[HN Gopher] The brain's reading of the body's state is key to me...
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The brain's reading of the body's state is key to mental health
Author : graderjs
Score : 155 points
Date : 2022-02-19 09:07 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (psyche.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (psyche.co)
| tomhoward wrote:
| Some friends have a 7-year-old son who is being assessed/treated
| for autism-spectrum disorder; he's outgoing, sociable and highly
| intelligent, but has issues with emotional and behavioural
| dysregulation and can often get into kind of manic states. One of
| the techniques I've seen his parents use when he's getting into
| these states is to ask "where are you feeling this in your
| body?", then for him to focus on that region while using
| controlled breathing to calm down.
|
| Re this: _There is also the possibility of using interoception
| training as a form of mental health treatment_
|
| This kind of thing exists, though still in the fringes. I've been
| using versions of it for over 10 years to resolve the effects of
| many earlier-life experiences caused ongoing charged reactions
| and chronic mental and physiological issues (after years of
| mainstream medical treatment and therapy was ineffective). It's
| very much a process of identifying and letting go of the way
| these experiences (often described as traumas, but not always in
| that category) are held/felt in different parts of the body
| ("butterflies the stomach" when nervous is the most obvious
| example, but goes much much further/deeper than this).
|
| I'm now completely free of depression and mostly free of anxiety
| and fatigue/pain issues (CFS/ME) but still continuing to
| progress.
|
| If any researches/professionals working in this field happen to
| be reading this, I'd love to get in touch.
| [deleted]
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| This sounds like variations on cognitive behavioral therapy and
| mindfulness in the best possible way. There are many mental
| illnesses that are curable in this way.
|
| And you're exactly right this exists but it isn't a fringe
| method without strong and clear evidence. It's just not the
| common approach.
|
| The key is finding good mental health professionals such as
| psychiatrists who specialize in holistic treatment or
| therapists who explicitly works on teaching therapy techniques.
|
| Unfortunately, people don't know enough about mental health to
| know this an option or they aren't willing to put in the work
| necessary. Changing your thinking is a long, slow process.
| mansoon wrote:
| Cognitive behavioral therapy by unskilled practitioners is a
| form of torture. The ethics are contextual. The manualized
| protocol is insufficient.
| mansoon wrote:
| The topmost comment in this tree is describing something I
| agree to as ethical.
| 0xcde4c3db wrote:
| > The key is finding good mental health professionals
|
| Unfortunately, the odds of actually doing this aren't great
| in my experience. The field seems to be packed with people
| who are only qualified on paper and have no idea how to
| actually help people, and it's hard to screen them without
| going through their intake process first.
| ratsmack wrote:
| With today's industrialized medicine, this is becoming a
| bigger problem across the entire medical system.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| I know. It's often difficult to find anyone at all.
| p1esk wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30398529
|
| I'm not associated with them, just saw it earlier today
| on HN.
| ericmcer wrote:
| Interesting, yeah this is kinda similar to "being present".
| Focusing intensely on something like how the inside of your
| knee feels or your breath can pull you away from your current
| mindset.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| It is. I find this technique extremely effective in combating
| psychosis, but it is exhausting to maintain for any length of
| time.
| andrei_says_ wrote:
| As someone with experience in similar approaches -
| exhausting because of the effort to keep your attention
| focused on the desired object and away from the destructive
| loop?
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| Basically. When dealing with psychosis, I'm having to
| constant ignore everything going on in my head and force
| myself see past whatever my brain wants to do, feel, and
| see.
|
| For me, I know what's real and what isn't. I just can't
| stop myself from acting on not real information.
| agumonkey wrote:
| it's interesting because meditation uses body-focus as a main
| trick
|
| also physical exercise and manual labour also floods your brain
| with signals from your body
|
| about your case and idea, do you think that our reflexes acts
| like a kind of stuck loop: situation X -> reflex ->
| interpretation of negative context -> more reflex .. a kind of
| emotional fibrillation :) ?
| ajkjk wrote:
| There are a lot of kinds of meditation, so saying that
| without qualification is too broad to be correct.
| gloryjulio wrote:
| This is the best plain description of the practical meditation
| techniques which can help to improve mental health. Hope more
| people can benefit from reading this.
| lokalfarm wrote:
| Have you read Focusing by Eugene Gendlin?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focusing_(psychotherapy)
| mansoon wrote:
| DM me please.
| tomhoward wrote:
| Thanks for the reply. No DMs on HN but you can email me
| (address in profile).
| ciconia wrote:
| This is something I've been exploring on a personal level lately.
| I'm practicing intermittent fasting, and have found that
| listening to your body is key to maintaining personal discipline.
|
| Sometimes I'd get "the munchies" and I'm gradually developing the
| ability to respond to those urges by stopping, listening to my
| body and understanding what it really wants. Now that it's more
| used to it, my body would say "I don't need anything right now, I
| have enough energy, proteins etc in my reserves, thank you."
|
| It also occurred to me that I can develop this skill of listening
| to my body for other uses/occasions. For example, listening to
| music can also be done with our skin, which is sensitive to
| vibrations.
|
| Finally, it's the realization that our bodies have a very rich
| interface with our environment, and can provide us with so many
| signals, we just need to turn off our brains for a while in order
| to have that feeling of connectedness.
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| I've done some intermittent fasting as well, and one thing I've
| noticed is that it's easier to suppress what feels like actual
| hunger (stomach rumbling kinda feeling) than it is to suppress
| a "want to eat", which I'm assuming is your "munchies".
|
| If I think of, or see, something like Country Cheese biscuits
| or Pringles, something clicks and there becomes a kind of
| vacuum in my mind which can only be filled by that particular
| snack.
|
| Want, it seems, outranks the mild beginnings of need.
|
| This is one data point that helped me realise just how much
| humans are tuned to be slaves to their habits.
| akdor1154 wrote:
| I have the same experience but had never consciously realized
| this difference. My gf is the opposite, which I find
| interesting. Genuine hunger is a much more intense feeling
| for her.
| amelius wrote:
| Reminds me of this video, where they ask: "where is your
| headache?", "what color is your headache?", etc.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKGtv84aSjo
| mansoon wrote:
| I can justify this exhaustively. I will not do so in an argument
| on the internet. You may ask questions. I reserve the right to
| refuse.
|
| This is how to protect your body if you have a strong impulse to
| argue, and you find yourself testing it on the internet.
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Assuming you are conscious of the impulse. :-)
| mansoon wrote:
| I have stated in nonviolent language. What further proof do
| you believe is possible?
|
| Becoming this aware almost killed me.
| buscoquadnary wrote:
| So this isn't directly related but is in a similar veind. There's
| a book I read called persuasion bt a Dr. Robert Calidni which is
| about demonstrating various types of subconscious tricks to get
| someone to be compliant. However one of the parts of the book I
| found interesting was he also noted that many of these tricks of
| persuasion would be made to disappear if the you brought
| someone's attention to the trigger. E.g people are less complaint
| when the weather outside is bad; however if you start by asking
| someone how the weather is the effect disappears.
|
| I take the whole book with a grain of salt since the whole of
| social psychology is full of tons of issues right now but it is
| interesting, especially when one considers the beneficial effects
| of meditation that have been observed when that is mostly about
| sitting and becoming aware of your body and your feelings.
| golemotron wrote:
| If this is true (and it seems to be), the metaverse and VR aren't
| likely to help mental health. Too much of our entertainment
| disembodies us.
| Hoasi wrote:
| > If this is true (and it seems to be), the metaverse and VR
| aren't likely to help mental health.
|
| And we haven't yet fully assessed the damage of "social" Web
| 2.0...
| agumonkey wrote:
| I second this wholeheartedly.
|
| I think there's no point in pursuing VR unless dedicated
| training / tooling.
|
| Approaching reality is pointless when you just have to walk
| outside.
| mansoon wrote:
| The body keeps the score is the best book on this that I am aware
| of.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| As someone who is bipolar, it's very easy to see how the mind and
| body are connected.
|
| Getting my high blood pressure treated significantly helped my
| anxiety, because it got rid of the constant pressure in my chest
| that felt like anxiety.
|
| Separating anxiety and asthma symptoms is difficult. They feel
| very similar and trigger each other.
|
| Unfortunately, this is far from new information. It is decades
| old and this study currently offers no greater insight into what
| is already a well-known effect. This is already incorporated into
| a treatment of mental illness. Not as widely as it should be, but
| it is there.
|
| Nevertheless, this study gives me hope for the future, because
| someone is looking in what I believe the right direction. It's
| the one more step in a long series of steps into figuring why
| this is the case.
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| "hope for the future" is it's own separate mental health data
| point as well.
| mansoon wrote:
| ta988 wrote:
| The really good ad tracking system of HN that is listening to
| your deeper thoughts. Can't fight it.
| mansoon wrote:
| Hacker news is an extraordinary joint cognitive system. The
| recent increase in noise clarifies the signal that
| propagates.
| dboreham wrote:
| HN Birthday Paradox?
| mansoon wrote:
| For fuck's sake.
|
| Today is a good day to have understood the necessity of
| coincidence. =)
| amelius wrote:
| My problem is the reverse. When my brain is working, my jaw
| tenses up, and my breathing becomes shallow. I tried everything,
| but it seems impossible to decouple mental performance from these
| physical issues. I wish that there was some kind of bio-feedback
| device that could warn me when I push myself too far.
| retrac wrote:
| There are some biofeedback devices re: jaw clenching/teeth
| grinding in particular. Both muscle innervation sensors
| (applied to the skin) and pressure sensors (held between the
| teeth) out there. Not sure if they're actually effective but
| one small study with people who grind their teeth while asleep
| found significant reductions from a mouthguard that vibrated
| when a pressure threshold was exceeded:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4389117/
| themodelplumber wrote:
| I used a biofeedback device for measuring jaw tension among
| other things a long time ago...it was really helpful for
| training the body in how to naturally relax. Not sure it would
| solve the problem for someone entirely but it's worth a try.
|
| For pushing too far I use a timer system based around
| supporting the work characteristics, and it's been really
| helpful too. Hopefully you find something that helps.
| amelius wrote:
| Thanks, could you provide a link to the system that you used?
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Sure, it's Module #4 here:
|
| https://www.friendlyskies.net/maybe/the-balance-first-
| approa...
|
| --Marc
| amelius wrote:
| Ok, thanks! Do you also have a link for the bio-feedback
| device that you used?
| themodelplumber wrote:
| I wish I did, it was at a university biofeedback lab in
| about 2000. I'd guess anybody who works with biofeedback
| devices could recommend something better by now anyway.
| amelius wrote:
| Heh, ok, yes I expected you to say something like this. I
| had biofeedback therapy as a child (also jaw/bruxism
| related), and those devices looked archaic, even for that
| time :)
| themodelplumber wrote:
| Speaking of which...What about a retro-computing project
| in QBasic?
|
| https://archive.org/details/ElectronicsNow199612/page/n36
| /mo...
| User23 wrote:
| Try consciously resting your tongue against the roof of your
| mouth and breathing through your nose.
| neitsab wrote:
| Many commenters here have already noted the strong connection
| between this study findings and common Buddhist-/mindfullness-
| based meditation instructions.
|
| To me it was the concept of _interoception_ which produced the
| stronger callback to Buddhist themes, in this case to the notion
| of "sixth inner sense" commonly referred to in Pali Buddhist
| scriptures:
|
| > In Buddhism, "mind" denotes an internal sense organ which
| interacts with sense objects that include sense impressions,
| feelings, perceptions and volition.[0]
|
| I have always found this sixth sense organ a welcome -and even
| necessary- addition to the regular Western list of senses, as
| without it it is impossible to account for the bountiful nature
| of our inner experiences (and our perception of them, which
| evidently foregoes the five other physical senses). I am really
| glad to see we have a somewhat established (if not very well-
| known) comparative concept to use in the scientific framework of
| understanding.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80yatana
|
| edit: typo and missing word
| qiskit wrote:
| Not only buddhism. The romans gave us "mens sana in corpore
| sano" - sound body, sound mind.
|
| It seems like ancient peoples around the world associated
| healthy body with a healthy mind.
| lazide wrote:
| And healthy minds tend towards keeping their bodies healthy
| too.
|
| The issue is that it doesn't pay to ensure everyone is
| mentally healthy - far from it, it many cases it pays the
| bills exacerbating other peoples mental illnesses :(
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