[HN Gopher] Ask HN: How much gas we could save in EU if we reduc...
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Ask HN: How much gas we could save in EU if we reduce our heating
temp by 3deg?
This question is related to the potential SWIFT block that might
happen any time soon. It sounds maybe naive but I was thinking
that if we almost all turn down our heating system by ~3deg Celsius
(compared to our current settings) we could potentially save gas
consumption that can be better used for other purposes. What do you
think?
Author : ciccionamente
Score : 123 points
Date : 2022-02-26 17:33 UTC (5 hours ago)
| eisa01 wrote:
| You should start by checking if the flow temperature is set
| correctly
|
| Many EU gas boilers are set too high, such that the boilers don't
| operate in condensing mode. You could save 6-8% gas by doing
| this: https://www.theheatinghub.co.uk/articles/turn-down-the-
| boile...
|
| Octopus Energy has some further tips:
| https://octopus.energy/blog/winter-workout-gas-saving-tips/
| chippiewill wrote:
| Don't forget to try hugging your pets too!
| mancerayder wrote:
| People have difference tolerance and comfort levels, some genetic
| and some health related. We all know people who walk around in a
| t-shirt in 0 degree C weather, and others who chill easily. Still
| others who start to feel unwell in temperatures above 30 C, while
| others thrive.
|
| Any one-size-fits-all policy that makes a quarter or whatever of
| the population uncomfortable, is a non-starter.
| neverminder wrote:
| Better insulation alone would solve this problem and then some. I
| live in London which is not particularly cold, but I haven't
| turned on my heating in years now. My building is about 15 years
| old and insulated to more recent standards. There are plenty of
| other people who live in older houses that unfortunately are not
| energy efficient at all, so they have to regularly use the
| heating.
| henrikschroder wrote:
| There's a joke in Sweden about English housing, and it goes
| like this:
|
| "Hey, do you know why the English run their water pipes on the
| outside of their houses?"
|
| "No?"
|
| "It's so that they can get to them easier when they freeze!"
|
| And then everyone laughs.
|
| ...and then years later you visit England, find out that it's
| actually _true_ , and then you cry.
|
| It's pretty eye-opening how terrible the insulation standards
| are outside the Nordics. It's one of those things we take for
| absolutely granted, and then you realize that absolutely no-one
| else really does this.
|
| This video made the rounds a couple of years ago:
|
| https://www.instagram.com/p/B2zi5GKFCf_/
|
| Everyone from the Nordics commenting on it went "aawwww, how
| cute!", everyone else went "OMG THE HEATING BILL!!??!??!"
|
| No, look at how the snow is piled up against the windows
| without melting. Those are quadruple-paned insulated panoramic
| windows. They do not leak heat.
| jopsen wrote:
| Spot on.. also many Nordic cities also have district heating,
| which can utilize surplus heat from power production.
| ed_balls wrote:
| Connecting district heating is not a good investment
| anymore (unless it's a building with 20+ flats and you want
| to save space in the apartments)
|
| Triple glazed windows, 25+cm insulation, heat pump + heat
| recuperation, solar panels and you have a passive home. No
| need for gas which is a fire hazard.
| jopsen wrote:
| Hmm, heat pumps are certainly attractive..
|
| But if you're building a new house, wouldn't you roll in
| district heating if readily available.
|
| Agreed, patching district heating into an old house might
| be hard/expensive.
| lucb1e wrote:
| https://dro.pm/b.mp4/preview for those not wanting to use
| facebook (link valid for 18 hours)
| silvestrov wrote:
| with insulated houses like this the heat from humans is a
| problem when having family over.
|
| The Nordics have crazy high standards for insulation. We've
| reached the point where increasing the standards no longer
| makes sense.
| KingOfCoders wrote:
| We have stopped heating by gas for the time being and switched to
| infrared heating in one place of the apartment.
| JanMa wrote:
| How happy are you with the infrared heating? I've been thinking
| about getting some as well
| aurizon wrote:
| Many people fail to asses heat leakage. Often houses are badly
| sealed - think of a balloon - blow it like a flat tire, and spray
| it with soapy water and look for bubbles. Older houses are full
| of leaks, especially around foundation, corners of walls, windows
| and attic. These are often long linear seams that were never well
| sealed. If you take them as areas and sum them up. many old
| houses have a 1-3 square foot hole(equivalent) that vents
| upwards. Out at the top goes all the air you paid to heat and in
| at the bottom comes cold air, add $$ to heat. There are people
| with FLIR cameras. A pack of ideas here.
| https://www.google.com/search?q=FLIR+heat+leak&rlz=1C1CHBF_e...
|
| Sadly there are a lot of scammers out there, but the cost has
| dropped a lot, so many people/groups could buy one, or rent one
| of the costly ones for a week and test all your houses. Works
| best on a cold night where the heat loss shows up well and the
| sun does not hinder reading. There are also apps for android and
| ios phone that let you record data. There are also FLIR plugins
| etc via Aliexpress etc.
|
| https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=S...
|
| At some of the larger (LA, SF etc) swapmeets there are importers
| who sell them, so you can look-see in advance
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| A mildly wider change would be to look up all the things that
| your local equivalent of the energy saving trust recommends:
|
| https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/energy-at-home/
|
| They usually recommend turning down the thermostat in rooms you
| aren't using, and setting a timer to fit your schedule but
| there's a bunch of low hanging fruit that will make your home
| cosier, save you money, help save the planet and annoy fossil
| fuel oligarchs, all without any cost to yourself except using
| this media coverage to spur you into action.
|
| One that they might not list, but which is interestingly geeky
| and so might appeal to HN, is short term rental of infra red
| camera to find where homes are leaking heat (best done during
| cold weather).
| enqk wrote:
| I heat my home at 17.5c and it's quite comfortable, even for
| programming, if you have good clothes.
| lucb1e wrote:
| Indeed, clothing is key here. And you need to start off warm:
| most people probably know the situation of warm socks and shoes
| not helping for already-cold feet.
|
| - Before having to pay my own energy bill and, honestly,
| actually being aware at all that this is a choice, I would sit
| in a t-shirt and just heat up my bedroom to (presumably, I
| didn't measure back then) 23degC.
|
| - With a cardigan* over the t-shirt, 21degC is just fine as
| well.
|
| - Add one thin layer of long underpants and put up the hood of
| your cardigan and 19degC is fine as well.
|
| - Second cardigan (I have a big comfy one that nicely fits over
| others) makes 17degC be on the low side but still warm enough.
|
| - To go 16degC or lower, I need to add clothing that starts to
| impair mobility, like a jacket/coat meant for outside. Arms are
| fine; but fingers, legs, and feet get cold within two hours.
| This is a bit too extreme for me.
|
| To-dos / failed things:
|
| - I need to look into thicker pants meant to keep heat in
| rather than just look stylish (jeans) or act as underwear.
|
| - For hands, I've tried fingerless gloves for typing reasons
| but I couldn't get used to it (it kept impairing my typing) and
| I ditched that idea again.
|
| - A radiant heat source like infrared lamp is also a thing I'm
| considering, but I'd have to position it somehow to heat my
| hands and the one my girlfriend got has a _very_ bright red
| color (and I 'd want to check what the effect of that
| level/strength IR is on my eyes).
|
| - A heated mouse helps (over longer periods of time it's
| noticeable, even at just 2.5W USB) but only for one hand, so
| it's not really a solution. Heated keyboard seems harder to
| make and has a lot of surface where heat gets lost.
|
| - Intermittent movement, like 5 minutes of treadmill every hour
| is something I'm considering. Might also help towards exercise
| in general, since my current exercise scheme is nonexistent,
| but I wonder if that would add up to be enough or if it needs
| to be 30 minutes of continuous movement before it's in the
| realm of reasonably enough to stay healthy.
|
| * Not a native speaker: I had not heard the word cardigan
| before. As wikipedia says on the sweater page: nomenclature can
| be quite confusing. What I mean is something thicker than a
| blouse but thinner than an outdoors jacket, with sleeves (long
| enough to cover your wrists), a zipper that can be closed, and
| often but not necessarily a hood. Hope I got the right word.
| beebeepka wrote:
| We have the AC set 21 because of the wife. I think it should be
| 19 or even off. It's been 10-15 degrees for a while during the
| day.
| empressplay wrote:
| In Australia, the state of Victoria in particular, most houses
| are not heated outside of the 'lounge room' which is not itself
| generally heated overnight. In the winter months it routinely
| gets down to or below 0C. Energy is expensive and many houses are
| not sealed properly.
|
| As such, Australians tend to wear more clothing indoors during
| the winter months, including hats and sometimes even gloves.
| Electric blankets and hot water bottles tend to be used in
| bedrooms. Doors between rooms are kept closed, and only rooms
| that have people in them are heated, and only while people are in
| them.
|
| So yes, if people in the EU were willing to accept living like
| this in the winter, they could save a lot of energy. Similarly,
| in the summer, most Australian houses only cool a single room,
| and even at that set the AC to around 27 degrees. If people in
| the EU lived like Australians, they could most likely survive
| without Russian gas.
| pc86 wrote:
| This honestly sounds like a dreadful way to live.
| scalesolved wrote:
| It reaches 0C inside?
| Symbiote wrote:
| It seems unlikely to get that cold indoors (unless the
| windows are left open?!) when the record low for Melbourne is
| only -3degC.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Melbourne#Climate_s.
| ..
| genewitch wrote:
| people were dying in Texas last year because their houses
| went down to 3-4C indoors.
| [deleted]
| asiachick wrote:
| I don't want CTS and IIUC cold hands are bad. I can bundle up my
| body but my fingers have to be out for working which means cold
| is NG
|
| One thing I have found is of course heat rises. I put a fan on
| the floor pointed at 45 degrees toward the ceiling and suddenly
| my place is warm with the same heating settings. I've done this
| at the last 4 places I've lived and the difference is striking.
| One place even used those high wall mounted air-conditioning +
| heater that blow the air out but it wasn't enough without the
| extra fan for circulation.
|
| If you want to save energy, insulate or move somewhere warmer
| nmasse-itix wrote:
| According to ADEME, you can save around 7% energy per degC
| bluGill wrote:
| You are asking the wrong question. While you could save fuel that
| way, far more can be saved by insulation and turing temperatures
| to where you feel comfortable, and the with better insulation you
| don't have to suffer message is a winner with people who in
| abstract agree with saving fuel until it hurts them.
|
| The real question then is how can you insulate every place in
| your country better.
|
| The above is a complex question. There is the supply chain of
| insulation, contractors to do the work, and how to pay for it
| all. Still it is worth looking at.
| _Algernon_ wrote:
| Insulation is irrelevant to the question given the context of
| Russia stopping gas deliveries to Europe due to SWIFT
| sanctions. There simply isn't time to insulate enough houses to
| make a difference. It would take years.
| landemva wrote:
| Why give up? Individuals can act locally to make their
| situation more resilient.
| _Algernon_ wrote:
| Where did I suggest giving up?
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| The question is about what can be done immediately. Insulating
| existing buildings is a long term project; in fact it is
| something that the UK has been failing to do over the last
| several decades. But reducing average household temperatures
| can be done overnight and in fact we have done it in the UK
| before in the energy crises of the 1970's when people were
| urged to turn the heating down to 68degF (20degC) and
| commercial operations were reduced to three days of operation
| per week.
| Fronzie wrote:
| "a bit of all" can be done immediately. A bit improved
| isolation, solar panels, wind farms, more working from home
| (to reduce travel), it all adds up.
| Symbiote wrote:
| It was (probably) originally my question [1] in another
| discussion. I turned my heating down yesterday, and will fiddle
| with it more on Sunday evening to make sure it fits my at-
| home/out pattern -- it needs adjusting since I've recently
| stopped working from home.
|
| We should look at insulation (for example, last year there were
| big protests in Britain pushing for this[2]), but it will take
| months or years to complete changes. Turning down the heating
| can be done in seconds.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30479093
|
| [2] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/insulate-britain
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| I think the OP is asking in the context of losing access to or
| intentionally not buying Russian gas.
|
| So the question should be framed in the context of the
| timeframe being days not months. If you want to significantly
| reduce energy consumption instantly, turning the thermostat
| down is incredibly effective while you work on longer timescale
| things like insulation and alternate heating sources.
| ciccionamente wrote:
| I was thinking exactly this.
| moonchrome wrote:
| How efficient are inverter ACs for heating if it's >0 outside
| ? Anyone has cost comparison that would ballpark it ?
| bluGill wrote:
| Depends, some do a lot better than others, but in general
| until it is below freezing by a bit heat pumps are overall
| more efficient.
| hectormalot wrote:
| There is a great (German) database with heat pump
| performance. You can switch to English on the right top:
| https://www.waermepumpen-
| verbrauchsdatenbank.de/index.php?bu...
|
| There's quite some monthly data on Air/Water systems
| (extracting heat from outside air, into a central heating
| system). I suppose good Air/Air systems could be similar.
| Indeed above >0, or at least >5C it would be beneficial
| (even more so if you also have PV installed)
| opensores wrote:
| 3C is a lot if you're talking Celsius--but I do this at night
| (set thermostat to 60F-61F) as cold temps under layers of blanket
| is actually beneficial to sleeping.
|
| Older houses sometimes still can benefit from insulation
| improvements.
|
| So go in this order:
|
| 1. effective insulation
|
| 2. conscientious and smart use of energy and avoidance of very
| inefficient heating systems. avoid heating large areas when they
| don't really need to be at very warm temperatures. (careful
| though to avoid damp cold range of temperatures where wood rot
| and permanent damage to homes will happen). Avoid unburnt natural
| gas, eg in badly maintained or cheap cooktops. The ideal
| household kitchen has ~ 4 gas burners, and one or two induction
| burners flush with the counter, eg
| https://www.amazon.com/Countertop-Portable-Induction-170-Min...
| This minimizes unlit gas for those very short heating needs in
| the kitchen.
|
| 3. think about upgrading to very efficient systems. These most
| promising could be (depending on your area and scale of heating
| needs):
|
| -- electric-heat cogeneration
|
| -- heat pumps that use the large volume of ground underneath the
| basement as geothermal heat-mass reservoir. Heat the ground mass
| during the summer to provide AC, and squirrel away the cold
| thermal mass during late fall and late winter+spring.
| zamalek wrote:
| 1.5: wherever possible, heat people and not rooms. The BedJet
| is one easy example of this, but there are others.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Who leaves their heating on at night?
| blindmute wrote:
| Who doesn't? I keep my house at 23C. The cost is negligible.
| I don't want to wake up to pee and be shivering in the
| bathroom.
| jopsen wrote:
| My house has district heating, feeding into floor.. turning
| heat up/down takes effect many hours later.
|
| House is also well insulated, with heat recycling
| ventilation. Objective is to keep a consistent temperature.
| durovo wrote:
| When saying things like this, it is better to contextualize
| by giving some information about where you live. Some people
| live in areas where temperatures go as low as -20~30 C and
| not leaving the heating on can damage the house
| infrastructure. In other areas, where the temperatures only
| go down to -2~3C, you can get away with never turning the
| heating on.
| jan_g wrote:
| If you have floor heating + heat pump, then the manufacturer
| recommendation is to keep it running 24/7 from October to
| April. That's for the climate where I live, elsewhere this
| period may be shorter.
| lucb1e wrote:
| Why though? Is it to not have disappointed customers
| because it takes 4 hours to heat up and it's harder to
| explain to people how to set a timer to turn on at 3am, or
| because keeping a higher temperature delta between indoors
| and outdoors is actually more efficient with this system?
| genewitch wrote:
| I'd wager it's to prevent damage if the stuff inside the
| pipes freezes/expands.
| bialpio wrote:
| I do (suburbs of Seattle), otherwise my house would not stay
| above 17C overnight, especially with the last few nights we
| had.
| dageshi wrote:
| Is there some reason why that's an issue if you're in bed?
| I live in the UK and well we don't put the heating on at
| night ever. Doesn't matter if it's a snowstorm or below
| freezing outside. Heating comes on first thing in the
| morning, but overnight you'd be pretty much fine in bed.
| dgellow wrote:
| Every places I lived at in Germany the heating system is
| turned off at night for the entire building. Same in
| Switzerland. I always assumed that was the norm?
| reedf1 wrote:
| Theoretically we wouldn't save much. Given a home with good
| insulation it shouldn't take much more energy a few more degrees.
| Obviously it depends on the outside temperature.
| vcdimension wrote:
| Apart from the reductions in energy bills & carbon emissions,
| there would also be a general improvement in health. Central
| heating has been implicated in the diabetes epidemic that plagues
| Western socieities:
| https://www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2017/apr/cooler-temperatures...
| Panino wrote:
| I've been keeping my house at 55F/13C this winter, not for money
| reasons, but because of climate change. Last winter I got used to
| 60F/15.5C, which now feels super warm and unnecessary.
|
| So here's my advice for people:
|
| 1. Start today! Don't wait to see what happens in Ukraine. Lower
| your temperature by 1 degree right now. Just do it. 1 little
| degree isn't a big deal. Let your body acclimate to that. It'll
| happen on its own - our bodies constantly adjust to different
| temperatures throughout the year. Know that a temperature barely
| lower than you're used to won't give you hypothermia. It's not a
| threat to you. It's just a slightly different temperature so
| embrace it. Welcome the change, mentally choosing it. Once you're
| comfortable, lower the temperature again. Rinse and repeat. If
| you do this, you'll look back and be shocked at how you once
| thought a homeostasis temperature was necessary (or even
| desirable).
|
| 2. Eventually you'll feel the need for extra heating. The most
| efficient ways are directly heating the body through appropriate
| clothing and direct heat sources. For clothing, if you're cold,
| just add more. For direct heat, use a hot water bottle. You can
| also get an electric bed mattress pad. A heated mattress pad is
| _amazing_.
|
| 3. Warm food and drink: in summer, drink cold things. In winter,
| drink warm things. Eat warm foods like porridge
| (oatmeal/grits/cream of wheat/etc.), soup/stew, etc. When
| drinking, hold the hot mug in your hand. When eating, hold the
| hot bowl in your hand.
|
| 3. Water conservation - a lot of the water we use has been
| heated, for showers, washing hands, etc. Efficient showerheads
| and faucet aerators are CHEAP! Some of them have their usage
| etched into the side, if not, you can measure its flow rate with
| a measuring cup and a stopwatch. Once you know how much it uses,
| look into upgrades. When showering, turn the water on, get wet.
| Turn off the water. Soap your whole body, then wash the soap off.
| Now you're almost done with ~45 seconds of water use. It's easier
| in summer, but I'm now doing this in winter also.
|
| Those are the basics and you'll get better with time. Eventually
| you'll be able to see heat like Dr. Manhattan sees atoms. You'll
| just see it everywhere, how it moves in and out of the system,
| and how you can harness and hold on to it, using it multiple
| times before it's gone.
| vcdimension wrote:
| I hardly used any extra heating at all this winter, neither
| central heating nor spot heating. I've been having cold showers
| every morning, and allowing myself to shiver, and I feel great.
| If it gets uncomfortably cold I just put on more clothes.
| Sometime I use an electric blanket at night, which uses a
| fraction of the energy of an electric heater or central
| heating. The shivering helps to burn fat, and stimulate the
| production of healthy brown fat which has been implicated in
| many beneficial health outcomes such as better insulin
| response, bone density, and longevity:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_adipose_tissue
| zdragnar wrote:
| A bit of context on where you are would help.
|
| Here in the upper Midwest in the US, not having your heat
| running during the coldest winter days (-40 wind chills)
| means your plumbing would freeze and pipes burst in a day or
| two, less if it is an older house.
| vcdimension wrote:
| I'm in the south east of the UK, but the point I'm making
| applies almost anywhere in the Western world; it's
| perfectly possible, and even healthier, to get by at a much
| lower indoor temperature than most people are accustomed
| to.
| safog wrote:
| That's nuts, we're at 70F most of the time and like 65F when
| sleeping.
| user568439 wrote:
| My hands get cold at 18,5 C, I tried to set it lower but I'm
| really not comfortable. I used fingerless gloves to work with
| the keyboard and this helped me to go a bit lower, maybe 17,5
| but it's not ideal. When I'm moving it can be colder and when
| I'm in bed or sofa I use a blanket or anything so it can also
| be lower, but for using the PC I really need 18,5 C.
| akira2501 wrote:
| If we're reducing room heat to the point that it generally
| harms productivity, that doesn't seem like a net gain in the
| system. At that point it seems far more useful to consider
| things like better insulation and building design standards
| that it does what the thermostat is set to.
|
| Either that or like you.. I'm going to need a heated desk,
| keyboard and mouse.
| landemva wrote:
| 55F is uncomfortably cold for many people. My heat goes down to
| 55F at night when I am bundled in bed.
|
| My experience is that leak sealing based on results of blower
| air test brings nice heating use reduction while fixing the
| cold/drafty areas. After that take off window trim molding and
| spray foam both inside and out. Then apply extra insulation
| AFTER sealing. Maybe then another blower door test. If you
| start by replacing windows it will be expensive and less
| effective.
| logifail wrote:
| > Lower your temperature by 1 degree right now
|
| Not wishing to open a(nother) can of HN-worms, but what happens
| if you share your home with members of the opposite sex?
|
| My wife and my daughter are the two members of the household
| who complain about feeling cold. In the winter they each want a
| hot water bottle to take to bed.
|
| My sons and I just don't seem to mind .. and all the bedrooms
| are at the same temperature!
| lucb1e wrote:
| If they aren't to be convinced of the cause then there's no
| choice right? Then your bedroom will just be colder than
| theirs, and shared spaces could meet in the middle (sofa can
| have blankets; at dinner there is hot food; at lunch you
| might need to heat the eating room a bit more).
|
| And it depends on how extreme you want to go: 13degC is
| laudable but I'm trying to do the same and 16-17degC is the
| limit before I need to put on a real winter coat and actually
| impair comfort/mobility while working on my computer. And
| that's with headwear and everything (which I take off for
| customer video calls, to come across a bit more
| professionally...). If you'd want to go 13degC then I guess
| shared spaces might be more towards the comfort side of the
| spectrum.
| logifail wrote:
| > If they aren't to be convinced of the cause then there's
| no choice right? Then your bedroom will just be colder than
| theirs [..]
|
| Not wishing to be completely silly, but you've obviously
| not met my wife and daughter. You are correct in one sense,
| there is no choice: the [whole] house will be warm.
|
| At a slightly less silly level: I'm not sure we win the
| climate debate by picking fights within our immediate
| families.
| lucb1e wrote:
| Yeah, if it's a contentious issue then it's not really a
| win. For me it's easier with just one other person who
| works in another (toasty) room.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Buy them nice sweaters :-)
| maccard wrote:
| > but what happens if you share your home with members of the
| opposite sex?
|
| No reason to bring sex into it. My girlfriend complains that
| our home is too warm meanwhile I sit under a blanket with a
| hot water bottle.
| logifail wrote:
| Science:
|
| _New study reveals the evolutionary reason why women feel
| colder than men_ https://phys.org/news/2021-10-reveals-
| evolutionary-women-col...
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Be on the lookout for moisture and mold. I tried to isolate my
| basement from being heated last winter, and my reward was that
| everything stored there got moldy. You need to maintain a
| temperature warm enough to reduce relative humidity, or run a
| dehumidifier.
| endisneigh wrote:
| That's pretty incredible - I could never get used to 55F
| indoors other than when I'm sleeping.
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| been spending last summer in high altitude. firing up the gas
| heater was really expensive and fire not always practical.
| During days I got used to wearing functional clothing to keep
| me dry, a wooly hat, a warm soup for lunch. It was weird
| initially but got used to it fast. I even liked it after a
| while since I learned to really appreciate the act of making
| the place warm for 3-4 hours every evening, take a shot
| shower, cook etc ... Not something I previously considered
| I'd derive pleasure from as I'd always taken this for
| granted.
| landemva wrote:
| What is high altitude for you?
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| not that high 2200m-2600m. But temperature wise it was
| tough ... woke up to snow on regular basis in August. the
| surrounding peaks were all +4000m / glaciers. weather
| could be 4 seasons in a single day.
| opportune wrote:
| It's 12C/54F in my apartment right now, and while I'm very
| much in favor of people lowering their temps as much as they
| can, I wouldn't expect most people to put up with it. This is
| around the temperature that my knuckles get stiff.
| kkfx wrote:
| IMVHO you can't get other answer than: try it an measure...
|
| Energy consumption does not depend ONLY by the target temp but
| ALSO by the external temp, or the Dt between them, the level of
| insulation of your house, how airtight (and eventually with what
| kind of VMC you have) etc even approximated answers can't be much
| meaningful.
|
| What I can testify having switched from a "classic" (low
| insulation, no good vent etc) home to a new "class A" (french BBC
| to be more precise) one is that insulation, ventilation, good
| passive heating (windows on south, well exposed to the low winter
| Sun, but covered for the high summer Sun) does work enormously
| well. Or, the "Green New Deal" do have some tangible basis,
| unfortunately it's not much practical in most of the EU, at least
| in cities and in general in dense area, to rebuild anything
| accordingly, especially in a short term.
|
| If you want to save money and have a better life, my _real_
| suggestion is: flee the city, looking for a home you can afford,
| one in a reasonably served place and do your best to telework.
| You like it or not that 's the direction we heading, so the
| better you can get in this direction the batter you'll get paid
| off in the future... Other "emergency gimmick" do not really
| work, if they it's too little for too much effort, or they are
| simple raw cuts like "to save money do not go on holidays" witch
| might work in some short term terms, but are not much sustainable
| in the long run...
| Skiiing wrote:
| 3c doesn't sound like much, but reducing from 20c to 17c would be
| the different between comfortable and miserable.
| goodpoint wrote:
| 17 is perfectly ok. Just wear thermal underwear and a sweater.
| PedroBatista wrote:
| "Miserable" is a bit too much no? An extra layer of light
| clothing or getting up a doing a few steps will more than
| compensate for that.
|
| I personally thing that "huge" sacrifice is feasible specially
| when the comfortableness is directly related to democratic
| countries being invaded on what is just the first step of
| something even much more sinister.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| '"Miserable" is a bit too much no?'
|
| No.
| Flankk wrote:
| No. 17degC is ridiculously cold. Do you suggest wearing
| gloves as well? Room temp in the winter is 23-25degC.
| sealeck wrote:
| 17 degrees might _feel_ cold, but it's definitely not cold
| at a level that's problematic to the human body. If it's a
| choice between wearing your coat inside or Russia taking
| over Ukraine, I think we should seriously opt for the
| former.
| gherkinnn wrote:
| No. 25c is ridiculously hot. Do you suggest I drape a wet
| rag over my forehead as well? Room temp above 20c borders
| on criminal.
| durovo wrote:
| Yeah, this is the right place to fight about who has
| better tolerance for either extremes of heat without
| recognizing that people grow up in and adapt to very
| different climates.
| gherkinnn wrote:
| That was my point.
| durovo wrote:
| My apologies. Point taken
| bbarnett wrote:
| As a Canuck, who lives where June is 17C, and doesn't wear
| anything but a tshirt and pants, and often shorts at 17C,
| this gloves comment amuses me.
|
| Gloves get worn at maybe -5C, -10C. Maybe.
| slavik81 wrote:
| As a Canadian myself, 17degC would be very cold for an
| indoor space. The standard recommendations (for offices
| at least) are much higher than that.
|
| > Canadian Standards Association (CSA) and ASHRAE
| standards are used for thermal comfort and ventilation in
| indoor offices [....] These standards are a good resource
| to use when considering the thermal conditions in indoor
| office space.
|
| > According to CSA standards Z1004-12 - Work place
| Ergonomics - the comfort level at work is determined by
| temperature, humidity, wind and work-rest cycle. The
| optimal temperature range for office comfort should be 23
| to 26 degC with 50% relative humidity in summers and 20
| to 23.5degC at 50% relative humidity in winter.
|
| https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-
| development/servi...
| bbarnett wrote:
| No Scotsman be you!
|
| (Also, at best "cool', not 'very cold'. Let's have proper
| scaling here.)
| opportune wrote:
| My apartment gets to 17C all the time, I live in SF and
| never use heating. I do wear a sweater or hoodie during the
| day and use a thick comforter at night, but it's not bad
| (the cold air temp actually is really good for my sleep).
| You do need to make sure not to drink large amounts of cold
| liquid at once though.
|
| I could see someone living their whole life in a tropical
| climate not being able to tolerate these temps, but in
| almost all of Europe this is a normal outdoor temperature.
| In the parts of Europe that actually get cold enough to
| need active heating, it's nothing. You would get used to it
| pretty quickly.
| MandieD wrote:
| 17 is a bit on the chilly side indoors, but 23-25 in the
| winter (sweater season) sounds like a sweaty, awful, and,
| even before current events, expensive time.
|
| 21 is cozy, 20 is absolutely fine, 19 during the day is
| where we're at now because toddler (who seems to be
| adapting better than me). We've been 18 at night for years
| - a big ol' down comforter from my in-laws makes that
| ideal.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| At 21degC I can work normally at home (21.5degC to 25degC means
| absolute comfort to me), sitting behind a desk. At 20degC I am
| uncomfortable. Extra clothing doesn't help: anything beyond the
| thick jumper and fluffy slippers annoys me just as much as the
| lower temperature. I usually have to stop and take a hot shower
| in the middle of the day to get back to some semblance of
| comfort (not really conserving energy there then). At 19degC
| and lower I am miserable. Something to do with being tall and
| slim I guess. In summer heat my range of comfortable
| temperatures lies a few degrees higher too, so that evens out.
|
| 19degC is fine if I'm remodelling, hoovering, doing the dishes,
| or anything else that involves not sitting behind a desk, and I
| don't mind being out in freezing cold as long as I'm moving and
| have very, very good gloves on, but working behind a desk with
| my brain requires my body to be comfortable, relaxed, and not
| annoyed by stiff fingers hitting the wrong keys.
| andai wrote:
| When the gas prices went up a few months ago I decided to
| turn off the heating in my apartment completely and see how
| far I could get. In the beginning it was about 16-17C which
| felt unpleasant, but by the time the indoor temp dropped to
| 12-13C a few weeks later, my metabolism had adjusted and it
| felt quite comfortable.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Great! My body doesn't adjust to that. It's only a minor
| hindrance in the grand scheme of things, but it sometimes
| does annoy me (and others whose comfort zone starts at a
| slightly higher temperature than the majority) when people
| think the problem is purely one of lack of acclimatization
| or grit.
|
| I can adjust to higher temperatures just fine, but not
| sitting still (even with regular active breaks) at anything
| below 21degC. Our company used to rent office space when we
| were a startup in a place that didn't turn on the heating
| until temperatures outside dropped below a certain
| threshold. Sometimes this meant 19degC or 20degC for weeks:
| I don't get used to it; it just stops me being productive
| (and nice).
| Riseed wrote:
| I'm much the same. Coworkers and roommates tell me to add
| layers and drink tea, but layers and hot tea make no
| difference if it's consistently 20oC or below. My brain
| just does not work for anything more demanding than
| deleting junk mail. Thank goodness for space heaters.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| > when people think the problem is purely one of lack of
| acclimatization or grit.
|
| In most situations, I feel like people talking
| extensively about grit assume the difficulty level is the
| same for everyone. And they tend to be antagonistic
| towards people who try to explain why some things are
| more difficult and instead double down on pushing grit.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > At 20degC I am uncomfortable. Extra clothing doesn't help
| [...] I usually have to stop and take a hot shower in the
| middle of the day to get back to some semblance of comfort
|
| I wonder how many people feel that way. I've never heard of
| anyone having to take a hot shower to keep warm in a 20degC
| room no matter the clothing. I wonder if it's just a taboo,
| something that simply doesn't come up, or if this happens to
| one in a thousand.
|
| As for tall and slim, I'm also Dutch so I imagine I'd have
| heard of this more than zero times before if that were the
| main cause.
| LightG wrote:
| Can confirm. My wife doesn't mind it at 17c ... I need it at
| least to be 20c, preferably 21/22c.
|
| We're talking to our lawyers.
| petercooper wrote:
| Back when we used to have offices rather than WFH, we
| eventually had employees sit in different rooms by their
| preferred room temperature rather than any practical
| function. There was so much silly behavior over the matter
| that was resolved by this (like people insisting on wearing
| coats and blankets in a 20C room because it was "freezing").
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| That's really amusing. Did it have any positive effect
| (aside from solving the AC control war). Wondering if it
| improved cross pollination of ideas between teams.
| petercooper wrote:
| Not really. The company was reasonably small at the time
| (about 10 people) and most work done in the cloud anyway,
| so resolving the temperature dispute was the biggest win.
| gw67 wrote:
| It arrivinh spring soon, so it's a problem until next Sept-
| October 2022
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| Save even more by working remotely from Lisbon through the
| winter! I haven't used a single heat source besides my electric
| blanket (approx. 500 Watt-hour/day) all year. And my house has
| poor insulation and bad sun exposure to boot. I spent the whole
| afternoon at the beach last Wednesday, it was so warm outside.
|
| The only risk is you might not want to go back home for spring.
| zoover2020 wrote:
| Where do you live if it's not winter? Do you rent out your
| place?
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| Still Lisbon :) This is a poorly-hidden advertisement for my
| home town. That said I know plenty of people renting their
| flats in London, Amsterdam etc for a few months while they
| soak up the sun here.
| bool3max wrote:
| Very condescending advice. Refrain from giving more in the
| future.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| I'm sure you're a hoot at parties but I'll spell it out for
| you if I have to: It's a tongue-in-cheek suggestion on a lazy
| saturday.
| asdadsdad wrote:
| how's tech in Lisbon right now?
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| I'm not really involved in Lisbon's tech environment but
| from what I can see around me it's still a lot more
| lucrative to live in Lisbon but do your work for a market
| abroad. Top .5% salaries here wouldn't buy half an intern
| in San Francisco. As far as community goes... You'll meet
| people to have a drink with but that's mostly it.
| a1371 wrote:
| 23% ish.
|
| It's not naive. Going to "pure" building science (I studied this
| in uni) the formula for the building heat loss is Q=U.A.dT where
| dT is the temperature difference between indoors and the
| outdoors.
|
| If you assume that outdoors is 5degC on average in year, and
| indoors is 21degC, dT is 16. reducing the indoor temp to 18degC
| puts the dT at 13.
|
| Since everything else stays the same, you'd expect a 23% decrease
| in heat loss (Q). And that much less energy need to be
| replenished.
|
| In the real world buildings are more complicated than that. Also
| you may risk giving more people diseases and reduce cognitive
| abilities when things get cold. So perhaps also tell the public
| to dress warmer and drink more hot fluids.
| brudgers wrote:
| In the US, heating energy loads are calculated on degree-days.
|
| This captures the expected dT on days when heating is required
| and ignores days when heating is not used. In the summer for
| example...
|
| ...except in the US cooling is also common so it actually
| captures both heating and cooling and involves multiple energy
| sources in many locations...which brings up that degree-days
| are highly variable at the local level -- consider the
| difference between Norway and Greece in the EU.
|
| degree-day https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/units-and-
| calculators/de...
| fennecfoxen wrote:
| US figures are available which can tell you both heating-
| degree-days and cooling-degree-days.
| japanuspus wrote:
| Same in Europe, at least in Denmark. Source: my dad is a
| civil engineer who has been doing renewables since the oil
| crisis in the 1970'es.
| hkt wrote:
| Don't forget hot water bottles. Excellent recent post from Low
| Tech Magazine on this:
|
| https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2022/01/the-revenge-of-the...
|
| tl;dr is that heating people rather than spaces is a great idea
| with much more mileage than we give it credit for.
| appleiigs wrote:
| I'll try using one as a wrist rest. In a cold room I can
| dress warm, but can't type with gloves on. The Jayne
| Mansfield hot water bottle would warm me up in more ways than
| one!
| Earw0rm wrote:
| This.
|
| It's widely accepted that ebikes are some of the most energy
| efficient personal transport possible, because they're moving
| so little vehicle mass relative to passenger payload. Just
| 250 watts can give you rapid enough point to point mobility
| for trips up to 10 miles or so.
|
| In the same way, heating and insulating people is vastly more
| efficient than heating air and brick walls. 100w of active
| electric heating together with a couple of layers of clothing
| is plenty to keep most people pretty comfortable at an
| ambient temperature of 14-15c.
| turtlebits wrote:
| Electric blankets are great too. The model I have only
| consumes 60W.
| prof-dr-ir wrote:
| More precisely you say that we would save 23% of our heating
| expenses. But not all of our heating is from gas, and gas is
| not exclusively used for heating. So this is only a first step
| towards answering the original question.
| whiddershins wrote:
| Occupied gas heating. Many residences and almost all offices
| maintain lower setpoint when unoccupied.
| roughly wrote:
| I seem to recall running the HVAC system also doing some work
| to keep the humidity in the building low, and that being
| factored into building design - that sound right or ring any
| bells?
| whiddershins wrote:
| Shouldn't be a factor in winter.
| WithinReason wrote:
| You can't use the average.
|
| Example: Let's say for half year the average temperature is
| 11degC and for half year it's 31degC. That gives an average
| temp of 21degC and a dT of 0, even though you would still need
| to heat for half a year.
| disiplus wrote:
| i assume the 5C average is the average for the heating
| season, not for the whole year.
| idoubtit wrote:
| In my opinion, it is naive.
|
| First of all, the average yearly temperature means nothing for
| indoor heating. Suppose this average is 20degC: it could be
| half of the year at 5degC and half at 35deg. It's even more
| complex, for instance if cold days and hot days alternate they
| have very little impact. The heating is mostly needed when the
| temperature stays low several days in a row.
|
| Then, there are external sources of heat, like sun or human
| heat. They can increase the indoor temperature for a few
| degrees. I worked for years in an office, facing South, with no
| heating even when it was freezing outside, and it was okay.
|
| Finally, the formula does not imply what you said. In plain
| words, it means the energy (heat) is proportional to the mass
| and the temperature difference. The factor depends on the
| material. So it does mean that increasing the temperature of
| 13deg instead of 16deg uses about 23% less energy. But it does
| not mean that this much energy is needed to _keep_ this
| temperature inside a building. Suppose that, with an external
| temperature of 7deg (the average for my city for February) an
| insulated building at 20deg would lose 5deg a day. Then dT=5 in
| the formula above. Whereas the same building at 17deg would
| lose 3deg per day, so dT=3, a 40% decrease in the energy
| needed.
|
| In my opinion, there are too many factors to give a simple
| answer. It know it's possible to estimate this for a single
| building, given a proper model of the weather and sun exposure,
| but it is hard to generalize from an individual response.
| hectormalot wrote:
| your comment about average yearly temperatures is of course
| correct, but in this case it biases in favour of GP:
|
| * It's colder than average today, to reducing the setpoint
| has more effect vs an annual average. If sun takes part of
| the heating, then the ratio of dT to gas saved is even
| bigger.
|
| * The formula actually does work that way, maybe you're
| thinking of a different formula? i.e. Q (flow of heat) is a
| function of some heat transfer coefficient (U), area (A) and
| the temperature difference (dT) between inside and outside.
| So the (simple) correlation between dT and gas consumption to
| maintain a temperature is linear. This will be influenced by
| e.g. wind (increases U, therefore gas consumption) and other
| factors of course.
|
| Anyway, it's winter. If there is any time where you can
| reasonably reduce your gas consumption by lowering the
| thermostat, it's today. In fact, I'll try this now and see if
| it works. Maybe time to start a movement.
|
| (Also note that residential heating and office account for
| roughly a third of gas consumption in e.g. the Netherlands.
| Reducing that by 20% is still 7% reduction in total, and
| potentially a 17.5% reduction in Russian gas given the
| current gas mix)
| can16358p wrote:
| > Also you may risk giving more people diseases and reduce
| cognitive abilities when things get cold.
|
| Could you explain this part? This is exactly opposite of what
| I've seen my entire life.
| driverdan wrote:
| > Also you may risk giving more people diseases
|
| This is an old wife's tale. Especially at 18C. No one is going
| to be getting diseases.
| rozab wrote:
| Good study of excess winter deaths in Europe:
|
| https://jech.bmj.com/content/57/10/784
|
| >most countries suffer from 5% to 30% excess winter mortality
|
| >The strong, positive relation with environmental temperature
| and strong negative relation with thermal efficiency indicate
| that housing standards in southern and western Europe play
| strong parts in such seasonality
| dpatru wrote:
| I get a runny nose if I get cold. Same for my children. From
| an energy perspective, this make sense. If the body is
| expending more energy trying to get warm or not get cold, it
| may not have the necessary energy to fight off germs.
|
| Also, the immune system works better hot, aka fever. Cooling
| the body can be expected to suppress the immune system.
|
| Before you dismiss proverbs (old wives' tales), consider that
| they could persist because they're true.
| goodpoint wrote:
| Dress up.
| leereeves wrote:
| > I get a runny nose if I get cold.
|
| I was curious, so I looked it up, and according to [1] and
| [2], that's a natural reaction to help the nose turn cold,
| dry air into warm, moist air.
|
| _" When cold air enters the nose, it stimulates the
| sensory nerves within the nasal cavity to activate a
| process via a cholinergic reflex or pathway. It causes the
| vessels in the nasal cavity to expand and become engorged,
| leading to congestion and mucus secretion which produces a
| runny nose. It's a compensatory mechanism that's trying to
| maintain ideal conditions inside the nose by adding
| humidity and warmth while filtering the air."_
|
| 1: https://medicine.uq.edu.au/article/2017/10/why-does-
| your-nos...
|
| 2: https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/is-the-cold-weather-
| causi...
| kaba0 wrote:
| I would like to see a source on that, but the human body is
| orders of magnitude more complex than to reason about
| things like "it has to expend more energy" and "fever is
| good". You could pretty much derive every effect from every
| input with these low level "conclusions".
|
| We have evidence-based medicine exactly because even when
| it would seem logical, biology puts a curve on that and the
| opposite of the intended effect happens.
| lucb1e wrote:
| I think when you're calling bullshit, in order for it not to
| become a he-said, she-said situation, you should provide any
| sort of source.
|
| If you sit still at 18degC, working on a computer, you'll get
| very cold before the ~3h of work in the morning is over if
| you don't also adjust your clothing. I don't find it such a
| leap to assume this body temperature change reduces your
| immune system, but then I don't really know. I'd be
| interested in the answer, but at this point OP's argument
| makes more sense to me than yours and neither is backed up
| with links so...
| jart wrote:
| Even with more layers 18degC is low enough to impact joint
| movement which makes it difficult, even in healthy young
| people, to type on a keyboard. Similar to how summer heat
| without A/C interferes with concentration. Brave personal
| sacrifices to save the planet.
| lucb1e wrote:
| Healthy young person here: joints are not a problem at
| 17degC, though I do pack myself in comfortably thick and
| warm clothing so a lot of that will make it into my
| (uncovered) hands. For me 17 is the limit, but definitely
| not yet problematic.
|
| I do notice in the morning if I forget to turn on the
| heater (we're on the ground floor but sandwiched between
| neighbors who seem to keep it toastier) and the room is
| ~15degC. It takes an hour before I get cold after coming
| out of bed, but then, yup, typing is one of the things I
| notice after that time.
| distances wrote:
| Indeed. There's no way I can work at 18degC. Four layers
| of shirts plus wrist warmers won't be enough to keep my
| fingers flexible on the keyboard if I sit still and code.
|
| Edit: and I know this because I start the workday at
| 17degC in winter months. I live in an old building with
| poor-ish window insulation so I turn off heating in most
| rooms for the night, and in the bedroom for the day to
| conserve energy.
| lucb1e wrote:
| I had never heard of the term wrist warmer! Just image-
| searched it, that looks great. I've tried fingerless
| gloves before (some family members have those for
| sailing) but those make it hard to type and I dropped
| that attempt. Will be seeing if I can buy some of those,
| or maybe repurpose some old gloves. Thanks for that :)
|
| > I start the workday at 17degC in winter months. I live
| in an old building with poor-ish window insulation
|
| That might also be your problem rather than the
| temperature. If there is _any_ amount of air movement,
| like even just air being refreshed so to say, that takes
| away any lingering heat and replaces it with new, cold
| air. Of course, everyone 's internal thermostat also
| works differently so I'm not saying this must be it
| but... something to consider.
| genewitch wrote:
| Code on a laptop and mine verium on it too (or whatever,
| 'compile') + an incandescent bulb aimed at your head is a
| decent amount of mitigation for it being 17-18C.
|
| During the cold snap where it was below -15C during the
| night in the southern US last year I did exactly what i
| specified, and i didn't bother using my central heat. I
| haven't used central heat at all for 2 years. I do have
| mini split air systems, but at -15C they spend more time
| defrosting than heating, so the mitigation was to use
| lots of blankets in the bedrooms and turn the minisplits
| to heat at about 6AM to take the chill out for the
| morning routines, but shut them off at 10PM. There's no
| sense in wasting heat defrosting on "less efficient" heat
| pumps.
|
| for perspective it's about 19C(66.2F) and i'm wearing
| shorts and a short sleeve shirt, indoors. One other thing
| that may not be true everywhere is i run de-humidifiers
| nearly year round, so that does dump about 800-1000W in
| the air when they're actively removing moisture, so your
| mileage may vary.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > During the cold snap where it was below -15C during the
| night [...] and i didn't bother using my central heat. I
| haven't used central heat at all for 2 years. [...] i'm
| wearing shorts and a short sleeve shirt, indoors
|
| Yeah something doesn't add up here. Unless that lamp has
| a crazy wattage and you look down at this "mining" laptop
| on your lap for 8 hours a day (no desk, all heat going to
| legs, wrists, and hands), I don't really see this being
| realistic.
| majewsky wrote:
| > if you don't also adjust your clothing
|
| That's the thing though. If you live in an area where
| heating is required in the winter, you definitely have the
| necessary clothing to get through a period of 18 degC in
| your home.
| lostlogin wrote:
| You could take the terrible example we live by here in
| New Zealand. We pretend it doesn't get cold, have poorly
| insulated and rather damp houses and just suffer through
| it. An inside temperature of 18 in midwinter sounds
| lovely. We also lack good wardrobes, but that might just
| be me.
| Hallucinaut wrote:
| NZ housing stock is truly atrocious. I knew it was bad
| but didn't appreciate how bad until living in the UK and
| going through winters sometimes without even needing to
| use heating (granted in apartments in that situation).
| Double glazing being near universal compared to pathetic
| aluminium frames are a major difference and leaky
| buildings top it off.
| midasuni wrote:
| Looked at emigrating to NZ shortly after the kids were
| born - so many friends had.
|
| I was shocked by the housing situation, prices were going
| crazy sure, that's to be expected, but the actual quality
| of the housing was also terrible, and there wasn't any
| cultural awareness of how bad they were
|
| Didn't move in the end, mainly because we wouldn't have
| the money for the kids to see grandparents. Still not
| sure it was the right decision.
| ip26 wrote:
| It doesn't help as much in a cold snap though, which is peak
| gas demand. If it's -25C outside, each degree C is only ~2%
| change in delta T.
|
| I'm all about dialing back the thermostat, but I've also
| noticed a huge comfort difference between 18C and 19C. Quality
| of life starts to nosedive for a few percent more saving; it's
| better to fix up your house.
| gpm wrote:
| As I understand it europe has significant gas storage
| capabilities. The cold snap creates a demand that can't be
| average out for things like last mile pipelines, but those
| aren't the limitation. Storage should allow for averaging gas
| usage over (I think) the whole winter to decide whether or
| not there is a problem.
| whiddershins wrote:
| Even if this formula works, this would be 23% of heating
| consumption when buildings are occupied, not 23% of all heating
| consumption, and definitely not 23% of all gas usage.
| blfr wrote:
| I think it's quite silly to turn off nuclear power plants, rely
| on Russian gas, and sit in the cold when we could simply not do
| that.
| IdontRememberIt wrote:
| Not for everybody...
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Business...
| asimops wrote:
| How do I drive my gas boiler with nuclear power?
| drran wrote:
| You need a source of slow neutrons...
| justahuman74 wrote:
| You'd have to purchase an electric one
| PaywallBuster wrote:
| You don't have too
|
| If nuclear is still working, demand for gas will be much
| lower hence lowering the dependency on Russia
|
| (and while Russia is the biggest source, there's
| alternatives, and more will come up due to the conflict)
| markvdb wrote:
| Two things:
|
| - Less uranium is being produced than being consumed.
|
| - The Russian sphere of influence is responsible for most
| uranium exports by far.
| danhor wrote:
| If my calculations are correct, only ~21% of gas used in
| europe is used for electricity, so halving the dependency.
| If combined power and heat plants can't be shut down
| (because they can't be replaced that based and still need
| to produce heat), this results in 12.6% of gas used only in
| electricity only power plants. The latter isn't really that
| useful.
|
| Source for all numbers: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache
| /sankey/energy/sankey.htm...
|
| 16.03e6 TJ gas total
|
| 2.03e6 TJ used for electricity only
|
| 2.30e6 TJ used for electricity & heat, 60% of resulting
| (usable) energy is electricity
|
| -> 1.37TJ
|
| -> 3.40TJ of gas used for electricity, around 21%
| opensores wrote:
| you get it replaced with an electric heat pump tied in to
| ground heat-mass.
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| I've not researched this - only read reports on the MSM -
| that installing an electric heat pump in the UK is
| thousands of pounds.
|
| If that's true then it's completely unrealistic for heat
| pumps to become mainstream anytime soon.
|
| We need to find alternative sources of natural gas, fast.
| Fracking may be a good choice at this point in time.
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| The UK government is just about to subsidize it by
| thousands of pounds:
|
| "Households in England and Wales to be offered new
| PS5,000 Government grant from April 2022 to help replace
| gas boilers with heat pumps."
|
| Which is a long term win, as they won't need to import as
| much fossil fuels, and it helps meet climate targets. Any
| impact on Putin is merely a bonus.
| sealeck wrote:
| And what are the odds this will be done before next winter?
| yywwbbn wrote:
| What are the odds that enough nuclear plants for this
| will be opened before next winter. Maybe if 0% of
| imported gas was used for electricity generation non
| Russian sources would be sufficient for heating (just
| guessing)
| danhor wrote:
| No. Russia supplies around 47% of imported gas, around
| 41% of total gas. Shutting down only electricity power
| plants reduces gas usage by 12%. Not using it for
| electricity reduces it ~21% (going to be hard, because of
| combined electricity & heat plants). (see
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30480589, all
| numbers for EU)
| renewiltord wrote:
| With the gas you save from not needing to use it to run your
| fridge and other appliances.
| speed_spread wrote:
| Easy:
|
| - Raise tsunami or hire incredibly incompetent operators to
| create nuclear reactor incident
|
| - Wait for reactor containment vessel to crack open
|
| - Collect hydrogen produced from hydrolysis and send it down
| the gas pipes
| Aldo_MX wrote:
| I think the sarcasm was unnecessary
| dane-pgp wrote:
| Out of interest, how many nuclear power plants were turned off
| in Europe (net of replacements) since Russia invaded Ukraine?
|
| For context[0], in 2013 (the year before Russia seized Crimea),
| Germany generated about 100 TWh of electricity from nuclear
| energy, and last year it was about 70 TWh. In that time,
| renewables have nearly doubled, from about 150 TWh to 240 TWh.
|
| Of course, annualised figures don't account for the fact that
| there is less solar potential (and more heating demand) in the
| winter, but if the cost of importing non-Russian gas is cheaper
| than the cost of replacing ageing nuclear power stations or
| extending their design life, then the only concern is how much
| you are slowing down the race to net zero.
|
| [0]
| https://www.cleanenergywire.org/sites/default/files/styles/g...
| pmontra wrote:
| As a data point, Italy turned off all its 4 (four) nuclear
| power plants following to a referendum in the late 80s, after
| Chernobyl.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > 4 (four)
|
| I mostly see this type of writing in formal settings like
| contracts, or in cheques I think it's also done (but I've
| never seen a cheque so not sure). Now I have a chance to
| ask! Why do you write the same number twice? I always
| assumed it was to make reading easier with large numbers
| (not having to count groups of zeroes) or prevent writing
| errors (in formal contracts), but this is not a large
| number and HN has an edit system.
| jimbobimbo wrote:
| Not OP, but I'd write it like that for rhetorical effect.
| It becomes even more dramatic if written as "4 (four!)".
| throwawayboise wrote:
| The point is why not be more energy independent with domestic
| nuclear rather than increasing dependence on gas from Russia
| (or anyone else)?
| yywwbbn wrote:
| There is no not Russian gas. Germany hasn't got the capacity
| to import enough liquified gas using ships. It's going to
| take years to build enough terminals and it's unlikely to
| ever be cheaper than buying Russian gas (I don't think it's
| in Russia's interest to hike their prices too much (longterm)
| since that would make it easier to replace them).
| ramphastidae wrote:
| > In 2019, almost two thirds of the extra-EU's crude oil
| imports came from Russia (27 %), Iraq (9 %), Nigeria and
| Saudi Arabia (both 8 %) and Kazakhstan and Norway (both 7
| %). A similar analysis shows that almost three quarters of
| the EU's imports of natural gas came from Russia (41 %),
| Norway (16 %), Algeria (8 %) and Qatar (5 %), while over
| three quarters of solid fuel (mostly coal) imports
| originated from Russia (47 %), the United States (18 %) and
| Australia (14 %).
|
| https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/infographs/energy/bloc-
| 2...
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| Excellent, looks like we can stop importing coal from
| them as well, a double win.
| chha wrote:
| Not true. Norway currently supplies around 25% of the EUs
| gas supply, with quite a lot going through a terminal in
| Germany.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Norway supplies gas to Germany by pipeline, see the map
| [1].
|
| Germany doesn't have an LNG import terminal:
|
| "The current large-scale LNG receiving countries in
| Europe are Belgium (one terminal), France (four
| terminals), Greece (one terminal), Italy (three
| terminals), Lithuania (one terminal), Malta (one
| terminal), the Netherlands (one terminal), Poland (one
| terminal), Portugal (one terminal), Spain (seven
| terminals - six operational), Turkey (four terminals) and
| the UK (three terminals). Collectively, their overall LNG
| capacity is 237 billion cubic metres (of gas) (bcm),
| which is sufficient to cover approximately 40% of
| Europe's gas demand. Russia also has an LNG
| regasification terminal which is supplied entirely by
| Russian gas." [2]
|
| [1] https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/production-and-
| exports/the-...
|
| [2] https://www.natlawreview.com/article/lng-
| europe-2021-current...
| [deleted]
| et-al wrote:
| Since the OP fixed their post to include units, 3oC seems like a
| lot depending on where one's starting off.
|
| E.g. we keep our house at ~15oC. So 12oC / 54oF would be really
| pushing it.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Surely you realize this was posed to people who actually heat
| their homes? :)
| nicoburns wrote:
| Agree if you keep your house at 15C, but some people keep their
| houses as warm as 24C!
| GordonS wrote:
| Wow, don't you find 15C a bit cold?
| [deleted]
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| I live in the south of France (in an apartment) and use no
| heating or air conditioning all year long (as well as no hot
| water, no fridge/freezer), no need for me, it saves money, and
| pretty good for the planet
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| How do you live without a fridge?
|
| Where do you put all your cheese? :)
| halfdan wrote:
| Get it fresh from the market, consume immediately?
| MandieD wrote:
| The French seem to have a somewhat different view of cheese
| than we (Americans) do - it's a living thing, and why would
| you put a living thing in the fridge?
|
| Related: eggs are stored and sold at room temperature in
| Germany. The first time I saw that kind of display, I thought
| some grocery manager had lost their mind. No, perfectly
| normal, and safe enough. Watch the refrigerate by dates on
| the carton.
| genewitch wrote:
| In the US eggs are washed prior to being packaged for sale,
| so they must be refrigerated. Elsewhere (and in the US with
| yard eggs/local eggs) i guess you wash before use? I wash
| yard eggs because they were on the ground.
| Foobar8568 wrote:
| Usually the warmest regions in France still get minus
| temperature during winter, I call bullshit on this.
| dane-pgp wrote:
| To complete the economic picture, it would also be helpful to
| know how much gas Europe imports from Russia every year, and how
| much more expensive it would be to buy that same amount of gas
| from other suppliers.
|
| For example, if other sources of gas are twice as expensive, then
| Europe might want to import half as much from alternative
| suppliers as it does from Russia currently. If, on the other
| hand, other sources are only 10% more expensive, then reducing
| consumption by about 10% would produce an economically neutral
| result. (The only difference would be that people would have X
| amount less thermal energy, and would be Y degrees colder on
| average as a result).
| Sebb767 wrote:
| There's also the problem of logistics. We have one (technically
| two) full pipelines for gas to Russia; even if we want to
| switch and buy all our gas elsewhere, it will be really hard to
| actually get it here.
| Symbiote wrote:
| We have more than that, 12 according to Wikipedia: https://en
| .wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_...
| hommelix wrote:
| There are LNG terminals in Italy, France, Belgium,
| Netherlands and LNG import have increased to balanced the
| natural gas supplied from Russia. The article below shows
| that at the beginning of 2022 the European gas import from
| Russia were 39 % down against beginning of 2021.
|
| https://graphics.reuters.com/UKRAINE-CRISIS/GAS/gdpzynlxovw/
| klankschap wrote:
| you can save a lot of gas by wearing proper clothing. e.g. don't
| dress summer style in the winter... without loss of comfort it is
| possible to live in below 16degC
| cjdell wrote:
| Get an electrically heated jacket / blanket. Use 20W of power
| (per person) instead of >2000W of power heating the whole house.
| Two order of magnitude reduction in heating costs and you can
| quit gas entirely.
|
| To be honest I think this is the only way people in the UK are
| going to survive this year with energy costs literally doubling.
| Half the population can barely afford energy as it is.
| [deleted]
| CodeGlitch wrote:
| This actually great advice. There's always been the idea that
| we should heat people, not places. With improvements to battery
| technology I'm going to have to investigate heated clothing.
| Any recommendations?
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(page generated 2022-02-26 23:01 UTC)