[HN Gopher] Turbine "torture" for Greek islanders as wind farms ...
___________________________________________________________________
Turbine "torture" for Greek islanders as wind farms proliferate
Author : mdp2021
Score : 41 points
Date : 2022-02-11 12:21 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.channelnewsasia.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.channelnewsasia.com)
| scientism wrote:
| There was a case in France about a couple who was awarded a
| compensation because of the noise of a windfarm close to their
| house.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/08/french-couple-...
| Kalanos wrote:
| this is the kind of arrogance that got us into this mess
| [deleted]
| sandos wrote:
| They really need to dismantle their old turbines, that's for
| sure.
|
| Re-powering can probably give much more power output but with a
| fraction of the current number of turbines. I'm not sure how
| large and modern turbines fare against older and smaller ones, I
| sadly get a feeling that they're not much better or maybe even
| worse. I think blade tip speed needs to be high for high
| efficiency and that sounds like it can be noisy.
| V__ wrote:
| Maybe someone who works with turbines can clear this up for me,
| but are these some cheap or old turbines? I have nether heard a
| turbine that loud in my life.
|
| I found the value of 105 db at the source for a modern turbine,
| which would mean at a distance of about 700m the noise would be
| negligible. Possibly Greece doesn't have high enough standards
| for turbines and this is the result of a lowest-bidder kind of
| scenario?
| hirundo wrote:
| The light pollution is also a problem. 17 years ago I bought a
| lot in a rural subdivision and have lived there ever since. I
| consulted a light pollution map before buying here, as I'm an
| amateur astronomer. This is one of the darkest areas in the lower
| 48 states. I can just about read by the Milky Way on a clear
| night. I had my pick of the new subdivision when I bought here,
| and just barely chose to live on the East side, overlooking state
| land, instead of the West side, with a view of BLM land.
|
| Just this year a large wind farm has been built on that BLM land.
| The nearest turbine is over five miles away, so you can't hear
| them. But each one has a _bright_ red light at the top, I guess
| to warn aircraft. Even so far away, with about 20 of those lamps
| visible it destroys the night darkness, not just for sensitive
| astronomy, but even for a good night 's sleep.
|
| I just feel lucky that I'm on the other side of the subdivision
| and can't see them. That was a close escape. But a few lights are
| encroaching on my previously pristine view in the far distance as
| civilization approaches. But I probably have a few years left of
| dark nights, unlike my West-side neighbors.
| sandos wrote:
| "Even so far away, with about 20 of those lamps visible it
| destroys the night darkness, not just for sensitive astronomy,
| but even for a good night's sleep."
|
| I don't get this _at all_. I happen to live in Sweden, you know
| the dark, cold place.
|
| We have extremely short summer nights, and I can guarantee you
| that the SUN is so much brighter than your puny lights that its
| just silly. Nobody (well, almost) complains about that here.
| There are even many different solutions to, you know, block
| light from coming indoors. Or are you really sleeping outdoors?
| It just sounds so much like hyperbole.
| hirundo wrote:
| I sleep much better in real dark. I used to work night
| shifts, so have years of experience struggling to sleep with
| too much light. I never did adjust well to it. Now I probably
| take it too far, taping over the power light on the phone
| next to my bed, etc. But I know I sleep better with the
| blinds down even just to filter out the light from a full
| moon.
|
| No doubt for a lot of people light isn't a problem with sleep
| at all, particularly for younger people.
| quesera wrote:
| > The nearest turbine is over five miles away ... a bright red
| light at the top ... with about 20 of those lamps visible it
| destroys the night darkness ... even for a good night's sleep
|
| That sounds like a measurable decrease in quality, but to be
| fair you're starting from a highly unusual baseline.
|
| And I don't mean to be uncharitable, but when it comes to sleep
| effects (reported by others, apparently), I suspect that the
| light emitted from tower-mounted aircraft lights at a distance
| of five miles has a greater effect on their psychological
| perception than on their photon receptors.
|
| The light "pollution" of a full moon is surely larger than the
| tower lamps. And more variable over the night (the moon moves,
| towers do not).
| lupire wrote:
| point sources are more intense than diffuse sources.
| quesera wrote:
| The moon is effectively a point source of light.
|
| Of course it's neither a point nor a source, but in the
| night sky it acts like one.
|
| In dark locations, the moon can be bright enough to cast
| shadows indoors.
| Proven wrote:
| Tepix wrote:
| Consider me sceptical.
|
| In the the Netherlands, in the rich city of Noordwijk, some
| people claimed that the tourists would stay away before the
| placement of wind turbines near the coast. The wind turbines
| came. The tourists stayed.
|
| Didn't Trump sign some laws that would prevent wind turbines near
| his Florida property?
|
| #NIMBY
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _The tourists stayed_
|
| Mr. Tepix, people accept situations and practices you would
| never believe.
|
| And with your comment you were not even referring to Average
| Joe, Median Jack and Typical Maude, not even Random Randall:
| your mention was exactly of Selected Sam. "Those who remained,
| remained". "Meant was, in the same amount": the pool is vast.
|
| ...Can you believe this very post received anonymous mark of
| downvotes, Mr. Tepix? When you lay your consideration on
| people, record their wild behaviour for something that teaches
| you about people, not about norm.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Seem overheated. "Can't even sleep for the noise" has to be a lie
| - they haven't died from lack of sleep, which would happen
| surely?
|
| No, they make noise, and they're resented, and any excuse is made
| to slang them.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _has to be a lie - they haven 't died from lack of sleep_
|
| It does not work like that.
|
| This close acquaintance of mine had an accident, and he spent
| every night in years not really sleeping, but bearing attention
| to the damages borne in the accident, which remained too loud
| to allow his conscience to go in normal sleep. He spent his
| nights listening to the pain. People would guess a largely
| wrong age looking at him, or would say he looked horribly - but
| he survives today.
| wrp wrote:
| That is a good analogy. It is very similar to dealing with
| chronic pain that prevents you from ever getting a good
| sleep.
| JoeAltmaier wrote:
| Exactly. Pain is a real problem.
|
| Billions of people live with a constant background of city
| noise. These folks on the island have a new noise, to be
| sure. And some resent it, that's clear. And they may even get
| themselves worked up over it.
|
| But billions don't do those things and live a good life.
| Because noise is something our minds are exquisitely adapted
| to filtering. Unlike pain or hunger, our brains ignore sounds
| all the time, all day long, everywhere we go.
|
| So I think, again, that the 'windmills make sound' argument
| is specious.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _Agii Apostoli was a picturesque seaside village ... Now it is
| ringed by towering wind turbines whose night lights and whirring
| sounds are tantamount to daily "torture", locals say. ... "Wind
| turbines have been installed on mountain peaks, in forests, near
| archaeological sites, on islands, in protected habitats" ...
| "This is torture, we can no longer sleep for the noise"_
|
| It is called, in some regions, a "silver bullet", a solution that
| may look plausible (or is presented as such), but that upon
| actual consideration involves difficulties, tradeoffs, and
| feasibility constraints which may be initially hidden.
|
| The noise pollution involved by wind turbines is not into
| everyone's awareness.
|
| It may be a minor inconvenience for those who live in some
| metropolitan areas (<<Noise is so pervasive here that even sirens
| are set twice as loud>>, or <<I am looking for good noise
| protecting earmuffs for my newborn for when I will take her
| around outside>> - signed, different friends of yours truly in
| the Big-C-City), but the unfortunate thing is that they tend to
| place wind turbines exactly in the conceptually opposite places -
| the middle of the wilderness, the "deliverance" places.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Infrasounds are weird. They are hard to measure correctly with
| off the shelf equipment that's usually used for noise
| complaints and they affect people very differently.
|
| Some people don't notice a constant infrasound at all, others
| start getting a "dreamy" feeling and a constant feeling of ...
| something weird. Both of which are really hard to quantify and
| measure.
|
| There are even studies that kinda sorta link "haunting" with
| sources of infrasound.
| PretzelPirate wrote:
| I really wish this article included a recording of the
| sounds. I have no idea what they sound like and if it would
| bother me.
|
| I personally love the look of wind farms, but maybe the noise
| would make me equally as upset as the people in the article.
| goodpoint wrote:
| Here's a video with a recording of sound intensity of wind
| generators (not infrasounds tho)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKgN2G9d0dc
| theshrike79 wrote:
| It's like tinnitus. It's bearable when you get a mild case
| from a concert and then it goes away.
|
| But when it sticks and you're at your second decade of 24/7
| _eeeeeeeeeee_ in your ear, at times it gets to you really
| bad and you just want to claw your eardrums off.
| jdsully wrote:
| I got it as a teenager from a cycling accident. It took
| me 20 years before I was finally able to say to myself
| "I'm fine with this". It did happen though, and for
| anyone else suffering it can get easier to deal with
| given time.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _would make me equally as upset_
|
| You may be unable to tell in advance. There comes a point
| in which you break and what was "not even perceived", not
| just "tolerable", before, becomes unbearable later.
|
| You have to consider the constant exposure, and the
| fluctuation of your resistance, and consider the effect of
| the burden in the times of lower resistance. The issue is
| not with the stress of the weight lifted when you are
| vigorous, but that which will be when you will be weak.
| goodpoint wrote:
| An infrasound at 1Hz is essentially a puff of air every
| second. Open and close a door in a small room and you'll get
| a pretty strong one.
|
| If it was inherently harmful we wouldn't be able to open a
| window on any windy day.
|
| Or perhaps there's something hypnotic due to the frequency
| being so constant?
| [deleted]
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Wind doesn't pulse at exactly 1Hz for weeks, it also
| doesn't carry the same frequency over tens of kilometers.
| [0]
|
| It's easy to handle anything for a while, like a crying
| child during a 30 minute bus ride. But when the same noise
| is extended over a 14 hour flight with no way to escape,
| you'll start to feel it.
|
| Some people handle auditory interruptions better than
| others. Infrasound, to my knowledge, hasn't been really
| studied in a cross-field type of way. It's always just
| engineers doing measurements with meters and drawing
| graphs. There are very few studies on the psychological
| effects of man-made infrasound.
|
| [0] https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.100
| 2/201...
| mrjangles wrote:
| And tell me, what do you think would happen if they started
| building wind turbines in the middle of cities? There is no
| reason you couldn't fill Central Park in New York with them.
| Maybe put one on top of every building? You could have
| thousands of huge turbines powering every city.
|
| I wonder why no one ever seems to suggest that?
| philipkglass wrote:
| Installing wind power in cities would make wind power several
| times more expensive.
|
| - Land in cities is far more expensive than the land where
| wind farms are currently built, so the electricity costs
| would be higher.
|
| - Cities are already densely built up so it would be much
| more difficult to get the long turbine blades delivered for
| installation, raising costs again.
|
| - Cities have worse wind resources because the built up
| environment impedes smooth, fast air flow. Turbines built in
| the middle of cities would generate less electricity over the
| course of a year, raising cost per kilowatt hour for a third
| time.
|
| You can't build efficient (megawatt scale) turbines on top of
| buildings, and little turbines are basically gimmicks that
| don't supply significant energy. Rooftop solar power
| generates more energy at lower cost than little rooftop
| turbines.
| kobalsky wrote:
| construction would be waaaay more expensive.
|
| there are also video compilations of wind turbine failures,
| tons of raining debris in a metropolis is not a good idea so
| construction and quality control standards would have to
| improve which would make it even more expensive.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| (First of all, Sean, I am glad you are still with us and I
| plan to see your last television appearance in a few hours,
| as it will be broadcast tonight. You will remain unforgotten,
| Mr. Jangles, or should I call you "Ron".)
|
| There may be a misunderstanding there, if my reference to
| people minimizing the idea of the impact of noise because
| they live in the screams already, is taken as a suggestion
| that wind turbines should be placed on every roof. The
| messages were, (1), that noise is a problem even if you think
| it does not bother you, and, (2), if you had unpolluted
| places and you ruin them, you destroy your alternatives left.
| Noise pollution should be fought, period.
|
| The expression <<It may be a minor inconvenience for those
| who live in some metropolitan areas>> was rhetoric, as in
| "Some people used to noisy environment may tend to minimize
| the issue [but that kind of infrastructure is often placed
| there where living things go look for quiet]".
| pjc50 wrote:
| Years ago, there was a bit of a fad for small turbines on
| roofs. However, wind turbine cost efficiency scales
| positively with size. They also "shade" nearby turbines from
| the airflow, and the presence of buildings and ground clutter
| further reduces the efficiency. You may have noticed that
| it's not as windy in Central Park (or any other park) as it
| is on the Atlantic coast.
|
| So the optimal wind turbine is (a) extremely large and (b) at
| sea or near the coast. You get things like this with 100m
| blades: https://www.ge.com/renewableenergy/wind-
| energy/offshore-wind...
|
| There is also a little bit of a safety issue. The possibility
| of losing a 100m blade or part thereof is low, but you
| wouldn't want that in a city.
|
| (I appreciate the "I don't want that near me" view, but that
| means that person wants it near someone else? Or some other
| solution that nobody wants to be near either?)
| nomel wrote:
| If it's in the countryside, it's being put far away from
| the people/regions that benefit the most, and closer to
| those that are undesirably impacted the most.
|
| edit: This was just an observation in response to ""I don't
| want that near me" view, but that means that person wants
| it near someone else?"
|
| There's a huge imbalance between the major consumer
| (cities) and people in the countryside (where the turbines
| end up).
| tzs wrote:
| Here's a company working on small rooftop wind turbines [1].
|
| There are several other prototype wind power generation
| designs that would also probably be suitable for building-top
| use. Here's a 17 minute video looking at several of them [2].
|
| [1] https://www.halcium.com/
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGfB4najfM
| raxxorrax wrote:
| Energy transport is difficult but there would be much better
| locations, especially for islands. This is just mismanagement.
| rjsw wrote:
| Where would be better? I think the Aegean Sea is quite deep
| so it wouldn't be possible to attach wind turbines to the
| seabed.
| throw0101a wrote:
| Floating turbines are possible:
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_wind_turbine
| cinntaile wrote:
| These are mostly in the prototype phase.
| [deleted]
| dogma1138 wrote:
| I'm not sure if there are better actually solution. A single
| wind turbine near a farmhouse brings out some warm ecofuture
| vibes however right now it seems more likely that what we
| will get is every hill top and the horizon near ever beach
| polluted with turbines.
|
| Off shore wind farms are a nice idea until they block your
| entire view of the sea.
|
| Wind should be a small scale solution for remote locations.
|
| It doesn't seem to me that any implementation of it on an
| industrial scale can be achieved without an environmental
| disaster of a different kind.
|
| Small Nuclear Reactors and fusion really can't come fast
| enough.
| wrp wrote:
| Having experienced extended exposure to the kind of low-
| frequency noise emitted by wind farms and its effect on
| psychological health, I feel it is not at all hyperbole to
| call it "torture."
|
| I'm afraid that even in most urban areas, the low-frequency
| noise would stand out from typical background noise and have
| noticeable health effects on the community.
|
| There is a growing literature on the health effects of low-
| frequency noise, and also on (mostly losing) battles of
| communities against nearby wind farms.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > I feel it is not at all hyperbole to call it "torture."
|
| Unfortunately, the topic of windmills is getting politized,
| and complaining against the negative effects is now being
| ridiculed and tried to antivaxxing and luddism.
|
| > > There is a growing literature on the health effects of
| low-frequency noise, and also on (mostly losing) battles of
| communities against nearby wind farms.
|
| If even Trump couldn't prevent a wind farm near one of his
| Scottish properties, it's indeed mostly battles being lost:
|
| https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/joe-biden-just-
| broug...
|
| While nimbism may play a large role, the negative health
| effects reported by many people like you should not be
| neglected.
|
| And I just don't understand why the damage to the wildlife
| is almost never mentionned.
| tdsamardzhiev wrote:
| Yeah, reading the comments, I was surprised how
| personally some people seem to take it.
|
| >> has to be a lie - they haven't died from lack of sleep
|
| C'mon guys, you can't be serious?!
| lm28469 wrote:
| > I'm afraid that even in most urban areas, the low-
| frequency noise would stand out from typical background
| noise
|
| Especially since most cities get much quieter at night.
| raxxorrax wrote:
| I believe it. Frequencies in that regions are known to
| cause discomfort. In my opinion they shouldn't be build
| anywhere near areas where people live.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _they shouldn 't be build anywhere near areas where
| people live_
|
| Surely, that societies have a clear idea that noise
| pollution must be a concern would be duly and civilized -
|
| but, that territory impairing infrastructure is placed in
| the few quiet places remaining, is a special kind of
| madness in itself.
|
| Also considering that urban areas in many territories
| already are a huge compromise in terms of quiet, so you
| will want to keep the few unpolluted places remaining as
| a reserve...
| BoxOfRain wrote:
| Certainly not my area of expertise but would it be
| possible to arrange the turbines in such a manner the
| phase of the sound waves they're generating cancels out
| the harmful infrasound?
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _better locations_
|
| That is an inherent difficulty with wind turbines, because
| the most efficient places for wind tend to be the places of
| optimal sound broadcast.
|
| Though location wise, one big point would be: "Alongside the
| motorway? Ok, consistent. // In the middle of paradise?
| (...Speechless.)"
|
| To place wind turbines where busy infrastructure already is
| would facilitate energy transport.
| raxxorrax wrote:
| I thought about offshore installations in this case. But it
| is still very expensive. Otherwise proximity to users would
| make sense too.
| black_puppydog wrote:
| I just had to check this and with a bit of clicking around and
| searching I think I found most of the areas the article is
| writing about.
|
| If you really want to, click this link: https://overpass-
| turbo.eu/s/1fZE (but be gentle because I don't know how well the
| overpass APIs scale...)
|
| Here you can see the northernmost turbine in the area, the one
| also closest to Petries, mentioned in the caption of the top
| picture:
|
| https://i.imgur.com/8rBjHbp.png
|
| That's here:
|
| http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/mesure-distance_315118#1...
|
| That's just about 660m away from the next village. That's
| starting to be uncomfortably close in terms of noise indeed. Way
| to make sure you'll have justified opposition right there. *sigh*
|
| I'm not very sympathetic to the visual complaints -- car
| infrastructure already ruins many a landscape, I actually don't
| mind the turbines -- but the noise argument I agree with; proper
| distance (adapted to the geography) must be maintained.
|
| Edited to fix overpass link
| phoinix wrote:
| amatecha wrote:
| I was curious about this subject and found a video[0] of a
| couple whose house is about the same distance (1600 feet or 487
| meters)... In this case the turbine even casts a shadow on
| their home and property which is SUPER jarring.
|
| I'm not sure people realize but wind turbines are pretty darn
| loud (check at 2:55 in the video), that's exactly what they
| sound like at times. There's honestly _zero excuse_ to build
| something that loud anywhere within audible range of peoples '
| homes.
|
| [0] https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=f7DQ3SgSg0c
| pasabagi wrote:
| How does that compare in dB to a road?
|
| PS: checked it out myself, from some light googling:
|
| Road decibel levels are about 55 dB (averaged over a day) for
| about 30% of the EU population.
|
| Wind turbines are supposedly 43 decibels if they are within a
| few hundred meters of a house. I guess it probably varies a
| lot depending on the turbine in question.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _How does that compare in dB to a road?_
|
| Even if it compared it wouldn't make it much better,
| because those islands don't have any sizable traffic on
| roads - and almost insignificant near those villages.
|
| So, its like suddenly they have to put up with road-level
| noise (if not worse), on their remote village in some
| remote island - and not even from their own cars.
|
| At those distances it's like suddenly all around your
| village there's a airconditioner-level noise... Mighty
| annoying to people who have enjoyed mostly nature-level
| silence for all of their lives...
| themaninthedark wrote:
| Difference is that road noise would be varying and mostly
| abate at night. Wind turbine noise would be constant with
| wind speed at all hours.
| pasabagi wrote:
| On the other hand, roads are dirty, polluting, and
| occasionally kill your cat.
| coldtea wrote:
| On the other other hand, those islands and places didn't
| have any significant traffic.
|
| So, it's not like an additional similar noise to what
| they've been used to, just less polluting and dangerous
| for their cat. It's a new noise level they're forced to
| put up with.
| mlac wrote:
| Fans occasionally kill your birds and the neighborhood
| bald eagle.
| NobodyNada wrote:
| That link didn't work for me (returned a 403), apparently
| it's just a weird YouTube link:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7DQ3SgSg0c&t=175
| amatecha wrote:
| Yeah, Invidious[0] is an alternative front-end for YouTube
| so you can avoid ads & tracking. Another host:
| https://invidious.privacy.gd/watch?v=f7DQ3SgSg0c
|
| [0] https://invidious.io/
| phoinix wrote:
| logicalmonster wrote:
| Perhaps this is a very dumb question, but how have people around
| the world living on smaller islands gotten their electricity in
| recent decades? Are they connected to the mainland's electrical
| grid, do they run their central own central power generator, or
| do individuals just use gas/solar power if they need electricity?
| I don't know about other nations with many islands, but in
| Greece's case, there are loads of small islands ranging from just
| a few people to hundreds to tens of thousands, so it probably
| makes a centralized infrastructure very hard.
| [deleted]
| wildzzz wrote:
| Power usually comes from fossil fuels on islands like this.
| Even a group of islands as large as Hawaii used 73% fossil
| fuels in 2017. Small, poor islands are going to almost entirely
| run off of fossil fuels since investment in energy
| infrastructure is expensive.
| jdrc wrote:
| Oil. The islands have been early adopters of renewables (they
| are ideally fit) . Solar water heaters are common since many
| decades. No gas infrastructure
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| Would it be possible to use "active noise control" (reverse-
| amplitude sound waves) to cancel out the sound?
| Steltek wrote:
| What is the difference between wind turbines and highways or
| utility poles festooned with cables?
|
| It seems to me that the key thing is that the latter were
| installed a long time ago and acceptance is baked into life. But
| if you think about it, utility poles with cables running
| everywhere are a more invasive eye sore. And listing all the
| problems with highways here would certainly hit the character
| limit.
|
| There's a lot surrounding us in modern life that if you step
| back, you might see a problem. Wind turbines are new so they're
| under the microscope. But if they've enabled Greece to cut its
| coal power substantially, they're certainly worth it.
| wrp wrote:
| > What is the difference between wind turbines and highways or
| utility poles festooned with cables?
|
| Assuming this is an honest question, both the frequency profile
| and decibel level are dramatically different. Frequency profile
| is the main factor of concern. People have considerable ability
| to adjust to white noise, but not noise dominated by certain
| harmonics. I'm too lazy to look up references right now, but
| you can search on effects of low-frequency noise. By the way,
| I'm not referring to infrasound, which is frequency below the
| hearing threshold, and whose health effects are less well
| established or studied.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _they 're certainly worth it_
|
| You think that people speak of torture lightly?
|
| > _What is the difference between wind turbines and ... utility
| poles festooned with cables_
|
| If you turn, you do not see the poles, but you hear the
| turbines.
|
| > _What is the difference between wind turbines and highways_
|
| 1) Not many people seem to have called highways "unbearable".
|
| 2) Some linear segments of highways run into the wilderness,
| spoiling an area according to the distance to a line. Some
| clusters of wind turbines are placed in the wilderness as a
| cloud of broadcasters, spoiling an area according to the
| distance to an area.
|
| 3) There are little alternatives to highways.
|
| Edit:
|
| and:
|
| > _There 's a lot surrounding us in modern life that if you
| step back, you might see a problem_
|
| So let us encourage the public to see evident problems
| immediately, instead of "discovering" them later, post facto.
| acdha wrote:
| > You think that people speak of torture lightly?
|
| Yes. It's easy to find people who claim, for example, that's
| it's torture to wear a mask during the pandemic. This is
| especially common with NIMBYs who are trying to make their
| case sound more persuasive than "I don't like change".
|
| That's not to say that there aren't valid complaints here but
| it's important to remember the selection bias: people who
| don't mind don't seek out reporters to tell their story.
| There's a long history of this -- I'm reminded of the various
| "electro-sensitivity" hoaxes involving complaints about cell
| towers starting months before they were even powered on -- so
| the first thing you'd want to ask is how broadly shared these
| concerns are, followed by the trade offs (living next to a
| windmill beats living next to a coal power plant, for
| example), and putting it in perspective (windmills kill
| birds, but so do windows and fossil fuel plants - both at
| much greater rates).
| jevoten wrote:
| Part of the difference could be due to infrasound - the noise
| from wind turbines has a low-frequency component that has been
| reported to affect health.
|
| The other part (and I'm speculating here) could be because the
| noise from wind turbines is non-constant - the noise of a
| highway can largely fade into the background, while a turbine
| makes periodic *whoosh* noises that are harder to get used to.
| hrnn wrote:
| People get also used to living nearby airports. But I'll
| concede that usually airports are there before you move in.
| fy20 wrote:
| I had family who lived right next to (200m from the
| perimeter fence) Heathrow Airport, and you got used to the
| noise. The only time you really noticed it was when
| Concorde took off in the morning, and all the windows
| shook...
| 99_00 wrote:
| >What is the difference between wind turbines and highways or
| utility poles festooned with cables?
|
| All make noise, are eyesores or both. All also have benefits.
|
| The residents have judged the benefits of highways and utility
| poles festooned with cables running everywhere outweigh the
| cost. They've also judged that the benefits of the turbines do
| not outweigh the costs.
| lupire wrote:
| > The residents have judged the benefits of highways and
| utility poles festooned with cables running everywhere
| outweigh the cost
|
| who? when?
| lonelyasacloud wrote:
| If the background level of noise and clutter is already high
| then yes,less of a noticable problem (although various studies
| strongly suggest reducing noise pollution in particular would
| be good for public health, e.g.
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8460383/).
|
| The thing is wind turbines are not installed in towns and
| cities; they go in the countryside. And in Greece with its
| climate, add into the mix a significant tourism economy and
| many homes that are both single-glazed and with no a/c. Is it
| really so hard to believe that their grievance might not be
| justified?
| mdp2021 wrote:
| The parent-linked article: _Increase in mortality rates due
| to aircraft noise_. (<<...people near Los Angeles
| International Airport (LAX) suffer a 5% increase in mortality
| rates due to increases in a number of fatal diseases. ... an
| 18% increase in cardiovascular deaths, for people over 75 at
| a 97% confidence level ... The number of suicides in the age
| bracket 45-54 was increased by the jet noise by over 100% at
| a 99% confidence level. Total accidental deaths increased by
| over 60% in the age group above 75 at a 96% confidence
| level>>).
|
| I submitted weeks ago the study and divulgation "Exposure to
| Traffic Noise Linked to Higher Dementia Risk",
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29686233
|
| The results of the studies can be quite surprising.
| hcknwscommenter wrote:
| "LINKED" and "increased BY jet noise" are doing a lot of
| work here. Could be lead. Could be that poorer people (who
| tend to also be less healthy, no fault of their own) tend
| to be clustered in areas of higher noise, which is
| absolutely true. Correlation is not causation.
| amatecha wrote:
| Utility poles with cables aren't casting massive, fast-moving
| shadows on your property/home or keeping you awake at night (or
| just ruining your day) with the loud rotational
| scraping/whooshing noises you can hear a kilometer away. Check
| 2:20 and 2:55 in this video I came across
| https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=f7DQ3SgSg0c .. Have fun
| hanging out in your yard listening to that.
| ameminator wrote:
| Sorry, that link looks to be dead!
| amatecha wrote:
| Ah, it's Invidious, an alternative front-end for YouTube
| (no ads/tracking!) ... another host is here:
| https://invidious.privacy.gd/watch?v=f7DQ3SgSg0c
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