[HN Gopher] I'm common as muck and spent PS150 to try a Michelin...
___________________________________________________________________
I'm common as muck and spent PS150 to try a Michelin star
restaurant
Author : NaOH
Score : 356 points
Date : 2022-02-28 17:01 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.birminghammail.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.birminghammail.co.uk)
| MajorBee wrote:
| Great article! I particularly appreciated the author's positive
| description of a good experience in a world where cynical takes
| are more dominant. Standout line for me from the article:
|
| > When my bouche was adequately amused,
| vmception wrote:
| > So when the Michelin guide came out last week, and Birmingham
| kept hold of its five stars
|
| Help me out with something
|
| Although Michelin Stars only go to 3 stars
|
| The Michelin _guide_ for an area (which includes non-Michelin
| starred restaurants) goes to 5 stars? Or does she mean that the
| city of Birmingham has a total of 5 Michelin stars in the whole
| city, of which the restaurant she went to had procured 2 of those
| stars, leaving 3 stars to be split between one or two other
| restuarants.
| nerdawson wrote:
| In the article, they describe it as being close to two stars.
| There are 5 restaurants in Birmingham with a Michelin star.
| JasonFruit wrote:
| This person writes with the intention of sounding "common as
| muck", but their intellect and sensitivity comes through clearly.
| It was really a good read.
| flossmaster wrote:
| Even at such top-tier restaurants, you probably still need to
| bring your own dental floss.
| motohagiography wrote:
| For anyone intimidated by fine dining, I'd say approach it by
| recognizing that the people involved are really excited about
| providing a memorable experience for you, and that they've worked
| years at perfecting the whole performance of it, and making you
| feel comfortable and welcome (with adult boundaries) is their
| vocation. For a lot of professional waiters and cooks, it's like
| performing music, so be interested and curious and let yourself
| be delighted. It can also be a bit overwhelming, so even though
| you have probably eaten in restaurants before, treat fine dining
| like a new experience, as they've tried to make it one.
|
| Professional staff can handle just about anything, and there's
| not much they haven't seen. The secret I think is to know before
| hand who is paying, have a sense of the budget from online menus
| before ordering so you don't have to focus on the prices, respect
| the personal boundaries of the servers, and if it's your first
| time, consider that you'd like to be welcome back.
|
| I don't think any of them have a gong they smash whenever they
| see someone using their dinner fork for the salad, and some
| decorative table settings actually break with convention and can
| be a bit mystifying, so if you don't know what's what, ask. They
| can accomodate most things, but make dietary restrictions known
| during the reservation, as they'll usually prep for them. They're
| about providing a unique experience, so if your needs aren't
| medical, consider whether you're open to a new experience before
| spending a lot on one. Fine dining restaurants employ dozens of
| people with specialized skills, and provide livings that support
| families, so go, get treated like royalty for a bit, and use it
| as a waypoint for how well you can be treated and how good
| something as simple as food can be, then use the expereince to
| enrich your life.
| mprovost wrote:
| Yes I could really feel the social anxiety coming through in
| the article. One thing that someone told me that really helped
| is that everyone is trying to help you by telling you what you
| should do. So if they ask to take your coat, say yes. They're
| telling you that it's not appropriate to keep it on the back of
| your chair. If they ask you if you want to wait at the bar, say
| yes. Basically, just keep saying yes. At this kind of place
| they aren't out to get you by sneaking in an extra charge for
| something (I could also feel her concern there). If it does
| involve money, like choosing a wine, you can also just ask for
| some advice. "What would you recommend around PS30?" The staff
| aren't going to judge you - or if they are they'll have a whole
| new round of folk to judge tomorrow and won't remember your
| face.
| Spinnaker_ wrote:
| People forgot that almost everyone who works in these
| restaurants also has a "common as muck" background. The
| fancyness is all an act they've learned. I'd say servers may
| even prefer customers like the author over another table of
| rich 60 year olds.
| bryans wrote:
| In addition to the staff tending to exceed every expectation
| and (at least outwardly) being entirely non-judgmental, the
| social atmosphere of fine dining restaurants is drastically
| different than casual dining, as well. I think people assume
| that it's going to be snobby and full of pomp and circumstance,
| but it's the exact opposite for most of these restaurants.
|
| Even before the wine gets served, everyone seems to fall under
| the intoxicating effects of knowing they're about to experience
| some of the best food and service that humans are able to
| achieve. It adds some nearly-tangible magic that puts everyone
| on the same level of childlike enthusiasm, resulting in
| extremely wealthy tables cross-chatting and mingling with once-
| in-a-lifetimers without any reservation or judgement.
| thaway2839 wrote:
| > make dietary restrictions known during the reservation
|
| This can be the difference between an Apple like "magical"
| experience and one that is still great, but nonetheless might
| be a little clunky (although, as you point out, the people
| running Michelin starred restaurants are usually people at the
| top of their profession and know how to handle these situations
| really well).
| walnutclosefarm wrote:
| For years I spent a week every month or month and a half in
| Paris. Dined at dozens of different establishments, ranging from
| street vendors to starred restaurants. The best food and
| experience were in a not-ranked-by-anyone-anywhere Lebanese place
| in the Levantine quarter, and a hole-in-the-wall that served SW
| France provincial fare. Neither was particularly expensive.
| Similarly, the best Chinese food by far that I've ever had was
| when I convinced a colleague in Shanghai (who was a native of
| Szechuan) to take me to the Szechuanese place he'd choose, out of
| all he knew about Shanghai. Of course that cost a pittance, in US
| dollars, as back in those days everything in Shanghai did. The
| food was unbelievable. Ten times better than the starred menus
| I'd had in Paris and the Cote d'Azur in France.
|
| Best sushi meal I've had, far and away, was in a place in near
| the old Tsukiji market in Tokyo. Seating for maybe 12 in the
| whole place, but plate after plate of single or double bites. But
| that one wasn't cheap - the author's 150 British pound wouldn't
| have covered the bill even a decade and a half ago when I ate
| there.
| vegancap wrote:
| I lived in Lichfield for eight years, there's some really decent
| restaurants there for sure. Not that I ever went! Surprised to
| see a Birmingham Mail article, front-page HN :D
| raspyberr wrote:
| I tried a Michelin star restaurant once and, pardon the pun, it
| left a really sour taste in my mouth. We were warned by friends
| who had been there before to eat a little something before going.
| We did and even so we were still starving throughout and after.
| It's hard to concentrate on delicate flavours and nuances when
| you're really hungry and it's 20 minutes between each spoonful of
| food for 4 hours. There were lots of other criticisms but that
| was the biggest one. I felt thoroughly dissastisfied by the end.
| youarethebest wrote:
| I've read a lot of reviews like that in Tripadvisor.
|
| I don't think you go there to feel "full".
|
| What's your obesity range atm?
| [deleted]
| bryanmgreen wrote:
| My takeaway from great meals that is restaurants are snow globes.
|
| You may not remember the food, but you'll always have the memory
| and all the events and experiences that led up to that time.
| Years later you can shake that mental snow globe and get a happy
| nostalgia trip. That's worth the money to me.
| globular-toast wrote:
| Last time I dined at a Michelin star restaurant it was about
| PS100 for two all in. About 5 courses if I remember correctly.
| That was less than ten years ago. Is PS150 for one really the
| going rate now?
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| I love how the author came in with an open mind and let herself
| be taken away by the experience. It's rare that you see an
| article that's just about enjoying the experience and not
| scrutinizing it.
|
| I've been to a few Michelin starred restaurants. For me, it's
| surprisingly inconsistent. I can have a meal that I absolutely
| adore (L'Astrance) and a meal that's merely decent (Pujol). That
| said, I try to enter each experience with an open mind. There's
| no cause for cynicism at the dinner table.
| gommm wrote:
| I'm curious, for Pujol, did you have the tasting menu or the
| omakase tacos?
|
| I'm asking because the first time I went, I had the tasting
| menu and was very disappointed, thought it was vastly
| overpriced for what it was.. I wasn't planning to return but
| had to (because I was supposed to eat there with a client of
| mine) and the second time, I had the omakase tacos and
| absolutely adored it.
|
| So, now I'm curious if you might have had the same experience I
| had with the first meal.
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| Yeah I did. I suspect you're right. It's a shame that they
| removed the tacos from the tasting menu. Perhaps I'll give it
| another shot when I'm in Mexico City again!
| Jxl180 wrote:
| I'm pretty sure there's a Michelin star food cart in Asia that is
| like $3/plate. Not every Michelin star restaurant is an expensive
| French experience.
| mhh__ wrote:
| In Europe it probably is.
|
| My home town has a very cheap Michelin-starred restaurant by
| the standards of restaurants of that calibre but it's still
| fairly pricey.
| mzi wrote:
| He has unfortunately lost his star:
|
| https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/hawker-chan-singapore...
| Umofomia wrote:
| You're probably thinking of Tim Ho Wan in Hong Kong:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Ho_Wan
| kenneth wrote:
| Tim Ho Wan and Din Tai Fund in Hong Kong both lost their
| stars. There was a stall in Singapore that also lost its.
| Kam's Roast Goose in HK also used to have one, but I don't
| recall if it still does.
| iamben wrote:
| Quick story - I used to talk to a guy that worked in my building
| quite a lot about the food we ate. He told me that growing up he
| absolutely hated food. When he went to university his housemates
| decided to go to a Michelin starred restaurant and invited him.
| After a lot of turning them down (because "what's the point, food
| is grossly overpriced, I don't care for it," etc etc), he finally
| agreed. He said "coming home that night I realised my mother was
| a terrible, terrible, _terrible_ cook. " From then on it was like
| a whole new world opened up to him...
|
| I always loved that. A) it's funny how our past experiences can
| completely (and sometimes incorrectly) shape our perceptions of
| the now. B) food can be such a wonderful thing - the smallest
| thing can make you so absolutely happy. And when someone just
| _nails it_ (simple or not!), it really is quite the experience.
| throwewey wrote:
| I have the exact opposite story: I can't really eat anywhere
| because my dad was an astonishing cook growing up. I've tried
| various places with varying amounts of stars, and nothing has
| come close to what my father used to cook.
|
| On top of that, I'm also a terrible cook so eating has become a
| chore, something that I have to do to survive.
| iamben wrote:
| Gah! Disaster! Was he a professional, or just a very good
| hobbyist?
|
| My baseline is somewhat in the middle. Mum was a good cook,
| she did everything _well_. There's always room for excellence
| and new(?) flavours, but I know what isn't good.
| jjulius wrote:
| I was kind of similar to this person. My dad worked at buffets
| and within the restaurant industry, but he always managed them
| - never cooked at them (does one actually ever cook at a
| buffet?). He prided himself on being the cook of the family but
| he only really excels at a couple of dishes. My mom's a decent
| enough cook, but just decent enough. Steaks were cooked well,
| and paired with ketchup.
|
| So, I grew up picky as hell. I'm 34, and I can still remember
| my third date with my wife when we were both 21. I ordered a
| turkey pesto sandwich and said, "with no vegetables". My then-
| barely-GF blurted out, "NO VEGETABLES!?" without even thinking
| about it, which sorta shamed me but not in a way, obviously,
| that put me off from seeing her again, lol.
|
| Turns out her dad loves to cook, and her entire family loves
| going out to eat. My restaurant experiences were, by and large,
| limited to Applebee's and other crappy chain restaurants up to
| that point in my life. So, I started giving things chances; I
| started branching out culturally while still trying to find
| meat-focused dishes within that cuisine. Eventually, we started
| eating at nicer restaurants.
|
| Going back to what I said about steaks above, I made it to my
| mid-20's absolutely hating steak. I thought people were idiots
| for loving it so much. I went to a steakhouse (Kevin Rathbun
| Steak in ATL) for my SIL's birthday one year and avoided the
| steak because of those misgivings. I opted for the lamb, and
| chose "rare" when asked how I wanted it cooked because I
| figured I'd never had anything rare and I may as well try it. I
| immediately fell in love, and ended up trying a rare steak a
| few months later. Now, I'm all about that 30+-day dry-aged,
| incredibly well-marbled ribeye!
|
| I also forced myself to stop picking everything off. Don't like
| something because of it's texture? Try a smaller piece of it
| and see if you like the taste and how that taste pairs with the
| rest of the dish. Slowly, things fell into place for me and I
| began to appreciate more. Then, we moved to the Bay Area and
| it's gigantic concentration of Michelin-level restaurants.
|
| My first Michelin joint had a tasting menu, and I told myself
| that the food at Michelin restaurants _is definitely going to
| be good_. Whatever is on that plate is going to highlight what
| makes that ingredient so good, why people like it, etc.. So my
| mantra was, "just eat it". Don't normally like it? Don't care,
| because if I'm ever going to have it at it's best, _now_ is the
| time to see what the fuss is all about.
|
| Holy shit did my world change. At this point, I'll eat
| anything. Texture is where I still struggle just a bit, but I'm
| keenly aware of what I do and don't react to in certain ways.
| So these foods can't be the focus of a dish, but I'll never shy
| away from eating them if their purpose of the dish is more
| 'complimentary', for lack of a better word. Taking this
| approach has allowed me to teach myself to appreciate the
| flavor, which then prompts me to eat it again, which gets me
| used to the texture, and ultimately gets me towards not being
| bothered so much by it.
|
| All that rambling is to say - YES, I completely understand
| where your friend is coming from and I have thoroughly enjoyed
| having a similar experience.
| notjustanymike wrote:
| Michelin starred restaurants place a lot of emphasis on ensuring
| YOU enjoy your meal. Professional service does not judge, and is
| not snooty the way movies depict.
|
| I just ate at SAGA in NYC in January; the servers were amazingly
| knowledgeable, wonderfully approachable, and ours wore a jumpsuit
| and sneakers. Not snooty, but ask about the wine and they'll
| happily share a wealth of information about the region it's from.
|
| If you leave a restaurant feeling worse because of a servers
| behavior then it's their fault, not yours.
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| I know couple of chefs at high end restaurants and they are
| good friends. They are also normal people and I don't think
| they would work at places that treat less fortunate people (say
| can only do something like this once a year, if ever) without
| respect. As long as you treat the waitstaff well and aren't
| loud and overbearing they love to have you in and enjoy the
| fine cooking. Just don't bring three screaming toddlers and
| leave $5 tip and you'll be fine if anyone is curious but hasn't
| gone on a food adventure. Myself I came from a poor upbringing
| and was pretty nervous about my first few high end restaurants
| as a 20 something with "new money".
| showerst wrote:
| This is cool! As someone who's into fine dining, a few
| thoughts/tips for people starting out:
|
| 1. Don't go into a michelin level restaurant expecting "well it's
| expensive so it should be what I normally eat but better", think
| of it as its own category of food, that happens to have a really
| high buy-in price. Lots more crazy flavors, presentation, exotic
| ingredients, etc. It's not that it has to be 'better' than the
| best $12 bbq joint you've ever been to, just different.
|
| 2. Many very high end restaurants have great lunch deals, which
| can really cut the price to try them.
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| > It's not that it has to be 'better' than the best $12 bbq
| joint you've ever been to, just different.
|
| On the one hand, no. It really, really, really does need to be
| qualitatively better food than you can get cheaply. (Especially
| for a Michelin star, the awarding of which still tends to
| somewhat resist the reality distortion field around gold-
| encrusted steaks).
|
| On the other hand, it is motivated reasoning like this kind of
| thing that gave us Jay Rayner's (wonderfully withering but
| occasionally joyful) restaurant columns in the Guardian.
|
| It's an absurdity (and a moral hazard, IMO) to ask for people's
| hard-earned money for food and then not give them food that is
| better, not just different.
|
| _(And just as I expected, I am being modded down for this --
| go for it guys)_
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| I guess that's why the word "better" is in quotes.
|
| I've never been to a fancy restaurant and been served food
| that was cooked worse. It's always been cooked better on any
| objective measure. But there are quite a lot of dishes that I
| wouldn't want to eat everyday even if I could afford to.
| Sometimes it's even been a bit lacklustre even though if you
| had to look at all the elements, it was all superbly done.
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| > I've never been to a fancy restaurant and been served
| food that was cooked worse.
|
| I have, and it's not like I make a habit of fancy
| restaurants (I'm a freelancer so I don't make a habit of
| fancy _anything_ now.)
|
| There's a lot of motivated reasoning around food and wine.
|
| People who tell me they can't cook and then cook me a meal
| are proportionately more likely to outdo the expectations
| they set than a high-end restaurant; some of the best meals
| I have had have come from people who tell me they can cook
| only three things.
|
| Coffee shops often serve coffee that tastes worse than an
| aeropress at home, but costs more than a whole month's
| worth of good beans. Home coffee "experts" who are
| surrounded by the acquisitions of their motivated reasoning
| don't improve over that aeropress either. And even
| Aeropress experts make Aeropress coffee worse with their
| optimisations.
|
| Wine tasting experts sometimes can't tell the difference
| between red and white wines in blind taste tests, and yet
| still insist that reds and whites have specific
| associations.
|
| Fans of "fine dining" are often in the same zone.
|
| Expensive meals in restaurants have a veneer of quality
| even when the food is average and the service is
| objectively worse than an Angus Steakhouse.
|
| The truth is that -- like buying your fiance a diamond ring
| -- the consumer often falls for their own motivated
| reasoning, either in making the purchase in the first place
| or post-justifying it afterwards.
|
| One thing makes food better: eating it with friends or
| loved ones. And you can do that with sandwiches on a park
| bench.
| rectang wrote:
| > _Don 't go into a michelin level restaurant expecting "well
| it's expensive so it should be what I normally eat but better",
| think of it as its own category of food, that happens to have a
| really high buy-in price. Lots more crazy flavors,
| presentation, exotic ingredients, etc._
|
| A hobby of mine is picking a neighborhood and going to every
| single eatery, from possibly-illegal hole-in-the-walls and
| popups to fast food chains to bakeries and delis to cafes to
| fine dining establishments. I think I've only been to one
| Michelin-starred restaurant though -- there aren't a lot of
| those.
|
| Restaurants have to cater to their clientele, even high-end
| ones. If you offer something creative on your menu, odds are
| there won't be a large market for it because most people want
| familiar fare. There are a lot of expensive-yet-conservative
| Italian restaurants in the US, for example -- with lots of
| patrons who love them! The chefs may chafe at the constraints,
| but running a restaurant and bringing pleasure and satisfaction
| to your customers is a different endeavor than exploring the
| possibilities of cuisine.
|
| If you want to experience unfamiliar flavors, presentations,
| and ingredients your best bet is to go to places run by and
| primarily frequented by first-generation immigrants. It's not
| that such eateries are any more adventurous -- the same
| economic forces constrain them -- but they target a clientele
| with different tastes.
|
| The 80 eateries I've visited in San Diego's City Heights
| district offered way more variety and novel-to-me fare than the
| 70 or so restaurants I checked out on a tour of downtown San
| Diego. That's because City Heights has large enclaves of
| Mexican, Vietnamese and Somali immigrants, enough to sustain
| businesses which cater primarily to the tastes of those
| enclaves.
|
| I can think of some high-end restaurants that had very
| interesting menus, but in my experience there is only a weak
| correlation between price and adventurousness. It may be
| different though for specifically Michelin-starred restaurants,
| since that's a curated list.
| programd wrote:
| > I think I've only been to one Michelin-starred restaurant
| though -- there aren't a lot of those.
|
| That's very much a function of location. The last time I
| checked here in San Francisco there were 12 Michelin
| restaurants within walking distance of where I live. I
| suspect the density in Manhatten or Vegas or Paris would be
| even higher.
|
| I should also note that there is a real difference in food
| and experience quality between one star Michelin restaurants
| and three star. At the three star joints your dates purse
| gets its own stool. I'm not even joking.
| callahad wrote:
| > _At the three star joints your dates purse gets its own
| stool. I 'm not even joking._
|
| We encountered the purse stool at a one star restaurant,
| Eipic, in Belfast. Genuinely wondered if the little stools
| were made solely for holding handbags, or if they had dual
| purposes.
| hedora wrote:
| Also, by the time you get to 3 stars, requests like this
| are taken in stride (leading to a pile of tailored dishes).
| I'm not sure where the cutoff is:
|
| "We're a party of 6 with 3 different food allergies, and
| one each of a pescetarian, vegan, vegetarian, omnivore,
| devout Jew/Muslim and devout Hindu."
|
| I only slightly exaggerate vs. personal experience.
| cercatrova wrote:
| It depends on the restaurant. Some 3 star ones will
| actually not serve you if you have dietary restrictions
| as their tasting menu is (apparently) custom made to have
| a very specific pathway of flavors. They warn you about
| this on their website before booking.
| plausibledeny wrote:
| That's cool, we had a group in Seattle do that in our
| International District many years ago and blog about it.
| http://msg150.com/
| mandevil wrote:
| Tyler Cowen's ethnic food dining guide:
| https://tylercowensethnicdiningguide.com/
|
| Suggests that, in the US at least, the ethnic enclave suburbs
| (not the richer ones or the exurbs) are often better choices
| for food than the trendy downtowns, for that very reason. I'm
| sure he's right about his home in the DC area, but NYC is its
| own thing- effectively Queens and Brooklyn function like
| suburbs in his dining cosmology.
| rectang wrote:
| Yes! Other interesting districts in San Diego are Convoy
| Street in the Kearny Mesa neighborhood and National City,
| both of which fit that description.
|
| In contrast, I went to 100+ restaurants in the Del Mar area
| (which is quite wealthy) and while it was a fun experience
| and I had lots of great food, the breadth wasn't as wide.
| Jack000 wrote:
| Michelin restaurants can be good value from a certain
| perspective. I went to a 3 star place in Japan that cost $500 a
| seat, but there were only 8 seats and two rounds a night, with
| maybe 6 people behind the counter. You do the math and they're
| not making much money.
| rodgerd wrote:
| To your first point, there was an absolute classic (https://www
| .theguardian.com/travel/2001/oct/14/foodanddrink....) where a
| Guardian food writer took his kid and their friends to Fat
| Duck. Two of the kids and the restaurant staff both enjoyed the
| experience - noting in particular that kids have far fewer
| preconceptions about what food is "ought to be like" than
| adult.
| matwood wrote:
| > Don't go into a michelin level restaurant expecting "well
| it's expensive so it should be what I normally eat but better"
|
| Very much like wine.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| I've found that many of the finer things in life, after a
| certain point of thing thing serving the purpose well, it's
| more about variety and taste than one is objectively better
| than the other. Will a $1000 guitar sound and feel way better
| than a $100 guitar? Absolutely. Will a $10,000 guitar sound
| and feel way better than that $1000 guitar? Probably not,
| more just different. Is a Bugatti Chiron "faster" than a
| Pagani Huayra ? Sure, in some regards, but they're entirely
| different cars made to do different things and feel very very
| different, despite both being "hypercars".
|
| Art is subjective after a certain point of being well-crafted
| and well-executed. Most food is more or less for utility and
| much less for art. Fine dining is much more art than utility,
| just like so many other things in life.
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| > Will a $1000 guitar sound and feel way better than a $100
| guitar? Absolutely.
|
| Nope. Not _absolutely_. Not even close.
| williamdclt wrote:
| Come on, that's just being contrarian. Sure there's going
| to be anecdotal exceptions here and there, but yes I'd
| absolutely expect almost any $1000 guitar to be better in
| sound and feel than almost any $100 guitar.
| DrBazza wrote:
| In the UK, at least, one Michelin star (or AA rosettes) is more
| expensive than a regular restaurant but not by a large margin.
| In fact, in my area, it's entirely possible to spend the same
| at a 'regular' restaurant. The only difference is wine.
| jointpdf wrote:
| My experience with a Michelin star restaurant (Maydan, in DC)
| _was_ "what I normally eat, but better"--much, _much_ better.
| The menu items themselves were not exotic (hummus, beet puree,
| pickled vegetables, ribeye, chicken kabobs), but the execution
| and complex cascades of flavors were on a whole new level of
| reality. The prices /portions are generous as well (e.g. $10
| for the best hummus you've ever tasted, $50 for a cut of ribeye
| that would cost $30 at Whole Foods).
| showerst wrote:
| I guess I should've clarified that I was thinking more of
| tasting menus on really _different_ comment. There's plenty
| of places (e.g. maydan, rose's, taro in DC) that have great
| but perfectly recognizable menus too.
|
| On the other hand I haven't had it in me to blow the money on
| pineapple and pearls, but if I did i'd want to see something
| weird =).
| zdragnar wrote:
| Maybe my expectations are off, but I would not expect to find
| a fantastic ribeye that cheap outside of one or two places I
| can think of (one of which is in a small village of <3000
| people and daily has 2-3 hour waits, no reservations).
|
| Good ribeye, sure, but not steakhouse fantastic ribeye. Seems
| like a good find indeed!
| tssva wrote:
| Rooster & Owl in DC has for the most part has spins on
| recognizable food and is $75 for a 4 course meal. Each course
| has a selection of 4 dishes and the food is served family
| style, so going with a group of 4 allows everyone to try the
| entire menu.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Would add that in some places, particularly in New York, there
| are affordable Michelin-rated restaurants, _e.g._ Casa Enrique
| [1] or Casa Mono & Bar Jamon [2].
|
| [1] https://casaenriquelic.com/dinner-1
|
| [2] https://casamononyc.com/menu/#dessert
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| Interesting perspective - never thought of it that way. Seems
| almost obvious.
| silisili wrote:
| These are really good points, and mirror my experience - though
| we are opposite - I'm definitely not into fine dining.
|
| I didn't get point 1 til years later, after more reading. I'd
| tried uber fancy restaurants a few times, and each time left
| disappointed and really almost feeling cheated. Odd flavors (to
| me), small portions, a lot of art on the plate. I never really
| judged it based on anything but the value and taste, and if you
| do that, you'll likely be disappointed as I was.
|
| I guess I realized I'm just a simple guy who likes common
| foods, but hey, we're all different.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Value is too subjective to be discussed, but if we settle for
| "normal" portions at less than 300 bucks a meal, restaurants
| pushing to the top tier on taste also end up in the Michelin.
| If you're into traditional "at home", no nonsense cuisine, I
| don't think you'll be disappointed by the ones making it to
| the list.
|
| Perhaps the deception is on thinking that any "excellent"
| restaurant will be pleasing to everyone who can afford it. If
| you don't like oysters the best oyster spot in the world will
| be pretty meh, same way if you're not into trendy stuff, the
| price tag won't make it magically work for you.
| regulation_d wrote:
| Point 1 is very similar in high end coffee. Sometimes very
| expensive coffee in the US is substantially better than what
| you get in the grocery store, but often it's just much
| different. It might taste like blueberries or strawberry candy
| or wine. Not necessary better, just weird, hopefully in a
| whimsical way.
| ethanbond wrote:
| Coffee is definitely one of the items that I've found the
| lowest correlation between price and perceived quality (as a
| quasi-distinct measure than my own subjective enjoyment).
| Even among wines, things on the expensive end that I really
| don't personally like, I can at least convince myself that
| there's a reason it has the price that it is. Coffee: no
| discernible relationship.
| asah wrote:
| I used to think that about everything that was "better than
| Starbucks" and then I had fresh civet coffee from a legit
| place in HCM.
|
| It's... the sh*t!
| regulation_d wrote:
| I spend a fair amount of money on coffee, but I know what
| styles and roast levels I like, and I know roasters that do
| those things well. If you like weird varietals processed
| with some experimental anaerobic processing method and a
| light roast, Onyx and Black & White, for example, both do
| really well with those styles. And they aren't cheap, but I
| enjoy them. If you favor medium to dark roasts, then Dunkin
| Donuts brand coffee in the grocery is pretty darn good.
| munificent wrote:
| Point 1 is an excellent observation.
|
| By analogy, don't think of fine dining as a big-budget
| blockbuster film. It's not better than other movies by having
| the biggest setpieces, the most explosions, the hottest stars,
| and the loudest soundtracks. It's not just more more more.
|
| Think of it more like an arthouse film. Fine dining should be
| some of the _best_ food you 've ever had, but it should also be
| _different_ from what you 've had. Since much of their
| clientele eats out often, they are seeking not just quality but
| novelty.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| +1 on novelty / variety; fine dining restaurants also change
| their entire menus a lot and may only keep a few signature
| dishes between menus. Part of that is due to availability of
| things and what is in season, part of it is whimsy / novelty
| / the chef trying out different things.
| tikhonj wrote:
| > _well it 's expensive so it should be what I normally eat but
| better_
|
| When I went to Chez Panisse for the first time--not Michelin
| starred, but still well-regarded--I didn't know what to expect.
| What surprised me was that it _was_ just "what I normally eat"
| but _better_. Not fancy, not exotic, not flashy; at a surface
| level, it was less interesting than food I 've had at "normal"
| restaurants... but it was somehow just _better_. It surprised
| me because I hadn 't realize just how much room there was to
| improve on the details and execution of, well, "normal"
| cooking.
|
| I've occasionally seen something similar with codebases. Most
| code does what it needs to do, more or less, and hopefully it's
| not awful, but there are all kinds of sharp edges,
| inconsistencies, extra sources of friction--when I need to make
| a change, it's doable, but even the happy path has a bit of
| extra friction here and there, things that are clearly missing
| or in the wrong place or a bit hacky. And then, once in a
| while, I run into code that doesn't have those problems.
| Everything just somehow comes together; when I need to do
| something, there's an obvious way of doing it; when there's
| something odd in the design, it ends up addressing something I
| hadn't thought about. Somebody wrote the code with experience,
| attention to detail and the will to do quality work for its own
| sake. I don't know if it's the same with cooking, but with this
| kind of code, it generally took _less_ time and effort for the
| people writing it than I 'd expect from teams working on
| messier codebases.
|
| Running into things like this is a visceral reminder that even
| "normal" things--normal food, normal code--can just be
| _better_. _A lot._
| throwawayboise wrote:
| One thing restaurants will do that most people at home don't
| do is use a lot more salt and fat. Salt tastes good, fat
| tastes good.
|
| I don't know Chez Panisse but for example if you want to
| improve the taste of pasta you cook at home add a tablespoon
| or two of salt to the water when you cook it.
| balfirevic wrote:
| Who cooks pasta without adding salt?
| munchbunny wrote:
| I'll do it if I know the sauce is already fairly salty
| due to its ingredients (cured pork, for example), in
| order to leave some room for adjustment later. Under-
| salted food is much easier to fix than over-salted.
| asdff wrote:
| Part of it too is that restaurants at a certain price point
| have to be pragmatic with the dishes they are putting out.
| That means recipes are economized so ingredients are shared,
| and cheaper alternatives available from restaurant
| wholesalers are preferred. There's also the time; if you can
| make a 3 hour dish take 10 minutes to make you will take
| those compromises.
|
| This actually comes into play with tacos a lot. In LA at
| least, some of the best tasting meat, specialty stuff like
| birria with actual goat stewed for hours with love with
| traditional techniques perhaps, is not going to be easily
| found in any restaurant. You will find it served in tin foil
| or styrofoam off a folding table under a canopy tent on the
| sidewalk. They start stewing the meat on site hours before
| even making their first sale, which might even be well after
| the sun has set. The restaurant model cannot afford this
| overhead much less at the pricepoint offered by these vendors
| (usually like $1.50 a taco) thanks to stuff like rent and
| more stringent health protocols that would condemn any home
| kitchen you've eaten out of in your life, so food like that
| doesn't even really exist in the marketplace otherwise.
| CydeWeys wrote:
| > In LA at least, some of the best tasting meat, specialty
| stuff like birria with actual goat stewed for hours with
| love with traditional techniques perhaps, is not going to
| be easily found in any restaurant. You will find it served
| in tin foil or styrofoam off a folding table under a canopy
| tent on the sidewalk. They start stewing the meat on site
| hours before even making their first sale, which might even
| be well after the sun has set. The restaurant model cannot
| afford this overhead
|
| Huh? Are you under the impression that restaurants don't
| spend hours prepping their food? It takes a good pizzeria
| three _days_ to make their dough. You couldn 't do that at
| a roadside stand.
|
| I can't think of a single dish that you can make at a
| roadside stand but not in a restaurant with significantly
| better facilities. You're making a correlation vs causation
| error here -- yes, there are some types of food that you
| will more typically encounter in food-truck-type situations
| (e.g. in NYC that'd be something like lamb over rice with
| white and red sauce), but that's not because restaurants
| _can 't_ do it. There's just market segmentation.
| robrenaud wrote:
| > I can't think of a single dish that you can make at a
| roadside stand but not in a restaurant with significantly
| better facilities.
|
| Put a price constraint on it, and you probably agree with
| the parent poster.
| asah wrote:
| Lol, chez panisse only seems "normal" because _everybody_
| copied them. You 're eating OG and if it's somehow-better
| it's because they've perfected the unique farm-to-table
| supply chain.
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| > Running into things like this is a visceral reminder that
| even "normal" things--normal food, normal code--can just be
| better. A lot.
|
| Right. I am away from home at the moment, staying at a house
| which doesn't have all the things I need. Like, there are
| only tiny frying pans, there aren't any
| spices/condiments/salt etc.
|
| So I have been buying the minimal things I need to cook food
| I like, and working with what is there.
|
| I took a tin of cheap, mass-produced fish out of the cupboard
| that I did not buy and was probably a mistaken purchase
| (everything in that cupboard needs to be used up), and on the
| basis that wasting food is a crime, I cooked it and added the
| simplest things alongside; some broccoli and a baguette.
|
| The meal I ate is one of the best things I have ever eaten,
| and it has improved my relationship with food, overnight.
|
| On that basis, if I go to an expensive restaurant and do not
| get food that is qualitatively better and not just
| _different_ and _in its own category_ , then I am being taken
| for a fool.
|
| So I am glad to hear that your Chez Panisse experience was
| what it was.
| gowld wrote:
| > On that basis, if I go to an expensive restaurant and do
| not get food that is qualitatively better and not just
| different and in its own category, then I am being taken
| for a fool.
|
| Why?
|
| Does novelty have no value for you?
|
| The Michelin Star restaurant isn't just "different", it's a
| difference that is _hard to find_.
|
| Michelin Star ratings:
|
| 1 Star: Worth a stop when you are driving.
|
| 2 Star: Worth a detour when you are driving.
|
| 3 Star: Worth a dedicated trip.
|
| Price is, as with everything, supply vs demand.
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| > Why?
|
| > Does novelty have no value for you?
|
| Absurd.
|
| What kind of "novelty" is there for _you_ in eating food
| at an expensive restaurant that is not qualitatively
| better than that which you can buy more cheaply? That
| isn't novelty, it's foolishness.
|
| I don't need Michelin star ratings explained to me, I
| know all about them. I also know that people make dumb
| decisions when their aspirations, jealousies and FOMO are
| tickled.
| cercatrova wrote:
| Better is hard to define, as the root parent of this
| thread says, as you cannot directly compare, say, BBQ, to
| a molecular gastronomy meal; they are simply in different
| classes, "better" cannot be compared.
|
| That being said, if you like the food, then eat it, and
| if not, don't, regardless of whether it's Michelin or
| not.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| Better is subjective and of course a person can compare
| two different types of restaurants.
|
| You do it every time you go out to determine where you
| want to go. You compare the two based on value, taste,
| frequency, and atmosphere.
|
| All subjective of course, but it's a personal preference
| you can compare.
|
| If the food was awful, the atmosphere or "novelty" was
| uncomfortable/unenjoyable/mediocre, the price was high in
| option A, you will feel cheated and would have rather had
| gone to option B. That experience will influence future
| decisions when comparing and deciding on a place.
| bduerst wrote:
| This is probably (partially) attributable to the IKEA-
| effect [1], where people perceive better quality in the
| things that they partially create.
|
| Also one of the joys of cooking is that you are
| experiencing the immediate fruits your own labor. There's
| no prolonged scrum meetings, release cycles, delayed
| launches, etc. It such a simple feedback loop that it's a
| great way to give yourself short-term gratification. I've
| found even food prep is cathartic to a degree.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| > This is probably (partially) attributable to the IKEA-
| effect [1], where people perceive better quality in the
| things that they partially create.
|
| Or it just tasted nice ;-)
| dathinab wrote:
| There is a saying that the best way to judge the level of a
| restaurant is by checking how well the "common"/"normal"
| meals are done.
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| That's a good example of a slightly different style of fine
| dining. A restaurant like Chez Panisse is in the vein of
| classic dishes, great execution. Similar restaurants are Via
| Carota and Osteria Mozza. You're not gonna get high concept
| molecular gastronomy at these restaurants.
|
| Another similar category are top notch sushi restaurants. An
| omakase at a very nice sushi restaurant is not going to have
| that different of a setup from an omakase at another
| restaurant. What elevates the sushi is the technique, the
| quality of the fish, and the quality of the rice.
| Surprisingly, the rice is one of the more noticeable aspects.
| In a good sushi restaurant the rice should fall apart in your
| mouth with the perfect lukewarm temperature.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| Yeah, I think it really depends on the place.
|
| One of my favorite meals at a fairly expensive (but
| definitely not Michelin-level) restaurant was a roast
| chicken. I got it reluctantly, why should I spend this much
| on roast chicken? But there wasn't anything else on the
| limited menu I wanted, of choice of like three mains.
|
| It was the best roast chicken I've ever had, like _notably_.
| I still have no idea how you make roast chicken taste that
| good. I still remember it, honestly in part because of the
| surprise.
|
| There are also other places where I've had delicious things
| I've never seen anywhere else, sure.
| spoonjim wrote:
| Most of creating a roast chicken that good is in sourcing
| the chicken. Breeds optimized for flavor rather than
| economics, fed a chicken's natural diet, grown at the
| chicken's natural pace, and handled carefully, slaughtered
| shortly before cooking.
|
| There is technique like injecting the brine and managing
| the smoke flavors but that's like 10% of the work of
| raising the chicken.
| Xcelerate wrote:
| > well it's expensive so it should be what I normally eat but
| better
|
| During the early stages of the pandemic when a lot of
| restaurants switched to carry-out only, Lazy Bear (a two
| Michelin star restaurant in SF) started Camp Commissary, where
| you could pick up different food items and meals to go. My wife
| isn't into fine dining and would never eat the main tasting
| menu at their restaurant (which I had once before the
| pandemic), but she absolutely loved the to go items, because
| they were essentially what you describe: normal types of food
| cooked by Michelin star chefs (maybe with a fancy twist, like
| Morel mushrooms on a grilled cheese or fermented local
| vegetables).
|
| I had the best pimento cheese chicken biscuit, duck sandwich,
| pop tarts, blackberry cocktails, snickerdoodle cookie, pea
| soup, lamb chops, tomato pie, pasta, and pork & beans of my
| life. There's got to be a market for regular food cooked REALLY
| well. We spent tons on that place, and it was worth every penny
| (well, except one of the salads, which had like two pieces of
| lettuce and a grape).
| lostapathy wrote:
| > 1. Don't go into a michelin level restaurant expecting "well
| it's expensive so it should be what I normally eat but better",
| think of it as its own category of food
|
| This cuts both ways. Cheaper, unique or local places shouldn't
| be thought of as the same food you're used to just a different
| place.
|
| Like if you order an omelette at Waffle House expecting
| something like you make at home, you're gonna be disappointed.
| But that's not what it's supposed to be, it just shares a name
| with that you're used to.
| thaway2839 wrote:
| At some places you may even want to set aside money to have a
| cheeseburger at a fast food joint afterwards.
|
| But that's not a bad thing. Filling you up may be part of a
| fine dining experience, but it isn't necessarily so, and it's
| the least interesting part of it.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > It's not that it has to be 'better' than the best $12 bbq
| joint you've ever been to, just different.
|
| Well said!
|
| Also, don't be the guy who goes in on a mission to dunk on the
| expensive restaurant. That's about as cool as the person who
| watches a popular TV show just so they can smugly complain
| about it. Just don't.
| jjav wrote:
| So if a restaurant is very expensive, it must be immune from
| reviews?
|
| Not in my world, no. In fact the expectations should be
| higher so it better deliver much higher quality of food.
| indigochill wrote:
| I took a theater criticism class in college and the main rule
| I remember is "Never say something is good or bad. Describe
| it." or something like that. The point being even if you're
| personally not into something, convey the strengths and
| weaknesses together so others can get a better sense of
| whether it's for them because people aren't all looking for
| the same thing from an experience.
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| > Also, don't be the guy who goes in on a mission to dunk on
| the expensive restaurant.
|
| Don't burst your bubble, right? Jay Rayner would like a word
| :-)
|
| The west's fetishisation of fine dining is so far away from
| the Japanese model that it allows for this idea that the most
| expensive thing can still be unsatisfying, laughable or
| misleading, because it's "in its own category".
|
| It is a trope to say "people starve elsewhere in the world"
| but it is also a truism. If expensive food is not objectively
| better food, reject it, and seek better food that isn't
| expensive.
| hedora wrote:
| Heh. Go watch the Japanese Iron Chef episode with the guy
| from SF.
|
| Japanese gourmets definitely do the "ridiculously
| expensive, questionable choice" thing too. The beef episode
| made me want to cry.
| chrismcb wrote:
| If it isn't better, but just different, then it is most likely
| just a waste of money. Why did I spent a ton more to have did
| that isn't as good as the $12 bbq joint? Because it is
| different? What I have seen is that the service is usually
| outstanding and secretary steps above. But the food should also
| be better as well.
| Amasuriel wrote:
| I would add that sometimes there are some truly magical food
| experiences lurking in there if you have an open mind, and
| Michelin restaurants are a good place to try new things.
|
| A few years ago I ate at the modern in New York. Most of the
| tasting menu was good, as you might expect, but honestly not
| particularly memorable.
|
| But they had this one dish, eggs 3 ways or something like that,
| which was a play on a soft boiled egg with toast, but the egg
| yolk had caviar and some other stuff in it, and was served with
| this toasted sourdough...I am salivating 4 years later thinking
| about it. Truly one of the best things I have ever eaten, and
| it was something I never would have ordered from a menu.
| 34679 wrote:
| Even among Michelin star restaurants, there's a huge variance.
| Take for example The French Laundry vs Terrapin Creek. The
| French Laundry is an experience that spans hours. Terrapin
| Creek is a small cafe that locals can pop into for a sandwich.
| Both have great food, presentation, and service. But they are
| completely different experiences.
| dkasper wrote:
| Agree about the flavor and ingredients. Reminded me of this vox
| podcast I listened to recently about the loss of food/flavor
| diversity, which basically means large scale farming has mostly
| crowded out all kinds of strange heirloom plant and even animal
| varieties and their corresponding tastes. I think high end
| Michelin type restaurants can play a part in preserving a lot
| of these unusual types of foods and flavors. Even if it becomes
| a niche thing it's great to retain unique foods from an
| evolutionary perspective. Link to the podcast
| https://pod.link/voxconversations/episode/54c858cc8d026dd5b4...
| mikestew wrote:
| _2. Many very high end restaurants have great lunch deals,
| which can really cut the price to try them._
|
| That was one of the greater discoveries I've made about
| expensive restaurants. My wife and I had previously spent over
| $400 on an anniversary dinner at the Metropolitan Grill in
| Seattle. We're "common as muck", too; just a couple of country
| hicks from Indiana. It was nice, glad we went, wouldn't likely
| spend that kind of money on a meal again.
|
| Then I started a job literally across the street in the
| Exchange building. Boss wants to go the "the Met" for lunch. On
| my salary?!?! That's when I found out that for $12, one can get
| one the better burgers one will ever eat. I recommend that
| steak salad, too.
|
| * Note: all prices from like ten years ago.
| Wistar wrote:
| I love the Met but have never tried it for lunch. Will now.
| changoplatanero wrote:
| sad. i just noticed it's no longer open for lunch
| luhn wrote:
| I think burgers are a great fine dining "hack." Many fine
| dining establishments have a burger on the menu and it's
| often _really freaking good_ at a price point significantly
| less than the other entrees. The best burger in my town is
| $15 from an upscale sushi place.
| dr_orpheus wrote:
| Same here, there is an Italian restaurant near me with
| normally $30-$40 entrees, and an absolutely fantastic $15
| burger.
| theginger wrote:
| steak burgers are great, you pay less to get more, free
| bread and they've already done some of the chewing for you.
| Any other food if you asked for them to chew it for you
| they'd probably call the police.
| soared wrote:
| Vacations work the same :) visit Puerto Rico now because
| everyone thinks it's destroyed by natural disaster and
| political problems. Yeah it's destroyed, but stunning
| beaches, resorts, golf courses, restaurants, etc for a
| fraction of the price.
|
| Best golf course and lunch I've ever had were at the royal
| isabela in PR. Absolute ghost town, but $90 all in. Stunning
| place.
| ajolly wrote:
| Any other PR suggestions you have?
| gutitout wrote:
| Odessa is a steal right now I hear.
| treis wrote:
| Rather crowded with foreigners from what I hear
| hammock wrote:
| I escaped to St Martin during the lockdowns. Still damaged
| from hurricane but rebuilding. French side best side, best
| food, beaches and people, and extremely affordable. Plus a
| busy airport with lots of flights because it's where the
| billionaires park before hopping on their yacht to St Barth
| (I saw roman abramovich's plane on the tarmac)
| shard wrote:
| This reminds me of a meme I saw a while back with a guy
| saying he makes vacation plans based on terrorist attacks,
| after which the tourist population and prices both drop
| noticeably.
| redisman wrote:
| The true "off-season".
| franga2000 wrote:
| I've heard this one too, but why does that happen? Surely
| the last place you'd want to do a terrorist attack is
| somewhere that just experienced one recently? Not only
| will everyone be on high alert so you're less likely to
| succeed, but your impact will be diminished since your
| attack is now getting mixed in with the previous one.
|
| I guess it might be more of a psychological thing of not
| wanting to go there because it feels weird to vacation at
| the place of a tragedy, but from a safety perspective, it
| seems like the best choice.
| hervature wrote:
| I agree 100%. Fine dining should really be framed as part of
| the entertainment category. You are paying for an experience.
| Just like people don't talk about the Incan Trail as a $1,000
| hike, a Michelin restaurant is not a $150 meal. When framed
| like this, it is obvious that some people would derive more
| utility out of a Michelin starred meal as opposed to buying 2-3
| new video games.
| kjafdkhjadfs wrote:
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| 3. Lots of high end restaurants have "happy hours" with half-
| price meals (or so) on those days that have low points. You can
| also be a little bit less dressy.
| scelerat wrote:
| very much this. If you want a fantastic taco, the truck down
| the street is as likely to kill it as any linen sit-down, but
| there are some restaurants which serve up a unique experience
| you simply cannot get anywhere else.
| vidarh wrote:
| To the "experience" point, one of my all time best meals was
| crab at a three star restaurant. I like crab but it's normally
| not special to me. This was crab and almost nothing else
| prepared in four different ways that made the taste and texture
| entirely different. I'd never have ordered a dish described
| like that at a lower rated restaurant. It's not a meal I'd want
| to order over and over. But it's a meal I still remember fondly
| more than 20 years later.
| [deleted]
| vincentmarle wrote:
| 3. Don't expect to fill your appetite.
| gnicholas wrote:
| My wife and I have gone to In-N-Out after fancy dinners on a
| number of occasions.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| how did that work out?
|
| the best meal i ever had in my life was at Bar Crudo on
| Divis in SF. owners pivoted to a taco place, for reasons
| unfathomable to me. had a dinner that blew my conception of
| food open, went to a show nearby after.
|
| got home at 3AM and made myself a bit of sausage and toast
| and to my surprise the experience of my prior meal
| persisted, and in contrast my late night snack seemed like
| it was made of cardboard.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Taste-wise, delicious!
|
| It is a bit odd to wear a tux or suit to an In-N-Out at
| midnight, but after a few times you get used to it.
| nomel wrote:
| What's the main allure for you?
| gnicholas wrote:
| The burgers, for sure. I've never been a fan of their
| spongy fries.
|
| I'd be happy to eat elsewhere as well, but there aren't a
| lot of options at midnight.
| ghaff wrote:
| For some reason I don't really understand, while I can't
| stand McDonalds in general, their fries are better than
| any of the "fast casual" places like Shake Shack, In-n-
| Out, etc. that I've encountered.
| gnicholas wrote:
| McD partially fries and freezes their fries before fully
| frying them. [1] That probably makes them more crispy and
| tastier to many (myself included). In-N-Out uses fresh
| potatoes, which means no fry-freeze-fry.
|
| Five Guys has very crispy and tasty fries -- especially
| the cajun style -- that are not double fried. [2]
|
| 1: https://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/this-is-how-
| mcdonalds-mak...
|
| 2: https://www.delish.com/uk/food-news/a37315383/how-
| five-guys-...
| ghaff wrote:
| I admit I don't remember Five Guys fries as anything
| exceptional but maybe I haven't ever had them. Admittedly
| I find Five Guys pretty overrated and expensive generally
| so I eat them even more rarely than burger places
| generally.
| spear wrote:
| I always order fries "well-done" at In-N-Out now.
| adra wrote:
| I've been to quite a few fine dining establishments that had
| very generous portions. The best advice I can give is always
| ask the waiter in order to gauge how much you should be
| ordering. As long as the restaurant isn't run by total
| assholes, you'll get an honest answer. Waiters want to make
| you happy as their generous tips are largely powered by your
| enjoyment. Having a miss-portioned meal and paying a fortune
| doesn't encourage a reasonable tip.
| joshuamorton wrote:
| I don't think I've ever seen a prix fixe/chef's selection
| menu that wasn't going to leave me absolutely stuffed. If you
| go somewhere and order a la carte and plan to spend "normal"
| nice restaurant prices (say, $30-40) sure you'll get a
| smaller size. But if you're spending like $70+, you'll almost
| always leave full. The one actually starred restaurant I went
| to, I skipped lunch and could still barely walk home it was
| so much food. 6-12 courses add up, even if they're small.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| This; admittedly I have been eating smaller portion sizes
| in the past year or so but I've never left a tasting menu
| meal feeling hungry.
| deanCommie wrote:
| Really depends on the appetite, and the restaurant.
|
| It's a bit like an art museum. You can go get a ticket to the
| Hermitage, and you would probably need 3 full days to see
| every single thing in it.
|
| For the same price, there might be some museum that shows
| only a few paintings.
|
| Does that mean the bigger museum the better the value? Kind
| of? If the goal is to get an experience, there are many ways
| to experience some emotions (and in the restaurant's case
| flavours) that won't lead to thorough "satiation", but would
| still be novel.
|
| Some museums are like that, and you'll want to go see an
| Avengers movie afterwards to satisfy your entertainment.
|
| Some restaurants are like that, and you'll hit MacDonalds on
| teh way back.
|
| But more often than not, Michelin-echelon restaurants will
| overwhelm you with a ton of tiny courses, by the end of which
| you will be fairly adequately stuffed.
| ghaff wrote:
| 3-4 hours is probably about the limit of how much time I
| can handle a given museum. Much past that, I'm "OK. It's a
| Rembrandt but it's not one of his really good ones." If
| it's the Hermitage, I'll make an exception but I'll really
| start zoning out after a while.
| rhino369 wrote:
| The portion sizes usually factor in that you'll be ordering
| appetizers or multiple courses. But that jacks up the price a
| ton.
| tashoecraft wrote:
| You really need to ask the waiter before hand. Often times at
| fancier restaurants you aren't expected to just order and
| entree and be full, and yet that's what some patrons expect.
|
| An example is high end Italian places will often have a pasta
| section at say 20-40/item and entree's 30-100's, and you
| think you can just order a pasta and have a good meal. Except
| you're really intended to order a couple appetizers, a pasta
| meal each and an entree. It's not them trying to take all
| your money, but it's what the normal clientele expect. It's
| also often what the food quality/prices demand.
|
| If it's a truly good restaurant (and not just an expensive
| one), you shouldn't be coming away hungry.
| rosndo wrote:
| > Lots more crazy flavors, presentation, exotic ingredients,
| etc. It's not that it has to be 'better' than the best $12 bbq
| joint you've ever been to, just different.
|
| Not all Michelin starred restaurants offer the kind of
| modernist fare you describe. There are many michelin starred
| restaurants serving exactly the normal-but-better food.
|
| For example the Michelin starred curries in London tend to fall
| in the normal-but-much-better category.
|
| Michelin starred sushi is usually normal-but-better, sometimes
| with weird fish options.
|
| France is full of normal-but-better French restaurants with
| stars.
| showerst wrote:
| That's true, especially among the one-stars and bibs.
|
| On that top comment I was really thinking of tasting menus,
| which tend to be more out there. There are for sure plenty of
| places with an a la carte menu of very recognizable roast
| chicken and steak or whatever.
|
| I think on average in the US, Michelin caliber of places
| (stars or no) tend more modernist/experimental than in
| Europe.
| deckard1 wrote:
| I've been to a Michelin star ramen place in Japan. Nothing at
| all fancy about the place, other than the fact you need to
| get in line around 6am if you want a seat at noon. When it's
| time to eat, you punch in the number of the item you want in
| a very typical Japanese ticket vending machine. You sit down
| at the bar with about ten others, hand the ticket to the guy
| at the counter, and soon you're in a rush to eat your ramen.
| Because everyone is just sucking down their food as if this
| were your regular corner ramen place and they have to get
| back to work ASAP. I can't say the ramen was better than any
| other decent place, since the peer pressure to finish your
| meal is rather intense. You'll sit there and ponder how the
| Japanese eat such incredibly hot noodles so quickly.
|
| Tim Ho Wan is another cheap place with a star. They are a
| chain, even.
| j7ake wrote:
| I actually find many high end restaurants to be worth the money.
|
| It averages about 150 per person, but often there can be as many
| as 10 courses.
|
| If one thought about how much each individual course cost, about
| 10 bucks on average, it is already a good deal (some dishes are
| caviar, foie gras, lobster...). Add to that you're sitting there
| spending a nice 3 hours with someone special and enjoying a story
| told through the taste buds.
|
| Most of the times it is worth the money.
| zwaps wrote:
| I went to a Michelin-starred vegan restaurant in Berlin (on the
| wall was a mural spelling the F-word and you had to walk through
| a warehouse to "find" the place) and it was really good. The wine
| was also very good. I wasn't "crying" but it sure was the best
| meal I ever had from a mere taste standpoint.
|
| Whether it's worth it depends entirely on how much money you
| have. If you are FAANG Engineer rich, you could probably eat
| there every day if you'd wanted to. In that case, yeah it's worth
| it. If you earn the median salary in the EU, then nah.
| nkrisc wrote:
| A three star restaurant really is something different. It's not
| just the experience, the quality and consistency is just
| something that's hard to find elsewhere.
|
| The best cup of black coffee I've ever had was at a three star
| restaurant. It was just a simple cup of coffee but it was just
| made completely perfectly. Great beans I'm sure, a good roast,
| brewed exactly the right way. You can of course get that outside
| of a Michelin starred restaurant easily, but the point is in a
| three star restaurant everything is perfect, even the cup of
| coffee you have after dinner. They didn't teen me where the beans
| were from or who roasted it, it was pedestrian for them.
| supernova87a wrote:
| Good story.
|
| One thing to remember or value when you go to these places is
| that you're not largely paying for the food. You're paying for
| 4-5x the people per diner than any normal restaurant -- you're
| paying for their time to pore over the ingredients more carefully
| than you would yourself, their time to learn about and explain it
| to you, their time to come up with amusing and interesting ways
| to prepare it, their time to wait on you like a sultan and never
| fail to bore your palate.
|
| Not saying that it's worth it for everyone or that it's even
| completely justified as they think it is (every artist thinks
| that any excessive amount they spend on some esoterica is "worth
| it"), but that's really where your $ are going. Maybe that's the
| way to think about it -- you're paying for _art_.
|
| And being one of the few diners who the cost of paying for
| people's livelihoods is spread over (especially if those people
| have student loans to pay for) -- that is expensive.
| jamespwilliams wrote:
| Michelin also gives out an award for 'good quality, good value
| restaurants', called the Bib Gourmand, which is worth looking
| into. Bib Gourmand restaurants are often still a bit more
| expensive than the average restaurant in a place, but are
| generally of very very good quality and value for money.
| christkv wrote:
| I second this one, all my visits to Bib Gourmand rated
| restaurants have been great.
| david927 wrote:
| There's food that's great and there's food that's art. If you're
| lucky enough to have experienced the latter, you'll know it.
| BashiBazouk wrote:
| I've eaten at three Michelin Stared restaurants in the bay area.
| Gary Danko, CPQR and Manresa. All were interesting experiences.
| Gary Danko was by far my favorite. The other two felt like it was
| all about he ego of the chef. Gary Danko was all about my
| enjoyment of the meal. They have three courses separated in
| sections, but you can mix and match. If you want a taste of filet
| mignon as an appetizer and a huge plate of escargot for your
| main, that's fine with them. Their wait staff is by far the most
| elite I have ever experienced. No one asking you if you need
| anything and not a waiter to be found, unless you need something
| then they magically appeared just as the thought was percolating
| into consciousness. Amazing.
|
| CPQR was weird. We did three courses from the menu. Appetizer was
| the best, but the most memorable was the second course, though
| not for the taste. I order a pasta dish and before they serve
| they place a steak knife next to me. A steak knife, what the hell
| did I order? The dish comes and looking at it I'm still wondering
| what exactly I ordered...
|
| Manresa was also a unique experience. First all the dishes were
| absolutely, amazing. One person in our party did not like fish
| except for scallops, which they accommodated. We proceed to have
| five fish based dishes in a row. Even though all five were
| fantastic, at the end my mouth felt like a tide pool, and having
| grown up on the beaches of Santa Cruz, I know that taste/feeling
| well. On the third fish dish, our friend got his scallops and boy
| did they look good. Then on the fifth and last fish dish he was
| served squab. The rest of us looked longingly at that bird, our
| collective mouths watering. He was lucky to leave that table
| alive...
|
| I think the food was more inventive and more perfectly cooked at
| CPQR and Manresa but it's Gary Danko I would like to go back to.
| tpmx wrote:
| I really like how this menu is presented:
|
| http://garydanko.com/wp-content/uploads/garydanko/main-menu-...
|
| A high but suitable amount of details, common English words
| being used, etc.
|
| I really hate having to google 10-15 terms when reading a menu
| because the chef felt the need to use non-English terms (often
| French) or extremely uncommon English terms.
| mercutio2 wrote:
| This is hilarious to me, because Gary Danko is the only
| Michelin starred restaurant my wife and I immediately said
| "never going back there" as we left, and laugh about how bad it
| was every time we drive past. The food was mundane, poorly
| prepared, un-special in about every way. I could not fathom,
| from our night there, how it maintains its Michelin star.
|
| I assume by CPQR you mean SPQR? I only dined their before they
| got their Michelin star, I thought it was OK at the time, but
| not as good as an average high quality SF restaurant.
| hangonhn wrote:
| My wife and I went to a Michelin star restaurant to celebrate our
| engagement. That the food was good was expected but the whole
| experience was just amazing. I think service and attention to
| detail and caring about the customer really makes the whole
| experience just so different. When they found out that we just
| got engaged, they printed out a new menu with all the dishes but
| also with "Congratulations" at the top. My fiancee/wife ordered a
| wine pairing but I skipped it because I'm a total lightweight and
| I was the driver. My wife would hand me her glass just to try a
| sip. When they noticed that they just brought out another glass
| for me each time they pour her from a new bottle and would pour
| me a small sip as well. We didn't have to ask and they didn't try
| to charge us for another wine pairing. The whole experience was
| just delightful.
|
| Highly recommend Single Thread in Healdsburg if you do decide to
| go to one. Yes I did pick it partly because of the name and I'm a
| software engineer.
| gkoberger wrote:
| I'm so glad this was a positive story, and I'm so happy for the
| author! I went into it expecting this restaurant to be mocked,
| since articles like this are usually played as a joke.
|
| No, not everyone can afford to try a Michelin Star restaurant. A
| lot of Michelin restaurants suck. And you don't have to pay a ton
| for a good meal; some of the best food I've ever had has cost
| $10.
|
| However, food is right up there with music as something that
| connects people. A taste or smell can unlock a memory you thought
| you lost forever, or create new ones you'll never forget. There's
| a reason meals are so prominent in movies and literature. Not
| everyone is lucky enough to have a good relationship with food
| (in fact, for many, the connotations can be quite negative), and
| I'm so happy for this person that she loved it.
|
| When done right, nice restaurants are an experience. From start
| to finish, from the food to the drink to the decor to the people,
| it's closer to going to a Broadway play or art museum than it is
| a normal meal.
|
| For people who can afford it readily, the experience is almost
| lost. It can become a status symbol, where the Instagram story is
| more important than enjoying it. It was so charming to see this
| through the eyes of someone who had no pretentious goals going
| into it, and had a wonderful time.
| pjmorris wrote:
| > A taste or smell can unlock a memory you thought you lost
| forever.
|
| Here for a related personal anecdote and a movie reference.
|
| On a conference trip to Chicago I managed to snag a reservation
| for a Michelin-starred restaurant (Alinea.) The first appetizer
| was an unusual-looking canape sprayed with a white foam,
| featuring salmon and dill as key flavors. It took me back to my
| 10-year-old self sitting at my grandparent's Thanksgiving table
| which included shrimp with grandma-grown dill. The meal tab was
| pricy, the recall of a grand moment was something akin to
| priceless.
|
| The movie reference is 'Ratatouille,' where the antagonist
| restaurant critic has such a moment.
| kenneth wrote:
| There are 3 star meals that are just excellent renditions of
| food, and some that are experimental theaters as much as they
| are food.
|
| To take two examples from my own eating experience on either
| end of the spectrum:
|
| - Alinea, in Chicago - the experience is full of surprises,
| artful experiences, etc. The desert is lowered from the
| ceiling and involves what is essentially violently making a
| Jackson Pollock on the table
|
| - Forum, in Hong Kong - on the other hand, there is nothing
| special or creative about Forum, which executes Cantonese
| cuisine traditionally and perfects its execution of
| traditional dining in the 50 years since it's been open
|
| Most of the time, the restaurants are somewhere in the
| middle, but closer to the Forum end than the Alinea end.
|
| Probably the most innovative and interesting one I've tried
| is Gaggan, which has since closed but had 2 stars and a
| ranking as Asia's #1 restaurant, doing a 25-course
| experimental take on Indian cuisine in Bangkok.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| > Probably the most innovative and interesting one I've
| tried is Gaggan, which has since closed but had 2 stars and
| a ranking as Asia's #1 restaurant, doing a 25-course
| experimental take on Indian cuisine in Bangkok.
|
| Gaggan Anand opened another restaurant called "Gaggan
| Anand". Smaller, more experimental and without his old
| business partners. https://gaggananand.com/
| gommm wrote:
| Perfect description of Forum, it's not creative, certainly
| not innovative but it really nails the execution to a level
| that few restaurants can. I find that it really depends on
| my mood, sometimes I crave a restaurant that's more
| innovative, more of an artful experience (if you get a
| chance I recommend Pujol in Mexico (caveat for Pujol, the
| omakase is amazing, the tasting menu is merely decent and
| not worth the price) and Fu He Hui in Shanghai), sometimes
| I just want an Abalone perfectly well cooked and seasoned
| like in Forum.
| leeter wrote:
| I seem to recall Chef Achatz actually talking about food as
| an emotional experience given his own trials with cancer and
| actually losing his ability to taste for awhile. I can't find
| the interview (or it might have been Chef's table) but I'm
| pretty sure that informs the style of Alinea.
| creaghpatr wrote:
| His Chef's Table episode covers his loss of taste, that is
| one of my favorite episodes in the series.
| sfotm wrote:
| The Ratatouille scene may even hearken back to "Remembrance
| of Things Past": http://art.arts.usf.edu/content/articlefiles
| /2330-Excerpt%20...
| CPLX wrote:
| > A lot of Michelin restaurants suck.
|
| Not really.
|
| I've been to a whole lot of them and seek them out. I've been
| mildly disappointed here and there, or underwhelmed. Never seen
| one that sucked though.
| gkoberger wrote:
| I do mostly agree with you.
|
| I can think of two that I was quite disappointed with (I
| won't name them, but both no longer have stars... meaning the
| system works!). I luckily didn't mind, personally, but if I
| sacrificed 6 months of takeout for it I would have said it
| "sucked".
| fennecfoxen wrote:
| > No, not everyone can afford to try a Michelin Star
| restaurant.
|
| If I'm not mistaken, Good Luck Dim Sum has a Michelin star. If
| you're already in San Francisco, or if you can get there, then
| basically everyone can afford it.
| tayo42 wrote:
| In sf there's Al's place which is affordable, also there's a
| sushi place in noe Valley that got the bib award. Imo quality
| wise it's good, just the service is regular. There's also an
| Indian place down the peninsula that isn't to expensive.
| Forgot the name and exact town
| tootie wrote:
| They gave a Michelin star to a (Hainanese) chicken and rice
| stall at a hawker market in Singapore. I think it's mostly PR
| honestly because it wasn't all that interesting. The food was
| very tasty for sure, but it wasn't particularly refined or
| unique.
| gkoberger wrote:
| They don't! They might be Michelin-rated, but that's
| different.
|
| Here's the full list in SF:
| https://guide.michelin.com/us/en/california/san-
| francisco/re...
| kenneth wrote:
| There are some cheap Michelin stars in Asia, which were
| added rather recently after the guide got flak for being
| too snooty. A few local spots in HK and Singapore cost just
| a few bucks and have stars (and incredibly long lines).
| gommm wrote:
| Also in HK, rather weirdly, mediocre mid range
| restaurants are rather expensive. So much so, that I've
| been invited to such restaurants and ended up paying
| about the same as I'd pay in 3 Michelin starred
| restaurant like Forum (we average around 70 usd per
| person for Dim Sum) or Tang Court (about the same).
| tootie wrote:
| Haute cuisine is like fine art. You can recognize the skill and
| significance of the achievement, but taste is still subjective.
| De gustibus non est disputandum.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| I've seen a decent number of really sad-looking folks at
| Michelin restaurants, usually older couples, just kind of
| picking at their food and not talking to each other, looking
| around longingly. I remember a couple quite vividly when my
| wife and I were having dinner at Pacific's Edge in Carmel (
| https://goo.gl/maps/Bmj5jFPmYGgVfNCJ9 ) and there was a
| 40-something couple who had just ordered a $500ish bottle of
| wine, and they both looked as if they couldn't be less
| interested while trying it. They barely spoke to each other the
| entire meal, and I just felt kinda bad for them in the same way
| that I feel for people in dance clubs obviously not enjoying
| themselves at a literal party.
|
| I've seen many many more people having an absolute blast at
| fancy restaurants, so that's great. For example, last time we
| were at Press ( https://g.page/pressnapavalley?share ), we had
| an amazing meal next to a group of seniors celebrating one of
| their birthdays and reminiscing about all their adventures
| together. They were curious about one of our dishes and chatted
| with us for a few minutes, and we helped them take a photo
| together.
|
| Life and experiences like these are what you make of them.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| > I've seen a decent number of really sad-looking folks at
| Michelin restaurants, usually older couples, just kind of
| picking at their food and not talking to each other, looking
| around longingly. I remember a couple quite vividly when my
| wife and I were having dinner at Pacific's Edge in Carmel (
| https://goo.gl/maps/Bmj5jFPmYGgVfNCJ9 ) and there was a
| 40-something couple who had just ordered a $500ish bottle of
| wine, and they both looked as if they couldn't be less
| interested while trying it. They barely spoke to each other
| the entire meal, and I just felt kinda bad for them in the
| same way that I feel for people in dance clubs obviously not
| enjoying themselves at a literal party.
|
| Some people are just miserable people. Some people also just
| spend money because they have it. I've seen people order $3k
| bottles of wine and leave half on the table and leave. They
| didn't not enjoy it, they just didn't care.
| geodel wrote:
| > Some people are just miserable people. Some people also
| just spend money because they have it...
|
| True. Further sometimes people are just in miserable
| situation. Also having money helps them make statement like
| "meh, it taste like crap anyway". Middle class me would
| scared to say or imply any such thing at fancy places.
| mbf1 wrote:
| My wife booked us a river cruise on the Napo river for my
| birthday - one of the many tributaries of the Amazon river in
| Ecuador. The chef on the boat had the most amazing dishes every
| day / night for a week. I would believe he was a Michelin star
| chef by the amazing varieties of perfection that came out of the
| kitchen.
| senkora wrote:
| If you live in a city that has it, then a good meal at a Michelin
| Star restaurant is a very worthwhile and achievable luxury. Go
| somewhere with a tasting menu (small plates). I'm happy that the
| author was able to experience it.
|
| In the United States, the Michelin guide awards stars in NYC,
| Chicago, DC, and California.
| kevinventullo wrote:
| If you're in the Boston area, I recommend Tasting Counter in
| Somerville. No Michelin star as far as I'm aware, but a similar
| experience in that there are several small plates with flavors
| and textures I've not had elsewhere.
| jaywalk wrote:
| I haven't had the pleasure of eating at a Michelin star
| restaurant (yet, I fully intend to at some point) but I have
| eaten at places that could probably get at least one star if they
| were located in a city where Michelin gave them out.
|
| It is truly an unforgettable experience from start to finish.
| It's obvious that so much thought and care goes into _everything_
| that you can 't even really compare it to a regular "nice"
| restaurant. It's an entirely different class of dining, and this
| article conveyed it perfectly. Made me want to prioritize getting
| to an actual Michelin star restaurant.
| mhh__ wrote:
| Slightly OT: The websites that are used by these [name of
| place]Live sites are absolutely shit.
|
| They've bought up all the locals and put them under this banner.
| Slow, buggy, low information-density.
|
| This is how the BBC looked as early as I can vaguely remember it:
| http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/default.stm
| better in almost every way.
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| As much as we love the BBC, it's worth considering that the
| BBC's website is so comprehensive that it is part of the
| misfortunes of local independent news.
|
| This is why the moreover.com "news from other websites" bit is
| on the BBC News site now (though it blows me away how poorly
| some independent websites populate that one opportunity to be
| seen, with weird autoscraped content snippets that are often
| comically weird)
| Doctor_Fegg wrote:
| Honestly, if you think Reach's Live sites are bad, you should
| see the Gannett/Newsquest ones (www.oxfordmail.co.uk is our
| nearest). They're a whole league worse.
| drcongo wrote:
| Newsquest are the pits.
| mellosouls wrote:
| Yes, Reach media is notorious for the crapness of it's UX
| experience. It's presumably designed that way intentionally, I
| mean, they _must_ know.
|
| I have no idea of the thinking behind it but I hope the devs,
| testers and designers behind it hide that part of their
| experience on their CVs.
|
| I mean, the _shame_ they must feel.
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| They know.
|
| But I suspect there is so little money in local news now
| (partly because of the internet and partly because of the
| collapse of newspaper-driven local commerce, small ads, all
| that), that they do not care; they are in a toxic
| relationship with the only advertising that pays, and to step
| outside that and construct a local news model that would be
| sustainable and not abusive to its readers is the stuff of
| romance novels and Hallmark movies.
|
| With the Reach sites I am surprised by some of the design
| elements that could be improved even without touching the
| aggressively bad advertising design, though. The typical
| "where I live" selector could be so much better.
| kuboble wrote:
| Well... I have second hand knowledge that developers and
| managers of www.programmzeitung.ch are satisfied with their
| good and modern website.
| davio wrote:
| Reminds me of this dystopian Michelin star restaurant experience:
|
| https://everywhereist.com/2021/12/bros-restaurant-lecce-we-e...
| martopix wrote:
| This person clearly has never been to a Michelin-level
| restaurant before.
|
| > Very, very expensive theater.
|
| Well yes, it's also theatre. It's a form of art.
|
| The dishes were tiny? You chose the _27_ -course tasting menu.
| What did he expect, 27 large portions of lasagne? Most of the
| article seems to be just about how everything was only small
| mouthfuls, but this is perfectly normal. Perhaps the same
| restaurant has an a la carte menu, or a 6-course tasting. That
| would be different. Here [1] is a video of people eating there,
| and they are quite satisfied.
|
| PS: of course you can eat rancid things. If you're not willing
| to try weird stuff you just choose another restaurant. Not a
| michelin-starred one that is particularly famous for quirky
| stuff, like Bros.
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAvLiQZhg3Y
| jjulius wrote:
| I've dined at quite a few Michelin-level restaurants and
| disagree with your take on the piece. Yes, this sort of
| dining is more akin theatre, and art, and an educational
| experience. I agree with you that, generally, people
| shouldn't be surprised at the portion sizes when it's a
| 27-course meal. That said, there are many notable points that
| that review makes, much of which should warrant, IMO, a re-
| examination of whether or not they actually deserve a
| Michelin star.
|
| Let's start with a look at their post-script at the end of
| the article, since it's about portion-sizing:
|
| >Note: the TripAdvisor reviews show a lot of elaborate
| courses, and these were all way, way more food than anything
| we ate. I cannot express to you how little we were fed, and
| I'm not a particularly big eater. Allergy and dietary
| restrictions were largely ignored.
|
| >The servers will not explain to you what the hell is going
| on.
|
| >When a member of our party stood up during the lengthy
| stretch between courses to go have a cigarette outside, and
| was scolded to sit down.
|
| >When one member of our party was served nothing for three
| consecutive courses, because they couldn't figure out how to
| accommodate her food allergies.
|
| >When Rand was served food he was allergic to, repeatedly,
| because they didn't care enough to accommodate his.
|
| I've never seen a Michelin-level restaurant just flat-out
| _not_ serve a guest a course (in this case multiple - three!)
| because of their dietary restrictions, nor have I seen a
| Michelin-level restaurant "forget" about said restriction.
|
| >When a server reprimanded me for eating. These reconstituted
| orange slices (one per person) were a course. I asked if I
| could eat the real orange that had been served alongside it
| (we'd all gotten one, and I, at this point, was extremely
| hungry). "Yes," the server said, annoyed. "But you aren't
| really supposed to." He let me have two segments and then
| whisked the fruit away.
|
| So they served edible food and then took it away before
| people were finished eating?
|
| >That's the problem with a tasting menu. With so many
| courses, you just assume things are going to turn around.
| Every dish is a chance for redemption. Maybe this meal was
| like Nic Cage's career - you have to wait a really long time
| for the good stuff, but there is good stuff.
|
| Clearly the servers were not communicating the progress of
| the meal to the guests:
|
| >"Would you like red or white?" the server asked.
|
| >"What are we having for the main?" she inquired.
|
| >His face blanched.
|
| >"The... main, madame? Um... we're about to move on to
| dessert."
|
| Or this description-less explanation of a dish from a server:
|
| >"We've infused these droplets with meat molecules," the
| server explained, and left.
|
| >... and a dish called "frozen air" which literally melted
| before you could eat it...
|
| >P.S. - The next day, one of the staff tried contacting the
| only single female member of our party via Instagram
| messages. "Hey, I served you last night!"
|
| I mean, there's _art_ [nods head], and then there 's _art_
| [shakes head]. If you take the time to read the article, it
| 's apparent that these guests have dined at tasting-menu
| establishments before, perhaps even Michelin-level spots. But
| to be fair to them, Lecce absolutely does seem like it's
| trying entirely too damned hard to be over the top in a way
| that is detrimental to itself.
| youarethebest wrote:
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| People should read about restaurants before they go... That
| restaurant is particularly known for very provocative 'artful'
| food. There's plenty of traditional fine dining restaurants in
| Italy.
| hirundo wrote:
| It's been two years since I've eaten at a restaurant, and about
| five years before that. When I do go the food is quite memorable,
| compared to home cooking. If you want to make restaurant visits
| special just make them rare. Michelin restaurants are for people
| further down that particular hedonistic treadmill than me.
| gorbachev wrote:
| Such a wonderful article!
|
| I haven't dined in Michelin star restaurants, but a handful of
| very, very good ones for special occasions with my wife. The
| experience has been exactly as the the writer of that article
| had, every time. Great food is magical.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Highly recommend doing this occasionally. Like so many other
| things, quantity can be exchanged for quantity. Go to a 5x more
| expensive restaurant and skip 4 meals at cheaper restaurants.
|
| Restaurants that are expensive-ish but not sublime or memorable
| experiences can be skipped. Eat cheaply or really expensively.
| Skip "quite expensive but not fantastic" restaurants. Tasting
| menus at one star restaurants is where the value is.
| schmichael wrote:
| One of my first fine dining experiences was similar. A date for
| my wife and I paid for by my employer after a weekend ruined by
| an outage. I had steak tartare (fixed!) for the first time. I had
| cognac (outside of cheap cognac in a mixed drink) for the first
| time. A family at a nearby table had sweaters tied around their
| shoulders and were literally discussing their yacht club.
|
| As someone who grew up with public school teachers for parents
| and corn fields surrounding my house, it was transcendental. The
| staff was just as lovely as the food, and it's easily the best
| gift I've ever gotten from an employer.
| rory wrote:
| Apologies for being an internet corrector, but it's actually
| "tartare," from the old French belief (or perhaps joke) that
| the Golden Horde Tatars didn't have time to cook their meat
| when on the move. So they just softened it under their saddles
| as they rode, then ate it raw.
|
| Kind of funny that such a now-fancy food is supposed to taste
| as if you ate it from under a nomad's butt.
| brilee wrote:
| This article suggests this etymology is made up...
| https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/06/dining/the-raw-truth-
| dont...
| rory wrote:
| Oh. Well it's a good urban legend anyway.
| [deleted]
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| Fine dining is more of an 'experience' than a meal. It's like
| going to the theatre or watching an orchestra perform.
|
| You're not paying for the food you receive per se, you're paying
| for the room, all the staff buzzing around to provide you with
| the experience, all the cooks required to give you 10 courses of
| something interesting and well-made, etc... It's a cultural
| experience. And the culture you're experiencing ranges from very
| old cuisine to very new cuisine, local culture to something very
| foreign, etc...
|
| Also for anyone who thinks they're not 'fancy' enough to enjoy
| it, consider that cooks, chefs and servers are pretty much the
| definition of 'working class'. And the food is (usually anyway)
| delicious and interesting.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| When I was in Italy with my brother back in 2019, we mostly ate
| at cheap local spots to keep costs down. But towards the end of
| the trip, I said lets go get some amazing food, regardless of
| cost.
|
| We walked into this little Italian restaurant, ordered an
| expensive Merlot and a tomahawk steak to share. First the wine,
| "holy shit" was the exact words I used when I first tasted it,
| super smooth, to the point where you couldn't feel even the
| smallest bit of sting from the alcohol.
|
| Then the steak, the tenderest steak I've ever had. You cut of
| pieces of fat and as soon as you put it in your mouth the thing
| just melts away.
|
| In the end dinner set us back 250 euros, and much like this lady,
| I walked away going "that was worth every penny". Food like that
| isn't just about the experience, it's also the memory. That
| dinner I had is now almost 4 years ago but I still remember the
| wine and the slightly salted steak _kisses fingers like an
| italian_
| onemoresoop wrote:
| Now imagine you had that treatment daily. Perhaps it would not
| excite you as much and it could not possibly be memorable as a
| mundane experience. Such are advantages of not being able to
| always afford the best of the best
| tomrod wrote:
| This is how my mother-in-law prepares food. It is a genuine
| pleasure to eat at her table. The experience, love, and
| innovation she puts into her recipes are amazing.
| riccardomc wrote:
| I am glad you had a nice experience and I mean no disrespect,
| but you went all the way to Italy to overpay a French wine and
| an American cut...
|
| I guess it means you'll have to go back! Next time go to
| Florence and order a Fiorentina Steak with a Montepulciano.
| That's going to be 50EUR for two. And, as you said, the memory
| will last forever.
| julianlam wrote:
| The wife and I tried a Michelin Star restaurant, along with some
| restaurants in Toronto without the star, but with tasting menus.
|
| I can mirror the sentiment from this article. Tasting menus are
| absolutely phenomenal, and worth the money, though of course I
| couldn't afford to have that every single day.
|
| The idea of paying good money to a chef so they they can
| thoughtfully procure food instead of buying slabs of meat in
| bulk, and prepare it in such a way as to arouse the senses, is
| not really that wild of an idea (perhaps paying a multiple of a
| standard meal would be offensive to some, I get that.)
|
| My only criticism is that while the food is frickin' amazing, you
| only get one bite of it, per dish. Maybe two. Maybe that's part
| of the appeal.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| > My only criticism is that while the food is frickin' amazing,
| you only get one bite of it, per dish. Maybe two. Maybe that's
| part of the appeal.
|
| I mean, there's a limit to how much you can eat before you
| start feeling bloated and over-full. More food per course =
| less courses.
|
| Lots of Michelin starred restaurants in Europe offer tasting
| menus + a la carte menu (ie. menu where you can choose items)
| with larger portions. In North America though, most high-end
| restaurants do one or the other.
| jonny_eh wrote:
| > you only get one bite of it, per dish
|
| I suppose that gets you to savour it?
| vmception wrote:
| At the famous El Bulli, there was speculation and accusation
| that they were using toxins and poisons. Vigorously denied of
| course, but perhaps the small sizes allowed for this level of
| discretion.
|
| When I read in this article that the author was for sure they
| weren't using magic mushrooms or some other kind that would
| cause a more immediate effect, I was thinking "for suuuuure?"
| I'll allow it
| munificent wrote:
| "gets you to" has a negative connotation.
|
| I think a better way to say it is that it helps you
| appreciate the large number of courses without getting
| stuffed or having your senses exhausted.
|
| Imagine going to a concert where the band says they are going
| to play their entire catalog front to back. If you're about
| to listen to 50 songs, you probably don't want them to also
| play the extended versions of each one at full blast if you
| have any hopes of making it through the show.
| thamer wrote:
| If you drink alcohol and have the option to get the wine pairing
| in a Michelin star restaurant, I'd highly recommend it. They are
| usually offered only with a prix-fixe menu where all the courses
| are pre-selected.
|
| With (say) 7 dishes you'd have 5-7 small glasses of wine, each
| selected from the restaurant's cellar by a sommelier who knows
| what would go perfectly with each dish. This is a much better
| option than getting your own drink or a bottle to share with the
| table, and the experience of pairing amazing food with just the
| right drink is on another level.
| brent_noorda wrote:
| Recently tried the new Fiesta Veggie Burrito at Taco Bell. Two
| dollars. Exquisite.
| stretchpants wrote:
| hilarious!!!!!
| stjohnswarts wrote:
| This was well written. I appreciate the "commonness" of her
| article :) . My less literate experiences have been similar, as
| someone who scoffs at paying more than $10 for a meal. It's
| really nice to treat yourself (and your SO) to a really posh
| dinner occasionally, maybe a few times a year, and it's usually
| not as hard as people figure, although she lucked out at only 2
| days wait (without being a millionaire pulling strings).
| nemo44x wrote:
| This article made my eyes well up a bit. I love food and
| appreciate cooking and love to see people discover cooking at
| this level. The author's reaction to it all, noticing the little
| details, is just beautiful. I also miss going to these types of
| restaurants and it makes me a bit sentimental. But soon it will
| all return, I hope.
| bob66 wrote:
| jefc1111 wrote:
| Great article! Brought back a memory I haven't accessed for a
| long time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1IRqqp8vHw
| vmception wrote:
| > Suddenly, they were not tiny little plates of food for big
| prices. They were experiences, knowledge and expertise, presented
| in such a way that I could have flown if I wasn't anchored to the
| restaurant floor by a crisp table topped with stacks of cutlery.
|
| Love this! Her synopsis could have easily gone the other way at
| "tiny plates of food at big prices".
|
| The experiences and attention to detail are what I like most
| about Michelin starred places.
|
| Especially how a place so fancy can have servers that treat you
| so personably, which is her experience as well. "Lick the plate!
| I'll cover for you!"
|
| I've been to many places with inferior levels of validation that
| were much more pretentious, like the Italian places all over
| America where nothing is in English but you have to pretend
| you're cultured enough to just know what everything is - there's
| more English on menus in actual Italy! Even in the middle of
| nowhere!
|
| The last thing is how the servers know when to be present without
| hovering or interrupting too often or too infrequently. Some
| places must have secret passages just for the wait staff and
| servers.
| ketzo wrote:
| The servers at these kinds of places really are career
| professionals, and it shows.
|
| Turns out when you really care about something and do it for a
| long time under the tutelage of experts, you _can_ get
| literally 10 or 100 times better at, say, serving someone water
| without being noticed.
|
| They are also, in my experience, _just_ as excited as you are.
| These people love their work, or they wouldn 't be there; they
| get _so_ happy when people love the food they 're serving, and
| they're always ready to gush with you about how good it is.
| Very fun interactions.
| thaway2839 wrote:
| Working at a high quality fine dining restaurant in any
| capacity is hard work.
|
| I don't think it's possible to do it unless you actually
| enjoy it.
| vidarh wrote:
| > The last thing is how the servers know when to be present
| without hovering or interrupting too often or too infrequently.
|
| Exactly. You can often tell the step up from good to great by
| whether the servers are intentionally making a show of their
| presence vs. when you don't notice them other than when you
| want to.
|
| At one place which should have known better my date and I ended
| up playing a game of "try to touch the wine bottle before the
| sommelier would make it to the table" as they insisted on
| making an annoying show of serving that at first was disruptive
| rather than helpful, and so we turned to passive aggressive
| rebellion... But that was funny once - it made me reluctant to
| go there on dates again.
|
| Conversely at some of the best places I've eaten the serving
| staff are like ninjas and you hardly even notice your napkin is
| dirty before it has magically been replaced.
|
| (I've had memorable interactions with servers who knew when to
| be noticed, so it's not about never being heard or seen, but
| about understanding when it adds to the experience and when it
| would interrupt)
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| > I've been to many places with inferior levels of validation
| that were much more pretentious, like the Italian places all
| over America where nothing is in English but you have to
| pretend you're cultured enough to just know what everything is
| - there's more English on menus in actual Italy! Even in the
| middle of nowhere!
|
| IMO these are the worst restaurants; wanna-be "fine dining"
| which simply isn't..
| rconti wrote:
| I don't do fine dining either, but what I've noticed at high end
| places is, much like the author noticed, you get more for your
| money than you expect, not less.
|
| It's true they don't like to be so crass as to talk about money,
| but other than the obvious (if you want another drink, it'll cost
| ya), things offered to you are often without charge. Little
| tastes of this, more of that. The prices on the menu are high,
| but it seems that once you've swallowed that, when you receive
| the bill, it's lower than you expect.
| svachalek wrote:
| I grew up without exposure to much in the way of luxuries, and
| as an adult they still feel wasteful. But I've learned this is
| true of a lot of luxury goods and experiences, part of the high
| price is all the little extras you weren't even expecting
| because you're used to what you get at the bare-bones price
| level.
|
| One notable exception is high end hotels, at least in the US,
| especially in the pandemic, where the extra cost mostly just
| seems to be an invitation to get nickeled and dimed on every
| little thing you do from parking to wifi. It's the 2 and 3 star
| hotels that throw freebies and conveniences at you.
| anonymousDan wrote:
| The michelin guide is a fantastic free online resource. The
| recommendations are so much more reliable than something like
| TripAdvisor. The key thing to understand though is that you are
| not just limited to going to 1-3 star Michelin restaurants (which
| are usually fantastic but often expensive). Instead if you are on
| a bit more of a budget look for the 'Bib Gourmand' rated
| restaurants. In my experience these usually provide fantastic
| value for money. Below that they also have categories such as the
| Michelin 'Plate', but these tend to be a bit more variable.
| temp83353 wrote:
| oliv__ wrote:
| sva_ wrote:
| I always had a low opinion on these high-end restaurants, but had
| my girlfriend convince me to try a Michelin stared restaurant. I
| have to say that my opinion has completely changed, and I've
| tried a few since. One Japanese one in particular, was the best
| food I've ever tasted. I didn't think such an experience was
| possible - it was way out of scope of things imaginable for me.
|
| I've since been thinking, we spend a lot of money for certain
| experiences in life, but paying such amounts for a meal is for
| most people ridiculous. Our sense of taste is a big factor that
| can perceive a staggering amount of combinations, so I think it
| is justifiable to spend a bit more money to go on a kind of
| culinary adventure from time to time.
| dunham wrote:
| I enjoy cooking. I go to restaurants like that to experience
| new food and maybe take away a few ideas. A Meal at a three
| star restaurant is very expensive, but it's an experience I've
| enjoyed. (I've also enjoyed meals at places completely off of
| Michelin's radar. For me, stuff like tapas / small plates is
| nice because I can try different things without filling up.)
|
| Some people couldn't imagine spending that kind of money for a
| meal. I couldn't imagine spending that kind of money to be at
| the superbowl. I suspect everybody has their own thing that is
| worth it to them.
| sva_ wrote:
| > I suspect everybody has their own thing that is worth it to
| them.
|
| That's a great thing about people, and a reminder that one
| should be humble and not judge people for how they're into
| some (perhaps niche) interests.
|
| > I enjoy cooking. I go to restaurants like that to
| experience new food and maybe take away a few ideas.
|
| It's a little counter-intuitive, I think, because one might
| assume that after having had some really great food,
| everything else will be bland. But it isn't so, as you say.
| It is an enriching experience contributing to one's ability
| to appreciate, and perhaps even make more things.
| samgranieri wrote:
| I've been to (as best I can remember) three Michelin starred
| restaurants in my life: Sierra Mar in Big Sur, California, Il
| Bucco in Sorrento, Italy (for my honeymoon), and Schwa in my
| hometown of Chicago.
|
| My wife and I had a lovely time at each place.
| tptacek wrote:
| Schwa is very unlike a typical Michelin place; I'm surprised
| it's starred. My understanding is that Michelin heavily weights
| service and ambience, neither of which are, uh, specialties of
| Schwa; it's the most downmarket tasting menu place I've ever
| been to (that's not to take anything away from it; I liked
| Schwa more than I liked Alinea).
| munificent wrote:
| Some of my favorite experiences were excellent meals.
|
| I hate the idea that fine dining is only for the immoral rich who
| are happy to conspicuously consume their way through an
| overpriced meal.
|
| A great meal can be as eminently rewarding as any great sensory
| experience and equally worth the price.
|
| If you don't see anything wrong with buying a hotel room to hear
| a concert from a favorite band in a distant city, or buying a
| plane ticket to fly somewhere with an incredible view, then
| there's equally nothing wrong with every now and then splurging
| on an amazing meal.
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