[HN Gopher] Psychiatry and politicians: the 'hubris syndrome' (2...
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Psychiatry and politicians: the 'hubris syndrome' (2018)
Author : jka
Score : 59 points
Date : 2022-02-26 08:43 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cambridge.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cambridge.org)
| known wrote:
| T-A wrote:
| The mention of physical health reminded me of this story, which
| briefly flared up a couple of years ago:
|
| https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/6/kremlin-spokesman-d...
|
| Even common painkillers can have bad effects on mental health:
|
| https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20180206/do-otc-pai...
| brnaftr361 wrote:
| What is the first step in assuming a power role? I think in terms
| of leadership you've got to somehow address the span of
| authority. Even having a few people under limited authority is a
| pretty substantial undertaking. But having counts in the tens of
| thousands and having considerable power? I don't think there is a
| way to reconcile that without detachment of one sort or another.
| I know if I were in that sort of position, nothing would get done
| lest some injury to even a single individual be precipitated,
| thus making me morally culpable in their hurt.
|
| It's funny, but most of the senior staff ripe for promotion that
| I've had the pleasures of interacting with were _always_
| disinterested in moving "up" to a leadership position. I think
| most people have an intuitive sense of the _real
| responsibilities_ that one has to engage with. So the idea that
| these people have some underlying pathology I don 't think is too
| far from the mark. I've also considered the concept of pathogenic
| careers, and the assumption of particular frameworks of
| justification that need erected to assume certain roles. For
| instance a surgeon takes life and death into their hands every
| day, how they reconcile the high-stakes, the successes and the
| failures, as well as the known- and unknown in the performance of
| their duties may contribute to a conditioned pathology. I suspect
| CEOs and politicians are no different. Of course this is all
| speculative.
| tgv wrote:
| This
|
| > The first example of Kennedy's lack of political skill was the
| failed attempt to destabilise Fidel Castro in Cuba.
|
| is presented without any evidence. The 'syndrome' itself is based
| on highly biased, out of context judgement of third party
| observations. Perhaps they should look up the classical concept
| "projection."
| wuschel wrote:
| Interesting read, especially now that long term deficient
| political activities show their symptoms in the form of Brexit,
| Ukraine, etc.
|
| Basically, look out for these clinical features of the hubris
| syndrome when it comes to people in positions of leadership and
| power:
|
| 1/ sees the world as a place for self-glorification through the
| use of power
|
| 2/ has a tendency to take action primarily to enhance personal
| image
|
| 3/ shows disproportionate concern for image and presentation
|
| 4/ exhibits messianic zeal and exaltation in speech
|
| 5/ conflates self with nation or organisation
|
| 6/ uses the royal 'we' in conversations
|
| 7/ shows excessive self-confidence
|
| 8/ manifestly has contempt for others
|
| 9/ shows accountability only to a higher court (history or God)
|
| 10/ displays the unshakable belief that he will be vindicated in
| that court
|
| 11/ loses contact with reality
|
| 12/ resorts to restlessness and impulsive actions
|
| 13/ allows moral rectitude to obviate consideration of
| practicality, cost or outcome, and
|
| 14/ displays incompetence with disregard for the nuts and bolts
| of policy-making.
|
| Don't vote for them. Remove them from power.
| refurb wrote:
| A number of these seem to nicely summarize a number of social
| media influencers.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| Sounds like most US politicians. Especially Republicans
| refurb wrote:
| "Yes we can"
|
| Pretty sure that's the royal "we"
| dane-pgp wrote:
| There's a difference between wanting people in the country
| to work together for a shared goal, and literally referring
| to yourself with the pronoun "we".
|
| > "All Mike Pence has to do is send it back to the states
| to recertify, and we become president."
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com/judge-rules-trump-can-be-
| sue...
| bilbo0s wrote:
| It's pretty much all politicians. Not only American
| politicians.
| antattack wrote:
| It seems to me that government needs more checks and balances
| so people can recall their candidates if they misrepresented
| themselves or their intentions.
| bilbo0s wrote:
| We can recall our leaders. (At least in the US we can.)
|
| Of course, you have to get enough people to _agree_ with you
| that the leader should be recalled. You can 't recall him/her
| because _you_ want to recall him /her. You can only recall a
| leader if _we_ want to recall him /her.
| johnsimer wrote:
| Can anyone explain what's wrong with using the royal "we" in
| conversations?
| daniel-cussen wrote:
| Wework for example. Adam Neumann was always about "we".
|
| So what it means at a basic level is speaking on behalf of a
| group that is united against the opposing "I", basically a
| team or gang versus an individual.
| imranhou wrote:
| I think he is talking about him/her referring to his/her self
| (singular), using "we".
| matthewmorgan wrote:
| Complete drivel to compare the invasion of Ukraine to brexit
| dane-pgp wrote:
| Do you not see the consistent psychology behind:
|
| * Make America Great Again - we've been cheated by the
| globalists
|
| * Make Britain Great Again - we've been cheated by the EU
|
| * Make Russia Great Again - we've been cheated by the West
|
| * Make Germany Great Again - we've been cheated by the Jews
|
| ?
| refurb wrote:
| I dont see the connection between self-determination and
| invading another sovereign country?
| wuschel wrote:
| If the politician makes a decision in his interest but to
| the detriment of his people, one could very well make
| they connection. A simple example is distraction from
| critical domestic problems the political party/politician
| is not able,ready or willing to solve by focusing on
| international politics.
| dane-pgp wrote:
| You're absolutely right that there is an enormous
| difference in the policies implemented by the various
| governments, I'm just saying that the policies were
| partially driven by a common psychology.
| bobthechef wrote:
| Pathologizing your political opponents is a two way
| street[0]. Your opponent might be insane, yes, but it can
| also be all too easily deployed to dismiss your political
| opponents and a lost opportunity to learn something, if
| not in the substance of what they're claiming, then at
| least about the causes. Even assuming that the various
| conspiracy theories peddled by both the Left and the
| Right are bogus (and they are), the fact remains that
| their exists widespread, politically useful grievance
| that makes them attractive to many people. If you just
| say "oh, they're all just mentally ill", you haven't
| learned anything, even if the grievance is simply a
| manifestation of envy and ressentiment. Even if they are
| all mentally ill, you haven't learned _why_ they 're all
| insane. Maybe you don't care, and that's fine, but
| someone has to care because unlike the occasional
| neighborhood eccentric, these things are political
| gunpowder. So first we debate, and only later do we
| embark on something like psychoanalysis.
|
| W.r.t. Putin, I think that flippantly accusing him of
| mental illness is lazy and shows a lack of political
| imagination. That's only a conclusion you reach after
| you've exhausted all other options. Historically,
| Americans have been notoriously bad at understanding
| Russian political motives and the Russian political mind.
| If you contextualize what's happening in the geopolitical
| context, it's unclear, at least to me, that what Putin is
| doing is through-and-through insane. All evil is insane
| in the final analysis, but in the immediate sense, there
| may be a method to the madness. If you don't know the
| aim, and you don't know the constraints, you can't really
| understand the means. I'm not interested in cocktail
| party conjecturing or the pretense of knowledge.
|
| [0] https://americanmind.org/salvo/woke-ideology-is-a-
| psychologi...
| dane-pgp wrote:
| For what it's worth, I generally agree with what you're
| saying here (and I vouched for your comment, because I
| thought it was an insightful contribution to the
| discussion).
|
| I should clarify, though, that the "psychology" I am
| talking about applies more to the supporters of these
| political movements than to the politicians who lead
| them. It's completely possible for an intelligent
| manipulator to spout some narrative that appeals to the
| public's psychology, without them believing it
| themselves.
|
| Your point still stands, though, that it's not enough to
| simply say "the leader is a liar, and their supporters
| are mad", because that reductionist framing is more
| likely to shut down any attempts at further understanding
| than to open the door to learning that there might be
| legitimate grievances that are leading to this "madness".
|
| As for Putin, I think he is dangerously sane, but that's
| not to say that a psychoanalysis wouldn't reveal a
| helpful understanding of his motivations and weaknesses.
| For example, it seems that he spent his early life
| believing in (and working for) the greatness of his
| country which was destined to conquer the world (as if it
| were a game of chess played out across a world map), only
| to watch helplessly as that was all ripped away from him
| by the West. That could be psychologically devastating
| and create a trauma that has stayed with him for his
| whole life. I could well imagine that from his
| perspective, if he doesn't take back control of Ukraine,
| his whole life has been for nothing.
| krona wrote:
| You would have to contextualise a slogan like _Make America
| Great Again_ to give it a negative connotation; on its face
| it is objectively normatively positive.
|
| The Brexit slogan was _Take back control_. Again,
| normatively positive.
|
| Same for _Black Lives Matter_.
|
| The psychology behind successful political slogans is that
| people are generally in favour of positive things.
| dane-pgp wrote:
| > The psychology behind successful political slogans is
| that people are generally in favour of positive things.
|
| Are there any examples of negative political slogans?
| "Don't vote for us, we're losers"?
|
| I don't think it's very informative to point out that
| these slogans are positive. What's more informative is
| that the messaging came with an idea of an insidious
| enemy, and of betrayal, and a desire to return to a
| former, previously great, and deserved status.
|
| For what it's worth, I don't think "Black Lives Matter"
| had those same connotations.
| ramphastidae wrote:
| Mussolini's party slogan was "Believe, obey, fight." I
| don't know if that's negative but it doesn't feel
| positive.
| ben_w wrote:
| > For what it's worth, I don't think "Black Lives Matter"
| had those same connotations.
|
| Really? The impression I had[0] was that this slogan was
| a cry for equality in the eyes of a police force which
| acted as though black lives did not matter -- the
| mistreatment being very much insidious, very much a
| betrayal of "protect and serve", and while I wouldn't
| call the BLM slogan itself it a "return to a former,
| previously great" status, it is clearly a desire to have
| a _deserved_ status (of having one's life matter).
|
| [0] caveat: I'm caucasian British, the closest I got to
| this was having an American partner a few years ago
| krapp wrote:
| Your interpretation is correct. Unfortunately, as with
| everything else to do with Black and progressive activism
| in the US, the right wing has been very successful at bad
| faith redefinition of terms.
| nopenopenopeno wrote:
| The purpose of the slogan was to preempt class war with
| race war. History has and will continue to confirm this.
| tiahura wrote:
| When Mario Cuomo ran against Ed Koch his slogan was "Vote
| for Cuomo, not the homo."
| hprotagonist wrote:
| _The Orders are composed of persons all hung up on authority,
| security and control; i.e., they are blinded by the Aneristic
| Illusion. They do not know that they belong to Orders of
| Discordia. But we know.
|
| - The Military Order of THE KNIGHTS OF THE FIVE SIDED TEMPLE.
| This is for all the soldiers and bureaucrats of the world.
|
| - The Political Order of THE PARTY FOR WAR ON EVIL. This is
| reserved for lawmakers, censors, and like ilk.
|
| - The Academic Order of THE HEMLOCK FELLOWSHIP. They commonly
| inhabit schools and universities, and dominate many of them.
|
| - The Social Order of THE CITIZENS COMMITTEE FOR CONCERNED
| CITIZENS. This is mostly a grass-roots version of the more
| professional military, political, academic and sacred Orders.
|
| - The Sacred Order of THE DEFAMATION LEAGUE. Not much is known
| about the D.L., but they are very ancient and quite possibly
| were founded by Greyface himself. It is known that they now
| have absolute domination over all organized churches in the
| world. It is also believed that they have been costuming
| cabbages and passing them off as human beings.
|
| A person belonging to one or more Order is just as likely to
| carry a flag of the counter-establishment as the flag of the
| establishment-- just as long as it is a flag.
|
| Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton._
| rtkaratekid wrote:
| If, like me, you had no idea what this was...
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Discordia
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| > The hubris syndrome has great appeal to psychiatrists, partly
| because it is a new concept.
|
| New? That's hard to believe that its taken this long to construct
| such a syndrome.
|
| In any case, while hubris might be an issue for some (minority?),
| being generally disconnected from those they serve seems to be
| the current state of leadership.
|
| Look at Congress, all or nearly all are millionaires. CEOs and
| other C Level executives are paid record amounts (as a ratio of
| what staff compensation). Those in charge of The Fed? When was
| the last time any of them rubbed elbows with the victims of their
| system?
|
| Hubris is a problem, and evidently a new one. But ignorance is
| more common and far more damaging.
| steve76 wrote:
| someweirdperson wrote:
| I don't have any personal experience with politicians.
|
| But it all sounds very familiar when reading it as "Psychiatry
| and Architects (or any other technical persons voted into power
| by management)".
| jackcosgrove wrote:
| I have some experience. During college I had an internship with
| a county planning agency. I was staffing the welcome table
| where they hand out nametags at a conference the agency was
| sponsoring.
|
| A smartly dressed woman walked up to me and said nothing. I
| welcomed her and asked what her name was so I could give her a
| nametag. She gave me a weird look, then stepped back and
| conferred with what looked like a retinue. I heard her say,
| "Who is that there?" (referring to me) "What is going on here?"
|
| My supervisor rushed up and saved the day, handing her the
| appropriate nametag and explaining that I was an intern. Turns
| out she was some elected county official. Of course I should
| have known her name.
|
| This was a county, the little leagues.
| throwawy5777 wrote:
| tiahura wrote:
| Yes and no. County politics and politicians can be a little
| unintuitive. Because there's almost no reporting of things
| that get done by county government - and there's so little
| accountability, compared to city state and fed, an
| unbelievable amount of corruption and patronage occurs.
| Therefore personal connections are more important and ego
| plays a disproportionate role (where the baseline is already
| overinflated egos).
| throwawy5777 wrote:
| Interesting that two of the cases discussed mention a
| prescription of amphetamines, which they describe as harmful. Did
| these differ substantially to the doses we prescribe for ADHD
| nowadays?
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| FWIW, I have ADD and sometimes take (prescribed) Adderall, i.e.
| amphetamine salts.
|
| They absolutely have an unwelcome impact on my mood and
| thoughts. I judge the tradeoff to be worthwhile, but it's a
| close call.
| throwawy5777 wrote:
| Me too, and also I think the trade-off worthwhile, which is
| why I ask this question. I hope in the future people will
| have found a better treatment for ADHD. Maybe they'll look
| back at the medications currently used in a similar way as
| this article does.
| briHass wrote:
| I would wager the amphetamine doses given in those 2 examples
| were quite different than what is typically prescribed by
| (responsible) Drs treating ADHD today.
|
| In Eden's case, it mentions that he was actually using
| Dexamyl[1], which is actually a amphetamine mixed with a
| barbituate. Though the dose isn't given, I'd imagine it was 'as
| needed' and largely uncontrolled. Uppers + downers tends to
| lead to bad results.
|
| In JFK's case, he was treated by Max Jacobson a.k.a. 'Dr
| Feelgood'[2,3], and it wasn't just amphetamines; he made up
| injections of all kinds of vitamins, steroids, and speed.
| Again, it was 'as needed' and likely overdosed. Dr Jacobson
| would ultimately lose his medical license.
|
| For ADHD, the maximum daily limit for amphetamine salts is 60mg
| in adults, and the recommended dose for ADHD is no more than
| 40mg/day. At those levels, there isn't a ton of evidence of
| deleterious effects, certainly not psychosis, as long as sleep
| isn't overly impacted. A carefully controlled max dose of
| 40-60mg a day is a far cry from the days of 'poppin' bennies'
| ad libitum.
|
| As a side note, one has to wonder if the last, and almost
| certainly the current, US Presidents were/are prescribed
| stimulants. President Trump speaks for himself, but even
| President Biden seems to range widely in his level of energy
| and lucidity. With a job so important, where appearances
| matter, and with a team of doctors that can give you whatever
| they want, I think it would be naive to think they don't write
| Adderall scripts.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexamyl [2]
| https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/john-f-kennedy-ma...
| [3] https://www.historynet.com/jack-kennedy-dr-feelgood/
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| I don't have an answer to your question, but I will point out
| that the effects of stimulants on someone with adhd are
| different from the effects they have on a neurotypical person.
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