[HN Gopher] Long-term cardiovascular outcomes of Covid-19
___________________________________________________________________
Long-term cardiovascular outcomes of Covid-19
Author : dv_dt
Score : 101 points
Date : 2022-02-07 19:17 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| throwaway22032 wrote:
| The meat of this seems to be in confirming that if you're not
| hospitalized the long-term effects are minimal. Not _zero_, but
| very small.
|
| The abstract states that "These risks and burdens were evident
| even among individuals who were not hospitalized during the acute
| phase of the infection", but I'd urge attention to the data as
| this implies only that there is a detectable change, it's not a
| judgement on the size of the risk.
|
| The worst cases are in intubated patients that basically lost
| proper oxygen flow for extended periods of time.
| wwweston wrote:
| I'd guess you're being downvoted because the article describes
| a different conclusion:
|
| "[long term] risks and burdens were evident even among
| individuals who were not hospitalized during the acute phase of
| the infection."
|
| Though it does seem to make a distinction in _grade_ ( "these
| risks increased in a graded fashion according to the care
| setting during the acute phase (non-hospitalized, hospitalized
| and admitted to intensive care)"), it doesn't seem to support
| the idea that the impacts are limited to the hospitalized.
| throwaway22032 wrote:
| Yes, it's evident in the scientific sense of the word - the
| risks exist.
|
| They're just very small. If you look at the data, the risk
| ratios are in the range of 1.0x-2.0x, on outcomes which in
| healthy individuals are extremely rare to begin with. Same
| with the excess figures.
|
| The logical conclusion given the rest of the data is that
| these outcomes would be concentrated in those who were very
| ill but below the threshold of hospitalization.
|
| The study itself doesn't bin the groups far enough to show
| the implication for the asymptomatic or those with very minor
| symptoms, but there's a clear exponential trend that
| associates acute severity with long-term severity supra-
| linearly.
| dv_dt wrote:
| Individually maybe small (I actually am not sure 1-2x seem
| like a minimization of the impact but I'd leave it to
| further reading and discussion to settle that), but in a
| public health sense it might mean a doubling of cardio
| treatment resources in a system where growing those
| resources is not a fast response and could have follow on
| effects on quality and availability of treatments.
| [deleted]
| dekhn wrote:
| replying just to emphasize that relative risks always sound
| huge until you find out they're relative to a very small
| baseline.
| robrorcroptrer wrote:
| Sorry I genuinely do not understand what this means.
| Could it be explained in some other wording?
| npinsker wrote:
| This means that expressing changes in a tiny value
| relative to its baseline (e.g. "3x as likely") sounds
| more impactful than expressing the same changes in
| absolute terms (e.g. "from 0.01% to 0.03%").
| mvcalder wrote:
| I bought one lottery ticket. Then I went back and bought
| two more, now I have 3-times the chance to win $100
| million!
| dTal wrote:
| You have moved the goalposts from "not hospitalized" to
| "asymptomatic or very minor symptoms". About half the
| people I know who got covid (and knew about it) had, or are
| currently having, a very unpleasant time.
| throwaway22032 wrote:
| The study itself states that in patients that are not
| hospitalized the risks of various heart conditions
| increase on average by ~1.5-2x.
|
| That's for the entire cohort of non-hospitalized
| individuals, it's an average.
|
| If you assume that they're uniformly distributed (e.g. if
| you assume that the relative risk of future myocarditis
| is identical for someone who has no symptoms, and for
| someone who's bedridden for a week with breathing
| difficulties but non-hospitalized), the figures show that
| if you're not hospitalized your risk of myocarditis and
| other heart issues is multiplied by about 2.
|
| If the study were binned more finely I think you'd see a
| 5x multiplier if you have mild illness (mild in the
| clinical sense which simply means non-hospitalized but
| exhibiting symptoms) or no discernable effect if
| asymptomatic. I agree that there is no specific data for
| this, I'm extrapolating the curve.
|
| > About half the people I know who got covid (and knew
| about it) had, or are currently having, a very unpleasant
| time.
|
| We're not debating this point, this is a paper showing
| the correlation between the short term and long term
| effects of the disease.
| dTal wrote:
| You say "only" a doubling of the risk of rare heart
| related issues, over the course of a single year. I say
| gee, it sure sounds like the virus _massively_ fucked
| with their system. _Large_ statistical anomalies are
| measurable an entire year later. Whether the baseline
| risk of such issues is high or low is irrelevant, since
| the main takeaway is that _everyone_ basically gets Long
| Covid, to a greater or lesser extent. Remember that this
| isn 't the _only_ measurable effect either - it 's just
| the one this paper is talking about, and it fits into a
| wider pattern of research indicating systemic damage even
| in so-called "minor" cases.
|
| Again, speaking from both personal anecdata and the wider
| scientific consensus - if you have symptomatic covid, it
| takes you a _long_ time to feel "normal" again.
| timr wrote:
| > Large statistical anomalies are measurable an entire
| year later.
|
| Doubling of a very small number is not a "large
| statistical anomaly". Figure 5 shows that the difference
| is skewed strongly toward the hospitalized, and that the
| largest difference observed for the non-hospitalized
| cohort is measured at _maybe_ 10 per 1,000 (1%) and most
| well-below that (single-digit difference per 1,000).
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01689-3/figure
| s/5
| throwaway22032 wrote:
| The data doesn't imply that ~everyone has long term
| effects because we don't know the distribution in the
| non-hospitalized cases.
|
| > if you have symptomatic covid, it takes you a long time
| to feel "normal" again.
|
| The non-hospitalized group in this study includes both
| symptomatic and asymptomatic.
|
| This comment thread is a bit weird, you seem to be
| attacking me on an emotional basis. I'm interested
| because I think this data shows a good correlation
| between severity of disease and severity of long term
| prognosis, that's all.
|
| I have an interest in knowing this, as we all do, because
| like basically everyone else, I've had coronavirus, and
| if the data shows that this now means I have an elevated
| risk of heart issues I should be careful with things like
| heavy exercise. I don't think it does based on the
| correlation shown (I didn't have severe coronavirus), so
| it's actionable information.
|
| If you disagree with my assessment that a 2x multiplier
| on a rare event is not worrisome, that's fine - that's
| just like, my opinion, man. :)
| timr wrote:
| > You have moved the goalposts from "not hospitalized" to
| "asymptomatic or very minor symptoms". About half the
| people I know who got covid (and knew about it) had, or
| are currently having, a very unpleasant time.
|
| And 100% of the people I know who had it (measured in the
| tens; including myself) have had no lingering symptoms at
| all.
|
| Anecdotes are not science. It is not "moving the
| goalposts" to note that lingering symptoms correlate with
| severity. The authors of the paper have _already shown
| this_ , but didn't break it down enough.
| ProAm wrote:
| My heart had wild palpitations for several days in the midst of
| having covid and post covid my resting heart rate is ~20bpm
| higher during the day and ~30 bpm higher during the night.
| arghnoname wrote:
| I had a very similar reaction that correlates to getting the
| vaccine. It took months for my resting heart rate to return to
| pre-vaccination levels. Maybe this means I would have died had
| I caught covid, maybe not, no way to know. It's scary how much
| this spike protein / immune response / etc seems to provoke
| adverse cardiovascular responses, even if there is full
| recovery in most of us.
| james_burden wrote:
| I had already had covid 2x prior to general vaccine
| availability. I got totally owned in the short term but was
| back to working out pretty quick. The second Moderna shot
| completely wrecked me in a way having covid didn't, I had
| severe heart palps/skips for weeks. Sitting/standing at my
| desk and just having one after the other and would lose my
| breath between them. After that decided boosters could fuck
| off.
| dv_dt wrote:
| The vaccine is the safer controlled introduction to it in
| comparison to getting a full covid exposure. In a full covid
| case w/o being vaccinated would introduce more spike protein
| as well as a exposure to the sequences of the rest of the
| virus which could cause all sorts of other issues.
| nwiswell wrote:
| > It's scary how much this spike protein / immune response /
| etc seems to provoke adverse cardiovascular responses, even
| if there is full recovery in most of us.
|
| Honestly I am wondering if this is sampling bias. Have we
| ever paid this much concentrated attention to a disease? When
| you consider what a virus does to the body, it seems likely
| that many other viruses that have been endemic for millennia
| have been wreaking pernicious havoc on our bodies and we
| just... shrugged it off.
|
| Anyplace the body heals from a significant physical injury,
| there is a scar. It's never a perfect restoration. It seems
| almost intuitive that the damage from a virus would be
| similar, and there is documented evidence that COVID will
| attack neurons.
| [deleted]
| dv_dt wrote:
| If you look at Fig1, describing the cohort selection, this
| study has two control groups. A historical as well as a
| contemporary control group. This gives an two different
| sample sources to reason about sampling bias. The data
| presented here are very likely not bias in the way your
| describing as it because of the contrast to both controls
| that would capture "it's always been that way" effect.
| nwiswell wrote:
| > The data presented here are very likely not bias in the
| way your describing as it because of the contrast to both
| controls that would capture "it's always been that way"
| effect.
|
| That's not really what I said -- I'm not actually taking
| a stance on the conclusions of this paper. COVID has
| obviously been infecting massive numbers of people in the
| last couple of years, and if it is responsible for long-
| term cardiovascular sequelae as the paper concludes, of
| course it would be a more acute contributor over that
| period as compared to other historical causes simply by
| virtue of its pervasiveness.
|
| Rather what I said is that the disease itself may not be
| cause "havoc" in the body at rates significantly
| different than other endemic viruses ("havoc" writ large:
| not only confined to cardiovascular sequelae, but among
| any long-term systemic harms). The bias that I am
| proposing is that we are _noticing_ these sequelae
| because A) so many people are getting sick at the same
| time, and B) because we are paying this much attention
| for the first time ever.
| dv_dt wrote:
| Other endemic viruses that don't show up in the
| historical control group? What definition of endemic are
| you thinking of?
| timr wrote:
| > If you look at Fig1, describing the cohort selection,
| this study has two control groups. A historical as well
| as a contemporary control group. This gives an two
| different sample sources to reason about sampling bias.
|
| There's a clear difference in health between the cohorts.
|
| Supplementary table 1 breaks down the cohorts and
| summarizes co-variates. Disturbingly, the COVID cohort is
| significantly fatter than the contemporary control group:
|
| https://static-
| content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs415...
|
| 54% of the COVID cohort has BMI > 30, vs 42% of the
| contemporary controls, and 40% of the historical
| controls. They also have a higher percentage in long-term
| care (4% vs. 0.6%), a higher percentage with cancer (8%
| vs. 6%), chronic kidney disease (19.5% vs 16.7%), lung
| disease (15% vs. 11%), _dementia_ (6% vs. 3%), _diabetes_
| (32% vs 22%) and hyperlipidemia (34% vs 25%).
|
| The Covid cohort is basically a much sicker population,
| in almost every way. Re-weighting the populations doesn't
| correct for this disparity.
|
| The authors have attempted to hide this by burying the
| data in the supplementary material, and presenting an
| "absolute standardized difference" that makes it look
| smaller than it is.
| [deleted]
| EMM_386 wrote:
| I have been noticeably short of breath since getting a pretty bad
| case of Covid (hospitalized), and that was months ago.
|
| Even things like climbing stairs has become a chore. One top of
| that, I was experiencing syncope on standing which they sent me
| to a cardiologist for. I couldn't complete the treadmill test to
| anyone's satisfaction so now we have to explore this further.
|
| None of this existed prior to getting Covid, and it's far past
| the point of "it's all in my head". With the fainting on
| standing, I would literally drop to my knees as the world faded
| to black. I've never experienced anything like that in my life.
|
| The shortness of breath is just another one to add to a list of
| problems now.
|
| Note I was double-vaxxed when I caught Covid. I'll have to assume
| Omnicron although I have no actual data on that. It was a
| breakthrough case and I had a 104 fever, cough, and shortness of
| breath (that's why they admitted me). It's been downhill since
| then.
| hughrr wrote:
| Interesting. I didn't get hospitalized but I had what appeared
| to have been covid in April 2020. Before that I was running 10k
| quite happily but couldn't manage round the park for 2 months
| afterwards even though I just had a temperature and fatigue for
| a couple of weeks as symptoms. It took me 9 months to get over
| it completely.
| EMM_386 wrote:
| > It took me 9 months to get over it completely.
|
| How did you do it? Just slowly rebuild lung capacity?
|
| I need to do this ASAP now as if I speak for too long, I have
| to catch my breath. That is "no bueno".
| hughrr wrote:
| Mostly walking to start with and practicing breathing
| deeply and properly when doing it. This got faster and
| longer and I slowly pushed it daily. Then I started going
| hiking again after about 5 months. Then started running
| again after that. I have an Apple Watch which does a
| reasonable _approximation_ of cardio fitness under VO2 so I
| could monitor progress.
|
| I'm no exercise expert but what appears to be important is
| keeping your heart rate above 120bpm for long periods of
| time.
|
| 2 years down the line I can do 40k walk / hilly hike
| without even being bothered. But I still have trouble doing
| a 10k run. 5k is doable.
| xxpor wrote:
| I really hope they figure out what's going on :\
|
| Do you happen to know if your resting blood pressure has
| changed?
| TylerE wrote:
| Lungs are no joke.
|
| I had a bad case of pneumonia that put me in the hospital for a
| couple days a few years back (early 30s at the time) - and it
| was year plus before my lungs were back to "normal"... I'm
| asthmatic so even my normal isn't that great. Was having to do
| nebulizer treatments basically every day for months.
| noipv4 wrote:
| After a bout of Covid and Moderna vaccines, I am now on a beta
| blocker, a Ca channel blocker and an ACE inhibitor along with a
| diuretic. I had never seen such high BP 180/140 in my arms. The
| virus and the S1 protein messed with my heart.
| likeabbas wrote:
| That sucks man :/ my anecdotal experience after having the
| original Covid strain and 3 full Moderna shots is that my heart
| is fine. BP is back to 105/60, resting heart rate is 50. I had
| long Covid for 8 months that fucked with my ability to workout
| and play tennis but now my stamina is fine.
| throw3838 wrote:
| I got high cholesterol, and I am in risk of hearth attack. Never
| had covid, just poor health due to prolonged lockdowns and closed
| gyms.
| ChrisClark wrote:
| It truly does suck that people can only exercise in gyms. There
| is literally no other place humans can get exercise. :(
| throw3838 wrote:
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| That would be truly impressive if less than 2 years of
| occasional closed gyms turned you from perfectly healthy to at
| risk of a heart attack. You've managed to squeeze a lifetime of
| bad choices into two years.
| throw3838 wrote:
| Bad genetics, not bad choices, it runs in family. I had gym,
| buddies and trainer to manage it.
| nhance wrote:
| Maybe you should start habits that change this? You can try to
| blame this on someone else, but it's your own choices that put
| you here.
| throw3838 wrote:
| My own choice? I followed legally mandated lockdown. But I
| ensure you I learned my lesson!
| ChrisClark wrote:
| You chose not to exercise. It's is completely on you.
| bigbillheck wrote:
| There's as of yet no legal mandate against doing pushups in
| the comfort of your own home.
| ganbatekudasai wrote:
| Lockdown made my work out more: Since I have no commute
| time anymore, I took up regular running (3x a week). Very
| significant increase in fitness.
| throw3838 wrote:
| Not everyone want to run with mask around dirty city
| block.
|
| It is really interesting to see this mental gymnastics,
| if someone is fat, gets virus and dies, it is "the
| plague". But here we have dozen people talking about
| "personal responsibility".
| threeseed wrote:
| a) Never seen a single city mandate masks for exercising
| outside. Especially since it's quite dangerous to limit
| your oxygen flow. So you should have been fine to run
| outside.
|
| b) Some of the toughest workouts I've done were inside.
| You need to stop being so close minded.
| ipaddr wrote:
| I have before they knew better. Nevermind it might still
| be in effect but too cold for groups to go out anyhow.
| throw3838 wrote:
| Mask is needed for the smog, that is why I want to run
| indoors at gym on threadmill. It also shields me from
| aggressive drivers and traffic.
|
| Masks do not restrict oxygen flow, there are several
| studies to prove it! It is perfectly safe to wear double
| mask for entire day at work or at school!
|
| I also like to do tough workouts inside, at gym! I do not
| have gear or space at home.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| After a decade of lifting heavy stuff, at the beginning
| of COVID I switched from powerlifting to running. I don't
| feel as powerful and definitely have lost some muscle
| mass, but I'm down 35 lbs and my resting heart rate sits
| in the 40's now. Fitness is absolutely what you make of
| it.
| SteveNuts wrote:
| There's no feasible way to get exercise at home?
| asiachick wrote:
| I've been doing P90x or P90X3. It's entirely exercise at home.
| P90X3 (30mins per) is easier than P90X (60-90min per)
| _Microft wrote:
| Have you considered bodyweight exercises? They often require
| not more than a yoga mat to get started.
| twomoonsbysurf wrote:
| nawgz wrote:
| With the supposed cardiovascular and brain dangers of COVID, I
| have still been working pretty hard to avoid infection, which is
| definitely getting to be old news. My apartment isn't that nice.
|
| Glad to see some science putting numbers on what the odds we're
| all against in terms of long-term damage.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| Same, my wife and I have been more or less holed up the past
| month or so, waiting for our area's death rates and
| hospitalizations to normalize, but honestly I'd like even the
| case count to drop more before I venture back into the world.
|
| Yes, I could get COVID and yes, I'd probably be fine, but the
| more information coming out around lingering effects give me
| serious pause about the "everyone will get it eventually"
| route.
|
| I'd rather never get it, if that's possible, and honestly if
| the numbers continue to drop as they have been, I'm a few weeks
| away from that being actually possible in my area again.
| avalys wrote:
| Would love to see these results broken down by vaccine status as
| well.
| Daishiman wrote:
| Because vaccination reduces the severity of the disease in a
| known fashion, the vaccination status is going to be
| proportionate to that.
| TrevorJ wrote:
| That's not how science works.
| asveikau wrote:
| It could be exactly how science works! You start out
| proposing that, perhaps based on intuition, then you do a
| study to confirm or deny it.
| Daishiman wrote:
| So? The risk profile of vaccines has been researched to
| death as well as the effects of disease severity.
|
| Part of doing science also means having looked at enough
| papers and conclusions to know which questions merit
| further research and which questions are of little
| relevance to public health. It is extremely unlikely that
| you'll find any surprises here, and considering the open
| questions of long covid and long-term health effects on the
| population on COVID, I'd much rather the focus be on the
| more important questions.
| avalys wrote:
| We don't understand nearly enough about Covid, long
| Covid, or breakthrough cases to draw any conclusion about
| how much the vaccine mitigates the severity of long-term
| outcomes in breakthrough cases.
|
| We have enough information to form an educated guess. But
| your attitude here is exactly why public health
| authorities have damaged their credibility and that of
| science itself in the past two years. They have
| repeatedly misrepresented their educated guesses as
| scientific fact - and then turned out to be wrong.
| Daishiman wrote:
| > But your attitude here is exactly why public health
| authorities have damaged their credibility and that of
| science itself in the past two years. They have
| repeatedly misrepresented their educated guesses as
| scientific fact - and then turned out to be wrong.
|
| Where has that happened for this? Every study that has
| shown disease severity correlated with vaccine usage has
| shown the same results, over and over, for each variant:
| vaccination correlates with symptomatic disease severity
| which correlates linearly with long-term effects, in
| every observed metric.
|
| This has appeared again and again and again in dozens of
| studies, to the point where it is the null hypothesis;
| you'd need to make a real case with novel, contradictory
| evidence to show that this is not the case.
|
| In every domain of medicine there is some degree of
| guessing and basing off of historical data for a cohort;
| you can't test every patient for every possible thing
| that could ever affect them. Instead you pick and choose
| the most significant factors and use that as your
| guidelines. Research efforts for COVID are very large,
| but also limited; there is no evidence to contradict this
| and it's not worth researching.
|
| If you actually kept up with domain experts during the
| pandemic, you'll see that there were many open questions
| over which they kept interest, and many open questions
| where they did not care much. The reason for that has to
| do with the acquired knowledge of having studied hundreds
| of other diseases and similar cases; they tell you how to
| explore the domain, seeing where things are likely to be
| different, and where they are not.
| skrbjc wrote:
| They're not "breakthrough" cases since the vaccine was
| never intended to stop transmission and very clearly does
| not stop transmission. They're just cases amongst people
| who took the vaccine.
| robbiep wrote:
| It appears the study date only moves up to the start of vaccine
| release. We'll probably be waiting another 12 months to get
| that data
| michalu wrote:
| At least one study (very small) seems to show that covid alone
| doesn't cause cardiovascular abnormalities 6 months after the
| disease.
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1936878X2...
| gchokov wrote:
| dorchadas wrote:
| I had heart palpitations randomly for over 8 months after Covid.
| I still find that my extremities tend to go to sleep and start
| tingling regardless of what I do (even them hanging by my side).
| It's extremely noticeable when I wake up from sleep. Even
| sleeping on my back with hands to the sides all night wakes up
| with them completely asleep and tingling, and other parts of the
| body seem to go to sleep easier than they did pre-Covid.
|
| Thankfully, even though I likely had an early variant(Dec 2020),
| mine was not very extreme. I was constantly cold (like 45 minutes
| hot showers to get warm) and lost taste/smell, but I felt decent
| enough to run a 5k with it (probably stupidly, but at least it
| warmed me up), but the after effects have got me worried,
| especially the tingling in extremities which doesn't show any
| sign of going away.
| ddlutz wrote:
| Huh, I got sick a few weeks ago and PCR test was negative for
| covid, but I had this same thing with the tingling arms last
| night, I woke up and it was my whole body pretty much, but
| especially bad in the arms. And now I'm getting it a bit in my
| feet / ankle area awake today.
| sjg007 wrote:
| Did you get vaccinated as well? Apparently the vaccine helps
| people with long covid.
| tasty_freeze wrote:
| It helps _some_ people. But there are people for whom it
| makes things worse. I know one of them. She had covid early
| in the spring of 2020 and made very slow progress to getting
| better. The vaccine put her back six months at least. I 'm
| not saying someone should not get it, but find some
| statistics about the likelihood it will make you better vs
| worse.
| [deleted]
| legutierr wrote:
| Why is this getting downvoted? I've seen the same thing.
| People have very different experiences.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| If anyone here has an Apple Watch and knows or suspects that they
| got COVID in the past year, open the Health app on your phone and
| look up your "v02 Max" figure on the Watch. This is a machine-
| learning guesstimate of how efficiently your lungs process
| oxygen.
|
| Here's a quick look at my measurements over the past six months,
| would you like to guess when I tested positive for COVID?
| http://whiskyvangoghgo.com/images/v02max.jpeg
|
| (this was a huge letdown, back in September I had started a
| jumprope program in hopes of driving this number up, despite
| reading that v02-max is nearly hard-wired to a individual's
| physiology)
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Took me a little over 12 months to recover and feel back to
| normal. My heart still feels somewhat weird depending on the day,
| but my cardiologist told me that there's nothing to be concerned
| about and showed me proof that everything is working as expected.
|
| Difficulty breathing, heart palpitations, dizziness, muscle
| twitches, and the brain fog throughout the last year has had its
| toll on my mental health.
|
| Covid has brought upon one of the most depressive/anxious periods
| of my life. I don't know if it was because of Covid, the damage
| it caused along the way out, or if I had a huge panic/anxiety
| attack because of the symptoms.
|
| Whatever it is, I have really been working on reducing stress,
| focusing on my mental health, and many of these symptoms have
| faded away and only return when I'm a bit on edge.
|
| It has somewhat unlocked a superpower of knowing when to slow
| down at work, be in the present with my kids, and take a deep
| breath. I never had this ability before it.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| It's interesting to see less obese and younger people more
| affected. Maybe it's either because of vaccine status that
| another commenter asked for, or more deaths in those cohorts.
| dv_dt wrote:
| Aside from the study being interesting topic, I love the
| inclusion of Fig 1 the cohort construction diagram. I wish more
| papers would include that as a standard item.
| dijit wrote:
| I had an awful experience running for the first time after
| contracting COVID.. Unsure what strain I had but it was recent
| and I was careful so it's likely the "milder" omicron variant.
|
| At the Gym, 3 weeks after testing positive the first time, I ran
| for 60s at 11km/h on the treadmill and my heart rate was 180bpm
| by the end.
|
| For context, a 60s jog at that same speed prior to being
| afflicted would have resulted in a 130bpm heart rate.
|
| Normally it would take running for 45 minutes to get to 180bpm..
|
| But I got there (and felt awful) in 60s. I had to stop running.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| I don't do much running, mostly just weightlifting and a whole
| lot of walking but after I caught what I believe is the omicron
| variant relatively recently, I tried to go back to the gym and
| do a typical hard session. I felt like my heart/lungs were
| going to burst out of my chest after a heavy set that I
| normally might just be breathing mildy-heavy after.
|
| I've definitely learned to take it a little easy for a while.
| dv_dt wrote:
| Be careful returning to a full exercise schedule, esp after
| seeing effects like that. I see a running twitter group
| anecdotally observing a risk of a hard backlash of symptoms for
| runners trying to get back to their regular schedule too soon
| after even a mild covid bout.
| el_benhameen wrote:
| Neat, I just recovered last week and was planning on a trial
| run this afternoon. Do you happen to have any links to the
| discussion in the twitter group?
| femto wrote:
| Not twitter, but the same topic:
|
| https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-18/returning-to-
| exercise...
| SommaRaikkonen wrote:
| colonelxc wrote:
| This study is about people who got Covid and now have issues,
| not issues with vaccines.
| FeteCommuniste wrote:
| The article isn't about the risks of vaccination but of covid
| infection. The only mention of vaccines is in a section where
| it discusses controlling for vaccination status and concludes
| that the risk of myocarditis from infection is present even in
| the unvaccinated.
| pstuart wrote:
| One thing I've wondered about with issues from vaccine side
| effects is if they are in any way related to how the body would
| respond if the actual disease was contracted.
|
| This is not to discount the effects or concerns about it --
| just curiosity.
| shmel wrote:
| Yeah, I wish we had some research about this. Somehow
| everybody on internet believes that covid will be always,
| literally always worse than vaccine side effects.
| Daishiman wrote:
| It is objectively pretty much always the case, this has
| been studied to death. /r/covid19 has dozens of studies
| from all over the world quantifying the risks of heart
| disease for all vaccines, all age cohorts, and vaccination
| statuses.
| sojournerc wrote:
| My understanding is that the likelihood of adverse vaccine
| side-effects is greater after a previous COVID infection than
| in a "naive" immune system.
|
| This study shows >2x risk for previously infected healthcare
| workers.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8313055/
| _s wrote:
| Adverse sounds serious, but really:
|
| About 105 vaccine recipients reported at least one AEFI
| symptoms following COVID-19 vaccination (incidence
| proportion 6.4%, 95% CI: 5.3%, 7.7%). All AEFI reported
| were minor which were managed by tablet paracetamol and
| subsided after 1-2 days. Fever (65, 3.98%) was the most
| commonly reported AEFI followed by myalgia (54, 3.30%)
| (Fig. 1). About 48 (2.94%) study participants reported 2 or
| more AEFI, most common being fever with myalgia (19, 1.16%)
| and fever with headache (18, 1.10%). No severe or serious
| AEFI was reported among vaccine recipients.
| saurik wrote:
| I think adverse just means "not good" as one could also
| see neutral or even positive effects; one would say
| severe or serious (as in the text you quoted) as strength
| modifiers if applicable, but the word "adverse" shouldn't
| inherently make something sound strong or ever feel
| synonymous with "serious".
| mateo1 wrote:
| It makes sense as the secondary immune reaction (ie after a
| second infection or vaccination) is generally much larger
| than the first.
| usrusr wrote:
| Knowing that this is clearly off topic here, one thing that
| crossed my mind wrt myocarditis amongst the vaccinated is
| this: amongst athletes, myocarditis is clearly linked to
| exercising (or even competing) while dealing with an
| infection (not limited to Covid19 at all, other than that
| this one seems to be particularly nasty). The risk of
| inflammation rises when when athletic stress and infection
| stress (or immune reaction stress, apparently) coincide. This
| is common knowledge amongst athletes, most would have taken a
| break from training even if no doctor ever mentioned it.
|
| But we do seem to see an uptick not only amongst the infected
| but also amongst the vaccinated (note: I do believe that
| infection is much worse, but vaccinated to infected are
| roughly 80:20, so it tends to _look_ kind of even). What if
| the risk of myocarditis was not so much caused by coincidence
| of training intensity and immune stress but also by
| coincidence of immune stress and whatever happens during
| training _recovery_ (when the body does the actual work of
| adaption, you don 't get better during training, you get
| better afterwards)? When you tell an athlete that they get
| their shot on Wednesday and they should better take some rest
| days afterwards, it's as predictable as Wham in December that
| they will throw in some serious training load on Tuesday.
| Chances are they'll train extra hard so that they need those
| rest days anyways. (for me it was Sunday/Monday)
|
| Now the thing I find particularly interesting about this
| speculation: if this mechanism _was_ real, myocarditis risk
| not from high training load coinciding with immune stress but
| /also from immune stress coinciding with post-load recovery,
| it would be highly unlikely that we'd know about it. Because
| with naturally occurring immune stress, we don't ever have a
| clearly defined point in time when it started, and we
| certainly wouldn't ever deliberately schedule it so that we
| could arrange for training load to happen right before.
| bool3max wrote:
| _Microft wrote:
| No amount of open-mindedness will change that the paper is
| just not about vaccines but sequelae of a Covid infection.
| bool3max wrote:
| "Sequelae" of a certain virus and "sequelae" of a vaccine
| related to that same virus being discussed in the paper
| seem pretty tightly related to me.
| drekipus wrote:
| Why would they be tightly related? Because they both have
| COVID in the name? What else makes them tightly related?
| bool3max wrote:
| They both contribute to partial immunity of the virus in
| question and thus it would seem very useful to compare
| side effects of the two.
| ls15 wrote:
| Seems reasonable to me:
|
| https://www.science.org/content/article/rare-cases-
| coronavir...
| FeteCommuniste wrote:
| The comment misrepresents the content of the article in a way
| that's trivial to see if you simply read a few paragraphs of
| it (it's about the effects of infection, not vaccines). The
| flagging is merited.
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