[HN Gopher] Dutch antitrust authority fines Apple for fifth time
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Dutch antitrust authority fines Apple for fifth time
Author : keleftheriou
Score : 62 points
Date : 2022-02-21 17:54 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.fosspatents.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.fosspatents.com)
| djohnston wrote:
| Nice, Apple keeps dragging their feet and rolling out BS
| alternatives and eventually the whole EU is going to kick them in
| the teeth.
| withinboredom wrote:
| There are probably a few devs at Apple trying to work something
| out, hearing conflicting things from the attorneys ("don't
| worry about it, we've got this") and their manager ("my boss
| wants something in case they don't got this"). There's probably
| a bunch of hardcoded bits about it, it needs to go through QA,
| all while not pissing on the attorney's parade.
|
| I've been one of those devs once. It wasn't nearly as high
| stakes though.
| djohnston wrote:
| As a SWE, the liklihood of my leaving is directly correlated
| with the frequency of my interactions with lawyers. There is
| such a desparate need for lawyers with a tech background.
| withinboredom wrote:
| Got sued once and another time I had to implement GDPR/CPRA
| compliant anonymization of terabytes of data. The latter
| involved weekly meetings with lawyers to go over the
| algorithms in layman's terms until we arrived at something
| they were happy with and felt they could defend it in
| court.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| Just a simple math question: Is keeping the in-app purchasing
| regime from collapsing worth more than $50 million to them? Yep.
|
| Even if the Dutch revenue isn't that much, once one country
| succeeds the rest will follow that model. Apple and Google are
| just going to delay as much as possible, and when their delay
| tactics no longer work, eat the fines until they're higher than
| the profits.
| withinboredom wrote:
| I somehow doubt IAP revenue with dating apps in the Netherlands
| >= 5 million EUR a week.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| The issue is the global revenue: If any country can get them
| to forego 30% profits, the rest will follow in short order.
| withinboredom wrote:
| I thought the issue was in regards to laws surrounding
| dating apps and not generalized? FWIW, here, some NL
| specific apps just accept a direct bank transfer without
| any IAP, right in the app. Apple reviewers don't seem to
| care.
| yreg wrote:
| Perhaps they could kick dating apps out of the Dutch App
| Store.
| iruoy wrote:
| Just paying the fine doesn't allow them to keep the status quo.
|
| This is a nice article [1] about what the ACM is asking for and
| why Apple is making an effort to comply.
|
| Also, this lawsuit is for dating apps specifically, but should
| pave the way for other categories to follow right?
|
| [1] https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/14/22917514/apple-
| netherland...
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| _> Those weekly sanctions can reach--but not exceed--a total of
| EUR50 million ($56.7 million)._
|
| That's "sofa-cushion money" for Apple. I have a feeling that
| they'll just pay it, and carry on as usual.
| [deleted]
| kingcharles wrote:
| Is the only relief available monetary? Can the government not
| get an injunction?
|
| Otherwise, if I were EvilCorp Inc, then I would just keep doing
| my thing and paying the Dutch government their "tax".
| CGamesPlay wrote:
| That's 0.8% of their total annual revenue, and almost assuredly
| much greater than their Dutch annual revenue.
| ummonk wrote:
| You're off by a factor of 5. It's 0.016% of their annual
| revenue.
| [deleted]
| mortenjorck wrote:
| It reminds me of a notorious bar here in Chicago that has
| continued to allow indoor smoking ever since the city's 2008
| ban went into effect. The popular understanding is that they
| just keep paying the fines as a cost of doing business.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| >Those weekly sanctions can reach--but not exceed--a total of
| EUR50 million ($56.7 million).
|
| does this mean it could read 50 million per week, or 50 million
| in total. I would assume per week, as in total does not seem
| reasonable, but the wording is ambiguous.
| warp wrote:
| My understanding is that EUR 50 million is the max of the
| current sanction, but that the ACM can always just impose
| another set of sanctions if they feel Apple hasn't sufficiently
| fixed the problem.
|
| The sanctions can at most be 10% of (dutch) revenue. However,
| that can double to 20% if Apple re-offends within 5 years.
|
| And apparently just paying the fines without any attempt to fix
| the problem for which you're fined can be considered "Contempt
| of court", which allows a judge to impose further penalties of
| increasing severity (not just fines), at least according to
| this blog post by a dutch lawyer:
| https://blog.iusmentis.com/2022/02/18/wat-kan-de-acm-doen-da...
| wjnc wrote:
| Total. Based on coverage in Dutch press. An issue I read about
| is that the sanctions can reach a maximum of a percentage of
| earnings (10%) but they need to take the exact legal entity
| into account.
|
| There are other ways in Dutch law to threaten firms with larger
| amounts but not all of those are open to the antitrust
| authority. A judge could threaten penalties that can escalate
| quickly when a company remains non complaint and even persons
| (in this case: directors) can be taken hostage for not
| complying. (Obviously, that is a last resort measure and not
| often used.) Dutch source [1]
|
| [1] https://blog.iusmentis.com/2022/02/18/wat-kan-de-acm-doen-
| da...
| slenk wrote:
| $50M total? No one at Apple would notice
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| > I agree with mobile app business guru Eric Seufert that the
| impact of Apple's ATT (anti-ad-tracking) policy on Shopify's
| stock price raises concerns about how small and medium-sized
| businesses (many of which rely on Shopify) suffer under the Apple
| tyranny.
|
| Cry me a river. Letting people control how they're tracked isn't
| "tyranny".
|
| > I think Apple's conduct following the ACM decision is above
| board. Sort of hardball, but not out of line--and not entirely
| without merit.
|
| Really? "Sort of" hardball? Apple's absolutely giving the finger
| to Dutch authorities. They're not even complying with the letter
| of the ruling, let alone its intent. C'mon.
| ummonk wrote:
| They did comply with the ruling by allowing companies to submit
| apps for the Dutch market that use third party payment
| processors (albeit with the 27% fee which the ruling did not
| seem to have an issue with).
|
| The Dutch ACM is now trying to make its ruling apply
| extraterritorially by rejecting Apple's solution of allowing a
| Netherlands-specific app.
| orra wrote:
| fosspatents? I strongly remember this alleged FOSS supporter
| shilling for Oracle back in the day of the Oracle v. Google case.
|
| On the topic of the article: good. Apple was clearly taking the
| piss by charging 27% for _not_ processing payments, immediately
| after being told by a legal authority that a 30% cut on in app
| payments was anticompetitive.
| conor_f wrote:
| I heard a point recently about driving in bus lanes as a private
| car: If it's just a repeated fine with no further consequence,
| it's not a fine but a cost.
|
| What happens next?
| lucb1e wrote:
| This is the Nth top comment saying the same thing (and it's
| also repetitive across sanction threads, open any thread where
| $bigcorp got a monetary fine). There have been good replies
| already posted to other subthreads here, e.g.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30420874 and
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30420630
| silvercove wrote:
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