[HN Gopher] Cryptonomicon: Among the Bitcoin maximalists
___________________________________________________________________
Cryptonomicon: Among the Bitcoin maximalists
Author : softwarebeware
Score : 68 points
Date : 2022-02-25 15:57 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (harpers.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (harpers.org)
| neonate wrote:
| http://web.archive.org/web/20220225160516/https://harpers.or...
|
| https://archive.is/QD1uO
| seibelj wrote:
| > _In The Bitcoin Standard, Ammous blamed the Fed for the modern
| "breakdown of the family," and for "perhaps most damagingly, the
| depletion of the soil of its nutrients, leading to ever-lower
| levels of nutrients in food." He compared the art of the
| Renaissance, Classical, and Romantic periods, all financed
| properly with sound money, to the decadent culture of the twenty-
| first century, with its "animalistic noises'' and "immediate
| sensory pleasures.'' "It was hard money that financed Bach's
| Brandenburg Concertos," he wrote, "while easy money financed
| Miley Cyrus's twerks." It was, moreover, "no coincidence that the
| era of central bank-controlled money was inaugurated with the
| first world war in human history." Here was a theory of
| everything, a moral case for Bitcoin that encompassed art and war
| and even the nutrients in our soil. (Ammous disdains what he
| calls "fiat food," claiming his diet consists of "approximately
| 95% red meat, 5% other meats, and approximately zero plant
| matter.")_
|
| I un-ironically believe all of this, but when put in this way, it
| sounds crazy. But I believe it.
|
| Is it not curious that true fiat currency is a relatively recent
| phenomena, perhaps 100 years old in reality and 50 years
| officially, yet amazing discoveries, inventions, buildings,
| factories, art, etc. were all made before fiat currency? Fiat
| isn't a requirement nor an inevitability - it is a human
| invention, and one I personally see as a mistake.
| uoaei wrote:
| Ah, so Bitcoin is just Goldbug-ism for the Age of Information.
| Melio wrote:
| It's not just 100 years old.
|
| It's over 1000 years old and it evolved from nothing to what we
| have.
|
| It's very weird that you ignore history like this.
|
| You should read up on Spain, silver, gold, china and tons of
| other history regarding tender.
|
| What we have with fiat is your very well working monolith fine
| tuned over centuries while everyone who wants to make money of
| of you tells you why their Nanoservice with security holes and
| no features is so much better.
| Hendrikto wrote:
| Gold and silver coins are not fiat though.
| majormajor wrote:
| How much actual gold has to be in your gold coin before it
| crosses from "gold" to "fiat"? You had "debased" coinage in
| Roman times, if not earlier.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| You know what amazing discovery was made after fiat currency?
| Bitcoin. I think the human race still has something going for
| it.
| fullshark wrote:
| The conversion of US society from an agricultural one to an
| industrial one to an information/services one probably the
| larger trend driving results here, especially if the quality of
| produce/soil is something you're thinking about. The role fiat
| currency played in that is debatable I'll grant.
|
| RE: terrible art, the rise of that is the rise of art for lower
| classes in terms of more of it being produced and seen, which
| is a good thing I'd argue, as well as comparing art made in a
| 10 year period say with all of the best art western
| civilization has produced in the past 500 years.
| frankbreetz wrote:
| The 50-100 years the has been an explosion of new discoveries.
| The model T was still being produced 100 years ago. To claim
| anyone has a worse life then 100 years(or whenever fiat was
| started) ago is a bit of a stretch.
| perardi wrote:
| There are just...I can't even start with the sheer inanity of
| that quote.
|
| First off, the First World War happened _on the gold standard_.
| Most currencies, notably the British Pound, didn't become
| decoupled from gold until _after_ WW1.
|
| And those World Wars were enabled by _technology_ , not _fiat
| currency_. Mass production of weaponry, rapid advancements in
| said weaponry, trains, fertilizer to grow more food to supply
| those front line...technology was far more of a driver than
| fractional reserve banking.
|
| And decadence? Decadence! The Sun King would like to have a
| word with you about "decadence".
| youarethebest wrote:
| jrm4 wrote:
| Anyone who is very serious about strong lines between "fancy"
| art and "low-class" art can be safely dismissed as an idiot. It
| takes only the _tiniest_ bit of historical knowledge to
| understand that these things frequently, and frequently-rapidly
| evolve, usually from "low-class" to "fancy." See e.g. theatre,
| jazz, etc.
| jandrese wrote:
| "Wow, when you say it out loud it sounds crazy", followed by
| zero introspection.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| If our crops don't have any nutrients, how exactly would our
| animal products have nutrients in them? I doubt he is eating
| wild caught animals for a majority of his nutrition -
| presumably just eating factory raised pigs and cows which are
| fed the same crops that he believes has no nutrients.
|
| I'll also bet that Ammous ends up with diverticulitis within 10
| years if his description of his diet is correct.
| youarethebest wrote:
| Grass-fed animals unaffected.
|
| Easy to get if you actually look and are willing to support
| regenerative farms in order to obtain the best nutrition
| possible.
|
| I suggest researching into how animals turn grass into
| nutrients and the difference between crops for human
| consumption and grass.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| Does the guy in OPs statement only eat grass-fed animals?
| Isn't the source of the grass important? If it is grown in
| a wild field, maybe it will have all its natural nutrients.
| But if it is grown as a crop, or on a field under repeated
| heavy grazing, isn't that just as bad as what is happening
| to the human crops?
|
| Also, if the guy is going out of his way to only eat the
| best, most expensive beef, because corn-fed beef is
| actually bad, why doesn't he do the same thing for fruits
| and vegetables? You can get "wild grown" vegetables just
| like you can get wild grazed beef. It just costs more.
| shralpmeister wrote:
| Is it just me or does that read like a far-right, Christian,
| white supremacist screed?
| burnoutgal wrote:
| Yup, classic fascist rhetoric. It's not surprising they point
| to a woman being independent and expressing her sexuality as
| the example of "degenerate culture". The "other" (people of
| colour, women, queers) are producing art that represents our
| own experiences, which is a threat to their desired white
| hetero-patriarchal order.
|
| Never mind that Mozart wrote a ton of filthy shit. People
| have been obsessed with sex forever
| seibelj wrote:
| I think the comment about the music is ridiculous, but the
| broader point about free money causing the gradual
| degradation of food, housing, standard of living, etc. is
| not without merit.
| UncleMeat wrote:
| Degradation of food? Housing? Do you know what people ate
| when Bach was alive? Or in what conditions most people
| lived?
| cdiddy2 wrote:
| Well we are approaching half of americans having a
| chronic disease and a large part of that is from what we
| eat along with lack of exercise. it does seem like we
| have a degradation of the nutrients in our food supply as
| well.
|
| https://www.fightchronicdisease.org/sites/default/files/d
| ocs...
|
| https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/vanishi
| ng-...
| UncleMeat wrote:
| There has never been a time in human history where a
| smaller percentage of the population faced starvation.
| Actual wars were fought over access to spices I can buy
| for three dollars at the supermarket.
|
| Small changes in per-unit micronutrient quantities are
| not the cause of modern obesity. If you do want to make
| some claim that worldwide nutrition was better at some
| point in the past, that point was _definitely_ not when
| Bach was alive.
| majormajor wrote:
| "Times were better when we didn't have enough to eat,
| curse this surplus and our lack of self control!"
|
| Strange to see such paternalism about people making
| unhealthy dietary choices from a crowd I mostly associate
| with libertarian thinking.
| cdiddy2 wrote:
| I don't think libertarians believe that government
| subsidy leading to monocropping is inline with their way
| of thinking.
| cuteboy19 wrote:
| It doesn't matter. Facts don't matter if you have spent
| significant amount of your life savings into magic
| internet money. Any news is contructed into 'this is good
| for bitcoin'. Even history itself is malleable,
| everything can be blamed on fiat (even though Bitcoin
| itself is fiat).
| 8note wrote:
| The factors leading to the dust bowl in the 1930s
| happened under the gold standard.
|
| The government is prioritizing the wrong things, which is
| leading to today's degradation of food, but lack of
| government intervention also results in the degradation
| of food.
|
| Housing quality and standard of living are at their best
| ever - if free money is causing that, thats not a
| terrible outcome
| batrachos wrote:
| > free money causing the gradual degradation of food,
| housing, standard of living, etc. is not without merit.
|
| First, you have to establish that degradation has taken
| place. Considering that for most of civilizational
| history, the vast majority of people were wearing rags
| and eating grain porridge without spice or much salt and
| living in hovels, that doesn't seem obvious to me.
| Second, even if you do establish that, you have to
| specifically tie it to "fiat" currency and not some other
| factor. Those both seem like a tall order.
| AniseAbyss wrote:
| My grandfather was born in a shack and he had to share
| clothes with his brother. The past wasn't a fairytale.
| davidgerard wrote:
| This is ridiculously, hilariously false. If you don't
| think so, please detail the precise degradations, with
| numbers.
| uoaei wrote:
| History does not have origin in French parlors, mon ami.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| no it must be far-left, Shinto, yellow supremacist. Wait!
| look in your closet, there is one now! quick! get them and
| post about it
| invalidOrTaken wrote:
| To those of us who are far-right, Christian, and have noticed
| the lack of distinction that seems to be applied between say,
| David Duke, and Chris Rufo, this is not the takedown-by-
| association you seem to think it is.
| shralpmeister wrote:
| It was not intended as a take down. Thanks for clarifying.
|
| It's becoming clearer that Bitcoin is the "currency" of the
| far right. For those of us who consider this ideology
| abhorrent and counter to the ideals of a free and
| democratic society it's good to have that out on the table
| and on full display.
| rvz wrote:
| > It's becoming clearer that Bitcoin is the "currency" of
| the far right.
|
| Does this extend to all cryptocurrencies or is it just
| Bitcoin?
|
| A Ukrainian organization called 'Come back Alive' who
| have just been de-platformed by Patreon [0] are now
| turning to Bitcoin donations [1]. Does that make them far
| right?
|
| Or maybe the starving Afghans who are under sanctions due
| to the Taliban are trying to survive by using Bitcoin and
| other cryptocurrencies managed and accepted by NGOs
| helping them survive [2]. Perhaps they are all far-right
| too?
|
| [0] https://blog.patreon.com/on-the-removal-of-come-back-
| alive
|
| [1] https://decrypt.co/93810/patreon-suspends-ukrainian-
| ngo-come...
|
| [2] https://theintercept.com/2022/01/19/crypto-
| afghanistan-sanct...
| rvz wrote:
| Maybe if you have been chasing or watching imaginary nazis in
| computer games, movies and on the 'news' in the last four
| years perhaps?
|
| If a claim is without any evidence and has no substance, it
| can be easily dismissed and ignored.
|
| Not every silly, baseless conspiracy theory has an immediate
| association with the 'far-right' or with 'Christian, white
| supremacists' and especially not this one.
|
| As long as they have zero evidence and they are unable to
| substantiate it, who cares? We already know bitcoin has
| failed being a peer-to-peer electronic cash system and it is
| still useless as a currency.
| skulk wrote:
| This quote:
|
| > He compared the art of the Renaissance, Classical, and
| Romantic periods, all financed properly with sound money,
| to the decadent culture of the twenty-first century, with
| its "animalistic noises'' and "immediate sensory
| pleasures.''
|
| Does seem a lot like this:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_art
| nmhancoc wrote:
| I think the phenomenon you're observing is that the quote
| observes a true correlation, coincidence, or relation, but
| "sounds crazy" because the implication it draws is _very_
| strong relative to what can probably be evidenced.
|
| In other words, it _is_ the case that Renaissance works were
| financed with harder money than works today. That's a
| historical matter of fact. It _is_ the case that families are
| breaking down or that nutrient levels in produce (per unit
| size) have decreased. It's also the case that those events were
| coincident with a change of greater adoption of fiat currency
| vs hard currency (and I'd put it on a spectrum because of
| fractional reserve banking and other items which made the Gold
| standard dollars not _really_ redeemable in Gold and etc).
|
| With all that said, the "sounds crazy" comes in because it's
| totally unsubstantiated in the quote (and probably otherwise)
| that just because these things occurred together the change in
| the status of money is the primary driver behind the other
| changes.
|
| Edit: For example, if the change in money is the primary
| driver, then it is the case that the massive technology shifts
| we've seen aren't the primary driver. Nitrogen based
| fertilizers aren't the primary driver. Various civil rights
| movements aren't the primary driver. The presence of global
| travel, the formation of a global village, the new ability to
| communicate, none of these are the primary drivers.
|
| And the more you lean on fiat money being the explainer, the
| less you allow all these other things to contribute to the
| explanation. That case becomes harder and harder to support, I
| think.
| uoaei wrote:
| This is the classic conspiracy treadmill and subsequent dive:
|
| See correlations that are unsettling or suggestive;
|
| imagine causal forces which are fundamentally out of reach
| epistemologically, but explain the causation for the
| correlation which is apparent;
|
| institutionalize the theory into a worldview;
|
| attach your identity to it and obey in-group/out-group social
| maxims;
|
| find home in only the in-group because only they tolerate
| your assertions with no challenge;
|
| cement the worldview in your mind as a quasi-religious
| totalizing narrative because of the lack of challenges.
| MR4D wrote:
| This is interesting...
|
| The linked article is titled "Cryptonomicon", and written by
| _Will_ Stephenson, and a book with the same title was written by
| _Neal_ Stephenson.
|
| Yet, no mention of Neal or his book in the article. So I wonder
| where he got the word for his title?
| oriolid wrote:
| With all recent Metaverse stuff, it seems that Neal Stephenson
| is public domain now. So many things on the Internet are based
| on Snow Crash and Diamond Age that maybe it's time to move to
| different book now.
| danielvaughn wrote:
| Right? I went in thinking it was about the book because it's
| been on my to-read list for a while.
| SilasX wrote:
| Hah, yeah, I was going to say, if this went to court, it
| would feel like a slam dunk case of trademark infringement or
| IP of some kind, due to consumer[1] confusion.
|
| [1] term of art in this context, not what I'd prefer they
| use.
| wrycoder wrote:
| I don't believe you can copyright titles.
| webmaven wrote:
| _> The linked article is titled "Cryptonomicon", and written
| by Will Stephenson, and a book with the same title was written
| by Neal Stephenson._
|
| _> Yet, no mention of Neal or his book in the article. So I
| wonder where he got the word for his title?_
|
| Usually when I run across this sort of questionable title it
| turns out the editor was responsible, rather than the author.
| inasio wrote:
| Definitely felt like bait, the word Cryptonomicon does not even
| show up in the (long) article even once. I was waiting for the
| reveal that his dad was Neal (worried when he said his dad was
| into Ayn Rand...), or that he himself was Neal.
| tedunangst wrote:
| Probably the same place the other Stephenson got it. Crypto +
| /necro/nomicon = cryptonomicon.
| lupire wrote:
| no "necro" here. "nomicon" means "tome".
| gxqoz wrote:
| There was an FT long read recently that covered similar ground
| that I thought was a bit better. HN thread and archive link here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30213690
| Hendrikto wrote:
| > All I had wanted was a get-rich-quick scheme that actually
| worked
|
| And now you are disappointed. I get it. That does not discount
| the value of the underlying technology though.
| bitxbitxbitcoin wrote:
| An actual Bitcoin Maximalist conference is happening March 3-6 in
| Las Vegas. It is called the Unconfiscatable Bitcoin "not
| Blockchain" Conference.[0]
|
| In contrast, BTC Miami was where Ethereum was first announced.
|
| [0] https://unconfiscatable.com/
| paulpauper wrote:
| Bitcoin is unconfiscatable , but the catch is you must spend it
| in space
| vlorch wrote:
| i'll be there
| [deleted]
| Animats wrote:
| That's a great read.
|
| What's striking, in his description of the conference, is the
| total lack of any connection to real world activity. None of
| these people seem to be trying to get enough Bitcoin together to
| build a steel mill or a wafer fab or a smartphone factory or,
| indeed, any kind of startup that _does_ something. Bitcoin is
| expected to somehow generate wealth without actually doing
| anything that generates revenue. All it can really do is move
| money from one group to another.
|
| The world changed this week. Things just got real. Russia is
| taking over a big chunk of eastern Europe by force. That's what
| real authoritarianism looks like. Not mask mandates. Over the
| next few months, the tolerance for bullshit, especially in
| politics, will go way down.
| CodeMage wrote:
| > _Over the next few months, the tolerance for bullshit,
| especially in politics, will go way down._
|
| Maybe I'm too cynical, but I think it's way more likely that
| the next few months will allow those politicians who relied on
| that bullshit in order to push their agenda, to instead push
| that agenda quietly and with little or no opposition.
|
| For example, you don't see a lot of outrage on Twitter over
| Greg Abbott's persecution of trans children anymore, because
| Twitter is abuzz with what's going on in Ukraine. This is a
| thing that is just as "real" as Ukraine, but the collective
| attention gets focused on one thing at a time, which is why
| "bullshit in politics" is usually needed.
| ypeterholmes wrote:
| Counterpoint- this was yet another tired critique of Bitcoin.
| How many of these smug, superficial boomer oriented rants must
| we endure?
|
| It's easy to attend conferences and mock people. Meanwhile BTC
| is playing a meaningful role in the realpolitik you mention,
| and quickly integrating into the entire banking system. You say
| BTC has no connection to the real world, as if the Canadian
| truckers didn't just get their accounts frozen, and cutting
| Russia off from SWIFT wasn't being discussed. How do you
| maintain that view in the face of such events?
| AniseAbyss wrote:
| How many rants from young people do we have to endure? You're
| not going to start the revolution you will become a boring
| boomer like all the generations before you.
|
| The crux is that you are cashing out your bitcoin for PSEUR$
| to buy things in a store.
| waffle_maniac wrote:
| "Bitcoin Donations To Ukrainian Army Surpass $4 Million"
|
| https://archive.is/9YTVe
| [deleted]
| kragen wrote:
| As it turns out, moving money from one group to another+ is
| pretty useful in modern society. It's really all that _money_
| is good for, after all.
|
| Some of my comments from the last week and a half about what
| Bitcoin is good for:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30469595 when your
| country's central bank suspends electronic cash transfers,
| suspends the foreign exchange market, limits cash withdrawals,
| and prohibits the issuance of foreign currency from retail bank
| accounts; or when you want to fund a militia in a war zone
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30435990 when your bank
| account gets frozen because your family member supported a
| political protest in Canada
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30446703 in case the
| government of the current global hegemon imposes economic
| sanctions against your company or your country; right now
| that's the US, but probably ten years from now it will be the
| People's Republic of China
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30408611 as an alternative
| to a bank when "whistleblowers" send the bank history of 30,000
| "legitimate clients who had done nothing wrong" to journalists
| so they can comb through them looking for something to pin on
| the accountholders
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30375671 when five
| Canadian banks mysteriously have an hours-long outage at the
| same time
|
| I also wrote a bit last year about my observations of how
| Bitcoin gets used in practice today, outside the world of
| hoity-toity speculative finance the Harpers article is about:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448744
|
| ______
|
| + Or preventing it from being moved without its owner's
| consent, which is the value proposition both of safe deposit
| boxes and the Bitcoin guarantee of a limited money supply.
| r00fus wrote:
| Money is the flow of utility (1st derivative). Flow of money
| is 2nd derivative.
|
| The uses you indicate are probably 10% of the use case, the
| remaining 90% is money laundering.
| reset-password wrote:
| Why do you think that it is a 10-90 split like that? I
| think it's 90-10 the other way. I have no proof but it
| sounds like you don't either.
| wrycoder wrote:
| But, isn't standard Bitcoin completely traceable, once you
| move funds out of your wallet to fiat? Can't they track you
| down retroactively after you make that one transaction?
| kragen wrote:
| Tracking you down retroactively is very different from
| freezing your bank account so you miss your rent payment.
| Also, generally, no, fiat-currency cash transactions are
| not completely traceable, and in practice there doesn't
| seem to be a Bitcoin-oriented equivalent of
| https://cdn.occrp.org/projects/suisse-secrets-interactive/,
| at any rate not yet.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| I find you utterly un-compelling.
|
| And I say that as someone who has literally spent hundreds of
| bitcoin at one of the ONLY points in bitcoin's history when
| it was primarily used as a genuine medium of exchange (silk
| road).
|
| Simple example - show me a method of handling reconciliation
| of fraud/contract dispute for bitcoin that doesn't fall back
| on the legal systems of those government systems you're so
| happy to rail against. (hint - there is NONE).
|
| You know what those governments absolutely won't do? Incur
| costs upon themselves to mediate exchanges in a foreign
| currency. They will either ban it (china) or add back all
| those things you seem to think bitcoin will solve (funds
| freezing, required intermediaries, identity & reporting,
| sanctions) that make those costs predictable and acceptable
| (us).
| mardifoufs wrote:
| What do you mean only point in it's history? I agree that
| bitcoin is mostly good for drugs but it's still being used
| for that as we speak. Some markets are starting to only
| take Monero, sure, but you can still get around with just
| BTC. Silk road wasn't the last dn market or even the best,
| not even close.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| The primary use is now speculation - full stop.
| ephbit wrote:
| The distinction between store of value and speculation is
| rather fuzzy IMO.
|
| Is putting money into gold for savings (because an actual
| savings bank account currently not only loses money in
| real but even in nominal terms) speculation as well?
| invaliduser wrote:
| Speculation: "investment in stocks, property, etc. in the
| hope of gain but with the risk of loss." Buying bitcoins
| seems to match the definition.
|
| You can buy gold as an inflationary hedge, but I don't
| think people would do that with bitcoin.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| But can you do it without going to jail when sanctions or
| similar are in place against you? Technically, you can, but
| you face the same consequences if you were able to get a wire
| or SEPA transaction through. That's the point. The tech
| doesn't change the policy or the law. You still go to jail or
| your country gets shelled. Miners get chased out of
| countries.
|
| Russia is reportedly exploring crypto for transfers if they
| get knocked off of SWIFT. That does not bode well for crypto
| when it becomes a weapon of a an enemy combatant state.
|
| (obligatory xkcd about getting beaten with a wrench for your
| private key here)
| kragen wrote:
| Generally when "[economic] sanctions or similar are in
| place against you" it's because the people who imposed the
| sanctions are physically unable to jail you. Or beat you
| with a wrench.
|
| The tech doesn't change the policy or the law, but it does
| change their consequences in the real world. Fortunately it
| is not yet the case that the US shells every country whose
| citizens do business with entities it imposes sanctions on,
| although the US does shell a lot of countries, and it can
| be challenging to identify even which country a Bitcoin
| transaction originates from.
|
| What's your source for "Russia is exploring crypto for
| transfers if they get knocked off of SWIFT"? I assume you
| mean cryptocurrencies of some kind, because obviously
| SWIFT, SPFS, and CIPS all use cryptography, so that would
| be too obvious to mention. Right now I think Bitcoin is the
| only cryptocurrency with enough trading volume to handle
| Russia's foreign exchange needs; I don't think that's
| likely to happen in the next two years, though, if it ever
| happens at all.
|
| If it did happen, though, it would put an end to the
| concerns that Bitcoin could collapse at any moment like a
| Ponzi scheme.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| > What's your source for "Russia is exploring crypto for
| transfers if they get knocked off of SWIFT"? I assume you
| mean cryptocurrencies of some kind, because obviously
| SWIFT, SPFS, and CIPS all use cryptography, so that would
| be too obvious to mention. Right now I think Bitcoin is
| the only cryptocurrency with enough trading volume to
| handle Russia's foreign exchange needs.
|
| EDIT: If you're looking for a press release from the
| Kremlin, no, I'm unlikely to be able to get something
| official from Vlad, only public news sources.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/23/business/russia-
| sanctions...
|
| https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-24/russia
| -bi...
|
| https://cointelegraph.com/news/crypto-could-bypass-
| president...
| kragen wrote:
| None of these substantiate the claim that "Russia is
| exploring crypto for transfers"; they just point out, as
| I did above, that _people outside Russia_ say Russians
| _could hypothetically_ use cryptocurrencies for transfers
| despite US sanctions. None of them even propose that the
| Russian government use cryptocurrencies for its own
| foreign trade, and none of them claim to have any Russian
| sources at all, whether officials or leaks or civilians.
| The Cointelegraph article claims that Maduro proposed
| doing this in the past (for Venezuela) and that Iranians
| raising money for flood relief have actually done so.
| DennisP wrote:
| Russia doesn't need to resort to Bitcoin, when they can
| easily use their own SWIFT alternative or China's. China
| is conveniently friendly with Russia these days, is
| rapidly expanding CIPS, and would likely welcome the
| chance to expand it even more.
|
| The existence of these alternatives is one reason Russia
| probably won't be banned from SWIFT in the first place.
|
| Archive from The Economist: https://archive.is/CHiiI
| trinovantes wrote:
| I doubt Bitcoin will help you when an authoritarian
| government targets you specifically
|
| https://xkcd.com/538/
| once_inc wrote:
| There are actually quite a few companies doing things with
| bitcoin that generate revenue. Bitcoin isn't supposed to make
| you money; it's supposed to _be_ money. Dollars on their own
| don 't generate revenue, nor is gold locked in a safe. Bitcoin
| has qualities that make it better than fiat and better than
| gold, at the cost of an established history.
|
| Perhaps the author just spoke to the wrong people, didn't get
| the fundamentals, or didn't ask fundamental questions.
| igorkraw wrote:
| Show me one company that "does things with bitcoin" that
|
| 1. does things which aren't already solved for cheaper using
| standard finance (for example, splitwise makes splitting
| bills easier, there are disposable credit card solutions,
| within crypto multi-sig accounts for the masses could be one
| idea) 2. is not just enabling _other_ people to do something
| with crypto or building out the "doing something with
| crypto" capabilities (i.e., the product is used to do what
| real finance does - facilitate and simplify services and
| manufacturing of goods. Not trading, not infrastructure for
| trading, not derivatives, not loans...) 3. Is profitable or
| generates organic revenue (i.e., has customers actually using
| their product and paying them for it)
|
| Alternatively, show me one company or freelancer denominating
| their prices in bitcoin, without tying it to the dollar
| indirectly.
| ephbit wrote:
| > 3. Is profitable or generates organic revenue (i.e., has
| customers actually using their product and paying them for
| it)
|
| Does an e-mail provider accepting payment in bitcoin count?
| majormajor wrote:
| "Bitcoin is supposed to be money" isn't the only pro-crypto
| position out there. A lot of its current value is driven by
| people holding and purchasing it from a perspective including
| things like "this will be the new backing infrastructure for
| every transaction in the world" not just "this is digital
| gold."
| wmf wrote:
| Isn't the point of Bitcoin precisely that it naturally
| becomes more and more valuable? If people want money that
| doesn't make money they can use stablecoins.
| majormajor wrote:
| The fixed number of bitcoins doesn't help you if people
| decide they want ether instead. Or if either are fine. Or
| something else in the future. That risk is very alive and
| well.
|
| (I'd argue that the spread of multiple cryptocurrencies has
| had a major inflationary effect overall in the world
| economy in the last five years. Lot of people with suddenly
| fat bank accounts out of nothing.)
| kragen wrote:
| I certainly hope not! That's what the article's author was
| hoping for, but presumably Bitcoin will reach a long-term
| stable price level at some point. Maybe it already has, or
| did two years ago when it was at US$8000, or maybe at some
| point it will rapidly fall to $0 as investors switch to
| Ether or Grin or ZCash or whatever is popular ten years
| from now. Its volatility unfortunately appeals to get-rich-
| quick speculators, but hopefully at some point they'll get
| burned enough to quit and leave it to serious people.
| Assuming it doesn't evaporate completely!
|
| The problem with "stablecoins" is that they reintroduce the
| single point of failure that sunk Digicash and e-gold,
| which Bitcoin was specifically designed to eliminate.
| Holding Tether is a bet that neither Bitfinex nor the
| Federal Reserve will decide to make their money machine go
| brrr. I don't know how you feel about the Federal Reserve
| but I wouldn't trust Bitfinex with my lunch money, much
| less my savings or my country's foreign reserves.
| ephbit wrote:
| Agree.
|
| Many people critize bitcoin for its current volatility
| and entirely neglect that it can totally change in the
| long-term.
|
| It appears reasonable to me to expect the system dynamic
| along a pathway towards (possibly) wide adoption to go
| through various changes. Yes there are probably phases of
| hype and there's the influence of block reward halvings
| but there can also be effects in the long-term that
| stabilize: the more widespread and integrated in various
| parts of finance and the economy and actual day to day
| transactions or people's savings bitcoin were to become
| the more it would dampen volatility.
|
| Why that? Because unlike purely speculative financial
| transactions, day to day transactions are very much
| restricted and influenced by and thus coupled to rather
| constant human needs, so a lot less volatile than the
| former.
|
| Now don't get me wrong. I know bitcoin can't directly be
| used to replace cash because of settlement time and
| transaction fees. But that's why protocols on top like
| Lightning exist.
| lawn wrote:
| Bitcoin _can 't_ function well as money as it's too clogged
| up. That's why the narrative switched from money + adoption
| to digital gold + number goes up.
| astoor wrote:
| I haven't seen any profitable cryptocurrency companies which
| do anything genuinely useful for non-crypto people in the
| real world - all the profitable ones are inward-looking, i.e.
| engaged in "building out the ecosystem" (or "extending the
| pyramid scheme" depending on your perspective), e.g. the
| cryptocurrency exchanges. That's a big difference between the
| internet and cryptocurrency - the internet can be said to
| have started benefitting ordinary people within a few years,
| but there's no sign of cryptocurrency ever doing anything
| useful for the proverbial "man on the Clapham omnibus" after
| 13 years. In that sense cryptocurrency is more like the gold
| rush - some people find gold, most people make money selling
| the shovels, but the vast majority of the world are so far
| removed from it all that it doesn't impact them in any way
| whatsoever (except perhaps for the negative effect it has on
| their environment).
| uoaei wrote:
| > Spoke to the wrong people.
|
| So either the conference didn't have the right people, or
| this journalist is shit at their job. Which implication do
| you claim?
| Animats wrote:
| Well, let's see what was pitched at that conference. There's
| a list.[1]
|
| - 24 Exchange Bermuda Ltd. - cryptocurrency exchange
|
| - 5 Day Forecast - can't identify, name too widely used
|
| - Bitex - cryptocurrency exchange in UAE.
|
| - Bitmatrix - "High Risk Merchant Account Solution"
|
| - Citizens of Bitcoin - "Global Mobility Assets for Bitcoin
| Hodlers"
|
| - D2X Group - "The pan-European digital derivatives
| exchange."
|
| - DIBA Global Inc - "The future of Digital Art building on
| #Bitcoin."
|
| - Liquid Ventures - hydroelectric powered Bitcoin mining
|
| - Moon - probably "Moon Bitcoin", a Bitcoin faucet app
|
| - Satoshi's Games - "integrate blockchain-based play-to-earn
| economies into ... games"
|
| - Sazmining - crypto mining
|
| - Shock Network, Inc. - ambiguious, but possibly "Shock
| Wallet", a hosted crypto wallet
|
| So, not one of the companies pitched at the conference
| described in the article operates outside the crypto bubble.
|
| [1] https://b.tc/conference/pitch-day
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