[HN Gopher] Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk
___________________________________________________________________
Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk
Author : luu
Score : 72 points
Date : 2022-03-03 18:14 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (marginalrevolution.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (marginalrevolution.com)
| chomp wrote:
| Can we get the link updated to the official statement?
| https://norwaychess.no/en/2022/03/02/russian-participation/
|
| The article is an opinion piece that's inaccurately framed in
| that it's not the specific canceling of an individual (and cats),
| but solidarity with sanctions placed on Russia.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| It's embarrassing the amount of individuals/corporations that are
| deciding to screw over random Russian citizens, who have a fairly
| good chance of not even supporting the war.
|
| The next time an Islamic terrorist attacks the US, let's use this
| as precedent for denying random Muslims access to civic culture
| across the globe. Lovely world we're building.
| s_dev wrote:
| Russians are complaining, that it is not "fair" to put economic
| and social sanctions on them. "After all, it is our government,
| not us, who started this war" they say.
|
| Thats okay Russians. We didn't put on the sanctions. Our
| governments did -- so that argument is a two way street if you
| want to engage in bad faith arguments.
| pvaldes wrote:
| This is probably the best that could happen to him and other
| relevant Russian athletes:
|
| If allowed to play will be exposed to a myriad of blood-thirsty
| journalists asking a chess player to talk about war. Would be
| asked, required and pressed thousands of times to speak against
| it or to clarity their position about it.
|
| Anything that he says will be politicized.
|
| 1) Can choose to talk against the war and Putin, be cheered for a
| few days and return to Russia, where will be immediately put in
| jail and silenced, or end in the ever increasing list of people
| assassinated in this last decades. Or face retaliation against
| their families... Losing option.
|
| 2) Or can choose to say that Putin is a genius and the war is
| necessary. Will alienate their fan-base, friends and sponsors and
| end this international career. The championship could be
| boycotted by furious people. So. Losing option again. Everybody
| loses (except Putin). At least will not root in a jail.
|
| 3) Trying to remain neutral wouldn't work. Remaining silent in
| the middle of a genocide is the same as supporting it. And their
| words will be most probably cherry-picked by journalists to make
| it appear as supporting one or the other option.
|
| So the only wining situation is not being allowed to play. Losing
| a championship or two and keeping a low profile for a while. Low
| price to pay for keeping his career and life relatively
| unscathed.
|
| Is not his fault if he can't be used as living advertising for
| the politics of Putin. Will not earn the contempt of other chess
| masters or the hate of the fans for an parallel event that can't
| control and wasn't looking for.
| jdrc wrote:
| I hate it when a serious issue is dragged to the extreme in such
| distracting ways. Dostoyevski and chess players are not the
| problem , be smart
| TomGullen wrote:
| Working class Russians are not the problem either, yet the
| sanctions penalise them the most.
| burmanm wrote:
| And that usually plays to the advantage of the elite. Now the
| working class has only one supporter, the Russian government.
| Their propaganda of "west hates you" feels very real to them
| now.
|
| This is quite age old tactic that usually doesn't work,
| punishing civilians in the war usually does not demoralize
| them, but works against the aggressor. Same can be said about
| these sanctions. Why would they trust the west if we want to
| punish them and their only hope is their current
| administration?
| jdrc wrote:
| OTOH that has been the propaganda of Putin the entire
| decade. At some point supporters have to face the
| consequences as well
| unethical_ban wrote:
| >Now the working class has only one supporter, the Russian
| government.
|
| They have only one enemy, the Russian government.
| burmanm wrote:
| > They have only one enemy, the Russian government.
|
| Do you think layman thinks the friend is the person who
| punishes them without them doing anything wrong? I find
| that seriously difficult to believe.
|
| Think about it yourself. You go to a nightclub and then
| the doorman says only you're not allowed, because your
| friends who just went in said you're not wanted. Do you
| still consider them as your friends and just think it's
| for your best?
|
| That's a very odd logic there.
| [deleted]
| somenameforme wrote:
| This is getting really stupid. Anytime there is some major event
| we always work to try to ensure that people appreciate there is a
| difference between the people of a country and the bad actors of
| a country - even when those bad actors _are_ the government. But
| now because it 's our favorite geopolitical enemy, everything
| goes out the window.
|
| Imagine if the victims of our wars (or their partners) were more
| influential and were able to effectively spread global messages
| of arbitrary hate and intolerance against people simply for being
| American. And not mob mentality from extremists and radicals
| already predispositioned to hate, but orchestrated top-down
| hatred and intolerance from the "liberal" world order.
|
| This is not going to spark some amazing revolution of frustrated
| chess players, disabled athletes, and cat show enthusiasts. The
| only thing this sort of stuff is doing is driving more hatred and
| division, and helping us inch that much closer to WW3. Putin
| invading Ukraine was a terrible decision; many Russians of all
| walks of lives oppose it. Yet they're _at least_ as helpless to
| ever change any of it than we are to end our never-ending wars in
| the Mideast since we, at least in theory, could stop voting for
| warmongers.
| [deleted]
| agambrahma wrote:
| Eh, punishing individuals like this seems pointless, especially
| _after_ they've made their personal stance clear.
|
| Or at least, it doesn't "advance the game of chess", which is
| what organizers should care more about.
|
| There is probably some creative middle ground to be found here,
| such as awarding them without recognizing Russia, etc.
| toolslive wrote:
| They have been creative in the past too:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1990#...
| Mo3 wrote:
| Yeah giving them the EU passports and just attributing them to
| ,,EU"
| dahfizz wrote:
| Neither Russia, Ukraine, or Norway are in the EU. You may as
| well make them play for Madagascar; it makes no sense.
| seszett wrote:
| There is no "EU passport", just 27 national passports that
| also have "European Union" written next to the issuing
| country. It's only up to individual countries to issue their
| passports, also Norway isn't in the EU anyway.
| Mo3 wrote:
| I am referring to the EUs plans to issue passports. I'm not
| informed beyond having heard this.
| throwawayfuture wrote:
| > Eh, punishing individuals like this seems pointless
|
| I feel the same way about Ukranian citizens who are being
| forced to flee their homes.
| random314 wrote:
| Fyi - You are not countering OP, you are supporting his
| point.
| mdoms wrote:
| Oh look another HN Russia sympathizer telling us literally any
| intervention is pointless.
| throwaway5752 wrote:
| This is _not_ a case of punishing individuals. From one of the
| source links from the linked article: "Norway announce that no
| Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 edition of the
| event"
| bob66 wrote:
| causi wrote:
| It's not about the chess players. It's about the little people
| who see the headline that another of their representatives is
| unwelcome, and about the powerful people who see one more way
| Russia is being shamed for its actions.
| adenozine wrote:
| Sure, but what about the livelihoods of the people these
| actions affect more directly? What if he needs that chess money
| to pay his bills?
|
| It's heavy handed, imo.
| causi wrote:
| The proportionate response would be to start shelling Russian
| cities. Nothing short of that _can_ be heavy-handed.
| have_faith wrote:
| Do you apply the same logic to all of the banking sanctions
| that effect regular Russian people? should we not enact any
| sanctions that could in any way effect the value of the
| rouble for instance? as the whole country relies on it to pay
| their bills.
|
| People are dying, heavy handed measures are needed.
| brimble wrote:
| Everyone in Russia is going to be hurting from this. Most of
| them don't really deserve it, but you can't bring an entire
| economy to its knees without harming _everyone_.
|
| It'd be kinda weird to single out chess masters to save from
| the pain, while a grandma on a fixed income is facing
| shortages and watching her already-meager buying power drop
| by the day, the low-level staff at various businesses are put
| on half-time or cut altogether and they'll be skipping meals
| to make rent, et c.
| hellcow wrote:
| I wonder if he would be allowed to compete under the FIDE flag
| like Alireza Firouzja did after leaving Iran.
| jmpman wrote:
| He could move out of Russia, give up his Russian citizenship, and
| then play.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| The Russian diplomatic corps and information operations teams are
| taking advantage of the emotional signaling power of the word
| "cancel" to attempt to manipulate the American right, with whom
| the word resonates as their world seems to unfairly change around
| them.
|
| If you want to be taken seriously as a nuanced thinker, rather
| than a sketchy what-abouter trying to yank people around, I
| wouldn't use that word.
|
| Prediction:
| https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1498441260499017733
|
| Outcome 1:
| https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1499041366696992772
|
| Outcome 2:
| https://twitter.com/PaulSonne/status/1499421918629404681
| JohnTHaller wrote:
| To put it flippantly: Propagandists gonna propagandize.
|
| Don't help propagandists.
| wedn3sday wrote:
| It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian
| invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament
| organizers job to vet the political views of every single
| participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin?
| Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual
| people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.
| cyanydeez wrote:
| ritht,n and do people really think governments should be
| independent of their citizenship?
|
| you are right, this is sending a message, but its a deeply
| philosophical message.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| The is position that a person with Russian citizen cannot
| represent themselves and will always be representing the
| country is bankrupt.
|
| Invitations are based on personal performance, not allocated
| based on national identity like the Olympics.
|
| Should us companies fire workers with Russian citizenship or
| ties?
| plandis wrote:
| What is the purpose of the ban? Is it really doing anything to
| undermine Russia's leadership? My guess is that this harms
| chess players who happen to be Russian but who have no control
| over the government and doesn't do anything to hinder the
| actual Russian government in any meaningful way.
| aaomidi wrote:
| Yeah as an Iranian, I have experience with these sort of
| decisions and they are discriminatory and an excuse for
| xenophobia. I never chose where I was born. I left the second
| I could. Holding me to my birthplace is just as fucked as
| having a "no Browns allowed" sign.
| dmitrygr wrote:
| [deleted]
| nigerian1981 wrote:
| What's the difference between what Russia is doing and
| America's illegal invasion of Iraq. Why weren't American
| athletes banned?
| pastor_bob wrote:
| Russians have been carpet bombing innocent Syrians for years.
| Even using thermobarbic bombs against them, with no
| sanctioning from the West. Obviously the middle east is of
| little consequence in these discussions for all parties.
| nigerian1981 wrote:
| You're not wrong there. The BBC interviewed a former deputy
| prosecutor general of Ukraine, who told the network: "It's
| very emotional for me because I see European people with
| blue eyes and blond hair ... being killed every day."
| Rather than question or challenge the comment, the BBC host
| flatly replied, "I understand and respect the emotion."
| random314 wrote:
| Iran does the same thing with Israeli chess players which it
| considers an apartheid occupation of Palestine. I would love to
| hear your views on it.
| jstx1 wrote:
| They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let
| them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.
| lordnacho wrote:
| Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though,
| especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic
| Committee" or similar.
|
| Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think
| of the person as Russian.
|
| There's no way around it, we all already know where they are
| from, regardless of what they think of the war.
| jstx1 wrote:
| > Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would
| think of the person as Russian.
|
| Yeah because they're from Russia. I just don't see how
| "people will think" is enough of a reason to ban them from
| playing an event.
|
| (1) Some deranged person running Russia decided to invade
| Ukraine, kill innocent people and ruin millions of lives.
|
| (2) A chess organization in Norway bans a player because
| they were born in the same country as the deranged person
| from above.
|
| I don't get how (2) is an appropriate response to (1) or
| how it helps anyone. It's not a deterrent, it's not any
| kind of response - nobody in the Russian government will
| feel the tiniest bit of pressure because of it, it's such a
| token act that it's laughable to think about in the context
| of what's happening in Ukraine. At the same time it's a big
| deal to the handful of players it affects.
|
| All this does is create publicity and make the careers of a
| few people significantly worse just because they happened
| to be born in the wrong country.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| >Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia
| though
|
| not really, in chess at least. Playing under the FIDE flag
| is pretty common when geopolitical tensions are involved,
| see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE_flag_player
|
| Israeli players playing under the FIDE flag at UAE
| tournaments has happened as well. There's plenty of
| precedent for it.
| throw10920 wrote:
| > Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia
| though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian
| Olympic Committee" or similar.
|
| Citation needed. If I see someone playing chess, or _any_
| game for that matter, then I assume they represent the flag
| that they 're playing under is what the represent. If I see
| someone playing under a non-Russian flag, it doesn't matter
| how Russian their name sounds - I don't consider them to be
| representing Russia in any capacity - they could have been
| born in India, a French citizen, ethnically Ethiopian, and
| just given that name by their parents, for all I know.
|
| (and, if I look into them further, and discover that
| they're a Russian citizen and they're _intentionally_ not
| playing under a Russian flag, there 's _no way_ I 'll think
| that they're representing Russia)
|
| Please find me examples of people who do _not_ believe
| this, because the idea that "Everyone still thinks of them
| as representing Russia though" is both deeply weird and
| completely illogical to me, and I've never met someone who
| agrees with it.
| gpm wrote:
| To add to this, it seems like chess players semi-frequently
| change what flag they play under, and can play under no flag
| at all.
|
| Alireza Firouzja (world #2) for instance originally played
| under the Iranian flag, played under no flag for a year and a
| half, and now plays under the French flag.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alireza_Firouzja
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| As I recall, this is what happened to Nepo during the recent
| World Chess Championship anyway due to the doping scandal.
| endisneigh wrote:
| If that were actually the issue they'd be allowed to play, but
| not on behalf of Russia.
|
| Though I'm curious - how much time in your opinion has to pass
| before Russians are allowed to participate again? If actions
| have to be taken, which ones?
|
| If actions can be taken to allow them to participate then in a
| sense is that saying the actions are sufficient to compensate
| for the senseless killing of Ukrainians? If no time or actions
| can be taken then are we ok with indefinitely ostracizing a
| group of people? What of their children?
|
| Earth has already been down that road, it's not really great.
| Best to just punish those who directly contributed to the
| things with disagree with.
| shagmin wrote:
| Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of" countries
| like the Olympics are, are they, or some gray area in
| between? Aside from that, I kind of view it as a blunt
| instrument. If there were a way to target Putin and his
| regime directly within a reasonable amount of risk, I think
| they'd have chosen that option. In 2014 I think I remember
| some people under Putin took it as a badge of honor to be on
| the sanctions list, it seemed like an inconvenience that
| could be solved by more corruption to work around it. I think
| if you make it policy to try to isolate a country, but start
| allowing exceptions, then it's not going to be ordinary
| Russians that benefit, but instead only connected people and
| the whole thing loses its bite. And it's a response to a
| specific action by a specific regime. I don't see why these
| bans wouldn't be lifted once sanctions are lifted.
|
| Having said that, I could see it resulting in a small
| increase of harassment of Russians in other countries.
| Someone wrote:
| > Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of"
| countries like the Olympics are, are they
|
| Mostly not, but there's the Chess Olympiad
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_Olympiad) and the
| World Team Championship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worl
| d_Team_Chess_Championship)
| mwt wrote:
| > Chess isn't something that's played "on behalf of"
| countries like the Olympics are, are they, or some gray
| area in between?
|
| Most events, and the general culture, is in a grey area.
| Outside of the Olympiad which features literal national
| teams, flags still feature prominently. There's of course
| wild variance in how nationalistic players feel; some like
| Karjakin are deeply nationalistic while the average
| probably feels loosely tied. Some even change associations
| after conflicts with their country of origin, see young
| prodigy Firouzja moving from Iran to France recently. I
| can't think of a comparable international sport to compare
| it to since I mostly know about American sports. Somebody
| else that follows chess and i.e. football may be able to
| make that comparison - AFAIK most players play for national
| teams during nationalized events but don't wear their
| country's flag prominently when they play for private
| clubs.
|
| Each country has its own federation and playing for one's
| federation is so deeply ingrained in the culture that the
| solution "well, just play as yourself, not a national" that
| seems obvious outsiders is something that organizers and
| players are hesitant to reach for. I think *a* reason for
| this is that dipping out of a federation prevents you from
| playing in that country's championship or representing them
| in the Olympiad, each of which are a big deal to the top
| players. There are also almost surely other complications
| in FIDE rules that I'm not aware of. Suffice it to say that
| playing under the FIDE or ROC flags is not the sort of
| thing you'd see until recently.
| Miner49er wrote:
| > Though I'm curious - how much time in your opinion has to
| pass before Russians are allowed to participate again?
|
| I think the idea in this case is that since many Ukranians
| can't play, Russians shouldn't be able to either. So I would
| think the sanctions would end when Ukraine isn't fighting
| anymore, and can participate again. That's at least the IOC's
| stance. [0]
|
| [0] https://olympics.com/ioc/news/ioc-eb-recommends-no-
| participa...
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| But no Ukrainian was banned from playing? Were any even
| invited?
| ladon86 wrote:
| You're right! The only fair solution is to drop Grischuk
| in central Kyiv; if he survives the journey to Norway and
| arrives on time, he should be allowed to play.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Not every Ukrainian is located in Kyiv. There are
| Ukrainians living abroad, that have left Ukraine, and
| have the ability to leave Ukraine.
|
| Why is the standard an imaginary Ukrainian grandmaster
| currently trapped or engaged in fighting?
|
| Perhaps they should cancel it for everyone because this
| imaginary person can't make it. After all it is also
| unfair that people can travel from Germany and the US
| while the imaginary Ukrainian can't.
| mdoms wrote:
| > Though I'm curious - how much time in your opinion has to
| pass before Russians are allowed to participate again?
|
| How is that relevant? I think no matter what the answer, no
| one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the actual
| invasion".
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| >no one is going to draw the line sooner than "during the
| actual invasion".
|
| If it's going to just be countries still in ongoing war or
| occupation, then I suppose China, India, Turkey, France,
| Israel, and the US will be next on the list to be uninvited
| from the tournament. I'm sure we could think of more too.
| gpm wrote:
| Funny you should mention Israel.
|
| People playing under the Iranian flag aren't allowed to
| play people under the Israeli flag. Because they
| represent Iran, and the player under the Israeli flag
| represents Israel.
|
| Not only is this not a new issue, it's an issue where
| lines are already drawn. This is just a tournament
| choosing sides where the previous instance that I'm aware
| of was an entire chess federation...
| rosndo wrote:
| > Though I'm curious - how much time in your opinion has to
| pass before Russians are allowed to participate again? If
| actions have to be taken, which ones?
|
| Not until the government has changed or reparations have been
| paid.
| ZoomZoomZoom wrote:
| > the person is representing Russia
|
| It's not a team sport. One would think chess players represent
| themselves.
| isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote:
| Most sports are not team sports, yet sportsmen represent
| their countries.
| RustyBucket wrote:
| This is how you step on a path of a genocide
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide)
| goto11 wrote:
| Allowing a dictator to invade a neighboring country which he
| don't think had a right to exist, is how you end up with
| genocide.
| ZainRiz wrote:
| Are you claiming Alexander Grischuk allowed Russia to
| invade Ukraine? (something he's been openly critical of?)
|
| How much more critical have you been of your own country
| invading other nations?
| trhway wrote:
| Genocide and ethnic cleansing is already in full swing. Too
| late for "step on a path".
|
| As a Russian immigrant in US, i support kicking out from US
| or any other country any Russian who wouldn't condemn in
| straight clear words Putin's fascist regime and the genocide
| it conducts in Ukraine. Anything less is just a support of
| what is going on.
|
| For any public figure it is doubly so. Grischuk didn't even
| use the word "war" in order to not have issues with Russian
| government. Well, it is a war and one can't be on good terms
| with all the sides simultaneously, and there is no neutrality
| when it comes to genocide and ethnic cleansing. Ukrainian
| civilians get killed being bombed in their homes just for
| being Ukrainians (it is called genocide), Ukrainian women and
| children are running for their lives to Poland (as their
| lives are in danger just for them being Ukrainians, and such
| ethnicity based forced displacement constitutes ethnic
| cleansing), with some walking tens of kilometers in cold
| winter, and even some women giving birth in-route. If you
| don't take their side then you really should be kicked out of
| the civilized world.
| Jcowell wrote:
| This comment makes me think of a piece of relevant
| literature who's television adaption is about to end called
| Shingeki no Kyojin or it's English translation "Attack on
| Titan". I wonder what the reaction of the upcoming episodes
| will be as the Russian Invasion continues.
| privatdozent wrote:
| Not what happened though. They removed all Russian players, out
| of solidarity with Ukraine. That includes Svidler and Nepo, who
| are both critical of Putin and the invasion. As was Chucky!
| harshreality wrote:
| This initially may seem like unproductive, mistargeted
| overreaction.
|
| However, consider that if Russians can't do what they want to do,
| maybe they'll focus more efforts on fixing their country so it
| stops the invasion and doesn't do something like this ever again.
| It may not work, but every Russian needs to be thinking about
| that, with priority over their jobs and hobbies. Making things
| painful for them is one way to do that. It's terrible for people
| whose jobs are directly affected, but the situation is even worse
| for Ukrainians.
| ZoomZoomZoom wrote:
| I understand the intention, however, the majority of those
| broad-stroke sanctions hurt the most progressive and self-
| reliant citizens first, the current regime support is extremely
| low for those people already.
|
| Putin's main support base will start to feel anything only in a
| few weeks, when the economy crashes and inflation starts
| reflecting on the base needs. Most of the "deep nation" have
| only internal passports (never travel abroad), work in a
| government-funded spheres of economy, use mostly state-
| sponsored sources of information. Sanctions will probably just
| reinforce the narrative of "the ruthless enemies are encircling
| the motherland and can't wait to rip it apart".
| blub wrote:
| This has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've read
| online. When it comes to war, countries like Russia or the US
| do whatever they want whenever they want, no matter how the
| population feels about it.
| [deleted]
| jbreckmckye wrote:
| Grischuk has already made public statements against the war.
| What else do you want him to do, blow up the Duma?
| forgetfulness wrote:
| And Russia is a country where high profile dissenters do risk
| their freedom if not their lives outright. The people
| comfortably making this decision from Norway aren't doing
| anything like that.
|
| This tells to Russians that the world doesn't care about
| them, individually, risking their lives to stop the actions
| of their Government as they like to claim.
| somenameforme wrote:
| I would also add that Grischuk was under no obligation to
| say anything that he did. He was even rudely cut off by the
| 'host' at one point. And he even mentioned that in his
| phrasing he was going to avoid using the war since it's
| illegal in the media, and he wants them to be able to quote
| him.
|
| If there was ever a man you want with a voice and face in
| the media at a time like now, it would be somebody like
| Grischuk. This is somebody that, especially in times like
| now, that should be elevated. Instead he's going to be
| effectively depersoned on the international stage and
| effectively silenced, seemingly like every single Russian
| regardless of their wrongthink or lack thereof. What a
| world we're creating.
| forgetfulness wrote:
| These kinds of attitudes show to me that much of the
| western world didn't draw many lessons from 1914 other
| than that you can do more than figurative painting in the
| visual arts.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Make the Russian people suffer hoping they revolt, because
| freezing the foreign assets of the oligarchy is too dangerous.
| Got it.
| agency wrote:
| Imagine if Americans were held to the same standard with
| respect to the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.
| harshreality wrote:
| I'm not going to defend America's military adventurism, but
| do you really see no difference between a limited military
| campaign against a brutal dictator (and yes, partially over
| control of oil) vs a campaign to take over a bordering, more-
| democratic country for mythological ethic reasons, including
| by shelling cities?
| ZainRiz wrote:
| "Democracy" is your litmus test, remember that the US has
| been happy to overthrow democracies and put dictators in
| power if it better serves their economic interests:
|
| - Panama - US invaded it in 1989 and overthrew their leader
| - Iran - US staged a coup in 1953
|
| Not to mention how the US is actively helping Saudi
| Arabia's dictators suppress dissent in both Saudi Arabia
| itself and neighboring Yemen
|
| More fun reading: https://www.quora.com/How-many-countries-
| has-the-USA-invaded...
| endisneigh wrote:
| Are you suggesting killing innocent people is somehow more
| righteous if a the area is not democratic?
|
| Didn't the USA carpet bomb many places in the Middle East
| with drones?
|
| Again, not to create a false equivalency but I believe the
| OPs point is that shouldn't Americans be ostracized?
| harshreality wrote:
| Killing people isn't righteous. It is, however, more
| acceptable or tolerable depending on the context and
| military force and tactics used. Blame what you want, but
| what percentage of the UN and UN security council
| denounced American actions? What percentage denounce
| Russia's current actions?
| brimble wrote:
| > Didn't the USA carpet bomb many places in the Middle
| East with drones?
|
| The drone war's been horrible, but "carpet bomb" means a
| specific thing, so, no, the USA did not do that
|
| [EDIT] To be clear, this isn't pedantry--that doesn't
| even _figuratively_ describe what 's gone on.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Is this not carpet bombing?
|
| https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-
| east/isis-ir...
| brimble wrote:
| 1) Not drones.
|
| 2) I assume you brought up drones in particular because
| the drone war has raged, as you wrote, "all over" the
| Middle East, which is part of what's alarming about it.
| Iraq and maybe Syria have experienced US-led saturation
| bombing during the drone war (but not by drones).
| Countries subject _primarily_ to the drone part of the
| war have not.
| endisneigh wrote:
| 1) fair enough. My mistake.
|
| And yeah your interpretation of my point is correct.
| brimble wrote:
| Cool. Again, I find the drone war more than a little
| worrisome, so we're probably more-or-less on the same
| "side" here, but drones have not, as far as I know, been
| used for this sort of "destroy an entire large area kinda
| indiscriminately" attack--not because they couldn't be,
| but because that's not the usual tool the US happens to
| use for that _at this time_ , so if they did it it'd be
| with traditional aircraft (as in the linked article), and
| also because the drone war has, as far as I can tell,
| mostly not involved those sorts of strikes. Iraq is a big
| exception, but that's not because of the drone war--it's
| because of the _ordinary_ war that the US waged there.
|
| The drone war has caused plenty of collateral damage
| regardless, of course. I'm just not sure characterizing
| it as carpet bombing is either accurate or helpful in
| pinpointing exactly what's uniquely bad about the drone
| war. In fact, I don't even think the people in charge of
| it are _trying_ to cause widespread damage beyond their
| typically-very-limited targets--though lack of
| accountability ultimately is _one_ of the bad things
| about it, along with normalizing that kind of
| extraterritorial violence in the first place, the
| everything-looks-like-a-nail factor (when all you 've got
| is a Predator drone...), and so on.
| elliekelly wrote:
| I was in high school when the US invaded Iraq and around that
| time I went skiing in Quebec with a friend. We spent the
| weekend in the city and, while exploring, accidentally got
| caught up in what felt like a pretty big protest against the
| American invasion of Iraq. Looking back it was actually a
| fairly small and very tame protest but I was just a kid and
| it was totally unexpected so it was scary. And it really
| changed my worldview. It was my very first time ever leaving
| the country and I hadn't expected Canadians, of all people,
| to be "anti-American" in any way. It was also the first time
| it had occurred to me that what the US was doing could even
| possibly be wrong. The thought had not even crossed my mind.
|
| It's important to have a friend who will tell you when you're
| being an asshole.
| ivan90210 wrote:
| >Making things painful for them is one way to do that.
|
| The problem with this sentiment is that you're assuming that
| Russians are anything like your people.
|
| We'll endure being deprived of Lego toys and Disney cartoons
| just fine.
| bjourne wrote:
| But Saudi Arabia can bomb Yemen for years and Israel Palestine
| for decades without repercussions? I'm all for sanctions against
| Russia but the hypocrisy here is so thick you couldn't cut it
| with a knife.
| ars wrote:
| Are you obsessed with Israel or something? This isn't the first
| time I've seen your comments about Israel, and your submission
| history is just full of this topic.
|
| Israel isn't "bombing Palestinies for decades". They're
| fighting back when Palestinians attack them (why did you gloss
| over Palestinians bombing Israel?), then there's quiet for a
| while, and then more fighting.
|
| The Israeli/Palestinian relationship is very complicated with
| enormous history, and claims by both sides. Just because you
| can't distinguish it from Russia/Ukraine doesn't mean others
| can't.
| Consultant32452 wrote:
| Muslim ban: bad
|
| Russian ban: good
| moralestapia wrote:
| I am always deeply disappointed with how little civic and ethical
| values the average person has left.
|
| Whenever the common narrative finds a way to blame something or
| someone, the collective dehumanizes the target in a way that's
| quite terrifying, actually. People love to parrot about how
| "dictators are bad", "hitler was bad", etc, but when they find
| themselves in trivial situations where they have to show what
| they're made of not much more comes out of it.
|
| Without saying much about it, let me remind you that there is a
| Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which, among other things,
| it's pretty clear that no one should be discriminated because of
| their origin or nationality. Every single "developed" country
| shares a set of laws that guarantee similar rights to their
| citizens (and visitors!).
|
| Whether you think that people who are in these situations are
| having their rights dishonored or not it's up to you, I just want
| to remind people that some blades cut both ways so one has to be
| careful about which one is being honed today.
|
| Disclaimer: I'm not Russian, never been to Russia, no friends in
| Russia either. I am a human being and have empathy for all other
| fellow human beings.
| throwaway5752 wrote:
| This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands
| of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian
| invasion.
|
| One can either 1) sanction Russia (which impacts all Russians)
| 2) partially sanction (which is unavoidably subjective and
| abusable) or 3) not sanction Russia. This is a case of 1, based
| on the source link, "Norway announce that no Russian players
| will be able to play in the 2022 edition of the event"
|
| It is not fair to talk about "civic and ethical values" outside
| of this extremely relevant moral context.
| throwaway5754 wrote:
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| Glad to see Norway Chess taking a principled stand against those
| representing countries who have recently committed a serious war
| crime such as a war of aggression. Disappointed though to have a
| tournament without Sasha, Nepo, Svidler, Mamedyarov, Radjabov,
| So, Dominguez, Nakamura, Aronian, Gelfand, Firouzja, or Vachier-
| Lagrave. It'll be exciting to see who wins.
| starik36 wrote:
| Understandable in light of sanctions against Russia. However,
| this truly sucks for him as an individual, particularly in light
| of what he had to say about the invasion. The man is truly
| pained.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFN0s53RpGY
| [deleted]
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| It isn't understandable really. What is happening here is
| discrimination and can't be justified. Unless they have some
| proof that they are a spy or as an extension of Russian
| government for a dangerous intent, then there is no excuse.
|
| This is only going to create more conflict and tension, and
| generate hatred in people that would otherwise be neutral.
| mwt wrote:
| -
| drugstorecowboy wrote:
| Framing a rescinded invitation as discrimination is not a
| stretch at all, it very literally is discrimination. If you
| replace this definitely not discriminatory action against a
| Russian with a Black Man would you still support it?
| unethical_ban wrote:
| Oh, please. Ethically, they should have a justification to
| their actions.
|
| If they get to kick people out for their nationality (when
| that person is not "representing" a nation) then I get to
| think they're foolish.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _What is happening here is discrimination and can 't be
| justified_
|
| It _is_ discrimination. And it 's entirely justified. The
| same way when, if your friend stars a bar brawl, you all get
| kicked out. Only he should get _e.g._ arrested. But there 's
| a big difference between not being able to compete for your
| country and getting shelled.
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| Wow, so you believe people of color deserve discrimination
| because statistically they commit more violent crime?
| belval wrote:
| You are presenting a stunning example of the moat-and-
| bailey fallacy[1].
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-
| bailey_fallacy
| yaseer wrote:
| Yeah that really sucks.
|
| It's understandable when the lines between state and individual
| are blurred - like with state sponsored doping of Olympic
| athletes, who are competing as part of a national organisation.
|
| But when it's an individual whose nationality just happens to
| be Russian?
|
| Seems more unfair, than just.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Gotta love how discrimination is so easily spread. Like, this guy
| has said very many times in public that he doesn't support the
| invasion, but he's Russian, y'know?
|
| It's sad how humanity just keeps doing the same thing over and
| over...
| imbnwa wrote:
| In the domain of Mixed Martial Arts there's a discussion over
| whether to permit Russian nationals to have fights, even though
| the majority of Russian nationals in MMA are from colonized
| ethnic groups who live in the southern Russian republics, e.g.
| Chechnya, Dagestan, etc. Amateur wrestling would be completely
| fucked if it were to conceive and follow through on such a ban
| given the hegemony in amateur wrestling these southern Russian
| republics hold there, particularly Dagestan.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| >Chechnya
|
| Even if the invasion had never happened boycotting Chechnya
| would have been acceptable given their previous actions.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#LGBT_rights
| [deleted]
| imbnwa wrote:
| Sure, but that's independent of the current conversation
| while not being wrong in its own context.
| throw10920 wrote:
| This is completely, totally wrong. There's no "discrimination"
| here - Grischuk is a Russian _citizen_ , which is why he's
| being kicked out of the tournament, along with the other
| Russian _citizens_ mentioned - their ethnicity is a non-factor.
|
| The only relevant issue is the question as to whether _all_
| Russian citizens (regardless of ethnicity) should be banned
| from these kinds of events (more generally: have sanctions and
| sanction-adjacent actions taken against them), or just those
| who have directly contributed to the invasion (Putin, his
| military advisors, some Russian oligarchs maybe?) - which is a
| good topic for discussion. Claiming "discrimination", on the
| other hand, is factually incorrect, blatant emotional
| manipulation & unnecessary flamewar-bait, and does not belong
| on HN.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Your comment is the one that's blatantly wrong - no one
| mentioned discrimination on the basis of ethnicity other than
| you.
|
| Discriminating on nationality is still discrimination.
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| >Grischuk is a Russian citizen, which is why he's being
| kicked out of the tournament
|
| I assume Giri for example still has citizenship - I wonder if
| he will be banned despite not representing Russia.
| version_five wrote:
| Agreed - I can't believe how quickly the "mainstream" had
| adopted a hatred basically of a whole people based on the
| actions of an autocratic leader that does not represent them,
| and where speaking out would almost certainly have very bad
| consequences. We should be doing everything we can to stop
| Putin from waging war, but casual hatred of a group is not
| helpful or appropriate, even if it's the obvious extension of
| all the online mob behavior we've seen in recent years.
| pbourke wrote:
| I don't know why you're being downvoted. What you say is
| correct and ethical, in my view. Putin and the Russian
| government are to blame, not random Russian citizens.
| Miner49er wrote:
| I believe the goal of sanctions like this is to make the
| people mad at their leaders. So you sanction Russian
| citizens in the hope it'll help motivate them to create
| change. Not sure it could work with Russia, but maybe?
| jjgreen wrote:
| > an autocratic leader that does not represent them
|
| They did elect him (with 76.69% of the vote).
| roveo wrote:
| This is incorrect. Electoral rating of Putin (as of 2021)
| is around 30%. The central election committee will just
| declare the results that Putin wants.
|
| People in the West who live in (relatively) democratic
| countries just go around saying "Russians elected him"
| without actually understanding what living under an
| autocratic rule is like. Putin never won a free and fair
| election. He persecuted his opponents, denied them access
| to media (and as of today, there's no independent media
| left) installed dummy ones that play into his hand and
| falsified the elections.
|
| It's like seeing hunger in a 3rd world country and saying
| "why don't they just learn how to program and get an actual
| job?"
| altcognito wrote:
| "Do everything we can, but not this, this is too harsh."
| pbourke wrote:
| Can you not see how this statement must be true at some
| point?
| pastor_bob wrote:
| This grandmaster's twitter is much more representative as to
| what the typical Russian citizen thinks about the conflict:
|
| https://twitter.com/SergeyKaryakin
| ProAm wrote:
| I do not believe this can be classified as hatred.
| mynameishere wrote:
| That is true. Hatred by itself is inactive.
| altcognito wrote:
| Yeah, like humanity murders their neighbors? Would you prefer
| that pressure came in the form of American drones? No? Then
| what is your solution?
| dang wrote:
| Please don't argue in the flamewar style on HN. We don't want
| this site to go down in flames. This gets more important, not
| less, when the world is on fire.
|
| " _Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not
| less, as a topic gets more divisive._ "
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| shtopointo wrote:
| Yea what is the solution when the west throws sanctions but
| keeps buying Russian oil and gas? Basically bankrolling this
| invasion.
|
| Like others have said the solution to this crisis might be
| "drill baby drill" but that's unfortunately more toxic or an
| argument than a country getting bombed to the ground. I guess
| we can stomach the war but not domestic oil and gas
| production.
| altcognito wrote:
| I would definitely support stop buying Russian gas as well.
| I encourage folks to call their reps as I will. (for those
| in the states)
| epivosism wrote:
| What is the principle you're applying which results in
| punishing uninvolved, opposed people?
| endisneigh wrote:
| The solution is obviously to punish those causing the harm
| directly, no?
|
| Obviously much easier said than done. Also not sure why
| you're mentioning America here - the article is about Norway
| goto11 wrote:
| > The solution is obviously to punish those causing the
| harm directly, no?
|
| You mean direct war against Russia? That would certainly
| also cause collateral damage on innocents.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Fighting the people directly who are holding the guns
| will do less "collateral damage" than uniform
| discrimination of all Russians.
|
| I'm not a fan of violence in general, though. Ideally
| they'd find another way without killing anyone.
| goto11 wrote:
| > Fighting the people directly who are holding the guns
| will do less "collateral damage" than uniform
| discrimination of all Russians.
|
| Nato forces directly attacking Russian military in
| Ukraine would be the start of a third world war. The
| collateral damage of a direct war between Nato and Russia
| would be unfathomable.
| eckesicle wrote:
| What an interesting discussion this has sparked. (I'd like to
| preface what I'm about to write with stating that I'm a pretty
| big fan of Grischuk's, and I've followed his games for a few
| years)
|
| I'd like to offer a counterpoint to the opinion that sanctions
| should not affect regular citizens of Russia (or her chess
| players). The societies we live in, are a sum total of all of us
| citizens. We share culpability in the actions of our leaders.
|
| Some people are given a much worse hand, being born into
| countries of dictatorship, poor education, or poverty, but in the
| end we are collectively responsible for the actions of our
| societies.
|
| Taking the stance that those who do nothing, or those who are
| ignorant, are innocent means that we also take away their
| humanity, and their agency. It is horrific to see videos of the
| young Russian soldiers who have been forced to go to war. But
| they are not innocent. This war is theirs, and their parents',
| and their grandparents'. They let it come to this. Diluted
| responsibility is still responsibility. These are not the actions
| of one man in Vladimir Putin, they are the actions of millions
| active participants. The costs may be great to break this cycle.
| A soldier in mutiny may be shot, but again, it is a consequence
| of millions of people doing nothing for decades. Russia and
| Russians have sleepwalked into this.
|
| Of course, this is nothing about Russians in particular. Russia
| is just the flavour of the month. There are examples throughout
| history in all regions of the world where passivity of the many,
| leads to a tyranny from the few.
|
| It is easy for me to say this here, from the comfort of my sofa.
| But I'd like to believe that I would have acted for my principles
| well before a situation like this could have ever developed, if
| only to serve as a role model to my son. You fight for your
| beliefs, or you flee. Or perhaps the romantic ideals are dead.
|
| Niemollers poem comes to mind.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
| amelius wrote:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/t0av3a/this_may_not_...
| buzzdenver wrote:
| It is a sucky situation without any perfect solutions. Banning
| all Russian athletes is a clear decision. Judging everyone based
| on their individual reactions to the invasion is just not a
| scalable solution, and probably also puts those who speak out in
| greater danger.
| bloak wrote:
| > Banning all Russian athletes is a clear decision.
|
| Yes, it would be clear if you define "Russian". Do you mean
| everyone who currently holds a Russian passport? Everyone who
| has at some point held a Russian passport? What about someone
| who used to have a Soviet passport with their nationality
| recorded in it as "Russian" but who didn't live in Russia? What
| about people who used to have a Soviet passport and lived in
| Russia but with a different nationality in their documents?
|
| (Apparently Russian passports up until around 1997 had a
| "nationality" field, like the old Soviet passports, so you
| could have a Russian passport with your nationality recorded as
| something other than Russian. Presumably you could officially
| be a Ukrainian citizen of Russia, for example. It wouldn't
| surprise me if some of the other former Soviet states also
| record nationality so you might be able to have a passport from
| Kazakhstan or Latvia that says "Russian" in it. I would hope,
| however, that nobody is seriously thinking of banning
| "Russians" while defining "Russians" to include people who have
| never had either a Soviet or a Russian passport.)
|
| EDIT: I would guess that you'd probably want to define
| "Russian" for these purposes as someone who currently has a
| Russian passport, but perhaps it's not totally obvious that
| that's the right answer?
| buzzdenver wrote:
| Any chess players who played under the Russian flag before
| the invasion. I don't know the exact details in chess, but in
| most sports you have to declare a country when participating
| in top level sports. For example dual citizens cannot just
| switch between playing for any country's national team that
| they are a citizen of.
| bloak wrote:
| Cannot "just" switch? What's that mean, exactly? Surely
| there is some kind of a procedure for people to change
| their "sports" nationality if they really have emigrated
| and so on?
|
| (You might think of having a rule that you can only change
| your "sports" nationality if you "renounce" your previous
| citizenship, but it many cases it's not possible to
| "renounce" citizenship: you can let your passport expire,
| but whatever condition, such as place of birth, allowed you
| to apply for that passport in the first place would still
| exist so you would continue to have the option of receiving
| a passport for the previous country if you ever wanted to
| apply for one. Moreover, it would be impossible for you to
| prove you hadn't done that because countries do not, as a
| rule, issue documents to certify that a given person does
| not have a valid passport!)
| tromp wrote:
| > But just taking the yachts without true due process?
|
| They're not. They're preventing the yacht from being moved or
| sold or serviced. It remains his property, and he's free to spend
| time on it.
| sneak wrote:
| Perhaps we can take this time to stop having competitors in
| international competitions play under a national flag, as if they
| are property of a nation. The place one is born frequently has no
| bearing on one's personal identity.
|
| To always be associated with one's nationality (which we
| generally do not get to choose) seems exhausting and rude.
| shtopointo wrote:
| What's with all these cancellations of Russian citizens?
|
| Surely this is not going to look good at the end of this war, and
| it'll just be more propaganda for the Russian gov't to use -
| "look, the west doesn't care about you".
|
| Is this just "cancel culture" exposed in a different area?
| [deleted]
| roveo wrote:
| Yeah, I think this time period will be called "The Great
| Cancelling of Russia" in the history books.
| [deleted]
| slg wrote:
| Sanctions are often universal rather than person specific.
| Grischuk isn't being banned for his specific political beliefs.
| He is being banned as an action against his country. Some of the
| ways we punish that country are by punishing its people. It
| doesn't mean the people receiving that punishment are guilty of
| anything, it is just the method of putting pressure on that
| country's government to reverse course. This is true of basically
| all sanctions against Russia whether is is something symbolic
| like preventing athletes from competing under a Russian flag,
| something general like trade sanctions, or something very
| specific such as seizing a yacht of an oligarch. These all hurt
| specific people in varying ways that isn't proportional with
| those people's personal politics or guilt in the actions of the
| Russian government.
| [deleted]
| postalrat wrote:
| So there is no reason Alexander Grischuk should comment about
| the conflict. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose.
| slg wrote:
| It is questionable morally to only comment on this situation
| in a way designed to personally benefit you.
| rosndo wrote:
| Note that this post isn't really about Grischuk, rather the
| author is pissed about sanctions on Russian oligarchs.
|
| The last paragraph is incredibly revealing:
|
| > if those individuals are found guilty, and the process
| generates yacht seizure as the appropriate remedy, bring it on.
| But just taking the yachts without true due process? Nein, Danke.
|
| This is a criticism of the overall sanctions regime disguised as
| something else entirely. This person believes that Putins buddies
| assets should be left untouched.
| jstx1 wrote:
| Not sure why the title is about Grischuk specifically, Norway
| Chess banned all Russian players. Which sucks given that many of
| these players have spoken up against what Russia is doing. Seems
| like they're being penalized unnecessarily.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| The country is being punished. Countries are made up of people.
| In all likelihood no Russian will be untouched by these
| sanctions. The secondary motivation is that other players might
| drop out in protest. Look at what just happened to the
| Paralympics. The plan from on high was to keep the Russian
| team. It looks like it was complaints from the other athletes
| complaining that reversed decision.
| amelius wrote:
| Karpov and Karjakin support Putin.
| jstx1 wrote:
| Sure, and Nepo, Grischuk, Svidler etc. don't. Norway Chess
| treats these two groups the same.
| pastor_bob wrote:
| are they supposed to vet individuals with a twitter litmus
| test? That, in some sense, seems worse.
| jstx1 wrote:
| Some options:
|
| 1. Don't ban anyone.
|
| 2. Ban only players who have publicly supported Putin and
| the invasion of Ukraine (like Karjakin has).
|
| 3. Ban all Russian because they were born in the wrong
| country.
|
| You're saying that 3 is better than 2, and I can't agree
| because in option 3 you're banning innocent people for
| reasons completely out of their control.
| amelius wrote:
| Maybe 3 can lead to important people changing
| nationalities. Which would be super embarrassing for
| Russia.
| [deleted]
| somenameforme wrote:
| Grischuk is a special personality who most of any chess
| enthusiast will know. This is like banning a Michael Jordan
| style personality - charismatic, charming, and a world class
| player on top. And he does this all in his own sort of unique
| deadpan style package. His demeanor and comments from the video
| in this thread are **EXTREMELY** out of character for him,
| emphasizing how much this is all clearly personally affecting
| him.
|
| This is an absolutely stupid decision, and an injustice.
|
| Two wrong don't make a right and two million wrongs most
| certainly don't.
| toxik wrote:
| The logic is simple.
|
| If Ukrainians can't play, then neither should Russians.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| That is simple logic! So why are Russians being banned,
| considering Ukrainians _can_ play in the tournament?
| roveo wrote:
| Persecuting Russians who oppose the invasion, who fled Russia
| and went to the West because they don't want to be associated
| with the regime, is just plain stupid.
|
| These people are actually your allies and a very valuable
| resource (intellectual, economic, political). Some of them
| risked their lives supporting opposition, cried for sanctions
| for years while your politicians benefitted from the regime's
| corruption and you did nothing. And now you're persecuting them
| like they're accomplices.
| throwaway5752 wrote:
| Russian nationals and teams have been removed from FIFA, IHL, and
| many other competitions. It isn't fair, but it isn't fair that
| Ukraine has had its sovereignty violated by an unprovoked
| invasion.
|
| It is intrinsically biased to vet individuals based on their
| personal political beliefs, that seems like it would be worse. So
| the alternatives are to allow Russian nationals / national teams
| or to not allow them. These are extraordinary circumstances so I
| reluctantly support exclusions, and am deeply saddened by them.
|
| It would be so beneficial to everyone if this horrible invasion
| ceased and the Russian army withdrew from Ukraine. They should
| stop killing innocent people for the goal of territorial
| expansion, and then the world can renormalize as quickly as
| possible.
| voakbasda wrote:
| This sounds like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Zero
| tolerance is indistinguishable from intolerance.
| sethbannon wrote:
| For those curious, Alexander Grischuk did put out a fairly strong
| statement of condemnation of the invasion:
| https://worldchess.com/news/all/alexander-grischuk-on-the-ru...
|
| Pretty brave of him.
| throwaway5752 wrote:
| It absolutely is brave of him, and really commendable. The
| bravery of a large part of the Russian citizenry who have so
| much to lose by speaking up is inspiring.
| rvz wrote:
| Looks like Norway Chess could not distinguish between the
| individual's view vs the views of the Russian Government and
| did an over-reactionary blanket ban on any Russian which is
| beyond stupid, even though he condemned it.
|
| Does that mean if say, Garry Kasparov was to play against
| another chess player, he should be banned even though he also
| condemned the invasion? Quite ridiculous tbh.
|
| Even Russian cats are banned [0], they don't have a view of the
| Russian governments actions on the invasion either and have
| nothing to do with it, except _' being from Russia'_.
|
| Of course from them, there's no redemption. Anything Russian
| thrown into the lost and banned.
|
| To Downvoters: You do realise you can be Russian and be against
| the Russian government and condemn the whole invasion right?
|
| [0] https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1499289953443930113
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Frankly I'm getting tired of all the psyops flood. This helps
| nil because they're only inconveniencing Alexander, not the
| Russian government, their military or their oligarchy. Of all
| the sports, I would have thought chess would be much less prone
| to politics because chess players are almost free agents.
| ak217 wrote:
| This is absolutely untrue. Russian chess has always been used
| by the Russian state as a propaganda vehicle, similarly to
| Olympic sports. And the chess players are hardly free agents
| as long as they or their families are based in Russia.
| TomGullen wrote:
| > Of all the sports, I would have thought chess would be much
| less prone to politics because chess players are almost free
| agents.
|
| Are you at all aware of the history of chess?!?
| mathisonturing wrote:
| Please share for those uninitiated like me
| tpm wrote:
| Fischer - Spassky 1972
| buzzy_hacker wrote:
| World Chess Championship 1972 was widely viewed as a
| proxy for the Cold War
| Someone wrote:
| Many people think that, in the time of the USSR, Russian
| chess players conspired to make sure a Soviet player won
| tournaments.
|
| For example, they would try harder to beat strong non-
| Soviet players than to beat strong Soviet players, would
| throw away games to give a Soviet player more points,
| would offer a draw very soon to give a Soviet player time
| to rest/prepare for theirnext matig, etc.
|
| There's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Ch
| ampionship_1948#...
| dandanua wrote:
| It does nothing. It's a statement for the west audience. He
| can't say the same in Russian for the Russian audience loudly.
| Because in this case he will be put in jail for years. Wake up,
| Russia is a fascists state. Which is on the blood run.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Forbidding him to play chess also won't stop a single bullet
| or ruble destined to their war. This sudden Russian = Evil
| attitude is nonsensical, the Russian government and its
| oligarchy are the real evil, and they don't care for chess.
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