[HN Gopher] On Being Broke
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On Being Broke
Author : vitabenes
Score : 64 points
Date : 2022-02-06 17:18 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (thomasjbevan.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (thomasjbevan.substack.com)
| sigmaprimus wrote:
| This was a well written article. Having gone through over a
| decade of hard times, I agree that a feeling of worthlessness and
| self loathing can easily set in.
|
| I would also agree with the point that when someone who has not
| had money for a long time that finally has a stroke of luck and
| gets some will find it easy to devil it away and end up broke in
| a short time...A fool and his money? It is easy to get money but
| hard to keep?
|
| There is a book called "The Richest Man in Babylon" written by
| George S. Clason that touches on this matter.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Richest_Man_in_Babylon_(bo...
|
| Not to be too critical about the article because as I said it was
| well written, but I felt as though it might be a little too
| intellectual for the common reader such as myself.
|
| Sometimes elegant words make an author look smart but can create
| a barrier to getting the intended message out. I may be way off
| saying this but personally felt the vocabulary was challenging at
| some times.
| brudgers wrote:
| Some Roman Catholic orders have drawn a useful distinction
| between _poverty_ and _misery_.
|
| Poverty is "what you eat."
|
| Misery is "whether you eat."
|
| Ordinary political discourse benefits from conflating both within
| poverty since this allows using misery counter-examples against
| poverty mitigation (these people have it worse) and poverty
| counter examples against misery mitigation (it's not so bad they
| have color TV's). And of course poverty is the better case
| scenario and misery sounds like what it is.
|
| Related, Scalzi's _Being Poor_ :
|
| https://whatever.scalzi.com/2005/09/03/being-poor/?amp
| spzb wrote:
| British author, chef and campaigner Jack Monroe's been saying
| some interesting things recently regarding poverty and food price
| inflation [0]. She argues that those at the bottom of the income
| spectrum suffer a far higher percentage rate of inflation, in
| part because supermarkets just withdraw their cheapest priced
| ranges forcing the less well-off to spend more, even if the next
| highest price product has remained roughly the same price. She's
| working on a new measure of food price inflation named in honour
| of Terry Pratchett and with the blessing of his estate [1]
|
| [0] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jan/22/were-
| pricing...
|
| [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/26/terry-
| pratchet...
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| The irony is that Ghrelin the hunger hormone increases
| intelligence. Its nature's way of helping mammals become
| innovative in obtaining food.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805706/ "Ghrelin
| also promotes rapid reorganization of synaptic terminals in the
| hypothalamus28, and in the hippocampus it promotes synapse
| formation in dendritic spines and LTP, which are paralleled by
| enhanced spatial learning and memory formation29."
|
| I am amazed at how much the financial system imitates what life
| would be like living in the wild 1000's of years ago.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Huh, would this be noticeable from _e.g._ intermittent
| fasting?
| cptaj wrote:
| While that may be true, I would caution about thinking that
| hunger promotes intelligence in the long term in any way.
|
| I'm not an expert but I would confidently bet that the
| effects of malnutrition on cognitive ability FAR outweigh
| this hormonal effect.
| __s wrote:
| Note that they're talking about a hormone that gives the
| feeling of hunger, rather than hunger as a result of
| malnutrition
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| Benzoic Acid and its derivatives
| (Sodium/Potassium/Calcium) Benzoate affect Leptin,
| another hunger/satiety hormone.
| Terry_Roll wrote:
| https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/fat-people-have-
| less-b...
|
| Considering how obese the West is, is it any wonder why the
| West is losing its edge, especially the US?
|
| Now malnutrition is different to being hungry, you can be
| obese and suffering from malnutrition. A purified diet is
| malnutrition.
|
| Its why if you are in the US army and you get slammed in
| the can for punishment, you only get bottled water and a
| multi vitamin pill as your nutrition for the time you spend
| in there. Thats all you need to know to get your fighting
| spirit back!
| ignoramous wrote:
| > _Considering how obese the West is, is it any wonder
| why the West is losing its edge...?_
|
| Correlation doesn't equal causation. Fisher would go
| ballistic at such assertions.
| [deleted]
| hgomersall wrote:
| Except it doesn't because what actually happens when people
| are in poverty is they can't escape for a whole litany of
| reasons that have nothing to do with intelligence: the stress
| of being borderline able to pay bills and having to work long
| hours mean they have no capacity to think about how to
| improve things, or even basics like healthy eating; they
| can't afford to buy ingredients in bulk so they're forced to
| buy much less efficiently and so spend more; the health
| effects of poverty, both direct and indirect put additional
| time and cost pressure on them; etc etc.
|
| Don't get me wrong, the fact that ghrelin may have an impact
| on intelligence is fascinating, I just don't think it has
| anything to say about poverty.
| abakker wrote:
| I think that argument may be right, but it isn't that
| groundbreaking.
|
| An important point here is that every cost is regressive for
| the poor. The poorer you are the worse any cost is. As a
| result, rising prices hurt the poor more, and low quality cheap
| items end up hurting the poor more. But; it is obvious to say
| this. There's no will to fix these problems.
| anitil wrote:
| I heard them on an episode of 'More Or Less' making their case
| as well [0]
|
| [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0013r9w
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| >supermarkets just withdraw their cheapest priced ranges
|
| As an Australian, that's really interesting to hear.
|
| In the past 5-10 years, we've seen an explosion in the
| availability of cheap, decent-ish quality "home brand" products
| in supermarkets and our media regularly runs stories arguing
| that certain foods (notably milk) have become too cheap for
| farmers to be able to reap a healthy profit.
| michaelt wrote:
| UK supermarkets have some _extremely_ cheap products - 13p
| (US$0.18) for a can of spaghetti in tomato sauce [1], 20p
| (US$0.27) for five meals worth of pasta [2].
|
| They're so cheap I can't believe they make more than a penny
| or two of profit. And raising the price by even a few pennies
| is above the rate of inflation. And if they stop selling
| those super-cheap products? The next cheapest product is 3x
| the price.
|
| [1] https://groceries.asda.com/product/tinned-pasta/asda-
| smart-p... [2] https://groceries.asda.com/product/spaghetti-
| tagliatelle/asd...
| tibbar wrote:
| I grew up fairly poor in a large family. One of the constants was
| that something important was always broken but we couldn't afford
| to fix it just then - a car, the washing machine, the computer; a
| couple times, the electricity. We went on DIY camping vacations.
| There was always a vague notion that we were on the brink of
| insolvency. (But through some supreme act of will my parents
| always found money for music lessons.) As kids we learned that if
| we wanted something, we had to find the money. The clever
| siblings would win contests with cash prizes, $100, $250. The
| rest of us had various side hustles like neighborhood snow
| shoveling and leaf blowing...
|
| This process was short-circuited immediately for those of us who
| went into tech. It's the new gold rush; you really can go west
| and seek your fortune. Remarkable times.
| dijit wrote:
| Agree completely. It's absolutely insane how much I earn today,
| and this is in Europe which falls behind US in a tremendous
| way.
|
| My mum raised me on PS50 a week at most, I spend more than that
| on food a week, let alone any of the other essentials.
|
| Sometimes I get this kind of impotent rage, that I should boil
| in my gut and write out exactly how life was like and how it's
| completely unfair to those still trapped in that life who
| weren't lucky enough to adore computers.
|
| In some ways it's worse for them now than it was for my mum...
| that's unimaginable honestly, there were times we chose between
| electricity and food...
|
| But all my baying on a personal blog is going to do nothing.
| Another sob story in a sea of thousands, and deafening silence
| from the "haves" of our society- unwilling or unable to relate
| to another human being in torrid inescapable misery.
|
| And they wonder why poverty and alcohol abuse are linked.
| another_story wrote:
| You need a sea to have a tsunami. Whatever it takes to make
| people realize there a issues that need to be fixed. Write
| down your experiences, even if it's only a record for
| yourself.
| Atlas667 wrote:
| This is a very romantic account of poverty. Poverty, in general,
| in the abstract form, is not due the lack of philosophical
| questions on purpose, meaning or goals, or even bad spending.
| Poverty in the here and now is a part of our social system. It
| will not be eradicated while capital rules societies because it
| depends on it.
|
| Loved ones killing themselves with crack cocaine can not be
| remembered fondly. Shitty emotional lives for children because of
| stressed out, alienated parents isn't either. Living in decay and
| not having basic necessities like a functioning sink met are not
| hot. The effects of poverty on self esteem are downright
| harrowing and saddening to even see.
| max_ wrote:
| >Having found the work, most other things beside the work fall by
| the way side. And whatever your current financial situation I
| hope the same becomes true for you.
|
| The economic reality that came to me in my mid 20's was that you
| have to work to stay alive, society has no room for pets. (not if
| your already rich of course.)
|
| If someone emphasized this more strongly for me when growing up,
| it would have helped a lot.
| alar44 wrote:
| vmception wrote:
| > the amount of sheer will, determination and delayed
| gratification needed to stay on the path for long enough to leave
| penury is beyond the realm of most peoples ability.
|
| I don't think it is just delayed gratification that is a
| challenge, I think it is how a little bit of saved or scrounged
| up money can't change your circumstances.
|
| When you're behind on rent two months, about to get an eviction
| court mark on your record, have collections hounding you or an
| impending bankruptcy proceeding, doing things like buying a
| pleasurable consumer electronic or pricy clothes doesn't change
| that, it doesn't _make a dent_ in that. Your money either goes in
| a black hole of interest payments and mounting obligations, or it
| goes into a nice escape that even the bankruptcy judge can 't
| take from you. They probably won't even bother with your consumer
| goods.
|
| So until the utility of the money amounts changes, along with the
| speed the money amounts come in, there is no point in pretending
| that the circumstance will change due to your own discipline.
|
| People are going to be just as apathetic and critical of your
| circumstance either way if you have blemishes on your credit or
| have trouble keeping a lease for a home. It doesn't matter
| whether you saved marvelously or spent frivolously.
| snarf21 wrote:
| I think people miss how expensive it is to be poor.
| thatsamonad wrote:
| I would add that it's not only expensive financially but also
| in terms of time.
|
| I grew up very poor and was fairly poor as an adult until
| about 6-7 years ago. I constantly had to make time trade
| offs. Do I exercise or evaluate and cut coupons to make my
| meager grocery budget last longer? Do I meal plan to make my
| money stretch further or spend that time investing in a
| skill? Not to mention things like not having reliable
| transportation, which meant taking the bus to and from work
| which tends to be a 2-3x longer commute. And if the bus was
| ever late, minimum wage retail jobs don't really care so you
| get a "mark" on your record and potentially written up/fired
| if it happens too many times.
|
| I consider myself very fortunate that I was lucky enough to
| find myself a tech job and pull myself out of my previous
| financial situation. But I get the sense that a lot of people
| here haven't been through that so they take it for granted
| just how much more difficult it is to be poor, at least in
| the US.
| eurasiantiger wrote:
| All the free lunches are served to those with a high ROI.
| brightball wrote:
| I helped a kid at my church pay off a title loan that he got
| when he was desperate to make rent. The interest rate was
| 212%.
| tibbar wrote:
| Yes. It is true that some people just need to live within their
| means. But for people who are poor in the traditional sense,
| the cash flow is just too low. There's no way to live well on
| that income. Finding ways to save cash isn't really an endgame,
| other than perhaps tactically preventing going bankrupt from an
| extra medical expense, etc. What you need is more income. The
| most reliable vehicle to this is to go to college and make
| plans to go into a healthcare/engineering/accounting etc
| career, but that's a really hard plan to pivot to at a certain
| point in life.
| vmception wrote:
| > but that's a really hard plan to pivot to at a certain
| point in life.
|
| or while the cash flow is just too low at any point in life
| whatshisface wrote:
| There's something seriously wrong with a society where nobody
| can live comfortably without a white-collar job while at the
| same time there's no way we would survive if we were _all_
| accountants.
| tibbar wrote:
| I agree. How do you see us fixing this? Maybe universal
| basic income? Over the last century we've eliminated many
| of the positions in agriculture and manufacturing that were
| traditionally considered good blue collar jobs. Automation
| on that front is only going to increase. Obviously the gig
| jobs - Uber, Lyft, DoorDash - are a really poor
| substitute...
| brightball wrote:
| I was helping a hard working kid with some financial
| education and told him essentially the same thing. He simply
| needed to make more money. He was making $13 / hour at the
| time and I helped him line up an interview with a guy who was
| ready to hire him doing the same thing for $25 / hour +
| professional training.
|
| He ghosted me and the interviewer. I'd been working with him
| for MONTHS to help get his life straightened out.
|
| I still have no idea why he did it.
| h2odragon wrote:
| Toilets are not mystical mechanisms; the flush is simply pouring
| water into the bowl. When the tank's empty, or (as is common now
| with "low flow" toilets) insufficient to the job, pouring more
| water into the bowl from a bucket or jug will work.
|
| I submit that _that_ aint "broke". You're "broke" when you have
| to decide whether to repair the car so you can get to work, or
| repair the heater so you can sleep and shower and stuff, or buy
| food. "Broke" is when you know all the places you can hit for
| free crackers on your way to somewhere else.
| solarmist wrote:
| Agreed about the toilet, but don't be a gatekeeper.
|
| > Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Like everything else there's a spectrum. And there are plenty
| of problems that start well before worrying about your next
| meal.
| axiolite wrote:
| > pouring more water into the bowl from a bucket or jug will
| work.
|
| Which is what they did, so I fail to see the point of your
| comment.
| ravloony wrote:
| Ah, but that is not what he wrote. He never claimed the toilet
| was broken because he was broke, but due to bad organisational
| skills.
|
| He then used the story to illustrate the fact that such things
| can become fond memories, and related _that_ fact to poverty.
|
| At least, that is how I understand the text.
| jackyinger wrote:
| If this is interesting to you, I would absolutely recommend you
| read Down and Out in Paris and London by George Orwell. It is a
| very engaging account of a period of destitution in his life.
| misiti3780 wrote:
| Great book!
| germinalphrase wrote:
| "Hunger" by Knut Hamsun is another one.
| VictorPath wrote:
| Karl Marx said there was no such thing as poverty, and of course
| he was right. People do not have a relationship with things,
| other than perhaps possessions (not property) like the shirt on
| your back. There are no signs pointing down from the heavens that
| someone owns this office building or factory or mine or IP rights
| to a 1927 film or book. People have relationships with one
| another. There is an idle class of heirs and there is a working
| class. Being broke is in the context of these social relations.
| Pointing to material items like federal reserve notes in a bank
| under some account number is a fetishism ignoring what is
| obvious, these basic relations between classes - heirs and
| workers.
| throw8932894 wrote:
| kkjjkgjjgg wrote:
| Silly question, but what typically causes prolonged poverty?
|
| Apart from illnesses (including mental illnesses and addiction),
| isn't it mostly a matter of finding a reasonably paid job
| eventually?
|
| I have known times when I had little money, but it was in part
| also because I did not want a job and tried other things. But at
| least when I was younger, I think falling back onto a job would
| have been an option. Wouldn't it for most people? I mean even if
| you have to look for two years, wouldn't most "normal" people be
| able to get a job eventually?
| vestrigi wrote:
| Some job types just die out and the workers can't catch on
| because they did very specific work that isn't required anymore
| and they don't have much experience in other tasks. Yes, there
| are ways to relearn another trade or a similar one but it gets
| harder the older you get. Often the case with parents who have
| taken a longer break from working because they're taking care
| of their children or even people taking care of an ill family
| member.
| another_story wrote:
| Where does one live in those two years while they are looking
| for this job? With no income they may end up in a shelter or
| their car, sleeping half on and off, mentally and physically
| exhausted. They then have a host of problems that come with
| being homeless. How many jobs hire homeless people?
| lozenge wrote:
| Make a list of the jobs that aren't "reasonably paid" then note
| that our society runs on a certain percentage of people being
| in those jobs at all times. US govt has a detailed breakdown if
| you're interested.
|
| I would say falling out with your parents is a common cause of
| poverty. Which can be due to homophobia, alcohol abuse, abuse,
| any number of things. But the parent's issues have a knock on
| effect on the child.
|
| Once you're in poverty it's difficult to get out. You lack a
| car (which makes everything more expensive and time consuming),
| lose confidence, get hungry and can no longer think straight...
| instead of up skilling it is difficult enough just to balance
| food and the bills.
| throwingawayyou wrote:
| Poor people have more 45% more leisure time than wealthy.
|
| Society as a whole has more leisure time than any time of history
| before. We still bitch day after day, minute after minute.
|
| source... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3JLaF_4Tz8
| floe wrote:
| Damn, I guess I should become poor
| WriterGuy2021 wrote:
| More unqualified leisure time isn't what most people want. Most
| people want meaningful connections to others. Watching T.V. for
| eight hours isn't going to make people feel good. Feeling
| connected and maintaining a sense of belonging is what is
| lacking in the modern world.
| Traster wrote:
| One thing that gave me hope recently is seeing Jack Monroe
| campaigning for the Vimes index. I wont try and word it as well
| as the man himself:
|
| > "The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was
| because they managed to spend less money, Take boots, for
| example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances.
| A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an
| affordable pair of boots, which were sort of okay for a season or
| two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost
| about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always
| bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell
| where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the
| cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and
| years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots
| that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while a
| poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a
| hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have
| wet feet."
|
| And to some extent, people focus on the economics, but I think
| it's just as important to point out - how good would your day be
| if you had wet feet.
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