[HN Gopher] OK for Apple to Call Sagan 'Butt-Head Astronomer' (1...
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OK for Apple to Call Sagan 'Butt-Head Astronomer' (1994)
Author : Lammy
Score : 51 points
Date : 2022-02-23 20:46 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (web.archive.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (web.archive.org)
| drewcoo wrote:
| That's ok. I have an Apple Genius in my garage.
|
| https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage
| donatj wrote:
| > In response, the project manager changed the computer's code-
| name to "Butt-Head Astronomer." Sagan filed suit in federal court
| for libel [and] the use of likenesses.
|
| I feel like the latter legally counteracts the former. For it to
| be his likeness, has has to admit that he is infact a "Butt-Head
| Astronomer". If you openly admit you are something, it's not
| libel?
|
| See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_penis_rule
| not2b wrote:
| Apple had the legal right, sure, but they should have just
| respected Sagan's desire for them not to use his name without
| being dicks about it.
|
| They used his name without permission for a codename, he asked
| them to stop, so the changed the name to "Butt-Head Astronomer",
| in a way that everyone involved with the project knew it was a
| reference to him. I pictured a bunch of people with the emotional
| maturity of 15-year-olds when I saw that.
| dvt wrote:
| > Apple had the legal right, sure, but they should have just
| respected Sagan's desire for them not to use his name without
| being dicks about it.
|
| To me, it sounds like Carl Sagan is being a dick. It was an
| internal name, so who cares. It's kind of an honor. I don't
| really understand the cringe-inducing sainthood that the online
| tech/nerd community bestowed upon Carl Sagan over the past 30
| years. I don't even think he did that much original research.
| Lammy wrote:
| > They used his name without permission for a codename, he
| asked them to stop
|
| There's some additional context that makes me more sympathetic
| to Sagan here too. The "Carl Sagan"/"BHA" machine (Power
| Macintosh 7100) was introduced alongside two other machines
| whose codenames reference fraudulent/unproven science:
|
| - The 6100 is "Piltdown Man"
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_6100
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man
|
| - The 8100 is "Cold Fusion"
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Macintosh_8100
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion
| caycep wrote:
| https://www.engadget.com/2014-02-26-when-carl-sagan-sued-app...
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > There can be no question that the use of the figurative term
| "Butt-Head" negates the impression that Defendant was seriously
| implying an assertion of fact. It strains reason to conclude
| that Defendant was attempting to criticize Plaintiff's
| reputation or competency as an astronomer. One does not
| seriously attack the expertise of a scientist using the
| undefined phrase "butt-head."
|
| Oh, to have been a fly on the wall when the judge said/wrote
| that...
| hownottowrite wrote:
| Most of what people love about Carl Sagan is really just Ann
| Druyan showing through.
| [deleted]
| jl2718 wrote:
| I had an office-mate who maintained the telescopes at CalTech,
| and this was also his personal opinion about Sagan.
| echelon wrote:
| Care to elaborate? I've always held Sagan in utmost esteem and
| I'm curious others' takes are.
|
| The last time I read his Wikipedia entry it mentioned that
| contemporaneous scientists felt he wasn't contributing much to
| the field despite his fame, but I think public outreach is
| immensely valuable in shaping the next generation of
| discoverers and policy makers.
| kelnos wrote:
| Unfortunately many prominent/famous people present an
| extremely curated and sanitized version of their personality
| to the public, and often treat people poorly in private.
| Shame to learn that seems to have been the case for someone
| like Sagan.
| awb wrote:
| Another perspective is that we idolize many
| prominent/famous people and when they have a normal range
| of emotions (fear, anger, disgust, resentment, frustration,
| etc.), or just having a bad day, we judge them for it.
| ars wrote:
| I've never publicly said this before, but I had this
| experience with Donald Knuth - I emailed asking him for
| copyright permission for something on Wikipedia, and he
| gave it (public domain), but he was extremely nasty about
| it because I had to reply asking for clarification and
| apparently receiving an email was extremely disruptive to
| him.
|
| I try not to talk to public figures, most of them are only
| nice when in the context of what they are trying to sell.
| The rare exceptions deserve the praise they get.
|
| I don't even know why I'm writing this......... it was
| years ago.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Knuth's distaste for email is well known: https://www-cs-
| faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html
|
| That doesn't excuse being nasty to somebody, though.
| pmcollins wrote:
| i saw sagan speak at berkeley in the mid nineties. he was
| shockingly and brazenly rude to the person running the a/v
| setup, through his microphone, so the entire overflowing
| audience could hear every last detail. it was way over the
| top. appreciate all he's done for science and outreach but it
| seems he had an intense personality.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| The reasonably famous people I have interacted with had
| public and private personas that were very distinct from each
| other. The public persona is what most people but the private
| persona can be very different. Being famous is basically an
| acting job. And to become famous you usually have to be very
| driven and can't always be nice.
| AndrewGreen wrote:
| I met him once. Right after Shoemaker-Levy 9 impacted Jupiter
| there was an event at the Mountain View Holiday Inn where he
| talked about it. I'd arrived a bit early (as an attendee),
| and while waiting for things to kick off I snuck out for a
| cigarette. Halfway through it, there was Carl (f*cking) Sagan
| walking across the parking lot towards me! I dropped/stubbed
| my cig and told him how much I was inspired by 'Cosmos' and
| especially by the Library of Alexandria episode/ He said yes,
| it was really good and that was mainly down to his wife's
| work. And then he signed my cheap paperback copy of 'Cosmos'
| and headed in to the seminar. I'm sure he could be a dick.
| But that certainly wasn't all he was.
| localhost wrote:
| A link to the JudyRecord of the judgement [1] yields a better
| quote:
|
| Because a reasonable factfinder could not conclude that "Butt-
| Head Astronomer" implied that Plaintiff was a less than able
| astronomer or that Plaintiff was legally wrong in asking
| Defendant to cease using Plaintiff's name, the only remaining
| assertion is the bare statement that Plaintiff is a "Butt-Head
| Astronomer." Clearly this phrase cannot rest on a core of
| objective evidence. Plaintiff does not suggest any other
| assertions of objective fact that could be reasonably implied
| from the phrase.
|
| Based on an analysis of the factors identified in Unelko, the
| Court has no reason to conclude that the statement made by
| Defendant implies an assertion of objective fact. Milkovich, 497
| U.S. at 21, 110 S. Ct. at 2707 . Therefore, the statement is
| protected under the First Amendment and cannot form the basis of
| a claim for libel.
|
| [1] https://www.judyrecords.com/record/zbvxoh5rdf1a
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| _Therefore, the statement is protected under the First
| Amendment and cannot form the basis of a claim for libel._
|
| That's kind of odd. What does the First Amendment have to do
| with libel law? Doesn't 1A constrain only the government from
| prohibiting or forcing speech?
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Doesn't 1A constrain only the government from prohibiting
| or forcing speech?
|
| They can't punish it either.
| unixfg wrote:
| Who enforces libel law?
| kelnos wrote:
| Libel laws, themselves, are a restriction on free speech, no?
| If I sue someone for libel and win, it's not _me_ that 's
| restricting the other party's freedom of speech, it's the
| government. I merely asked them to do it.
| awb wrote:
| > However, Apple lost its motions for a more definite statement
| of Sagan's Lanham Act claim. Apple had argued that Sagan's
| complaint had admitted that his name was only used internally
| at Apple, and could not, therefore, have been "in commerce" as
| required by the Act. Judge Baird noted that Sagan's complaint
| only asserted that Apple's attorneys had stated that the name
| was only used internally. Finally, Judge Baird denied Apple's
| motion to strike Sagan's invasion of privacy count as redundant
| in light of the right of publicity claim. She noted that the
| former asserted an additional request for punitive damages, and
| that the other redundant elements did not prejudice the
| defendant in any way.
|
| INAL so hard for me to parse this, but does this mean that some
| elements of the lawsuit were allowed to progress?
| spunker540 wrote:
| Pretty rare for me to see a case with Apple where I feel it's the
| other party being overly litigious about trivial naming!
| kelnos wrote:
| That was my thought as well! I clicked on this expecting to
| read a tale of some sort of corporate overreach.
|
| As much as I respect Carl Sagan for his contributions to
| science (and promoting public knowledge of scientific
| concepts), he does sound like a butt-head.
| gwd wrote:
| I think Sagan was totally right to ask Apple to clarify that
| he had not endorsed their product.
|
| I think Apple engineers were being butt-heads when they got
| annoyed at this and renamed the project "BHA".
|
| But that should have been as far as Sagan went; suing for
| libel because someone calls you a "butt-head" is really
| foolish.
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(page generated 2022-02-23 23:01 UTC)