[HN Gopher] U.S. university reverses decision to remove Olympic ...
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U.S. university reverses decision to remove Olympic protest posters
Author : ilamont
Score : 112 points
Date : 2022-02-07 19:10 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.axios.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.axios.com)
| duxup wrote:
| There's a weird intersection of nationalism and personality where
| folks behave as if they're almost one and the same. Any criticism
| toward a nation's actions is a personal attack by default it
| seems.
|
| I've got strong feelings about China's leadership, it has almost
| nothing to do with the locals.
| chrischen wrote:
| If the locals associate with China's leadership and you are
| against China's leadership, then you are effectively against
| the locals...
| duxup wrote:
| > associate with China's leadership
|
| What does that mean?
| Wiseacre wrote:
| Actually deciding to become a member of the Chinese
| communist party versus just being a Chinese citizen?
| platinumrad wrote:
| "It has almost nothing to do with the locals" so why was there
| a poster depicting an ordinary athlete throwing a virus at the
| viewer? Tell me what this accomplishes aside from associating
| the pandemic (which is widely hated for obvious reasons) with a
| random chinese person?
|
| Funny how the downvotes keep on coming in but nobody is
| shameless enough to defend it.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Using the image of a person in a cartoon to represent a state
| actor (especially when adorned with symbols strongly
| associated with that state such as a Pickelhaube for Prussia,
| or in this case simply a national flag) is one of the oldest
| forms of political commentary. You can see it in the
| political cartoons of most major newspapers.
| bllguo wrote:
| I read this as "western political cartoons have a proud
| tradition of racist imagery," which is not a very
| convincing rebuttal
| platinumrad wrote:
| 1. There is a huge difference between an athlete, who is an
| ordinary citizen, and a soldier, who deploys violence on
| behalf of the state.
|
| 2. This isn't going to be popular, but a lot of anti-
| Prussian propaganda was racist. (And if you're about to say
| "ackshully, Prussian isn't a race" please consider that the
| colloquial usage of "racism" encompasses a number of other
| prejudices and those prejudices aren't suddenly excusable
| because they aren't technically based on your definition of
| "race.")
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| Exactly, but America's probably not a great market to sell this
| sort of distinction.
| asow92 wrote:
| We still get called racist when we try to bring up this
| distinction.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| Really?
|
| I don't think I've met a single american who seems happy with
| their government, no matter which way they lean or which
| colour tie the president has. But I've still met a lot of
| proud Americans.
|
| Which nation do you think this sort of distinction might be
| better sold in?
| actuator wrote:
| I think they meant a US citizen wouldn't necessarily equate
| criticism of USA's actions to criticism of US citizens.
| Like their actions in Iraq or Vietnam. This might not be
| true for majority of population of some nations.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| OK perhaps I misread.
| asow92 wrote:
| Glad that they reversed this. The Chinese people are not the
| Chinese government and all governments should be open to scrutiny
| in a free society.
| netsharc wrote:
| Can't blame the CCP for trying, the same argument of racism has
| worked really well against any criticism of the Israeli
| state...
|
| (I say with a heavy dose of cynicism)
| riedel wrote:
| I think both are truly believing that criticism is racially
| motivated. Unfortunately, history actually tells us in both
| cases they kind of have a point. I think we have to accept
| the fundamental critism of our criticism until we have
| actually proven we aren't racist.
| asow92 wrote:
| So we might be racist for calling out genocide and ethnic
| cleansing?
| platinumrad wrote:
| Yes, I think it's pretty racist to depict a random
| chinese athlete throwing a virus at the viewer.
| asow92 wrote:
| That's not what I asked.
| platinumrad wrote:
| The manner in which you call something out matters. If I
| make a poster calling out terrorism and depict an arab
| athlete throwing a bomb at the viewer then I think it
| would be pretty counterproductive and, yes, racist.
| asow92 wrote:
| Hey, the virus did originate in Wuhan China and was
| covered up initially by the CCP. That's just a fact.
| Nothing racist about it.
|
| Also, we didn't make these posters, but that shouldn't
| detract from the actual genocide that's occurring today.
| platinumrad wrote:
| Hey, the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and were given
| a long leash by the Saudi government. That's just a fact.
| Nothing racist about it.
|
| Also, _I_ didn 't make the racist poster so I think it's
| totally appropriate to leave it up. (Not sure where you
| were going with this part...)
| asow92 wrote:
| I don't even understand what your point is anymore. This
| poster is calling out the CCP and its policies; not
| people of the Chinese race. If you can't see that then
| I'm not sure what to tell you.
|
| There is nothing racist about what you said in what you
| somehow think is a counter point. The CCP are engaged in
| human rights abuses and some of us think that we have a
| moral obligation to call that out. What is your game
| here?
| riedel wrote:
| One can be called racist and still be right. I don't say
| we should stop calling out those things. But we maybe
| cannot demand that other people still call us racists
| over it. If criticism will have postive effects this way
| is a whole different story.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| I don't give a flying fuck about sports so I don't care either
| way. But did you know the alternative site for the Winter
| Olympics was Kazakhstan? Yeah they dodged a bullet there-
| literally.
|
| Nobody in "polite countries" wants these events anymore. Norway
| or Switzerland don't need more tourists and white elephants.
| Organising the Olympics hasn't been worth it for a long time.
| dqpb wrote:
| > I don't give a flying fuck about sports
|
| This has nothing to do with sports.
| ramesh31 wrote:
| >Organising the Olympics hasn't been worth it for a long time.
|
| The games are great but the process is not. They need to moved
| to a fixed site for both winter and summer. Then countries can
| just take turns each year setting the theme, ceremonies,
| decorations, etc. and handling the logistics of it.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Just locate them in Greece permanently. At least the summer
| ones. It is the birthplace of the very idea and the Greek
| economy could profit from the visitors.
|
| It would be cool to have Mt. Olympus literally on the horizon
| when competing.
| chrischen wrote:
| Why would countries bid to help boost the economy of
| Greece?
| snovv_crash wrote:
| Greece could claim copyright, in the same way that France
| claims exclusivity on Champagne.
| chrismcb wrote:
| Paris 2024 Milan 2026 LA 2028 Vancouver bidding for 2030...
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Aren't the olympics going to be in Paris in 2024? I agree in
| general that olympic events are often colossal boondoggles and
| pure vanity projects wasting money that could go to citizens
| but I'm not sure it's fair to characterize the olympics as
| having no cache anymore (that said, viewership seems like it's
| abysmal this year and in general in decline over years). Also,
| never heard the categorization of "polite countries" before...
| not really sure how to feel about that one; I haven't spent
| much times in the Stans but have spent a lot of time in former
| soviet bloc countries and many of the people there are much
| more "polite" than W. EU/US.
| dylan604 wrote:
| >pure vanity projects wasting money that could go to citizens
|
| would it though? seems like a different vanity project would
| be found instead rather than what you would wish it be used.
| if the people financially supporting these types of
| boondoggles wanted to be doing citizens work, they would be
| doing it already and not be no Olympics to support. also to
| not be overlooked, some of these might be doing both already.
|
| Edit: Whooboy, the grammar in this one ;-)
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Ha, indeed could vs. would is a great point and you are
| probably correct that if a country is already willing not
| to spend the money on citizens directly for non-vanity
| projects, it's quite possible that even without the
| olympics they would do the same with something else but
| also without the olympics they don't get to use that veneer
| of shiny international credibility and attention to get
| internal stakeholder buy-in for the project which feels
| like it probably makes some difference although how much
| probably depends on the society in question.
| favorited wrote:
| > Nobody in "polite countries" wants these events anymore.
|
| When the USOC and IOC selected Boston as the host of the 2024
| Olympics, enough citizens of Boston opposed the selection that
| they moved the games to Los Angeles.
| areyousure wrote:
| In case anyone is curious:
|
| The 2024 Olympics will be held in Paris. The 2028 Olympics
| will be held in Los Angeles. The USOC originally selected
| Boston for its bid (for the 2028 Olympics) in 2015. The
| selection was changed half a year later, _two years before_
| the IOC selected the host.
| ipsum2 wrote:
| > Organising the Olympics hasn't been worth it for a long time
|
| Isn't that the entire point to show off a country's wealth:
| look how much money we can afford to waste, because we're so
| well-off? That would explain why China has hosted Olympics
| twice in the last few years.
| MomoXenosaga wrote:
| The question isn't "do I have money to waste on this" (every
| Western country can find 30-50 billion if the need arises)
| the question is "is this a wise investment".
|
| That's what killed the Olympics for Amsterdam. If you can't
| prove something is going to make money Dutch people aren't
| going to do it. Investment implies a return or at least break
| even.
| labster wrote:
| That is a very Dutch point of view, and because of these
| values I'd guess the Netherlands will never host the
| Olympics.
|
| On the parent's point, it's not about a nation showing off
| wealth, it's about showing off _might_. Wealth is one form
| of might, but so is spreading your culture, showing your
| ability to build colossal stadiums and public works, and of
| course the superiority of your disciplined physiques
| (imagine our athletes as soldiers!). Nation states exist
| largely in interstate anarchy, and displaying a nation's
| might through the Olympics can increase its power and
| prestige in other international disputes.
| csense wrote:
| We need to recognize the price that will be paid by students and
| administrators of this university who have family members in
| China.
|
| The Chinese government's standard _modus operandi_ in cases like
| this is to make them an offer they can 't refuse: Commit suicide,
| come to China to be jailed, or your family members will suffer in
| your place [1].
|
| China is an evil empire and standing up to them is important.
| Bravo for this university for making the right decision.
|
| I just hope the US media is willing to call China out, and US
| politicians are willing to inflict painful consequences on China,
| when those students' and administrators' families "disappear." Or
| better yet, US intelligence manages to successfully bug one of
| those family members before they get "disappeared", and get clear
| video evidence of exactly what happens during such
| "disappearances." (My personal guess is that it's a sick,
| sadistic slow murder with lots of screaming and blood, followed
| by secret burial in an unmarked shallow grave.)
|
| [1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/07/china-
| christ...
| xg15 wrote:
| I mean, I can understand most of the posters, but why the
| coronavirus one?
| rthomas6 wrote:
| Lab leak hypothesis?
| xg15 wrote:
| Wasn't that pretty much disproven? Or at least dismissed as
| extremely unlikely by the majority of scientists.
| rthomas6 wrote:
| The latter is true, yes. But it could explain the poster.
| xg15 wrote:
| Ah, that makes sense indeed.
| bigcat123 wrote:
| guelo wrote:
| Funny how "inciting ethnic hatred" is the same reason given by
| repressive American governments for banning discussions of racial
| issues in schools.
| cdot2 wrote:
| no one is banning discussions of racial issues
| justin66 wrote:
| This is literally a conflict that is happening in today's
| news.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| I think american governments over stretches it.
|
| but yeah I do think it's ironic and sad that the ultra
| conservative school boards and q people who push that junk
| simultaneously hate CCP for doing the same thing.
|
| Though the aforementioned school board idiots probably don't
| even understand (or if they do, gross) that they are in fact
| perpetrating the same 'racism' they are standing up against.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| Critical race theory != discussion of racial issues
|
| Noone banned discussing race, they banned a political marxist
| agenda.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| Critical race theory != a political marxist agenda and I'm
| baffled that people think so. Banning it is just so much
| "don't talk about what we or our ancestors ever did wrong"
| babble.
| dqpb wrote:
| There is a very small number of people who actually know
| what critical race theory is.
| dshpala wrote:
| And of course "ancestors" conveniently go only couple of
| hundred years back?
| bllguo wrote:
| not sure what this is insinuating, but the US is only a
| couple of hundred years old, so what exactly is so
| unbelievable here
| hunterb123 wrote:
| Yes, it is repackaged Marxism, replacing class with race.
|
| This article goes into the history of it:
| https://www.newsweek.com/critical-race-theory-repackaged-
| mar...
| justin66 wrote:
| That's an opinion piece by an egregiously stupid right-
| wing commentator.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| Feel free to point out something they said that you want
| to dispute.
|
| What did they say that was inaccurate about the origin of
| it?
|
| Simply insulting the person is not a debate.
| dahdum wrote:
| One of these posters depicts a Chinese athlete curling a virus
| towards the viewer.
|
| How is that not a racist dog whistle?
| Freak_NL wrote:
| The anonymous athlete adorned with the Chinese flag represents
| the Chinese state; this is a common visual cue in political
| cartoons.
|
| The artist could have used a less subtle design choice like a
| panda in a tracksuit (similar to how the US can be represented
| by Uncle Sam), but it would make the posters comical and it
| would detract from the chosen art style and references to the
| historic style of poster design these hint at as well as the
| message behind the posters.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| Can you tell me about your personal morality here?
|
| I.E, are you against all caricatures whereby a 'segment of the
| population' non-existent person was used, in which case you'd
| be equally appalled at say a caricature of a trump supporter?
| But you'd be OK of it was Xi Jinping throwing the virus?
| dahdum wrote:
| I'm appalled because it depicts the Chinese deliberately
| hurling the virus towards us. Considering the context of the
| other posters, widespread Covid conspiracy theories, and
| asian hate crimes skyrocketing, do you see a more benign
| message in that poster?
| platinumrad wrote:
| > I.E, are you against all cricatures whereby a 'segment of
| the population' non-existent person was used, in which case
| you'd be equally appalled at say a caricature of a trump
| supporter?
|
| Yes, I think it would be bigoted to depict a random rural
| American putting a Mexican child into a cage. Is that what
| you meant by "trump supporter"? Because athletes are also
| just ordinary citizens unlike, for example, a border patrol
| agent which is a representative of the state.
|
| > But you'd be OK of it was Xi Jinping throwing the virus?
|
| Yes, of course people in positions of great power are fair
| game. Though I think it's a bit of a boring criticism
| compared to something he's more directly responsible for.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| Thanks, your objections make sense to me now, and seem
| pretty consistent.
|
| I'd argue Xi is pretty responsible for the Covid outbreak,
| given the initial cover up (mirroring the SARS cover up -
| ie it's long-running state policy).
| platinumrad wrote:
| I think that's a reasonable position, with Xi serving as
| a stand-in for the selfish nature of the CCP bureaucracy
| as a whole. I'm not a fan of the guy at all, but I don't
| think he was responsible for local attempts to try to
| hide the outbreak from, well, more-or-less him. If there
| is anything suggesting that a coverup was also ordered on
| the national level, with the intent to harm other
| countries (or, more likely, without regard for the well-
| being of other countries), then that would be really
| interesting to me.
| LAC-Tech wrote:
| Yeah fair distinction, the CCP is a pretty huge
| organisation and Xi is just one person. Though ultimately
| as the leader he's the fairest target.
| dqpb wrote:
| China is a country, not a race.
| platinumrad wrote:
| And athletes are ordinary citizens and not representatives of
| the state.
| dqpb wrote:
| Aside from the fact that they are literally wearing their
| country's flag, I tend to agree with you.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| While etymologically derived from "race", the word "racist"
| doesn't observe the artificial (and, actually, grounded in
| race essentialism which is itself a racist ideology)
| artificial distinction between target groups being labelled
| as a "race" vs a "nationality" or "ethnicity", and applies
| equally when the basis of bigotry labelled is on any of those
| grounds.
| platinumrad wrote:
| Absolutely absurd for this to be buried.
| yupper32 wrote:
| We need to figure out how to educate people enough for them to be
| able to separate the government from the people.
|
| I don't know how, but it's a common theme in the US (and probably
| elsewhere but I don't have as much context outside the US). From
| Japanese internment, to 9/11, to COVID, to China and their [
| _gestures vaguely_ ], we can't see to get it right.
| crusher_joe wrote:
| yumraj wrote:
| > We need to figure out how to educate people enough for them
| to be able to separate the government from the people.
|
| One, and perhaps most effective, way would be for the Chinese
| student groups to support these protests to show that they are
| indeed distinct from the CCP government, instead of using _the
| language of social justice to silence criticism of the Chinese
| government 's human rights record_
| alistairSH wrote:
| But are these student groups distinct from the CCP? Reading
| this and several other recent posts about Chinese student
| groups, it appears some/many of them are very much pro-CCP.
| Whether that's because those students are 100% indoctrinated
| or simply scared of retaliation against family black home, I
| do not know.
| DiogenesKynikos wrote:
| > Whether that's because those students are 100%
| indoctrinated or simply scared of retaliation against
| family black home, I do not know.
|
| Most people in China have a fairly positive view of their
| country, which is not surprising, given how massively life
| has improved over the course of just one generation.
|
| A lot of students go abroad, and then are shocked at the
| sheer amount of hatred towards China and demonization of
| the country. It's not that the students are brainwashed to
| like China. It's just that they have an entirely different
| perspective.
| chrischen wrote:
| This. Most foreigners (of China) have a one-sided view of
| Chinese government, and they lack any imagination in
| empathizing with Chinese citizens. You can easily
| disenfranchise the voices of billions of actual Chinese
| constituents by saying everything is _probably_ an astro
| turfing campaign. It's not like American or foreign
| interests actually care about the well being of Chinese
| citizens. We (America and allies) didn't take a vote of
| Iraqi citizens when deciding to liberate them, and not
| only that I can probably guarantee you 0 fucks were given
| for their livelihoods when making that decision. US
| politicians and policies are actually obligated to serve
| American constituents (as doing otherwise risks losing
| re-election), so whenever foreign policy claims to be
| anti--foreign-government for the benefit of foreign
| constituents--that is all political bullshit.
|
| But look at the facts. The communist party has driven
| China to become a massive success economically and this
| is an objective fact no one is arguing against. Do you
| really think the Chinese people are aligned with Western
| first world concerns when their pockets are lined so
| thickly by the CCP over the last forty years? And if they
| are indeed aligned with their government, then being anti
| government is the same as being anti-Chinese
| constituency. Describing it in any other way is just
| manufactured-justification.
|
| I'm not validating all the actions of the Chinese
| government. In fact they are actually severely
| bureaucratic, undeveloped, of course committing many
| moral sins. But if I take a stance against China I'm not
| deluding myself into believing I'm somehow the savior of
| Chinese people from their own government. They know which
| side they are on and what they are supporting.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| +1 here, my understanding is that many of these student
| groups are actually just astro-turfing orgs to give a
| veneer of credibility while being used by the CCP to spread
| their message, keep tabs on students while abroad, and
| spread influence.
| temp8964 wrote:
| Not just that. Chinese student associations work for the
| communist party. They directly work under the Chinese
| embassy. They are like foreign branches of the Chinese
| government.
|
| https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/07/chinas-long-arm-
| reaches...
|
| "But Southwest CSSA's ties to the consulate are far closer
| than those of the individual groups at universities. Its
| bylaws state that all presidential candidates must first
| receive approval from the Chinese Consulate in Los Angeles
| before the election can take place. Southwest CSSA
| sometimes holds events inside the consulate itself."
| platinumrad wrote:
| Yeah just like how it was the responsibility of muslims to
| prove that they're weren't one of the bad ones after 9/11
| right?
| yumraj wrote:
| I'm not aware of any Muslim student groups in the US that
| were _using the language of social justice_ to silence
| criticism of the Taliban or Al-Qaida.
| platinumrad wrote:
| I'm not talking about silencing criticism. I'm talking
| about this part: "One, and perhaps most effective, way
| would be for the Chinese student groups to support these
| protests to show that they are indeed distinct from the
| CCP government"
|
| I don't think they should be compelled to support
| protests, especially not ones deploying racist imagery,
| simply due to their nationality.
| yumraj wrote:
| What racist imagery was employed in those Olympic protest
| posters? They were depicting factual imagery and were in
| fact created by an Chinese Australian artist.
| platinumrad wrote:
| Factual imagery like a random athlete throwing a virus at
| the viewer.
|
| > and were in fact created by an Chinese Australian
| artist.
|
| This is gonna blow your mind, but I have seen an absurd
| amount of racism from the Chinese diaspora. Things like
| Taiwanese people calling Andrew Yang (who is himself
| descended from people from Taiwan) a CCP agent for having
| a completely milquetoast position on Taiwan for an
| American politican.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| > This is gonna blow your mind, but I have seen an absurd
| amount of racism from the Chinese diaspora. Things like
| Taiwanese people calling Andrew Yang (who is himself
| descended from people from Taiwan) a CCP agent for having
| a completely milquetoast position on Taiwan for an
| American politican.
|
| How is calling Andrew Yang a CCP agent racist? What does
| it have to due with race at all?
| platinumrad wrote:
| The same accusation was not being levied against other
| contenders in the Democratic Party primary, despite all
| candidates having more or less the same position of
| official ambiguity (and Taiwan not being a major issue at
| all in the campaign.) Yang was being held to a different
| standard due to his race.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| Well Yang is being held to a different standard due to
| his _Taiwanese_ background, so unless you're saying
| Taiwanese is a race, I see this less as some general
| racism and more as people feeling (rightly or wrongly)
| that he is betraying his Taiwanese roots. This sounds
| much more like nationalism than anything else.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Is it really true right now though? I know tons of people who
| feel very strongly about the actions of the CCP (I was just
| talking to an author who wrote a book about the Uyghur
| Genocide!) but almost universally they are angry at the
| political/ruling classes. I don't think most people believe
| that Chinese person = true believer. In my mind where it gets
| tricky is in forced tech transfer and the like where the CCP
| puts pressure on foreign workers and students to engage in
| illegal or unethical actions because they have leverage on them
| which is a classic cold war move but imo that shouldn't reflect
| on the individuals being pressured but the system that does so.
| yupper32 wrote:
| The Uyghur Genocide is probably not feeling this phenomenon
| too much, though I brought it up because that was one of the
| original reasons for the take down in the article. I imagine
| if you even know about the Uyghur Genocide you're probably
| more informed than most and can separate the CCP from your
| everyday citizen. But if the concerns are real and this turns
| violent against Chinese students, then my comment stands
| relevant.
|
| The Covid + China example is very real, though.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Ah interesting, I guess I don't know many people who care
| about China issues but aren't informed enough to know about
| what's happening with the Uyghurs, tech transfer, Confucius
| Institutes, etc. To me it's still really odd just on the
| face of it to take Covid and blame the average Chinese
| person who have basically been locked in their homes at the
| will of Xi (whether this is the right or wrong covid
| mitigation strategy isn't my point here, rather that they
| had no political recourse to change it as an individual)
| and have nothing to do with deciding the research in labs,
| national policy even via elections, or now whether they can
| literally travel anywhere and potentially expose other
| people. But I can see how that would be an easy meme to
| spread especially with the lab leak theory gaining more
| credence (although maybe that is for the best and it
| becomes less focused on a culture that has wet markets and
| all those photos which I actually do think caused some
| anti-Chinese sentiment because they are somewhat shocking
| if you're used to buying your meat in a grocery store).
| yupper32 wrote:
| I've seen the racism related to Covid + China first hand,
| and hate anti-asian crimes locally for me are up a ton:
| https://www.usnews.com/news/best-
| states/california/articles/...
|
| Granted, a shocking half of the 2021 victims were
| apparently from one man. No idea how that happens.
| Regardless, still up a bunch.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| I had seen some headline that many of the SF victims were
| from one person but wow, 1/2! That is just terrifying.
| But yes, the rate increase is definitely worrying, I hope
| it falls back down soon given there seems to be much less
| rhetoric from this admin blaming China directly (or at
| least not in such crass terms).
| DiogenesKynikos wrote:
| You would be surprised by how much the average person in
| China knows about the US government's accusations regarding
| China and the Uyghurs. I would venture that most people in
| China know considerably more about the situation than most
| Americans. It begins even with just basic knowledge like:
|
| * Where is Xinjiang?
|
| * Can you name any famous Uyghur people?
|
| * Have you been to Xinjiang?
|
| * What is the origin of the conflict in Xinjiang?
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| I'm glad that the decision was reversed. Sometimes speech is
| hurtful to groups, hard to hear, and even disputed but still
| important to share. I have strong feelings about the stifling of
| free speech by the CCP at home and abroad but I will stop at
| saying again that I am very glad the decision was changed and
| hope that this marks a turning point in the kowtowing of
| companies, universities, etc. to CCP demands on speech.
| DiogenesKynikos wrote:
| The cartoons were originally removed because they depict
| Chinese athletes graphically murdering people.
|
| Many people, myself included, view them as offensive, crass
| propaganda that will just further irrational hate against
| Chinese people.
|
| Since Trump was elected, the US has descended into what I can
| only describe as hysteria about China, which I think will be
| viewed in the same way as the McCarthy era is viewed today. The
| hysteria is fundamentally driven by deep insecurity about the
| US losing its geopolitical preeminence, which it has enjoyed
| since the end of WWII, and it is aided by a jingoistic media
| that uncritically propagates nationalistic narratives.
|
| The hysteria is not driven by anything China itself has
| specifically done. China hasn't launched any wars in decades,
| and has essentially just been focusing on its own economic
| development. Inside China, the view that the American public
| has of China is incomprehensible: living standards have been
| getting steadily better, and most people are optimistic about
| the future. But just the fact that China is growing is viewed
| as a strategic threat in the US, and since Trump, Bannon et al.
| came in and initiated a confrontational policy towards China,
| US public opinion has taken a dramatic turn.
|
| So I don't view this as an episode of the university
| "kowtowing" to "CCP" demands. It's just another example of
| grotesque propaganda, which caused a reaction on campus. The
| university initially decided to take the propaganda down, but
| now has been cowed by an opposite anti-Chinese reaction in the
| media and on social media, so the propaganda will stay up.
| Anyone who thinks the "CCP" controls dialogue in the US hasn't
| been paying attention over the last 5 years - the anti-Chinese
| messaging has been intense.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| > The hysteria is not driven by anything China itself has
| specifically done.
|
| That doesn't seem to be true. Whatever _you_ think about the
| truth of China 's treatment of Uighurs or Tibet, clearly
| people have strong opinions about what china itself has
| specifically done. And the government's behavior to its own
| ostensibly unoppressed citizens seems to me to border on
| dystopia; that again concerns things that China has or has
| not done. It feels like a bit of facile stubbornness to claim
| that no criticism of China is legitimate.
| xg15 wrote:
| Many of those issues (e.g. Tibet) have been known for
| decades though. And yet up until the last few years,
| western governments had no problems at all doing business
| with China despite them. Only in the last few years did
| those issues suddenly become dealbreakers. That's a bit
| odd, at least.
| actuator wrote:
| It is not odd. There is definitely an economic reason and
| global power aspirations side to it.
|
| These are the same western countries otherwise which
| overlooked a genocide in East Pakistan which is now
| Bangladesh just because they needed a state for their
| guerilla warfare against Soviets. When India went to stop
| the genocide and fight for liberation of Bangladesh, it
| was threatened with US naval might.
|
| Morality is not why they are doing it but that doesn't
| mean the moral side should not be supported.
|
| The other reason being that CCP now has the economic
| muscle to influence narrative which was reserved to just
| West till now.
| jahewson wrote:
| They're not dealbreakers though, are they? That's why
| these students are protesting - it's their own government
| they want to act.
|
| There were students complaining about Tibet when I was a
| child, 30 years ago. Given the rise of the social justice
| movement in the US and events in HK I don't see anything
| odd about a resurgence of such concerns from the youth of
| America. It's not like these students previously thought
| it wasn't a problem - they weren't even born.
| xg15 wrote:
| Yes, the (progressive) youth was always protesting -
| what's odd is that suddenly the government is taking
| those protests at top priority when for the longest time,
| they were mostly ignored.
|
| While the issues are real, the timing seems very
| convenient.
| riedel wrote:
| Let me state as a non-US citizen, which also watches some
| developments in the US with bewilderment, that other parts of
| the world also see the recent developments in China massively
| critical. This is no hysteria but a bad awakening after years
| of hope that the Chinese government shares at least some of
| our most fundamental values. Yes China is only focusing on
| itself (or what it has defined as itself), but this is
| actually the worrying part.
| DiogenesKynikos wrote:
| I follow non-English media as well, and I have seen the
| same sort of crude propaganda becoming increasingly
| prevalent in the media of US-allied states. Many of the
| cultural and political trends that begin in the US have a
| way of spreading. This is particularly true of the China
| narrative, because the US has pushed for its allies to go
| along with a confrontational policy towards China.
|
| > a bad awakening
|
| I have not seen people becoming more informed about China.
| Much the opposite: I have seen the rapid spread of a
| bizarre image of China that has almost nothing to do with
| the reality on the ground.
| actuator wrote:
| > have seen the rapid spread of a bizarre image of China
| that has almost nothing to do with the reality on the
| ground.
|
| Even the western propoganda will come with its own
| hyperbole.
|
| But some things are clear cut, like creating artificial
| islands and claiming rocks near other countries to claim
| maritime territory like in South China Sea. There are
| many more examples which are not helping CCP's case at
| this point.
|
| Criticism of what CCP is doing now is not criticism of
| Chinese people. Taiwan is a state which is majorly
| ethnically Han Chinese and it doesn't get the same
| criticism even though its past is also not all happy.
| friedturkey wrote:
| It'd be nice if people actually focused on the artificial
| island making or Taiwan's independence, but "activists"
| (I'm not sure if that's even the proper word in this
| instance) aren't really concerned about that and most
| people don't even know about the former.
|
| But an increasing number of people, especially Americans,
| really think the Chinese government/police really are
| just openly killing people in the streets with no
| consequence (lol), they've enslaved the entirety of
| Africa and stolen the land due to the debt of building a
| few trains, and other bizarre stuff. Any time anyone is
| like "I've been there and it's not that bad," people
| scream that you're a shill and scream "WINNIE THE POOH"
| as if that does anything. The level is discourse
| involving the country is embarrassingly low, and when it
| reaches that level, it does just two things: breeds
| absolute hatred (hate crimes involving Asians are up) and
| pushes people not buying into it the the opposite
| direction of the propaganda.
| vanusa wrote:
| Would you say that widespread reports of mistreatment
| (and worse) of the Uyghur population are "bizarre
| imagery" with "almost nothing to do with the reality on
| the ground"?
| justin66 wrote:
| > I have seen the rapid spread of a bizarre image of
| China that has almost nothing to do with the reality on
| the ground.
|
| Are you denying that China has wrongfully imprisoned
| hundreds of thousands of Uyghurs and begun to deny Hong
| Kong the autonomy it is promised under the law? Just to
| pick two of the posters' subject matter.
|
| Perhaps you meant "bizarre image" in a purely aesthetic
| sense. It does not seem like condemnation of what's
| treated in the posters is even controversial outside
| China. It's certainly not unique to the US.
| bigcat123 wrote:
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Having seen the cartoons I don't think they're anything that
| a college student doesn't seen 10 times a week on the shows
| they're watching, I doubt anyone was seriously traumatized by
| them.
|
| Well, one thing you failed to mention that the CCP has done
| that the posters do highlight is the genocide being
| perpetrated on the Uyghur people which seems quite rational
| for people across the world to be outraged by and want to put
| pressure on the government to end such practices. Indeed
| China hasn't launched any kinetic wars, how about trade wars
| (e.g. WTO ruling against China RE Rare Earths which was used
| to badger the Japanese over a border dispute), how about
| intense economic pressure like what is happening with
| Lithuania right now, how about rampant forced technology
| transfer across the world.
|
| Let's try to have an evenhanded debate here in good faith.
| I'm happy to admit there are many things I think America has
| done and is doing wrong, no country is perfect, but it
| doesn't serve your cause to pretend that certain events have
| never happened or to gaslight people.
| platinumrad wrote:
| It's pretty absurd to suggest that trade wars are even
| remotely equivalent to kinetic wars.
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| I was more responding to the claim that China has done
| nothing but focus internally. That said, I disagree and
| think that generally kinetic wars are over and that
| economic warfare can be quite serious too. China was able
| to lift hundreds of millions out of people out of poverty
| because of trade, one of the greatest achievements in our
| lifetimes to improve life. By that logic, the repression
| of economic achievement should also be of significant
| consequence if it drives people elsewhere into poverty.
| platinumrad wrote:
| Kinetic wars are over? I guess that event in Afghanistan
| was a 20 year picnic then?
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| Look at what a boondoggle it was! Not to mention, how
| many people were actually paying attention for the last
| 10 years other than politicians, the poor soldiers that
| had to fight, the poor Afghanis stuck in the middle, and
| the defense companies. Look at how many people are paying
| attention now that the "excitement" of the withdrawal is
| over and how many people are sick of "forever wars."
|
| What western country has an appetite for any more kinetic
| conflicts? I think this is why Crimea was such a shock to
| people, because the seizing of territory just seemed so
| odd in this day and age. Plus, why put people's lives on
| the line in a war when you could hit their power grid
| with a cyberattack you can pin on a non-state actor since
| attribution is so hard or you can use the weight of your
| economic activity to force other countries to do what you
| want?
| DiogenesKynikos wrote:
| > the genocide being perpetrated on the Uyghur people
|
| A "genocide" in which nobody is being killed.
|
| The fact that anyone is even using the word "genocide"
| regarding Xinjiang with a straight face is a perfect
| example of how extreme the propaganda in the US has become
| in the last 5 years.
|
| It's also a perfect example of US media not doing its job
| to hold the US government accountable when it makes absurd
| claims (a la WMD in Iraq).
| atlasunshrugged wrote:
| This is just flat out disinformation.
|
| UK Tribunal calls it a genocide:
| https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59595952
|
| Forced Sterilization of Uyghur women:
| https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/21/asia/xinjiang-china-
| response-...
|
| Mass internment camps:
| https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/exposed-
| chi...
|
| Survivor Testimony:
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/uighur-
| xinjian...
|
| Multiple governments pass motions declaring it to be
| genocide or that the serious risk of genocide existed:
| https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/19/us/politics/trump-
| china-x...
|
| Do I need to go on?
| Freak_NL wrote:
| You may wish to look up the definition of genocide.
|
| Genocide is about extinguishing an ethnic, racial, or
| religious group.
|
| One way is to simply murder everyone that belongs to it.
| It is effective, but hard to do without consequences.
|
| Another, perhaps more insidious way is to prevent that
| culture from propagating, thus destroying it in the long
| run. Tools you can use are involuntary birth control,
| displacement, and indoctrination. Which is what is
| happening in Xinjiang.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/09/uyghurs-
| subjec...
| muricula wrote:
| The UN defines genocide as: (a) Killing members of the
| group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to
| members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the
| group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
| physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing
| measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e)
| Forcibly transferring children of the group to another
| group.
|
| Killing members of a group is not necessary for something
| to be genocide. I realize the legal meaning of genocide
| is different than how some people generally use the word,
| but I don't think your objection holds up to scrutiny.
|
| https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atroci
| ty-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#
| Definition...
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| The Chinese Government is actively committing genocide
| against the Uyghur people. They literally have internment
| camps, multiple governments have denounced this, there are
| photos.
| gojomo wrote:
| They're expressive metaphorical cartoons from a critic of the
| CPC regime. Everyone knows Chinese athletes themselves aren't
| committing atrocities during the games.
|
| On the other hand, an actual Chinese state official tweeted a
| photorealistic fake image of an Australian soldier slitting
| the throat of an Afghan child.
|
| https://twitter.com/zlj517/status/1333214766806888448
|
| Which is more graphic, & more likely to engender hate?
| pphysch wrote:
| How are these remotely similar? The Chinese comic is
| symbolizing the _actual war crimes_ of _actual Australian
| soldiers_ against _actual Afghan children_. For which no
| one was held accountable IIRC.
|
| Olympic athletes are not committing war crimes or violence
| as suggested by the agitprop posters.
| gojomo wrote:
| You'd have to have a childlike naivete about figurative-
| cartoon communication to believe those cartoons "suggest"
| athletes, in their sportwear, are committing atrocities
| in Olympic-event-like tableaus.
|
| Perhaps living under a censorious regime creates such
| gullibility, & obliviousness to metaphor & sarcasm?
| rthomas6 wrote:
| You know, I can't help but notice that 90+% of your comments
| are pro-CCP talking points, such as the situation with
| Uyghurs being exaggerated or false, the social credit system
| largely being a myth, Lab origin of COVID-19 agreed by all
| experts to be false, and others. I'm inclined to believe this
| comment was made in bad faith.
| friedturkey wrote:
| It's probably because saying anything positive about
| (forbidden country) gets you permanently labeled a CCP
| drone.
|
| May as well add "couldn't help but notice you say Chinese
| people are just like people anywhere else. Curious."
| jdrc wrote:
| That title has too many negatives
| vmception wrote:
| Really glad to see organizations "with a platform" use their
| platform to say "not my problem."
|
| I can respect the _attempt_ that people have made to force
| compliance where the law does not help, all of those current
| attempts can be co-opted easily. I just watched people say it was
| inclusive to remove someone from a position for a view expressed
| outside of work beforehand that has never impacted their work,
| when the opposite could equally be argued under the exact same
| idea. You can basically morph any social justice idea from
| Twitter Spaces and Instagram stories to serve your idea and I 'm
| not sure people realize that yet, or if they are intentionally
| doing it themselves.
|
| For the record, I would also like to see a world where hatred was
| not incited. People uncomfortable with an organization still have
| the choice of disassociating from the organization, no matter how
| much energy they put into enrollment or money they put into an
| investment there. Thats what freedom of speech and association
| means even in the philosophical private sector fan-rendition of
| the first amendment.
| dqpb wrote:
| > which Chinese student groups had said "incited racial hatred
| and ethnic tensions."
|
| Really? Was it the "Chinese Race" that force sterilized young
| Uyghur women? Was it the "Chinese Ethnicity" which tried to cover
| up the Covid outbreak?
|
| The irony of this line of propaganda is that they are weaponizing
| the empathy of the dwindling population of Americans who are most
| inclined to be allies of peace. That kind of clumsy manipulation
| is going to bite back hard.
|
| Unless of course the whole point is to further divide, polarize,
| and destabilize. In which case - well done.
| causi wrote:
| _" Some Chinese students in the U.S. often don't realize that
| it's possible to be both victim and oppressor at the same time,"_
|
| Oppression is like domestic abuse: being the victim of it makes
| you more likely to perpetrate it yourself, not less.
| xg15 wrote:
| Isn't this completely at odds with all the usual anti-racism
| arguments?
| [deleted]
| pphysch wrote:
| "I hate the government, not the people" means "I don't like those
| foreigners ruling themselves", i.e. a colonial mentality.
|
| People act like there's a Demon Portal in Zhongnanhai where CCP
| Officials emerge from a different plane to subjugate the Real
| Chinese People.
|
| In reality, the government of China is made of... normal Chinese
| people with leadership/bureaucracy skills. You can't "separate"
| these two.
| temp8964 wrote:
| If what you said is true, the communist party doesn't need to
| suppress free speech of the Chinese people.
| pphysch wrote:
| Call me an authoritarian, but I think it is okay to suppress
| "free speech" like "let's gather at this location on 9/11 to
| learn methods used by $VIOLENT_TERRORIST_GROUP" or "kill all
| $ETHNIC_GROUP".
|
| At least, I am not aware of a single government that allows
| such speech. Are you?
| tick_tock_tick wrote:
| The US allows both of them......
| pphysch wrote:
| In theory, yes. In practice, no.
|
| Push too far and your "free speech" gets reclassified as
| something illegal.
|
| See: Jan 6 dissidents, Julian Assange, Aaron Swartz, et
| al.
| lalaland1125 wrote:
| The January 6 people didn't get in trouble for speech.
| They disrupted the legislature during the middle of a
| vital transfer of power process.
| chrisco255 wrote:
| The former is allowed as stated (learning is not
| prohibited, so long as it's not involving active violence)
| in the U.S., the latter is not as it involves a physical
| and imminent threat.
|
| But that's not an act of speech, that's an act of violence.
|
| Anyways, sure, you will find exceptions to any rule if you
| look hard enough or strain the definition hard enough. Not
| really particularly interesting though.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| I disagree with your premise, but that's not his point.
|
| His point was if it was the people's will, you wouldn't
| need authoritarianism.
| pphysch wrote:
| If you presume that hundreds of millions of people have a
| monolithic "will" i.e. they agree on pretty much every
| policy decision:
|
| 1) you might not need government at all
|
| and
|
| 2) you are living in a fantasy world
| hunterb123 wrote:
| What percentage of people do you think are oppressed,
| censored, and forced then?
|
| The choices of the CCP are their choices by your own
| admission it can't be all the people.
|
| The people defending the CCP are either:
|
| 1) delusional
|
| 2) 50 cent shills
| Archio wrote:
| You absolutely can separate the two, and it has nothing to do
| with colonialism. The reason you can is because in a society
| where freedom of expression is curtailed, there is (and always
| will be) a difference between what an authoritarian government
| declares and the opinions of its people, even if many people
| agree with the authoritarian government. Only the people that
| agree will reasonably feel comfortable expressing their
| opinions.
|
| Where does the idea that "criticism of a government is
| criticism of its people because a government is made up of its
| people" logically follow? Is criticism of the American
| government (which I do regularly) criticism of my own American
| people? What about North Korea?
| pphysch wrote:
| > The reason you can is because in a society where freedom of
| expression is curtailed, there is (and always will be) a
| difference between what an authoritarian government declares
| and the opinions of its people, even if many people agree
| with the authoritarian government.
|
| This is very abstract. Can you give a real world example of
| what you mean? What country should China closer resemble in
| your ideal world?
| Archio wrote:
| This is the thing. I'm not claiming to have an "ideal"
| version of China, or claiming that I have an understanding
| of what all Chinese people "really want". It's a country
| with over a billion people, within which I'm sure there is
| a vast spectrum of opinions.
|
| I would agree you if you argue it would be condescending to
| claim for any given issue that while the CCP argues X,
| people in China disagree and want Y. However, I think it's
| equally as condescending to claim that the opinions,
| behaviors, and ideologies of the CCP are fully condoned and
| endorsed by all of the Chinese people (and THEREFORE,
| criticism of one is criticism of the other). Conflating a
| government and its people in this way is specious for _any
| country_ , but especially problematic for those where
| public criticism of government is unequivocally risky.
| pphysch wrote:
| > However, I think it's equally as condescending to claim
| that the opinions, behaviors, and ideologies of the CCP
| are fully condoned and endorsed by all of the Chinese
| people
|
| You can empirically test this. Harvard University did,
| and found that upwards of 90% of the Chinese people
| support their government. And why wouldn't they? QoL has
| skyrocketed for hundreds of millions of Chinese over the
| last 40 years.
| bllguo wrote:
| > Is criticism of the American government (which I do
| regularly) criticism of my own American people?
|
| of course? how does this _not_ logically follow? if you're
| going to extol the virtues of being able to select your own
| leaders you damn well ought to feel responsible for
| inflicting bad leaders on the world. you literally mentioned
| this yourself. civilians of authoritarian countries have far
| more claim to a pass than Americans.
| [deleted]
| thescriptkiddie wrote:
| It's very sad that this perfectly reasonable comment is getting
| downvoted.
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| So I'm literally unable to criticize any government with
| legitimate power besides my own, otherwise I'm engaging in
| colonialism? Am I allowed to have opinions at all, or is this
| just about expressing them? Does that extend to every country
| or just the ones you care about?
| mrtranscendence wrote:
| > You can't "separate" these two.
|
| What does that even mean? The Ohio State Penitentiary is made
| up of... normal American people. You can't "separate" these
| two. So I guess I shouldn't criticize murderers either, lest I
| criticize all US citizens!
|
| (If you respond that murderers aren't normal citizens, then
| you're at least partway to understanding why it's possible to
| "separate" the Chinese government from its citizens.)
| pphysch wrote:
| If we bring your analogy all the way, we must assume that the
| majority of Chinese people secretly want imprisoned murderers
| freed, rather than supporting their incarceration.
|
| If imprisoned murderers are like empowered politicians, then
| toppling the government is like freeing the murderers. A
| revolution of the status quo.
|
| That's an obviously ridiculous claim to make; Chinese people
| do not want the dangerous murderers freed.
| t0bia_s wrote:
| I also created few propagandist poster focused on media
| manipulation and I can say those poster are inspiring and very
| well made. Good job, thanks for sharing.
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