[HN Gopher] Names of Canada truck convoy donors leaked after rep...
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Names of Canada truck convoy donors leaked after reported hack
Author : arkadiyt
Score : 297 points
Date : 2022-02-14 16:40 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| tedivm wrote:
| I went through the leaks last night and they're wrong about the
| IP addresses. All of the IP addresses listed are internal to the
| service itself- they recorded the IP addresses of their own nodes
| (or possibly cloudflare edge nodes), and they're all from one of
| a few ranges or localhost.
|
| The email addresses, names, country and zip codes all seem legit
| though.
| throwawaysleep wrote:
| cloudedcordial wrote:
| Wayback machine has taken snapshots of GoSendGone including
| the csv.
| brigandish wrote:
| What is GoSendGone?
| adamrezich wrote:
| GiveSendGo is a crowdfunding site like GoFundMe, made by
| Andrew Torba and the others behind Gab etc., as an
| alternative to GoFundMe given that GoFundMe is
| politically picky about which kinds of causes it allows
| donations for and which kinds of causes they redistribute
| the raised funds of to other charities instead.
|
| it could have a better name imo
| renewiltord wrote:
| GiveSendGo is what he meant. All these guys are mixed up
| about the name.
| frogpelt wrote:
| A distant cousin to GiveSendGo, apparently.
| cloudedcordial wrote:
| Sorry I meant GiveSendGone. Butter fingers!
| [deleted]
| charcircuit wrote:
| A crowdfunding site like gofundme
| monkeybutton wrote:
| There was a moment in time that the hacked site redirected to
| a page with the data and an embedded YouTube video.
| tedivm wrote:
| I am not the hacker- someone posted it online and I
| downloaded it. I heard about the whole thing on twitter.
| tanseydavid wrote:
| The IP addresses in the leak appear to show all of them (or at
| least most) as being Class B private addresses (172.16. _._ )
| quartesixte wrote:
| Irrelevant to my actual opinion of the whole protest, I find
| this fact hilarious.
|
| And somewhat sad...true tech literacy will never be reached I
| guess.
| manquer wrote:
| I don't think it is literacy really, just sloppy
| engineering process.
|
| Typically this happens when someone develops a service
| which is front facing without any proxy/ LB before it, goes
| to production and gets validated IP and other logs are
| great everyone moves on . Few months/years down to scale
| their service or improve security a LB or CF type proxy is
| put in front and no bothers to check the IP logs are still
| valid because no one actually uses IP for anything in their
| tooling( like filters/blocks or geomapping etc) so won't
| notice the break at all.
| mynameisvlad wrote:
| I mean, I wouldn't expect the general public to have "true
| tech literacy" to the point of knowing the difference
| between IP classes. That seems above and beyond "literacy"
| to me. Hell, I wouldn't even expect the general public to
| know what an IP address is; their exposure to them is both
| so minimal and so shallow that it doesn't make sense to
| learn the intricacies of.
|
| For instance, I consider myself to be fairly techy. I run
| multiple VLANs on the class A space on my home network, so
| I have decent exposure to IP addresses. And I routinely
| struggle with CIDR notation to the point where I basically
| have to use a converter each time because I can't remember
| which bits correspond to which ranges.
|
| If I have this much trouble, I wouldn't expect the general
| public to even _know_ what any of what I said is.
| kepler1 wrote:
| Where does one find the leaked list?
| amadeusw wrote:
| I'd like to know as well. The Distributed Denial of Secrets
| [1] page states that "Due to PII in the dataset, the dataset
| is only being offered to journalists and researchers."
|
| [1] - https://ddosecrets.com/wiki/GiveSendGo_Freedom_Convoy_d
| onor_...
| mastazi wrote:
| As a fully vaccinated person who thinks that people who disagree
| with me should have rights, and who values freedom more than
| wealth, I'm proud that my name is on that list.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| For those of you still on the fence or just learning about this,
| here's a rundown of the fine people in charge of this travesty of
| a "protest":
|
| https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/who-is-who-a-guide-to-the-majo...
|
| PAT KING: Pat King is a far-right protester who has said in
| videos posted to social media that there may be future plans to
| target politicians' homes and that "the only way that this is
| going to be solved is with bullets." He has called for the arrest
| of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Ottawa Police Chief Peter
| Sloly.
|
| King has gained attention online for a video posted to Twitter in
| which he decries the "depopulation" of white people, as well as
| another video posted in 2019 in which he makes racist remarks
| about Jewish, Muslim, and Chinese people.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| I genuinely wonder how many of the people protesting actually
| know who this person is or what he believes (if the parent
| comment even accurately represents him--I really have no idea).
| Reminds me of how people would criticize BLM protests on the
| basis that some people in the BLM org had ties to communism--a
| very weak criticism considering how many _better_ criticisms
| existed and how few of the protesters had related views. The
| parent comment seems like a similarly weak indictment of the
| protesters.
| AlimJaffer wrote:
| King is literally a founding convoy organizer who calls the
| shots and has a massive following and influence on the convoy
| members. His videos get 100's of thousands of views and he
| influenced the convoy 'manifesto' that they created to try to
| overthrow the government. Your comment shows you have done
| zero research into the matter. He's a vocal white supremacist
| who believes Islam has taken over the government to kill
| white bloodlines. You can find many videos of him saying this
| to be broadcast to his following.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| I don't doubt he's crazy, I _do_ doubt his crazier views
| represent those of protesters more broadly. But in
| whichever case, the administration could take the wind out
| of his sails by yielding--no need to organize under King if
| the goal is accomplished. If the government didn 't take an
| authoritarian stance in the first place, King would be
| marginal.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| You think pointing out that there's far-right extremists
| managing this whole show is a "weak indictment" when one of
| the stated goals of said protest is to overturn a
| democratically elected government?
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| It's a strong indictment to the extent that this person
| actually "runs the show" and his views about race represent
| the majority of protesters' views. Which is to say "yes,
| it's a weak indictment".
| talentedcoin wrote:
| Idk. At best you are defending the idea that the majority
| of protestors are pawns in someone else's game, no? Just
| because someone doesn't know they're being used doesn't
| mean they aren't being used ...
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| If that's the case then you're screwed either way because
| Trudeau's racism is thoroughly documented. :) But
| thankfully (much to the chagrin of the media and others)
| these protests have centered narrowly around the bodily
| autonomy issue rather than unsavory race views, and the
| likelihood of the protests transforming into racial
| protests is small. Further still, the establishment could
| completely take the wind out of the alleged protest
| leaders' sails by acquiescing (no need to organize under
| these guys if the need to organize goes away altogether).
| talentedcoin wrote:
| If you think Trudeau wearing blackface (also bad, obvs)
| is comparable to the occupation of the capital of Canada,
| I wish you well -- we really have nothing to discuss
| here.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| I _don 't_ think they're comparable. Peaceful protests
| are a _good thing_ and blackface (by an authoritarian no
| less) is a _bad thing_.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| Yeah, seems super peaceful:
|
| https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/mobile/ottawa-police-report-a-
| nigh...
|
| Please, spare me, and spare the rest of us, your poorly
| informed takes.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| From your own link:
|
| > Residents complained about another night of illegal
| fireworks, loud music and horn honking Saturday night and
| Sunday morning.
|
| Loud music? Say it isn't so!
| talentedcoin wrote:
| Also from my link:
|
| "Overnight, demonstrators exhibited extremely disruptive
| and unlawful behaviour, which presented risks to public
| safety and unacceptable distress for Ottawa residents,"
| said police.
|
| Go ahead, keep digging. I can do this all day.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| Oof. That's how the police characterized "illegal
| fireworks, loud music and horn honking". In fairness to
| you, your quote from the police was at the tippy top of
| your article and mine was _multiple paragraphs_ later.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| Well, if I'm being charitable, that's exactly the
| question mark here.
|
| There are reports of intimidation and other bad
| behaviour, but there are also a whole bunch of other
| people just enjoying the party atmosphere. I think both
| narratives can be true. To be clear, some of the honking
| has been going on 18+ hours a day, which is bad, but
| there are suggestions of worse things under the surface.
| This happened a couple weeks ago, for instance:
|
| https://globalnews.ca/news/8581568/ottawa-shepherds-of-
| good-...
|
| My probably subjective impression is that wandering
| around this protest is a bit of a choose-your-own-
| adventure. There's friendly folks, but there are
| troublemakers around too, and unfortunately the
| troublemakers seem to be more senior in the planning
| process ...
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| I think your standard for "peaceful protest" seems
| unreasonable. How many large scale protests have there
| been which had zero _reports_ of "bad behavior"? Can you
| name any protest in the last 5 years whose scale was
| comparable to these protests which had no reports of bad
| behavior?
| liminal wrote:
| The lack of effective policing is what's most disappointing to
| me. The Ottawa police have completely failed to enforce any
| boundaries. This further erodes public trust in the police and
| public safety in general. In that sense the protestors are
| winning.
| rablackburn wrote:
| What is effective policing meant to look like in circumstances
| like this?
|
| This is an unarguably large amount of people practicing civil
| disobedience. How many police does Ottawa have on hand to deal
| with it?
|
| All the tactics I can think of to truly control a crowd this
| size are rather...harsh (lines of riot police and water cannons
| etc). So if you don't take that option you're left with
| tactical deployment of officers.
|
| Seems like a hard problem to get right. Just because they're
| not perfect doesn't mean they're not effective.
|
| The fact that they're seizing weapons caches before any
| particularly heinous outbreaks of violence makes me think
| they're prioritising their resources somewhat effectively?
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| Police will not attack their own citizens. Sometimes it
| happens...shocker. Usually when the government is out of line
| with the sentiment of the people. So now they will try to send
| in the RCMP to the dirty work. This is a tactic often used by
| dictators. Send in out of town people to suppress the locals.
| sebow wrote:
| That's a nice way of spelling doxxing.Remember "it's bad only
| when the other side does it".
| barbazoo wrote:
| Publishing the already publicly available data isn't doxxing
| yet.
|
| This is necessary information the public needs to see to start
| estimating how much of that money is coming from foreign donors
| so we can question why and deal with it accordingly.
| totony wrote:
| I'm eager to see passwords leaks as well as all the other
| personal info leaks for the last decade be exposed then.
| Remember the Desjardins leak a few years ago? Is that OK?
|
| I fail to see why a leak is considered "public information"
| to you or why specifically it's ok for this case but not
| equifax, desjardins and all the others.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| Didn't seem necessary when it was the Hunter laptop, or the
| Ashley diary, or the DNC emails.
|
| Those things were ignored in the MSM as "illegally obtained"
| and "disinformation" and banned from discussion on social
| sites "due to hacking".
|
| But this civilian donor list is "necessary information" and
| the media is licking their chops wanting to broadcast it for
| their brown shirt goons. Disgusting.
| AlimJaffer wrote:
| As a Canadian I humbly request Americans stay out of our
| politics, particularly when it comes to influencing them via
| monetary donations. Get your own house in order, don't encourage
| wannabe insurrectionists who had a manifesto to take over the
| government in blatantly undemocratic ways.
| durovo wrote:
| That is ironic coming from a Canadian. Just recently, a lot of
| money poured in from Canada to support the farmer protest in
| India. Here is one example:
| https://www.gofundme.com/f/donatetofarmers
|
| PS: Not that I support the current Canadian protests.
|
| Edit: Some other examples: 1.
| https://globalnews.ca/news/7680005/farmers-india-protest-bil...
| 2. https://thewire.in/rights/justin-trudeau-farmers-protest-
| ind... 3. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-
| columbia/farmers-prot...
| sudosysgen wrote:
| As a matter of principle I agree with you, however there is
| also a large Indian diaspora in Canada and it's quite
| possible most of that money was donated by Indians; it
| doesn't make a lot of sense for a Canadian living in the US
| to donate the money from a US account though.
| nonamechicken wrote:
| I agree on the Indians in Canada donating part. But
| Canadian PM should have stayed away from making comments
| supporting the protest.
|
| https://thewire.in/rights/justin-trudeau-farmers-protest-
| ind...
|
| Especially since some of these protestors are rumored to
| have backing of Khalistani separatists who have blown up an
| Air India flight in the past killing 329 people.
|
| https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/khalistan-terror-
| group...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182
| nonamechicken wrote:
| As an Indian, this double standard was the most amusing thing
| for me in all these. When farmers in India protested,
| Canadian PM himself supported them (probably because he
| wanted the Sikh community votes?).
|
| Indian government only used police officers with batons and
| were sometimes chased away by the protesters.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1qFKUtfvMc
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7so5TwIMyM
|
| Then yesterday I saw videos of heavily armed RCMP officers
| deployed to remove some of the blockades!
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| > particularly when it comes to influencing them via monetary
| donations
|
| Were any of the GiveSendGo funds marked towards supporting
| political candidates?
| eindiran wrote:
| Looking through your recent comments, there are multiple
| examples of you commenting on American politics and monetary
| policy...
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Sure. Did they give money to US politicians?
| hunterb123 wrote:
| As an American I'd love if we all stayed out of each other's
| politics, but that's not how the world works, sorry.
|
| That being said, a lot of Americans want freedom everywhere,
| especially for their neighbors in the north, what's so hard to
| understand about that?
|
| Btw, your insurrection claim is played out and laughable, there
| is no violence, use words properly.
|
| I look forward to seeing your comments about our 2022 midterm
| elections or our 2024 presidential election.
| 0xy wrote:
| The majority of the donors were Canadian, so presumably you're
| in favor of the multiple millions of dollars flowing to the
| group from Canadians?
| sudosysgen wrote:
| You can look at the data - there were around twice as many
| foreign donations than Canadian ones.
| yesco wrote:
| While I have not donated anything to this cause, as an American
| I fundamentally reject your humble request.
|
| The reality is that while in this moment you are against it,
| the second a protest is in your favor, I'm willing to bet you
| will turn a blind eye. Nearly all international charities are a
| form of foreign influence whether you agree with them or not,
| and your politicians are the ones happy to allow these
| charities to operate within your nation.
|
| If I support a cause within Canada and truly wish it the best,
| then I will donate to it, just like everyone else in the world
| already is. I do not support hypocrisy.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-trump-clinton-u-s-el...
| cf100clunk wrote:
| The U.S.A., and previously Great Britain, has always had an
| enormous political and economic influence on Canada, for better
| or for worse. Today we are being noticed in the U.S.A. because
| we're struggling. Having worked and traveled internationally
| for many years it is my opinion that at most times we, as a
| sovereign nation, rarely even occur to American minds. Such is
| life, and I'm okay with it.
| olivermarks wrote:
| Bud wrote:
| Notorious? And the best source for this is a 52-year-old
| article from a student newspaper in the US, with no listed
| author or sourcing?
|
| The linked article also reveals that the separatists in
| question were kidnapping multiple people at the time. This
| seems like ample reason to arrest a bunch of them.
| olivermarks wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Trudeau#October_Crisis
| Easy to find more details of this historical event elsewhere.
| jeromegv wrote:
| I mean if you are Canadian or Quebecois, there is no denying
| that Trudeau father is famous for having invoqued martial law
| in Quebec. This is something everyone from Quebec knows and
| the merit of this measure has been debated and discussed for
| decades in various movies, books, news articles. I don't know
| why you are debating the source, this seems irrelevant.
| Bud wrote:
| I'm not Canadian and the reason I asked for a better source
| is not at all irrelevant. Those who are not Canadian might
| want a higher-quality source to learn about the topic in
| question. It is, obviously completely irrelevant whether
| "everyone in Quebec knows" this. Most users here, to put it
| rather mildly, are not from Quebec.
| bawolff wrote:
| You could just look it up on wikipedia.
|
| The october crisis is one of the most important events in
| modern canadian political history.
| gxt wrote:
| I am a Quebecker and yes he is notorious for that. Here's a
| 51 year old video from CBC, Canada's state media.
| https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1241195075951
|
| "The state must use every means at its disposal" ... "Just
| watch me"
| radford-neal wrote:
| The word "notorious" is appropriate for those who think
| Pierre Trudeau's invocation of the War Measures Act was
| wrong. And that is a widespread (but far from universal)
| opinion among Canadians. Note that one reason for invoking
| the War Measures Act was that it allowed for the arrest of
| people for whom there was no good evidence of criminal
| conduct.
| beerandt wrote:
| There's no need for ideological alignment to be notorious.
| Something being controversial is more than enough.
| hammock wrote:
| dang wrote:
| Please don't cross into personal attack. You can make your
| substantive points without that.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| hammock wrote:
| Can I edit it?
| peripote wrote:
| The question isn't about arresting them. Nobody disagrees
| that the FLQ activists who committed violence should have
| been arrested. They even murdered a provincial cabinet
| minister.
|
| What is disputed is whether putting the entire country under
| martial law, canceling all civil liberties and sending the
| army into the streets, as Trudeau did, was an appropriate
| response.
|
| It's impossible to discuss this objectively at the moment,
| because everyone will simply line up with whatever position
| supports their side in the current contro, but I think it's
| safe to say that up until this moment the majority view
| (certainly among the educated class) has been that this was
| an authoritarian excess and a bad precedent, and that the
| criminal justice system would have sufficed to deal with the
| threat.
|
| It is one of the most famous episodes in Canadian history,
| and remains debated, so the word notorious is accurate.
| bawolff wrote:
| > sending the army into the streets, as Trudeau did, was an
| appropriate response.
|
| the army part was the premier of quebec not trudeau.
| Policing is a provincial responsibility. Having the armty
| come in was a provincial call that was unrelated to the war
| measures act.
| [deleted]
| DFHippie wrote:
| It's also dark that people respond to being governed by someone
| they didn't vote for by blockading their country's economy. And
| that this action is funded by people in other countries who
| never had a vote in the first place.
| azangru wrote:
| > And that this action is funded by people in other countries
| who never had a vote in the first place.
|
| I am somewhat puzzled by this take. Consider how much people
| donate to people in other countries that they've never met
| and in which they've never voted. Consider how much people
| donate to content creators that they want to support
| (youtube, substack, etc.). Consider that there are currently
| several fundraisers on GoFundMe for the people of Ukraine,
| who are afraid of an invasion -- also, presumably, from
| people from other countries. Why are the donations to the
| truckers by the people who are sympathetic to their cause any
| darker?
| [deleted]
| soupbowl wrote:
| Hello,
|
| I am a Canadian and my government has allowed someone we did
| not vote in to shutdown our economy and restrict me. If the
| government can do that, we the citizens can do it.
|
| My province has increased covid rules and keeps pushing
| opening up for vaccinated down the road. While everywhere
| else is easing off. We can't even go to a gym to work out and
| our hospitals are way under normal capacity.
|
| I am not pro outsiders funding our citizens to do these
| things but at this point I'll take the help I can get.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| So you're saying that your country, Canada, yearns for
| freedom?
| [deleted]
| olivermarks wrote:
| https://nymag.com/strategist/article/where-to-donate-for-
| bla... interesting how the media will lavishly solicit
| donations for divide and rule activities but not report or
| comment on any actions versus those in actual power
| defaultname wrote:
| Alternately, yet another right wing "alternative" site had poor
| security practices and got exploited. They had S3 buckets full
| of customer data sitting open for some time, and they stayed
| accessible days after it was widely known.
| keneda7 wrote:
| So just so I am no misunderstanding you here.
|
| You are implying if your site or company has poor security
| practices its okay for hackers to steal data?
| Arrath wrote:
| Time and again these sites have demonstrated their disdain
| for security, and it bites them yet again. Anyone making the
| jump to conspiracy or state sponsored hacking is making quite
| a logical leap, imo.
| rvz wrote:
| Exactly. Just like GoDaddy and Twitch had poor security with
| everything that they stored on their servers from PII and
| source code getting breached and leaked by hackers right? [0]
| [1] I'm sure everyone was happy with that hackivism and those
| guys should have gotten their security right the first time.
| /s
|
| Can't wait for someone else to say, _' Security is so hard'_
| but also cheer on hackers that breach sites they don't like.
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28770590
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29306554
| DoctorOW wrote:
| Not sure about the details of the Twitch hack, but yeah the
| GoDaddy setup was pretty insecure.
|
| > Can't wait for someone else to say, 'Security is so hard'
| but also cheer on hackers that breach sites they don't
| like.
|
| The top comment of the GoDaddy post you linked literally
| says "This could have been an easily avoidable data
| breach."
| defaultname wrote:
| I don't think whataboutism is productive. Nor did I "cheer
| on" anything: It sucks when people are exploited by
| incompetent actors.
|
| We've repeatedly watched as "the mainstream restricts us so
| we'll do our own thing" sites are built with absolutely
| rudimentary security faults. They're rushed, have a very
| eager and non-discretionary userbase that is chomping at
| the bit. They usually have compromised motivations.
|
| And then they fall. It has become sadly predictable.
| rvz wrote:
| > I don't think whataboutism is productive.
|
| Except that this isn't _' whataboutism'_ since I already
| agreed with what you said, that GiveSendGo definitely had
| poor security whilst also not supporting or justifying
| with hacktivists, criminals or script-kiddies attacking
| _anyone 's_ site.
|
| > Nor did I "cheer on" anything:
|
| Never directly accused you for cheering: I'm only
| predicting the obvious.
|
| If one is supporting hackers breaching other peoples
| websites they don't like, whilst defending another with
| that _phrase_ which applies to everyone as an excuse for
| it, then you would fall under that category.
|
| > And then they fall. It has become sadly predictable.
|
| Yes, it's very predictable. Unfortunately it can happen
| to anyone. Whether if you are big like GoDaddy or small
| like GiveSendGo. These hackers are not on anyone's side.
| klyrs wrote:
| The police handled these protesters with kid gloves compared to
| how they treat pipeline protesters, all under Trudeau junior.
| hourislate wrote:
| B.S.
|
| The Government did nothing when the Natives blocked the rail
| links causing harm to CN/CP and Canadians across the country.
| Your attempt to obfuscate the facts makes you unqualified to
| comment and you should refrain from participating in this
| conversation.
| klyrs wrote:
| Request for self-censorship duly noted and denied. Read up
| on Fairy Creek, for example.
| olivermarks wrote:
| So far and only because they didn't have strategies in place
| to deal with events, which they will ultimately frame as a
| 'insurrection', make examples of people, shame and doxx them
| as a dark warning to others to to try this in future
| klyrs wrote:
| What do you mean, they don't have strategies? Billy clubs,
| steel toe boots, rubber bullets, pepper spray and tear gas
| on day 1. Haul the truckers out of their cabs, flanked by
| SWAT troopers with assault weapons. Drag 'em out by their
| hair. They've got tons of practice doing that already. Why
| did the police wait for an injunction this time? Why did it
| take weeks to secure that injunction?
| olivermarks wrote:
| Quite a few of the goon quad types you describe are more
| interested in their personal freedom than beating people
| up it seems based on watching the Glasnost-esque live
| feeds from Ottawa etc
|
| This has been quite a problem for the ruling classes
| klyrs wrote:
| The police are highly Conservative. When "the people"
| represent points to the left of the government, the
| police state is activated. When "the people" represent
| points to the right of the government, it's policing by
| consent. It's not _always_ a problem for the ruling
| class. Folks on the right complain about being
| persecuted, seemingly oblivious to how they 've supported
| the persecution of their political enemies throughout
| history. It's a bit tedious.
|
| And, for what it's worth, I support the rights of the
| truckers to protest. When they're blocking highways, it's
| civil disobedience, and they're subject to arrest. I just
| wish other protesters were treated so well.
| advisedwang wrote:
| I'd be very interest in the distribution of donations? E.g. are
| there big donors or is the money mostly from small donors.
| ineedasername wrote:
| From another comment it looks like the IP addresses are not
| accurate. Otherwise, it would have been interesting to see if
| many small donations were coming from the same IP.
| monkeybutton wrote:
| The median is $50 and the 95th percentile is $200 so it's
| mostly small donations with a few (22) donations over 5K. Plus
| the one 215K whale.
| advisedwang wrote:
| What's the total number of donors / amount of donation?
| Apologies for not doing the research myself, I'm at work.
| monkeybutton wrote:
| 8.4M in donations plus another 0.57M going to GSG (not a
| bad racket eh?) over 92k rows. I'm using the word rows
| intentionally here because I can't make any claim about the
| number of actual individuals.
| advisedwang wrote:
| Thank you for all this great data! So the "big" donors
| (>=5k) are something like 4%. Truely does seem fairly
| grassroots-ish, assuming no shenanigans with the records
| people thing.
| monkeybutton wrote:
| If you believe the donation display names in the file,
| you'd think this was all an inside job by Mayor Jim
| Watson, police chief Peter Sloly, Hunter Biden, Kamala
| Harris, etc. etc. ;)
|
| The comments are.. special. Lots of Christian religious
| stuff which makes sense given the site's background. As
| someone who is very much not religious, this makes me
| just as uncomfortable.
| [deleted]
| sudosysgen wrote:
| I know a few people who made repeated donations, so you can't
| necessarily assume each donation is an individual.
| thinkcontext wrote:
| I'm confused, is only the truckers convoy data available or was
| all of GiveSendGo's database compromised? GiveSendGo hosts
| fundraising campaigns for the full constellation of alt-right,
| Proud Boy, J6, etc groups that don't get hosted by GoFundMe.
| Bud wrote:
| Reuters is behind a paywall (if you are over their article limit
| due to being a news addict); could we get a non-paywalled link
| for this please?
| gpm wrote:
| It's not actually being a paywall - it's behind a login wall -
| but they don't ask for money (or a credit card) and seem to
| actually mean unlimited access.
| dang wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30334289 was originally a
| reply to this but I detached it and pinned it to the top of the
| thread, which we sometimes do for archive links.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Jesus Christ, you can't just leave your S3 bucket open, guys.
| There are lots of warnings from Amazon before you end up doing
| that, and it's so easy to not do (pre-signed URLs if you really
| need a URL).
|
| I guess it's rather interesting to see the reactions from the
| media and HN comments. Sort of reflects the relative politics:
|
| - Patreon leak. Media didn't go download everyone's data and
| threaten to get info. HN blamed Patreon.
|
| - GiveSendGo (a terrible name imho). Media downloads the data and
| threatens to get info. HN blames the hacker.
|
| I think I'm going to choose consistency here. I hate these data
| breach guys, but it's sort of like I hate mosquitos. If I could
| cleanse the Earth of them I would, but I can't. So I accept they
| are just a natural constraint. But if your hotel has mosquitos
| I'm going to blame your hotel.
|
| This 'hack' is dealing with amateurish security. If you're in a
| controversial place you've got to do better. GiveSendGo has a lot
| of work to do (unless this was something weird this specific
| campaign did). And their security position on this was terrible:
| https://techcrunch.com/2022/02/08/ottawa-trucker-freedom-con...
|
| > _TechCrunch contacted GiveSendGo co-founder Jacob Wells with
| details of the exposed bucket on Tuesday. The bucket was secured
| a short time later, but Wells did not respond to our questions,
| including if GiveSendGo planned on informing about the security
| lapse those whose information was exposed._
| ratsmack wrote:
| The question I have is, did GiveSendGo concede that _they_ left
| the bucket open, and if not, how was it opened.
| [deleted]
| wmil wrote:
| Patreon is a bay area startup with loads of VC funding. Their
| engineering team is well paid and people hold them to a higher
| standard.
|
| GiveSendGo has amateurish security because it's an amateurish
| company.
|
| Think of it this way. Patreon's security failure made bay area
| techies look bad because it turned out that you couldn't just
| hire a bunch of them and expect things to go well. GiveSendGo's
| security failure makes bay area techies look bad because it
| turns out cloud security isn't as easy as they'd like to think.
|
| Also taking down small sites that provide services to the out
| group of the bay area is unacceptable in a democracy. It
| invites legislative reprisal.
| [deleted]
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Thank you for writing a comment that is actually about opsec
| and technology, unlike so many others in this thread.
| dev_by_day wrote:
| wayback machine FTW
| https://web.archive.org/web/20220214093323/https://www.reute...
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| I'd be curious to see foreign donors.
| fortran77 wrote:
| There was an excellent article about who these truckers are here:
| https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/what-the-truckers-want?r=6p...
| They're not exactly the group of people one might expect.
|
| I miss the days when progressives were on the side of the working
| man and woman, and long-haul truckers were considered folk
| heroes.
| negzero7 wrote:
| Whether you're for or against the truckers, the timing of this
| seems to point to state sponsored hacking, no?. Of course it
| could just be that GiveSendGo became a target due to the recent
| press, but this seems awfully convenient for the Canadian gov to
| discourage support.
| _moof wrote:
| "When you hear hoofbeats behind you, it's probably centaurs."
| bawolff wrote:
| The protest is super unpopular in canada. It could just as
| easily be a random canadian citizen who is pissed about the
| protest and wants to prove that the protest is not grass roots
| but foreign meddling.
| olivermarks wrote:
| Unpopular with wealthier people who are inconvenienced, very
| popular amongst what the media like to call 'populists' - ie
| the people who deliver the rich people's chattels
| bawolff wrote:
| Wealthy people are fine. They are mostly screwing over the
| working class.
| iso1631 wrote:
| Maru polls show very little difference between income
| levels. Of all the different demographics, the one with the
| most support for the goals and means of the truckers is
| Alberta residents, where about 1 in 3 support them and
| their means, and 1 in 2 don't support them at all
| mrtesthah wrote:
| _" The People are on our side!" "Everyone against us is
| against The People!"_
|
| Hmm, where I have heard that rhetoric before...
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| This one? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_de_lib%C3
| %A9ration_du_...
|
| The claim can be proven or disproven with elections. But
| I think that Trudeau would win rather easily pitted
| against this extremist, apparently foreign funded fringe.
|
| Even Canada's conservatives don't want to be associated
| with them anymore.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| Conservatives are tabling a motion for a vote on removal
| of restrictions today.
|
| They've just performatively asked truckers to leave, so
| that they can always point to that later in their
| election campaign. Why would they want them to leave?they
| don't.
| adra wrote:
| I'm not a conservative mind you, but if your goal is to
| eventually get elected, you probably want to win on
| topics that will actually gain you votes vs. those that
| take them away.
|
| This is a wedge issue, and as such they're casting their
| votes to alienate a huge (likely majority) of voters away
| from your platform before the leader has even been
| selected.
|
| Secondly, this protest has been a huge news vacuum
| attracting non-stop coverage. This is bad for a party
| that needs to drum up any support for a leadership race
| to carry them more seats in the next election. By the
| time this plays out, the conservatives could be half way
| through their election and most Canadians may not even
| know the candidates.
| mywittyname wrote:
| We all know that elected officials rarely get elected
| based on what they've actually done. They get elected by
| parroting the empty promises their party bosses tell them
| too.
|
| Plus, politicians who do vote against their constituents'
| wishes can run in a district that's more friendly to that
| vote.
| acdha wrote:
| Do you have a citation on that claim? For example, it seems
| like they're on the wrong side by a large factor on things
| like vaccine mandates:
|
| https://theconversation.com/majority-of-canadians-
| disagree-w...
|
| It also seems unlikely that, say, the workers at factories
| who were prevented from working are rich people...
| armagon wrote:
| https://angusreid.org/omicron-incidence-restrictions/ -
| scroll down to "Part Four: What now? Majority want
| restrictions to end"; 54% of Canadians want the mandates
| to end.
|
| OTOH, this poll https://abacusdata.ca/ottawa-survey-
| freedom-convoy/ suggests that about 22% of Canadians
| support the convoy and 67% don't.
| acdha wrote:
| That's about what I expected -- nothing warranting "very
| popular", and most of the gap shown is going to come down
| to what percentage of even people who do want some or all
| public health measures suspended approve of doing so
| outside of the democratic process.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| Angus is far more reputable.
|
| Abacus never fails to find support for government
| approved narratives.
| synthos wrote:
| It's all down to how a poll accurately frames a question:
|
| Do people like restrictions? No, nobody likes
| restrictions. Do people like restrictions that save
| lives? Still don't 'like' them but believe sacrifice is
| necessary for the greater good.
|
| Do I support people's right to protest? Yes, but... You
| can't honk all night Block major infrastructure for days
| Desecrate war monuments Flood 911 with fake calls
|
| Etc.
| suckmore wrote:
| To play devil's advocate, and provide another
| (intentionally) biased framing:
|
| Do people want to continue with restrictions that have
| pushed the opioid epidemic to a new high [1]. Pushed
| mental health in youth to 'completely unsustainable'
| levels [2]. Stolen normal development/socialization from
| children & young adults using restrictions that were not
| always clearly evidence based [3]. And, all this
| considering the current outlook of the virus is far more
| positive than it once was.
|
| The Angus Reid poll phrased their question like this, for
| anyone interested:
|
| >It's time to end restrictions and let people self-
| isolate if they're at risk.
|
| [1]: https://bc.ctvnews.ca/deadliest-year-in-b-c-s-
| opioid-crisis-...
|
| [2]: https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-
| news/completely-unsusta...
|
| [3]:
| https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/01/kids-
| masks...
| gruez wrote:
| >Do I support people's right to protest? Yes, but... You
| can't honk all night Block major infrastructure for days
| Desecrate war monuments Flood 911 with fake calls
|
| I suspect how much people support "people's right to
| protest" is directly proportional to how much they
| support The Cause. If they don't support The Cause, they
| want protesters to be as out of the way as possible (ie.
| "free speech zones"). If they do support The Cause,
| anything up to and including violence/vandalism is
| justified, because a few causalities would be canceled
| out by all the positive effects that The Cause would
| bring.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| Or even more specifically: Do I like restrictions? No. Do
| I want restrictions to end? Yes. Do I want all
| restrictions to end now? No. Do I want any restrictions
| to end now? Maybe.
| nathanaldensr wrote:
| If protests were popular they wouldn't be protests.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| coolso wrote:
| > The protest is super unpopular in canada.
|
| Given the unfair media coverage, is it any wonder?
|
| There seems to be, including in your own post, a lot of ad
| hominem attacks ("one person had a confederate flag! some
| people in the US support the cause too! this means it's
| totally evil") rather than addressing the human rights the
| protestors are fighting for, and it's a shame. But it's no
| surprise given the opposite media coverage for the opposite
| type of protest (violent riots) two summers ago.
| amscanne wrote:
| The polls I've seen had ~half of Canadians sympathetic to the
| protests [1], and about 20% strongly supporting. It's
| completely true that it could be one highly motivated
| individual, but that has nothing to do with your first
| assertion (which is a mixed truth at best). I think that the
| government's claim (echoed by many media outlets) that this
| is purely a fringe movement has added fuel to the fire.
|
| [1] https://globalnews.ca/news/8610727/ipsos-poll-trucker-
| convoy...
| bawolff wrote:
| I see your poll and raise you this one
| https://toronto.citynews.ca/2022/02/12/two-thirds-of-
| canadia... where 2/3 of canada don't just dislike the
| protest but hate them so much they want the military to
| deal with them.
| [deleted]
| inter_netuser wrote:
| Different demographics. The support is very high in
| younger cohorts, and elderly want them killed.
|
| Polarized in every way imaginable.
| iso1631 wrote:
| The polls roughly match. About 1 in 4 support the goals
| and methods, 1 in 4 support the goals but not the
| methods, and 2 in 4 don't support the goals or methods
|
| Tables at
|
| https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a17333eb0786935ac
| 112...
|
| 24% of 18-34 and 34-55 support the truckers and what they
| are doing
|
| 27%/26% support them but not the way they are doing it
|
| 49%/50% think they are completely wrong and need to be
| stopped regardless
|
| There's no real difference between young and middle age,
| although over 55s skew significantly to "stop them". Not
| much difference on income, but educational attainment
| shows significant skew, with university educated far less
| likely to support the truckers
| monkeybutton wrote:
| Schrodinger's Canadian: Simultaneously supports the
| occupation and wants to see it crushed.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Maybe they just enjoy a good martyrdom.
| monkeybutton wrote:
| Seems like it: https://www.rcmp-
| grc.gc.ca/en/news/2022/alberta-rcmp-make-ar...
| Tiktaalik wrote:
| There's sympathy shown in the polls (Canadians are a
| sympathetic people!) but the polling shows a pretty clear
| super majority of people that want the protesters to go
| home (Canadians don't like disorder).
| lesuorac wrote:
| > An Ipsos poll published Thursday and conducted
| exclusively for Global News showed that nearly 46 per cent
| of Canadians say they "may not agree with everything" the
| trucker convoy says or does, but the frustration of
| protesters is "legitimate and worthy" of sympathy.
|
| I don't think your statement is at odds with gp's. A
| legitimate concern doesn't make it popular.
|
| However, the greater issue is a lack of organization and so
| nothing (very little) is going to get done (much like with
| BLM).
| adra wrote:
| Don't forget the 99%!
|
| The best thing ruin collective disputes is to add more
| noise and discourse so that the original cause is lost in
| the shuffle and the majority just sit back and shrug. "I
| can get behind solving one problem at a time, but when
| they're shouting for 20, I can't be bothered to care."
| inter_netuser wrote:
| They have an NGO, some directors and a lawsuit they are
| working on for constitutional challenge against the
| mandate by one of the Constitution drafters.
| amscanne wrote:
| Had the parent post said merely "unpopular", I'd probably
| agree. However "super unpopular" to me feels aligned with
| the government message that this is a tiny fringe
| minority, which quite frankly, is dishonest.
|
| Re: getting things done, so far it seems counter-
| productive in the sense that now the government doesn't
| want to seem "weak" and relax restrictions, even though
| it's what reasonable governments are doing at this point.
| I'm not going to put this at the feet of the organizers
| (whoever they are); it simply deepens my already deep
| disappointment with the Canadian government since thats a
| political move.
| 0xbadc0de5 wrote:
| The protest is super unpopular among certain politicians,
| certain state sponsored media, and certain supporters of
| those politicians and media. However, there are a very large
| number who support ending all lockdowns and mandates
| immediately - as evidenced by their ability to raise money,
| repeatedly, as well as by the physical presence of so many
| supporters across the globe.
|
| That said, I agree this is most likely the work of an
| individual. For all its usefulness in raising money, GSG has
| probably never been subjected to a real-world pentest by a
| highly motivated attacker. Not to mention the legions of
| attackers one would expect from such a polarising subject.
| This was unfortunate but entirely predictable.
| jamincan wrote:
| There are also a lot of Canadians who don't support
| mandates and want easing of restrictions and also oppose
| the protestors.
| jagger27 wrote:
| I love seeing these completely unsubstantiated conspiracy
| theories posted here over and over.
| 1024core wrote:
| From the TC article:
|
| _It's not known for exactly how long the bucket was left
| exposed, but a text file left behind by an unnamed security
| researcher, dated September 2018, warned that the bucket was
| "not properly configured" which can have "dangerous security
| implications."_
|
| So... this has been a known problem since 2018. Time to stop
| tilting at windmills.
| arbitrage wrote:
| If it's all theater, then it's worth pointing out the A/C/M
| times of files are easy to fake. A competent intruder can
| feather filesystem times and modify logs to point
| investigators toward the wrong conclusion.
| electroly wrote:
| Not in an S3 bucket you can't. We're not talking about a
| filesystem here.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Depends on the filesystem access. I didn't think Amazon
| buckets generally allowed that kind of thing.
| kayodelycaon wrote:
| It doesn't. There's no S3 API to change upload dates.
| msie wrote:
| Facebook Groups supporting the convoy created by foreign
| content mills:
|
| https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/politics/2022/02/12/repo...
| throw7 wrote:
| The gov't doesn't need to crack in this case. They shut down
| the funds through the courts. These "donation" sites
| (gofundme/givesendgo) are going to be scrutinized much more
| closely from this point forward.
| barbazoo wrote:
| Is there any trace of evidence that this is state sponsored?
| gpm wrote:
| > the timing of this seems to point to state sponsored hacking,
| no?
|
| No.
|
| The hack was obviously politically motivated, beyond that,
| nothing here points towards it being state sponsored. Non-state
| actors are equally motivated by the timing.
|
| The idea that the Canadian government hacked GiveSendGo is also
| frankly ridiculous. Our government just isn't that lawless,
| _and_ they could almost certainly get this data via legal
| means.
| rajin444 wrote:
| > Our government just isn't that lawless
|
| Both recent and historical evidence does not really support
| this claim. It is very very very easy to find many examples
| of governments breaking the law for their own benefit.
|
| I don't think it was the Canadian government either, but your
| logic does not seem good.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > It is very very very easy to find many examples of
| governments breaking the law for their own benefit.
|
| The current premier's father had feds planting explosive in
| people's mailboxes [0] and tried to pin it on some
| political group he didn't like back in the 70's. Talk about
| a coincidence.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_controversies_inv
| olvin...
| gpm wrote:
| Both the words "our government" (i.e. the current canadian
| government), and "that" are doing work. Neither examples of
| random governments committing significant crimes, nor of
| the Canadian government committing less significantly
| corrupt crimes, contradict the premise.
| rajin444 wrote:
| There is ample evidence of the Canadian government
| breaking the law for their own benefit and there is ample
| evidence for these occurrences being "significant".
|
| And that's not even taking into account that once trust
| is broken there are likely many more instances that
| aren't known.
| gpm wrote:
| So by "significant" I'm excluding nonsense like this [1]
| where the government comes up with a creative (incorrect)
| interpretation of the law, and things like "a few rogue
| members of the government break the law" (e.g. [2]).
|
| Neither of those would explain a government entity
| hacking this website to leak this data in an attempt to
| benefit the government.
|
| I can't produce evidence that there isn't a history of
| actions like this, since my evidence really is just the
| lack of evidence. Thus I'd ask you to produce the "ample
| evidence" you claim exists.
|
| [1] https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/2020/09/0
| 4/ontar...
|
| [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/17/canada-
| covid-c...
| belval wrote:
| imo our government is probably lawless enough, but I doubt
| that it is competent enough to pull something off like
| that. The CSIS pays bad wages, their employees are mostly
| there for the cushy 9 to 5.
| el_memorioso wrote:
| So incompetent they couldn't access an unsecured Amazon
| S3 bucket that was known to be insecure for some time? It
| sounds to me like GiveSendGo is simply incompetent with
| respect to security and some unskilled "hacker" took
| advantage of their incompetence.
| alisonkisk wrote:
| ineedasername wrote:
| Why jump to state-sponsored? This would be the exact right time
| for anyone ideologicaly opposed to the protest's motivations to
| hack donor data.
| hammock wrote:
| Are there non-authoritarians that want jab mandates so badly
| that they will hack websites to doxx innocent protestors?
| Could be, I haven't met any (thankfully)
| lazide wrote:
| Plenty of people may not want jab mandates, may not be
| authoritarians, but are in earshot/irritation reach of the
| protests. And considering how badly the information was
| secured, pretty much anyone who knows anything about an S3
| bucket seems like they could have done it. Not even really
| hacking.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Supporting vax mandates doesn't make someone part of the
| "state". Plenty of people that are not part of the
| government support mandates.
|
| You're also assuming that support for mandates would be the
| only motive: While less likely than mandate support,
| someone may simply have been very angry that their life had
| been turned to chaos & misery by the protestors.
| hammock wrote:
| >You're also assuming that support for mandates would be
| the only motive:
|
| Not my assumption. The premise of the comment I replied
| to was that they were ideologically opposed
| mywittyname wrote:
| Also, "the state" seems to tacitly support the protests.
| Others have rightly pointed out, that had this been a left-
| wing protest, "the state" response would have been brutal and
| decisive. So it's kind of hard to see why they'd do it this
| way rather than taking a much more direct approach.
|
| I have no doubts that the true culprits for this hack will be
| found and the punishment will be orders of magnitude worse
| than anything the truckers will receive.
| JacobThreeThree wrote:
| >had this been a left-wing protest, "the state" response
| would have been brutal and decisive
|
| Recent history does not support this view.
|
| When left-wing railway blockades shut down the entire CN
| rail network, there was no "brutal and decisive" response.
| It took the better part of a year to resolve, and the OPP
| didn't enforce the court ordered injunction CN got, and the
| Liberal government was meeting frequently with the
| protestors.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/marc-miller-path-forward-
| pr...
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Even though many Anglo left-wing groups are sympathetic
| to, and act in solidarity with the First Nations, is it
| accurate to label indigenous protesters as left-wing
| protesters? How united was the left when the Mohawks
| stood in the way of Quebecois nationalism? Perhaps it is
| imprecise to conflate incipient nationalist groups within
| Canada with "left-wing."
| alisonkisk wrote:
| AYBABTME wrote:
| There's plenty of techies in Ottawa with the means, motives and
| opportunities to perform this action. People over there are
| quite annoyed at the truckers, so I wouldn't be surprised if
| it's someone related who's annoyed at the whole situation. No
| need for state sponsorship to find poorly secured data.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| It could be state sponsored hacking, but I think it's more
| likely to be don't by someone who got annoyed by the protests.
|
| If I had trucks honking in front of my window, I'd do whatever
| I could to get them to fuck off as well. No need for the state
| to get involved if you just piss off enough random people.
| dehrmann wrote:
| I doubt someone who lived that close to the honking had the
| ability and chutzpah to do this.
|
| After seeing how angry people got over Joe Rogan, I
| absolutely think there are militantly progressive people who
| are more concerned with the content of speech than the
| chilling effect of limiting free speech who would do this.
| Which isn't to say I agree with the Ottawa protesters or
| bridge blockaders; I think both went well outside the bounds
| of free speech.
| novok wrote:
| Why wouldn't they? I've heard they're all over city cores
| and you wouldn't think a socially inept tech worker or
| teenager in a toronto tower would get annoyed enough on a
| pure noise basis to do something like this?
| peter422 wrote:
| So is somebody physically blocking a bridge with a giant
| truck and refusing to move it less militant than somebody
| pulling their music off Spotify and writing a letter
| explaining their choice?
|
| Why did you use the term "militant" to describe the side
| that is not using military tactics.
| RIMR wrote:
| This is the standard right-wing strategy. Speak of your
| opponent exactly as you deserve to be spoken about. As
| long as you do it first, it makes accusing you of what
| you're actually doing less impactful, and sows doubt.
|
| Basically, they know that one side is militaristic, and
| the other is not, but they side with the militaristic
| side ideologically, so they reflexively demonize their
| opponents with terms that better describe themselves,
| Knowing it's a bad look intentionally distancing
| themselves from the reality of what they stand for.
| cudgy wrote:
| Blocking bridges with trucks and no guns is a military
| tactic? I believe that is an example of civil
| disobedience. Words matter.
| lobocinza wrote:
| To be fair civil disobedience can be a military tactic if
| it's employed to achieve a military/political goal.
|
| And this isn't to pass judgment on any of the groups, I
| don't live in Canada, I'm not a Joe Rogan listener or
| Spotify user, I really don't care.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Yes, blockades are a timeless military tactic.
| bena wrote:
| Yes. Disrupting supply chains is a thing militaries do.
| Regardless if they used guns or not. Militaries would
| love to win all conflicts with as few guns as possible.
| So if they could blockade a country with no guns at all,
| that would be ideal.
|
| The point being made is that pulling one's music from
| Spotify is a personal choice about stuff you control.
|
| Blocking bridges is forcing others who may not even be
| involved in your conflict to suffer the consequences of
| it. This is generally considered "a dick move".
| RIMR wrote:
| Shutting down routes in and out of a city for such a
| selfish, delusional cause is well beyond what any
| rational person would call "civil disobedience". There is
| no basis for allowing the intentional permanent
| disruption of public resources and services to fight for
| a cause. You can't just filibuster society by sabotaging
| infrastructure like this.
|
| With self-driving tech being a present reality, these
| truckers are just giving everyone a reason to automate
| them out of their jobs. A robot can't throw a tantrum,
| join a gang, and terrorize your city.
| doctor_eval wrote:
| They said "militant". That does not mean "military", it
| means "confrontational".
| bentlegen wrote:
| This weekend a bunch of counter protesters went out and
| blocked a street in Ottawa to prevent new convoy protestors
| from entering the downtown core.[1]
|
| I think if the ire of your neighbors has risen to the point
| that they'll go out and sit in -20C weather all day to stop
| you, it's not unlikely that someone would spend an
| afternoon poking at your website.
|
| [1] https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/counter-protesters-block-
| convoy-ve...
| jollybean wrote:
| It's almost assuredly not done by someone who was directly
| 'annoyed' by the protests, that's a relatively small area,
| and hackers with skills are not that common.
|
| The protests are an ideological touchstone, there are surely
| a lot of hackers in this world keen on 'exposing terrible
| people' (in their purview) and my money is on just some
| random 'hacker'.
|
| I'm doubtful that it would be a government action, because
| those secrets are hard to keep and if it was leaked, the
| current political situation would collapse immediately.
| Trudeau & Co. would be gone for good. The details wouldn't
| really matter that much. I mean, he survived Blackface but he
| won't survive that kind of scandal.
|
| That said, I'm pretty sure there was a de-facto systematic
| collusion between gov. offisials and GoFundMe etc. to shut
| down funding. The gov. can show GFM 'police reports' etc. and
| that can be used as a basis for cancellation. This is a bit
| problematic because all protests of a certain size have
| 'unlawful activity' and as soon as something is on the books,
| it's hard to put in context. This gives systems like GFM (or
| Apple, or Google or Amazon or VISA) the legitimate 'cover' to
| do kind of whatever.
|
| I don't support the truckers, I see their TikTok's and they
| are rather uninformed antivaxxers, however, I kind of have to
| accept their right to protest.
|
| Protesters in Portland literally took city blocks by force,
| threatened violence with serious weapons, two people died,
| there was tons of avoidable crime, police and rescue not
| allowed to enter etc. and they didn't seem to get quite the
| disdain that the truckers are, rather the press kind of just
| seemed to 'avoid them'. I understand every situation is
| different ... but still.
|
| Truckers are dug in in Ottawa and Police are wary of
| confrontation, there's hints that the rank and file of Ott
| Police and RCMP are a bit sympathetic, and the Tow Trucker
| drivers are as well and don't want to face blowback. There is
| 'just enough empathy' among the Canadian public that it could
| 'tip in their favour' if we saw the firehoses or CS gas break
| out. It's definitely a very delicate political situation.
|
| But in the end - Occam's Razor: some guy did this and leaked
| it, that's that.
|
| They will eventually go home.
| manquer wrote:
| > That's a relatively small area, and hackers with skills
| are not that common.
|
| It is not some high end zero day they discovered. It is
| just a misconfigured s3 bucket. There are tools out there
| which scan for this kind of thing without any code
| required.
|
| While some level of technical expertise is required, most
| developers could something like this if sufficiently
| motivated
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| >I'm pretty sure there was a de-facto systematic collusion
| between gov. offisials and GoFundMe etc. to shut down
| funding
|
| No need to collude or conspire when everyone is already
| happy with each other's actions and everyone knows what the
| others want and which actions will step on their toes and
| which will be neutral or build good will.
|
| Real collusion/conspiracy where there is actual
| communication between big actors like these is vanishingly
| rare. Behavior like "we set out price same as our
| competition's because why undercut each other" is dirt
| common.
| btbuildem wrote:
| The language of the manifesto suggests someone.. irate
| HappySweeney wrote:
| 20 hours of air horn outside your window will make you ...
| irate.
| verisimi wrote:
| ... but 2 years of government mandated economic
| destruction is fine?
|
| They didn't do all this in Sweden.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Sweden's economy actually dropped harder than ours in
| Canada. The government was really generous, and while
| many especially in hospitality are worse off, few were
| truly devastated.
|
| None of which are the supposed leaders of the
| manifestation, truckers, which actually did pretty well
| through all this - ask me why.
| peter422 wrote:
| Sweden has vaccine rules too...
| logifail wrote:
| > Sweden has vaccine rules too...
|
| Can't you enter Sweden with either vaccination _or_ proof
| of recovery _or_ a negative test?
|
| https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/the-public-health-
| agency...
| Daishiman wrote:
| You know the reason why things aren't back to normal has
| little to do with mandates and a lot to do with the fact
| that, mandate or not, there was a deadly virus hanging
| around for two years and that's gonna change social
| behavior anyway?
| lazide wrote:
| Don't forget that 2 years of stress, angst, fear, new
| rules, normal hate of rules, etc. will make almost anyone
| stressed out and angry no matter how much they believe in
| the purpose behind it all, or how important it is.
|
| Which when it's society wide, makes society stressed out
| and angry.
|
| Stressed out and angry people do dumb and counter
| productive things. Sometimes even to the point of severe
| self harm.
|
| Society when it is stressed out and angry tends to
| fragment and be less cohesive. Sometimes even to the
| point of severe self harm.
|
| Wondering which side (or which sides there are, or why
| there even are 'sides') is doing the MOST dumb and
| counter productive thing is mostly part of the problem,
| not actually a solution, in the same way as a tired angry
| person trying to figure out who to yell at/blame, instead
| of getting some sleep or whatever.
|
| Society wide, we need to do some serious self-care and
| calming the hell down - which would be nice, but good
| luck. So I expect we'll get a lot more fighting.
| iqanq wrote:
| Things aren't back to normal because of politics. There
| have been places where things have been normal for over a
| year now.
| Daishiman wrote:
| No, there aren't.
|
| I live in a place where you can shit on restrictions all
| you want. Things aren't back to normal because people are
| still careful on how much they socialize and what the
| risk profile is. Things aren't back to normal because
| people have moved away from offices and it turns out a
| lot of people like that just fine, meaning a lot of old
| businesses have shut down, new businesses have opened up,
| and habits have changed.
|
| The old world isn't coming back, ever. The world has
| changed. Even post-pandemic (which we are still far from
| over) I'm just gonna be more conscious about spending
| time in very closed spaces for extended time. The
| uncompromising are gonna sit a few things out even more.
| Also something like 0.5% of the population died and a few
| percentage points have ongoing long-COVID.
| logifail wrote:
| > Also something like 0.5% of the population died [..]
|
| Q: What % of the population would be expected to die in a
| "normal" (pre-Covid) year?
|
| (I realise there is a discussion about excess deaths, but
| it's not quite as simple as being able to assign the
| excess to Covid, see
| https://www.health.org.uk/publications/long-reads/what-
| has-h... )
| colinmhayes wrote:
| Yes, the majority of the population supports vaccine
| mandates.
| vmception wrote:
| > the timing of this seems to point to state sponsored hacking,
| no?
|
| what does hack _timing_ have to do with the state? I don 't
| follow your logic at all. I would never make that connection.
| It's just an insecure website and server, anyone can run their
| testing suite and have gotten the same info. Why rationalize
| incompetence with state sponsored?
|
| I'm really about to sell some Q branded coffee mugs to everyone
| with an email address in this leak, so fckin gullible.
| albroland wrote:
| I'd think it's far more likely that GiveSendGo doesn't have the
| most sophisticated and well maintained tech stack and an
| exploit was easily found by hacktivists engaging in defacement
| and doxxing.
| nostrademons wrote:
| It was an open S3 bucket linked from the source code of the
| Freedom Convoy's donation page:
|
| https://techcrunch.com/2022/02/08/ottawa-trucker-freedom-
| con...
| spoils19 wrote:
| An open S3 bucket is a huge red flag that this feels state
| manufactured. Most people aligned with this protest
| probably possess the technical chops to know to do better.
| cudgy wrote:
| Let's put it in the cloud, man. Everybody's doing it!
| mattferderer wrote:
| The Tech Crunch article is much more informative.
|
| Not only was this S3 public for reading but sounds like you
| could create & update as well since 2018. It contained "50
| gigabytes of files, including passports and driver
| licenses".
|
| Per the Tech Crunch article:
|
| > It's not known for exactly how long the bucket was left
| exposed, but a text file left behind by an unnamed security
| researcher, dated September 2018, warned that the bucket
| was "not properly configured" which can have "dangerous
| security implications."
| ren_engineer wrote:
| wouldn't take state sponsored hacking to do this to most
| startups, probably just a few people using open source tools to
| look for basic stuff
|
| people love to dunk on companies in situations like this but
| probably 95% of startups would get hacked like this if the MSM
| put a bunch of attention on them and made them a target. Even
| huge companies get pwned due to basic security issues
| jeromegv wrote:
| Foreign support to this movement is not exactly a secret. They
| were waiving Trump flags, confederate flags and lots of MAGA
| signs were seen among the protesters. Also the movement has
| been publicized on Fox News and by famous right-wing people in
| the US, that's just normal that it would eventually lead to a
| lot of people in the US deciding to start donating. The
| simplest explanation is more likely than the conspiracy that
| the Canadian government had time to make up fake donations from
| the US.
| blast wrote:
| This is a bit removed from your point about foreign support,
| but the flag thing appears to have been exaggerated for
| political purposes. The Confederate flag guy was shunned by
| the protestors and stood out like a sore thumb to begin with:
| https://twitter.com/VigilantFox/status/1487834109678395392.
| (I'm not endorsing that Twitter account - it's the only link
| I know of to the video, and the video is interesting.)
|
| It has also been commonly reported that the protestors are
| Nazis carrying Nazi flags, but this reporting is also
| excessively politicized. Here's a first-person account giving
| a completely different picture:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtN4VqBeCMg#t=6932.
|
| There are hundreds of hours of livestreams on youtube showing
| the protests. Anyone can dip in at random and get a sense.
| That's how I ran across that last link of the guy talking
| about the swastika flag. From the livestreams it seems clear
| that this is an authentic and peaceful working class protest,
| not some far right "insurrection" (a word that has also been
| chosen for political reasons). The most fascinating aspect of
| this event is what it reveals about the class divide in
| Canada, and the West in general, since each country has its
| own version of this right now.
| BeefWellington wrote:
| > From the livestreams it seems clear that this is an
| authentic and peaceful working class protest, not some sort
| of far right "insurrection" (a word that has also been
| chosen for political reasons). The most fascinating aspect
| of this event is what it reveals about the class divide in
| Canada, or the West in general, since each country has its
| own version of this right now.
|
| This is actually quite disingenuous. All it tells you is
| the general comportment of what people are doing around
| those livestreaming (who are almost all clearly marked).
|
| What you aren't seeing or being exposed to in this way are
| the countless complaints of harassment, death threats, and
| rape threats the people living in this area are facing on a
| routine basis, even when the person being threatened was
| trying to help the protestors.[1][2][3][4]
|
| As I've mentioned in other places, there's a lot of
| protests in Ottawa. It's the nation's capital and it's
| often a symbolic target if nothing else. Ottawa's citizens
| are familiar with protestors. This is a whole different
| ballgame.
|
| In terms of it being working class, I think that's also a
| disingenuous label. As you can see in this walk through of
| the stopped convoy, there's _VERY FEW_ actual big rigs
| participating, and the people here are largely driving
| recent pickups.[5] These are not put-out truckers, these
| are anti-vax /anti-mandate people from across the spectrum,
| and not a lot of them.
|
| [1]: https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottaw-tow-
| truck-op...
|
| [2]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/moo-shu-ice-
| cream-empl...
|
| [3]: https://ottawacitizen.com/news/unruly-protesters-
| prompt-earl...
|
| [4]: https://globalnews.ca/news/8594809/covid-freedom-
| convoy-otta... -> Multiple sources in first paragraph.
|
| [5]: https://mobile.twitter.com/Gray_Mackenzie/status/14929
| 139048...
| cf100clunk wrote:
| Peaceful? I think news of armed militants amongst the
| protesters will soon be commonplace, like today's arrests
| of this heavily armed cadre:
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-
| blocka...
| User23 wrote:
| Was there any actual violence? If not then it was
| peaceful. Merely being armed certainly increases the
| capacity for violence, but it's not violence in and of
| itself.
|
| I'm not familiar with Canadian law on the subject, so I
| don't know if possession of the items in question is
| unlawful or if there was some other cause for the
| arrests.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| > I'm not familiar with Canadian law on the subject
|
| That's the crux of this - their weaponry was way out of
| line according to Canadian law.
| spoils19 wrote:
| I think it's not the worst thing in the world for there
| to be visual elements inspired by the 2nd Amendment. If
| nothing else, it puts pressure on the government and
| shows that many free thinkers have solidarity with
| Canadians.
| blast wrote:
| In Canadian terms it's politically one of the most
| foolish things you could do. There's little constituency
| for 2nd Amendment style gun rights in Canada, so they'd
| be sawing off the limb they're sitting on. And that's
| apart from whether they broke the law, which would also
| be politically foolish since it undermines their argument
| of civil disobedience. I don't know anything about the
| facts of this case though.
| spoils19 wrote:
| The point is that many other countries should adopt
| rights similar to the 2nd Amendment, because it has been
| proven to increase civil liberties with very few
| downsides. Canadians who refuse to do so are more likely
| to be trampled by big government.
| jstream67 wrote:
| planting a 'nazi/white nationalist' in protests and then
| having the media focus on it seems like such a obvious
| tactic now that it is making me question every time this
| kind of thing occurs.
|
| For example, remember the recent election in Virginia where
| there was a ton of media retweets of a picture of a handful
| of 'white supremacists' in front of the tour bus for the
| Republican candidate. The media made a huge deal about it
| and the reporter who was on the scene made all kinds of
| absurd tweets about things she 'overheard' them say.
| However it didn't take long before people found pictures of
| the 'White Supremacists' working for the Democrat
| candidates campaign. One was even driving the tour bus!
|
| https://redstate.com/bonchie/2021/10/29/busted-multiple-
| part...
|
| That was a almost absurdy poorly executed attempt at a
| political smear but it really opened my eyes to how easy it
| is to insert bad actors into an event - especially when you
| have a complicit media.
| nicoffeine wrote:
| How are the complicit media organized? Is there a secret
| WhatsApp thread going on between the hundreds of media
| organizations? Who runs the organization? How do they
| keep it a secret?
| _-david-_ wrote:
| There is / was a secret group of journalists called
| JournoList. The original was shut down and there is now a
| new one.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/JournoList
| twic wrote:
| > From the livestreams it seems clear that this is an
| authentic and peaceful working class protest
|
| I would question the "working class" bit. Most of us on HN
| are office workers, who don't get out much, so we tend to
| assume anyone who works outdoors, including driving a
| truck, must be working class. But remember that every
| trucker participating in this protest has a truck to
| participate in: they are either owner-operators, or
| participating on behalf of trucking firm. Owner-operators
| are petite bourgeoisie; owners of firms are capitalists.
| Neither are working class, in an economic sense.
|
| Really, when we office drones say the truckers are working
| class, what we actually mean is that they are rednecks.
| They come from rural areas, they probably don't watch the
| same TV shows as us, and perhaps they don't even drink
| speciality coffee. But you can be a redneck petit
| bourgeois, or a redneck capitalist!
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Honestly the odds that was a fed are pretty high. The
| father had feds planting explosive in people's mailboxes
| [0] and tried to pin it on some political group he didn't
| like back in the 70's. Feds were forced to confessed when
| one got busted doing it, quite literally red-handed.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_controversies_inv
| olvin...
| hammock wrote:
| talentedcoin wrote:
| Because Canada is not part of the USA?
| gpm wrote:
| Because they're all symbols of foreign political
| figures/deceased foreign governments?
| hammock wrote:
| [deleted]
| gpm wrote:
| No, but if a bunch of people flying Peurto Rican flags
| swarm the Texas legislature it's probably reasonable to
| assume that there is a degree of support from people in
| Puerto Rico/outside of texas.
| ben_w wrote:
| Commenting only on the flags themselves and not the protest
| or the hack:
|
| Canada is not part of the USA.
|
| Trump was a President of the USA not Canada; the
| Confederacy was made from the bits of the USA furthest away
| from Canada; and while a literal interpretation of the word
| "America" in the initialism "Make America Great Again"
| would refer to the entire continent, it is usually
| understood as specifically just the USA and not Canada (and
| _definitely_ not Mexico or Cuba let alone the rest).
|
| Flags are widely used as a symbol of identity. Could be an
| (excuse the term, I can think of none other that fits)
| _false flag_ , but there's a reason why that term exists.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Honnestly, there's a lot more people moving from Canada
| to the US than the reverse. Maybe there's a desire to
| embrace the American way (of course, the state media
| won't touch it!).
|
| When hiring, we get a ton of resumes from Canada to
| transfer to the US but the reverse almost never happens.
| mrtesthah wrote:
| Foreign support is grossly apparent from the leaked data.
| Individual donors 36,975 Canadian 55,870
| Foreign 92,845 Total Amount donated
| $4,311,287 Canadian $12,532,326 Foreign
| $16,843,613 Total
| sam_goody wrote:
| I think that most people mean "foreign" as foreign
| government (such as CCP) support, not just support from
| middle-class Americans (and Europeans) who identify with
| the protests and happen to be foreigners.
|
| And while it could be that foreign governments have
| donated with false identities over GSG, it is more likely
| that they would send in people to figure out who is
| really capable of moving things, and contact them with
| cash, tips, and resources.
|
| (I am not commenting on the envoy, as so far have only
| seen it in news outlets [such as CNN & NYT on the left
| and Fox on the right] who have not earned my trust - so I
| do not know what is really happening.)
| gpm wrote:
| As a Canadian I absolutely count donations from
| foreigners in the US and Europe as foreign money and
| absolutely think that that should be illegal (though I
| have no clue as to what the current legal status of that
| is).
| mrtesthah wrote:
| > _The simplest explanation is more likely than the
| conspiracy that the Canadian government had time to make up
| fake donations from the US._
|
| Isn't it convenient how all contradicting evidence is
| dismissed by evidence-free conspiracy theories?
|
| https://www.wired.com/video/watch/why-you-can-never-argue-
| wi...
|
| And the evidence from the leak is fully testable and
| falsifiable! You could literally just email people who
| donated and ask them.
| okokwhatever wrote:
| Reading this thread demonstrate to me why we (as a society, no
| matter where you're living) can't live together as we've been
| doing anymore. The ideas are colliding in too many areas and all
| of them look like a rat trap. Something hostile in human behavior
| we are unable to remove is deeply rotten and who knows how we can
| fix it. This are sad (but non desperate) times to live.
| snarf21 wrote:
| It is all pushed by digital ad revenue. Conflict is _extremely_
| profitable. As long as socials and infotainment (it 's not
| news) companies make more selling conflict and outrage, that is
| all we'll get. They will amplify anything for more dollars.
| When is the last time you saw a headline that wasn't click-
| bait? Everyone is so busy hating their neighbor they miss the
| oligarchy printing money.
| AviationAtom wrote:
| I don't think much has changed, what has changed is we now have
| the Internet and technology, enabling the ideas and information
| to be heard.
| tablespoon wrote:
| >> Reading this thread demonstrate to me why we (as a
| society, no matter where you're living) can't live together
| as we've been doing anymore. The ideas are colliding in too
| many areas and all of them look like a rat trap. Something
| hostile in human behavior we are unable to remove is deeply
| rotten and who knows how we can fix it. This are sad (but non
| desperate) times to live.
|
| > I don't think much has changed, what has changed is we now
| have the Internet and technology, enabling the ideas and
| information to be heard.
|
| It's not just that. The internet and technology also allow an
| unprecedented levels of disconnection, dehumanization, and
| "filter bubble"-ing.
|
| IRL interaction put breaks on a lot things that online
| interaction has now removed.
| redisman wrote:
| I'm somewhat hopeful. For me getting out of the media bubble
| was actually super easy once you just do it and now I feel like
| I have a more accurate view of the world and a lot less stress.
| If people stop overdosing on CNN and Fox and Facebook then
| after the withdrawals I think everyone will feel just better
| and clearer. Now how do we make everyone stop doing that? No
| idea.
|
| Wikipedia current events is my "news" source now and I couldn't
| be happier
| jdrc wrote:
| Governmental centralization control has grown steadily since
| the start of the 20th century. Control and micromanagement of
| human behavior and thought, especially in big cities, has grown
| beyond what humans are capable of tolerating
| fennecfoxen wrote:
| "Public advocacy is for everyone, not only those able and willing
| to weather abuse. And donors have good reason to fear abuse." --
| Jeremy D. Tedesco
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| I didn't join in on the BLM protests because I'm neither American
| nor arrogant enough to tell Americans how they want to run their
| society.
|
| Ban foreign money entering your political system. Nothing good
| will ever come from it.
| Dma54rhs wrote:
| Well I'm sure these truckers think and say it's a human rights
| issue not political, if you ban that you would ban the
| mechanism liberal democracy values get spread around the world
| financially speaking, usually under the name of human rights.
| pinephoneguy wrote:
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| How about Canadians living in America who are de facto barred
| from entering their country to visit relatives?
| criddell wrote:
| Who is barred? I've travelled to Canada to visit family a
| number of times last year and once so far this year. I have
| another trip planned for late spring.
|
| Canadian citizens enter by right.
| ne0flex wrote:
| There was a time that entering as a Canadian citizen by air
| would get you escorted to a gov't approved place of
| quarantine for a few days, regardless of your living
| situation / ability to self-isolate. Granted, that's not
| the situation currently.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| Unvaccinated Canadians older than five who have to
| quarantine for fourteen days.
|
| A 14 day quarantine for an endemic virus just as present in
| Canada as anywhere else is a de facto prohibition.
| yohannparis wrote:
| Nope it is not, this is an abuse of the term
| "prohibition".
| fuzzer37 wrote:
| Just get vaccinated. It takes, like, 5 minutes.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| Just comply and the regime will not threaten you is not
| really how a free person thinks.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| No. It is immoral for a healthy, COVID recovered man to
| get a vaccine best used in the third world.
|
| To travel, and get around my moral qualms, I signed up
| for a vaccine trial. I was refused or got the placebo.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| The vaccine reserved for you did not go to the third
| world instead.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| I'll help your argument out and make it stronger (because
| "reserved" vaccines have indeed been shipped overseas):
|
| Once a vial is opened the vaccines contained therein
| can't be shipped overseas and will expire in a few hours.
| I could therefore wait outside a Walgreens before closing
| and get the shot.
|
| Except Im not a utilitarian. I cannot take what is
| rightfully another's just because they cant enjoy it. I
| believe that all young people should have refused the
| shot, therefore liberating millions of doses. Mine is but
| the first (literal) drop in what should be an ocean; and
| Im actively encouraging my friends to do the moral thing
| and refuse to get boosted.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| Do you only do this for vaccines? other medical
| treatment? food? water?
|
| I don't know where to draw the line myself, so I wonder
| what kind of rules you set for yourself. This sounds like
| one of the most extreme examples I've heard.
| cik2e wrote:
| Nice sentiment but this is analogous to the concept of
| not throwing out food because there are starving people
| out there. The vaccine you're not taking isn't going to
| magically get reappropriated for use in the third world.
| Most likely, it will just go to waste.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| Yes it is. My parents were vaccinated with vaccines not
| used by first world countries.
|
| EDIT:
|
| Also, consider that perhaps the West should be consuming
| (far) less resources including food? Eat what's on your
| plate, even if you're full, and skip the next meal. Your
| discomfort and hunger will help remind you next time to
| have an appropriate serving.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| I've heard this spin multiple times.
|
| Fun fact - people who live or have lived in disease-
| plagued areas of the world are far more likely to
| willingly adhere to guidelines on masks, isolation, and
| the like, because they've seen, firsthand, the
| devastating effect of pandemics and epidemics.
|
| Let's not pretend for one moment that your average
| antivaxxer in the US or Canada is in any way on some sort
| of moral crusade for the third world.
|
| It's just a "better" reason than "because I'm selfish".
| seattle_spring wrote:
| Gosh, that's a really tough position to be in. If only
| there was something they could do to be exempt from the
| 14 day quarantine. Anything at all.
| hanselot wrote:
| beaconstudios wrote:
| Well, maybe they should get vaccinated then.
| [deleted]
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| Point stands they're barred entry.
|
| Look, I get it. They're icky and Canada has a long
| history of denying or trying to deny entry to "icky" ppl.
| Mediterraneans, Asians, Eminem (though I forgot about
| that one eh?).
|
| Canada has just a long list of things its apologized for.
| Like barring entry to Mediterraneans, Asians and Eminem.
| seattle_spring wrote:
| Comparing racial exclusion and barring felons to how
| unvaccinated people are being treated is some seriously
| disingenous nonsense.
|
| > Look, I get it
|
| No, you don't.
| kstenerud wrote:
| Yes, so they don't contribute to the clogging of
| hospitals (90% of COVID related hospitalizations are
| unvaccinated people).
|
| Stop being so selfish and get vaccinated.
| zapdrive wrote:
| Not all unvaccinated people end up in a hospital though.
| So aren't we discriminating against them?
|
| It's equivalent to saying that lets bar all male Canadian
| citizens from entering Canada, since over 90% of rapes
| are committed by men!
| kstenerud wrote:
| > Not all unvaccinated people end up in a hospital
| though. So aren't we discriminating against them?
|
| We absolutely are, and I applaud the effort.
|
| If they were fighting against rabies or measles or
| tetanus vaccinations, I'd say "Good on you! Do your part
| to clean out the shallow end of the gene pool."
|
| But once their stupidity endangers others, we as
| civilized people step in and stop them.
|
| When unvaccinated COVID patients flood the hospitals, it
| means that other people with serious or life threatening
| medical situations can't get the quality treatment they
| need. At this point, the antivax stupidity crosses over
| into danger-to-society.
|
| So yeah, block them until they no longer pose a threat.
| logifail wrote:
| > When unvaccinated COVID patients flood the hospitals
| [..]
|
| In our part of the world, despite eye-watering infection
| rates over the last few weeks, hospitals are absolutely
| nowhere near capacity (and that's putting it mildly).
|
| Were younger and fitter people really flooding hospitals
| if they got Covid? Thought the data on age and
| comorbidities is pretty clear and has been for a while
| now.[0][1]
|
| [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PII
| S2666-7... [1] https://academic.oup.com/biomedgerontology
| /article/75/11/222...
| kstenerud wrote:
| logifail wrote:
| > The fact that Canadian hospitals haven't been overrun
| is testament to how well the situation is being handled.
| But one must remain vigilant. Even Germany had problems
| with their hospitals despite their best efforts.
|
| Q1: Were Swedish hospitals overrun?
|
| Q2: If not, why not?
| shagie wrote:
| https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4833 (December 2020)
|
| > Health officials in Sweden have warned that intensive
| care units (ICUs) in and around Stockholm are under
| severe pressure and close to capacity for the first time
| during the pandemic.
|
| > Although the city's hospitals could increase the number
| of beds allocated to ICUs, there are insufficient
| specialist staff to support them, said Bjorn Eriksson,
| director of Region Stockholm Healthcare.
|
| > He told The BMJ, "So far, we have been one step ahead
| of the virus by continuously opening more care places so
| that they're available when the need arises. Now,
| healthcare staff are so hard pressed and the margins are
| so tight that on 10 December I formally asked the
| National Board of Health and Welfare for more specialised
| staff."
|
| > One option being considered is "borrowing" trained
| staff from private care providers, he said.
|
| > The Swedish government changed its approach to the
| pandemic last month when it introduced tougher
| restrictions on social interactions after cases started
| to rise. The soft approach the government had adopted,
| based on recommendations and voluntary behaviour of
| citizens, has shifted as cases of infection with SARS-
| CoV-2 have continued to surge along with hospitalisations
| and deaths.
|
| > This week Prime Minister Stefan Lofven announced that
| the ban on gatherings of more than eight people would
| extend to the Christmas holidays, while secondary schools
| have been told to switch to distance learning for the
| rest of the term. The government has also asked the
| parliament to grant it more authority to implement new
| measures such as closing shopping malls and gyms.
| kstenerud wrote:
| > Q1: Were Swedish hospitals overrun?
|
| Yes, they were. And they're still under strain.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Thank God nobody old or frail ever caught the disease
| from a young fit person.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| Im not arguing for or against vaccination. Im just
| pointing out that some _Canadians_ are _de facto_ barred
| from entry.
|
| The law also doesn't recognize natural immunity which is
| not that ineffective, is it?
| FireBeyond wrote:
| Upstream in this thread we have "it's not torture because
| no-one is making those residents who live in the area
| stay" - because of course, they all can afford the time
| and effort to go stay in a hotel out of the area for a
| few weeks...
|
| Here we have "oh, well, it might as well be a ban, if
| you're going to inconvenience someone for a few weeks".
| corry wrote:
| Quarantine != "barred". Perhaps inconvenient to the point
| of rethinking the trip, yes, but that's different than a
| citizen being denied the right of return by their
| government.
|
| And even that inconvenience can be removed with a free,
| safe shot that takes 30 seconds to get for those that
| aren't prevented by some other health condition.
| Spinnaker_ wrote:
| Former Newfoundland Premier Brian Peckford, one of the
| men who helped draft our Charter of Rights and Freedoms,
| is suing the government, claiming that these travel
| restrictions on Canadian citizens are unconstitutional.
|
| It's a pretty remarkable situation to have someone who
| wrote our constitution pointing out that the government
| is in error.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| The last man alive who sat with PET and the other
| premiers to discuss how Trudeau's unacceptable
| constitution (to the premiers who had to be on board) was
| going to pass muster.
| BeefWellington wrote:
| The case was doomed before it was filed because the
| pretense and premise is a bit absurd. Air Travel is not a
| right on its own and the federal government is freely
| able to place limits on who is allowed onto an airplane
| already, for a lot of arbitrary reasons (Canadians or
| otherwise). Setting that aside, provinces also have a say
| in how that works and could easily also force isolation
| on returning travelers and invoke the notwithstanding
| clause to enforce it. Either way, by the time it is
| argued we will hopefully be past COVID restrictions.
|
| It will also be interesting to see the moment of
| Peckford's lawyers arguing the intent of the constitution
| and the crown having to argue against it, given Peckford
| was there at its drafting. However, it would be foolish
| to believe the man to be automatically correct and
| infallible on this point in the court's eyes.
|
| _However_ , I do believe the discussion is worth having
| because if nothing else it will force the Canadian
| government to rethink its policies that were clearly
| developed on the fly without due consideration. Right
| now, with the benefit of hindsight, 14-day enforced
| quarantines and 3-5-day enforced stays at government
| designated hotels don't seem to have done much of
| anything other than throw the hospitality industry a
| bone. Personally, I would have preferred to see more
| aggressive testing done at points of entry, with
| quarantine notices essentially handed out to individuals
| who need it. Unfortunately successive governments
| undermined Canadian biotech industries and left the
| country without the needed capacity.
|
| There need to be better policies and plans in place for
| the next time this happens and it is important to have
| the discussion of just how much you're able to dictate to
| a given individual.
| jcadam wrote:
| Next time this happens, public health agencies will be
| dealing with large swaths of their populations who have
| zero (actually, negative) trust in them and refuse to
| comply with any and all measures from day one.
| mcguire wrote:
| How would that differ from the last two years?
| pessimizer wrote:
| They're having to deal with that _this_ time. Some people
| can 't be told, it seems to have little to do with any
| earned mistrust.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"notwithstanding clause"
|
| This thing makes a mockery of Canadian Bill of Rights
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > Quarantine != "barred". Perhaps inconvenient to the
| point of rethinking the trip, yes,
|
| The original quote was "de facto barred". If something is
| "inconvenient to the point that it makes the trip
| infeasible" it's pretty much as good as barring entry.
|
| > And even that inconvenience can be removed with a free,
| safe shot that takes 30 seconds to get for those that
| aren't prevented by some other health condition.
|
| I'm vaxxed and boosted, but at this point it doesn't seem
| like vaccines inhibit transmission and thus it's purely a
| matter of bodily autonomy. "yield your right to bodily
| autonomy and you may enter" is some authoritarian
| nonsense.
| TurningCanadian wrote:
| First, vaccines do inhibit transmission. They're not
| perfect, and the protection begins to wane after a few
| months, but to say that they don't inhibit transmission
| is false.
|
| Further, the vaccines have consistently significantly
| reduced hospitalization, and most Canadian hospitals
| continue to be stretched with a long backlog. The
| continued strain from COVID hospitalizations continues to
| impact others. Freedom has always been limited when it
| interferes with the rights of others, (in this case
| timely access to healthcare) and borders have always had
| stricter rules than normal life within a country.
|
| We're in a gray area here, granted. Ideally ones' own
| health choices would not impact others, and hospitals
| would be back to normal, but the restrictions are not
| nonsense.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > First, vaccines do inhibit transmission. They're not
| perfect, and the protection begins to wane after a few
| months, but to say that they don't inhibit transmission
| is false.
|
| I was a little imprecise--I don't think the transmission
| inhibiting effect is literally zero, but I suspect it's
| marginal (based on US health officials remarks about
| 'everyone is going to get omicron'
| https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/11/health/us-coronavirus-
| tuesday...).
|
| > Freedom has always been limited when it interferes with
| the rights of others, (in this case timely access to
| healthcare) and borders have always had stricter rules
| than normal life within a country.
|
| I can't take this argument seriously while Canada
| tolerates so many other things that increase one's risk
| of consuming hospital resources (drinking, smoking,
| driving, etc) and fails to mandate other things which
| would similarly reduce load on hospitals (diet, exercise,
| etc). In these other cases, it's regarded as the
| responsibility of the government to provide enough
| healthcare to meet demand-- _not_ to infringe on the
| rights of citizens.
|
| > We're in a gray area here, granted. Ideally ones' own
| health choices would not impact others, and hospitals
| would be back to normal, but the restrictions are not
| nonsense.
|
| I think we left the gray area when it became clear that
| COVID would be endemic and vaccines don't do much to
| reduce transmission.
| fock wrote:
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| ffs...
|
| > Abortion in Canada is legal at all stages of pregnancy,
| regardless of the reason, and is publicly funded as a
| medical procedure under the combined effects of the
| federal Canada Health Act and provincial health-care
| systems
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada
| FireBeyond wrote:
| And Trump has never, and will never be the Canadian Prime
| Minister, yet we see plenty of Trump flags at these
| protests.
|
| And confederate flags too, for that matter.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| I literally said "de facto". A 14 day quarantine when one
| has 10 days vacation a year is _de facto_ a bar.
|
| Nor did I argue, or am interested in arguing, the merits
| of banning the unvaccinated. I just stated that they are
| effectively banned from entry.
| jcadam wrote:
| That is the entire point. International travel is not for
| the plebs.
| pessimizer wrote:
| There are probably about 100 other reasons they can be
| banned from entry if they don't comply. Saying they are
| "banned" if they don't get a vaccination (even though of
| course it's not a ban, it's a "de facto" ban) is no more
| interesting than if they're "banned" if they won't submit
| to a search, or if they've filled their car with fruit.
| yohannparis wrote:
| Being barred to enter a country because of a lack of
| vaccination is nothing new from the pre-Covid-19 era.
| Like Brazil requires a Yellow Fever vaccination for
| people from some African countries.
| go_blue_13 wrote:
| they can go get the safe, effective vaccine for free so
| they don't have to quarantine
| mywittyname wrote:
| Quarantine procedures were in place during Zika and Ebola
| outbreaks as well. And those procedures were
| substantially more harsh. Major metro hospitals had
| quarantine facilities brought in for Ebola. Patients were
| shoved into a mobile field hospital for 14 days. Not a
| single protest happened for that.
|
| The takeaway here is that none of this is new. People are
| mostly just pissed off that the quarantine procedures now
| apply to them. It was a-okay when other people were
| shoved into isolation tanks because, "that's what happens
| when you go to Africa."
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| Right, but the virus was contained. A quarantine when you
| have as much COVID as anyone is petty.
| manquer wrote:
| Effectiveness is not metric that changes legality. A lot
| of government policy is ineffective does not make it
| illegal or unconstitutional .
| FpUser wrote:
| When the rights are infringed upon just for the fuck of
| it without solid proof that it is to prevent endangering
| large amount of lives - maybe it is technically legal but
| I think it is crime.
| manquer wrote:
| You can make it illegal and actually a crime. The
| democratic way to make it one is either make that point
| democratically elected leaders in a civilized manner or
| vote against them next election and organize into
| parties/block to influence policy.
|
| Terrorizing and hold regular people hostage with noise
| pollution, blockade and disrupt their lives is what
| revolutionary/terrorist organization would do.
|
| If protestors behave like terrorists and insurgents then
| sooner or later they will be treated like one.
| sequoia wrote:
| As has been pointed out, you can visit relatives in Canada.
| What you _can 't_ do is zip back and forth across the border
| willy nilly during this pandemic, while refusing to take the
| preventative measures 4/5ths of your (eligible) countrymen
| have taken, namely vaccination.
|
| I'm an American living in Canada. Like you I chose to live
| across an international border from my family. Guess what?
| Living abroad inconvenient from time to time! During a
| pandemic when one country (USA) chooses to behave
| idiotically, the result being a 3x per capita death rate
| compared to Canada, it's even more inconvenient. Ironically,
| people like you (who can't be bothered to do anything to
| prevent virus spread) are the reason we have to have all
| these damned restrictions.
|
| Despite the inconvenience to me (didn't see family for over a
| year) I support the border closures and restrictions fully. I
| am very proud of Canada's success in keeping death and
| hospitalization rates down compared to USA, and proud of
| Canadians' civic spirit and collective solidarity. That civic
| spirit is a big part of why I prefer living here.
|
| If you never want to be inconvenienced in your travels to and
| within Canada: _move back home_. You are opting into a
| certain amount of inconvenience by living abroad, that is
| your choice.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| I've had relatives come into the country from different
| countries many times, with no issues. They had to quarantine,
| one of them with us, but they were never denied entry, and
| even that is getting dropped progressively.
| vkou wrote:
| I am a Canadian living in America, and my non-Canadian co-
| workers have been driving up for ski vacations all through
| the omicron surge.
|
| Nobody's barred from going anywhere. Go get your shots.
| jagger27 wrote:
| Canadian citizens are always free to re-enter Canada.
| ars wrote:
| jeromegv wrote:
| You seem misinformed, Canada does allow "recovered from COVID"
| as a way to bypass testing requirement when you enter Canada
| through the borders. Source: https://travel.gc.ca/travel-
| covid/travel-restrictions/covid-...
|
| Canada also has no vaccine passport. Vaccine passports are
| decided by provinces and every provinces is free to choose
| criteria of their choice for the passport or if they want a
| passport at all. Not every provinces have a vaccine passport
| anymore.
| ars wrote:
| From the link you gave:
|
| "What is not accepted as a fully vaccinated traveller
|
| Recovered from COVID-19 with only one dose
|
| If you've recovered from COVID-19, you still need at least 2
| doses of an accepted COVID-19 vaccine or mix of 2 accepted
| vaccines."
|
| And Canada does have a vaccine passport, for example, you
| can't go to WalMart of Costco without vaccination.
| zulban wrote:
| Maybe soon, but not yet. Hospitals are still stretched, mostly
| by unvaccinated patients. If provincial passports included
| covid recovered, many people who haven't yet gotten infected
| would have an incentive to get infected.
| DoctorOW wrote:
| From the article you linked: > For one, the new report was
| based on data only through November, before the U.S. booster
| campaign really took off. It also looked at data during the
| Delta wave and does not account for the surging Omicron
| variant.
|
| The study doesn't take other variants into account. This is
| important because later findings reflect the unvaccinated would
| have immunity from just the one variant and not all of them
| uniformly. The language would have to be "recovered from all
| COVID variants" and the protesters have absolutely no interest
| in health or science.
| ars wrote:
| > the unvaccinated would have immunity from just the one
| variant and not all of them uniformly
|
| And "the vaccinated" have immunity from just one protein,
| from one variant, which is even lower.
|
| If anything recovered people have better immunity, not worse.
|
| The best strategy right now is to get vaccinated, and also
| get Omicron - then you have the best of both worlds, without
| the risk. But someone who took the risk, and recovered, is
| perfectly safe.
| DoctorOW wrote:
| That's literally not true though:
| https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/covid-
| varian...
| ars wrote:
| I read your link and there is not a single word about
| people who recovered. So what exactly is it meant to
| refute?
| native_samples wrote:
| Even worse, it's immunity to a spike that hasn't been
| around for years now. The vaccines were developed for the
| 2019 strain. The idea that people who got it and recovered
| two months ago have less immunity than a vaccinated person
| is based mostly on statistical biases in the way public
| health agencies measure effectiveness, that can create the
| appearance of (temporary) effectiveness in water.
| bentcorner wrote:
| Source data from that article:
| https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/pdfs/mm7104e1-H.pdf
|
| That article is misleading, because it's comparing hazard
| rates of people who have had COVID before and were
| unvaccinated versus people who didn't have COVID before and
| were vaccinated. Best case scenario are people who are
| vaccinated and had COVID. Worst off are people are not
| vaccinated and hadn't had COVID.
|
| I've seen this claim elsewhere and it's frustrating because
| people just read the headline and regurgitate this nonsense.
| So much for "doing your own research".
| DoctorOW wrote:
| Is that not intentional? To compare the immunity gained
| from having the virus, to the immunity gained from
| vaccination?
| newsclues wrote:
| You cannot trust the news.
|
| Only verified facts.
|
| There is a information war and the propaganda is being amplified
| on full blast.
| [deleted]
| dade_ wrote:
| It appears this was the result of terrible security at
| GiveSendGo. I'd agree it could be state sponsored, but I am
| certain there are enough people with the skills to do this on
| their own downtown Ottawa (even if it turned out they work for
| the gov't).
|
| That said, I am thoroughly disappointed the Federal gov't and
| much of the media coverage. They have done nothing but make the
| situation worse. I think it is intentional (I assume some
| political end game), but their actions are fueling even more
| outlandish conspiracy theories.
|
| The most insane was that all layers of government did nothing to
| stop the noise (truck horns), but it ended when a 21 year old who
| simply filed a court injunction and the protesters complied.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/injunction-ottawa-granted-1...
|
| I've watched the Toronto Police Service play their A game through
| this entire debacle. They shut down the protests hard and were
| clearly visible throughout the city with heavy trucks and busses
| to block roads and maintain control of the situation.
|
| https://www.cp24.com/video?clipId=2376560
|
| The idea that Justin Trudeau needs martial law to deal with
| parked trucks is outrageous. This isn't an insurrection
| (reference to an MOU was removed from their website and I agree
| with the assertion that it was a poorly thought out idea, not a
| threat), there is no violence, and no obvious danger. The last
| person to use martial law was Trudeau's father (Pierre) for an
| actual terrorist attack and kidnapping (the diplomat was later
| murdered). Get some proper police on the job and drop mandates
| for ineffective measures and let's move on with our lives.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| >there is no violence, and no obvious danger
|
| While there is no outright violence, there is torture to local
| residents, there was attempted arson, there is continued
| intimidation and harassment of those wearing masks, there is
| intimidation of visible minorities, there are attacks on
| businesses....
|
| Is that enough to convince you that the situation is out of
| hand and than stricter action is needed?
|
| The protestors haven't complied with not honking.
|
| Please, please be careful with how you frame this. There was
| severe inaction and dangerous incompetence displayed by Ottawa
| police but please don't spin this as the federal government
| overstepping.
|
| Edit - within seconds of posting, this is downvoted. Truly a
| shameful display by the folks here.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| > _Edit - within seconds of posting, this is downvoted. Truly
| a shameful display by the folks here._
|
| Please don't comment on downvotes like this; it's not useful.
| throw10920 wrote:
| Complaining about downvoting is straight-up against the HN
| guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| :
|
| > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It
| never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
|
| And in this case, it's more than a little manipulative.
| "Truly a shameful display by the folks here."
| ctoth wrote:
| > While there is no outright violence, there is torture to
| local residents
|
| Why did you use the word torture here? Torture is a well-
| defined word with an accepted meaning. Do you feel that it is
| appropriate? Or are you looking for an emotionally-loaded
| reaction? Can I also claim that my loud college neighbors are
| torturing me when they stay up too late on the weekend? Of
| course I can, but it sure is disingenuous to anyone who has
| actually been tortured.
| BeefWellington wrote:
| > Can I also claim that my loud college neighbors are
| torturing me when they stay up too late on the weekend? Of
| course I can, but it sure is disingenuous to anyone who has
| actually been tortured.
|
| If they did it for a week straight after you'd lodged
| several noise complaints and had the police go nowhere,
| yeah, I think that would qualify. It's certainly not the
| most severe type of torture but intentionally depriving a
| person of sleep and attempting to damage their eardrums
| qualifies.
|
| If your loud college neighbours were setting off a train
| horn outside your building, repeatedly, I think you'd
| expect them to be handled by the police (if not arrested)
| pretty immediately.
|
| If your loud college neighbours were assaulting people in
| the streets, shouting death and rape threats at you, you'd
| probably consider them violent.[1] Another post of mine has
| many more links if you're interested.
|
| I'm not sure how much actual violence is required for a
| protest to become violent. Is it just that nobody's been
| killed yet? That seems to be what everyone is waiting for
| and I sincerely hope we don't get there (thankfully it
| looks like things may be defusing today).
|
| [1]: https://globalnews.ca/news/8594809/covid-freedom-
| convoy-otta...
| [deleted]
| cf100clunk wrote:
| If a person or group knowingly deploys sonic psychological
| warfare techniques upon innocent people, they are
| torturers. In this context, the constant blaring of truck
| horns is deliberate and not meant in kindness or frivolity.
| The negative psychological effects upon the local residents
| are now well known and well documented.
| ctoth wrote:
| Okay but the thing about torture is, in order to be
| torture you must be prevented from leaving the situation.
| Are they literally trapping people in their homes? No.
| You just really really don't like them and so are trying
| to delegitimize their protest with use of loaded
| language. Torture means things like having your skin
| pealed off or your fingernails removed. Torture means
| things like being imprisoned and repeatedly being made to
| feel as though you are drowning. Constant honking must
| certainly be annoying! But as far as I'm aware, protests
| are supposed to be uncomfortable and annoying. This is
| not torture. It's like terrorist. The word terrorist now
| means somebody did a thing that the government doesn't
| like. Are we going to do this same thing with torture?
| Because I'm not here for it.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| Oh, it's fine, because everyone can afford to go to a
| hotel for a few weeks, then, right?
| ctoth wrote:
| Me pointing out that this is not torture, that torture
| means specific things and that this doesn't meet the
| commonly-accepted definition of torture, followed by you
| glibly inserting the phrase "its fine" is a perfect
| microcosm of why online discussion is doomed. Torture
| means you are in pain and you cannot stop it. Not by
| getting on the bus and riding across town, not by wearing
| earmuffs, it means that you, the person being tortured,
| cannot stop the torture. This is clearly not the case
| when there is noise outside your house that you dislike.
| Words have meanings, let's please stick to using them.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| You want to be absolutely pedantic about torture "meaning
| specific things", and where "commonly-accepted
| definitions" happen, conveniently, to mean what's more
| convenient to you.
|
| Dictionaries, on the other hand, define torture as
| "inflicting pain and suffering on".
|
| The UN Conventions on Torture in no way specify that
| imprisonment, formal or otherwise, is a required
| component for something to be defined as torture.
|
| So my opinion is that your vision of torture in this
| instance is far more narrow, because it fits your
| worldview more.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| I mean maybe, "that last paranormal activity movie was
| absolute torture."
|
| I assume (charitably) they mean it in a hyperbolic sense
| blast wrote:
| I didn't downvote you, but you're using extreme language like
| "torture" (I know noise and sleep deprivation are associated
| with torture but this sort of verbal escalation is not
| objective) and the only in-depth reporting I've seen on the
| arson thing makes it seem completely debunked:
| https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490557119816425474 (or
| https://twitter.com/jonkay/status/1490525934948081666 - I'm
| not sure what the right link is). That's a biased source, but
| I can't find anything comparably factual that is taking the
| allegation seriously. At a minimum, it's not fair to repeat
| words like "arson" as if they are established facts when at
| best they are highly disputable.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| > this sort of verbal escalation is not objective
|
| Objectively, the sonic onslaught of their constantly
| blaring truck horns is equal in effect to well-known
| psychological warfare tactics. It is fair and accurate to
| call it torture in this context.
| rpeden wrote:
| Even worse, it wasn't just truck horns. There were
| several trucks driving around with train horns installed.
| And plenty of the apartments in Centretown are right up
| against the street.
|
| I don't think making 80+ decibels of noise 10 feet from
| people's windows is even an okay way to protest, no
| matter who you are or what your cause is.
|
| I used to live in this neighbourhood, right by Somerset
| and Metcalfe. Protests happened all the time. Some of
| them were anti-government, even. And none of them
| launched this kind of sustained assault against innocent
| citizens. I get the sense a lot of them think they're
| sticking it to the liberal elite, or something like that.
| But really - Centretown is (or was when I lived there, at
| least) one of the more affordable parts of Ottawa.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| 80? I had heard in some cases it'd been measured at up to
| 140dB.
| rpeden wrote:
| I wouldn't doubt that for the train horns, especially
| outdoors. ~80db inside an apartment is what I heard
| personally from someone I trust who lives there still, so
| that's usually what I go with.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| i would challenge you to test your opinion by spending even
| seven days living in downtown Ottawa. You would then
| seriously reconsider my labelling of 18 hours of illegally
| loud truck horns as torture as being "extreme language".
| FireBeyond wrote:
| Weeks on end of horns outside your window are absolutely
| torture. They are demonstrably linked to mental health
| issues. It's not a verbal escalation. We are talking about
| people who have literally attached train and ship horns to
| vehicles and are using them incessantly.
|
| That passes beyond "nuisance". Extreme situations can
| utilize extreme language.
| dekerta wrote:
| It's absolutely torture. I don't live in Ottawa, but I was
| eating at a restaurant near the trucker protest that sprung
| up in my city two weeks ago, and I nearly lost my mind just
| hearing the horns blaring for an hour straight. I can't
| even imagine what the poor people in Ottawa are going
| through.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"...I know noise and sleep deprivation are associated with
| torture..."
|
| You could stop right there. It is torture. Especially when
| you consider old frail people.
| purephase wrote:
| They're honking for 16-18 hours per day. For people that
| live near the convoy, they've been able to sleep for over
| two weeks due to this. I have friends and family affected
| by this. I'm fairly sure this constitutes torture if you
| don't have the resources to up and leave your residence for
| days at a time in order to sleep.
| moralestapia wrote:
| dang wrote:
| Please do not posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait
| comments to HN. You can make your substantive points
| without that.
|
| If you wouldn't mind reviewing
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and
| taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart,
| we'd be grateful. Note this one:
|
| " _Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive,
| not less, as a topic gets more divisive._ "
| cf100clunk wrote:
| No, a dog barking 16-18 hours per day is illegal almost
| everywhere in Canada and the person(s) responsible face
| fines, at the least.
| moralestapia wrote:
| cf100clunk wrote:
| A line in a Traveling Wilburys song goes "everything is
| legal as long as you don't get caught." That's what came
| to mind as I read your reply, which tacitly agrees with
| my parent comment.
| pvg wrote:
| It's specifically about Jersey, a sentiment older than
| the song and one that also pops up in _Hamilton_.
| moralestapia wrote:
| That's a nice quote, thanks.
|
| I'm arguing a slightly different thing, that authorities
| are quite aware and tolerant of the situation in many
| cases, so they don't care to do much.
| purephase wrote:
| moralestapia wrote:
| Yes, I am. Noise pollution has the same effect on people
| regardless of the source.
|
| You pretty much proved my point by diminishing the one
| particular source of noise that you personally don't
| consider "as bad".
| smokelegend wrote:
| 14-16hrs? Seems a bit weak.
|
| How about 24hrs? Now that's torture, or as we Americans
| like to claim "enhanced interrogation"... [Enemy
| combatants were exposed to sensory deprivation which
| included 24hrs of American heavy metal music and 24hrs of
| flood spotlights to prevent sleeping.]
|
| I get it, after living peacefully before these protests
| started it might appear as torture, however it is again
| just annoying behavior not torture. As mentioned by other
| comments, ear plugs are a thing, sleeping pills could
| help, glass of warm milk perhaps.
|
| You have options in this scenario, unlike when you are
| being physically tortured, you have no options but to
| endure.
| purephase wrote:
| moralestapia wrote:
| Chill, no need to curse to get your point across as it
| only paints a poor image of you.
|
| Anyway, noise is noise, whether it comes from a truck, or
| a dog, a party, or w/e. If you're unable to understand
| that, then I guess this discussion is futile.
| rpeden wrote:
| As a counterpoint - it's _not_ the same regardless of the
| source. This is happening in my old neighbourhood, and
| several of my friends still live in the area so I 've
| heard firsthand accounts.
|
| It's not just trucks blowing their air horns. That would
| have been annoying. A bunch of them installed train horns
| and during the first week were honking them 24/7. It was
| loud enough to cause hearing damage indoors. I'd be
| impressed if a dog could bark that loud.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar hell.
| I understand that emotions are high on this topic, but
| comments like this are a noticeable step in precisely the
| wrong direction, and strongly against the site
| guidelines.
|
| If you wouldn't mind reviewing
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and
| taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart,
| we'd be grateful.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > They're honking for 16-18 hours per day. For people
| that live near the convoy, they've been able to sleep for
| over two weeks due to this. I have friends and family
| affected by this. I'm fairly sure this constitutes
| torture if you don't have the resources to up and leave
| your residence for days at a time in order to sleep.
|
| Are earplugs not a thing in Canada?
|
| Calling honking torture is ridiculous hyperbole. That
| word should be reserved for the extremely serious kinds
| of acts it's normally used to describe, lest it become
| effectively meaningless.
|
| Words themselves don't have any power, and if you try to
| harness the power of a concept by misusing a word that
| refers to it, you just cause the word's definition to
| shift and to weaken its association to the concept
| (potentially making that concept much harder to access
| and refer to).
| endemic wrote:
| Earplugs just deaden sound, they don't eliminate it.
| throw10920 wrote:
| I challenge you to find earplugs that can be worn 24h a
| day without any physical discomfort, provide 60dB of
| attenuation across a wide range of frequencies (these
| horns probably span low 100's of Hz to mid kHz), and are
| reasonably inexpensive.
|
| Even if you could find such beasts (which I don't think
| you can), then you have the problem that you effectively
| can't use your hearing. You thought that social
| interactions were hard with a mask? Imagine not being
| able to use your hearing _at all_.
|
| (yes, 60 dB is necessary because that's how much you'll
| need in order to sleep - the human ear has an incredibly
| large dynamic range and even 30 dB_SPL conversations are
| enough to keep some people awake for hours)
|
| As it stands, many of the residents near these protests
| are being subjected to low-level sleep deprivation, which
| is _literally_ torture (as in, used as such by
| organizations who actually want to extract information or
| confessions from people).
|
| To clarify - it's not _honking_ that 's torture, it's
| _sustained honking at a duration and intensity that will
| cause sleep deprivation and other psychological damage_.
|
| Completely independently of the _reason_ that these
| people are protesting - this particular means is not
| humane.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > I challenge you to find earplugs that can be worn 24h a
| day without any physical discomfort, provide 60dB of
| attenuation across a wide range of frequencies (these
| horns probably span low 100's of Hz to mid kHz), and are
| reasonably inexpensive.
|
| > Even if you could find such beasts (which I don't think
| you can), then you have the problem that you effectively
| can't use your hearing. You thought that social
| interactions were hard with a mask? Imagine not being
| able to use your hearing at all.
|
| > (yes, 60 dB is necessary because that's how much you'll
| need in order to sleep - the human ear has an incredibly
| large dynamic range and even 30 dB_SPL conversations are
| enough to keep some people awake for hours)
|
| Those sound like overkill requirements meant to totally
| mute the horns like they're not there, when the realistic
| problem is to reduce the noise to the point where someone
| could sleep.
|
| I kind of find it hard to believe that's not possible
| with and indoor location + silicone ear plugs (and maybe
| white noise if you're very sensitive).
|
| > As it stands, many of the residents near these protests
| are being subjected to low-level sleep deprivation, which
| is literally torture (as in, used as such by
| organizations who actually want to extract information or
| confessions from people).
|
| Again, calling it "literally torture" is ridiculous
| hyperbole. A noisy neighbor is being _annoying_ to his
| neighbors, not torturing them.
| fallingknife wrote:
| Do you have a source on any of that?
| jeromegv wrote:
| If you have family or friends in Ottawa, you know.
|
| Here's an interview with a MD in downtown Ottawa, speaking
| of her and her staff at a medical clinic getting harassed
| in the street for wearing a mask.
| https://www.npr.org/2022/02/12/1080354245/health-care-
| worker...
| adolph wrote:
| I read the story. The MD does not claim she or her staff
| has been harassed. Her one claim is "And a lot of people
| have been harassed, have been told to take their masks
| off." The MD also claims "I would say that a huge
| 18-wheeler is not a peaceful thing to have in the middle
| of your city" which is weird since large trucks are a
| primary and pervasive mode of transporting goods nearly
| everywhere. The story also does not disclose that the
| interviewee is an Ontario public employee, essentially a
| spokesperson for the government position, which is in
| opposition to the protestors.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| > The MD also claims "I would say that a huge 18-wheeler
| is not a peaceful thing to have in the middle of your
| city" which is weird since large trucks are a primary and
| pervasive mode of transporting goods nearly everywhere.
|
| I must have missed where large trucks sit for days on
| end, engine running, horns blaring endlessly as part of
| their "useful public utility".
|
| > The story also does not disclose that the interviewee
| is an Ontario public employee, essentially a spokesperson
| for the government position, which is in opposition to
| the protestors.
|
| This is blatant bias on your part. Doctors employed by
| the state to provide healthcare are not government
| spokespeople, however you're trying to spin it here.
| adolph wrote:
| The interviewee does not assert that "large trucks sit
| for days on end, engine running, horns blaring
| endlessly," just that "a huge 18-wheeler is not a
| peaceful thing."
|
| I deny that pointing out the obvious and undeclared
| conflict of interest is bias, blatant or not. The
| physician is articulating the same position as her
| employer who is in opposition to the protestors. Would it
| be fair for a Facebook employee to comment on an issue
| regarding their employer and not disclose it, especially
| if they worked in a portion of the company directly
| involved in the issue at hand?
|
| EDIT:
|
| Also, the parent comment to mine claimed of the NPR
| interview: "Here's an interview with a MD in downtown
| Ottawa, speaking of her and her staff at a medical clinic
| getting harassed in the street for wearing a mask."
|
| This description is not true of the interview text
| available at the link when I read it.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| I assume of course that you're equally vehement that any
| protestor who is employed by the government or military
| also makes sure to point out that they're a government
| employee and that they're speaking against their
| government's policies as an individual, just so we don't
| confuse them for spokespeople too, yes?
|
| We would not want confusion and ambiguity there either,
| after all.
| purephase wrote:
| I've said this before. There's a strong libertarian bent to
| HN and I'm not surprised if there's a large contingent of
| this site that actively supports the convoy. There's people
| here that are strong supports of Peter Thiel, if that's any
| indication of where their sympathies lie.
|
| But, most of them are not residents of Ottawa, and the lived
| experiences of people in that city, particurlarly those who
| have had run ins with the protesters, or struggled through
| the 16-18 hours / day of honking, had to walk around or be
| harrassed by them, see the awful imagery of Trump,
| Confederate etc. flags being waved around, the yellow star
| morons etc. cannot simply be dismissed as bad or inaccurate
| media.
|
| A city is being held hostage by an extreme minority and, even
| in OPs post they mention that the Toronto police handled it
| properly, but question the admonition levied against the
| Ottawa police.
|
| The Ottawa police are complicit in this now as well as city
| council. They sat on their hands while allowing this to
| spiral out of control, and now want to play the victim or
| blame others (e.g. blaming counter protesters today).
|
| It doesn't matter if you side with the protest or not. The
| sheer fact that they've been allowed to have large impact on
| the city and it's residents, for this long, is proof that the
| so-called lack of freedom that they're fighting for is simply
| not the bogeyman they've made it out to be. Especially if
| you're white.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| > I've said this before. There's a strong libertarian bent
| to HN and I'm not surprised if there's a large contingent
| of this site that actively supports the convoy. There's
| people here that are strong supports of Peter Thiel, if
| that's any indication of where their sympathies lie.
|
| Wait and you've extrapolated this from claims of a downvote
| made in the first hour after posting a reply on a
| politically controversial topic? HN is a huge site, are you
| really expecting unanimous political views? This is par for
| the course on these threads.
| hanselot wrote:
| j_walter wrote:
| >A city is being held hostage by an extreme minority and,
| even in OPs post they mention that the Toronto police
| handled it properly, but question the admonition levied
| against the Ottawa police.
|
| >The Ottawa police are complicit in this now as well as
| city council. They sat on their hands while allowing this
| to spiral out of control, and now want to play the victim
| or blame others (e.g. blaming counter protesters today).
|
| >It doesn't matter if you side with the protest or not. The
| sheer fact that they've been allowed to have large impact
| on the city and it's residents, for this long, is proof
| that the so-called lack of freedom that they're fighting
| for is simply not the bogeyman they've made it out to be.
| Especially if you're white.
|
| This is really not much different than how Portland handled
| the BLM protests in 2020. 100 straight nights of extreme
| protests with violence against police and federal
| buildings. Only difference is this is during the night and
| many neighborhoods were terrorized as it moved from
| downtown. Not much media coverage of this other than
| conservative journalist Andy Ngo who has himself been
| violently targeted for simply recording and publishing
| video of what is happening.
| pessimizer wrote:
| A major difference is that the police would issue
| dispersal orders, then attack the BLM protesters
| indiscriminately, or call curfews which basically
| declared open season on any kind of protester,
| journalist, civilian, doing anything outdoors after X
| o'clock. The police were shooting rubber bullets at
| people sitting on their own porches.
|
| This is not how Ottawa is being handled, this is not how
| January 6th was handled, and if BLM protesters decided
| they were going to shut down an international bridge that
| provided 1/3 of trade with the US, that wouldn't have
| made it a hour before an extreme response was taken.
|
| If the trucker protest were treated like the BLM
| protests, you'd see people blinded and dead, and it would
| be completely torn apart every night to have to be
| reassembled the next day. At least compare it to Occupy,
| although they were in a park instead of blocking roads.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| >this is not how January 6th was handled
|
| January 6th police had real bullets and shot and killed a
| person. You could argue Jan 6th was handled more strictly
| than BLM.
| j_walter wrote:
| The police protected buildings from being set on fire and
| their officers being attacked with lasers and fireworks.
| Dispersal orders were only given AFTER the protests
| turned violent.
|
| Comparing 100+ nights of protests and riots with Jan 6th
| is ridiculous...one was night after night of the same
| thing and having a plan in place to defend and the other
| is a single day where the police lost control and they
| actually shot someone with real bullets.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| > A major difference is that the police would issue
| dispersal orders, then attack the BLM protesters
| indiscriminately, or call curfews which basically
| declared open season on any kind of protester,
| journalist, civilian, doing anything outdoors after X
| o'clock. The police were shooting rubber bullets at
| people sitting on their own porches.
|
| Whilst also advising Proud Boys and Three Per Centers of
| their "enforcement plans", texting them to "take cover"
| and that they'd be given an "all clear" when they come
| back out.
|
| Or being advised that although their leaders had active
| arrest warrants, that they would not be arrested at any
| protests that were "supervised" by Portland Police
| Department, so they should "feel free" to come to
| protests.
| j_walter wrote:
| They were in contact with both sides of the
| conflicts...only one side made their plans clear and also
| applied for permits. I'm not saying it was the right
| call, but one side was violent toward police and the
| other was not...not a huge surprise that the police would
| choose to work with them.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| The Proud Boys applied for a small fraction of permits.
|
| And if you are ordering a protest to disperse, you don't
| tell one side to go home. If you have a curfew (leaving
| aside opinions there), it's not a curfew for one side.
|
| If you're telling people who have warrants for their
| arrest that you will actively not only NOT arrest them
| but protect them, that's not working with them, that's
| working for them. Which is unsurprising in PDX, given how
| many LEOs are members of those same organizations.
|
| Nothing in what you said was a good justification. You're
| right though, it's not a huge surprise that police would
| choose to work with militant right wing organizations.
| purephase wrote:
| Not much media coverage? I saw coverage of it all the
| time. It was covered as if it was the end of civilization
| and it continues to push the narrative today that BLM
| protests were burning cities to the ground across the
| country.
|
| I'm not sure where you're getting this whole idea that
| there wasn't much media coverage on it. A quick google
| search shows literally thousands of news stories about
| it.
| j_walter wrote:
| Main stream media...I live near Portland and the local
| news covered very little about it. 30 second clip of the
| peaceful start...and little about the destruction and
| chaos that was seen night after night.
|
| Eventually even the local news started showing what was
| going on when their crew were attacked covering the
| story. However this happened many times before and they
| simply left and didn't cover what was happening.
|
| https://katu.com/news/local/police-declare-riot-near-
| justice...
| oo0shiny wrote:
| Andy Ngo isn't exactly a reliable source.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Ngo#Credibility
| FredPret wrote:
| But I'm sure his Wikipedia page is
| autoexec wrote:
| The nice thing about Wikipedia is that claims are
| sourced. I had no idea who this guy was, but I looked
| over the statements critical of his credibility and at
| first glance many of them are sourced at heavily biased
| media outlets which isn't encouraging. I'm not digging
| into it enough to say those articles are wrong, but I'd
| say the clams that he isn't credibile on his wikipedia
| page aren't looking very convincing so far, or at the
| very least that view on the guy doesn't seem widely
| accepted by mainstream sources.
| FredPret wrote:
| Since even a sourced and cited claim can be utterly
| bogus, it is actually worse. Because it looks
| authoritative at a glance when there are many citations
| next to a claim.
|
| But some citations are nature.com, and some are People
| Magazine, and they all get the same superscript number.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Then if those claims are bogus, it becomes a matter of
| your sources vs. their sources, and it ends up all being
| a matter of faith and perhaps gut feeling.
| autoexec wrote:
| It's not just their sources vs your sources, it's about
| the data those sources have, where/how they got it, and
| how much of it you can verify.
|
| You have to evaluate the evidence and the sources to
| decide which is more credible. Some things you have to
| take on faith, but that doesn't make it a dice roll. When
| it matters you can apply some critical thinking skills,
| and at least be able to justify the position you've
| settled on.
|
| In this case I don't care enough about this Andy guy to
| dig into it, but I was able to determine that I couldn't
| justify forming an opinion about his credibility using
| what Wikipedia was presenting to me. If I wanted to get
| into the woods, I'm sure I could end up with an informed
| opinion based on more than a gut feeling.
| j_walter wrote:
| He posts video...how is raw video not a reliable source?
| He certainly has an agenda, but also posts things that
| many will not. He was not afraid to post video when the
| actual news teams were threatened and attacked during the
| riots (by specific groups that you can't really talk
| about since they don't exist...it's just an idea).
| [deleted]
| AzzieElbab wrote:
| what is wrong with listening to "minorities". Doesnt BLM
| represent a minority, especially in Canada? Also, a couple
| of confederate and nazi flags do not define these protests.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| False equivalence? The behaviour of these recent
| protestors is the crux of the issue.
| purephase wrote:
| Hahaha.. this is a hilarious comment.
|
| These people are not the minority. They're self-professed
| victimes of so-called tyranny that doesn't exist. The
| sheer fact that they're able to protest for this long, in
| this way, at the nations capital is ample evidence that
| this so-called tyranny they're fighting is a delusion.
|
| Equivocating that with the lived experience of millions
| of people who are fighting for true equality is truly a
| laughable position.
|
| Honk, I guess.
| adolph wrote:
| Canada is confusing. The below two comments come from the
| same person, likely Canadian, referring to other
| Canadians who are an extreme minority who are not the
| minority.
|
| > > A city is being held hostage by an extreme minority
|
| > These people are not the minority.
| purephase wrote:
| My mistake. In my first comment, I should have referred
| to the truck convoy protesters as perceiving themselves
| as having minority status. I made this comment before
| people starting to compare these protests to BLM, which
| is for a an actual minority group.
| redml wrote:
| thats a lot of mental gymnastics you're doing there to
| avoid that cognitive dissonance
| dahfizz wrote:
| You literally called them a minority:
|
| > A city is being held hostage by an extreme minority
| AzzieElbab wrote:
| minority does not need to be defined by race sex or
| religion. What about people who had covid and reluctant
| about vaccines? All that word soup is irrelevant. Getting
| fired after having worked through the heights of epidemic
| is a serious "lived experience" and also "an ample
| evidence" of bureaucratic overreach. Anyway, bunch of
| provinces including Ontario already cancelled vaccine
| mandates and vaccine passports, only real holdouts are BC
| and Quebec. Trackers already won. The government can
| easily deescalate but choosing not to due fear and spite
| purephase wrote:
| Getting fired for not getting vaccines was a line that I
| didn't agree with.
|
| However, the vast majority of organizations that did this
| were private though, and it was the organization that
| implemented these policies. I'd hardly equate that with
| government overreach, and especially not the federal
| government if you're a nurse/healthcare worker, or worked
| in a local municipal government.
|
| My point is that these protests don't have anything to do
| with vaccines, mandates or some perceived minority status
| that not following them bestows (which, again, is a
| choice..). If that was the case, they would not be in
| Ottawa. There might be some people paying lip service to
| these ideas, but the majority of the people protesting
| are self-labelling as minorities due to some perception
| of tyranny from the federal government that does not
| exist.
|
| Unless you're a federal employee that was fired due to
| your position on vaccines (over 95% of federal employees
| are vaccinated) then protesting in Ottawa doesn't make
| any sense.
| roenxi wrote:
| > ... and it was the organization that implemented these
| policies ...
|
| That may not be true. It is common for governments to
| implement the _really_ unpleasant policies by using
| businesses as an enforcement arm (eg, surveillance via
| banks and telecom companies). It bears asking why
| companies have all, in coordination, picked up a set of
| policies that are both ineffective and divisive - it is
| entirely on the table that it is because of government
| pressure in the form of OH &S guidelines.
|
| Firing unvaccinated people barely does anything w.r.t.
| changing the odds that people get COVID eventually. We've
| seen ample evidence that being vaccinated doesn't change
| the transmissible situation. So why are companies doing
| this? Their employees are still going to turn up and
| transmit COVID. By this point, the anti-vaccine types
| have probably caught COVID and gained natural immunity
| anyway so these policies would represent companies
| shooting themselves in the foot. It is possible they'd do
| that of their own initiative but it is nevertheless a bit
| weird.
|
| > My point is that these protests don't have anything to
| do with vaccines, mandates or some perceived minority
| status...
|
| Why do you think these protests have just mushroomed up?
| Have trucker protests been an ongoing thing in Canada for
| many decades?
| AzzieElbab wrote:
| Majority of the BLM weren't killed by a cop standing on
| their necks. Your point was understood and invalidated
| armagon wrote:
| It seems pretty clear to me that the protests have
| everything to do with the vaccine mandates.
|
| Why should only people who are fired be allowed to
| protest? Most of the truckers are vaccinated, but they
| are protesting for the right of those who aren't to be
| allowed to do their job.
| Dig1t wrote:
| I'm a total moderate, I try very hard not to view these
| things through a partisan lens. As a free thinking human I
| feel no need to have my opinions dictated by any group of
| people. I think your comment is one that has some merit WRT
| the police's actions and what they might be able to do
| better, but it is framed in such a hostile, inflammatory,
| extremely partisan way. You criticize this website for
| being bent on some partisan streak that you don't like and
| needlessly bring race into the conversation when this
| entire thing has nothing to do with race whatsoever.
|
| > is proof that the so-called lack of freedom that they're
| fighting for is simply not the bogeyman they've made it out
| to be
|
| It's disingenuous to equate the lack of freedom that they
| are talking about with the lack of freedom to protest. They
| are not the same thing, the protesters are talking about
| vaccine mandates specifically.
| newsbinator wrote:
| > I've said this before. There's a strong libertarian bent
| to HN and I'm not surprised if there's a large contingent
| of this site that actively supports the convoy. There's
| people here that are strong supports of Peter Thiel, if
| that's any indication of where their sympathies lie.
|
| To me the political bent of HN isn't relevant when reading
| a comment. I'd rather take each comment on its own merits,
| without guessing or assuming what the ideology of the
| commenter would have to be.
|
| I recently lived in a country in which wearing the wrong
| color socks is grounds for instant prison, so I prefer when
| my government's monopoly on violence errs on the side of
| restraint, as in the case of these protestors.
|
| Should individual protestors get shut down when they harass
| mask-wearing doctors or honk horns in the middle of the
| night? Obviously.
|
| But there is some fuzzy line in which we let protestors do
| otherwise illegal or fineable things that we don't let
| individuals do.
|
| I could be convinced that skin color is a factor as you
| mentioned, but at the moment I have no idea.
| SauciestGNU wrote:
| I don't know what the answer is with these protests, but
| criminalizing them isn't the answer. I'm an active
| leftist and do a lot of mutual aid and protesting. I've
| been beaten by cops and had them deploy munitions against
| me. Giving cops more latitude to deal with this protest
| movement will mean that they deploy even more force
| against me the next time I'm politely asking that they
| stop murdering people.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| They had farmer protests in the Netherlands with tractors.
| I think we may have invented it?
|
| https://www.politico.eu/article/angry-dutch-farmers-swarm-
| th...
|
| Anyway society loved it at first until they caused too many
| traffic jams. Public opinion turned and it was over
| quickly. If you are a work at home software dev these kind
| of protests don't affect you until Amazon stops delivering.
| [deleted]
| 99_00 wrote:
| Looking at the live streams, I see visible minorities going
| to the protests and supporting the truckers and the
| atmosphere seems festive and celebratory more than anything
| else.
| RIMR wrote:
| ctoth wrote:
| I'm just trying to understand here, you're advocating that
| people lose their livelihoods for donating to a protest
| movement you don't approve of? Not participating in illegal
| action, not physically hurting anyone, just giving money to
| the wrong people online?
|
| Can you possibly think of any circumstances where this sort
| of principle might backfire?
| FireBeyond wrote:
| > not physically hurting anyone
|
| It's a good thing 140dB horns for 18 hours a day for weeks
| comes with zero risk of physical harm to people's hearing,
| apparently.
| RIMR wrote:
| Shutting down roadways into and out of cities is a little
| bit more than just a disagreement. These people are
| criminals.
| [deleted]
| hamaluik wrote:
| I'm curious where you're getting the talking points from?
| You're literally the third person I've heard from today
| suddenly blaming the media for what is going on while
| minimising the damage the protests are causing.
| JacobThreeThree wrote:
| Why couldn't three people independently reach the same
| conclusion?
| smnrchrds wrote:
| > _there is no violence, and no obvious danger_
|
| A number of illegal weapons, high capacity magazines, and a
| large quantity of ammunition were seized in a blockade in
| Alberta. I would not be surprised if there are people with
| weapons in Ottawa as well, waiting for an opportunity to
| strike.
|
| https://globalnews.ca/news/8618494/alberta-coutts-border-pro...
| rpaldb wrote:
| tablespoon wrote:
| > A number of illegal weapons...were seized in a blockade in
| Alberta.
|
| > https://globalnews.ca/news/8618494/alberta-coutts-border-
| pro...
|
| Your link doesn't describe anything as "illegal weapons." It
| just says "long guns" and "handguns" which are both pretty
| broad terms that undoubtedly encompass guns that are legal in
| Canada.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| By definition a handgun not in storage or in transport to a
| shooting range is an illegal weapon in Canada.
| klyrs wrote:
| Most hand guns are prohibited[0] weapons in Canada. You
| need explicit authorization to transport [2] prohibited
| weapons. There are pretty strict rules[3] for how they're
| to be transported, too. You're not just allowed to drive
| around with handguns rattling around in the car, this isn't
| the US. Large capacity magazines are illegal in almost all
| cases [1]. Even that machete might be illegal given the
| context [4].
|
| [0] https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/classes-firearms
|
| [1] https://www.grc-rcmp.gc.ca/en/firearms/maximum-
| permitted-mag...
|
| [2] https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/authorization-
| transpo...
|
| [3] https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/storing-
| transporting-...
|
| [4] https://cubetoronto.com/canada/are-machetes-illegal-in-
| canad...
| HWR_14 wrote:
| A machete may be considered a weapon in certain contexts,
| but that's not a unique law. The US also reclassifies
| things as weapons once they are used as weapons (in that
| instance.) Attack someone with a machete and it suddenly
| becomes a deadly weapon.
| klyrs wrote:
| Canada bans a lot of weapons for looking "scary" --
| nunchuks and butterfly knives for example (both of which
| are rather notoriously more dangerous to the person
| wielding them than anybody else). Americans who come to
| Canada are frequently surprised by the different laws up
| here. Yes, an attack with a machete renders it illegal in
| both countries. A concealed machete is illegal in Canada,
| regardless of intent or use. I'm not so sure about the US
| (especially with the variance among state laws)
| smnrchrds wrote:
| Handguns require a license to transport (ATT). Even if they
| were acquired legally (and that's a very big if because of
| RPAL), their presence at the border is very illegal.
| nec4b wrote:
| These are the people of the truck convoy who protest: https:/
| /twitter.com/MichaelPSenger/status/149273926633759539...
|
| Does it look like they are all packing and waiting to strike?
| smnrchrds wrote:
| The tweet is deleted. Regardless, I am sure not "all"
| protesters are looking for violence, but the ones who
| brought weapons and ammo certainly did. And I am sure not
| all of them have been found and arrested.
| newsclues wrote:
| Painting with broad strokes is dangerous.
| joseph8th wrote:
| "How dare you use my words and actions against me!"
| alex_anglin wrote:
| When asking if anyone in the protest had firearms, a
| journalist was ejected from a news conference. Would have
| been a good opportunity to disavow violence, but here we
| are. In this case, it's not so much painting with broad
| strokes as much as judging by the company they keep.
|
| Source: https://twitter.com/alexboutilier/status/1493319507
| 846176769...
| slavboj wrote:
| Surprisingly, despite "a willingness to use them against
| police", they didn't use them against police, so it's
| likelier than not that the story is made up or
| mischaracterized.
| threeseed wrote:
| A lot of people will say they are willing to do something.
|
| But when their life is on the line they suddenly
| capitulate.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| What a convenient thing to happen on the very same day he is
| expected to announce the taking away of civil liberties of
| Canadians, and give themselves the right to seize property
| and equipment.
| vzidex wrote:
| Definition, martial law: Martial law is the temporary
| imposition of direct military control of normal civil functions
| or suspension of civil law by a government, especially in
| response to a temporary emergency where civil forces are
| overwhelmed, or in an occupied territory. [1]
|
| The key phrases are "imposition of direct military control of
| normal civil functions" and "suspension of civil law by a
| government".
|
| The Canadian Emergencies Act, which was invoked by the Liberal
| government today, specifically states the following: "For
| greater certainty, nothing in this Act derogates from the
| authority of the Government of Canada to deal with emergencies
| on any property, territory or area in respect of which the
| Parliament of Canada has jurisdiction" [2].
|
| I'd do a deeper reading but I'm a bit lazy, but my
| understanding is that the EA does not allow, in any way, a
| shift in governance that could be described as "martial law" -
| where the military is in control of civil functions and can
| create or remove laws as military leadership desires. Even with
| the EA invoked, the federal government still controls the
| Canadian military (but can be assisted in enforcing civil law
| _by_ the military).
|
| I'm no fan of Trudeau either, but we should seek to be precise
| when discussing hot situations like this. People can get very
| inflamed off of internet posts and the idea that we're under
| "martial law" is riling people up.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law
|
| [2] https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/e-4.5/page-1.html
| pyuser583 wrote:
| My understanding is that international law requires nation
| have some form of martial law.
|
| The idea is that if your nation is "hosting" a battle field,
| and the police start arresting belligerents and charging them
| with civilian crimes, the military can override them and say
| "you can't charge invading soldiers with a crime for
| honorably doing their duty" - they must be treated as POWs,
| not criminals.
|
| For example, if Russia is attacking Toronto, and a Toronto
| Police Officer comes across a wounded Russian soldier with an
| AK-47, she can't charge the soldier for possessing an illegal
| weapon. The soldier would have to be treated as a POW.
|
| This means the military must - must! - be able to say "this
| area is under martial law".
|
| I doubt this applies to the current situation.
|
| But if Canada is as diligent as they claim to be about
| International law, they need to have the ability to declare
| martial law.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| "Must"
|
| That's now how that works, at all.
|
| A soldier doesn't need to be on a declared battlefield to
| get battlefield treatment.
|
| Being a member of a military in uniform is enough.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > I'd do a deeper reading but I'm a bit lazy, but my
| understanding is that the EA does not allow, in any way, a
| shift in governance that could be described as "martial law"
| - where the military is in control of civil functions and can
| create or remove laws as military leadership desires. Even
| with the EA invoked, the federal government still controls
| the Canadian military (but can be assisted in enforcing civil
| law _by_ the military).
|
| Is that martial law is? What you're describing sounds more
| like a coup to me ("where the military is in control of civil
| functions and can create or remove laws as military
| leadership desires").
|
| My understanding of martial law (very colored by being an
| American) is basically direct enforcement of domestic
| government authority by the military with little or no
| recourse to normal civilian oversight (e.g. courts). However,
| the military isn't acting independently, but is still taking
| orders from some civilian leader in some part of the
| government.
| CryptoBanker wrote:
| Both of the situations you described can be accurate
| simultaneously.
|
| There are two levels of civil government. The military can
| override the civil functions of the lower level (the
| states) while still taking orders from the upper level (the
| federal government)
| cf100clunk wrote:
| Please apply what you've just said directly to
| contemporary Canadian governance and polity.
| [deleted]
| arcticbull wrote:
| In ordinary functioning of government and civil society
| there's an effective separation of the army and the
| police in law enforcement. In the US, this is governed by
| the posse comitatus act. Canada doesn't really have an
| analogue, the government can request the assistance of
| the army when lower levels of government are unable to
| perform their duties sufficiently to maintain order.
|
| The use of the emergencies act makes it clear that this
| is one of those situations and allows the government to
| utilize the military to support lower levels of law
| enforcement.
|
| This is not martial law. This is not a coup. This is not
| unprecedented - after all Pierre Trudeau used the War
| Measures Act (predecessor to the Emergencies Act) to
| restore order in the October Crisis.
|
| This is more like a state calling in the national guard.
|
| The answer to lower levels of government not being able
| to maintain order isn't to roll over. It's to bring in
| more help. That's what's being done here. And it's
| governed by the Charter. Much more stringently than the
| War Measures Act ever was.
|
| [edit] We cannot allow a small, loud, group of
| individuals to overturn the democratic will of the people
| as decided in the last election. This is un-democratic,
| unfair, and must end immediately. We can talk about
| ending restrictions in the open, but not with a boot on
| our throats. This occupation must end before we decide on
| what to do next. I remind you of the interview Pierre
| Trudeau gave re: the October Crisis.
| Pierre Trudeau: Yeah, well there's a lot of bleeding
| hearts around who just don't like to see people with
| helmets and guns. All I can say is, go on and bleed, but
| it's more important to keep law and order in this society
| than to be worried about weak-kneed people who don't like
| the looks of a soldier's helmet. [1]
|
| I highly recommend listening to the longer speech [2].
| Far more interesting than any speech given by Justin,
| IMO. Obviously a different situation, but with similar
| roots: wanting to overthrow a democratically elected
| government because they don't like the lawful, legal,
| constitutional decisions.
|
| They can have their say in peaceful protest, in court or
| at the next election - and not before.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeTsQQ22Uwc
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHaoBD-eakk
| imwillofficial wrote:
| "government because they don't like the lawful, legal,
| constitutional decisions." This is a massive
| mischaracterization of your political opposition.
| arcticbull wrote:
| If it's unlawful, illegal or unconstitutional then
| avenues exist within the courts to resolve their
| grievances do they not? I'm led to believe that rule of
| law continues to prevail within Canada.
|
| [edit] Not just that, Trudeau operates a _minority_
| government, meaning two other parties could gang up and
| oust them at basically any time. And yet, he remains in
| office. I think this really speaks to how small the vocal
| minority is.
|
| They've brought guns, ammo, knives [1], built
| encampments, stashed them full of diesel and propane [2],
| disrupted trade, jobs, lives, supply chains, threatened
| violence. Harassed and intimidated healthcare workers.
| And for what? This is not your average picket, and it's
| gone on more than long enough.
|
| We're all frustrated, we're all tired of this. I'm open
| to revisiting the health measures, but not like this.
|
| [1] https://news.sky.com/story/freedom-convoy-guns-
| seized-in-rai...
|
| [2] https://www.newsweek.com/ottawa-police-seize-fuel-
| truckers-a...
| Cd00d wrote:
| > "drop mandates"
|
| That little throw away at the end, where we just give in to
| people making demands outside of democratic methods says it
| all, I think.
| JackFr wrote:
| That protests are 'outside of democratic methods' says quite
| a bit itself.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| I didn't see (nonfringe) calls for martial law. I saw calls for
| the military to tow the trucks because the actual truck towing
| companies the police normally subcontracted to were
| unwillingness to piss off their customer base/risk of violence
| from truckers/agreement with the protests. And, of the various
| government agencies, only the military had access to the heavy
| vehicle movers that were needed.
|
| > I think it is intentional (I assume some political end game)
|
| Most media doesn't have a political endgame. They have a bias
| for sensationalism and clickbait.
| ahthat wrote:
| Media coverage of these protests is vastly negative. I remember
| only a few years ago (2020) when protests were undoubtedly
| violent across the United States. Video evidence of this
| violence as well as mass crowd driven theft was widely
| documented and distributed. I have yet to see video evidence of
| any violence from freedom convoys, and the ground based video
| evidence I have seen appears vastly peaceful. This does not
| mean there isn't violence. Indeed, blockading roads could be
| construed as violence based on an argument for different
| definitions of the word. Yet, from my personal observations, it
| seems that the protests are essentially peaceful, citizens
| living in these cities are in support in large numbers, and
| this is running counter to the narrative being espoused in
| mainstream media sources, with the possible exception of Fox
| News. More or less it seems as though media sources are
| mischaracterizing these protests overall. Furthermore, it can
| be effectively argued that forcing workers to get vaccinated or
| lose their jobs is inherently discriminatory and perhaps even
| anti-freedom. But these are only my personal observations and
| conclusions, be what they are, a single individuals insight
| into the times occurring around him, debate as you will.
| mplewis wrote:
| There's a lot to unpack here, but Ottawa residents are
| largely _against_ the truckers occupying the roads of their
| city.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Support in large numbers and largest against are not
| necessarily contradictions. There can be a majority against
| something and still have a large minority for something.
| For example, if 1 in 4 support something, that 250k Ottawa
| residents.
| gengelbro wrote:
| How about citizens of Seattle when the CHAZ was operating?
| Were they majority for that?
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Considering that the CHAZ was in Capitol Hill, I assume
| the people in that neighborhood were supportive. As for
| the rest of us in Seattle, most of us never even visited
| or saw the place (how often does someone who doesn't live
| in Capitol Hill visit Capitol Hill?), so it was just
| something we would see on CNN if we were bothering to
| watch the news at all (it was cool to see FoxNews have
| some of our buildings burning down even if it wasn't
| true, their media narrative was pretty messed up).
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| >> citizens living in these cities are in support in large
| numbers,
|
| what are you possibly basing this on?
|
| >> But these are only my personal observations and
| conclusions
|
| Oh, opinion. So you complain that the media coverage is
| "vastly negative" because... you feel it is.
| danudey wrote:
| > it seems that the protests are essentially peaceful,
| citizens living in these cities are in support in large
| numbers
|
| This is not true in any of the relevant cities; it is an
| extremely vocal, and very small, minority of people who are
| in support, and I can guarantee you that most of the few
| people who do support it would change their minds if it was
| their neighbourhood people were honking in all night.
|
| Note that over 90% of Canadian truckers are already
| vaccinated, and similar percentages of the large urban
| centres being harassed are vaccinated as well. Most people
| are entirely against these "protests", and will be happier
| when they're over.
|
| > Furthermore, it can be effectively argued that forcing
| workers to get vaccinated or lose their jobs is inherently
| discriminatory
|
| It cannot be effectively argued, because it is not
| discriminatory; "people who refuse to believe in medical
| science" is not a protected class. If you need to get a
| background check to get a job, that is not discriminatory. If
| you need to have a license to do a job, that is not
| discriminatory. If you need to be vaccinated to do your job
| (not just COVID, but otherwise), that is not discriminatory.
|
| > and perhaps even anti-freedom.
|
| Freedom has limits. You don't have the freedom to endanger
| others.
|
| Freedom does not mean "I get to eat my cake and have it too";
| it means you're able to make a choice. Do you want to get
| vaccinated and do your job, or do you want to refuse to get
| vaccinated and leave that job so that you aren't endangering
| others?
|
| What these people are protesting is that they made their
| choice and have to deal with the consequences of that choice.
| If you don't want to get a driver's license, you can't
| protest that you should still be allowed to drive a car; if
| you don't want to get a passport, you can't protest that you
| should still be allowed to travel internationally. The rules
| and restrictions are clear and up-front.
|
| Also: I have friends in Ottawa, and am hearing multiple
| reports of people being harassed or threatened by these
| "protesters" (many of whom are acting more like terrorists,
| trying to intimidate everyone around them) for something as
| simple as wearing a mask.
| alspacka wrote:
| 11 people were arrested on weapons charges at the Alberta
| blockade (handguns and body armor) and one person was
| arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit murder for
| trying to run over police with his tractor
| giantg2 wrote:
| That says a lot if that's what a violent protest looks like
| in Canada when the "peaceful" ones in the US involve
| millions of dollars in property damage and numerous
| injuries or deaths.
| flyingcircus3 wrote:
| While we're on the subject of the fallacy of relative
| privation, you'll surely acknowledge that the closure of
| the Ambassador Bridge for a week is a couple orders of
| magnitude worse than the 2020 protests. After all, the
| appropriate measure of a protest is dollars lost, and
| hundreds of millions of dollars of goods cross the bridge
| every day.
| danudey wrote:
| Well yeah, it's not like we lost a hockey game or
| anything.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Vancouver_Stanley_Cup_
| rio...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Vancouver_Stanley_Cup_
| rio...
| jterrys wrote:
| That's still a considerably small number of people
| considering the protesters number in the tens of thousands
| II2II wrote:
| > Furthermore, it can be effectively argued that forcing
| workers to get vaccinated or lose their jobs is inherently
| discriminatory and perhaps even anti-freedom.
|
| From my understanding, this is only the case for truckers
| crossing the border. Most of the vaccination mandates I have
| heard of have been at the provincial or municipal levels and
| only affect employees of the government or publicly
| controlled institutions (health, education, police). Even
| then, it is typically on unpaid leave. Relatively few
| mandates have come from Ottawa, simply because it isn't their
| jurisdiction. They aren't leaving much room for human rights
| complaints, particularly since I believe employers were
| already within their rights to demand certain vaccinations. I
| very much doubt that it would even qualify as discriminatory,
| since it does not affect protected classes.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| > citizens living in these cities are in support in large
| numbers
|
| Source? The US polls I've seen show 60% support for vaccine
| mandates, which is probably why the government feels so
| confident in shutting down the protests. The media I've seen
| isn't portraying the protestors as violent but as a nuisance.
| danudey wrote:
| It does irritate me that the media are referring to it by
| their own name, "The Freedom Convoy", when it should be
| something more neutral and objective, like "the Harassment
| Convoy".
| giantg2 wrote:
| Do the polls have how many support the protest? If 20% do,
| then that would be 200k residents in the city. I consider
| 200k, or 20% of the population to be a large number. Still
| a minority, but a large minority.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > Media coverage of these protests is vastly negative.
|
| Keep in mind that in Canada a lot of the media is state owned
| and operated. So the media coverage might reflect more on
| what the ruling party wants the people to think of the
| protests.
|
| On the livestreams they had music blasting and children
| playing in the snow near the trucks. Doesn't look like an
| "insurrection", as the state media described it, by any
| stretch (unless they fear snowballs!).
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| > Keep in mind that in Canada a lot of the media is state
| owned and operated. So the media coverage might reflect
| more on what the ruling party wants the people to think of
| the protests.
|
| Sure, there's the CBC but the rest of our media is not
| state owned, so that's a weird claim to make.
| ghettoCoder wrote:
| You're partially correct. Don't forget the goodie bag the
| media gets to "support journalism" which basically is a
| huge pot of money. Or Telford bragging she could get
| articles written published to smear to smear someone. It
| not too hard to make the connection between money and
| favours now is it?
| lowkey wrote:
| Except in this case the major private Canadian media all
| participated in taking something like $600 million
| Canadian dollars in subsidies from the government. Justin
| Trudeau even had the audacity to joke about having bribed
| the media. [0]
|
| I think it is reasonable to consider the possibility that
| these handouts may have biased the media to the point
| where they may be reluctant to bite the hand that feeds
| them.
|
| [0] https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2022/justin-
| trudeau-60...
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| I'm not arguing there's not some possible influence, I
| don't know if you can say that with any media in any
| country, I was just taking exception to the blatantly
| false "state owned and operated".
| kukx wrote:
| Well they live in large part on state money according to
| VivaFrei.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > On the livestreams they had music blasting and children
| playing in the snow near the trucks. Doesn't look like an
| "insurrection",
|
| Except for the existence of snow, it sounds like things
| I've seen around fighters in the Palestinian intifada. I
| think you have an unrealistic view of what an insurrection
| looks like.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > That said, I am thoroughly disappointed the Federal gov't and
| much of the media coverage. They have done nothing but make the
| situation worse. I think it is intentional (I assume some
| political end game), but their actions are fueling even more
| outlandish conspiracy theories.
|
| Didn't the father do the exact same thing back in the 70's?
|
| Of course there's political gains, as they say, never get a
| crisis go to waste.
| beebmam wrote:
| What sort of laws would you support against people that hack
| websites like this?
| imwillofficial wrote:
| We have sufficient laws, it's the uneven enforcement that I
| have a problem with.
| TrispusAttucks wrote:
| WHAT!
|
| People standing up for their rights!
|
| Cue the media attack dog and smear campaign. We need some
| corporate approved misinformation to get ahead of this.
|
| It's such an obvious formula at this point. Does anyone still
| not see through it?
| 99_00 wrote:
| Also the Ambassador Bridge blockade was ordered by the court to
| clear on Friday midnight. Police cleared it Sunday with some
| arrests, some resistance but not much else.
|
| Pretty standard when it comes to Canadian protests.
| BeefWellington wrote:
| > The most insane was that all layers of government did nothing
| to stop the noise (truck horns), but it ended when a 21 year
| old who simply filed a court injunction and the protesters
| complied.
|
| > https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/injunction-ottawa-
| granted-1...
|
| This did not work though:
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/protesters-violate-cou...
|
| The court order is just a threat and the Ottawa Police Service
| appear to not care to enforce the order.
| ryandrake wrote:
| I think one point that the last two years has nailed home
| (around the world) is that how protestors are treated has
| little to do with what their tactics and behavior are, and
| more to do with simply whether their message ideologically
| aligns with the police.
|
| If the police agree with some group of protestors, then
| they're treated with kid gloves, and can get away with
| anything. The police will throw their hands up and say "nope,
| can't possibly enforce the law anymore, so sorry!" and stand
| back. If the police _do not_ agree with some other group of
| protestors, they 're going to get beaten, pepper sprayed, and
| shot with rubber bullets, no matter how they behave. All of a
| sudden, enforcement is no problem.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| Things I've seen this year.
|
| People who Molotov cocktailed a police van with people
| inside. Let off with probation.
|
| Police beat an unconscious person until they died. Internal
| investigation cleared them of wrongdoing.
|
| It definitely matters what the protest is
| supporting/fighting.
| FireBeyond wrote:
| Portland Police Department is just one particularly
| egregious example. Numerous leaked text messages between
| officers and the Proud Boys. Letting them know to take
| cover before tear gas is deployed and that they'll be
| told when it's "all clear" to come back out, letting them
| know that though some of their leaders have active
| warrants for arrest, that they are clear to come to the
| protest because there's no "other agencies" involved in
| enforcement, so there's no risk.
| rpaldb wrote:
| ar_turnbull wrote:
| > "there is no violence, and no obvious danger."
|
| This is false and I would expect better of HN posters.
|
| A group of the protestors locked the doors to a downtown
| apartment building with handcuffs and then attempted to set
| that building on fire.
|
| Although nobody has been injured yet, there have been plenty of
| weapons seizures as well as incidents of protestors ramming
| police vehicles and/or attempting to arrest police officers.
|
| Residents of Ottawa are scared to leave their homes for simple
| tasks like buying groceries because the protestors have
| assaulted vulnerable individuals for wearing masks.
|
| The entire thing is a tinderbox just waiting for one unhinged
| protestor to make a wrong move. And even if we escape this
| incident peacefully, there are the toxic diesel fumes from
| idling trucks which have been polluting downtown Ottawa's air
| for the last two weeks and are likely to become trapped in the
| urban environment.
| coolso wrote:
| > Residents of Ottawa are scared to leave their homes for
| simple tasks
|
| Kind of like almost everyone in the US and Canada for a
| period of almost a year thanks to governmental policies?
|
| Another way to look at things is these protests will
| indirectly help flatten the curve, especially if they go on
| for two more weeks.
| blast wrote:
| > A group of the protestors locked the doors to a downtown
| apartment building with handcuffs and then attempted to set
| that building on fire.
|
| What evidence is there that that was real? An allegation was
| made on Twitter, but only thing I've found that digs into the
| details looks like a complete debunking (see links at
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30336974). It's from a
| biased source and I'm open to any factual refutation, but
| I've looked for contrary reporting that digs into the
| details, and haven't found any. Only a lot of repetition of
| the original allegation.
| honkdaddy wrote:
| The arson thing was pretty thoroughly debunked. "I would
| expect better of HN posters."
| Naga wrote:
| When was that debunked? The last I heard the police were
| investigating. I even saw video from it.
|
| https://ottawacitizen.com/news/police-arson-unit-probes-
| otta...
| honkdaddy wrote:
| A direct quote from the Ottawa police chief:
|
| "We don't have any direct linkage between the occupation
| --the demonstrators--and that act." [1]
|
| [1]https://www.cpac.ca/episode?id=fa5721d6-af8b-48d9-9848
| -73dcf...
| ar_turnbull wrote:
| honkdaddy wrote:
| That's fine, you have every right to your suspicions, but
| unless you feel you have better information about the
| incident than the police that investigated it, I'm not
| really sure what your comment adds. The GP made the claim
| that protestors in Ottawa tried to burn a condo down and
| a quote from the police chief proves this to be false.
|
| This is one of several accounts I use because my personal
| identity is tied to my main account, and accusations like
| the above concern me when I know there are vigilantes out
| there who find joy in doxing people with different
| political leanings than them. Rest assured I've been a
| member of this community since 2014, I'm not one of the
| dreaded "alt-right trolls" some users are so comically
| paranoid of.
|
| On that note, I'm not really sure what's alt-right about
| repeating a quote from an investigating officer, but then
| again, most people who use that phrase aren't being
| intellectually honest anyway.
| ar_turnbull wrote:
| Naga wrote:
| Oh, so the 'debunking' is not on whether or not an
| attempted mass murder/arson occurred, but that there is
| no "direct linkage" between the occupation and the crime.
|
| What that likely means is that they don't know who the
| people in the video are. It seems pretty likely to me
| that it's related to the occupation, especially since
| there was a 'confrontation' earlier that day with
| residents of the building. It's not like buildings are
| burnt down in Ottawa every day.
| JacobThreeThree wrote:
| >It's not like buildings are burnt down in Ottawa every
| day.
|
| No building was burnt down.
| Naga wrote:
| In the country I grew up in, trying and failing to commit
| crimes is still a crime. The act itself is the crime, not
| the success of it. Unfortunately these days it seems like
| the better determinant of whether something is a crime is
| someone's political affiliation.
| totony wrote:
| Nitpick but parent said "no building were burnt down" and
| not "no crime was comitted"
| honkdaddy wrote:
| That's great that it "seems pretty likely" to you, but
| that doesn't seem to be the case. Unless you have
| concrete information which the OPS doesn't have, I don't
| think speculation is very useful here.
| [deleted]
| skinkestek wrote:
| Compared to the violence, burning and looting in front of the
| American election this is absolutely nothing and have only
| lasted a few days
|
| Those demonstrations were mostly peaceful according to those
| we are supposed to listen to, so obviously the current
| demonstrations are even more peaceful.
|
| Edit: I'm triple vaccinated myself and recommend it for
| everyone else, but if we have freedom to choose that also
| must include freedom to do what I think is less smart.
|
| In fact I think at this point the attempt to force people to
| vaccinate is scaring people away from it.
| pelasaco wrote:
| People still have their rights to do "dumb choices". I'm
| triple vaccinated, got omicron one month later of being
| vaccinated, still believe that the vaccine helped me to
| have it almost asymptomatically, but I'm ok with people
| saying that dont want to be vaccinated.
| skinkestek wrote:
| If it wasn't clear I think we agree very much.
| chucksta wrote:
| With a couple rouge agents being your definition of obvious
| danger, there can never be another protest. Apply that same
| logic to the protests a year before and see how it goes
| DocTomoe wrote:
| I feel like that is an understatement. This is not a few
| good old boys throwing a snowball. It's acts of arson,
| attempted murder, probably fits the definition of
| terrorism. And that's just the apartment building incident.
|
| And of course the protests a year before were in no part
| better.
| chucksta wrote:
| I didn't mention severity or intention on purpose. Even
| the most just causes have a few self-righteous assholes
| willing to justify the means
| roenxi wrote:
| Every large protest fits the definition of terrorism,
| especially I suspect from the perspective of the
| politicians that the protest is trying to pressure. This
| is why people have been arguing that the definition is
| misguided and far to broad pretty much since the
| inception of that definition.
| twofornone wrote:
| >A group of the protestors locked the doors to a downtown
| apartment building with handcuffs and then attempted to set
| that building on fire. For some reason the media failed to
| show the images in their stories, but the two arsonists on
| camera (not a group) had purple hair. With all the talk of
| white supremacist instigators at BLM riots, I wouldn't be
| surprised if this were a case of the opposite, anti-trucker
| instigators trying to give the protestors a bad name, and
| purple hair is more likely associated with the left...which
| ironically has taken a pro government stance on this issue.
|
| In any case afaik no actual tie to the protests has been
| reported.
| dghughes wrote:
| Add to that ER doctors needing police escorts to hospitals.
| Hospital staff told not to wear scrubs or anything that
| identifies them as hospital staff.
| zrglkjlkrh wrote:
| cde-v wrote:
| colechristensen wrote:
| zrglkjlkrh wrote:
| canadianeh2 wrote:
| i have a 4 year old daughter in ontario who has never seen her
| friends faces or her teacher's face. she eats outside even when
| it's -20. as of today, no end in sight for these rules. why? it's
| shameful. im surprised the civil unrest in canada isnt worse.
| synthos wrote:
| May I highlight this is your _very_ first comment on this
| website. Why did you suddenly decide to make an account and
| post your first comment here? Do you work in technology?
| bmarquez wrote:
| > Why did you suddenly decide to make an account and post
| your first comment here? Do you work in technology?
|
| I wasn't aware that only people who work in the tech industry
| were allowed to post on Hacker News.
|
| If you think someone is trolling, then email dang.
| synthos wrote:
| Thank you, I will email dang. Is the address dang at
| ycombinator dot com ?
| selimthegrim wrote:
| hn at ycombinator dot com
| xdennis wrote:
| Because some people don't feel safe in the software industry
| to make comments under a username tied to their public
| identity when it comes to Covid (or other polarizing stuff).
|
| I've been on this website for about a decade, but this
| account I use now is only 10 months old.
| synthos wrote:
| My comment or question was more rhetorical. There is a
| nigh-zero chance that the comment-OP responds to any of my
| questions or posts any more comments. I leave it to the
| reader to extrapolate why that is the case.
| bentlegen wrote:
| The only article I could find about "kids eating outside in
| the cold" is this one, which clarifies that "no, we won't
| be sending kids outside in the cold"[1]. If you can find
| one, let me know. I am a parent in Ontario and I've not
| heard a single anecdote about this from anyone.
|
| Regarding "as of today, there is no end in sight for these
| rules": there has been a plan in place for months outlining
| the key dates when mandates will be relaxed. Just hours
| before OPs comment, the Ontario government announced they
| will be accelerating that schedule by 4 days, and the
| vaccine passport will be retired in just 2 weeks.[2]
|
| Your comments re: new accounts are fair, but given the
| above I don't believe there is any truth to OPs comment, so
| I personally believe the account is intentionally created
| to spread FUD about the pandemic response in Canada and to
| create sympathy towards the convoy and its arguments.
|
| [1] https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/furey-school-
| board-ni...
|
| [2] https://globalnews.ca/news/8617879/ontario-covid-
| restriction...
| purephase wrote:
| Unless there's some crazy school board out there, there's no
| way they have kids eating outside when it's -20. Most school
| boards won't even have outdoor recess on days like that.
|
| I have 11 nieces and nephews in 5 different school boards in
| Ontario, and not one of them has these restrictions. They eat
| indoors, they can take their masks off at lunch, and during gym
| class. Their teachers regularly post videos for students to
| watch, with their masks off, so that they can have that level
| of interaction with their students.
|
| We still do play dates with kids too. And birthday parties,
| where we can opt to go maskless if everyone is tested and
| comfortable with it.
| suckmore wrote:
| I don't live in Ontario and don't have kids, so I don't have
| any personal experience. This section of Joel Lightbound
| speech stood out to me though. It is regarding the apparent
| quarantine measures in Quebec. I can't substantiate it, so
| maybe it is completely sensationalized.
|
| >In Quebec in January 22, we've locked up kids aged 6 to 10
| years old for up to ten days in windowless rooms. Kids who
| tested negative, who had no symptoms, who came in contact
| though, with someone who had the virus.
|
| Starts at 3:48
|
| https://youtu.be/xuASydTUatI?t=228
| sudosysgen wrote:
| No, this isn't the normal procedure. Kids aged under 12
| only have to quarantine for 5 days unless they test
| positive and have no symptoms, this is to happen at home,
| not at school, and only if it was a very close contact.
|
| It may have been an emergency where parents for some reason
| refuse to stay home with their kids and no alternative had
| been set up yet; but it absolutely is not the protocol.
| loginatnine wrote:
| It's a one of, a seriously screwed up one, but it's not the
| normal quarantine procedure. I have a lot of respect for
| Lightbound but his speech was a lot of measure dropping
| with no context and no alternative proposed. I do respect
| that we need to be united more though.
|
| https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/in-jail-teenagers-
| spent-10-days-...
| purephase wrote:
| I don't live in Quebec or have any knowledge of what is
| happening in that province, but this either sounds like
| there are mitigating situations that we're not aware of for
| this reaction, or an overreach by some board/school.
|
| In Ontario, we were asked to isolate at home if there was
| any close contact with COVID at school and use remote
| learning if it was available for your class.
| synthos wrote:
| Thank you. Schoolboard don't risk lawsuit from freezing
| children. Parent post is pure misinformation from brand new
| account with, quite honestly, the most eyerolling 'Canadian'
| name someone thought of.
| dang wrote:
| Comments like this will get you banned here, no matter how
| right you are or feel you are, or how wrong someone else is
| or you feel they are. If you'd please review the site
| guidelines and stick to the rules when posting to HN, we'd
| appreciate it. Your comment would be completely fine--and
| considerably more persuasive--without those beginning and end
| bits.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| trhway wrote:
| In 1830 in Sebastopol it similarly took 2 years of pointless
| quarantine for people to rebel
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol_plague_uprising
|
| The powers-to-be, civil and military, had great "business"
| going because of the quarantine by pillaging most of the funds
| the government provided for the city supplies (as the normal
| trade and supply was broken by the quarantine) while population
| was starving. The military doctors responsible for the
| quarantine received pay several folds higher than their usual
| pay. To maintain the supposed epidemic, ie. to generate
| sufficient number of deaths which were all chalked to plague
| even though in reality there weren't any plague cases, they for
| example forced people to sit in the sea in winter supposedly
| for public hygiene purposes, and naturally the malnourished
| population was getting ill and died in numbers. Anybody who
| showed any signs of any illness would be put into total
| quarantine into a hospital building with especially bad
| conditions which all but guaranteed the death.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| My buddy lives near Hamilton. The stuff his kids are going
| through is insane.
| purephase wrote:
| Yeah, I have 5 nieces and nephews and friends with kids that
| live and around Hamilton. Tell me what they're going through
| that's insane.
|
| Don't just drop comments like this without backing up your
| assertions, because it's false. Is it ideal for the kids
| right now? Fuck no. None of us want this. But to sell the
| narrative that there's a whole class of
| parents/teachers/administrators who are not trying their
| goddamned hardest to make this as easy on kids as possible,
| while stradling the line of what's responsible during a
| pandemic, is just belittling all of the effort being done for
| no discernable purpose at all.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| My oldest kid been going to in-class school since
| _September 2020_ [1]. Maskless since October 2021. She
| missed, in a year and a half, a total of two or three weeks
| of school. This is a blessing that my kid has received.
|
| I cant speak of your nieces.
|
| EDIT:
|
| [1] The year is correct, 2020.
| sequoia wrote:
| _NB for people outside Ontario: this is very likely a made-up
| untrue story. If parent commenter provides some details
| substantiating this unusual circumstance, I apologize in
| advance._
|
| What school district? This is nothing like what I've seen in
| the Toronto schools which tend to be more cautious due to
| population density here.
|
| I'm willing to believe this isn't a made up story, but am
| interested in details as this is very different from what I've
| heard or seen in Ontario.
|
| Also why can't your child see their friend's faces outside of
| school? This is all quite confusing.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| What? Covid is over. Everyone was unmasked yesterday at the
| Superbowl.
|
| I assume the premier's kids are going through the exact same
| restrictions. Socialized healthcare means you are all in this
| together right?
| dade_ wrote:
| The premier's daughter is definitely unmasked, and an adult
| as calculated by age:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krista_Haynes
| https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-anti-
| vac...
| boplicity wrote:
| My children in Ontario public schools eat inside -- always
| have. Strangely, when they eat, they even take off their masks
| and _see_ the faces of their classmates. Even more strange,
| they see their classmates faces even with masks on, just a
| smaller portion of their faces.
|
| Today is quite cold, so they're not having outdoor recess at
| all. They're staying inside. Eating inside. Maybe your school
| district has different policies?
| boringg wrote:
| My 4 year old goes to school every day in Ontario and plays
| with her friends and sees her teachers face. This is called
| misinformation, nice try troll.
| [deleted]
| synthos wrote:
| So your daughter has remote learning or not? You can't make
| both arguments without clarifying.
|
| If she was remote learning she knows her teacher's face. If she
| isn't remote now she knows her teacher's face
| armagon wrote:
| Presumably she goes to school in-person but everyone is
| wearing a mask.
| loginatnine wrote:
| Nobody eat outside, especially at -20C you're just lying.
|
| My 4 years old at the kindergarden doesn't wear a mask and
| neither does her classmates. She eats indoor every day.
|
| My 7 years old in first grade wears a mask indoor but not
| outdoor. She eats inside with all of her classmates, unmasked.
| busterarm wrote:
| I guess that's what counts as hacktivism these days. Doxxing
| working class people and their supporters.
|
| It's nice to see the left and right's true colors here and how
| easily they pulled back the veil of opposition to reveal their
| true contempt for the lower classes and the real class war
| underpinning everything.
|
| These last two years, I have seen so much scary authoritarianism
| from well-meaning people using their own moral righteousness as
| all the justification they need for oppression. I fear things
| will get worse before they get better.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| Being objective here:
|
| - 90 percent of Canada's truckers are vaccinated, so why are
| you using working class as a substitute for protestor, then
| using that to call this class warfare?
|
| - Don't you think working class people will care most about
| this list? The people with the most time to scour lists and
| make angry tweets probably most likely aren't UHNW
| individuals...
|
| - Don't you see the irony is claiming authoritarianism has
| landed under the guise of morality, then assigning morality
| based on party orientation? Somehow painting the right as
| working class victims, and the left as upper class aggressors?
| mardifoufs wrote:
| You can be vaccinated and be against the mandate.
| busterarm wrote:
| > then assigning morality based on party orientation? Somehow
| painting the right as working class victims, and the left as
| upper class aggressors?
|
| Actually you read that into that based on your own biases. I
| was deliberate _not_ to do this specifically. The
| establishment media and government mouthpieces, both left and
| right, have demonized the shit out of this protest and
| painted them as nazis, terrorists or any other fear word they
| can get away with.
|
| Truly independent journalists have been painting a very
| different picture by doing the things that traditional media
| won't do: long form interviews with protestors and ordinary
| Ottawans.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| I don't get this...
|
| You're saying it's my bias that the protestors are right
| leaning, and therefore the attackers are left?
|
| Isn't that just an open fact? You omitting it doesn't make
| it not true...
| busterarm wrote:
| > Isn't that just an open fact?
|
| No, it isn't. Not in their own words. If you've only been
| watching CBC/CNN, well, that's a big part of the problem
| then.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| This doesn't feel like a reply in good faith.
|
| I mean it's easy enough to see the political aspect here
| isn't tied to the political leanings of news source:
|
| https://www.foxnews.com/media/freedom-convoy-trucker-
| canadas...
|
| I got the impression you were browbeating me for not
| intentionally ignoring very plain context as you did, and
| you seem to be confirming that.
| busterarm wrote:
| Not a reply in good faith?
|
| I stated from the beginning that this is a class issue
| and not a left/right one. You in your very first reply
| said "being objective here" and then went on some screed
| about how this is obviously left wing vs right wing
| politics.
|
| Then I stated that if you look at the only actual
| interviews being done with these people and hear them in
| their own words they say that this is not a left wing vs
| right wing thing here and you say that I'm commenting in
| bad faith.
|
| Not anywhere did I tell you to refer to Fox News as a
| source for content. You picked that source entirely on
| your own to suit your argument. As myself and others have
| mentioned in the thread, the only long form interviews
| being done with these people are being done by
| independent journalists on youtube.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| > I stated from the beginning that this is a class issue
| and not a left/right one.
|
| And you are blatantly wrong. You omitted mentioning
| left/right when talking about a conservative protest,
| that does not change the fact it's a conservative
| protest.
|
| You're certainly free to keep floundering about this but
| it won't change the simple reality:
|
| _Freedom Convoy is a largely conservative protest, as it
| is largely speaking to conservative talking points._
|
| -
|
| That doesn't mean _every person_ there is a conservative,
| it does not mean being against vaccine mandates makes you
| a conservative, _it simply means the people most
| represented by the tenants of the convoy are
| conservatives_.
|
| You _are_ commenting in bad faith because either you don
| 't know enough about this subject to realize it's a
| right-oriented movement... or you're aware of this but
| intentionally trying to bury that fact to force a pretty
| unrelated diatribe.
|
| > Not anywhere did I tell you to refer to Fox News as a
| source for content
|
| You tried to blame my source of news for a take not at
| all tied to news articles, which was ridiculous.
|
| To humor you I chose one that was opposite of the ones
| you mentioned, the source of news does not change the
| reality that this is a conservative movement.
| hammock wrote:
| I'm pretty sure OP is explicitly NOT assigning/painting left
| and right, but rather saying with the "pulled back the veil
| of opposition" comment that left vs right is an
| illusion/artifice, and the struggle is actually upper vs
| lower class.
| BoorishBears wrote:
| I'm confused, aren't the protestors and their entire cause
| very openly right leaning?
|
| Or am I getting browbeaten for making the connection _the
| specific_ working class are in fact right leaning...
|
| OP didn't write their comment in a vacuum. Can we not
| pretend that we're unable to apply context, like _a massive
| conservative movement sparked by conservative anti vaxx
| sentiment_.
| adamrezich wrote:
| > 90 percent of Canada's truckers are vaccinated
|
| is this actually true, or is this just an extrapolation of
| "90% of Canadians are vaccinated"?
|
| regardless, it's not as though only 10% of truckers are
| involved in this protest...
| BoorishBears wrote:
| According to the Canadian Trucking Alliance, 90% of
| truckers are.
|
| Also your wording is very confusing
|
| "only 10% of truckers".
|
| You realize it's not anywhere near 10% of truckers actively
| involved right? That it's a much lower number, with
| estimates putting them at most hundreds to a few thousand
| out of hundreds of thousands of truckers total
| busterarm wrote:
| Or that any less than 100% of truckers are working class.
| palijer wrote:
| This read [1] is pretty interesting in regards to the increase
| in support for authoritarianism that you are seeing. It could
| just be yet another evolutionary quirk that doesn't work in the
| modern age.
|
| Perhaps all the development into algorithms that make people
| click on things, when people click on things they are outraged
| about is a contributing factor to this if there is a link
| between perceived moral division and support for
| authoritarianism.
|
| [1] - https://www.psypost.org/2022/02/study-provides-first-
| evidenc...
| dang wrote:
| Please don't take HN threads in the direction of generic
| ideological flamewar. It makes the discussion much more
| predictable and repetitive, and usually much nastier. We're
| trying to avoid all that here, and you can make your
| substantive points without it.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| nathanaldensr wrote:
| To pick out _this_ comment when people upthread are calling
| what amounts to a party in downtown Ottawa _an insurrection_
| and an _attempt to overthrow a democratically elected
| government_ is pretty gross.
| dang wrote:
| I'm not picking out or singling out anybody's comments or
| any dogs in any of these fights. I'm trying to neutrally
| apply the site guidelines in a bog-standard way. Alas, that
| involves making mistakes--quite a few of them, because the
| quantity of material posted here doesn't allow for a close
| reading of everything, or even a quick reading of
| everything (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&pr
| efix=true&sor...).
|
| Nevertheless we need to try to prevent this place from
| being engulfed in flames, since that's (a) the default
| internet outcome and (b) everything HN is _not_ supposed to
| be for.
|
| One of many ways everyone can contribute to this effort is
| by resisting the reflex to assume that the moderators are
| secretly privileging the side you don't like. That's a
| common illusion (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page
| =0&prefix=true&sor...) but it makes things worse.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| jagger27 wrote:
| Hey Nathan, I see you don't live in Canada! You simply
| don't have a clue what's going on here if you think it's
| just a party.
|
| Multiple organizers have openly made those exact
| statements. You are misinformed.
| 0xy wrote:
| Do you have any proof, or is it isolated incidents of
| conveniently fully masked agitators waving Nazi flags?
| jagger27 wrote:
| I am talking about written and video statements made by
| organizers, not individual protesters.
|
| > conveniently fully masked agitators
|
| I shouldn't even bother responding to this kind of
| disingenuous bait. Of course it's all a massive psyop
| false flag conspiracy to smear the good names of working
| class Canadians in it for the good fight, right.
| dang wrote:
| I don't mean to pile on, having just responded to you in
| another thread
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30337439), but your
| comments on this topic are standing out as breaking the
| HN guidelines, and we need you to stop. Not only does
| this sort of flamewar contribute to destroying this
| place, it's not in anyone's real interest--including your
| own. I understand why emotions are super high on this
| topic, and legitimately so--but commenters here need to
| follow the site guidelines no matter how high their
| emotions are. Indeed, that's pretty much the only
| condition under which most of these guidelines are even
| needed in the first place:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
| busterarm wrote:
| It's because I called this all out for what it is and the
| moderation here has the thinnest veneer of fairness. A few
| very high profile posters get away with absolute murder on
| this board (especially in the form of personal attacks)
| because they pass the SV ideological purity test, but the
| rest of us have to keep our opinions to ourselves.
| dahfizz wrote:
| This is way off base. dang is an excellent and fair
| moderator.
| busterarm wrote:
| Usually. Nobody is perfect.
|
| There are certain topics and certain people that do not
| get moderated fairly and HN itself has certain biases
| that are encouraged or have opposition to them
| discouraged. If you know what they are, you know what
| they are.
|
| Bringing up HN's (often subtle but often not-so) bias
| against average poor people gets heavily moderated here.
|
| I give dang credit versus other moderators elsewhere who
| are explicitly biased and don't give a fuck how you feel
| about it.
| dang wrote:
| > If you know what they are, you know what they are.
|
| I don't know what they are! Perhaps you could clue me in
| at hn@ycombinator.com?
| dang wrote:
| I'd like to see links to the personal attacks you claim
| we're tacitly ok with. I can only think of one user who I
| carve out occasional exceptions for (for reasons other
| than you'd expect, and not someone very-high-profile).
| Other than that, I'm pretty confident in saying: no, we
| don't do that.
|
| All this has zero to do with "SV ideological purity
| tests". If you follow the moderation here, you should
| know that we have no such "tests" and couldn't care less
| about "purity". Unfortunately, one consequence of that is
| that everyone with strong ideological passions ends up
| accusing us of being enforcers for the side they don't
| like. It's clearly a cognitive bias and probably hard-
| wired in all of us: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all
| &page=0&prefix=true&que....
| busterarm wrote:
| This is anything but generic ideological flamewar here, dang.
| I'm clearly slamming both "tribes" for their tribalism here.
|
| More importantly, I'm someone deeply involved with the kinds
| of people that would have been able to perform this kind of
| hack and would do so for political reasons. I am directly
| calling their behavior awful.
|
| I'm explicitly condemning the doxxing of ordinary people for
| their political activity and frankly am shocked that you
| would even suggest that to be against the rules or even
| controversial.
| dang wrote:
| Ok, fair enough. On closer reading, I think I pattern-
| matched your comment the wrong way!
|
| (That said, it's still rhetorically in the flamewar style
| and that's the wrong style for HN. We want _curious_
| conversation here.)
| seneca wrote:
| > Ok, fair enough. On closer reading, I think I pattern-
| matched your comment the wrong way!
|
| Just want to say I respect and appreciate the humility
| here. It's easy for a moderator to just shut down
| disagreement.
| purple_ferret wrote:
| Yes, it's very idealistic to think 'hacktivists' would take the
| upper ground here in what is already a very dirty fight.
|
| I mean you have 61% of donors not even being Canadians. They're
| funding a movement that shut down a major commerce corridor
| into the US, directly affecting the US economy.
|
| To say this is about the 'working class' is naive. I mean you
| think Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, was tweeting
| support of it because he loves the working class?
| 0xbadc0de5 wrote:
| To be fair, the US has roughly 10x the population of Canada.
| So any support from the US is going to appear outsized unless
| interpreted on a per-capita basis.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| A large number of donors for BLM weren't from the US. Do you
| also support doxing them?
| purple_ferret wrote:
| I don't support doxing anybody. I just don't believe the
| narrative that the truckers and their supporters represent
| the oppressed working class.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Isn't this freedom? The right to donate and the right to know
| who did? Aren't these donations considered speech (US centric)?
|
| Or it only distasteful when your speech and opinion is public?
| I support _very robust_ free speech perspectives and freedom of
| speech rights, but there are also consequences for our speech
| (and the protections, in the US at least, are from your
| government only).
| fr33d0m_ wrote:
| Last I heard, "hacking" and DDoS attacks were illegal and
| against the law?
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| I don't endorse illegal activities, ever, full stop. I
| speak only of the results.
|
| Don't speak or support what you'd be embarrassed to see
| successfully attributed to you on the front page of a
| newspaper. Everyone's opsec streak runs out eventually, and
| anonymity should have bounds once you're influencing the
| public sphere (politics, in this case).
|
| (all of my political donations are public in FEC filings,
| even those I'm not required to disclose)
| dahfizz wrote:
| Do you also support exposing homosexuals who don't want
| to come out?
|
| People have a right to privacy. Stealing private
| information is the opposite of freedom.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Only in the case where the subject in question is pushing
| public policy to hurt homosexuals while secretly being
| one themselves. Public figures are held to a higher
| standard of accountability, and a loss of some privacy is
| expected depending on how far your life dips into public
| policy and influence. The purpose in this case would be
| to expose the malicious hypocrisy.
|
| You're Average Joe or Jane? Of course not, not under any
| circumstances. Their bedroom is their business only. I
| can't stress this enough.
|
| > People have a right to privacy. Stealing private
| information is the opposite of freedom.
|
| Higher level, to demand anonymity when pushing resourced
| ($$$) speech in a democracy is attempting to subvert the
| political system while avoiding recourse for bad faith
| intent and/or actions (my observations from a systems
| analyst perspective).
|
| Nuance and absolutism are incompatible.
| meany wrote:
| It sounds like you're saying the "ends justify the
| means".
|
| Perhaps its not embarrassment that makes people want
| privacy, but fear of retribution. Consider someone living
| during the McCarthy era in the US. Speaking up could be
| career ending, and in the long run, if things had
| progressed to a more authoritarian regime, life
| threatening.
|
| As one of the earlier posters said, I think many people
| see a slide into authoritarianism on both sides of the
| political spectrum. And it strikes me, that not being
| able to have secrets or privacy supports authoritarianism
| more than furthering democracy.
| bawolff wrote:
| So are much of the protest activity (not in general, but
| many of the specific activities of this protest are)
| busterarm wrote:
| One of the four pillars of ethical journalism is minimizing
| harm. Knowing if there are big and powerful donors may be
| important to surface, but outing your neighbors has no
| journalistic upside. It's all about tribe vs tribe at that
| point. If you publish this and target the mob at ordinary
| people, you deserve to be forced out of the profession, in my
| opinion.
| fr33d0m_ wrote:
| Where are the "ethical journalists" trying to publish the
| donors of...
|
| "GoFundMe allowed support for CHAZ/CHOP zone in Seattle
| even after murders"
|
| Black Lives Matter - Los Angeles
| https://www.gofundme.com/f/h2tqv-black-lives-matter-los-
| ange...
|
| ANTIFA Takes Donations (for NAACP)
| https://www.gofundme.com/f/antifa-takes-donations
| hans1729 wrote:
| For all you know, this was
| $state_actor_invested_in_western_chaos, so don't be ridiculous.
| How you derive the "true colors" of "the left and right" from
| the fact that someone decided this is an exploit worth
| investing in, seems to be beyond my understanding?
|
| edit: fascinating, this comment received positive votes and
| then went straight to -3 within seconds.
| rpmisms wrote:
| Per dang's nice request, let's open this up a bit and talk
| about _why_ this is happening. It 's now acceptable (and even
| lauded in the comments of this post) to doxx people with the
| wrong opinion. What changed to make otherwise reasonable people
| approve of this course of action? I want to know what societal
| switch flipped.
|
| I've seen it posited that it's due to the pseudo-anonymity of
| the internet, but that doesn't seem to fully explain it.
| Something has fundamentally changed to allow this level of
| dehumanization towards the "others".
| h2odragon wrote:
| we slaughtered religion, so people need _some_ fountain of
| self-righteousness to drink from. The nebulous "Consensus"
| we're supposed to hold holy now is thin and unsatisfying
| gruel so more fevered flavor is needed to mask the essential
| blandness.
|
| we used to be able to say "you're wrong about $X, but we can
| still work together on $Y in agreement." That's unfashionable
| now. We demand inhuman purity from our idols, de-idolizing
| them or de-historizing their imperfections as necessary to
| the dictates of the moment. We expect ideological harmony
| from our peers, or at the very least meek acceptance of our
| views without any backtalk. You can think differently, as
| long as you're quiet about it. and don't let anyone see
| evidence of your deviance.
| barbacoa wrote:
| Not everyone can work from home on their MacBook while
| wearing PJs. Let's be honest, the people who are part of this
| protest do not represent the socio-economic interests of
| those who make up HN. It really boils down to elitism.
|
| HN is mad that the working class is advocating for themselves
| and not busy delivering our Amazon packages and making us
| lattes.
| tux1968 wrote:
| > Something has fundamentally changed to allow this level of
| dehumanization towards the "others".
|
| Nothing has changed in the level of dehumanization. It's
| clearly a very human failing that has played out in history
| time and again. The only reason it feels more prevalent, is
| because we've turned it inward toward what used to be a more
| cohesive group. So we can ask why we're breaking apart, but
| there's no mystery about why we dehumanize the "others" -- we
| always have.
| Dig1t wrote:
| Interesting side thought, this whole debacle has made me see the
| real value of Bitcoin and other crypto currencies..
| acdha wrote:
| You mean where your support for a controversial political
| movement would be irrevocably public? If this list had leaked
| Bitcoin addresses, the next thing you'd see would be a report
| of everything else those addresses had been used for.
| kobalsky wrote:
| if I want to make an anonymous donation I can send BTC to any
| big player that consolidates outgoing transfers from their
| hot wallets and you won't have a chance in hell of knowing
| who sent it.
|
| of course you can't move millions or illegal monoey like that
| (you can't use it like a tumbler) because it would be
| traceable if coinbase or whoever get subpoenaed
|
| but you on this case you would be safe from persecution from
| supporting some political activism that gets ppl frothing in
| the mouth and want to make other ppl lose their jobs.
| acdha wrote:
| That's like saying you could give cash to someone else and
| then there won't be a link. We know that most people, even
| fairly committed users, do not have perfect opsec and cut
| corners for convenience. If you're proposing something for
| general use, you need to make your plans about what's safe
| for the median user rather than the 99th percentile.
| Dig1t wrote:
| True, but its much harder to dox this number of people if all
| you have is a big list of Bitcoin addresses. It requires
| significantly more work, plus it's also harder to stop the
| disbursement of funds like what happened with the Canadian
| government freezing bank accounts and transactions with this
| campaign.
| acdha wrote:
| > True, but its much harder to dox this number of people if
| all you have is a big list of Bitcoin addresses.
|
| This is also true of any other mechanism: if this was just
| a list of credit card transaction IDs, it'd be hard to do
| much with it as well. The problem is when you combine those
| with other metadata and it seems highly unlikely that
| anyone would spontaneously stop collecting that
| information.
| Dig1t wrote:
| Sort of true, but also credit card numbers are useless
| without the PII metadata. If you're storing credit card
| info like this then you pretty much have to store the
| sensitive stuff that can be used to dox people alongside
| it. The metadata isn't a requirement in the Bitcoin case.
| In fact, the way that bitcoin works, you wouldn't even
| end up with a centralized list like this of all the
| donors to get leaked in the first place. Some interested
| journalist or activist would have to go and manually
| compile it by looking at all the transactions themselves.
| acdha wrote:
| Do you think they would not otherwise store names if they
| weren't accepting credit card donations? If they were
| using Bitcoin, I'd bet that the only difference might be
| the lack of a billing address -- it seems exceedingly
| unlikely that the crowdsourcing site or people running
| the campaign weren't planning to be able to contact their
| supporters and in many cases they need that for
| accounting or tax purposes, too.
| maccard wrote:
| The equivalent of a list of bitcoin addresses would be a
| list of credit card numbers, which this is not. This is
| closer to a list of names on an exchange like coinbase than
| a list of wallet addresses.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Bitcoin or other crypto would just be the payment mechanism,
| alongside any other option like CC, paypal, bank transfer, etc.
| The donation platform could still collect any other data as
| part of the user profile.
|
| Sure, they could choose _not_ to collect or retain that data
| for crypto, but they could do the same with other payment
| mechanisms as well. Crypto wouldn 't confer much more in the
| way of anonymity benefits above and beyond what a donation
| platform could provide right now if they wanted to.
| hammock wrote:
| Who needs a donation platform?
| ineedasername wrote:
| It's a service that provides a convenient form of
| aggregation. It's not impossible to do things without one,
| but doing ad hoc peer-to-peer donations from a large number
| of donors to a large number of recipients in a very short
| amount of time is pretty difficult without some type of
| infrastructure to facilitate it. It doesn't have to be a
| general purpose donation platform, but whatever it is will
| have the same privacy factors I referenced already:
| independently of whether it accepts crypto, it will have to
| decide if/what user data to retain.
| nitwit005 wrote:
| I'm not at-all familiar with Canadian law, but receiving money
| from foreign donors for political activity is often illegal.
| These funding platforms would probably need you to disclose who
| you are even if you gave bitcoin.
| Dma54rhs wrote:
| The movement has to brand it as human rights issue (which
| they possibly have) and the political activity problem flies
| out of the window.
| zrglkjlkrh wrote:
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| Less than hour before the equivalent of Marshall Law is declared
| here in Canada and my civil rights are taken away. What should I
| do in my last hour of freedom?
| sudosysgen wrote:
| No, it's not the equivalent to martial law. Every civil law
| still applies, parliament and the courts are still operating
| normally with their full powers. It's closer to sending the
| national guard.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| They can put you in prison, and take your car and seize your
| life savings and property for protesting them, or for giving
| money for protestors that lost the means to support
| themselves. Not sure what you're talking about...they decide
| what is an illegal protest. They will even force tow truck
| companies to force them to tow protestors vehicles.
|
| And Trudeau just admitted he used American companies to tow
| Canadian vehicles. Literally used aid from a foreign nation
| to break up protests in his own country. Presumably with the
| help of the Michigan governor.
| redisman wrote:
| zrglkjlkrh wrote:
| motohagiography wrote:
| Comments I've read say the file has over 100k names, postal
| codes, and email addresses of people who have donated. Now,
| they've likely been radicalized by being doxed, and they can find
| each other both online, and by postal code.
|
| By releasing this data, these hackers have provided probably the
| most valuable organizing, fundraising, and sales pipeline list
| for conservative causes and businesses ever created in the
| country, and it is that quality of forethought that I think makes
| this a Canadian state backed operation. The wisdom behind this
| was truly exemplary.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| josephcsible wrote:
| From the guidelines:
|
| > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling,
| bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades
| discussion and is usually mistaken.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| pvg wrote:
| If you are not mistaken, email your evidence to the mods.
| You can't post like this because it trashes the site and,
| unfortunately, almost all such posts are by people who turn
| out to have been mistaken or can't reliably show that that
| they weren't.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| pvg wrote:
| Again, send you evidence to the mods.
| synthos wrote:
| You are not mistaken. Check my reply to an account (created
| 1hr after OP post) with one comment here. Comment was self
| contradictory and has misinformation.
|
| If it walks, talks, and looks like a duck...
|
| Political posts should require accounts older than X to
| comment, imho
| spookthesunset wrote:
| > this illegal, foreign-funded protest
|
| If you dig into the bowels of any protest or movement, I'm sure
| you'll find shady funding somewhere. I mean OLPC was probably
| funded in part by Epstein money if you look into it hard
| enough.
| zrglkjlkrh wrote:
| daenz wrote:
| awaywithcovid wrote:
| I am triple vaccinated, require people who come into my house to
| be vaccinated, always where a mask inside a building even if not
| required, and support vaccine mandates.
|
| I am also a huge fan of the truckers
|
| After watching hundreds of violent riots last year, watching our
| most senior leaders support these riots and even help fund raise
| for them, watching the media fawn over the rioters to the point
| that there was a live broadcast calling them peaceful protests in
| front of a burning building, seeing mayors and police chiefs
| harassed at their homes to the point where they needed to move
| and/or resign from their posts, a police station burned down,
| federal buildings attacked, seeing people use to commute to work
| stopped, and seeing _prosecutors_ ask for leniency for a person
| who acknowledged that they burned a person to death while
| committing arson .....
|
| .... I am appalled by the hypocrisy on how these protests, which
| appear to be truly peaceful, are treated by the media and our
| politicians.
|
| It is easy to image the outcry if the riots were treated in any
| way similar to the way the truckers are being treated, and the
| conclusion would be that America is a fascist state.
| boringg wrote:
| Honestly your post looks like a fraudulent/troll post as you
| have only posted once. Professing to be a very concerned covid
| citizen and then saying how peaceful this protest is.
|
| It has significant impacts so far: Shutdown the largest trade
| border, cache of guns found in Coutts protest, local downtown
| core of Ottawa closed, $800,000 per day to the police services
| to manage it, harassment of people on the street, white
| nationalist flags and other imagery, attempted arson for an
| apartment building.
|
| Also it isn't some friendly truckers who are just fed up - this
| is an organized protest by two fringe politicians from Alberta
| who planned to use the wedge issue to get traction for their
| party. Most truckers (90%) are vaccinated and working currently
| - this is a vocal minority raised combined with a non-truckers
| right wing nationalists jumping on the protest train.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| > this is an organized protest by two fringe politicians from
| Alberta who planned to use the wedge issue to get traction
| for their party.
|
| Source? Evidence?
|
| (I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong - I don't follow
| Alberta politics. I'm just saying, I've never heard anything
| of this, so throw me some breadcrumbs here...)
| boringg wrote:
| Tamara Lich is Maverick Party BJ Dichter is Peoples Party.
| A lot of this is grievance politics imported from the US
| and Canada West - and definitely some from Ontario. Maybe
| its breadcrumbs ...
|
| Here's the coles notes on the key people behind this
| protest:
|
| https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/who-is-who-a-guide-to-the-
| majo...
|
| https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-a-look-at-
| the...
| throwaway879080 wrote:
| magwa101 wrote:
| btbuildem wrote:
| jsnodlin wrote:
| I don't even feel like a bad person saying I hope they all die of
| Covid.
| dang wrote:
| We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the HN
| guidelines.
|
| Please don't create accounts to do that with.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| twoxproblematic wrote:
| infamouscow wrote:
| The overwhelming majority of the truckers are fully vaccinated.
| In fact, as a group, they are more vaccinated than the general
| population of Canada.
| tanseydavid wrote:
| The forces that promote Divide-and-Conquer tactics are
| absolutely dependent on otherwise normal people, suddenly
| feeling justified with wishing death upon their neighbors.
| abernard1 wrote:
| As one of the donors included in this hack, I am not entirely
| sure what they're out to accomplish.
|
| Despite eye-rolling media mischaracterizations of these truckers
| as you-know-whats, it's a run of the mill workers strike. It has
| also been extremely peaceful and frankly comical at times. (We
| can contrast this with the "fiery yet mostly peaceful protests"
| of 2020 that negatively affected working class neighborhoods and
| how that was endorsed as an exercise in contrast. CHAZ, CHOP,
| etc.)
|
| These workers and people who have to work in meatspace have had
| their lives impeded for two years now, but because white collar,
| work-at-home employees are mildly inconvenienced for a week,
| they're advocating police action against them and calling it an
| insurrection.
|
| I'm proud to endorse this honkery, and I do not mind if it
| inconveniences some bureaucrats, as my neighborhood in Austin had
| police helicopters circling overhead for a week, cars set on
| fire, many buildings along 6th entirely destroyed, all while
| employees at my company enjoyed and supported the carnage
| financially.
| olivermarks wrote:
| smrtinsert wrote:
| cycomanic wrote:
| Considering that you live in Austin how do you know the exact
| nature of the protests? Have you visited? Or is this what you
| read/saw in media?
|
| It's also interesting how you contrast this to the BLM
| protests. I'm not sure how long a BLM protest would have been
| allowed to block a major traffic artery worth the 100s of
| million $ per day?
| hammock wrote:
| >arson, vandalism, and looting between May 26 and June 8 were
| tabulated to have caused $1-2 billion in insured damages
| nationally--the highest recorded damage from civil disorder
| in U.S. history, surpassing the record set during the 1992
| Los Angeles riots.
|
| "$1-2 billion" from the George Floyd protests is between $70
| million and $140 million a day, for 14 days. So that data
| might help you triangulate an answer to your question of "how
| long."
|
| Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests
| #:~:tex....
| newobj wrote:
| Mischaracterizing CHOP while critiquing a mischaracterization
| of CHOP. The head truly spins
| mindslight wrote:
| By spending much of your comment denigrating other protests
| (presumably on issues that you care less about), you are doing
| exactly what you claim to be condemning. Try advocating for the
| specific laudable goals of your own cause rather than putting
| others down.
| zdragnar wrote:
| Considering that donations to the truckers were being turned
| down because the truckers were forming an "occupation", while
| individuals in the previous occupations (including the
| aforementioned CHOP and CHAZ) had received funds off the same
| platform... The composition seems relevant. Especially with
| all the name calling (that the truckers are forming an
| insurrection) being done by the same people who either stayed
| silent on, or actively supported Antifa as they shot
| explosives into occupied government buildings.
|
| The truckers are on strike. Not really any different than any
| other worker strike, which socialists would normally fall
| over themselves supporting. The thing is, it seems, they
| cannot abide people going on strike against what they view as
| unjust government action.
| czzr wrote:
| You live in Austin and donated to support protests in Canada?
|
| I'm curious about that - why are you actively getting involved
| in another country?
| quetzthecoatl wrote:
| Come on. None other than Justin Trudeau vocally supported the
| middlemen blocking highways in India against the farming
| reforms that Indian government passed in parliament. Some
| self introspection please.
| db1234 wrote:
| Why not? Canadian PM expressed support for a protest going on
| in a foreign country last year which was purely an internal
| matter of that country.
| foodstances wrote:
| Because they were not one of those inconvenienced by the
| protests.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| Maybe he's Canadian?
| jjulius wrote:
| Not OP (and this shouldn't be considered an endorsement of
| their donation/views), but it's similar to how someone in
| Nantucket might've donated to groups protesting police in
| Minneapolis in summer 2020. It's a cause you believe in and
| you want those fighting for it to keep going, and you may
| also want that fight to influence others local to you to get
| more vocal.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Nantucket and Minneapolis both belong to the same political
| union. Canada is not yet a constituent member of the United
| States.
| beerandt wrote:
| For matters of state jurisdiction, like police power,
| it's interstate and extraunion.
|
| As opposed to -lets say- issues related to international
| trade and crossing an international border between two
| signatories to NAFTA/USMCA.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| A blockade of the border is a matter of international
| concern, the occupation of Ottawa is not unless the
| stability of the regime is in question, which would be of
| interest to the State Department.
| jjulius wrote:
| Absolutely correct, but that doesn't really change the
| validity of either of the points that I made.
| fredophile wrote:
| So you think it's acceptable for citizens in one country
| to fund political movements in other countries? Would you
| feel the same way about oligarchs in Russia or China
| funding political organizations in the US?
| jjulius wrote:
| >So you think it's acceptable for citizens in one country
| to fund political movements in other countries? Would you
| feel the same way about oligarchs in Russia or China
| funding political organizations in the US?
|
| Please don't be so quick to put words into other's mouths
| and then go after them for something they never said.
|
| Someone asked why another user might want to donate to
| political causes in another country. I responded,
| clarified I wasn't OP, then - and this is key - _further
| clarified that my post "shouldn't be considered an
| endorsement of their donation/views"_, and then simply
| posited why someone might want to. See how I said that
| you shouldn't see my comment as an endorsement of their
| donation?
|
| Discussing why someone might want to do something is
| different from arguing whether or not it is right to do
| so. At no point have I engaged in the latter. They _can_
| be lumped into the same conversation, but I haven 't done
| that in this comment chain.
| xdennis wrote:
| It's quite amazing to see Americans complain about
| political interference now.
|
| Eastern European right wing politicians have always
| complied about westerners forming NGOs to promote their
| ideology like same-sex marriage.
| abernard1 wrote:
| Because I'm sympathetic to their plight.
|
| I'm a class traitor frankly. My whole family works in jobs
| like this that have been impacted. One of my old co-founders
| was a 24 big-rig truck mechanic and his dad is being put out
| of business by the California CARB restrictions.
|
| But aside from the specifics, I find it odd that people are
| decrying cross-national donations of money to causes. Were
| similar complaints made about CA->US donations in 2020? How
| about national disasters? I don't need a reason to give
| charitably to causes I care about in the world, and a
| supposedly cosmopolitan populace wondering about
| transnational giving seems contradictory to me.
| ineedasername wrote:
| I don't think national disasters are in quite the same
| category of charitable giving.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| These protests are a disruption specific to the internal
| affairs of Canada. The U.S. has long had a dominant power
| relationship with the rest of the continent. The way that
| Americans have imposed their views on _both sides_ of this
| internal conflict is both patronizing and deleterious to
| the self-determination of the Canadian people. It would be
| as suspect if one was to donate to the Shining Path, the
| Contras, the Medellin Cartel, or any other faction.
| adamrezich wrote:
| if we're gonna start playing by the "if it has nothing to
| do with your country then keep out of it" rule then it's
| a great idea to establish this now before the 2024 US
| elections, ideally before the upcoming midterms as well.
|
| I'm fine with this development as long as we all agree to
| play by the same rules and remain consistent.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| If these protests become an issue for American national
| security and strategic geopolitical interest then yes
| NATO should make preparations as in other flashpoints but
| for now the situation has not yet escalated to such a
| degree. The U.S. did not intervene during the coup
| attempt against Erdogan in Turkey in 2016 either.
| adamrezich wrote:
| my post had nothing to do with official government
| actions or interventions but with the rights of citizens
| of different countries to sympathize with and donate
| money to causes outside of their own country. we allowed
| our cities to burn and lives to be lost to violent summer
| protests that were funded in part by citizens of other
| countries. if the general sentiment is that we should not
| allow this any more, that would be fine with me, but only
| if such actions are applied equally and unilaterally.
|
| as far as I am aware, no lives have been lost nor
| businesses destroyed during the current events in Canada.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Your comment evoked the current Ukraine crisis. What do
| the midterm or general elections in the United States
| have to do with American citizens sympathizing with and
| donating money to causes in other countries? That is not
| an issue that is on the ballot. At least foreign policy
| is something that is germane to those elections. This is
| a complete non sequitur.
| adamrezich wrote:
| > Your comment evoked the current Ukraine crisis.
|
| this was wholly unintentional, I'm not sure how you read
| that out of either of my prior comments! we were talking
| about citizen crowdfunding
| Apocryphon wrote:
| > At least foreign policy is something that is germane to
| those elections.
|
| > What do the midterm or general elections in the United
| States have to do with American citizens sympathizing
| with and donating money to causes in other countries?
| That is not an issue that is on the ballot.
|
| > This is a complete non sequitur.
| adamrezich wrote:
| why are you quoting yourself to explain how "[my] comment
| evoked the current Ukraine crisis"? I think we're talking
| past each other, you really want to connect things to
| Ukraine and I don't, so I apologize for taking your time.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| No apologies necessary, thank you. My point is that you
| bringing up upcoming elections in the U.S. in the context
| of discussing the appropriateness of American citizens
| funding campaigns abroad is a total non sequitur, as it
| is not a campaign issue. Something such as the Ukraine
| crisis, in contrast, might actually be a campaign issue,
| in keeping with your '"if it has nothing to do with your
| country then keep out of it" rule' reference.
| gruez wrote:
| Agreed. The xinjiang intern- uhh... vocational education
| and training centers are an issue that that's specific to
| the internal affairs of China. The U.S. has long had a
| dominant power relationship with the rest of the world.
| The way that Americans have imposed their views on both
| sides of this internal conflict is both patronizing and
| deleterious to the self-determination of the Chinese
| people. It would be as suspect if one was to donate to
| the Shining Path, the Contras, the Medellin Cartel, or
| any other faction.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| China is not located in the Americas, while Canada is.
| American geography education is indeed in a dire state.
| gruez wrote:
| 1. I'm not sure how you got the impression that I implied
| china was located in the americans. My comment was
| specifically worded to not imply that.
|
| 2. Does america's influence on the world not exist? Why
| does your original claim of "Americans have imposed their
| views on both sides of this internal conflict is both
| patronizing and deleterious to the self-determination of
| the Canadian people" only apply if it's on the same
| continent? Is it better to impose your views on people
| half way across the world?
| Apocryphon wrote:
| America has long had a unique influence over the rest of
| the Americas while it did not on the rest of the world
| until very relatively in the postwar period. It also has
| not had a hegemonic influence on nations such as China,
| unlike it has had over Canada and most of the American
| continent. Historically, the United States had a
| relatively weak presence in China, while the European
| powers and Japan have had a far stronger hand there.
| Therefore the analogy to China is false, unless you were
| to claim that it was part of the Americas, which given
| the flagrant inaccuracy of your statement seemed to imply
| that it was made in earnest.
| gruez wrote:
| >America has long had a unique influence over the rest of
| the Americas while it did not on the rest of the world
| until very relatively in the postwar period.
|
| So influencing canada is bad because they were doing it
| since 1776, but influencing china is fine because they
| only did it starting in 1945?
|
| >Historically, the United States had a relatively weak
| presence in China, while the European powers and Japan
| have had a far stronger hand there.
|
| Do you also think "european powers" should stay out of
| genocides in africa, because of their outsized influence
| in the past?
|
| >Therefore the analogy to China is false, unless you were
| to claim that it was part of the Americas, which given
| the flagrant inaccuracy of your statement seemed to imply
| that it was made in earnest.
|
| You failed to state the justification, so I was forced to
| guess.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| > So influencing canada is bad because they were doing it
| since 1776, but influencing china is fine because they
| only did it starting in 1945?
|
| The U.S. didn't even influence China until the
| normalization of relations under Nixon, in 1972.
| Furthermore, the relation was always less unequal between
| the two, than it was and is between the U.S. and other
| countries in the Americas.
|
| > Do you also think "european powers" should stay out of
| genocides in africa, because of their outsized influence
| in the past?
|
| European powers have historically been very bad at
| handling African genocides. Even as recently as the 1994
| Rwandan Genocide, France initially supported the
| government of the Genocidaires, and did not aid the
| victimized Tutsis. Given Europe's awful track record in
| this area, it is impossible to say how constructive
| intervention could be.
|
| > You failed to state the justification, so I was forced
| to guess.
|
| I apologize for underrating your grasp of geography.
| beerandt wrote:
| >specific to the internal affairs of Canada.
|
| It's a Canada policy, but is specific to crossing the
| border from the US.
|
| "Specific to internal affairs" is a stretch at best.
|
| >Shining Path, the Contras, the Medellin Cartel, or any
| other faction.
|
| You forgot BLM.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| BLM is based in the United States, so that reference
| would not make sense unless you are talking about funding
| crossing state lines.
|
| > It's a Canada policy, but is specific to crossing the
| border from the US.
|
| Up until the blockade of the border, it was an internal
| matter entirely, but you are correct here. If the border
| situation escalates, then the OAS needs to get involved
| to mediate a ceasefire and ensure that free and fair
| elections can take place.
| beerandt wrote:
| Canada and international donations to blm is.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Are you alleging that the Logan Act has been violated?
| That is a serious accusation.
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| "Ninety percent of Canadians live within 100 miles of the
| US" I think in many ways, geographically and culturally,
| they're closer to Americans than they are to each other.
| Not that Canadians see it that way.
| valarauko wrote:
| I might suggest that Americans within 100 miles of the
| Northern border more closely resemble Canadians than they
| do their other compatriots.
| brnaftr361 wrote:
| This is normal. The Greek and Spanish civil wars received
| support from other nations and individuals, up to and
| including volunteers to fight. Orwell, a Brit, fought in the
| Spanish Civil War. Homage to Catalonia, good book.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Is this about vaccines or worker's rights?
| g8oz wrote:
| - Health care workers in Ottawa had to be advised not too
| wear work wear in the streets to avoid harassment and
| assault.
|
| - The Canadian Trucking Alliance have stated that between 85
| and 90 per cent of truckers are already vaccinated.
|
| - 65% of Canadians think the Freedom Convoy represents a
| small minority of selfish Canadians. (Leger poll)
|
| - Hate groups spotted among the protesters include the
| Soldiers of Odin, Three Percenters and followers of the
| Soltrean hypothesis. I'm sure there are some very fine people
| among them as well.
|
| - Prominent among the organizers are advocates of the "white
| genocide" theory.
| monkeybutton wrote:
| Its about the fringe right being angry.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Maybe, but angry about vaccines or worker's rights? :-)
| monkeybutton wrote:
| Angry about sience! https://preview.redd.it/pj9zbnm03gh81
| .jpg?width=640&crop=sma...
| whatshisface wrote:
| "Crazy people make trouble for no good reason" is almost
| too hard to believe, are you sure there's nothing they
| want in particular?
| analog31 wrote:
| What do they want? Do we know? Is there a document we can
| point to, that we know expresses the grievances of the
| protesters? Of a majority of protesters? Of their
| supporters?
| soared wrote:
| I thought these protests were negatively affecting working
| class neighborhoods as well by honking horns during the night?
| I'm not holding a strong opinion on the subject but it's kind
| of silly bias to compare this to blm with your phrasing.
|
| Blacks have been through much much worse for hundreds of years,
| so the truckers going through troubling times for 2 years
| doesn't really justify the comparison.
| throw_m239339 wrote:
| > I thought these protests were negatively affecting working
| class neighborhoods as well by honking horns during the
| night?
|
| Truckers aren't burning down neighborhoods or looting small
| business right now. Yet a good chunk of Americans had no
| problem with all that US 2 years ago, in the middle of a
| freaking pandemic. But honking is now where people draw the
| line?
|
| > Blacks have been through much much worse for hundreds of
| years, so the truckers going through troubling times for 2
| years doesn't really justify the comparison.
|
| How is truckers struggles any less valid than any other?
| cause the people demonstrating are white or something?
| bentcorner wrote:
| > _How is truckers struggles any less valid than any
| other?_
|
| Far be it from me to downplay the plight of others but it's
| a vaccine. Literally takes 10 minutes. Every baby in Canada
| receives a bunch of vaccines on a regular schedule. Many
| (all?) provinces have laws that state children must be
| vaccinated before attending school. This is nothing new.
| Transportation employees that cannot be vaccinated for
| COVID due to medical contraindication can have a medical
| exemption.
|
| Any struggle here is completely self-inflicted.
| soared wrote:
| Uhhh it's definitely less valid? Truckers are complaining
| about vaccine passports, blm was complaining about being
| killed by police officers.
| throw_m239339 wrote:
| gruez wrote:
| >Uhhh it's definitely less valid?
|
| The truckers see vaccine passports as an oppressive
| government action, and people getting killed by police
| officers as no big deal. The BLM protesters see police
| killings as an oppressive government action, and vaccine
| passports as no big deal. See the issue here? We as a
| society need standards for behavior that don't just boil
| down to "if you think it's justified then you can do
| whatever you want".
| mcphage wrote:
| Do you think the truckers would consider replacing
| vaccine mandates with police killings as a step _down_ in
| oppression?
| native_samples wrote:
| Er, you don't know truckers think people getting killed
| by police officers is "no big deal". That appears to be
| something you just made up right now, as there's no
| obvious way you could possibly know that for sure. Or do
| you have some specific evidence, like a poll of the
| truckers on what they thought of BLM last year?
| gruez wrote:
| >Er, you don't know truckers think people getting killed
| by police officers is "no big deal".
|
| I agree that "no big deal" was an overstep, but the
| argument works fine with "is justified"/"is not
| justified".
|
| >Or do you have some specific evidence, like a poll of
| the truckers on what they thought of BLM last year?
|
| Unfortunately not, but based on this poll[1] and
| demographic factors of truckers (ie. less likely to be
| college educated, more likely to be republican), it seems
| pretty reasonable to conclude that most truckers oppose
| BLM.
|
| [1] https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?annotat
| ions=tr...
| rvz wrote:
| And where is that lost millions in donations that was
| supposed to go towards their causes, exactly?
|
| I'm mean first we have those defending hundreds of millions
| of damage to businesses including black-owned ones and now we
| have ones defending fraudsters unable to file their financial
| reports and instead go off with millions worth of donations
| unaccounted for.
|
| Sounds like a very successful scam executed by the founders
| to fool lots of people driven by emotion and outrage.
| rajin444 wrote:
| > Blacks have been through much much worse for hundreds of
| years, so the truckers going through troubling times for 2
| years doesn't really justify the comparison.
|
| There's no way you can objectively back this up. Not to
| mention you're saying because some dead people had worse
| conditions it's ok to make conditions for the living bad.
| That type of logic only applies to groups you dislike.
| soared wrote:
| Umm objectively there was slavery and segregation from
| before the us existed until <70 years ago, which is
| hundreds of years
|
| I couldn't follow the logic on the second point, but
| current generation African Americans were negatively
| impacted by their great grandparents being slaves - it's
| like generational wealth but the opposite.
| brnaftr361 wrote:
| If you wanna bring up race, the US and CA black populations
| have lower rates of vaccination. The truckers want mandates
| withdrawn. Regardless of their intentions, they're doing a
| public good which will lend itself to the black population.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Your right to peacefully protest isn't supposed to depend on
| anyone else's opinion of how legitimate the cause you're
| protesting for is.
| billbrown wrote:
| No person protesting during the BLM riots had "gone through
| much worse for hundreds of years." The truckers had
| personally experienced the thing they are protesting against
| (or would be affected by it going forward).
| msie wrote:
| To clarify, the truckers have not been affected by the
| vaccine mandate until now. They were given two years to get
| an innocuous jab.
| peeters wrote:
| If you're going to attack "media mischaracterizations" let's be
| truthful.
|
| > but because white collar, work-at-home employees are mildly
| inconvenienced for a week, they're advocating police action
| against them and calling it an insurrection.
|
| "Mildly inconvenienced" is an interesting term for shutting
| down a border crossing that handles $350 million in trade per
| day.
|
| "Mildly inconvenienced" is an interesting term for residents
| having to put up with medically unsafe volumes of horn honking
| all throughout the nights. Some had brought train horns and
| were blaring those.
|
| We're "calling it an insurrection" because that is a stated
| objective of the organizers, to overthrow the elected
| government of Canada. The fact that this is being encouraged
| and funded in large part by Americans is frankly, while
| unsurprising, an overtly hostile act being done to an ally.
| jazzyk wrote:
| > to overthrow the elected government of Canada
|
| This is a serious claim, and one that I have not seen coming
| from the protesters (they want an end to the Covid mandates,
| from what I can tell) . Can you please provide the source for
| your allegation?
| peeters wrote:
| As commented elsewhere
|
| > One of the main organizers behind the convoy, Canada
| Unity (CU), acknowledged that they had planned to submit
| their signed "memorandum of understanding" (MoU) to the
| Senate of Canada and Governor General Mary Simon, described
| in the MoU as the "SCGGC". The MoU which was signed by
| James and Sandra Bauder and Martin Brodmann, was posted on
| the Canada Unity website in mid-December 2021 and publicly
| available until its February 8 retraction. Bauder, whose
| name is at the top of a CTV News' list of "major players"
| in the convoy, is the founder of Canada Unity. CTV cited
| Bauder saying that he hoped the signed MoU would convince
| Elections Canada to trigger an election, which is not
| constitutionally possible. In this pseudolegal document, CU
| called on the "SCGGC" to cease all vaccine mandates,
| reemploy all employees terminated due to vaccination
| status, and rescind all fines imposed for non-compliance
| with public health orders. _If this failed, the MoU called
| on the "SCGGC" to dissolve the government, and name members
| of the CU to form a Canadian Citizens Committee (CCC),
| which is beyond the constitutional powers of either the
| Governor General or the Senate._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Convoy_2022#Protest_g
| o...
| jazzyk wrote:
| So they tried to "overthrow the government" by filing a
| petition to call for early elections? That's quite a
| stretch...
| peeters wrote:
| Well it's a matter of interpretation. You can call it
| just fundamental misunderstanding of the Canadian
| constitution, or an attempt to overthrow the government,
| but either way having the GG, Senate, or Elections Canada
| force an election while the government enjoys the
| confidence of the house would be a coup. I'm fine with
| giving the protesters the benefit of the doubt and just
| agreeing that they don't understand how the electoral
| process works in Canada.
| jazzyk wrote:
| They were only _petitioning_ for early elections - _in
| case Covid restrictions were not immediately removed_.
| Not unconditionally.
|
| _Petitioning_ for early elections (even if impossible
| legally) is a far, far cry from "overthrowing the
| government"*.
|
| Would you be willing to edit your original post to
| provide some context here?
| peeters wrote:
| It depends _whom_ you petition. If you petition the House
| to call an early election, that 's part of our normal
| democracy. If you petition the army to remove the
| government, that's attempting a coup.
|
| In this case the MoU was not petitioning the House to
| call an early election, it was petitioning the Senate and
| Governor General to call an early election, who do not
| have the legal authority to call an election while the
| government has the confidence of the House.
|
| And whether it's conditional on your demands being met is
| irrelevant. You can't hold a gun to someone's head and
| tell them to do something, and then say "well I was only
| going to fire if they didn't do it". The problem is in
| the threat, not the ask.
| haberman wrote:
| I just read the MoU (https://web.archive.org/web/20220122
| 173201/https://canada-un...). It is a ridiculous
| document, suggesting that CU and the central government
| will form a joint committee to set Covid policy together.
| But nowhere in the document do I see anything about
| calling an election, dissolving the government, or being
| beyond any constitutional powers. The Wikipedia quote
| upthread does not seem like an accurate summary of the
| MoU.
| peeters wrote:
| Obviously it takes some suspension of disbelief to take
| anything in that document seriously, but it suggests that
| the Senate and Governor General (both unelected) make up
| the new "Government of Canada", with no mention of the
| House (elected). It's pretty clear that the intention of
| the "offer" is to remove the duly elected government from
| the picture in the mistaken belief that the Senate and GG
| are of higher authority to the House.
|
| As far as the petition for an early election goes, I
| agree I can't find it in the MoU. Perhaps it was reading
| between the lines and combining statements made outside
| the MoU with what was found within.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| No idea why this is being downvoted. This is the PROBLEM,
| people. Many Canadians support removing mandates but very
| few of us support removing the government through extra-
| legal mumbo-jumbo. We just had an election in Canada a
| few months ago and mandates were very much an issue that
| was debated and discussed.
| sleepingadmin wrote:
| >"Mildly inconvenienced" is an interesting term for shutting
| down a border crossing that handles $350 million in trade per
| day.
|
| One lane of the bridge was open and the Detroit tunnel had
| absolutely no blockade. This is a mild inconvenience.
| Protests are inconvenient to be sure. If the media you
| consume portrayed this as if there was no traffic at all
| between detroit and windsor... time for you to look to new
| media. I am curious where you have gotten this idea? CBC?
| Some other 'government accredited media'?
|
| https://www.post-
| gazette.com/news/nation/2022/02/12/Detroit-...
|
| >"Mildly inconvenienced" is an interesting term for residents
| having to put up with medically unsafe volumes of horn
| honking all throughout the nights. Some had brought train
| horns and were blaring those.
|
| Ottawa has a population of 1 million and their downtown area
| will always have honking. Like you know... every other
| downtown area of a large capital city. Calling this
| 'medically unsafe' is quite a stretch. Our homes are quite
| insulated here in Canada given the cold. The same insulation
| reduces road noise a lot. If you cant sleep because of road
| noise downtown... move because that happens year round.
|
| >We're "calling it an insurrection" because that is a stated
| objective of the organizers, to overthrow the elected
| government of Canada. The fact that this is being encouraged
| and funded in large part by Americans is frankly, while
| unsurprising, an overtly hostile act being done to an ally.
|
| No, that's just not in touch with reality at all. Parking
| large trucks on roads and having a peaceful protest is not an
| insurrection. There was absolutely no 'otherthrow the elected
| government of canada' that's a complete fantasy. They haven't
| once entered buildings or drawn weapons against anyone or
| anything.
|
| I highly recommend you consume different media because you
| are not even in the ballpark here.
| jamincan wrote:
| Since you donated money to them, you probably would like to
| know that the manifesto of the organizers who setup the
| GoFundMe and started the convoy explicitly wanted the
| Governor General and Senate to meet with the organizers and
| form a committee to replace the federal government. [1]
| They only recently stepped back from the manifesto a few
| days ago. [2]
|
| 1. https://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-1010/audio/podcasts/
| the-... 2. https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/protest-
| organizer-no-...
| sleepingadmin wrote:
| >Since you donated money to them, you probably would like
| to know that the manifesto of the organizers who setup
| the GoFundMe and started the convoy explicitly wanted the
| Governor General and Senate to meet with the organizers
| and form a committee to replace the federal government.
| [1] They only recently stepped back from the manifesto a
| few days ago. [2]
|
| I never donated to them for the record. I wouldn't even
| join some solidarity thing.
|
| The first link doesnt load any audio for some reason. So
| i dunno there.
|
| The second link being from a 'government accredited
| media' org basically just says this MOU was withdrawn.
| Never provides a sentence of the MOU of what it says.
| Though they say:
|
| >The group had been accused by some of using the document
| to try to legitimize an attempt to seize power from the
| federal government.
|
| Yes well, the group was also called white supremacists,
| so lets just look at the real deal.
|
| >By having the Senateof Canadaand theGovernorGeneralof
| Canadasign this MOU into action, they agree to
| immediately cease anddesist all unconstitutional,
| discriminatoryand segregating actionsand human
| rightsviolations.It calls for animmediate instruction
| toall levels of the Federal, Provincial, Territorialand
| Municipal governments to not only stop but furthermore
| waive all SARS-CoV-2 (and not limited to SARS-CoV-2
| subsequent variations)fines that have been issued and
| imposed upon its citizens, institutions, and private
| enterprises.Further, to immediately re-instate all
| employees in all branches ofall levels ofgovernments and
| not limited to promote the same to the private industry
| and institutional sectors employees with full lawful
| employment rights prior to wrongful and unlawful
| dismissals.Lastly it instructsall levels of government
| and private Sector that the Illegal use of a Vaccine
| Passportto cease anddesistimmediately
|
| OK, I can certainly see where some people are coming
| from, but absolutely don't agree with the conclusion they
| are trying to seize power. In fact no reading or
| interpretation of that has them asking for power. They
| are asking for the GG to simply restore our rights. Which
| is absolutely something we have in Canada that may seem
| abnormal to say the USA.
|
| No doubt why the national post doesn't actually copy and
| paste any of this. This is entirely what the Monarch and
| GG is supposed to be for. Hurts me to say because I think
| we should cut all ties to the British monarchy and move
| toward a republic. Coming back to context of my comments.
| The use of our monarchy being used as if to be an
| insurrection is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.
| Our monarchy is still our monarchy. If our monarch
| decides something, we must abide and that's not
| insurrection.
| msie wrote:
| > Ottawa has a population of 1 million and their downtown
| area will always have honking. Like you know... every other
| downtown area of a large capital city. Calling this
| 'medically unsafe' is quite a stretch. Our homes are quite
| insulated here in Canada given the cold. The same
| insulation reduces road noise a lot. If you cant sleep
| because of road noise downtown... move because that happens
| year round.
|
| I've had honking in Downtown Vancouver from a group
| supporting the convoy and it certainly does not resemble
| the usual city noise. If it was horrible for the couple
| hours I experienced then it must have been hell for those
| Ottawa citizens when it went on for days.
| sleepingadmin wrote:
| >I've had honking in Downtown Vancouver from a group
| supporting the convoy and it certainly does not resemble
| the usual city noise. If it was horrible for the couple
| hours I experienced then it must have been hell for those
| Ottawa citizens when it went on for days.
|
| Would you say this honking in vancouver was 'medically
| unsafe'?
| penjelly wrote:
| am Ottawan, live about 6 blocks from 2 of the main
| blocked roads (parliament and kent street) noise is not
| bad for me, headphones block it out completely. Theyve
| stopped honking for the last 5 days too fwiw.
|
| "hell" is an overstatement for something that can easily
| be ignored with earplugs/headphones.
|
| construction work is certainly worse when its nearby as.
| it penetrates buildings better and often produces noise
| for longer periods of time. Though for people living less
| then 1 block the first 2 weekend days were probably
| irritating.
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| Some of us remember the "mostly peaceful" characterization by
| CNN of the protests in Kenosha.
|
| We also remember the blockade of the rail in Canada.
|
| We're also not impressed by the pleas by inconvenienced
| government bureaucrats who couldn't be bothered to
| investigate the arson of 40 places of worship in Canada.
| powerslacker wrote:
| Not an insurrection. Not trying to overthrow the government.
| Not illegal to send money to people you like or across
| borders. Not an overtly hostile act. Truckers have rights
| too.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| Medically unsafe volumes claim has not been substantiated
| with any real evidence, and quite frankly absolutely false at
| first glance because the driver located right next to the
| horn would have permanently ringing ears by now.
|
| There is however evidence of many false claims, later walked
| back, just like the assault at the shelter, which as it turns
| out, was: 1) verbal assault 2) did not involve anyone from
| the convoy. Conveniently that claim was spread by a charity
| mostly funded by the City of Ottawa (10mil), of which 9 mil
| goes to salaries and only 450k to groceries and 850k to
| programs.
|
| Disgusting.
|
| As for the residents of ottawa, living in the nation capital,
| and not expecting boisterous protests is plain privledge and
| entitlement. That's what you see in the mirror every morning:
| privilege and entitlement.
|
| Calling a strike an insurrection is an insult to millions in
| Canada who have fled actual wars. It's also an insult to
| every socialist that supports the right of workers to
| organize and strike, that you want to now shutdown with
| martial law.
|
| Disgusting.
|
| Oh, truckers can find another job if they don't like the jab?
| So you can move to another city too.
|
| Just like the jab, nobody forces you to live in Ottawa, it
| was YOUR. CHOICE.
| dang wrote:
| Please don't cross into the flamewar style like this. It's
| not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.
| You can make your substantive points without that.
|
| We want _curious_ conversation here.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Edit: you've been doing this in other threads too (e.g.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30333616). Could you
| please not? Here's an old line from PG, which I love, that
| expresses what we actually want here: _Comments should be
| written in the spirit of colleagues cooperating in good
| faith to figure out the truth about something, not
| politicians trying to ridicule and misrepresent the other
| side_.
| newbie789 wrote:
| gruez wrote:
| >"Mildly inconvenienced" is an interesting term for residents
| having to put up with medically unsafe volumes of horn
| honking all throughout the nights. Some had brought train
| horns and were blaring those.
|
| I think "loud but mostly peaceful protests" is an apt
| description.
|
| https://i.kym-
| cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/035/101/CNN...
| larryflint wrote:
| dang wrote:
| We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines.
| You can't post like this here. Moreover, it's not in your
| interests to post like this here, because all it does is
| discredit the position you're arguing for--a bad trade for
| a little momentary venting.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| jollybean wrote:
| If these people are an 'insurrection' then BLM protests
| during which 25++ people died, was 'seditions rebellion'. [1]
|
| The 'truckers convoy' is completely within the normal
| framework or populist protest, this is not new, it's common.
| Farmers used to bring in their tractors to do this.
|
| The people at the border were moved. The people in Ottawa are
| concentrated downtown, mostly not near housing, and I believe
| the honking has ben curtailed.
|
| They are now camping out and dancing to The Macarena.
|
| In Portland, an entire section of the city was taken over by
| armed bandits threatening violence, not letting Police or
| emergency services in, two people died, people's rights were
| very seriously curtailed. Now that was a hard problem to
| solve.
|
| At this point we just have a bunch of angry people in trucks
| downtown, that's mostly it.
|
| It will eventually peter out and they will go home ...
|
| [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/americans-
| kill...
| echelon wrote:
| > We're "calling it an insurrection" because that is a stated
| objective of the organizers, to overthrow the elected
| government of Canada.
|
| I'm liberal, but the far left jumping to call _protests_ an
| act of " _insurrection_ " makes me want to warn you that
| this is an extreme characterization that will only further
| polarize us. We have to stop this nonsense.
|
| It's like when those on the far left call for an end of free
| speech. The pendulum has swung completely for these folks.
| It's not a good idea to perpetuate or associate with these
| leanings.
|
| Protests on both sides, while kept nonviolent, are a good and
| healthy mechanism to diffuse pent up anger, air grievances,
| and open new channels of dialogue.
| monkeybutton wrote:
| Why is it a far left position to call out what protest
| leaders stated in their memorandum of understanding?
| brnaftr361 wrote:
| Here's how the MoU actually reads:
|
| "Give us our shit back, Randy."
|
| "No."
|
| "Fuck right off, Randy."
| echelon wrote:
| Because that's not reality. No democracy is going to be
| overthrown. It's an extreme characterization, and it's
| wearing down our ability to fight the actual important
| battles [1].
|
| You can say that there are radical elements within the
| protest that are anti-Canadian, white supremacist, etc.,
| but to throw around the term _insurrection_ so lightly
| and characterize the whole movement that way draws very
| harsh lines that are hard to walk back. I guarantee that
| you 'll find friends and allies on both sides of most
| issues, yet we're worked up to the point that we're ready
| to start jailing one another.
|
| The far left are crying wolf way too loudly and often,
| and it's going to bite come election time. The moderates
| are not going to listen anymore.
|
| [1] Surveillance and freedom of speech, EARN IT Act,
| algorithmic manipulation, etc.
| monkeybutton wrote:
| I agree that is unlikely for them to succeed. But just
| because a demand is futile doesn't mean it wasn't made.
| peeters wrote:
| You're ignoring what I wrote entirely. We're not calling it
| an insurrection because it's a protest. We're calling it an
| insurrection because it's a protest with _the express
| stated goal of overthrowing the democratically elected
| government._
| hammock wrote:
| Play that out. How will it happen?
| jjulius wrote:
| Not OP, not taking sides, but the "how" of it playing out
| is irrelevant if the stated intent is to overthrow a
| government.
| echelon wrote:
| Every political compass direction has these elements.
| They're fringe.
|
| This issue is about dialogue with constituents. Meanwhile
| there are dozens of more pressing matters that actually
| deserve serious attention. Ukraine, EARN IT (US for now,
| but it'll go global), etc.
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| I haven't followed very closely so perhaps I missed it,
| but is there a source on that?
|
| Only thing I can find is the reporting on Jagmeet Singh
| comments who is opposed to the truckers.
| monkeybutton wrote:
| https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politics/trucker-convoy-
| organi...
| peeters wrote:
| The Wikipedia article is probably your best bet for a
| summary of factual information at this point.
|
| > One of the main organizers behind the convoy, Canada
| Unity (CU), acknowledged that they had planned to submit
| their signed "memorandum of understanding" (MoU) to the
| Senate of Canada and Governor General Mary Simon,
| described in the MoU as the "SCGGC". The MoU which was
| signed by James and Sandra Bauder and Martin Brodmann,
| was posted on the Canada Unity website in mid-December
| 2021 and publicly available until its February 8
| retraction. (...) CTV cited Bauder saying that he hoped
| the signed MoU would convince Elections Canada to trigger
| an election, which is not constitutionally possible. In
| this pseudolegal document, CU called on the "SCGGC" to
| cease all vaccine mandates, reemploy all employees
| terminated due to vaccination status, and rescind all
| fines imposed for non-compliance with public health
| orders. If this failed, the MoU called on the "SCGGC" to
| dissolve the government, _and name members of the CU to
| form a Canadian Citizens Committee (CCC),_ which is
| beyond the constitutional powers of either the Governor
| General or the Senate.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Convoy_2022#Protest
| _go...
| native_samples wrote:
| So in other words, overthrowing the government isn't
| their goal. Their goal is:
|
| _" CU called on the SCGGC to cease all vaccine mandates,
| reemploy all employees terminated due to vaccination
| status, and rescind all fines imposed for non-compliance
| with public health orders"_
|
| The stuff about dissolving the government is what they
| want _if those other things_ aren 't done.
| peeters wrote:
| They were calling on the "SCGGC" to do those things, i.e.
| they were calling on unelected bodies to bypass the
| elected House (which, by the way, is currently a minority
| government and therefore is being held up with opposition
| support).
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| It is indeed stated, I did not know that, thanks for the
| reference. I don't think it's serious though. By the same
| measure Extinction Rebellion would be considered an
| insurrection. I kinda remember BLM stating demands that
| included a separatist black country in the south. Hardly
| constitutional.
|
| I think the threat would have to be serious to count as
| an insurrection, as in an actual credible plan to carry
| it out to fruition.
|
| Otherwise every crackpot would be guilty of insurrection.
| brnaftr361 wrote:
| Prove to me this effort is centralized and not some loon
| with zero say-so that a broadcast company quoted in a
| video to incense people and increase engagement. This is
| a protest with loads of people, and however much you want
| to distillate them into a caricature, they're ultimately
| acting independently and can withdraw their support. That
| is to say, because some few individuals may have said
| some extreme thing, doesn't mean that the whole condone
| that message or the intention.
|
| Just like not everyone in a protest is black block.
| BeefWellington wrote:
| Canada Unity is one of the co-organizers of this
| event.[1]
|
| This is what their "Memorandum of Understanding" stated
| one month ago[2] (January 13): ARTICLE
| 1. SCOPE of ACCORD Canada Unity (CU) offers
| this "Memorandum" to the Senate of Canada and the
| Governor General of Canada, the highest authorities
| representing the Federal Government (SCGGC) as "The
| Government of Canada". Acceptance by endorsement of this
| "Memorandum" and its valuable considerations, will
| solidify our mutual accord as further detailed in the
| understanding. ARTICLE 2. OBLIGATION and
| COOPERATION The appointed "Entities" agree
| to work together in the true spirit of partnership to
| ensure there is a united, visible, and responsive
| leadership of the "Initiative" and to demonstrate fair
| practice according to the Canadian Constitution, Canadian
| Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and Privacy Act and as
| further described in Article 3.d. of this "Memorandum"
| administrative and managerial commitment to the
|
| "Initiative". ARTICLE 3. MANDATE
| a. CU & SCGGC agree to form a committee, called the
| Citizens of Canada Committee (CCC). b. SCGGC
| undertakes and appoints authorized (CCC) representatives.
| c. CU undertakes and appoints authorized (CCC)
| representatives. d. CU & SCGGC adopts and
| adheres to The Government of Canada's agreements on
| transparency in matters related to the Canadian Federal
| Referendum Act, Canadian Constitution, Canadian Charter
| of Rights and Freedoms, Access to Information Act and the
| Privacy Act, Canadian Human Rights Act, Canadian Bill of
| Rights, National Security Act 2017, Crimes Against
| Humanity and War Crimes Act, Tri Council Policy
| Statement, National and International Human Rights
| Declarations and such Regulations et al, the Nuremberg
| Code, the Declaration of Helsinki all as provided by law,
| and not only limited to latest additions, addendums and
| revisions; and to be precise including laws, regulations
| and declarations prior to SARS-CoV-2, and any subsequent
| variations of SARS-CoV-2. e. SCGGC will
| effective as of midnight on this ___, day of ___________,
| 2021 instruct all levels of the Federal, Provincial,
| Territorial, and Municipal governments to immediately
| cease and desist all unconstitutional human rights,
| discriminatory and segregated actions, and not limited
| to, immediately instruct all levels of the Federal,
| Provincial, Territorial and Municipal governments to not
| only stop, but furthermore waive all SARS-CoV-2 (and not
| limited to SARS-CoV-2 subsequent variations) fines that
| have been issued and imposed upon its citizens,
| institutions, and private enterprises. f.
| SCGGC will effective as of midnight on this ___, day of
| ___________, 2021, instruct all levels of the Federal,
| Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal governments to re-
| instate all employees in all branches of governments and,
| not limited to promote the same to the private industry
| and
|
| institutional sectors employees with full lawful
| employment rights prior to the wrongful and unlawful
| dismissals that stem from the SARS-CoV-2 (and not limited
| to SARS-CoV-2 subsequent variations) vaccine passport
| mandates. g. SCGGC will effective as of
| midnight on this ___, day of ___________, 2021, issue a
| cease-and-desist order abolishing all Federal,
| Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal Vaccine Passport
| requirements, Vaccine discriminatory regulations,
| initiatives, and mandates in regard to SARS-CoV-2 (and
| not limited to SARS-CoV-2 subsequent variations).
| h. Further, SCGGC will effective as of midnight on this
| ___, day of ___________, 2021, issue a cease-and-desist
| order to the respected Honorable Members of the
| Government of Canada with the consequent instructions to
| further instruct the Premiers of the Provinces and
| Territories, the
|
| Mayors of the respected Municipalities and, the respected
| Federal, Provincial, Territorial, and Municipal Medical
| Officers to stop all such unlawful activities pursuant to
| ARTICLE 3. MANDATE section d. of this "Memorandum."
| i. Canada is a lawful member of the Helsinki Declaration
| to name one but not limited to additional Canadian and
| International Human Rights Laws and Regulations et al and
| therefore enacts its duty and responsibility to make any
| and all laws and regulations available to its citizens;
| further, to enforce and uphold such laws, regulations,
| and declaration(s) on behalf of its Citizens of Canada.
| j. By signing this "Memorandum", CU will immediately stop
| "Operation Bear Hug Ottawa", demonstration / convoy and
| Federal Referendum activities and will strive to work
| with all groups and entities et al to bring this country
| together in unity. k. CU & SCGGC agree to
| have the CCC committee formed within 10 days of
| acceptance and signing of this "Memorandum".
| l. CU & SCGGC agree to have a final "signed" and publicly
| released agreement in place within "no later than 90
| days" of acceptance and signing of this "Memorandum".
| m. CU & SCGGC agree to only release jointly approved
| media / press statements on a daily basis during the time
| schedule specified in ARTICLE 3. MANDATE section
| paragraph k. and l. n. SCGGC will
| immediately make available all schedules as described in
| ARTICLE 3. MANDATE section paragraph d. available to the
| CCC committee.
|
| (Document continues)
|
| Effectively they want to appoint a governing body to this
| committee and usurp the governance of the duly elected
| MPs of the government, effectively dissolving it, and
| then end all federal and provincially-imposed imposed
| mandates. The problem is, the Federal government cannot
| force provinces to end mandates.
|
| They have since withdrawn this memorandum specifically
| because they found out their movement was not as popular
| as they believed.[3]
|
| It is currently very unpopular.[4]
|
| [1]: https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/who-is-who-a-guide-to-
| the-majo...
|
| [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20220113155334/https://c
| anada-un...
|
| [3]: https://web.archive.org/web/20220213145435/https://c
| anada-un...
|
| [4]: https://angusreid.org/trudeau-convoy-trucker-
| protest-vaccine...
|
| Edit: tried to clean up formatting & missing end of
| sentence.
| brnaftr361 wrote:
| This is not convincing, source 1 reads like a hit piece,
| and ultimately only lists _12_ people with _zero_
| authority out of _thousands_ of other participants.
| Organizers have questionable sway in any case. Everything
| else is an aside, except for source 3, which indicates to
| me that it was probably a product of internal pressure. I
| came to that conclusion independently, and upon looking:
|
| "It has come to the attention of Canada Unity that the
| Memorandum Of Understanding (herein referred to as MOU)
| _does not reflect the spirit and intent of the Freedom
| Convoy Movement 2022_ "
| defaultname wrote:
| "Far left"? I'm a conservative. _Most_ normal conservatives
| are vigorously against these protests, for exactly the same
| reason that we were against railway blockades, and against
| violence and mayhem that occurred under the umbrella of BLM
| protests. I am simply in awe that so many of the same
| people that were viciously against BLM protests are
| supporters of this protest.
|
| Regardless, the literal stated goal of the organizers of
| this convoy was that the convoy would not leave until the
| government resign en masse and that the governor general
| basically decree this protest group the government. That is
| a textbook insurrection. This memorandum was replaced on
| February 8th because it was so fantastically treasonous
| that as it gained wider attention it became unpalatable.
|
| So yes, when people say insurrection, they are absolutely
| correct. It isn't the "far left" pointing out that fact.
|
| Just as it isn't the "far left" who point out that two of
| the primary organizers are a long time white supremacist,
| and the other is a _literal_ separatist who has long
| petitioned that Western Canada should join the US.
| echelon wrote:
| My point is you can't call this an _insurrection_ without
| shifting the Overton window.
|
| Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any
| appreciable number of people are actually trying to
| overthrow Canada.
|
| We're polarizing everything to the point we can't focus
| on the topics that matter. We'll forget about this in a
| matter of years, yet our ears and minds will be deafened.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| I see it as wanton hyperbole. Demanding members of the
| government resign does not an insurrection make.
| Especially if you sincerely think they have abused their
| powers and have infringed on human rights.
| sofixa wrote:
| > I am simply in awe that so many of the same people that
| were viciously against BLM protests are supporters of
| this protest
|
| Where do you think that hypocrisy comes from? I'm across
| the pond so very far from the action, but I'm very
| curious how people reason about this.
| beardedetim wrote:
| > Where do you think that hypocrisy comes from?
|
| Me and my brother watched the Super Bowl last night, me
| rooting for he Rams and him for the Bengals. We saw the
| same play happen live, resulting in the Bengals getting a
| penalty for holding and the Rams being awarded free
| yards.
|
| He saw it as "fucked up" and I saw it as "just".
|
| When the Rams were called for a penalty, the roles were
| reversed and I felt like the refs were in the pocket of
| the Bengals for calling such a stupid penalty.
|
| ---
|
| All that to say: when _my_ team does stuff, it's okay.
| When _their_ team does stuff, it's bad. This is the same
| line of reasoning that is being played out with the above
| hypocrisy.
| caeril wrote:
| The logical case against the legitimacy of BLM protests
| is primarily predicated on evidence. Specifically, that
| while police brutality is definitely a problem in the US,
| there's no evidence that it disproportionately impacts
| people of color. When you look at the actual data, it
| seems that police like to brutalize and kill innocent
| suspects in a relatively colorblind manner. There are
| even a few outlier studies that suggest police actually
| show _greater_ restraint with black suspects, although
| those studies do have some methodological issues.
|
| It's effectively one of those "reals before feels"
| situations for those of us who prefer to view politics
| through a lens of actual data rather than baseless
| emotion.
|
| Nobody batted an eye when Daniel Shaver's murderer was
| cleared. The protests should have been explicitly anti-
| police-brutality, not race-baiting nonsense.
| beerandt wrote:
| Because many on the right (and center and left) are naive
| enough to think that left-leaning groups/entity protests
| getting "mostly peaceful" positive coverage during the
| height of lockdowns in 2020 was actually an unbiased
| shift of norms, and not just media partisanship.
| defaultname wrote:
| It arises when supporting a group is all that matters,
| and one's "values" morph and twist into whatever is
| optimal to support the tribe at any given moment. It
| yields a lot of meaningless words.
|
| This happens all over the political spectrum. It happens
| in technology discussions. It happens in, as another post
| said, sports commentary.
|
| Without values it's just loads of angry spittle.
| good8675309 wrote:
| The definition of an insurrection is "a violent uprising
| against an authority or government." Where is the violence?
| I'm seeing people dancing and enjoying themselves. So much
| joy. It's like a big festival. People are helping each other
| and coming together. I see families and food banks being
| filled, trash cleaned up. Please post videos of all the
| violence. Btw, you can see an endless feed of the types of
| events I've described on Youtube. The only violent act I saw
| was a confirmed antifa member running over civilians.
| Dig1t wrote:
| Exactly! The media portrayal of the events is so
| incongruous when you actually watch the videos and see the
| pictures of the protestors. The headlines do not match what
| these people are actually doing at all. They are playing
| hockey in the streets, walking around waving flags with
| "freedom" on them. Yes they're noisy, but that's what
| protests are all about right? Making noise to be heard.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| Because the majority of media in Canada is funded by the
| government under the guise of protecting home grown
| talent and such. It's heavily subsidized and has all
| sorts of benefits at taxpayers largesse in order to
| survive the competition from the US.
|
| Without that regulatory backing, it would be dead under a
| year.
| vkou wrote:
| The CBC is not 'the majority of media'.
|
| Some subset of Canadian media is required to publish some
| % of Canadian-produced content, but that does not make it
| _funded_ by the government.
|
| I don't know where this misinformation comes from, but I
| have some suspicions.
| mardifoufs wrote:
| What do you mean? You realize even private media receives
| massive subsidies in Canada? And that those subsidies are
| usually promised at election time meaning there is a
| clear incentive to not cross the party that promises the
| most money (vs let's say a party that promises to slash
| support for the media). Even provincial government are
| starting to provide massive amount of cash to "support
| our journalism"
| vkou wrote:
| Just about every man, woman, child, dog, or organization
| in the country receives government subsidies for one
| thing or another.
|
| What percentage of their budget is 'massive', and what
| conditions do they have to meet to receive them? Is
| shilling for the whigs one of them? Who determines that
| they've shilled enough? Do you have a source? One that's
| not a tabloid op-ed?
|
| I don't think your take on what 'media ran by the
| government' matches what media in countries where it is
| actually ran by the government looks like.
| peeters wrote:
| I don't believe there has been a level of violence that has
| been concerning or comparable to other protests. There has
| been the usual behaviour you see in these protests,
| including harassment of people wearing masks, healthcare
| workers, businesses, etc. A small amount of riot-associated
| behaviour like breaking windows of businesses. It has
| largely been peaceful.
|
| Overt violence isn't necessary to the definition of
| insurrection. Here are some other definitions I found:
|
| - "an act or instance of revolting against civil authority
| or an established government"
|
| - "a _usually_ violent attempt to take control of a
| government "
|
| https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insurrection
| _-david-_ wrote:
| >an act or instance of revolting against civil authority
| or an established government
|
| Which protest does not meet that criteria?
| peeters wrote:
| Most? You can protest against a government while still
| acknowledging its legitimacy.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Requiring an acknowledgement of a government's legitimacy
| seems like a bad thing. Ultimately I think "insurrection"
| is just being thrown around far too freely.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| I don't think the truckers are trying to say that the
| government is illegitimate though? They are saying the
| mandate laws are illegitimate.
| gruez wrote:
| 1. merriam-webster isn't a good source because they have
| a history of redefining words for activism purposes, eg.
| https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52993306
|
| 2. if violence isn't necessary for an "insurrection", and
| "revolting against civil authority or an established
| government" suffices, does that mean rosa parks or MLK
| are insurrectionists?
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| The "usually" violent was added to that dictionary in
| 2013.
| brnaftr361 wrote:
| Truncated for posting:
|
| Insurrection (?), n.: 1. A rising against civil or
| political authority, or the established government; open
| and active opposition to the execution of law in a city
| or state.
|
| "It is found that this city of old time hath made
| insurrection against kings, and that rebellion and
| sedition have been made therein."
|
| _Ezra iv. 19._
|
| 2. A rising in mass to oppose an enemy. [Obs.]
|
| Syn. -- Insurrection, Sedition, Revolt, Rebellion,
| Mutiny. Sedition is the raising of commotion in a state,
| as by conspiracy, without aiming at open violence against
| the laws. Insurrection is a rising of individuals to
| prevent the execution of law by force of arms. Revolt is
| a casting off the authority of a government, with a view
| to put it down by force, or to substitute one ruler for
| another. Rebellion is an extended insurrection and
| revolt. Mutiny is an insurrection on a small scale, as a
| mutiny of a regiment, or of a ship's crew.
|
| https://www.websters1913.com/words/Insurrection
| davewritescode wrote:
| BLM protestors were routinely arrested, beaten and teargassed
| on live TV for everyone to watch.
|
| Donating directly to a mob causing havoc thousands of miles
| away from you because you're annoyed that your coworkers did
| the same is why this country and frankly the western world is
| so entirely broken. This is a wonderful example of the politics
| of spite in action. Making the world a better place has gone
| out the window, it's simply about making the world a worse
| place for people you don't like
|
| Harassing people wearing masks and minding their own business
| and stealing from foodbanks because restaurants refuse to serve
| protestors isn't exactly peaceful.
|
| Where does this end? Is it ok for me to pay homeless people to
| stand outside your house with a rifle and scream at your house
| all night?
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| No they weren't!
|
| People protesting BLM didnt get scratched as America got
| together to condemn police brutality.
|
| Antifa, who highjacked the protests and torched cities, got
| arrested. But most were released by sympathetic DAs.
|
| In fairness the BLM organizers are getting arrested. For
| fraud.
| davewritescode wrote:
| I don't want to get political here, that's not my intention
| but this even was 100% peaceful protestors who just
| happened to be somewhere the President wanted to go were
| gassed for no reason.
|
| https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867532070/trumps-
| unannounced-...
| jeromegv wrote:
| As you are from Austin, you clearly have no idea that this is
| just more than bureaucrats but actual people live there. Many
| and have had to move out of their house as they couldn't sleep.
| This is honking all nights but also intimidating business
| owners, people walking by with a mask, verbal harassment, etc.
| This is all documented.
|
| The people in those protests are also anti-vaxers, while 90% of
| the population is vaccinated, so they don't represent the
| working class. The Qanon "Queen of Canada" and all their
| crazies are there, harassing health care workers. This is very
| much the 1% of crazies, the working class is extremely
| irritated by having their health care workers being harassed.
| tomas_nort wrote:
| altcognito wrote:
| > As one of the donors included in this hack, I am not entirely
| sure what they're out to accomplish.
|
| > as my neighborhood in Austin had police helicopters
|
| Well, they certainly accomplished one goal: Out foreign
| donations.
| talentedcoin wrote:
| Please, stick to messing up your own country, and leave Canada
| alone.
| good8675309 wrote:
| Yeah, well the establishment journalists are doing everything
| they can to cover for Trudeau. Meanwhile if you really want to
| be informed you can find tons of livestreams on Youtube from
| every angle of the protest in Ottawa, 1988 Watchman is good.
| I've been watching for over a week now and I've seen people
| helping and feeding each other. Filling the food banks, food
| banks are declining food donations now. Cleaning the streets.
| People dancing and singing, kids playing hockey in the streets.
| It's a big festival and a lot of people are showing up to
| celebrate and come together. It's inspiring in a time when
| people are so divided to see joyful people having fun.
| gruez wrote:
| > As one of the donors included in this hack, I am not entirely
| sure what they're out to accomplish.
|
| Find targets to cancel. ie.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich#Appointment_to_CE...
| sleepingadmin wrote:
| >As one of the donors included in this hack, I am not entirely
| sure what they're out to accomplish.
|
| No different than any other cancel culture etc.
|
| >Despite eye-rolling media mischaracterizations of these
| truckers as you-know-whats, it's a run of the mill workers
| strike.
|
| This is very important I learnt this weekend. Not to be glossed
| over.
|
| Trudeau himself attacked the convoy as fringe minority,
| racists, sexists, and white supremacists. The 'government
| accredited' media was very fast to show the nazi flag and
| confederate flags. Conveniently very expensive professional
| camera gear right there to take pictures.
|
| Yet the real media went around showing that the group is pretty
| diverse. https://notthebee.com/article/come-and-laugh-with-me-
| at-the-...
|
| So what gives? Well what happened? Antivaxxers are unemployed?
| But who are the antivaxxers? ~50% of black canadians are
| unwilling to get vaccinated. ~25% of arabic and indian
| canadians are unwilling. When the average is ~85%. It means
| whites are above 85%. I didn't know this.
|
| It means Trudeau and the 'government accredited' media who
| rushed out this narrative that they are white supremacists in
| fact knew they were disproportionally harming not-whites. That
| to label this convoy as white supremacist might discourage not-
| whites from joining. This 1 nazi flag has to be a journalist
| because the convoy is certainly not white supremacist.
|
| At what point does the 'government accredited' media who pushed
| this white supremacist narrative get labelled government
| propaganda?
| rwj wrote:
| I don't mind if it inconvenience the government, but they have
| severely impacted residential neighbourhoods as well. Others in
| the movement have blocked commercial traffic across the border,
| putting people jobs at risk.
|
| Ironically, I think these higher pressure activities will back
| fire. They could probably find a lot of support for easing
| restrictions, but destroying people's homes and jobs is not
| going to make or keep friends.
| _-david-_ wrote:
| You believe the same thing about BLM right? They took over
| residential areas and blocked commercial traffic from coming.
| Look at Chop/Chaz.
| rwj wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
| good8675309 wrote:
| They are leaving or have already left the residential areas:
| https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-mayor-says-truckers-have-
| ag...
| nverno wrote:
| It's not just a run of the mill worker's strike, though, it's
| tactically ingenious- they were able to put huge pressure on
| people very quickly without ever needing to get violent or
| aggressive. Good for them.
| rpmisms wrote:
| They're simply seizing the means of transportation, and
| reminding the government that the economy is dependent on
| them.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Yeah they failed massively at that. There were a few
| hundred trucks out of around 300,000, and they got
| denounced by their own unions. Basically the only thing
| they will do is inconvenience the government who doesn't
| want to look bad by removing them forcefully.
| barbazoo wrote:
| You don't know what you're talking about in terms of negative
| impact these illegal blockades of the borders have on the
| economy.
| annexrichmond wrote:
| Yeah I found it to be tone deaf when my supposedly progressive
| software eng colleagues would share videos of lockdown
| protestors on IG saying F you idiots, as they work their cushy
| job. A lot of these people were protesting because they _want_
| to work, and not be dependent on government handouts.
| msie wrote:
| The truckers were given TWO YEARS to get the jab and they
| refused to. They only need the jab if they are going into the
| United States and returning. They can do trucking within
| Canada without a jab. Also, the United States has imposed a
| similar mandate on truckers entering the US but I don't see
| the convoy protest that. 90% of truckers are vaccinated BTW.
|
| https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/unvaccinated-
| canad...
| tagoregrtst wrote:
| What to fear? Some lunatic calling an employer and citing
| Trudeau to say the donor supports homophobe racists. Its
| happened with other leaked lists.
|
| Another problem is that, if the Canadian government tightens
| the screws, the donation might be deemed material support for
| crime. BS, but I wouldn't trust the Canadian judiciary.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| GiveSendGo appears to be a Christian crowdfunding platform.
| Maybe it's nuanced but I am unable to see a Christian
| connection to the mask mandates or whatever the truckers are
| protesting.
| synthos wrote:
| It's especially ironic when they argue "their body their
| choice" w.r.t. vaccines. Then when asked about abortion only
| the most rational ones will see the parallel.
| hammock wrote:
| Might be a good idea to learn what they are protesting,
| before trying to draw connections between what they are
| protesting and other things like religion.
| 12bits wrote:
| talentedcoin wrote:
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-blocka...
|
| Mounties said in a release Monday that they became aware of a
| small organized group within the larger protest at Coutts.
|
| They say they had information that the group had access to a
| cache of firearms and ammunition. Officers seized long guns,
| handguns, multiple sets of body armour, a machete, a large
| quantity of ammunition and high-capacity firearm magazines.
| 0xy wrote:
| talentedcoin wrote:
| Lmfao, it's the RCMP saying this, but sure.
| newsclues wrote:
| Oka crisis in the 90s had gun battles between FN and the
| police/military
| cf100clunk wrote:
| This type of revelation will likely be commonplace in the
| days/weeks ahead as militant extremists are exposed.
| elevenoh wrote:
| You're eating up the propaganda.
|
| These are regular folks.
| mjfl wrote:
| There is also potential for it being false flag operations in
| order to justify more militaristic responses.
| redisman wrote:
| There will always be some opportunistic groups looking to
| cause more mayhem in chaotic situations like this. These
| protests have been literally "mostly peaceful" no?
| cf100clunk wrote:
| I got voted down for saying what you did but in a more
| terse, direct fashion. Too much heat in here with one-day
| HNers, yourself excepted.
| jacquesm wrote:
| one-day HN'ers can't downvote (400 Karma threshold)
| tablespoon wrote:
| >> This type of revelation will likely be commonplace in
| the days/weeks ahead as militant extremists are exposed.
|
| > There will always be some opportunistic groups looking to
| cause more mayhem in chaotic situations like this. These
| protests have been literally "mostly peaceful" no?
|
| Exactly. Didn't "Bugaloo Bois" try to hijack the Black
| Lives Matter protests?
|
| I think it's important to be careful, and not try to paint
| an entire protest movement with a small unreasonable
| minority that may be within or adjacent to it.
| mikeyouse wrote:
| Several of the most prominent acts of violence during the
| BLM protests were indeed Boogaloo Boys (murders of
| multiple police officers in Oakland, arson at a police
| precinct in Minneapolis, shooting up a different precinct
| with an AK-47 while shouting "Justice for Floyd!")
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Are we in the same reality?
|
| https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-pleads-guilty-
| minne...
| ceejayoz wrote:
| > These protests have been literally "mostly peaceful" no?
|
| That's fair, yes. Economically disruptive, but largely
| peaceful.
|
| I'd wager the left isn't going to pass "it's legal to run
| over protesters" in response to these, though.
| https://www.vox.com/2021/4/25/22367019/gop-laws-oklahoma-
| iow...
| manquer wrote:
| Sleep deprivation and continuous noise is considered
| torture under Geneva Convention and by the U.N.[1] and
| Canadian law[2]. U.S. and others have been condemned
| heavily for using such techniques and U.S. has since
| stopped (at least officially) even in black ops places
| like Gitmo.
|
| Protests and blockade are one thing, continuous noise in
| areas where people live and work is not peaceful .
|
| [1] https://tbinternet.ohchr.org/Treaties/CAT/Shared%20Do
| cuments...
|
| [2] https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/yes-sleep-
| deprivation-is-tor...
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| toqy wrote:
| It sucks that your neighbor has gathered many large
| trucks and is honking them for 18 hours a day in order to
| compel you to do something. Why isn't anyone doing
| anything about it? Now that you know you're being
| tortured what are your plans?
| sudosysgen wrote:
| If your noisy neighbor was setting of a blowhorn with a
| high duty cycle for multiple days with the express intent
| to cause harm to you, it would probably be fair to call
| that some form of assault.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > with the express intent to cause harm
|
| Citation?
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Do I need a citation that people honking to cause a
| distrubance intended to disturb?
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > Do I need a citation that people honking to cause a
| distrubance intended to disturb?
|
| Wow, that's _quite_ a comment and a remarkably
| transparent backpedaling from "intent to cause harm".
| sudosysgen wrote:
| From the Merriam Webster,
|
| Disturbance, 2) : noisy or violent activity : commotion
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| Good grief. Yes, a disturbance can refer to noise _or_
| violence, but that doesn 't imply that a noise is
| violence. This is the lowest quality argumentation I've
| seen on this site for a while.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| I'm giving a definition that applies to my own words.
| That's the way I meant distrubance. Also, it's not
| because something isn't violent that it isn't harmful.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| You specifically likened it to assault. A noisy protest
| is _annoying_ and it can _disturb the quiet_ but it isn't
| harmful in any sense that could be considered assault.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| It seems super disingenuous to imply that noisy protests
| are "violent" by citing laws and regulations which
| pertain to the treatment of detainees.
|
| Our media entertained a serious debate about whether
| looting or burning a neighborhood to the ground was
| "violence" or not, and the many preferred to refer to
| these events as "fiery but mostly peaceful protests". How
| did we go from that to tenuous analogies of torture?
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| From your own _overtly biased_ link:
|
| > Under the new law, an Oklahoma driver will no longer be
| liable for striking -- or even killing -- a person if the
| driver is "fleeing from a riot ... under a reasonable
| belief that fleeing was necessary to protect the motor
| vehicle operator from serious injury or death."
|
| Super disingenuous to characterize that as "it's legal to
| run over protesters".
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Never seen a cop get off with "I feared for my life", eh?
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| Occasionally self-defense laws protect guilty people, but
| that doesn't imply that the law _isn 't a self-defense
| law_. I'm sure there's lots of good criticism of this
| law, but characterizing it as the OP did is patent
| dishonesty. Even _Vox_ wasn 't willing to go that far
| ffs.
| karpierz wrote:
| Depends on how you define peaceful; if you consider it
| peaceful to make enough noise in a neighbourhood such that
| thousands cannot sleep there for weeks, then yes.
| kerneloftruth wrote:
| Yes. I've seen no evidence of stores being looted,
| businesses burned, or anybody throwing rocks at police --
| all of which were common in 2020 BLM protests.
| paulmd wrote:
| Well, now you have.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-police-
| arson-in...
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/coutts-protest-
| blocka...
|
| As for the police - helps that a lot of them were tacitly
| helping the rioters. As usual, giving them fuel and
| supplies, and ignoring clear-cut violations of the law.
| Why throw rocks at an ally?
|
| Toronto and other cities may have shut them down, but the
| Ottawa cops were pretty much assisting. Not really a
| surprise, cops are pretty right-wing aligned in general.
| adolph wrote:
| _On the footage, he described seeing two individuals
| lighting a fire in the lobby shortly after 5 a.m. Sunday.
| After the suspects leave, another individual is seen
| coming into view and quickly extinguishing the fire near
| the elevators, Munoz said._
|
| ...
|
| _Police have not confirmed any link between their
| investigation into this incident and the ongoing convoy
| protest._
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| From your own link:
|
| > Police have not confirmed any link between their
| investigation into this incident and the ongoing convoy
| protest.
|
| Anyway, there's a pretty considerable difference between
| whatever this was and the images of burned down
| neighborhoods in the US.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=kenosha+aftermath&client=
| saf...
| [deleted]
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Did they accidently query their own payroll?
|
| Trudeau's father had the Mounties plant bombs at civilians
| (Canadian citizens on Canadian soil) back in the 70's and tried
| to blame it on some political group to justify armed
| intervention [0].
|
| [0]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_controversies_involvin...
| xanaxagoras wrote:
| I didn't donate but I should have. My name would be in great
| company on that list.
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