (Yes, a friend of mine told me how he had to do just
| that. His friend died anyway, but it wasn't because the
| car quit.)
|
| There are lots of cases where I might need to get the
| most out of the car.
|
| Or maybe I just want to practice parallel parking.
| Erratic back and forth driving and turning.
|
| So the car according to some algorithm decides to shut
| down the car and strand me. The worst part is, I have no
| idea what criteria that algorithm is using, so I have no
| idea what line to not cross.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| None of this and I mean _none_ would trigger it.
|
| Not recommending this or proud/bragging/endorsing this,
| but I drive fast. Too fast. 100 MPH for me is what most
| people feel doing 5 over.
|
| I have *never* triggered these alerts _unless_ I was
| genuinely tired.
|
| -
|
| You're talking about a system you don't have the faintest
| clue about, instead of whipping out irrelevant fantasy
| situations, ask how it works???
|
| It will *not* react to intentional aggressive movement,
| it reacts to clearly unintentionally movement that are
| consistently late and low steering torque.
|
| This is not stuff you can replicate "practicing parallel
| parking", or driving like you're re-enacting fast and
| furious!
|
| I expect better of HN, you're jumping from a misleading
| interpretation to FUD without taking a moment to learn.
| vikingerik wrote:
| If the remote kill switch exists, it's going to be
| hijacked into government having the power to disable your
| car. It starts innocuously, something that everyone will
| agree with, like drunk drivers. Next will be drug
| dealers, who could disagree with that? Then deadbeat
| parents who owe child support. Then tax-owing deadbeats.
| Then who knows what other classes of "undesirables".
|
| Proof? It already happened: driver licenses already went
| through every one of those steps, getting hijacked way
| beyond the original purpose of denoting that you had the
| training to drive a car, into government-imposed threats
| against all sorts of "bad" behavior.
|
| I don't trust _any_ expansion of government power in good
| faith.
| cmeacham98 wrote:
| It's needlessly wordy, that I agree on, but here's the
| important part: the actual text of the bill is "equipped
| with advanced drunk and impaired driving prevention
| technology"
|
| I guess one way you could implement that is a remote kill
| switch, but at least when I first read the text I thought
| it would just be something like a built-in breathalyzer
| you had to pass before the car would let you drive.
|
| People claiming this is evidence of a kill switch are
| hard extrapolating with (as far as I've seen) no evidence
| that gets you from the bill's text to a kill switch.
| pessimizer wrote:
| That link doesn't even challenge the claim, it just fails
| to completely verify it.
| causality0 wrote:
| Even the most reasonable people can't make the argument
| when the direction is so wildly independent of reality. For
| example, water usage limits on dishwashers that make people
| run the cycle twice and end up using more water and more
| electricity than the old ones.
| recursive wrote:
| I find dryers are particularly bad at this. Mine has 5
| levels of dry-ness. Even on "ultra dry" the clothes
| usually come out damp. So I run "ultra dry" twice. Lol.
| slavik81 wrote:
| Have the exhaust vents for your building been cleaned
| recently? That's exactly the behaviour you'd expect if
| the exhaust system is clogged by lint.
| dvtrn wrote:
| I had a roommate who used to do this (thus sending our
| utility bill up along with some other power wasting
| habits), and I once asked them the question I'm about to
| ask now:
|
| other than for moments when you plan on wearing something
| as soon as it comes out of the dryer, what prevents one
| from using the normal dry cycle, and then letting
| whatever garments that don't get completely 100% dried-
| air dry in the closet or up on hangers on a shower pole
| or something?
| hollerith wrote:
| Mold will grow on damp cotton clothes -- not enough to
| see with the naked eye, but some people are more
| sensitive.
| wtallis wrote:
| Also important: some people live in areas with higher
| ambient humidity than other areas. If you live in an area
| where swamp coolers are a viable option in the summer,
| then of course you'll have trouble understanding why some
| people don't see hanging up damp clothes to be a
| reasonable option.
| new_guy wrote:
| @dvtm if you're just going to hang your clothes up to
| dry, then what's the point of having a dryer in the first
| place?
| mkl wrote:
| Hanging clothes on a rack inside is easy, but hanging
| sheets inside is not. I use my dryer for sheets when
| weather or time of day makes the outside line not a
| solution. I also use the dryer occasionally if I need
| some particular clothes in a hurry.
|
| I never put things through the dryer and then hang them
| though; my dryer works, and I don't even use the highest
| setting.
| wrycoder wrote:
| In some locations, it's illegal to dry your clothes on an
| outside line.
| WalterBright wrote:
| I just bought a clothes rack for the wet clothes. The
| clothes last longer anyway. Don't use the dryer anymore
| unless I need the clothes right away.
| BolexNOLA wrote:
| Living in the Deep South...that's not an option lol
| WalterBright wrote:
| I live in drizzly Seattle. It takes about 24 hrs for the
| clothes to dry, but there's no mildew problem if your
| house is dry.
|
| In the summer I sometimes put the rack out on the deck.
| The fresh smell of sun-dried clothes can't be beat.
|
| I grew up in Phoenix. Drying the clothes consisted of:
|
| 1. taking them out of the washer
|
| 2. putting them on the line
|
| 3. going back to to the beginning of the line, and taking
| them off, as they are now dry
|
| I'm not joking.
| Guthur wrote:
| God no please stop with getting the government involved, if
| the last 2 years have not convinced you how much they are all
| dim wits then I don't know what will.
|
| The answer is don't buy the damn house it's that simple.
| People want cheap houses and this is that. Pay more build
| what you want and be happy. And if you want to complain about
| how expensive designing and building a house is then blame
| those very same dim wits you want to come safe you.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| If your government is broken you should fix that first. Our
| government is our collective strength designed to protect
| us from the vampire overlords and blood sucking squids.
| roenxi wrote:
| The first comment in this thread is proposing that there is a
| corrupting force working with builders to install smart
| ovens. Centralising power in a regulator isn't targeted at
| the actual problem, and creates a single point of failure
| that might well end up with smart-ovens becoming _mandatory_
| in new builds, where possible.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "end up with smart-ovens becoming mandatory in new builds,
| where possible."
|
| Oh for sure. To fight climate change(and dependence on
| russian oil and gas), we all have to get a smart oven, to
| make sure we are all using our energy in the most efficient
| way. And not too often. Let's say a budget of 1 moderate
| use per day per adult user. And if the grid gets too
| unstable, your oven might smartly switches off and on
| during baking, to help stabilize the grid.
| torstenvl wrote:
| Or prosecute a few of these people for treason. Let's not
| mince words here. When you build a home and include a
| backdoor for foreign intelligence, you are committing
| treason.
| rasz wrote:
| Craigslist is a thing, nothing stops you from selling stuff you
| dont want and replacing it with stuff you do want.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Yep, but then there is the labor to uninstall, reinstall, and
| the effort to sell the original. The builder will actually
| install whatever you want, and the price is just low enough
| that you would not come out ahead doing the Craigslist swap
| later. They'll just make you pay the full price of whatever
| appliance you choose, no credit for the appliance you did not
| have installed.
| version_five wrote:
| Thanks for the insight!
| car_analogy wrote:
| Yeah like you can sell your smart TV and buy one of the
| approximately zero remaining consumer-available non-smart
| TVs.
|
| Voting with your wallet didn't work so far, but stay the
| course! Any moment now it'll start working, I'm certain.
| jancsika wrote:
| Approximately zero does not equal zero.
|
| Affirmation: I got a Spectre non-smart piece-of-shit TV
| before they sold out at Walmart. It's such a piece of shit
| it only lets you play mp3s from a directory on flash drive.
|
| Trust me, there's a piece of shit out there somewhere with
| your name on it. It's just a matter of whether you're going
| to put in the effort required to find it.
|
| "It's the question that drives us, Neo." -The Matrix
| squarefoot wrote:
| > It's such a piece of shit it only lets you play mp3s
| from a directory on flash drive.
|
| That's doesn't seem a big problem if you use an external
| Kodi box. I'll be relocating in months and will likely
| buy a signage display if I can't find a new bigger enough
| non smart TV. I only use my current non smart TV for RF
| channels while everything else comes through a unlocked
| chromebox with Kodi. It plays everything and doesn't
| contain spyware or ads.
| steanne wrote:
| why would i want my tv to play mp3s?
| jancsika wrote:
| What I meant is: that is the extent of non-TV business
| that the TV will do. There's no connecting to wifi, hence
| no phoning home.
| jsymolon wrote:
| A lot of times when I'm entertaining and cooking, I'll
| put some music on. Usually around the holidays.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Cause shitty TVs are known the world over for their
| quality sound?
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Flat panel sound has gotten shittier over time. The move
| toward thinner and thinner units means jankier speakers.
| RHSeeger wrote:
| My TV gets a single HDMI in, from my receiver; no wifi.
| Everything else gets plugged into the receiver.
| Everything internet related gets played from an external
| devices, to the receiver, to the TV.
| clsec wrote:
| IDK, my TV went out 3 days before the Super Bowl and I
| bought a perfectly fine Sceptre (not Spectre) TV from
| Amazon and got it the morning of the game. As a dumb TV
| it does exactly what it's supposed to.
|
| side note: I've previously stated that I refuse to buy
| from Amazon but in this case I had to bite the bullet and
| take them up on their free month of Prime so that I'd get
| it by the Super Bowl. They also had other brands with
| various levels of dumbness.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| If you're happy with 55" or less of 1080p, used LCD TVs
| are dirt cheap.
|
| Like, I bought a 42" for the cabin for $40, and got a
| replacement remote for $8 off Aliexpress. I could sell
| the stand and power supply for about $100 because they're
| shared with more "modern"/bigger units.
|
| Everyone is buying the latest 4K smart junk. And losing
| the stand when they wall-mount it.
|
| (Cabin doesn't have internet, so I was actually worried
| about a smart tv disabling itself)
| r3trohack3r wrote:
| Not disagreeing with the sentiment here, but I was recently
| surprised to find my LG smart TV allowed me to reject their
| terms of service and privacy policy.
|
| If you reject them, it cuts off access to all of the smart
| tv stuff (including the App Store, apps, etc). Seems like
| telemetry also stops.
|
| I was pretty delighted to discover this.
| clhodapp wrote:
| Does it not periodically bug you if you do that? That's
| what happened with mine until I eventually relented and
| started getting bugged by their "notification"
| advertising instead
| flatiron wrote:
| My Samsung tv puts itself in "demo mode" if you aren't on
| the Wi-Fi and it'll shut itself down and reset all its
| settings every hour.
| DiabloD3 wrote:
| Unfortunately, that was your mistake.
|
| _Never_ buy anything Samsung branded. No phones, no
| consumer SSDs, no TVs, no monitors, no laptops, no phones
| and tablets, no fridges and wash machines and driers.
| _Nothing_. The entire brand is toxic.
|
| Hell, don't even do business with their fab, ask Nvidia
| about how that turned out for them.
| christophilus wrote:
| > Samsung
|
| I see your problem.
| rosndo wrote:
| But why would you but anything but an LG OLED?
| flatiron wrote:
| My contractor dropped my previous tv which was like 10
| years old and that's what he got as a replacement. Went
| from 1080p to 4k.
| notreallyserio wrote:
| Mine bleeds pretty bad around the edge. Not bad enough
| I'd go through a replacement process but I won't buy one
| again.
| aceazzameen wrote:
| I did the same with my Sony Bravia, although I still have
| access to apps I want to use. I don't even know what the
| features are that I rejected cause I don't care about
| them.
| amyjess wrote:
| I mean, there's no reason you can't buy used.
|
| (though, yes, it phenomenally sucks that you can't buy one
| new anymore)
| [deleted]
| abrowne wrote:
| I got new boilers (furnaces for radiator heating) installed
| recently, and halfway through one of the crew asked where they
| should install the boxes that connect the thermostats to the
| internet. Luckily they were completely separate, so I said I
| never agreed with that and they left them boxed up, because
| they had never thought to mention it. (They listened to my
| explanation that I would not have something that literally
| starts a fire in my house connected to the internet without at
| least being able to control the software it runs, but I think
| they were just being polite.)
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| I mean you do realize a Wi-Fi connected thermostat just
| closes a pair of contacts that tell the boiler "heat on" or
| "heat off" and it's not "literally starting a fire" in your
| house. Assuming someone took over and had full control of
| your thermostat the worst they could do is turn the heat on
| and make you uncomfortable. All boilers/furnaces/etc have
| protection mechanisms built in and in no circumstance is the
| 'fire' controlled by the thermostat whatsoever. A thermostat
| simply sends a signal that 'calls' for heat or cooling. The
| only exception would be a mains-voltage thermostat that
| controls an electric wall heater but I've never seen those
| connected to Wi-Fi.
| pengaru wrote:
| Thermostats generally have an "off" setting, and it's
| historically not uncommon for homeowners to use this
| setting when the home is unoccupied as it clearly carries
| less risk in terms of both fire and unexpected energy costs
| than ones that may run the furnace.
|
| Not only is your comment pedantic, it's not even correct.
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| The 'off' setting on a thermostat is no different than
| when it is not calling for heat and it does not make any
| other failure mode any less likely nor does it reduce the
| risk of fire. In fact, leaving a home without heat in
| some climates like the northeast leaves your home
| susceptible to pipes freezing which carries a much higher
| risk of damage to your home than a well-maintained boiler
| or furnace spontaneously burning your house down which
| happens almost never.
|
| Homeowners typically use this setting because the
| overwhelming majority do not understand the mechanical
| systems in their homes.
|
| The typical configuration for a steam boiler or hydronic
| heating is a single pair of wires. They are either closed
| (heat on) or open (heat off). That's it.
|
| I worked in the HVAC industry. My comment is pedantic
| because it is correct.
| pengaru wrote:
| > The 'off' setting on a thermostat is no different than
| when it is not calling for heat and it does not make any
| other failure mode any less likely nor does it reduce the
| risk of fire.
|
| You're completely ignoring the difference between an
| unattended vs. attended fire. The former has a much
| higher risk of being destructive and spreading to the
| structure.
|
| The "off" setting explicitly won't trigger in response to
| temperature change unattended, which is a similar concern
| to internet-connected thermostats; unattended operation.
| For those living in freezing climates they obviously must
| weigh the relative risks. That first use of the furnace
| in winter was always a monitored event back when I lived
| with parents in the midwest, and it was often accompanied
| by a burning smell we'd investigate and verify was just
| some dust and nothing serious.
|
| Even if you refuse to acknowledge there's a difference in
| unattended vs. attended fire risks WRT the furnace,
| unexpected energy costs from continuously heating an
| unoccupied home can break the bank for some.
|
| Even my Harman/Kardon amplifier's manual advises
| unplugging it when going on vacation because of the risk
| of it spuriously turning on wasting electricity and being
| a noise problem. Its capacity to waste energy (~1kw) is
| nowhere near that of a gas furnace, and it clearly
| doesn't utilize combustion as part of its normal
| operation.
|
| Fortunately I no longer live anywhere burst pipes are a
| concern, and I'd never leave a heater setup to
| automatically run in my absence. It makes _zero_ sense
| for my situation.
|
| I find it amusing that you're qualifying statements with
| "well-maintained", which amounts to a tacit recognition
| of the risks. Well-maintained isn't the default, ignored
| and neglected is, _especially_ for systems out of sight
| and out of mind.
| slavik81 wrote:
| You should not turn your furnace off in a cold climate,
| especially if the home is unoccupied. If the temperature
| drops below too low, the water in your pipes may freeze
| and expand, breaking the pipes and causing flooding.
| Without anyone home to notice the problem, the flooding
| can easily cause tens of thousands of dollars of damage.
|
| https://totalph.ca/should-i-turn-my-furnace-off-before-i-
| go-...
| jdavis703 wrote:
| Correct, this is totally different than having a smart gas
| oven or stove. I too would never have plumbing or gas
| appliances hooked up to the internet. But my Nest
| thermostat is totally safe.
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| Whirlpool figured this out and deserves some praise here.
| All their new appliances that support Wi-Fi connectivity
| have a physical "Remote Enable" button that you must
| manually push every cycle to enable remote control of the
| device through the app. You cannot start the
| oven/washer/etc remotely unless someone has manually
| acknowledged it at the appliance and I believe it resets
| after 24 hours or when the cycle is complete.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| I bet its all software though.
| WalterBright wrote:
| Of course, and it's remotely upgradable, too. That way,
| the manufacturer can install spyware anytime they want,
| and any hacker can use it to mine bitcoins.
| pengaru wrote:
| > But my Nest thermostat is totally safe.
|
| It is not "totally safe" for your furnace to start in an
| unoccupied home, particularly after it's been off for an
| extended period. It's not impossible for critters to have
| setup shop in the warm space near a pilot light, and in
| an unoccupied home there's nobody to even smell what
| would be an obvious problem before it becomes a crisis.
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| This is FUD.
|
| Thermocouple-based gas valves immediately extinguish the
| flow of gas when a pilot goes out in e.g. a pilot fed hot
| water heater. This has been standard for decades.
|
| Pilot lights have not been used in gas furnaces in
| decades. Everything has been electronic ignition since
| the 80s at the latest. In fact they have been outlawed in
| some locales for close to 40 years.
| pengaru wrote:
| > Thermocouple-based gas valves immediately extinguish
| the flow of gas when a pilot goes out in e.g. a pilot fed
| hot water heater. This has been standard for decades.
|
| Who said the pilot light was out?
|
| > Pilot lights have not been used in gas furnaces in
| decades. Everything has been electronic ignition since
| the 80s at the latest. In fact they have been outlawed in
| some locales for close to 40 years.
|
| And the baby-boom produced how many homes with pilot
| lights? Thermostats are often upgraded on existing homes
| without touching anything else, and every single home
| I've lived in was built decades ago still having original
| HVAC.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| >just closes a pair of contacts that tell the boiler "heat
| on" or "heat off" and it's not "literally starting a fire"
| in your house
|
| Unless you observe Shabbat.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_on_Shabbat
|
| >Nobel Prize-winning physicist Richard Feynman recounts
| that he was approached by young rabbis in a seminary who
| asked him "is electricity fire?". He replied, "no", but
| asked why they wanted to know, and was shocked that they
| weren't interested in science at all, but just wanted to
| interpret the Talmud. Feynman said that electricity was not
| a chemical process, as fire is, and pointed out that there
| is electricity in atoms and thus every phenomenon that
| occurs in the world. Feynman proposed a simple way to
| eliminate the spark: '"If that's what's bothering you, you
| can put a condenser across the switch, so the electricity
| will go on and off without any spark whatsoever--anywhere.'
| But for some reason, they didn't like that idea either".
|
| Feynman was SHOCKED I say SHOCKED they weren't interested
| in science at all! ;)
| assttoasstmgr wrote:
| If only there was a technological solution to this.......
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KosherSwitch
|
| I believe thermostats are okay, as long as you don't
| adjust it. Many observant Jews use timers on Shabbos.
| 13of40 wrote:
| A year or two ago, my newish car was at the shop, recovering
| from a fender bender, and I got a call from the police asking
| where it was. I told them and they said that matched with the
| coordinates they had. It turned out that the SOS system had
| malfunctioned, and the GPS and integrated 4g (which I didn't
| even know I had, because the car doesn't have a built in
| navigation system or voice phone) had been phoning home and
| telling the car company I was in trouble. I called the
| manufacturer and asked if I had a subscription to this
| service, and I was informed that the car had a subscription,
| and I couldn't cancel it. Luckily I appealed to the
| dealership and after a couple of days the sent me a
| "confidential" pdf with instructions on how to unplug the spy
| module...which of course threw up all kinds of scary warnings
| starting the car after that... until it suddenly didn't
| anymore. So now I have a dumb car, and I love it more than
| ever.
| toss1 wrote:
| May I ask what kind of car that was, and what country?
| vetinari wrote:
| AFAIK the SOS system is mandatory in any new car sold in
| EU since 31.3.2018.
| car_analogy wrote:
| megablast wrote:
| Good. Every car needs to be tracked at all times. They are
| death machines, responsible for over s million deaths
| worldwide every year. It is insane we allow this.
| kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote:
| I gotta know now...what make and model?
| 13of40 wrote:
| 2017 BMW X3. I forget what the module is called, but it's
| behind the panel in the cargo area on the left side.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| I can't imagine living in a place where there's enough
| police for any of them give a shit about stolen cars.
| Jealous!
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| I lived in Sonoma County for a while and there they
| followed up everything, even noise complaints. Same for
| the post office. It's nice to live in a wealthy area.
| wrycoder wrote:
| It also helps when the police have very few complaints to
| follow up.
| theonealtair wrote:
| I went to use the app for my hot tub and put in the 6 digit
| pin, except the last number I put in was a 4 instead of a 3.
| It logged me in, but the temperature looked off, then I
| realized I wasn't connected to my hot tub, it was someone
| else. Turns out the 6-digit pins are sequential. And this is
| from a billion dollar pool company.
| TheCoelacanth wrote:
| The S in IOT stands for security.
| bombcar wrote:
| This is true across a frighteningly large swath of "quasi
| industrial home control" stuff - all the vulnerabilities of
| industrial controls with zero of the attention paid to it.
| JoeyBananas wrote:
| That's incredible
| theonealtair wrote:
| The temp said 20deg (which is impossible in my climate).
| Good thing I didn't crank the heat up.
| ajsnigrutin wrote:
| So wait.. you get your oven when you buy your (new?) house?
|
| Everywhere i've been, you're happy if you get a kitchen, and
| the oven is just like a washing machine... a standard-sized
| piece of equipment that fits in a standard-sized hole in your
| kitchen, that you buy in an electronics store.
| mkl wrote:
| Some ovens are built into kitchen benches.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| > I have no idea what the solution is
|
| Refuse to have any oven and hire someone else to install one
| afterwards.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| In my experience the builder will very happily install
| whatever you want. But they will charge you full price for
| the appliance you select, and give you no credit for the one
| you are not having installed.
|
| Sounds like a bad deal, because it is. But... what are you
| going to do? Let them install the one they planned to, then
| rip it out and install the one you want later? Okay, maybe
| you can get enough for the original one to come out ahead
| financially, but mostly you won't, once labor is factored in.
| It's a wonderful racket for builders, they know exactly how
| to price it so you pay far more than the difference for every
| upgrade.
| duped wrote:
| Why not tell them not to install it? My local big box
| stores install appliances for free or a nominal fee.
|
| If you can afford to build your own home, you can afford it
| too!
| aunty_helen wrote:
| >the only one offered by his home builder
|
| Then obviously he's powerless and the corporates have won.
|
| Or, yano just like tell them you want it changed or you'll get
| someone else to take your hundreds of thousands of dollars to
| build your house.
| nix9000 wrote:
| It's likely they bought the house from the home builder e.g.
| something like Toll Brothers. So the alternative is to take
| their hundreds of thousands of dollars and buy another house.
| duped wrote:
| Appliances are not that expensive, and you are free to sell
| whatever is in your home and buy what you'd like. If you're
| getting a good deal on the home you can break even, if not
| ahead on that.
| mcspiff wrote:
| It's even worse now in Canada -- not smart devices, but water
| heater rentals. These companies charge astronomical rates per
| month for a rental, or a large "contract buy out fee". They
| give kick backs to developers so almost all new builds in
| Ontario will have them.
| ohyeshedid wrote:
| Ahh, the Culligan/Water treatment/softener business model.
| hedora wrote:
| I suppose their lawyers figured out that people would just
| recycle them and stop paying.
|
| If so, I suggest installing a water softener with an anti-
| backflow device but not installing a bladder pressure relief
| tank between it and the water heater. Also buy a whole house
| leak detector / shutoff valve.
|
| If the resulting water heater tank rupture doesn't lead them
| to breach the maintenance side of the contract, look into
| over-softening the water so the sacrificial anode fails every
| 6-12 months.
|
| (Edit: In case it wasn't clear, this is a great way to do
| unbounded amounts of damage to your house, so don't actually
| do this.)
| Scoundreller wrote:
| I think it's a regional thing, big in Ontario and
| Saskatchewan, unheard of elsewhere.
|
| Always look into buyout terms. Though replacement heaters
| these days are lot more expensive than pre-covid :(
| mindslight wrote:
| Individually, pushing back on such terms and having a strong
| alternative. "subtract the cost of the oven and leave the spot
| empty".
|
| Collectively, through market leveling regulation. "Selling" a
| device where the manufacturer retains control after the
| transaction is straightforwardly in the category of fraud. But
| unfortunately we seem to need new laws rather than relying on
| straightforward torts.
|
| Furthermore, reigning in the surveillance industry with a US
| GDPR would go a long way towards removing the incentives for
| this bullshit.
| pinewurst wrote:
| Specifically the only choice offering dual ovens in a single
| form-factor.
| xfitm3 wrote:
| I would like to remotely turn on my oven to preheat, but I
| don't want this enough to get a wifi equipped appliance.
| zxcvbn4038 wrote:
| The problem with this trend is what happens in 2-3 years when the
| manufacturer decides they don't want to update the app anymore? I
| have ovens that are twenty years old, my washing machine was made
| in the 1950s (and has so much steel I think it can be used as a
| tank in times of war). I'm pretty sure appliances today aren't
| built to the same standard but seems foolish to have to throw
| everything away every few years because the app isn't being
| updated for the latest iOS or it's not compatible with wifi7 or
| similar. At least with my AC I can fall back to the remote or
| front panel. In this case you don't even get that option.
| pickledcods wrote:
| Because it is internet connected, and possibly only works when
| internet connected, you are dependent on the manufacturer after
| purchase. Does it have a built in web-server that can device-
| independent access all functions through a local net. If not then
| it sounds to me like after-sales.
|
| What are the after-sales terms? Is there a contract? Are you
| going to pay for an after-sales subscription? If not, how is
| their business model to finance it? How is your privacy or
| personal identification involved? How long will the product be
| supported (Planned obsolescence)? Can you block automatic-
| updates? Can you downgrade the firmware? What are your legal
| options if they close down the service before product end-of-
| lifetime? Or liability if the product gets hacked and
| destroys/damages property? Will refusing after-sales influence
| warranty? What are their terms & conditions to ban your access to
| the device? What are the non-automated options in case of
| disputes? What are the options/rights when escalating complaints?
|
| Sounds like these questions should be answered on the box before
| you (or the person installing it) should open it. Or in the first
| section of EULA in layman's terms.
| teekert wrote:
| It is at least nice to hear that the touchscreen experience was
| nice. Recently I had 2 experiences where I longed back to older
| tech. A Siemens oven/microwave in a rented cabin that had an
| awful menu filled with options and took 4 steps to get to the
| function I needed, whereas my 10 y/o AEG I hit the function I
| want (key with icon immediately accessible) and then start. And,
| my own 2006 Ford has a BT module (aftermarket) which just starts
| when I start the car and it connects and works. My parents Dacia
| has a fancy system that takes 2 min to boot and then I need to
| try a couple of times and then it connects, really annoying, yeah
| it has a large touchscreen but I much prefer my ancient 1 line
| LCD display.
|
| Now that I think about it, my oven has a one line old glowy
| numbers display. Maybe the limited displays force much more
| thought into how to make funtions accessible.
| lsllc wrote:
| Haven't bought appliances in a long time but we recently replaced
| most of the appliances with LG Thinq units, incl. a Wifi enabled
| refrigerator, oven, washer and dryer.
|
| I have to say the Wifi enabled refrigerator is next to useless, I
| guess it tells me the temp and when the water filter needs
| changing ... not things I need. (and it only works on 2Ghz, so
| you need a separate 2Ghz _only_ WLAN for it).
|
| The Wifi oven is actually useful, because when you have that "did
| I leave the oven on" moment after you have left the house, not
| only can you check, but you can remotely turn it off. It's also
| useful for starting the oven preheat as you're buying that frozen
| pizza at the store so you can come home to a hot oven ready to
| go. The periodic "your oven needs cleaning" notifications are
| annoying though.
|
| By far the Wifi enabled washer and dryer are the most useful! You
| get a notification when the wash/dry is done! and the washer will
| keep reminding you until you open the door on the unit so you
| don't end up forgetting and then having to rewash to avoid smelly
| clothes.
|
| (weirdly, only the fridge had the 2Ghz only problem, must use
| different hardware)
| dtgriscom wrote:
| > 2Ghz
|
| Do you mean 2.4GHz?
| c7DJTLrn wrote:
| I hope the oven has a better reset process than GE lightbulbs...
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgIsn0Zac3o
| d_tr wrote:
| Firmware version two point nine with Turn Time 2 will be a real
| game changer. I think I 'll wait.
| nop_slide wrote:
| Ha! I have a fun one.
|
| We recently had our first child. I finally opened a thermometer
| we were gifted from a shower and low and behold, the thing can
| not take a temperature without downloading an app. It has a
| digital screen and everything, but you when you first power it on
| you are greeted with it displaying "APP" and you HAVE to download
| the app & set it up before it will work.
|
| When we finally took the temperature, the damn thing still didn't
| even display it on the screen, it sent the reading to the app. I
| don't even know what the point of the screen is.
|
| This thing also wants to "anonymously" share your temp readings
| and location with the community stating it will help and let you
| know if there are diseases spreading locally.
|
| It went against my dignity to download it and use the thing, but
| it was 10:00PM and checking our baby's temp at the time was more
| important.
|
| Still it was the most asinine smart-device experience I have had
| to date.
| mberning wrote:
| This is why licensing your brand is such a double edged sword. GE
| has had nothing to do with engineering appliances for many years,
| yet you can still take the reputational hit when things like this
| come to light.
| egberts1 wrote:
| Return it back to the store.
|
| Not worth the trouble.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I'm curious about this from a U.S. legal perspective.
|
| Suppose I advertise (and sell) a product without clearly
| informing the buyer of additional requirements they'll face in
| order to use the product as advertised. E.g., access
| functionality via WiFi, accept an EULA, etc.
|
| At what point does that become fraud or illegally deceptive
| advertising?
|
| I'm assuming that there's some allowance for assuming common
| knowledge, e.g. that an electric oven will require a 220-240V
| connection. But if there's a legal line to be crossed, where is
| it?
| gambiting wrote:
| He literally shows a screenshot in the article with the line
| highlighted telling you that you have to connect an app to
| unlock some features. You'd have a hard time arguing that's
| deceptive advertising.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| Sorry, I only noticed that after writing my comment.
|
| So maybe my question applies to other situations but not this
| particular one.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I can see a service come into existence where you can have
| 'smart' appliances defanged.
| donohoe wrote:
| I know a fair number of people who have internet connected
| fridges, thermostats, cars, air quality monitors, and so on.
|
| Most of them don't work in tech. Those that do have very few and
| seek out 'dumb' versions. I count myself in that group.
|
| Next time I need a new TV it will not be a smart one. My current
| on has Roku but not its showing ads... so now I use TV
| exclusively through my Apple TV. _Sigh_
| CorrectHorseBat wrote:
| Reminds me of this news from yesterday
| https://tweakers.net/nieuws/193950/aeg-combimagnetron-denkt-...
| (Dutch, couldn't find an English source)
|
| AEG microwave thinks it's an steam oven after update, don't think
| even The Onion could come up with this.
| firefoxd wrote:
| That reminds me of my Westinghouse Radio hub[1]. They abandoned
| the product and the domain expired. So naturally, it couldn't
| play the radio.
|
| [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083759
| paxys wrote:
| The right time to complain about this would have been _before_
| you bought the oven. Companies are only going to stop these
| practices if shoppers vote with their wallets.
| elmerfud wrote:
| Companies will keep shoveling this kind of garbage out there door
| as long as people like him are passive enough to deal with it.
| This may be the limited range of options offered by his builder
| but if you get an appliance and that appliance does not work
| contact your builder or contact the manufacturer of the appliance
| for warranty repair.
|
| Make them send out a technician to manually update the firmware
| if that's what they require but tell them you have no Wi-Fi and
| they can take this garbage back and give you your money back and
| then you can sue your builder to put an appliance that works but
| until people begin to hit these places in the pocketbook and vote
| with their dollars this kind of trash will not change.
|
| I don't want to have to buy an "internet of shit appliance" that
| needs to be on the internet because they shipped it with broken
| firmware. They can either take it back or they can send a
| technician to conduct a warranty repair. The only exception would
| be something that's bold and bright on the front of the box that
| says internet connection required to function. Most of these
| things don't say that they just say Wi-Fi enabled. Which is a
| fine benefit for those people who want that kind of
| interconnected appliance and spyware lifestyle. For those who do
| not the correct action is hit the company's in their pocketbook.
|
| The loss of dollars is the only message that companies understand
| loud and clear. A Twitter complaint is just wasting your time.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| > Make them send out a technician to manually update the
| firmware if that's what they require but tell them you have no
| Wi-Fi and they can take this garbage back and give you your
| money back and then you can sue your builder to put an
| appliance that works
|
| The oven is specifically marketed as not having some features
| without connecting to the internet. I'm not sure what you think
| complaining would accomplish, but I can assure you it will not
| lead to any firmware updates or refunds. And it definitely
| won't lead to a winning law suit.
| [deleted]
| azemetre wrote:
| I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens can
| obviously lobby their representatives to ban this practice and
| allow a category of goods to work without internet connections.
|
| This is what regulation is all about.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| The harm here isn't that there is no non-WiFi oven available,
| it's the underlying reason why the oven wants Wi-Fi and an
| app: "growth and engagement" aka data collection,
| advertising, etc. The primary purpose of this oven isn't to
| be an oven, it's to build a "platform" which you can then use
| to "engage" its users with more ads, DRM-encumbered
| consumables, etc. Their intended end-game is the
| "Unauthorized Bread" story:
| https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-
| bread-a-...
|
| Regulation should address non-consensual data collection and
| the rest will follow. Non-WiFi ovens will be back on the
| market once the connected ones stop being profitable (since
| you can no longer stalk... I mean "engage" their users).
| [deleted]
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| Wouldn't it be easier just to not buy an oven that requires
| this if you don't want it?
|
| And if there are people who want to by the oven, why not
| deign to let them?
|
| At best, we should require that there be clear labeling and I
| would be surprised if there aren't regulations that cover
| that.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| The danger is that we'll end up with the same situation as
| we have with TVs - good luck finding a consumer-grade TV
| with modern specs that doesn't spy on you, ask you to
| create an account, show ads, etc.
|
| Some people will say that there are still budget models
| (Sceptre is a common brand that comes up in these
| discussions) that doesn't have any of that, but they're not
| selling these products out of goodwill - they just have a
| lot of dead stock (panels, etc) that they can shift
| profitably. This stock will run out (and it does - do these
| TVs have any modern features such as HDR, a quality panel,
| etc?) if it turns out to be more profitable to produce spy
| devices that happen to display TV content rather than
| produce devices intended to display TV content with no
| interest (nor capability) to spy.
|
| The proper solution is to heavily restrict advertising and
| data collection so that in the end the advertising-based
| business model isn't profitable and it becomes more
| profitable to just go back to the old model of selling
| good, purposeful devices at a profit.
| eesmith wrote:
| The account owner wrote: "We wanted dual ovens in the space
| of a single oven and this was the only option our builder
| offered."
| itronitron wrote:
| For now at least there are ovens that don't require it. But
| since it's remarkably hard to find a robotic vacuum that
| doesn't require wifi connectivity it may just be a matter
| of time before all ovens are asking their owners to create
| an account.
| JadeNB wrote:
| > I understand what you are saying but this is where citizens
| can obviously lobby their representatives to ban this
| practice and allow a category of goods to work without
| internet connections.
|
| I think that the burden of proof should be the other way: it
| shouldn't be that certain special devices are exempt from
| internet connections, but rather that _all_ devices should
| offer a mode whereby they perform all functionality that does
| not directly require an internet connection. Then, of course,
| we 'll have debates about what directly requires an internet
| connection ... but at least it'll bring the discussion into
| the open.
| criddell wrote:
| It's only a matter of time until these internet connected
| appliances don't need access to your wifi. They will either
| have a cell modem or the appliance company will pay Amazon for
| access to their mesh network.
| ce4 wrote:
| What happened to SSL3/TLS1.0/TLS1.1 end-of-life will also
| happen to Wifi protocols: WEP-only devices are already out,
| WPA1-only devices will be next to lose access to a properly
| secured wifi network.
|
| The longevity of the dumb parts in kitchen appliances exceeds
| that of the smart boxes in them. The manufacturer cannot slap a
| 20-years maintenance-budget onto the sticker price and I also
| don't see customers paying for a yearly maintenance
| subscription for 20 years (for each connected appliance). It
| will take a decade until people have learned that the shiny new
| iOT features are a burden in the long run. Maybe iOT
| maintenance longevity will get sorted out sometimes. Until then
| I refuse to buy such crap.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| From a manufacturer's perspective this seems awesome. Built-
| in planned obsolescence.
| ilamont wrote:
| One of the replies mentions Samsung's similar requirement
| frustrating his elderly relative. According to a 2015 OECD
| computer skills study, <6% of Americans are level 3 (highest)
| while half have only basic skills and 20% can't use computers.
| https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/skills-matter_978926...
| wereHamster wrote:
| Share of adults proficient at problem-solving in technology-
| rich environments: https://goingdigital.oecd.org/indicator/24
|
| ... there are other indicators that are related as well, in the
| https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/use and
| https://goingdigital.oecd.org/dimension/society dimensions.
| falcolas wrote:
| This data is disturbingly eye opening.
|
| Only ~5% of folks in the US are able to navigate through
| webpages and apps when doing so is _required_ so solve a
| particular problem. And it 's not like this is just a US
| problem, the highest percentage across the measured countries
| is a measly 10%.
|
| And the example task they used - using webpages and apps to
| find a job - is more and more based solely online these days.
|
| I think I need to go make another donation to our local
| library for their work in helping folks navigate these
| tasks...
| [deleted]
| TheBill wrote:
| Oh man, this reminds me of a story - GE Profile oven in a ski
| condo, last day or second to last day we were there.
|
| Broke in a way that you couldn't open the door - and we couldn't
| get the bacon out. Wound up reading the repair manual and a forum
| while the GF cooked eggs, trying to figure it out.
|
| The Solenoid that is used to lock the door when it goes through a
| clean cycle has to be powered on 100% of the time, and keeps its
| spring compressed. Power turns off to lock it. If the
| insulator/bushing for it breaks, it will jam open & lock the
| door. Family will never buy GE appliances after this happened.
| Mom just bought a new Kitchenaid that's got exactly 0 smart
| features.
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| That's hilarious. It was an engineer trying to be fake safe.
| Losing control over your device is going to be less safe than
| just letting the user open the door during a clean cycle if the
| power drops.
| bombcar wrote:
| The worst part of this stuff is you never find out about it
| until long after the purchase is over. Unless you happen to
| know a brand that's good (say Speed Queen for now) you are
| stuck trying to guess what issues may occur someday.
| bob1029 wrote:
| > Speed Queen
|
| The only vendor who still sells a washer without lid lock...
| I'm looking at getting their TC5 to replace this piece of
| shit maytag that doesnt fill up properly.
| askura wrote:
| That's crazy. I wonder which company get the kickback for having
| these installed in newbuilds? Bet you'll find a link there.
| RansomStark wrote:
| Every time I see a story like this I'm reminded how close we are
| to unauthorized bread [0] and it saddens me each time.
|
| Humanity was given the greatest communication tool we could
| imagine and we use it to spy on people and steal their data, so
| companies can sell more shit. What a waste.
|
| [0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41085118-unauthorized-
| br...
|
| On a side note, I'm convinced Doctorow is the greatest cyberpunk
| writer there is, but I'm also sure the reason for this is because
| earlier writers had to imagine a dystopian future. Doctorow, like
| the rest of us, is living that future (which is much more boring
| that fiction made out) and he's simply documenting what he sees.
| notreallyserio wrote:
| There's also the classic verification can:
| https://m.imgur.com/dgGvgKF . Not exactly the same thing but
| tangentially related.
| calumetregion wrote:
| Agree, but this assumes humans would ever had used it for
| anything else.
| amelius wrote:
| People should massively buy this oven and return it. Because
| that's what this company deserves for being so user-hostile.
| criddell wrote:
| Inventory of appliances is down quite a bit right now. It might
| not be possible to massively buy the oven.
| dt2m wrote:
| At this point the best solution might almost be legislation
| banning touch screens from cars and home appliances...
| version_five wrote:
| Or mandating any that include wifi, touch screen, anything
| running code to be open source and able to be modified by the
| user.
| loonster wrote:
| This wouldn't be good enough.
|
| Imagine pan frying something on your range, the food
| splatters, and it changes the temperature on you. Now you
| need to adjust the burner back down (or off), but you can't
| adjust the temperature because the controls are now wet with
| grease. Better be quick to dry off controls and turn off heat
| before you start a grease fire. Or failing that, moving the
| pan off from the heat source...
|
| Just ban them.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Or merely restrict non-consensual data collection like the
| GDPR does - this kills the underlying reason why every
| appliance has to be "smart" and internet-connected.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| Are there more options to buy non-smart TVs in the EU than
| the US?
| squarefoot wrote:
| https://www.swedx.com
|
| I'm not aware of other manufacturers, although Samsung
| also makes signage displays but it's not clear if they
| employ any "smart" features. Some also use Tizen which is
| Linux based and should be open enough to allow rooting.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Touch screens on home appliances are nice sometimes though...
|
| I think people like the 'smart' features, they just want more
| control over the device and not for it to be crippled if it's
| not connected...
| gpm wrote:
| That will work for all of two years before we get the same shit
| but with "gesture" controls (waving your arms in the air).
|
| Legislate against what you actually want to prevent. Here
| that's locking features behind privacy violations and
| connections to third party hardware. In cars it is also
| controls that you have to look away from the road to use.
|
| The gdpr is on the right track on this issue, for an example.
| jart wrote:
| The Smart Home 2.0 revolution will address the accessibility
| gap of voice enabled devices by including cameras in home
| appliances too, so that speakers of sign language aren't left
| behind.
| smolder wrote:
| It's like peeking through a crack into the future. Were you
| in the think tank that planned the end of privacy?
| jart wrote:
| Think past the end of privacy and imagine the
| democratization of access to privacy. A brave new world
| where everyone gets the opportunity to be a big brother.
| As for me, I'm pretty happy spending most of my time
| working with a teletypewriter, cooking my food on unsmart
| appliances, and not using a mobile phone.
| FourthProtocol wrote:
| In my social and work bubble nobody I've spoken to about it
| watches live TV anymore, myself included. News is consumed online
| (primarily Economist, Guardian and BBC, but not exclusively). TV
| does XBox, DVDs (I've amassed over 10001) and streaming (via Xbox
| and an old laptop). So of course any dumb disaplay with an HDMI
| connector will do the job. Sports events often also stream live,
| or can be watched in the pub. So beyond that, does live TV offer
| that much value that it merits a Smart TV?
|
| 1 Of course most won't have such a library - but it offers
| nothing more or less than streaming does.
| damontal wrote:
| Sports, if you care about sports.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2022-03-05 23:00 UTC)