[HN Gopher] Can you warm yourself with your mind?
___________________________________________________________________
Can you warm yourself with your mind?
Author : jelliclesfarm
Score : 214 points
Date : 2022-02-20 10:44 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.newyorker.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.newyorker.com)
| amriksohata wrote:
| Tummo is nothing but another type of Yoga that originated from
| India before Tibet, from Hindu sages
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tummo
|
| Tummo is also a tantric practice for inner heat, developed around
| the concept of the female deity.[1][3][4] It is found in the Six
| Dharmas of Naropa, Lamdre, Kalachakra. and Anuyoga teachings of
| Vajrayana. The purpose of tummo is to gain control over body
| processes during the completion stage of 'highest yoga tantra'
| (Anuttarayoga Tantra) or Anuyoga.
| koreanguy wrote:
| tartoran wrote:
| How about the reverse, can one cool themselves with only the sole
| power of their mind?
| alfanick wrote:
| Anecdotal data [on sample of one, me]: while I don't think I can
| warm myself with my mind, I clearly can ignore cold.
|
| I feel it's cold, but it's not uncomfortable or painful for me.
| I'm doing this daily since hmm 10 or more years - walking in
| shorts, t-shirt, almost all year long (something longer if it's
| cold, cold meaning less than -15C or less than -3C and extremely
| windy). Similar story with rain - just get wet, it's fine.
| Hiking, running in one layer instead of 3 layers as most folks
| would do... It helps me with overheating which I tend to a lot. I
| have also a simple recipe if I'm actually feeling cold - just do
| whatever you do faster (your muscles generate a lot of heat as a
| by-product), no need for extra layers. Lately I also monitor my
| core body temperature when doing any kind of activities -
| definitely not getting cold inside even though I'm "underdressed"
| by popular opinion. (Note I'm also not a risk taker, so in
| extreme conditions I always have some backup layers with me, in
| case "do whatever you do faster" method could not be implemented
| anymore).
|
| I wouldn't give anyone any advice out of this though, I'm not a
| medical professional.
| gerbilly wrote:
| Winter surfing taught me to tolerate the cold.
|
| That movie endless summer has it backwards. Surfing almost
| everywhere is better in the winter. It's just that winter in
| Hawaii is pretty warm.
|
| Where I live we surf in the great lakes in late winter,
| starting about now actually till end of April.
|
| While you're in the water with a wetsuit, it's not too bad.
| Water can't get too far below 0oC but the air temperatures are
| often way below freezing, and the windchill can be brutal,
| because lake surfing is dependent on wind.
|
| Getting out of my 5mm wet-suit in a parking lot in February
| taught me what it really means to be cold.
|
| Since then, conditions I would have thought of as cold are much
| more tolerable.
|
| Now if I have to take out the trash in the winter and there's
| fresh clean snow on the ground, instead of wrestling with
| winter boots I just go barefoot.
|
| The secret to not feeling cold is that when you're cold, just
| let yourself be cold through and through. Don't fight it.
| yepguy wrote:
| > The secret to not feeling cold is that when you're cold,
| just let yourself be cold through and through. Don't fight
| it.
|
| This is exactly what I do too, and I've talked to people who
| approach the cold in the same way. However, I've also found
| it completely impossible to teach, and a statement like the
| above just makes people angry unless they already understand
| what it feels like to do it. (Especially if you try to tell
| them while you're already out in the cold.)
| lkxijlewlf wrote:
| How much of this is just acclimation?
|
| Anecdote time. In college in FL, I met a fella from one of the
| northern M states. First winter down here he was in shorts and
| t-shirts and the rest of us had jackets and coats. Time goes on
| and his first summer down here I see him and he looks a hot
| mess, like someone dumped a bucket of water on him (now, in FL
| there's humidity so you're sweat doesn't work. This was ...
| worse. He was sweating like crazy) and I asked, "you okay?" He
| replied, it's the fucking heat, man! Time goes on and it's
| winter again. Now he's in pants and a jacket or coat (depending
| on temp) and I'm like, you cold? He's all, fuck yeah! I told
| him the Florida summer will do that to you. Makes the cold
| intolerable.
| asdfman123 wrote:
| The human body can get used to a lot if you work up to it.
|
| Every fall and winter I make a point of letting myself get a
| little cold, and as a result I'm much more comfortable through
| the winter. It's a nice superpower to have.
|
| We live in a society obsessed with comfort but it's good to
| make yourself uncomfortable from time to time.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| I have the same thing; I can focus and just ignore the cold or
| the heat. I guess practicing focus and lucid dreaming (both
| require mental discipline I think) where good for something.
| alfanick wrote:
| With heat unfortunately I cannot do as much as with cold - I
| need moreless two weeks in the heat to acclimate correctly
| and then my performance is somewhere close to non-hot-weather
| performance (I'm a runner). But unfortunately at some moment
| this also stops working when I'm doing some very high effort
| - active cooling is required (aka splash yourself with water,
| ice etc). In some conditions (especially hot+humid) human
| built-in active cooling mechanism also doesn't work well -
| sweating is awesome, but sweat no longer evaporates
| effectively in humid conditions. I also say it's easier in
| cold - you could always put more clothes on you if need them,
| but in the heat? There is only as much clothes as you can
| take off.
|
| I'd agree it's somehow mental discipline - I can also ignore
| pain, it's there, but well I don't have to act on it, it does
| not have to have any reaction. It used to be a cool party
| trick back when I was a teenager... Again, not a medical
| professional, if you experience pain, it's body trying to
| tell you something is wrong, most likely you should listen to
| it.
| jbay808 wrote:
| Are you me?
|
| I started doing this in elementary school, and ever since,
| I've been pretty much unbothered by the cold. Even if it
| drops well below freezing I'm comfortable in shorts and a
| T-shirt. I don't even get goosebumps.
|
| Unless I'm very hungry at the same time. Then the cold can
| start to get to me.
| [deleted]
| engjs wrote:
| Anecdotal data and experimental data of sample of 5.
|
| Yes it is possible to ignore cold.
|
| Not the wim method but something else.
|
| Also possible to teach another person to ignore cold within a
| few minutes.
|
| Did it on a bus and they were able to do it almost immediately.
|
| Was a fun experiment.
| 2Gkashmiri wrote:
| any youtube videos you would suggest?
| crismiquelg wrote:
| This sounds like a dream to me. Feel like I can do the
| opposite: try to ignore heat while cold... I just start
| shaking.
| btdmaster wrote:
| Reminds me of imaginary exercise:
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1597701/
| borroka wrote:
| From the fascinating book "Autohypnosis and Autogenic Training"
| by Dr. Klaus Thomas (not available in English, I translated it)
|
| Temperature adaptation
|
| It has long been known, especially thanks to WEIZSACKER's
| experiments of over 100 years ago, that under hypnosis the
| feeling of well-being and skin reactions are determined not by
| the actual external temperature but by the subjective setting.
| Exercise under progressively more difficult conditions is not
| presupposed. Spectacular demonstrations are particularly
| dangerous in this field. If the hypnotist for "stage
| requirements" makes his subject face enormous temperature changes
| in the space of a few minutes (in one case I personally observed
| 60 degrees Celsius), profuse sweating with copious elimination of
| liquid is followed by a sensation of intense cold: a drastic
| procedure that, in addition to exposing to infection, almost
| necessarily involves more serious diseases, rheumatic for
| example. Instead, gradual habituation gives rise to almost
| absolute independence from external temperatures.
|
| For example, for over 20 years I have endured the hot-humid
| climate of the Earth's most torrid areas and extreme temperature
| changes without feeling ill or getting sick. I can safely say
| this having lived in the tropics for several months. Therefore, I
| will report how my gradual adaptation unfolded.
|
| Since 1945 I have eliminated my hat or cap in winter. If
| necessary (even while walking) I would repeat:
|
| "Ears, nose and skin of the head are and remain pleasantly warm."
|
| After two years, I was forced to cover my ears for a few minutes
| only infrequently, at times of extreme cold. Since 1946 gradual
| elimination of the coat with the formula:
|
| "The skin is pleasantly warm, the cold is strongly indifferent to
| me".
|
| Since 1948 the stimulating action of the cold air on the skin
| gives me pleasure; since 1949 I have not contracted a cold since
| a stay of no more than thirty minutes in the cold air, while a
| stay in a relaxed sitting position in a too cool working
| environment is still unpleasant for me. Since 1950 elimination of
| gloves, at first with the formula:
|
| "Hands stay pleasantly warm".
|
| After two years, adaptation to the temperature was established
| automatically, without the formula. In total, it took me seven
| years to achieve almost absolute independence from the outside
| temperature. For sensitive individuals, special complementary
| formulas are recommended, for example:
|
| "The air ride leaves me completely indifferent".
|
| In the humid heat of the tropics, the formula renders good
| services: "The skin stays dry and cool".
|
| When it is very hot, sweating, as a natural defense mechanism,
| should not be suppressed; therefore the formula is indicated:
|
| "Sweat leaves me completely indifferent".
|
| In a patient threatened by the danger of overheating (heat
| stroke) the self-induced deep sleep acted favorably. In 1960,
| during a car trip of many hours through the Sahara desert, with a
| temperature inside the car of more than 80 degrees, I was helped
| by the formulas:
|
| "I feel good, pleasantly calm and cool >> and "I sleep hard and
| deeply">.
|
| Typical phenomenon, during the whole trip extremely realistic
| iced drinks. On arrival, I was the only one (out of 20
| participants) who was free of ailments. After drinking twelve
| bottles of ice-cold lemonade, I was immediately able to work,
| while all the others had to go to bed. The most important general
| formulas would be:
|
| "The skin remains pleasantly cool"
|
| "Heat is strongly indifferent to me".
|
| The effects of autogenic training on temperature adaptation in
| people who have been practicing for years can be summarized as
| follows: Low or high temperatures are not bothersome; additional
| clothing or air conditioning systems, at least for time-limited
| temperature changes, are unnecessary; common colds or infections
| do not occur or become very rare (to the author, for 25 years).
| autohnacc wrote:
| Are you open to sharing your translation? I know people who
| would dearly love to get their hands on a copy.
| borroka wrote:
| I translated a few parts and a full translation has been on
| my mind for some time. It will take using modern tools
| (Google lens + DeepL + manual "adjustments" of the translated
| text) I'd say 20-30 hours for this book.
|
| Other book on AT I'd recommend not available in English are
| Gisela Eberlein's and the Handbook of Autogenic Training by
| Hoffmann.
| MSFT_Edging wrote:
| I've noticed that when I'm doing a very mentally intensive task,
| such as focusing all my energy on reading sheet music, converting
| that to notes, chords, positions, and finger style picking
| patterns, I warm up considerably. Since I don't keep up with it
| regularly, every return is very mentally exhausting and I'll end
| up sweating with no ambient temperature change.
|
| I have no doubt its possible to trick the mind into re-
| regulating.
| efitz wrote:
| Related, but not the same. I've suffered from migraines since
| puberty. In my teens, I received biofeedback training and it
| turns out I was pretty good at it.
|
| Biofeedback is a relaxation technique; training involves hooking
| you up to a device that measures galvanic potential in your skin
| and converts it to an audio tone. Stress and relaxation have
| opposite effects on a number of measurable body phenomena
| including skin resistance, skin (extremity) temperature, heart
| rate, and others.
|
| I've practiced biofeedback regularly since and can rapidly lower
| my heart rate and increase my skin temperature at will. I
| wouldn't depend on it to ward off frostbite but I usually don't
| need gloves and my wife gets jealous that my hands and feet are
| almost always warm.
| grimoald wrote:
| Regarding the Arctic ground squirrels:
|
| > the water inside the squirrels becomes a supercooled liquid.
|
| Does that mean that if you grab a squirrel and shake it, it
| freezes instantly?
| [deleted]
| mproud wrote:
| > G-tummo meditation, she went on, is not a state of relaxation
| but arousal.
|
| This actually makes total sense.
| 988747 wrote:
| Well, certainly you can FEEL warm - it takes just a little
| practice before you can relax enough for your blood vessels in
| your skin to expand. Nothing special about this, I've done that
| many times before, while waiting at the bus stop, for example.
| Problem is: in the longer term you will die from cold FASTER this
| way - you are basically just wasting your heat by dispersing it.
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| Information processing in the brain burns most of the energy we
| intake. Computation produces heat as a side product. Therefore
| you can warm yourself with your mind, simply by thinking more.
| ajuc wrote:
| Is it established that consciously thinking more uses more
| power? On a CPU with no frequency scaling nor power levels it
| doesn't matter if you do useful work or while(true) - it takes
| as much energy to do both.
| can16358p wrote:
| Don't know if directly related or something else but in cold
| I can think much more clearly, creative, and have "higher
| computational output". In heat my brain stops, I can't think
| clearly and all the ideas are "foggy".
|
| I always had this personal and funny analogy in my mind of
| CPU thermal throttling where brain works more slowly in heat
| to prevent generating more heat.
| csee wrote:
| It is established. People tasked with doing a difficult
| mental task burn a lot more calories. But I don't think it's
| known if it's the thinking per se, or the stress associated
| with it.
| anentropic wrote:
| https://www.science.org/content/article/scientist-busts-
| myth...
| gambiting wrote:
| We know this affects race car drivers especially - the
| mental efford of driving the car at high speeds gets their
| heads to dangerous temperatures. But yes, you are correct -
| it could be "just" the stress too.
| ben_w wrote:
| I remember reading (but can't find references) that watching
| soap operas burns less calories than watching paint dry
| because your mind wanders more when you have nothing to
| engage it, and separately that high-end chess players burned
| a lot of calories despite sitting almost motionless during
| their games.
|
| The urban legend of "you only use 10% of your brain" isn't
| true, but the thing it was based on was closer to the caveat
| "while relaxing".
| neaden wrote:
| The chess thing was based on a misconception. Someone
| measured chess players heart rate and saw that it was
| increased, then compared that pulse rate to athletes
| training and basically said they must be burning as many
| calories since they had the same heart rate. This study
| gives a much more reasonable estimate of calorie
| expenditure: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/23455
| 094_The_stress...
| ben_w wrote:
| Neat, thanks for the update :)
| 0_____0 wrote:
| 20% is a baseline figure for proportion of calories that go to
| the brain. If only you could warm yourself by running 3DMark!
| [deleted]
| alfiedotwtf wrote:
| is this actually true? i would have thought the Gluteus Maximus
| would burn the most by a factor compared to the brain?
| csee wrote:
| This is speculation as to whether it explains the effects
| described in the article.
| mettamage wrote:
| Disclaimer: I've met Wim and was one of his guinea pigs in this
| experiment [2]. The best proof I have for that is that I've
| claimed this for years on HN ;-) We trained for 4 days in Poland.
| The hardest challenge I did was climbing up a mountain in my
| shorts + shoes + socks for 2.5 hours at -7 degrees. I did not
| have frostbite in the end, none of us did. We did the Harlem
| Shake (that was a thing back then). I also asked a ton of
| questions to the researchers back then.
|
| From what I've read, g-tummo is very likely not the Wim Hof
| Method. I've never trained with a monk claiming to know g-tummo.
| The son of Wim Hof loudly told me "The Wim Hof Method is not
| Tummo!" (almost a direct quote from memory, probably
| paraphrased). So I'd argue that back in 2014 or whenever it was,
| they were of the opinion it was something else. I'd be willing to
| bet they've never met a g-tummo monk either :)
|
| A good medical YT vid on the WHM [1].
|
| From my experiential point of view: the WHM doesn't warm your
| body, you simply don't get cold, nor do you feel cold (you're too
| high on adrenaline to have any normal sense of temperature).
| Sometimes I did feel a warmth boost, but that's not the main
| "working thing" behind his method. I use it whenever I need an
| adrenaline boost, or don't want to feel cold.
|
| When is it handy or fun to get an adrenaline boost on purpose (my
| experience)?
|
| 1. When you have a headache (free painkiller when nothing is
| lying around)
|
| 2. When you're at a party (no drugs needed, the WHM is a drug in
| its own right)
|
| 3. When you're having sex (a lot of adrenaline kinda changes your
| personality a bit :) )
|
| 4. When you're cold
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6EPuUdIC1E
|
| [2] https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/111/20/7379.full.pdf
| samstave wrote:
| I grew up in lake tahoe, I am 47 years old.
|
| One of the things I learned very early in life in the winters
| of tahoe was how to consciously raise the temp of my feet/legs
| in the cold winter nights by just thinking about it.
|
| I am far less good at this as I have gotten older, but I am
| familiar with raising my body temp by thought alone.
|
| I've also meditated to instant healing before.
|
| I was ~18 at the time and I had done a crap load of sit-ups to
| the point I damaged my abdonminal muscles, to the point where I
| couldnt even stand up straight and was just hunched over.
|
| I went to meditate and breate, very similar to WHM...
|
| After some time meditating my body got the super tingly feeling
| one gets right before astral projecting, my body took in a
| swift breath, my back arched and all my abdominal muscles
| tingled and were instantly healed.
|
| I have yet to do this again though, and I have been meditating
| in earnest recently to attempt to do the same thing again.
| djtango wrote:
| Don't know why someone downvoted you without taking the time
| to question you further.
|
| What is astral projecting?
|
| I have heard anecdotes of self-healing before, it reconciles
| with my internal model that induced muscular relaxation +
| increased bloodflow via neuro-stimulation can facilitate
| healing and also reset any "knots" lingering around. Similar
| to how massaging, accupuncture and cupping can help recovery.
|
| Although many find this unbelievable perhaps because it is
| hard to measure/study and the knowledge to body control is
| locked behind unscientific martial arts and requires years of
| training. Seems like we are starting to tease out
| reproducible findings via things like Wim Hof and mass
| interest in yoga. I'm excited to see what we may discover
| about our own potential - just like how [1] debunked
| scientists' assumptions about pupil dilation
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28377916
| rantanplan wrote:
| > What is astral projecting?
|
| The illusion that your mind escapes your body and/or visits
| other planes of existence etc. It has been replicated
| successfully in lab conditions many times over and is
| proven to be just an illusion.
| goodpoint wrote:
| Illusion has a negative meaning.
|
| If anything call it https://www.sleepfoundation.org/how-
| sleep-works/hypnagogic-h... but not "illusion".
| dpark wrote:
| Does "hallucination" not have a negative meaning?
| ncmncm wrote:
| When it's a vision, it depends what you get to see. Often
| enough, what you see is not literally different, but its
| perceived meaning is different. Sometimes revelatorily
| different.
|
| "Hallucination" is a judgmental term; it may be
| appropriate when it is involuntary, or what you see is
| harmful. People with schizophrenia suffer hallucinations,
| and (in all cases I have known personally) suffer for it.
| Thus, "hallucinogen" is a judgmental term about a
| chemical, where people taking one for the beneficial
| effects call it an entheogen.
| pointer_pointer wrote:
| mtalantikite wrote:
| I'd also agree that Wim Hof breathing is not Tummo, although
| who knows if there are some similar biological processes that
| happen as a result of the two methods. My experience with the
| Wim Hof breathing is similar to yours though, it's a nice reset
| button and can make your body feel a lot better when you're in
| pain or feeling cloudy. It's funny that you mention using it
| for sex, because Tummo is often a preliminary for Karmamudra
| practice too.
|
| As for Tummo, generally there are a lot of preliminary
| practices you need to go through before being taught it, which
| can take the practitioner a lot of time and is probably why you
| don't see it around in lay communities in the west. For
| instance, the preliminary practice of ngondro can take people
| something like 6 months in full retreat to finish, or years if
| mixed in to daily life.
|
| The Yuthok Nyingthig lineage of Tibetan medicine practitioners
| does things on faster timelines though, in my experience. [1]
| [2] My acupuncturist is a former monk and teaches Tummo to
| small groups here in NYC from time to time, although he hasn't
| done it in a while and I didn't find out about him until after
| the last group of his had started. You'd still probably want to
| have had a daily meditation practice and some physical yoga
| asana practice before beginning I'd imagine -- just sitting in
| the 7-point posture of Vairochana that you see the monks from
| the article sitting in requires a pretty open body to get into
| and maintain. The first time I took a course in Tibetan Nejang
| I had difficulty with maintaining that arm and shoulder
| position, even after years of sitting every day in padmasana.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuthok_Nyingthig
|
| [2] https://purelandfarms.com/
| mettamage wrote:
| That looks interesting, I sometimes do a small Google search
| on Tummo. But I can't find much useful/reliable stuff. The
| knowledge seems to be really arcane.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Same, I searched from time to time as well and never really
| found much, until one day I was looking for a new
| acupuncturist and coincidentally this former monk's
| practice is a few blocks from my house. Wasn't even looking
| for a tummo teacher during that search! Hopefully some day
| I'll get to go through the training. Happy to send you his
| information as well, my email is in my profile.
| asimovfan wrote:
| it is an esoteric practice :) you have to learn it from a
| guru
| milesvp wrote:
| My understanding with adrenaline, is that it will open your
| capillaries to increase blood flow to your extremities. This
| may be why you didn't get frostbite. The flip side of this, is
| that it means your body is transferring internal temp to your
| extremities, which means that you will "die sooner" if you
| don't have a way to increase body temp at a faster rate. Now
| it's possible that adrenaline also increases your body's fat
| burn to allow for this need of higher metabolism. I don't know.
|
| My warning, is that this may be a similar problem to consuming
| alcohol in the cold. You feel warmer, and even have more
| calories to burn, but according to myth busters, it tends to be
| a net loss due to radiative effects. And likely is
| exponentially worse the colder it gets.
| runnerup wrote:
| I agree that its intuitive that to prevent frostbite, it
| would be appropriate for the body to increase blood flow
| through extremities and (assuming core temperature has a
| narrow functional band) increase heat loss / caloric output
| in the process. And that this would result in loss of energy
| stores much faster -- good if you have a large caloric
| surplus available most days, bad if you are experience
| extended starvation in the wilderness.
|
| Though as with everything relating to health, I'd like to see
| some data/information to confirm my naive bias/opinion.
| treeman79 wrote:
| Wonder if adrenal fatigue would be a problem. Sort of like
| spending extended time in flight or fight mode will wreck
| your body.
| amelius wrote:
| Isn't this exactly the sort of question addressed by the
| research?
| cf141q5325 wrote:
| Do you know if you burned more calories? Also thanks for the
| report
| ncmncm wrote:
| Necessarily.
| [deleted]
| awb wrote:
| > The hardest challenge I did was climbing up a mountain in my
| shorts + shoes + socks for 2.5 hours at -7 degrees. I did not
| have frostbite in the end, none of us did.
|
| What's your best guess as to why no one got frostbite?
|
| > Risk increases as air temperature falls below 5 F (minus 15
| C), even with low wind speeds. In wind chill of minus 16.6 F
| (minus 27 C), frostbite can occur on exposed skin in less than
| 30 minutes.
|
| https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/frostbite/sym...
|
| It sounds like you were at very high risk of exposure,
| especially with even a slight wind on exposed skin.
| beaconstudios wrote:
| not OP, but I did WHM too - it heats you up. Not sure about
| the specifics, whether it's increasing blood flow to limbs or
| what, but it definitely makes cold exposure more tolerable,
| and not just in a psychosomatic sense - I didn't shiver at
| all after hanging around in a bath full of ice for a good
| minute or so.
| mettamage wrote:
| Yep, I didn't shiver either. I did hug a couple of skiing
| people around 90 minutes in though for fun :D The looks on
| their faces were fun.
|
| The effects of WHM and cold exposure have been
| scientifically documented. I think the YouTube video I
| linked to also says a thing or two about it.
|
| But yea, we were with 12 people that day, none of us got
| it. The group before us (a month before), also 12 people,
| none of them got it. All of us were males between 18 and
| 25, I think... Can't fully recall, the paper I linked to
| states it more clearly (though it may mention only 18 of us
| since 6 of us were trained for the case when people would
| drop out but none of us did).
| beaconstudios wrote:
| I went and did the Wim Hof thing at a stadium in London - it's
| great fun and if you can ignore the somewhat culty environment,
| you'll enjoy it for sure if you're interested in these kinds of
| things (meditation, new agey things).
|
| Anyway, prelude out of the way - are you sure it's adrenaline
| that WHM triggers? When we did it, it was essentially
| CO2-purging breathing and triggered an endorphin high, like a
| mild MDMDA effect. Either way, it definitely made ice-bath
| dunking more tolerable (part of the experience is a stadium
| full of people all going outside in flipflops and sitting in
| paddling pools full of ice), but I definitely felt the cold.
| mettamage wrote:
| CTRL+F on "epinephrine" in [1]. There are a couple of charts
| that show it was much higher than the control. Dopamine, as a
| hormone not as a neurotransmitter (I think), was also
| measured and seemed to be lower or equal compared to control.
|
| But I can see why you say it's a mild MDMA effect, the WHM
| does a lot more than just adrenaline, but I simply use it for
| that. And I definitely notice the adrenaline effects of it as
| well. But I do agree there's more to it.
|
| [1] https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/111/20/7379.full.pdf
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| >The hardest challenge I did was climbing up a mountain in my
| shorts + shoes + socks for 2.5 hours at -7 degrees. I did not
| have frostbite in the end, none of us did
|
| >From my experiential point of view: the WHM doesn't warm your
| body, you simply don't get cold
|
| Does not compute. Have you violated the Laws of Thermodynamics?
| jhardy54 wrote:
| I think they mean "you simply don't feel cold".
| mettamage wrote:
| Yep, that's what I meant.
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| So why the point about frostbite? Surely you aren't
| implying that this technique will protect you from that?
| stouset wrote:
| Frostbite at the extremities is significantly a
| consequence of vascular constriction which prevents warm
| blood from flowing in and replacing heat lost to the
| elements.
|
| Anything that reduces that vasoconstriction (or actively
| dilates your blood vessels) will significantly delay the
| onset of frostbite. On net your body will lose heat
| faster as a result, but that can be offset by engaging
| other systems in your body responsible for generating
| heat.
| dougk16 wrote:
| Your body stores a tremendous amount of energy. For example
| I've personally fasted for 7 days, no calories in, and know
| people who have gone a month, no problems. Normal daily
| routine, exercise, etc. In a way you have even more zip in
| your step cause you're not processing all that food.
|
| So it's not like you're an inert lump out in the elements.
| You have the caloric equivalent of several gallons worth of
| gasoline in your body somewhat readily burnable (obviously at
| the tail end you'd start to look a little worn out). Systems
| like Wim Hof give you the ability to consciously tap into
| that energy reserve with enough practice.
|
| Also think about tiny animals like squirrels out in the
| elements all winter. Yes natural insulation plays a small
| role, but let me give you a fur coat and some nuts and see
| how long you last. ;) Not to mention surface:volume ratio
| much worse than humans. They're natural Wim Hof masters.
| godelski wrote:
| Why would you have to violate the laws of thermodynamics? You
| could simply consume more calories.
| microjim wrote:
| Found this part funny:
|
| > As I contemplated whether it could help me cope with the cold,
| it occurred to me that using this sacred technique to avoid
| discomfort might not be in line with its origins in Buddhism, a
| religion in which suffering is acknowledged and accepted.
|
| Buddhism is all about the complete cessation of suffering, so
| that part's not technically correct. The Buddha did talk a lot
| about renouncing physical comforts and not creating unnecessary
| suffering in harsh environments, though.
|
| The core body temperature part of this phenomenon is actually the
| less interesting part here. It's not too mind boggling that
| activating certain nervous pathways will stimulate certain
| metabolic activity and perhaps alter blood flow via hormonal
| means.
|
| Where it's really cool (read: even more practically useful in
| your everyday life) is to explore the effects on the mind. It's
| not controversial to claim that picturing a warm fire inside your
| body will bring some degree mental comfort in cold or very cold
| conditions. However for most people, this would hard to sustain.
|
| One would look around, see the snow, remember how thin one's
| clothing is, and be interrupted with the cold sensations making
| contact with the skin. Further thoughts about how cold it is are
| likely to arise, and the nice belly fire and the comfort it
| provided is no more. One might even start to imagine the lack of
| warm blood going to the extremities, the cold penetrating down to
| the bones, and frostbite setting in, even if that's not the case
| yet.
|
| It's easy to imagine how, with a trained mind, one might have a
| greater ability to sustain this internal mental fabrication
| (buddhism calls this _sankhara_ ) of an internal fire. Not only
| strengthening it and maintaining attention on it, but de-
| prioritising the amount of mental activity devoted to thinking
| about how cold it is (i.e. mental fabrications around the cold -
| like it reaching the bones).
|
| Why it's useful to explore this, is to consider that in ordinary
| life we are doing this sort of thing constantly - it's simply
| that it's to a lesser degree, and in subtler ways. The
| implications of that to our quality of life are enormous. Ever
| notice how the world _looks_ different when when something good
| happens, or you are feeling optimistic, versus when things aren
| 't going so well and you're more pessimistic?
|
| The extent to which we put together our experience, and, by
| extension, how we can begin to have some influence over that as a
| conscious process is sorely, sorely underestimated.
| [deleted]
| ppsreejith wrote:
| A recent reddit video seems relevant here:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/sx7by...
|
| From the title:
|
| > An Indian Yogi filmed by Indian Army personnel while patrolling
| in the Himalayas. The Yogi can be seen Meditating, chanting the
| name of God and bursting with ecstasy while being accompanied by
| a dog in the beyond survival clime of Himalayas.
| familymart wrote:
| Ever get super mad?
|
| Same thing.
| sebastianconcpt wrote:
| That is also a way to make the body warm but I think the case
| is to do it somehow voluntarily and not as an emotional
| reaction that prepares your body for flight/fight.
| familymart wrote:
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| tummo or not. breating techniques exist for thousands of years.
| it's a repackaged and simplified interpretation of Pranayama,
| Tummo, anything he happened to stubmle upon. And WH is not very
| much scientifically inclined. He has been several times repeating
| the idea that hyperventilation provides the body with more
| oxygen. The opposite is true (Bohr effect). Also he reinterpretes
| subduing an immunological response with beating an infection. His
| experiment involved a harmless bacteria which causes
| immunological response but no detrimental effects on health. His
| son is is Chief Marketing Officer - also obvious from several
| videos. Of course he'll say whatever benefits the trademark. In
| one (I think) Vice episode he presents a friend of his with
| cancer thanking WH for helping him with the method. He died from
| cancer.
|
| WHM is a neat little technique with lots of bells and whistles
| attached to hit. No more no less. I enjoy applying it from time
| to time for what it's worth. But don't expect any revelations or
| enlightenment. And I never had an experience coming even remotely
| close to a DMT trip.
|
| There are many similar techniques btw - they all boil down to
| hyperventilate, then stop and let CO2 build up (some with lungs
| empty some with lungs filled) and have oxygen be released to the
| cells in a little Oxygen shower. The more you read and think
| about it the less exciting it gets. It's nice - yes - but very
| limited. Much more healthy in the long run is slow breathing. But
| it's not as exciting and it's not marketed by a would-be-shaman
| who rambles on about philosophical ideas and curses all the time.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| I think this article is about the Wim Hof Method, although the
| site's design kept me from reading it. I've done a workshop with
| a WHM instructor, and for anyone wanting to try it, there are
| three key points I would say. (Note, that I am not an instructor
| myself, I've only done one workshop and practiced myself.) This
| works not just when going swimming in cold water or taking an ice
| water dip, but also in cold weather when you're not dressed warm
| enough to be comfortable.
|
| Deep breathing. Not slow, but full and continuous inhaling and
| exhaling to the boundaries of lung capacity.
|
| Physically and mentally relaxing. Shivering is a way to generate
| heat through motion. To counter it, and stimulate chemical heat
| generation, relax all the muscles. To relax mentally, something
| like breath meditation.
|
| Mental/visual. Imagine being warm, like on a hot beach laying on
| the sand.
|
| Hope this anecdata helps someone. I wouldn't count on it
| replacing warm clothes, but it's nice in a pinch.
| totetsu wrote:
| I've passed out doing this kind of thing during systema
| training. I wouldn't like to try it tramping through the snow.
| zikduruqe wrote:
| I did the WHM for 1000 days a few years ago. I can definitely
| say my cold tolerance has increased, even after stopping the
| breathing, cold showers, etc...
|
| I look at it like how a boxer reprograms themselves not to
| flinch when a punch is thrown at their face through repeated
| conditioning. Instead of instantly regretting the cold, you
| learn to accept it and not pre-program your reactions to it.
| Since most people live in 70 degree temps all the time, walking
| out into sub-freezing weather with minimal clothes is an
| instant shock to them.
|
| I am just some weirdo that walks around in the cold barefooted
| and in shorts all year around, and no expert in reprogramming
| their parasympathetic nervous system or commanding my white
| blood cells to attack things. The WHM method just allows me to
| do it longer and in colder weather. YMMV and all that.
| bmj wrote:
| Hof is only mentioned in passing in this particular essay.
| a9dhalaan wrote:
| "Not slow, but full and continuous inhaling and exhaling to the
| boundaries of lung capacity."
|
| Sounds like some serious hyperventilation - I wouldn't
| recommend doing that as it can lead to cerebral hypoxia
| serverlessmom wrote:
| This is really interesting, I had never heard of this type of
| meditation until now and I have been using those techniques
| since I was a child waiting for the bus in the early morning
| with what I felt was success at the time.
|
| I similarly remember willfully altering my heart beat at the
| doctor's office on several occasions as a practical joke. I
| wonder if the two situations are linked in a significant way?
| darkerside wrote:
| Ha, that's interesting. In what way did you alter your
| heartbeat?
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| I also have the amazing paranormal ability to "alter my
| heartbeat", it's called jumping jacks.
| [deleted]
| mettamage wrote:
| > Deep breathing. Not slow, but full and continuous inhaling
| and exhaling to the boundaries of lung capacity.
|
| In is full, out is normal.
|
| Disclaimer: I've trained 4 days with Wim for one of his
| landmark experiments. I was one of the guinea pigs.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| Thank you
| nkzd wrote:
| Has this experience and things you learned along the way
| helped you in your life?
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| Just off the top of my head...
|
| I'm more likely to go swimming, even when the water is
| cold.
|
| I'm more likely to take a cold shower, which has many
| benefits.
|
| Just generally being uncomfortably cold less often, as
| others have mentioned.
|
| And that general good feeling of "I didn't think I could do
| that, but I did!"
| mettamage wrote:
| Yep, whenever I do not want to feel cold, I can. Note: I
| wouldn't describe it as feeling warm. In fact, I'd describe
| it as a pretty adrenaline-like state [1]. That adrenaline-
| like state is much more comfortable than feeling cold. It's
| super practical to have this when you think about it, the
| weather's got nothing on me! It's really tough for me to
| feel unhappy about the weather, because whenever I do, I
| can use my superpower and go from a chilly/shivery person
| to a person that can suddenly handle -5 degrees celsius in
| their shorts (with shoes on though).
|
| The only thing that still annoys me is rain and hail at
| times. But as a chilly/shivery person the issue was always
| cold temperatures for me. That issue is gone. I say it with
| surprise because I still think it sounds crazy. Before 2014
| it had such an impact on my life and suddenly all that
| misery just drops to zero.
|
| Spiritually though, I didn't notice a lot, I'd rather stick
| to meditation for that. And whatever people may say, IMO,
| the Wim Hof Method is not a meditation. It's a combination
| of two breathing techniques + an optimistic trained/taught
| mentality about the cold being your friend.
|
| Oh, I also sometimes use it as a natural painkiller when I
| don't have one on me and start to get a headhache. You know
| since the adrenaline-like state includes some actual
| adrenaline [1] :)
|
| One "issue" with the WHM is that you need to keep doing it
| to stay in the state. It otherwise wains after 5 minutes or
| so. Because of this, it's impossible for me to be social in
| a normal sense, since breathing in a very specific way +
| talking at the same time is about as tough as beatboxing
| while singing (which I know how to do as well :P). Which
| means: it requires a lot of practice and trickery.
|
| [1] Research shows you get a lot of adrenaline in. It's in
| the publication I was a guinea pig for:
| https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/111/20/7379.full.pdf
| blunte wrote:
| Writing for the sake of writing. But I'll get to that in a
| moment...
|
| "the dog has to be pushed outside" What? No, if it's that cold,
| you keep the dog against your body, and you both benefit.
|
| Anyway, in these times of competition for attention, the written
| word is losing. Therefore, it is increasingly important that what
| is written is succinct and meaningful. This "article" talks about
| stuff without reaching a conclusion. It's like a trailer for a
| movie that doesn't exist.
|
| Yes, people have demonstrated that they can gain some level of
| control over their own calorie burn for self-heating. How they do
| it is still a mystery, just as how much of the mind works is
| still a mystery.
|
| Tell us how. Don't say, "Oh here are some more people who do it"
| in 2000 words.
| LynxInLA wrote:
| _" the dog has to be pushed outside" What? No, if it's that
| cold, you keep the dog against your body, and you both
| benefit._
|
| I'm pretty sure they are saying they need to convince the dog
| to go outside to urinate. I don't think you really want that on
| your body when it is cold outside...
| a9dhalaan wrote:
| Yea, the article quickly lost my attention so i scrolled to the
| bottom and read the last 2 paragraphs hoping for a meaningful
| answer to the articles question, but no luck. Can someone who
| has the time to read this summarize it for the rest of us?
| nuclearnice1 wrote:
| > succinct
|
| has never been the New Yorker house style.
|
| I agree more how would be a treat. I assume Kozhevnikov's
| agreement to keep the how confidential was an impediment.
|
| But a couple things I noted:
|
| * G-tummo meditation, she went on, is not a state of
| relaxation but arousal. She thinks it may increase blood flow
| to the brain. G-tummo is difficult, requiring years of
| dedication to master.
|
| * Try "visualizing your fingers in hot water, or yourself in
| a hot environment,"
|
| There is more how in the corresponding Plos one article https
| ://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
| blunte wrote:
| Perhaps our natural inability to control our low-level
| biological systems is on average better at keeping us
| alive. After all, if we could control any system without
| really understanding all the interactions and
| repercussions, we probably would die accidentally more
| often.
| adamsmith143 wrote:
| sdoering wrote:
| > "results must be interpreted with caution given the low subject
| number and the fact that both participants practised the g-Tummo
| like breathing technique." [0]
|
| Wim Hof not only claims that his method will keep one warm, but
| also a lot of other health benefits. Very few of these have any
| scientific backing. Hyperventilation's effects on inflammatory
| responses are well known.
|
| His claims regarding arthritis, MS or even Parkinson's are not
| only spurious at best to be kind in wording. I would personally
| call them bullshit. There is just no scientific evidence at all
| for these claims.
|
| Ensuring through deep breath that your chest muscles are moving
| and warming and by that warming your blood is nice - but not
| more. There are no studies scientifically researching the method
| with multiple subjects. Only studies that look at him (and his
| twin).
|
| So we have "studies" with n=2 and massive claims from him. While
| he sells his books/seminars/method.
|
| People have died attempting the Wim Hof Method (one example [1]).
|
| To me - this person is good at PR. Knows how to sell these days.
| And how to be a personal brand. I have to give credit for that.
|
| [0]:
| https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23328940.2017.1...
| [1]: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/singapore/wim-hof-
| breathing-...
| neatze wrote:
| Your claim that he is just a hack is false, I suggest you
| (re)read Win Hof's wiki article and review references. He is
| not a first nor the last human being who is able to endure
| extreme conditions that are/where perceive impossible in some
| cases.
| mandmandam wrote:
| I don't think this is remotely fair. Or true. It sounds like
| you have an axe to grind.
|
| Your own link speaks of multiple health benefits to
| hyperventilation and cold exposure, and of studies with
| multiple Non-Wim participants, even while coming across biased
| itself.
|
| As well, Wim constantly advises people clearly and consistently
| not to practice in water more than an inch deep by themselves.
| Constantly.
| n4r9 wrote:
| His website does have this claim:
|
| > The Wim Hof Method is also linked to reducing symptoms of
| diseases like rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis,
| Parkinson's disease, asthma, sarcoidosis, vasculitis, and
| several autoimmune diseases.
|
| https://www.wimhofmethod.com/breathing-exercises
|
| No references cited, curious to know what it's based on.
| "Linked to" is quite a vague phrase.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| Just a guess as a fan of Wim, he could be relying on
| testimonial by workshop participants. Needs peer review,
| could be placebo, etc but that's where science starts,
| noticing that some variable has an effect. Wim is not a
| scientist but he is excited to make claims that should be
| tested.
|
| To me it makes sense, my (non-expert) understanding is
| those diseases are cases where the body is attacking
| itself. The immune system is a balancing act, it is blind
| to what is really happening, it has to rely on a threshold
| of when to respond to what it senses as danger. When I
| breath hold and/or expose myself to cold, I feel like I am
| giving my body a small taste of death, recalibrating my
| body to what danger feels like.
| can16358p wrote:
| People died doing the one thing what Wim constantly says NOT to
| do: practicing near a water that you can drown in.
|
| This isn't fault of Wim Hof method. He warns about the risk of
| fainting (which isn't a problem on its own) near a body of
| water (where fainting becomes a problem) all the time.
| sdoering wrote:
| As far as I am aware he started issuing this warning (against
| practicing near/in water after people drowned).
| mettamage wrote:
| I agree, it's not a freedive method and shouldn't be used as
| such. If you do, you can die.
| AlchemistCamp wrote:
| Wim Hof may be an n=1 case study, but he has subjected himself
| to an extraordinary amount of medical study.
|
| What is your expertise on this topic?
| can16358p wrote:
| He also took completely untrained people, taught them his
| methods, than took them to top of Everest almost naked.
|
| This makes the study definitely n > 1.
| sdoering wrote:
| Nobody questioned the part about breathing oneself warm.
| There was even a plausible hypothesis towards the
| mechanism.
|
| But there is neither a plausible mechanism nor any data
| that gives credit to the health effects his teachings shall
| provide.
| kritiko wrote:
| Kilimanjaro, I think. Even Wim Hof hasn't summited Everest.
| can16358p wrote:
| You're right confused it. My bad. Yet rest of the
| argument applies.
| mettamage wrote:
| To the Everest? When? He took them to the Kilimanjaro, that
| one I know, I almost was part of it but chickened out
| (since altitude sickness might be a thing and some people
| did actually drop out from what I remember, in the first
| run no one dropped out though). He attempted the Everest
| himself and he had to go back. He said that mt. Everest was
| a different beast, the cold is way harsher there and he
| didn't even reach the death zone (8.5km). He almost got
| there though, in his shorts.
| can16358p wrote:
| Oh sorry he climbed some part of Everest himself, and
| took people to Kilimanjaro. My bad, confused two distinct
| events.
| hammock wrote:
| >People have died attempting the Wim Hof Method (one example
| [1]).
|
| Does WH recommend using his method for breath-holding
| underwater? (I don't know)
|
| Hyperventilation causing deaths underwater is well-known and
| not specific to WHM
| Panino wrote:
| > Does WH recommend using his method for breath-holding
| underwater? (I don't know)
|
| No, he explicitly says don't do that. Just one example:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzCaZQqAs9I&t=56s
| colordrops wrote:
| Not having a scientific study backing something by default
| makes it bullshit? Was mindfulness meditation bullshit until
| scientists stamped it with their approval?
|
| It seems that a proper scientific mindset would declare
| something neither true nor false until a study is done.
| Quekid5 wrote:
| The default is 'disbelief', yes. At least with grand claims
| and when no clear plausible mechanism of action, etc. etc. is
| proposed.
|
| As to whether 'bullshit' is justified, I dunno. I just see
| that as being a bit blunt phrasing-wise.
| sdoering wrote:
| That bluntness was the reason I clearly marked it as my
| personal opinion and not that of the scientific community.
|
| I like bluntness, as it often helps to cut to the core of
| things.
|
| But I try as best I can not to be blunt against people, but
| ideas/hypotheses.
| icoder wrote:
| I don't see them calling the practice bullshit, just the
| claims.
| colordrops wrote:
| What's the difference?
| [deleted]
| hnfong wrote:
| > It seems that a proper scientific mindset would declare
| something neither true nor false until a study is done.
|
| That's how it's supposed to be done, but generally I don't
| see that happening... _cough_ COVID19 _cough_.
|
| The GP did say that the "bullshit" note was their personal
| opinion though.
| onion2k wrote:
| _It seems that a proper scientific mindset would declare
| something neither true nor false until a study is done._
|
| That's true but it doesn't mean what you're implying it
| means. You're suggesting that saying "We don't know" means
| there's an equal probability that the thing will turn out to
| be true as there is it'll turn out to be false. That's not
| what skepticism in science means. It's entirely valid to say
| "The chance of this being real is 0.01." and then use science
| to prove it it's false. You might turn out to be wrong, and
| that tiny chance shows that the science was worthwhile, but
| _most of the time_ you 'll just end up showing that your
| intuition was correct.
| darkerside wrote:
| You can say "this is probably wrong" before you start
| experimenting, but it's not scientific at all. There's a
| reason practitioners are blinded in a double blind trial.
| Also, there is an art to deciding what to "aim" your
| science at, and as much as some might hate to admit it, it
| is simply based on logic and intuition.
|
| In this case, it is entirely logical to me that breathing
| can modify circulatory patterns pumping more blood to your
| joints, thereby promoting healing for arthritis. I'd
| personally be surprised if there was zero benefit, but I
| respect your right to a different intuition from mine.
|
| I'm less confident about any similar benefits to something
| like MS although perhaps circulation to the brain could be
| similarly helpful. I'd recommend withholding judgment until
| we have more science, but again, that's my intuition. If
| you don't want to improve your breathing, you certainly
| don't have to.
| simiones wrote:
| > In this case, it is entirely logical to me that
| breathing can modify circulatory patterns pumping more
| blood to your joints, thereby promoting healing for
| arthritis.
|
| By this logic, people with tachycardia would be much
| faster at healing, right? Since all that you can do with
| breathing techniques directly (without discussing how
| this might affect your mind etc.) is to increase your
| pulse and maybe arterial pressure. Why exactly increased
| pulse would _reduce_ the inflammatory auto-immune
| response that is the cause of arthritis is beyond me. If
| anything, I would expect increased blood flow to increase
| the auto-immune response and make the arthritis worse.
| tarboreus wrote:
| Not the person you're responding to, but my experience as
| a runner and someone who practices breathing is that it
| does engage some specific mechanisms that promote certain
| kinds of blood flow. I think your intuition here is off,
| and you're treating the body as a pretty simple machine
| rather than something that has some pretty sophisticated
| feedback mechanisms between the mind and the body.
| simiones wrote:
| As I said, I am open to explanations that this is a
| mind/body effect.
|
| I am _not_ open to explanations that breathing fast /deep
| in itself, through the extra blood flow that it can
| obviously generate, are directly therapeutic for
| arthritis. This was, by my understanding, GP's preferred
| explanation.
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| Mindfulness meditation still does nothing. Read "Altered
| Traits" - the author practiced for 10 years and then ended up
| taking medication to control blood pressure.
| dpark wrote:
| Did you really trot out a lone anecdote about someone
| needing blood pressure medication to claim that mindfulness
| medication does nothing?
| awb wrote:
| > It seems that a proper scientific mindset would declare
| something neither true nor false until a study is done.
|
| Bertrand Russell might disagree. You don't need to weight all
| conjectures equally or even entertain them without sufficient
| explanation or evidence.
|
| Here's his Russell's Teapot thought experiment:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
| colordrops wrote:
| Except these claims are not empirically unfalsifiable.
| sdoering wrote:
| Thanks. Spares me to post the teapot. Also in a lot of
| cases - this being one of it, we already know that many of
| the effects are not possible under the proscribed methods.
| Science already knows a lot from other inquiries and
| studies having shown that claimed effects are not
| realistically probable.
|
| It is like if I create a study showing that black cars with
| a combustion engine need gasoline to run.
|
| Someone later stating that red cars with a combination
| engine can run on pure water from the tap doesn't warrant a
| new study.
| colordrops wrote:
| > we already know that many of the effects are not
| possible under the proscribed methods
|
| Do we? This is news to me. Do you have any studies or
| explanations as to how this is the case?
| krageon wrote:
| > Was mindfulness meditation bullshit
|
| "mindfulness" is a corporate re-packaged and whitewashed
| variant of buddhist meditation tradition. It misses the point
| spectacularly and actively seeks to cultivate a harmful
| mindset. This is not something to refer to positively, or to
| use as a benchmark.
| dpark wrote:
| > _It misses the point spectacularly and actively seeks to
| cultivate a harmful mindset._
|
| This is some impressive hand waving. You said literally
| nothing meaningful here.
|
| > _This is not something to refer to positively, or to use
| as a benchmark._
|
| Lots of people find it benefits them. I would absolutely
| refer to a treatment that people find useful as positive.
| mettamage wrote:
| I've met Wim Hof [1], his mind is not precise when it comes to
| scientific things. In that sense I'd recommend a huge caution
| to what he claims about the health benefits of his method. But
| hey, at least he's utilizing the placebo effect, and trust me,
| when you use his actual method for things it actually works
| for, you still want that placebo effect added to it as well ;-)
|
| Luckily though, he does recognize that to some extent. Because
| of that, he sometimes does research with actual scientists, and
| I have talked to a few of them. IMO those claims you can trust,
| or at least trust as much as any scientific claim.
|
| [1] Fun fact: one of the first comments I made on HN was about
| the WHM :)
| andreilys wrote:
| Instead of relying on peer reviewed paper in Nature, why don't
| you try it for yourself?
| PaulHoule wrote:
| I had a psychogenic fever last year and lost about 10 pounds in
| the course of two weeks that I kept off for months.
|
| I've been thinking how to do it again but haven't had a good idea
| on how. I've tried biofeedback with a thermometer that goes under
| my tongue but I could really use one that records continuously.
| sto_hristo wrote:
| As a kid in the kindergarten, we were miserable commies and there
| wasn't heating all the time in the winter. I vividly remember how
| one time our "caregiver" round us up in a semicircle around her
| and she started mumbling how we will begin feeling heat as she
| was extending her hand towards us. I felt getting warmer and
| warmer. Then we went to bed for our afternoon nap under the
| horrifying sounds of an opera singer woman.
| fristechill wrote:
| Intuitively the converse seems to be true: getting into a hot
| bath, the muscles relax, the arteries relax and the mind goes
| merrily off to the races with interesting ideas. Presumably
| because it is freed from a certain amount of its bodily
| management duties.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| I can't warm myself with my mind, but I do get cold when I have
| an anxiety attack, and I can cause myself pain by thinking about
| it - pretty much at will, anywhere in my body. Is that a
| superpower?
| autohnacc wrote:
| There is a meditation technique common in Europe called Autogenic
| Training that is focused on warming up parts of the body as its
| central technique. There's a lot of evidence for its efficacy.
| sebastianconcpt wrote:
| An ex I had knew I had a way to do it voluntarily and in cold
| days she came all over me and asked me to do it so she can
| "steal" heat from my body.
| winnit wrote:
| Might be worth rewording that, I guess you mean 'she was all
| over me'?. 'Came all over me' makes it sound like she
| ejaculated all over you.
| sebastianconcpt wrote:
| Indeed. Can't edit the comment tho. Great native speaking
| feedback because indeed although she liked it a lot, it
| wasn't enough to make her squirt.
| can16358p wrote:
| I know I can. Just with thoughts and meditation. Actually I
| though everyone could do it and was surprised that this is even
| newsworthy. I expose myself to cold since my childhood (check out
| Wim Hof method for some practical examples and the scientific
| explanation) and can heat myself when I need it.
|
| I remember some memories where I had a dog, he was cold and
| shaking after swimmimg, embracing him.
|
| He still kept shaking and when I thought of a thing that made me
| feel warm (kind of shivering/vibrating feeling) and goosebumps he
| immediately stopped shaking. After a few seconds he starts
| shaking again. Repeat this process on countless occasions, always
| the same result.
| autohnacc wrote:
| Check out Autogenic Training. It sounds like you've discovered
| some of its methods through your experimentation.
| thanatos519 wrote:
| Nothing beat personal experience, right? If you're in tune with
| your body, you can warm yourself _and others_ by projecting
| heat.
| can16358p wrote:
| Yup. I totally know what works as I've experienced things
| myself.
|
| But it's kind of hard to set up scientific methodology to
| prove things with n = (enter convincing amount of subjects)
| where there are many subjective sides in the experiment (e.g.
| Thinking of something that makes you shiver/goosebump is hard
| to apply at scale as for many that is result of something
| subjective and different for each individual)
|
| I'd love to see some organization to set up an experiment
| though.
| krageon wrote:
| > it's kind of hard to set up scientific methodology to
| prove things
|
| Why would you? It works, it's a teachable method. To my
| mind, the inquiry doesn't have to progress far beyond that.
| Unless perhaps you value doing things solely for knowledge,
| which is something academia stopped doing ages ago (and
| arguably never really did).
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| False, it's not difficult at all to set up even minimally
| rigorous scientific experiment. Now you might not like the
| results that you gather from the experiment, so I would
| imagine that it's in your best interest to _not_ pursue and
| gather actual objective evidence.
|
| Take an infrared thermometer, point it at the part of your
| body that you're visualizing heating up. Observe the
| results. Took me five seconds to come up with this
| experiment.
| new_guy wrote:
| Wim Hof is a party trick for children.
|
| Pranayama is a science that's thousands of years old. It's much
| better to go directly to the source than some bastardised
| commercialised western version:
|
| http://www.yogebooks.com/english/atkinson/1903sciencebreath....
| [deleted]
| doobiedowner wrote:
| I'd do this to fake a fever when I was a kid. Try to breath out
| really hard without letting it out. Get red, dizzy, and warm.
| krageon wrote:
| > Pranayama is a science
|
| It's not a science, it's a practice with a long tradition.
| Those are very different things.
| throwaway984393 wrote:
| Also, Pranayama has always been a general concept with
| differing interpretations rather than a single thing. For
| some it's a set of exercises, for others it's intended to
| slowly stop you from breathing. Some of it literally is just
| snorting water.
| jbotz wrote:
| One could also say:
|
| Pranayama is a thousands of years old religious practice laden
| down with ritual and unscientific concepts such as "vital life
| force".
|
| Wim Hof has, by trial and error, distilled the essential parts
| of it into a modern practice free of religious baggage.
| winnit wrote:
| On the contrary, trial and error is a process that relies on
| thousands of years and many subjects to yield reliable
| repeatable results. Unless you are implying that Wim Hoff
| studied pranayama deeply and learned for himself the aspects
| of the practice which are relevant to him (which he now
| extols), I don't understand how you think that the trial and
| error of one man is better than that of generations of men -
| is it just because the first is a Westerner?
| [deleted]
| jbotz wrote:
| I really can't speak about Pranayama practice, but in
| general, just because something has been around for 1000s
| of years doesn't mean it has been improving. Ideas and
| practices associated with religion tend to be quite static,
| of the "do this ritual 3 times, not 2, not 4, the number
| shall be 3 times" variety. With a few exceptions, religions
| do not tend to encourage trial and error. And yes, I know
| Buddhism is one of the rare exceptions, at least as taught
| by the Gautama Buddha... even so, many Buddhist sects today
| are quite calcified and full of extraneous ritual; the main
| exception is Zen.
|
| Win Hof claims he spent decades intensely practicing Yoga
| and refining his techniques. I don't know if that's true,
| but I absolutely can believe that in principle someone can
| improve on thousands of years old religious practices doing
| that.
| winnit wrote:
| Yes, there is a similar expression in the Bible to the
| one you attributed to the buddha 'But test everything.
| Keep what is good, and stay away from everything that is
| evil.'. Though in practice, you are right, such advice is
| often overlooked. My personal encounters with pranayama
| e.g. reading Iyengar's 'Light of Pranayama' are that the
| ritual aspects are not strongly emphasised but there is a
| cultural message designed to keep alive aspects of the
| tradition which are beneficial - in a way which could be
| compared to the learning of Kung Fu, where anger is the
| main emotional enemy of successful practice.
|
| On a side note, I wonder what the general reception
| amongst the tech community is to Tesla's eccentricities
| e.g. opening and closing a door thrice before entering a
| room. Of course, these are mostly seen as expressions of
| OCD and ignored but I wonder if there isn't any
| connection between these impulses of Tesla's and his
| particular genius? I worry that in the process of
| stripping away superstitions we might accidentally take
| away more than we desired and lose the authentic
| character of progress.
| ben_w wrote:
| The important difference between "ancients knew a true thing"
| and "science" is that ancients also believed a lot of things
| that were not true and didn't even have a way to find out which
| was which.
|
| Sometimes, and non-scientists _everywhere_ do this, the truth
| is intermixed with the false so deeply that the truth is even
| used as evidence for the false.
| darkerside wrote:
| The ego of thinking nothing is true until Western science has
| proven it as such. This reeks of Columbus discovering
| America.
| ben_w wrote:
| > nothing is true until Western science has proven it as
| such
|
| That's not even remotely what I said.
|
| First, true things are true even if no human has learned
| them.
|
| Second, science is not just western. China, India, Japan,
| both Koreas all have their own space programs, for example.
|
| Third, the west was nothing special until it started
| applying (proto-) scientific methods. Miasma, spontaneous
| generation, demonology, etc. were all common false beliefs
| that scientific investigation disabused.
|
| Fouth, science doesn't even try to prove anything true, all
| it tries to filter out falsehoods to a reasonable
| likelihood -- "Does substance X have an effect?" a non-
| scientist may imagine a scientist doing some tests and
| "proving" it works, but the reality is closer to "Null
| hypothesis means it is indistinguishable from the absence,
| alternative hypothesis is that it is different from the
| absence, can we reasonably reject the null hypothesis with
| this quantity of evidence?"
|
| This last one is key, and why the west isn't e.g. trying to
| conquer literal Hell in the name of Jehova etc.
| darkerside wrote:
| > ancients also believed a lot of things that were not
| true and didn't even have a way to find out which was
| which
|
| > science doesn't even try to prove anything true
|
| I agree with the second statement and not the first.
| can16358p wrote:
| Thanks to that "bastardized commercial" version I'd actually
| learned about Pranayama, which I probably would have never
| discovered if there wasn't Wim Hof.
| njx wrote:
| I meditate almost daily for roughly 2+ hours and during that
| period I can feel waves of heat passing through the entire body.
| The solar center is located just below the navel. If you focus in
| the naval area you can generate heat.
|
| I don't practice to generate heat but certainly see that as a
| side effect. I wonder if these Monks and Yogis can stay warm the
| entire day or just during the meditation practices
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