[HN Gopher] RIPE NCC executive board resolution on provision of ...
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RIPE NCC executive board resolution on provision of critical
services
Author : gearnode
Score : 40 points
Date : 2022-03-01 12:59 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ripe.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ripe.net)
| causi wrote:
| To quote Martin Luther King Jr,
|
| "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who in a
| period of moral crisis maintain their neutrality. There comes a
| time when silence becomes betrayal."
| 4cao wrote:
| Seems this quote is originally attributed to Dante Alighieri
| (from _The Divine Comedy_ ):
| https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/01/14/hottest/
| zmgsabst wrote:
| constpetrov wrote:
| Sorry, shall Red Cross or Doctors Without Borders also withdraw
| from Russia and stop acting humane and neutral because of evil
| and inhumane deeds of Russian state and military?
|
| Ukrainian medics are treating wounded Russian troops, who came
| to kill and damage.
| causi wrote:
| _Sorry, shall Red Cross or Doctors Without Borders also
| withdraw from Russia and stop acting humane and neutral
| because of evil and inhumane deeds of Russian state and
| military?_
|
| Yes. Redirect those resources to Ukraine.
| joshuakelly wrote:
| I strongly support a universal terrestrial communications
| protocol. In many ways, that's not the internet of today - but
| it's the internet that will be.
|
| Have courage for principles in the face of an overwhelming
| preference cascade - they will serve you (and your spirit) better
| in the long run than retreating exactly when they matter.
| MetricExpansion wrote:
| Of course disconnecting Russia from the internet isn't on the
| table, but if they did, perhaps a silver lining is that the
| cybersecurity situation could be greatly improved.
| rvz wrote:
| Essentially they are taking a neutral stance:
|
| > It is crucial that the RIPE NCC remains neutral and does not
| take positions with regard to domestic political disputes,
| international conflicts or war.
|
| > Failure to adhere to this approach would jeopardise the very
| model that has been key to the development of the Internet in our
| service region.
| N19PEDL2 wrote:
| Out of curiosity, what could RIPE NCC do if it decided not to
| be neutral and to side with Ukraine?
|
| I could imagine it can withdraw all the IPs assigned to Russia
| and Belarus. What would be the consequences if so? Perhaps the
| collapse of the whole Internet in Russia and Belarus, as ISPs
| will not be able to provide their services and all websites
| hosted there will see their URLs being disconnected from their
| IPs?
| xfer wrote:
| As long there are cables connecting them, they will be fine.
| Whatever RIPE can do to isolate russia can be done by their
| peering partners, russia might do it themselves.
| ignaloidas wrote:
| If they'd manage to convince other ISP's to drop any BGP
| sessions with Russia, it probably means a separation of
| Russian internet from the world, and that would probably make
| more harm than good in the bigger picture.
| mdoms wrote:
| I have seen a lot of Russian apologists on HN claim that
| literally every single proposed non-military intervention
| "will do more harm than good". Every single one.
|
| The fact is that the people of Russia need to feel
| incredible pressure. Their lives must become incredibly
| difficult. Unbearable even. It's the cleanest way out of
| this.
| the_duke wrote:
| European countries are also keen to avoid a point of no
| return.
|
| If Russia feels too much pressure and goes into complete
| isolation from the West there is nothing too lose anymore
| and the conflict can easily escalate beyond Ukraine.
|
| US/Europe want to avoid this due to the huge disruption
| it would bring economically (gas shortages etc) and the
| end of any hope for a diplomatic resolution.
|
| I'd personally support more measures, but it's not as
| clear cut as one might assume.
|
| We still have to share a continent, and pushing Russia
| into the arms of China can have huge long lasting
| ramifications.
| pjc50 wrote:
| The payment sanctions are hitting hard. The large drop in
| the value of the rouble will spike living costs. Western-
| connected Russians can see what's going on. And, of
| course, let's not forget that (by Ukranian estimates)
| several thousand Russians have been killed already.
| They've lost more people than 9/11 to this insanity.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| And that's with the SWIFT sanctions already being
| structured in a way to shape the impact towards companies
| and rich Russians.
| salawat wrote:
| You really don't get how suddenly having a world actor
| doing whatever the hell they want with the IP space would
| play havoc with the rest of the internet?
|
| Mmmmkay. Bit much on the blowing up the house to put out
| the fire. Personally, there are still a few nuts that
| deserve to flourish over there. SciHub being one of my
| chief concerns.
| logifail wrote:
| > SciHub being one of my chief concerns
|
| I am literally in the middle of making another backup of
| my copy of Scihub, this time to LTO tape.
| the_duke wrote:
| Well, no. They would be cut off from other countries/ISPs
| that drop the BGP routes.
|
| But Russia could just allocate IPs as they see fit inside
| their network and coordinate with friendly countries on
| routing arrangements. Although things would obviously get
| difficult for third parties if the IPs are assigned to other
| entities.
|
| It would be a huge disruption though.
| [deleted]
| Fice wrote:
| Disruption of the Internet service will be very damaging to
| Russian anti-war protests.
| virtuallynathan wrote:
| RIPE doesn't really have the power to withdraw assigned IPs,
| the Russian ISPs can just keep announcing them. Perhaps they
| could break their RPKI data so their prefixes would be
| dropped as invalid by those checking signatures (I would
| consider this a misuse of RPKI), but they would still mostly
| work.
| gruez wrote:
| This is in contrast to what ukraine has been requesting, which is
| for ICANN to drop .ru from root servers, and for RIPE to
| deallocate IP address space.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30509567
| pjc50 wrote:
| Look, RIPE have been neutral in every conflict so far in their
| lifetime, as far as I'm aware, and for _communications_ rather
| than payment services it is actually an advantage to have a
| neutral to keep the lines of communication open. It also lets us
| talk to them and keep the flow of actual news into Russia going,
| rather than lock them in a room with their own propaganda.
|
| I understand the desire to throw everything including the kitchen
| sink at Russia, but remember that sanctions are primarily
| directed against the ordinary public of the country, and that
| cutting Russia off from RIPE is not going to stop their military.
|
| (The sheer suddenness of the flip on Russia, and its scale,
| surprises me. We didn't do it when they shot down a passenger
| jet, or carried out several terrorist attacks with chemical
| weapons outside the country, or when they supported Assad in
| Syria, or even _the previous time Russia invaded Ukraine_.
| Perhaps if something more graduated had been done earlier we
| wouldn 't be in this position)
| rosndo wrote:
| > Look, RIPE have been neutral in every conflict so far in
| their lifetime
|
| This is the first significant conflict during the existence of
| RIPE.
| gruez wrote:
| >The sheer suddenness of the flip on Russia, and its scale,
| surprises me
|
| What do you mean by this? My impression is that most western
| countries responded mostly the same way: with more sanctions.
| Are you referring to all the voluntary actions taken by
| NGOs/corporations?
| pjc50 wrote:
| A bit of both, really: more sanctions, going all the way up
| to Iran / North Korea levels, for a country much more
| interlinked with the Western world. Contrasting to the
| lukewarm response to all the previous incidents. The NGOs
| have snowballed as well - FIFA! The notoriously money-driven
| international organisation that's holding the World Cup in a
| Gulf monarchy in a stadium built by possible forced labor has
| suddenly got a conscience? The IOC, who let Russia back in
| after a doping scandal under a weird compromise?
| Arnt wrote:
| Ukrainian pilots are in Poland right now taking delivery of
| fighter jets. That's amazingly fast.
|
| I think the key is that the Ukraine is a democracy. Quite
| recently it had a president backed by oligarchs, voted that
| one out, counted the votes fairly, and he left office (not
| without some pushing and shoving, but he left). That makes
| this like Hitler's attack on the Czech, not like shooting
| down a plane or behaving atrociously in Yemen.
| mardifoufs wrote:
| Didn't Poland deny they'll send fighter jets to Ukraine?
| Arnt wrote:
| I haven't read anything about Polish fighter jets.
|
| https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/a-look-at-some-
| military-a... suggests that an airport in Poland is being
| used as hub for deliveries from other countries to
| Ukraine.
| alangibson wrote:
| This is the right answer. Communication with those on the other
| side is a good thing. Yea they can get their message out, but
| so can dissidents on their side of the border. Those on our
| side can also get news and information in to those that don't
| support the war.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > (The sheer suddenness of the flip on Russia, and its scale,
| surprises me. We didn't do it when they shot down a passenger
| jet, or carried out several terrorist attacks with chemical
| weapons outside the country, or when they supported Assad in
| Syria, or even the previous time Russia invaded Ukraine.
| Perhaps if something more graduated had been done earlier we
| wouldn't be in this position)
|
| All those things were awful, but relatively small and often
| confusing compared to the undeniable full-scale invasion
| they're doing now. Previously they took small bites, usually
| through proxies. Now they're taking a big bite, directly.
| formerly_proven wrote:
| > (The sheer suddenness of the flip on Russia, and its scale,
| surprises me. We didn't do it when they shot down a passenger
| jet, or carried out several terrorist attacks with chemical
| weapons outside the country, or when they supported Assad in
| Syria, or even the previous time Russia invaded Ukraine.
| Perhaps if something more graduated had been done earlier we
| wouldn't be in this position)
|
| Back then I was shocked that one can just invade and annex part
| of a country in Europe and virtually nothing happens. Sure, a
| few minor sanctions here and there, but really nothing that
| would have an effect.
|
| Obviously, the idea was to to appease Russia and try to involve
| it economically in order to ultimately have it become more
| liberal and democratic. If you look at Merkels actions in
| particular, she was using that exact playbook that the US had
| been using after WW2 in Europe and Germany in particular to
| great success, but failed in China, and also Russia.
|
| So I think all previous actions have to be seen under this
| strategy. The full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and direct lies
| on the diplomatic level before that ("just an exercise, won't
| invade, calling troops back" etc.) forced the West to concede
| that appeasement and economic inter-dependency as a strategy
| failed and that if Putin's Russia succeeds with the invasion in
| Ukraine, Eastern Europe will be next. So the strategy changed
| to "Putin cannot be allowed to win in Ukraine".
| pjc50 wrote:
| > Back then I was shocked that one can just invade and annex
| part of a country in Europe and virtually nothing happens
|
| We allowed them to slice that particular bit of salami, to
| warm the frog a little; I guess they thought it was a green
| light to slice further. Heck, their plan came very very close
| to working; the assumption was that they could land commandos
| at Kyiv airport, kill Zelensky, install a puppet (as
| previously) and then muddy the waters in the news (as
| previously) while the new president of Ukraine thanks them
| for liberating his country from the Nazis.
|
| (this is a statement of what I believe their plan to have
| been, not an endorsement!)
| zarzavat wrote:
| Peace in Ukraine is not served by putting the Russian people in a
| propaganda bubble.
| jotm wrote:
| They must remain neutral. Information must flow freely. It will
| actually do more harm to Russia than the other way around. It is
| perfectly possible to block Russian assets by other means. If
| only countries realized that it should be done about a decade
| ago.
| duxup wrote:
| If they took a more critical approach to Russia, what would that
| look like?
|
| I'm skeptical of neutrality to some extent when you have a war of
| choice by a despotic country invading a democracy.... but I'm not
| sure what getting involved looks like for every organization.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| They would probably stop serving anything related to the
| Russian government and military, but hopefully not consumers or
| companies, unless said companies (like military) end up on a
| list of companies under sanctions.
| gnfargbl wrote:
| RIPE are based in the Netherlands and are subject to EU law, as a
| subsequent email from their Managing Director makes clear [1]:
|
| _> Our staff are currently reviewing the latest EU sanctions
| against Russian companies and individuals. A reminder on our
| process: If we have reason to believe that a member is subject to
| EU sanctions, we freeze their membership in accordance with our
| published procedures. Sanctioned members are unable to request
| new IP resources or submit transfer requests. However, we do not
| de-register their existing resources or terminate their Standard
| Service Agreement (SSA)._
|
| If the EU want RIPE to vary from this policy, then the EU can
| presumably instruct RIPE to do so, in the same way as SWIFT has
| been instructed to stop transacting with some Russian banks.
|
| If RIPE took action in a case like this without receiving an
| instruction from the EU, that would set a pretty poor precedent.
|
| [1] https://www.ripe.net/ripe/mail/archives/ncc-
| announce/2022-Ma...
| mdoms wrote:
| History will not look kindly on those who insisted on a neutral
| stance on the face of evil.
| sinyug wrote:
| > History will not look kindly on those who insisted on a
| neutral stance on the face of evil.
|
| In that case, let us start with the war criminals in the US and
| Europe, and their enablers in the media, technology and think
| tank space, who illegally invaded Afghanistan and countries in
| the Middle East (and Africa) and unleashed a reign of terror
| for 20 years.
| mdoms wrote:
| user-the-name wrote:
| Maybe let's start with those who are right this very moment
| killing people in their homes.
|
| We can get to the rest later. Right now, bombs are falling.
| waffleiron wrote:
| I think the point they are making is that the "get the rest
| later" never actually ever seems to happen when it comes to
| the US and EU.
| sinyug wrote:
| > "get the rest later" never actually ever seems to
| happen when it comes to the US and EU.
|
| This.
|
| The neocon-influenced US addiction to spreading freedom
| and democracy to authoritarian countries has been almost
| universally deadly to their citizens. While these
| dictators are bad, it is the unfortunate truth that their
| brutality helps keep sectarian conflict in check. Look at
| every place that has had the US gift of democracy
| forcibly shoved down its throat.
| user-the-name wrote:
| Russia is currently firing on innocent civilians in a
| sovereign country right now. Explain how what you just
| said is relevant to that.
| sinyug wrote:
| > Russia is currently firing on innocent civilians in a
| sovereign country right now. Explain how what you just
| said is relevant to that.
|
| According to a multi-decade policy followed by Western
| countries, that is not a crime.
| user-the-name wrote:
| alxlaz wrote:
| According to _you_ , is that a crime, or not?
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| It's double standards; the US is guilty of war crimes and
| has yet to face any consequences or even condemnation.
| They got away with labeling people as a category putting
| them outside of the US's own legal system, international
| law, and the Geneva Convention; oh no they're not enemy
| soldiers / POWs, they are terrorists, it's Different.
| That led to them being put in CIA black sites and Gitmo
| and made them victims of inhumane treatment and routine
| torture. Some have been incarcerated for twenty years now
| without trial. The world knows, footage from the
| humiliation and sexual abuse in gitmo came out years and
| years ago... and nothing happened.
|
| If this was e.g. a central or eastern European country,
| its leaders would be on trial in The Hague by now.
| user-the-name wrote:
| Sure. But, again. Bombs are falling on innocent people
| right now. That is more important no matter what.
| alangibson wrote:
| There's one of "these guys" in every thread.
|
| What exactly is your position? Do you really think the right
| course of action is tell the country being actively invaded
| that we'll get back to them right after we're done with a
| decade of prosecutions?
| formerly_proven wrote:
| "The US got away with illegitimate wars so we should be
| able to invade and destroy democracies in our neighborhood,
| too"
| alxlaz wrote:
| So if you think a non-neutral stance would've been warranted
| in those cases, do you also support one now?
| gsich wrote:
| Yeah Switzerland really enjoyed those angry looks after WW2.
| rosndo wrote:
| Indeed, it's terribly disheartening to see that so many are
| willing to repeat the mistakes that lead to the horrors of WW2.
| willcipriano wrote:
| nbaugh1 wrote:
| jacknews wrote:
| The correct decision, and the same should have applied to SWIFT.
|
| It's one thing for countries to ban their citizens, banks, etc
| from accessing Russia and vice versa, and putting infrastructure
| in place to enforce that.
|
| It's something else to cut Russia off from _global_ communication
| networks. Now, more than ever, we need to communicate.
|
| If you (ab)use global networks (irrespective of where they are
| domiciled) as political tools, the victims of that will strive to
| create their own networks so that they have freedom, and the
| value of the existing network is diminished.
| zmgsabst wrote:
| concerned_user wrote:
| Russia already has alternative network SPFS
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPFS), blocking them from SWIFT
| will anger the ordinary people further and they will believe
| the narrative of west being against them even more.
| [deleted]
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