[HN Gopher] Building a modern home in the woods
___________________________________________________________________
Building a modern home in the woods
Author : hokumguru
Score : 327 points
Date : 2022-02-03 15:47 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (johnnyrodgers.is)
(TXT) w3m dump (johnnyrodgers.is)
| jkestner wrote:
| I wish there were more detailed blogs on the building process. I
| really liked this construction blog with estimates and final
| numbers by category that educate you on how plans meet reality.
| https://ahousebythepark.com/journal/
| nathias wrote:
| why do people find these abject squares beautiful?
| wffurr wrote:
| I had a similar thought; why design a pile of boxes like that?
| Seems weird to me.
| tiborsaas wrote:
| I don't know, but it's beautiful. Maybe because of the ratios,
| maybe because it looks so intentional, it relaxes me.
|
| At the same time, I find these boxes horrible:
| https://nlc.p3k.hu/uploads/2019/07/ferencvarosi-helytortenet...
| ajuc wrote:
| I wonder why people always post commieblocks photographed in
| a cloudy day in the winter. Usually also just after they were
| built so no trees yet.
|
| In reality that's how they look like (3 photos from 3
| different districts in my city):
|
| https://spoldzielnialsm.pl/wp-
| content/uploads/2018/05/Obecni...
|
| https://d-art.ppstatic.pl/kadry/k/r/1/7e/04/5ed7c0329f818_o_.
| ..
|
| https://d-art.ppstatic.pl/kadry/k/r/1/79/a3/52da7c5466e91_o_.
| ..
|
| And frankly, they are much better designed than most modern
| neighborhoods built today in my country. A school,
| healthcare, some local shops, library, park, playground,
| sport infrastructure in 10 minute walking distance and public
| transport making it possible not to have a car.
|
| Also - for the CO2 emissions that canadian house causes you
| could comfortably support about 100 families living in the
| commieblocks. With no fancy solar panels nor heatpumps.
| tiborsaas wrote:
| That was the first I've found.
|
| Have you lived in these? I have and they are terrible
| places to live in. Parking spaces are ridiculously under
| planned, because workers used took a bus, but today most
| families own at least one car. These buildings are near
| their end of life since they weren't designed to last.
|
| They are rather depressing to look at, but that's just me.
|
| Soundproofing doesn't exists, moving walls is limited,
| inner height is claustrophobic.
|
| I don't recommend to look up to these as any good. Maybe
| something to learn from.
| ajuc wrote:
| > Have you lived in these?
|
| Yes, in several different ones (when I was studying in
| Lublin I lived in 3 different places and later I rented a
| flat in Warsaw). I also lived in a detached house in
| countryside for most of my life and now I live in a
| reasonably modern neighborhood. I have a comparison.
|
| > Parking spaces are ridiculously under planned, because
| workers used took a bus
|
| That's the best feature of them. You can walk everywhere
| and cars are optional. Your kids can play with other kids
| without constant supervision. There's no vandalized
| underground passes stinking of piss where you get mugged.
| Old and disabled people can actually live there on their
| own. My wife's grandmother moved from a detached house to
| an old commieblock in a nearby city because of that - she
| doesn't drive anymore and living within walking distance
| of basically everything is a huge positive.
|
| > These buildings are near their end of life since they
| weren't designed to last.
|
| The ones in Poland are good to go for the next 30-50
| years. It mostly depends on the rust protection for the
| concrete reinforcement. The cheapest ones with no
| protection are soon going to fall apart but we had very
| little of them. We built them with some galvanic
| protection. The ones with stainless steel are basically
| forever, but we had almost none of those.
|
| > inner height is claustrophobic
|
| 250 cm. The same as in modern blocks in Poland (my
| current flat has 255 cm and that mostly depends on what
| kind of floor you have). It's the building code still. In
| fact the building code is much worse now - for example
| distances between blocks are several times smaller and
| there's no requirement to plan utilities in new
| neighborhoods. The end result is this:
|
| https://static.polityka.pl/_resource/res/path/17/a1/17a1a
| 73c...
|
| Notice that it's all houses and parking, no utilities
| whatsoever. No public transport. Schools, shops, parks,
| health clinic - you need to drive through these tiny
| roads with your car to get to all of these. The end
| result is traffic jams and people sitting in their houses
| all day cause there's nowhere to go.
|
| I will grant you soundproofing is worse, but even in
| modern blocks you can still hear your neighbors.
| toastedwedge wrote:
| It's different from traditional square houses. Most houses are
| a big box with a sloping roof, so anything that deviates from
| that expectation is interesting (for some).
|
| My 2C/ from observation. I could be completely wrong, too.
| claudiulodro wrote:
| The way to do this if you're not wealthy is to get a cheapo plot
| of land on the Oregon/Washington coast ($<100k for up to .5
| acres) and put a manufactured home on it. It's way simpler,
| cheaper, and the construction on manufactured homes has improved
| a lot over the years (they're framed with 2x6s to survive
| transport, and this makes them sturdier and better insulated than
| most traditional houses). I did it and it's been great! No
| complaints. No architectural magazine is going to feature my
| house though.
| celestialcheese wrote:
| Is there a difference with manufactured vs prefab in the resale
| process in the eyes of lenders?
|
| That's what has always steered me clear of doing this. If you
| need to sell, I've learned that manufactured homes are not
| lendable by many institutions. Maybe this new class of modular
| will count as "Stick built" for lending purposes. They seem
| really nice.
| carabiner wrote:
| Yeah where can I find land like this within 30 minutes of
| Seattle/Tacoma?
| claudiulodro wrote:
| You can't, because land within commuting distance of a major
| city is going to have more people that want it, and be more
| expensive. You need to go farther out. I'm not super familiar
| with the Washington coast, but in Oregon places like Lincoln
| City, Yachats, Coos Bay, Otis, etc.
| DVassallo wrote:
| You can't. (I just bought 12 acres 50mins within Seattle.)
| carabiner wrote:
| Wow. Might I ask where? I'm thinking of places like the
| outskirts of Monroe, North Bend. I've heard of people doing
| this farther out on the Peninsula in places like Port
| Angeles.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| You're about 15 years too late to find 'deals' in
| Monroe/North Bend area. It's seeing huge growth and
| property values are way up. There's not as much land as
| you think too since a lot of it butts up against state
| and national forests.
| carabiner wrote:
| Well. Anywhere else? Should I go out to Wenatchee?
| WSSP wrote:
| there's a lot of land on the WA/OR coast, but you won't find
| it cheap in a Seattle suburb, which is where a 30 minute
| drive along the coastline will take you
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Expand to 1.5 hours or so drive and I bet you could find some
| options.
| CalRobert wrote:
| The book How to Build a House, by Larry Haun, is a great read
| if you want to try this yourself.
|
| irishvernacular.com/ also has a guide to building a lovely,
| modest, warm home yourself (with friends, admittedly) for <50k
| .
| georgeoliver wrote:
| Great link, thank you!
| second--shift wrote:
| He has a great series of VHS tapes (wow getting old) uploaded
| to Youtube, just search his name. Highly worth a watch
| bradly wrote:
| Also in BC/PNW you can buy old houses that are going to be
| demolished. Some friends on Lopez Island had an old home
| shipped over and plopped on their 40 acres where they then
| started growing wheat and baking bread.
|
| https://www.nickelbros.com/residential/homes-for-sale/
| throwaway98211 wrote:
| What manufactured homes did you consider during the process?
| carabiner wrote:
| Another option is kit homes. I've been looking at First Day
| Cottage and Shelter-Kit. They are designed to be assembled by
| homeowners, but some people hire contractors. This FDC on
| Reddit looks extraordinary.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/comments/sibihx/first_d.
| ..
|
| https://www.shelter-kit.com/patrick-kit.html
| asavadatti wrote:
| Any recommendations on manufactured homes?
| JALTU wrote:
| Here's one, see my comment about: https://www.ideabox.us/
| coding123 wrote:
| You must not be aware that mfg homes have gone up in price by
| about 60% and are now on 14 month wait.
| bkjelden wrote:
| Still going to be cheaper than a site-built home in a rural,
| high cost of living area.
|
| The materials price increases that are causing factories to
| raise their prices are also hitting local contractors who do
| site-built homes.
|
| In fact, if anything, the factories can insulate you from
| this price volatility more because they have a lot more
| bargaining leverage with their suppliers than a local
| contractor who's doing 10 homes a year.
| JALTU wrote:
| In my short experience, there is a very practical difference
| between "manufactured" and "modular" which is explained at the
| Ideabox site link below.
|
| We have seen/stayed in one of these Ideabox homes and they seem
| a good balance for a house when you're not a "I want to build
| my dream castle" kind of person (that's me).
|
| https://www.ideabox.us/
| JALTU wrote:
| To clarify a little: Where I am interested in building, there
| are county-wide laws or code regarding mfg vs mod homes,
| effectively taking one of those options off the table for me.
|
| And, just to be clear, I am _not_ a build my castle person,
| but I do want something more modern than the usual cabin in
| the woods. Hence, Ideabox...
| xyzzyz wrote:
| Regular houses these days are also commonly built with 2x6s for
| external walls.
| dekerta wrote:
| That might depend where you live. 2x6 is standard here in my
| part of Canada, but that's just for added insulation, not for
| any structural reason. Older homes were built with 2x4
| exteriors
| xyzzyz wrote:
| Yes, it's being forced all around by new insulation codes.
| Structurally, 2x4 walls are plenty enough.
| [deleted]
| hnthrowaway0315 wrote:
| The manufactured home thing is really interesting. Do you have
| more information regarding that? I Googled a bit and found much
| info about "Mobile home", is it the same thing?
| bkjelden wrote:
| Yes.
|
| In factory built home parlance, generally, a 'mobile' home is
| built to HUD building codes (which are the same nationwide)
| and is not considered a permanent residence - often time it
| stays on wheels even when put in place, and can theoretically
| be moved at a later date (although they rarely ever are).
| These are also sometimes referred to as 'trailer houses'.
| They used to be built very cheaply and were a depreciating
| asset (think like a car or an RV), but there are higher
| quality options these days.
|
| A 'modular home' will be built to spec to the local building
| codes wherever it is being placed (which is usually IRC +
| whatever peculiarities local government officials have tacked
| on). They are placed on a permanent foundation, cannot be
| moved, and are generally treated as equivalent to a site-
| built home once finished. Again, you can spend a little or a
| lot on these, some factories will do fully custom designs
| that would be completely indistinguishable from a high-end
| site-built home once finished.
|
| Many factories will build either variety, some specialize on
| one over the other. In rural, higher cost of living areas
| both varieties are often quite a bit cheaper than a site-
| built home, both because of the efficiencies and economies of
| scale a factory can provide, and also because they can be
| built in an area with lower labor costs and shipped to your
| land.
|
| In populated, growing urban areas, the cost benefit
| diminishes a bit because production builders can approximate
| the benefits a factory has by building 100s of homes in the
| same neighborhood at the same time.
|
| edit to add: My information pertains to the US, the article
| references land in Canada. I don't know as much about factory
| built homes or building codes in Canada.
| claudiulodro wrote:
| We used Skyline: https://www.skylinehomes.com/ They're pretty
| standard American-looking houses, though a little narrower
| than a traditional house because they put them on a truck.
| subpixel wrote:
| This reminds me a lot of time I spend reading Dwell magazine a
| decade ago.
|
| Since that time, I've moved past the point where building such a
| house is impossible for me financially, but I've also moved past
| the point where such a house is attractive to me.
|
| I saved up a lot of back issues of Dwell thinking I'd refer to
| them when building a dream home, and in a move a few years ago I
| threw them out. It felt exactly like what I imagine throwing out
| an adult magazine collection might feel like - oddly relieving.
|
| Like airbrushed nude photos in Playboy (showing my age, I know),
| grand home schemes of all kinds are a pursuit of perfection. But
| nothing is perfect, or stays that way very long, and the higher
| your expectation and expense in relation to objects-as-happiness,
| the greater the disappointment.
|
| I really am a sucker for innovative architecture, but for me,
| innovation is about dealing with constraints, not conquering
| nature and heating your pool at all costs.
| vonseel wrote:
| Yeah, it blew my mind that having a pool was so important to
| someone in a cold place like Canada. We have a pool in Texas
| and while it was installed with propane heating 30 years ago,
| the heating has really never been used as it's not efficient to
| do so. I can't imagine how much it would cost to heat a pool in
| the author's climate.
| david38 wrote:
| freetime2 wrote:
| I have often dreamed about buying a vacation property. But when I
| seriously consider it, the idea of owning a second property
| stresses me out. There is the time and money investment to buy
| and maintain the property. Then there is the worry about a home
| being vacant most of the time - is a pipe going to burst or is
| someone going to break into it? And there is the guilt when you
| aren't using it - would we realistically be able to visit even
| once per month?
|
| Perhaps if I were significantly wealthier, the financial burden
| would be less and I could pay someone else to deal with any
| issues that arise. But for now, I feel like a second home would
| own me more than I own it.
| deltaonefour wrote:
| Kind of off topic, but anybody know how I would gain the skills
| of building a house from scratch without quitting my day job as a
| developer?
| anonAndOn wrote:
| You're going to need to figure out what trades you want to do
| and what ones you'll need/want to hire out. Volunteer to work
| on other people's projects for free (or beer) to see what you
| enjoy working on. For example, Habitat for Humanity and other
| home building charities often need bodies and can be a good way
| to sample different aspects of a build.
|
| Then, start small and try your hand at something simple like a
| shed. Once you've shelled out for all of the tools you'll need
| to build a shed, you're well on your way to the investment in
| tools you'll need to build a home and can decide from there
| whether to proceed.
| mikeg8 wrote:
| First step is to thoroughly understand the building process and
| sequence of construction as well as all the materials,
| fasteners, tools, etc. Then for building, start small with a
| chicken coop or shed with relatively low risk if the build goes
| south. Going from zero to house without serious supervision
| from experience builders is a recipe for a failed structure.
|
| Check out Larry Haun's books as well as the Essential Craftsman
| Youtube channel where he films an entire house build. Also the
| Build Channel with Matt Risinger is great for more advance
| topics.
| sdze wrote:
| No Costs listed. Didn't read it.
| flooow wrote:
| I ctrl-F for 'cost', then for '$', nothing. Close tab.
| kerneloftruth wrote:
| I think you're supposed to just be mesmerized by (and envious
| of) these wonderful people.
|
| Quite a "hey, look at us" piece.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| First comment from my partner was "I don't know if this is the
| Parasite house of an Apple Store" :-).
|
| But really, so many weird decisions here that make no sense: why
| would you put your kid's bed next to your bedroom in a new build?
| Why the bathrooms next to the bedrooms for your kid? Why cement
| floors and no floor heating? How did you end up at 400A/96kw of
| service (my car charges slower than that!). Why not building a
| indoor pool instead of a outdoor one? Feels a lot like your
| architect and contractors saw you had too much tech money and not
| enough common sense.
|
| That, and the fake pretending to care about the environment when
| you live in the middle of nowhere and have a heated outdoor pool
| with 96kw of service in Canada is just astounding!
| carabiner wrote:
| It's the REI HQ: https://www.geekwire.com/2020/facebook-buys-
| reis-new-hq-367m...
| glxxyz wrote:
| That exposed wood with no rain protection will age terribly.
| I've seen quite a few houses for sale with this sort of design
| that probably looked good new too.
| KaiserPro wrote:
| it _looks_ like its carborised, ie slightly burnt, so it
| should last pretty well.
| m_ke wrote:
| That's not true, if you have spacers behind the wood it
| should dry properly and last a long time. See https://www.bui
| ldingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-t...
| rootusrootus wrote:
| This is something sort of like what I want to do, though I think
| my budget is probably an order of magnitude smaller.
| CalRobert wrote:
| I haven't used them myself (I live in Europe) but in the US there
| are companies that will build passive houses and ship them to you
| in parts. https://www.phoenixhaus.com/ comes to mind.
|
| I took a similar approach to building a new house on a field in
| Ireland - my house was built in Latvia and assembled in a week or
| so by a local crew.
| belval wrote:
| > BC Hydro's solar payback plan is regressive: generation on
| grid-tied installations only allows you to pay your bill down to
| $0. You cannot earn money or credit for producing more than you
| use.
|
| It's not regressive, it's because BC is not California and peak
| power consumption in the mid-late afternoon is not a thing.
| Paying people to feed the grid when the sun shine just doesn't
| make sense in that region.
|
| I'm usually pretty cool with these success blog post, but
| something about this one really makes me angry. It feels like the
| author just consider himself to be above the people that actually
| lives there.
| ggcdn wrote:
| Interesting read, who hasn't dreamt of doing something like this
| (perhaps at different scales). I've started saving for a parcel
| of land in the Kootenays to build a.. ahem... much less grandiose
| dwelling for weekend getaways.
|
| I would invest in a couple of these [0]
|
| [0] http://www.onestopfire.com/sprinklers.htm
| zucked wrote:
| Thanks for this - I have what you might call champagne taste on a
| beer budget. I've always wanted to live in a small, but highly
| efficient house in the woods. You know, something that looks like
| it came from an architectural magazine. But I am consistently
| blown away by what even pre-fab homes cost. I clearly don't have
| the budget that the author does, but the process felt eerily
| similar to mine so far.
|
| It's never mentioned how much acreage was purchased, I don't
| think. My mental block is anything sub 5 acres where I am
| looking. My current trouble is that I don't live anywhere near
| where the property I am looking at is. Getting there is... quite
| a to-do. I'm leery of putting much trust in a realtor as my
| eyes/ears given that 1.) the property is cheap enough that their
| commission will be small potatoes and 2.) they have an incentive
| to sell you _something_. How does one navigate that part? How
| much of the soil test/survey/etc was done pre-sales, how much was
| a contingency, or do you just YOLO it?
| brailsafe wrote:
| 5.287 acres fwiw. I hope they add some of these details.
| MezzoDelCammin wrote:
| "The bigger issue was that the energy demands for the house,
| which included hot water heating for the pool and hot tub,
| outstripped the electrical supply we could get on a rural
| residential build: 400A"
|
| Am I the only one who almost spit out his coffee when reading
| this paragraph? I mean, building a remote home in the middle of a
| forest is a cool idea, sure. But then end up feeding the whole
| thing with 400A worth of electricity? And when the current is too
| high, end up supplementing with a propane generator?
|
| Am I missing something? As a European, I'm used to way more
| modest figures for family homes - maybe 400V @ 25A plus gas for
| heating.
| [deleted]
| ReleaseCandidat wrote:
| > Am I the only one who almost spit out his coffee when reading
| this paragraph?
|
| No, I thought that was a typo and should be 40A (so 120V * 40 A
| or 400V * 12A).
| desdiv wrote:
| It's not a typo because 400A is indeed the highest tier
| residential service BC Hydro currently offers[0]. 400A is
| also in the right ballpark for the amount of equipment he
| describes.
|
| [0] https://app.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/electrical-
| connecti...
| ReleaseCandidat wrote:
| Oh, I believe that. The number is, well, unbelievable high,
| so I dismissed it as wrong without further thinking.
| rhacker wrote:
| The copper coming from "something" will be at least 1/2
| inch thick, probably more so that it doesn't lose voltage.
| We're probably talking a 7/0 cable where 4/0 would be bare
| minimum.
| pinot wrote:
| Probably larger than that. If they're 200m from the
| transformer, 400A service requires (3) 1000kcmil cables
| per leg. 100m drops it to (3) 350kcmil which is still
| pretty beefy
| [deleted]
| 83 wrote:
| You aren't missing anything, that's pretty ludicrous. My
| (midwest USA) house has 100A service, and I weld for fun and
| run a rack with servers. The welder can make the lights dim
| which makes me want 200A, but 400A is just insane.
| obelos wrote:
| I feel downright minimalist now with my 120A/120V grid service.
| pengaru wrote:
| The house is obscene, but just because one has 400A service
| doesn't necessarily mean they're being inefficient in doing so.
|
| It could just be to handle momentary bursts, and the equipment
| drawing that power might actually be doing the job more
| efficiently than something that does it slower, drawing more
| power cumulatively over a longer period of time.
| jeffbee wrote:
| The whole thing is pretend environmentalism. It starts out with
| some superficially "green" elements like solar power but
| eventually throws it all out the window when that conflicts
| with luxury or desire. In the end they've built a huge,
| inefficient house with enough embodied energy to power Ghana
| for a year, only accessible with the family's giant gas-
| guzzling truck, as depicted.
| rland wrote:
| Pure comedy.
|
| > _A goal for the build was to limit impact to the site
| during construction, and then to limit the footprint of the
| home after completion. In pursuit of this we planned an
| efficient mechanical design that would feature solar panels
| for electricity generation tied to the grid, geothermal for
| heat exchange, and no fossil fuels._
|
| Oh, great, sound like you have some good environmental
| principles!
|
| > _However, we quickly ran into several problems with this
| approach._
|
| Yeah, it can be a bummer to sacrifice your own comfort. But
| it is worth it for the environment!
|
| > _The bigger issue was that the energy demands for the
| house, which included hot water heating for the pool and hot
| tub, outstripped the electrical supply we could get on a
| rural residential build: 400A._
|
| Wow, that's a lot of electricity. Like, a loooooot. Maybe we
| can pare it down a little bit -- limiting our impact is
| important, right?
|
| > _We eventually settled on supplementing our electrical
| generation with propane, which we had hoped to avoid_
|
| Right?
|
| O-oh. Oh so you're using _propane_ to _heat the pool_.
|
| Yeah.
| antisthenes wrote:
| The amount of cognitive dissonance required to say "we want to
| limit impact" on one hand, and to run a 400Amp electrical
| connection to heat your hot tub _and pool_ in Canada, is
| staggering.
| i_love_music wrote:
| The lack of self awareness of people is staggering. How is it
| even possible to be this blind to it?
| Fiahil wrote:
| "low impact" for North Americans, maybe... No wonder that
| we're at the begining of a climat change disaster.
| yongjik wrote:
| I doubt most North Americans need a 400A connection. (How
| much wattage is that? 48kW?) I live in an ordinary single
| house in a boring suburb in the bay area, and on hottest
| days, if I have to use the A/C, the oven, and the dryer at
| the same time, maybe it would push it over ~10kW. Maybe
| once in a year.
| mholm wrote:
| > Bay Area
|
| Most places in the US experience much harsher seasons
| than the Bay Area.
| bee_rider wrote:
| There are places where we waste energy because we're
| doing dumb stuff: in northern parts of the country, your
| house should be well insulated and designed for cold
| temperatures.
|
| Then there are places like Nevada, which are just not
| suitable for large-scale habitation. "Can we make this
| monument to our hubris more energy efficient" is kind of
| missing the point, right?
| yongjik wrote:
| True, most places would need to run A/C or heater much
| more often than California, but I doubt they need three
| times as powerful an A/C at any given moment.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| 400A @ 240v is 96kW
| cglace wrote:
| Do you really believe the average North American has a
| heated pool AND hot tub in a frigid northern climate?
| bee_rider wrote:
| I'll not defend our wasteful habits -- we really are
| screwing up the world over here -- but still, most North
| Americans don't have electrical outdoor heated pools. In a
| rural, fairly chilly area... that's really something.
| crowbahr wrote:
| As a European you probably don't have an outdoor heated pool &
| hot tub in a frigid northern climate.
|
| I also think it's ridiculous, for what it's worth. 400A is a
| wild amount of electricity for a supposedly high efficiency,
| modern home.
| mips_avatar wrote:
| You'll find a hot tub/sauna in most Scandinavian cabins.
| Ekaros wrote:
| These are usually pretty small spaces. So heating them
| isn't that much of an problem. And going from 22 to 80 for
| a few hours a week or day isn't too wasteful.
|
| Hot tubs are also rather small.
| cromulent wrote:
| Yeah, but wood-heated right, and emptied before it goes
| solid.
| burmanm wrote:
| No, a lot of saunas in Finland are electric heated. But
| they're still only 3*16A at most (and usually a lot less,
| but that depends on the size of the sauna). I think mine
| is ~7kW and still heats the sauna to high temperatures,
| just takes a bit more time.
|
| I still don't get though, if living in rural area, why
| not heat the pool with wood. It just has that sensation
| that electric heater doesn't provide.
| mediaman wrote:
| Is this for a wood-construction sauna with a heater
| warming up rocks that you can steam water off of? That's
| a lot less mass to warm up, mostly air, and a lot less
| ongoing energy loss than a big heated pool.
| zrail wrote:
| My house has 350A split across two meters because we have a
| ground source heat pump which has a special electric rate. I
| don't think we ever actually use that much power.
| skeletal88 wrote:
| Where I live we have to pay to the electric grid for the
| amps on the main breaker. Because the grid has to be able
| to provide those, needs to be planned accordingly, needs to
| have the proper diameter cables and transformers, etc. Even
| if we don't use them. So having 300A "just in case we need
| it" would be insanely expensive on the monthly bill. This
| amount of apmeres is more like for a workshop, small
| industrial or office building
| mediaman wrote:
| Many utilities will do this based not on the amperage to
| the house but the peak kw used in a billing cycle - a
| capacity charge. This helps incentivize reduced peak
| usage. In your scenario it's strange because you have
| zero incentive to keep your maximum usage below the
| breaker amount, other than the per-kwh cost.
| wernerb wrote:
| I live in the same such country with such rules. They
| assume rightly that if you request that amperage you will
| use it and they will plan and bill you to handle it. And
| yes we then also pay per kWh :)
|
| Why would it be harmful to run at the amperage that I'm
| buying ? What disincentives do I need?
| MisterTea wrote:
| Since our voltage is 120/240 volt split phase or 120/208 open Y
| service (less common) we tend to need higher currents for main
| breakers/fuses. The old standard for a home was 100 amps
| whereas modern homes are built with 200 amp mains. I suppose
| the low cost of air conditioning and heat pumps has raised this
| demand. Otherwise our lighting and appliance loads have become
| more efficient.
|
| A 230/400V open Y service at 25 amps is just 10kW which to me
| sounds like an old standard or mains for a small 1-2br
| apartment. I'd expect at least a 50-60A service. Though I know
| some (many?) homes in EU are on actual 3 phase so 25A at 400V 3
| phase becomes 17.3kW which is not far from the 24kW a 100A
| 120/240 service provides. Still anemic but quite a bit of power
| for a 1-4 person household living modestly. Though in the USA
| it seems utilities make residential 3 phase difficult or
| impossible to obtain as you might do commercial stuff with that
| electric without paying commercial rates or your neighborhood
| is served by a single phase feeder.
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| My impression is that in many European countries much lower
| supply ratings are normal (like 25A, I think I've even seen
| 17A on an apartment with A/C!) and it's just sort of accepted
| that you will trip the main breaker if you run too many
| things at once. In the US tripping the main breaker would be
| a pretty crazy occurrence, we seem to always spec in order to
| make that very difficult to do. I wonder if one difference is
| the safety margin applied considering the long trip time for
| breakers in a light overload condition... if you have say
| 100A service you could pull 150A for a decently long time
| before the main trips, perhaps for the runtime of some
| appliances, and over time that could lead to heat problems.
| MisterTea wrote:
| > if you have say 100A service you could pull 150A for a
| decently long time before the main trips, perhaps for the
| runtime of some appliances, and over time that could lead
| to heat problems.
|
| Depends on the trip curve and the age of the overcurrent
| device. Looking at the trip curve for a Fuji BW250 (125-250
| amp frame size), at 150% the device will trip in what looks
| like 5-30 minutes. Any load over 10x rated current is an
| instant trip.
|
| There was a scandal many years ago where an electrical
| equipment manufacturer, Federal Pacific, was caught rigging
| its testing machines to pass faulty or poorly performing
| circuit breakers. It was found that some of those breakers
| would carry 150%+ rated current without tripping. They were
| responsible for quite a few electrical fires and were sued
| into oblivion.
| nostromo wrote:
| A heated pool for a single-family home in the wilderness seems
| particularly decadent and indulgent.
|
| It looks like they wanted a California house, with flat a roof
| and giant windows, in the Canadian Wilderness. But there's a
| reason houses in the mountains look the way they do. This house
| looks as out-of-place as a ski chalet would on the beach in San
| Diego. In any case, it looks as if they have enough money not
| to care.
| dleslie wrote:
| In Pemberton, no less. An outdoor pool, _very_ large windows,
| open/not-enclosed outdoor patios, etc etc. They've basically
| planned to heat the outdoors when it is below 0C a few months
| out of the year; and most of the year it's below 18C. And all
| that exposed, non-insulated concrete. The thermal mass they
| have to heat is practically unbounded. Bonkers.
|
| They're going to have a hell of the time with the weathering
| on that siding and roof in 10y, too.
| cromulent wrote:
| Single-glazed windows, by the look of it. I was expecting
| triple.
| dleslie wrote:
| ... Yuuup.
|
| I knew a person who tried to put in triple-glaze, in New
| Westminster, BC, and it took a special lien on the
| property along with special approval from the Province
| because they weren't allowed by the building codes at the
| time.
|
| That was ~10y ago, so maybe it's changed now.
| hinkley wrote:
| Edit: I saw someone else building a cabin with similar
| windows recently. They are double pane, they are just
| some sort of frameless unit, held together by the strip
| of black material around the edge. Whether they work
| probably comes down to how well the installer seals
| around the edge of the window.
|
| And while the sliding glass doors look like they are
| single paned, look at the quadruple reflection. Isn't
| that usually caused by multiple sheets of glass in close
| proximity?
|
| The external framing is also 2x6, so someone was thinking
| about insulation. I think it's just that after declaring
| victory on a well insulated house they then decided to
| heat the outdoors anyway by directly heating things that
| are out of doors.
| hinkley wrote:
| Only if it doesn't burn down first in a forest fire.
| dahfizz wrote:
| Are there forest fires as far north as Vancouver? It gets
| wet & cold up there. I though forest fires was mostly a
| California problem.
| dleslie wrote:
| Oh yes, yes there are.
|
| Millions of hectares burn down every year:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_British_Columbia_wildf
| ire...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_British_Columbia_wildf
| ire...
|
| Last year an entire town disappeared:
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-
| sept-7-2...
| dahfizz wrote:
| Dang, what makes the west coast so prone to burning? I've
| lived on the east coast all my life and have never
| encountered a wild fire. The biggest fires we get are
| ~1000 acres[1], and easily contained.
|
| [1] https://www.providencejournal.com/story/news/2021/05/
| 17/larg...
| hinkley wrote:
| Oregon was on fire most of 2020.
|
| And the pine beetles are doing a number on BC. It's only
| a matter of time before those catch on fire.
| Mikeb85 wrote:
| I'm just laughing at a flat roof in Pemberton... It's a
| pretty ridiculous house.
| folkrav wrote:
| Snow removal must be... fun.
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| I can't believe no one at any step of the process gave
| them a warning about flat roofs, huge glass windows,
| having a pool, etc. in frigid mountain areas with tons of
| snow. I feel like there must be a lot more to this story,
| like cycling through different architects and engineers
| until one would finally not tell them the idea was
| bonkers.
| nostromo wrote:
| A flat _green_ roof. Which is much worse than just a flat
| roof.
|
| The drainage will clog and they'll risk having a leaky
| roof every spring. And you can't get up there with a snow
| shovel because it's a green roof and you'd scrape off all
| the dirt and plants.
| bduerst wrote:
| It's also weirdly not mentioned in the article - the lack
| of any of this type of feedback, especially considering
| it's about building a home _in the Canadian woods_.
|
| (Love your username, btw)
| OxO4 wrote:
| Not defending the other design choices, but there are
| places in snowy mountain areas where (almost) flat roofs
| are common [0].
|
| [0] https://www.davos.ch/en/information/portrait-
| image/storybook...
| bduerst wrote:
| Seems like the flat roofs in Davos were a conscious
| decision to safeguard against avalanches.
| downrightmike wrote:
| There are highly efficient heat pump powered water heaters,
| going out anywhere remote, these and other heat pump systems
| should really be used. This is a really great overview
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto&t=1840s
| exhilaration wrote:
| I knew that was a Technology Connections video before
| clicking on it :)
| tejohnso wrote:
| The size and extravagance of this thing is rather off-putting.
| I was expecting a modest off grid passive house.
| lstodd wrote:
| Top-to-bottom windows all over and narrow spaces .. it's
| actually amazing they fit it in 100KVA. This thing in winter
| would need about twice that just to not freeze. Hence the
| propane, and forget the tub and the pool.
| lambdasquirrel wrote:
| There are probably other ways to build a modern-style home
| that don't involve this, but they currently aren't in vogue.
|
| To which end, I wonder how long such a home would last, given
| the upkeep. The bling times come and go. Just look at
| history.
| 83 wrote:
| They might not have to worry about longevity, having built
| a home densely surrounded by trees in a wildfire prone
| area.
| lstodd wrote:
| > I wonder how long such a home would last
|
| 3-5 years at most I think. I've seen futile attempts to
| sell such experiments.
|
| After that time it's just easier to bulldoze or burn it,
| and then build something more sensible.
| Tempest1981 wrote:
| Maybe they want to supercharge 2 or 3 EVs at once.
| nkurz wrote:
| It strikes me as high too, but it's possible that he needed
| more than a 200A 240V main panel to meet code for his very
| large solar panel system. In the US (I don't know about Canada
| where the house is) there is a 120% rule, which limits the
| amount of electricity that the solar panel is allowed to feed
| into the panel: https://unboundsolar.com/blog/electrical-panel-
| requirements-....
|
| The idea is that you don't want more energy in the panel than
| the panel is designed to handle. Practically (if I understand
| it right) this means that the breaker for the solar panels is
| limited to 20% of the panel rating. A 200A 240V panel would
| limit you to a 40A 240V breaker, which (according to the link
| above) means a maximum of 7.6kW of backfeed solar.
|
| In the article, he says he has a 11.6kW solar array, which
| would require (if I'm calculating right) at least a 60A 240V
| breaker (maybe plus some required overcapacity?). Since this
| isn't allowed on a 200A panel, he may have needed to bump up to
| the next largest size of 400A unless he wanted to go smaller on
| the solar array. So while it sounds like overkill, it's
| possible there is more reason for it than just a desire to heat
| his wife's outdoor pool in the winter.
| petters wrote:
| I have 3*25A in a relatively old, three-story house in Sweden.
| Heated with a heat pump. I assumed 400A was a typo but
| apparently not? I guess it makes sense considering the heating
| of the pool, the large surface area and maybe an EV.
| intrepidhero wrote:
| I'm from the US and I was shocked they needed 400A plus
| propane. We draw more current then you guys because our voltage
| is lower but still, 200A services are pretty standard for large
| rural homes.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| It's 400A at 240v, so, no, it's not more current than in the
| EU where most domestic loads are 230v.
| [deleted]
| danans wrote:
| > I was shocked they needed 400A
|
| Seconded. I recently completed an all electric high
| performance remodel, and with 200A service, I can power a
| heat pump, heat pump water heater, all electric kitchen and
| laundry, and an EV charger, with Amps to spare. This is in
| the mild Bay Area, and my heat pump draws about 6A (15A
| breaker). The largest loads are EV and cooktop/stove.
|
| A 3000sqft custom house built to high performance standards
| (airtight and well insulated) can be space heated in a cold
| climate with a heat pump that draws no more than 24A (40A
| breaker) using a heat pump. At that load a modern heat pump
| will make 40kBTU of heat. There are many examples of this
| across Canada.
|
| I just now read that they have an outdoor heated pool,
| though, so crazy as it sounds they are presumably using
| electricity to heat it.
|
| > plus propane.
|
| Apart from backup water heating when the power goes out,
| their hot tub will waste huge amounts of energy, so propane
| might be operationally cheaper than electricity.
| wrycoder wrote:
| I'm running a small hot tub in central New Hampshire. I
| figure it costs me $15 per month in the winter.
|
| Edit: Service in the US is generally 200A or 400A. I'd say
| 400A is overbuilt for what they have, but that doesn't mean
| they actually use much of that capacity.
|
| For example, I average 1000 kWh per month, which is about
| 1.39 kW 24/7, or 12 amps average on my 200A service. The
| 200A is to have headroom for peak demands, and we probably
| never get close to 200A.
|
| If I were to rewire my panel (it's full), I'd go for the
| 400A - it's just heavier copper in the three lines to the
| entrance panel. That would not increase my monthly power
| bill right now, but it would provide lots of excess
| capacity in case I want to switch to heat pumps and
| electric vehicles.
|
| Since we heat with wood and propane and don't use
| electricity for either and have mostly LED lighting and a
| gas stove, I do wonder where all the power is going,
| especially at night. Too many computers, I guess. Add
| analysis to my to-do list!
| rhacker wrote:
| It's funny how removed we are from reality. Even if
| $15/month might be cheaper than a propane bill, it would
| be far far more expensive against the planet to heat it
| with gas/coal burned at a factory 100 miles away,
| converted to electricity, then converted back to heat
| inside the spa water heater.
| wrycoder wrote:
| I think that an air/water heat pump on the tub, with say
| a COP of 8, would be less expensive to operate than
| propane or straight electric. But, I couldn't justify the
| capital expense. (Small hot tubs are electric.)
|
| I like my wood/propane mix for heating, because it's
| immune to power outages. At some point I'll get too old
| to cut/split/haul wood, though, and will have to figure
| something else out.
|
| I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas cooking
| in favor of electricity. Perhaps some people are
| concerned with methane leaks in the natural gas
| distribution system.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| > I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas
| cooking in favor of electricity. Perhaps some people are
| concerned with methane leaks in the natural gas
| distribution system.
|
| It's that, as well as the fact that having a gas stove
| means you have a gas hookup in the first place, so you're
| more likely to also use it for heating. That in turn
| leads to more emissions than other heating methods
| produce.
| wrycoder wrote:
| Well, even with a catalyst, my wood stove puts out a lot
| of emissions. But, I don't live in an area with an
| inversion layer.
| nybble41 wrote:
| > Small hot tubs are electric.
|
| -Specifically, for those who weren't aware, small hot
| tubs are typically heated through friction and waste heat
| from the circulation pumps and don't have dedicated water
| heaters. You could add a separate, more efficient, water
| heater and run the pumps less often, but it's not as
| simple as replacing one kind of heater with another.-
|
| _Never mind. Apparently I was misinformed. The
| circulation pump moves the water through the heater, but
| isn 't the primary heat source._
| nkurz wrote:
| I don't think this is true. Could you source this? I've
| had several small outdoor electric hot tubs, and all of
| them have had dedicated heaters. The couple times I've
| had problems with the heater, the symptoms involved the
| pump running constantly and the tub never reaching temp.
| I'm sure there is some friction heating, but I don't
| think it's anywhere near enough to reach standard
| temperature.
| sbradford26 wrote:
| So in NH I am paying just over $4.20 a gallon for propane
| and about $0.18 a kwh for electricity. With those prices
| a propane heater for my hot tub would cost more to run.
| Also a heat pump heater for the hot tub would
| optimistically get around a 3-4 COP in warmer weather and
| 2-3 in the colder weather but either of those would lower
| your price to heat it considerably but the capital
| expenses neglect those savings.
|
| Source: https://www.amsenergy.com/fuel-cost-calculator/
| danans wrote:
| > I'm not sure why there's a push to eliminate gas
| cooking in favor of electricity.
|
| It can make a lot of sense in urban areas. In addition to
| removing the methane leaks (with their high GWP), it
| reduces the need to install/maintain expensive natural
| gas distribution infrastructure, and also improves indoor
| air quality by eliminating NO2 and CO production within
| the house. If the power goes out, you just use a propane
| grill in the backyard, or a small butane stove.
| danans wrote:
| NH electric rates are $.20/kWh [1]. If you are spending
| $15/month for heating the hot tub, then you are consuming
| ($15/month)/($.20/kWh)=75kWh/month to heat it.
|
| Assuming you are using are using a resistance heater
| (100% heating efficiency), to raise 200Gal of water
| (typical small hot tub size) from 50F to 100F requires
| about 25kWh of energy.
|
| To only use 75kWh/month (255kBTU), you would need to only
| raise it to 100F less than 3 times a month, and that
| assumes that the water temp doesn't naturally drop below
| 50F (unlikely in NH).
|
| It's likely you are spending significantly more than
| $15/month to heat it with electricity.
|
| Propane is about $30/MBTU, which would work out to about
| $9/month for the equivalent amount of heat.
|
| 1. https://www.electricrate.com/residential-rates/new-
| hampshire...
|
| 2. https://bloglocation.com/art/water-heating-calculator-
| for-ti...
| wrycoder wrote:
| I pay $0.13 per kWh in my town. (That's my marginal
| cost.)
|
| The tub is well insulated, with an insulated cover, so
| you need to account for that. My estimate on the hot tub
| cost is by comparing my kWh usage after the tub was
| installed to the prior year use.
|
| Most small tubs are electric, like mine.
| danans wrote:
| > I pay $0.13 per kWh in my town.
|
| So assuming $15/month, you are using 115kWh, which is
| 392kBTU of heating energy. It takes about 83kBTU to heat
| 200gal of water from 50F to 100F, which would be like 5
| full heat ups from 50F. Of course there are the other
| convolved factors you mentioned (insulation).
| wrycoder wrote:
| Believe me, it's worth $15 per month to my wife! So
| happy.
| jcelerier wrote:
| reading this as a french, this is wild. AFAIK you can't
| even get more than 136A as an individual, you need to
| operate a company (if my calculation is correct - max. for
| individuals is 15kVa AFAIK). Huge majority is 6kVa / 230V
| => ~26A
| [deleted]
| sokoloff wrote:
| > they have an outdoor heated pool, though, so crazy as it
| sounds they are presumably using electricity to heat it.
|
| That's an almost ideal case for an air-to-water heat pump
| though, the heat capacity and efficiency of which go up as
| the output water temperature goes down. Pool heating (and
| snow melting) are ideal use cases that can support a very
| low output water temperature and still get the job done (as
| compared to baseboard or cast-iron radiator space heating).
| Scoundreller wrote:
| My thought is that power can go out for days at a time after
| a big storm, so propane is mostly a backup electricity/aux
| heat source.
|
| Maybe they have a heat pump setup which switches to propane
| when it gets really cold.
|
| Wood is there, but somebody needs to feed it. And people
| inevitably get old or lazy about it and depend more and more
| on the convenient heat sources available.
| second--shift wrote:
| as a heads-up, most electrical mains in the USA are 240v;
| they are wired two circuits in series for most residential
| applications. But you'll find a 240v plug in most homes; it's
| the industrial heavy-duty looking plug.
| StillBored wrote:
| And 100A isn't unusual, particularly for anything built more
| than 20 years ago.
| cbm-vic-20 wrote:
| My 100 year old house in the US has 100A service- though
| I'm thinking of upgrading to 200A service to help with
| Level 2 EV charging.
| DrPhish wrote:
| True. For comparison, I have a 60s era 1000sqft house in
| northern Canada that had a 60A service into a 50A breaker
| panel up until last year. For insurance, safety and
| maintenance reasons[0] we upgraded to a 200A service, but
| for a small house and a 3-4 person family 50A is sufficient
| provided your hot water heater is natural gas.
|
| [0]: The incoming line was aerial and over the legal span
| length, so it had been attached to an insulator nailed to a
| tree halfway between the house and mast. Also the mast was
| deteriorating to the point that it needed to be replaced
| anyways and insurance was making noise about not allowing a
| new policy if it wasn't upgraded to at least 120A. We did a
| customer pole and went underground to the house. Much nicer
| aesthetics and I can now turn off a breaker on my side of
| the meter at the pole to do maintenance.
| [deleted]
| b4st1en wrote:
| I had the same reaction (European too). If it's in Canada the
| supply voltage is 120V, so roughly half what we have in Europe,
| apples-to-apples it's comparable to 200A in Europe.
|
| Still, it's a very high amount of power (48kW) that would not
| even be subscriptable in France for a consumer (the max is
| 36kW).
| EricE wrote:
| 240v is delivered to homes on two legs - the legs are split
| to make 120v circuits for lighting and wall plugs. 240v
| circuits with both legs are common for things with a large
| draw such as HVAC, electric water heaters, electric
| stoves/ovens, electric dryers, etc.
|
| Remember, they didn't want fossil fuels - if you are going
| all electric, especially for heating (in CANDADA!) you are
| going to pull some wattage.
|
| That big outdoor pool - in CANADA - doesn't help either.
| xyzzyz wrote:
| Supply is 240V in North America. You probably have multiple
| 240V circuits at your home, typically for electric range,
| oven, and clothes dryer at least. It is split into two for
| regular outlets and lighting.
| perceptronas wrote:
| Very interesting. Here in EU houses usually have three
| phases @ ~380V, where each phase is ~220V.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| US residential service is split phase 120/240, US
| commercial service is generally 120/208v three-phase or
| 277/480v three-phase.
| kccqzy wrote:
| I also did. Another ridiculous thing was that the article
| initially claimed no fossil fuels, but the one thing they
| couldn't live without was wood-burning fireplaces. I mean don't
| they both generate large amounts of carbon dioxide?
| mbrevoort wrote:
| Just because you prudently plan for 400A of peak capacity
| doesn't mean you would actually come anywhere near using it at
| any given time. Part of building a house in the woods is
| planning for contingencies.
| bick_nyers wrote:
| It's 400A peak usage, not average. Different decisions could
| have been made to lower that peak load considerably. As another
| commenter mentioned, swapping out the tankless water heater
| which can trip a standard house's electrical connection all on
| its own.
| lcvw wrote:
| 400A is an absurd number. I live in the northeast have a heated
| pool, electric water heater, and am putting in heat pumps and
| it all runs off a 200A. 100A is the standard hookup in my area.
| I have no idea what this person is doing (are they heating the
| pool in winter??) but those numbers are absurd. Also a propane
| pool heater is far cheaper then electric, converting propane to
| electricity is really crazy when you could just have propane
| heat, hot water, and pool heater.
| glxxyz wrote:
| My rural home never uses more than 4kW (and even that's
| rare), so under 20 amps. I can't imagine needing 400A supply
| without building a machine shop or something.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| As someone who lives in the US, yes, 400A is insane.
| mbrevoort wrote:
| Using 400A consistently would be insane. Building the
| capacity to support 400A but using much, much less on average
| is... prudent, especially when building a house that is
| remote.
| mholm wrote:
| It's entirely reasonable if they have a tankless water heater
| + electric heat. The amount of powerdraw that can be required
| during a shower means I would trip a 200A circuit during the
| winter. Average powerdraw would certainly be much lower, but
| you have to prepare for the peaks. Adding in an electric pool
| heater, more square footage to heat, and probably a fancy
| electric range, means you could hit 400A somewhat easily if
| you aren't being careful.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| In a newly built 2500sqft house you should need a lot less
| than 200A for this, it should have almost perfect
| insulation.
|
| That, and tankless water heater are stupid, frankly.
| briHass wrote:
| Nobody should be running electric heat (resistance heat,
| COP=1), since we now have heat pump technology that can
| operate below 0F and do so with COPs of at least 2.
| Electric tankless WHs are also a terrible idea in almost
| all cases. A HPWH or standard electric tank would be much
| better for overall power demand.
| yawnxyz wrote:
| whoa that is a mansion, not a "modern home"
|
| I had the opportunity to stay very nice place up in BC last
| summer -- at the price of constant fear that we might need to hop
| in the car and leave everything behind at any second. And this
| was in a fairly big town (Kelowna).
|
| I can't imagine what the risks are for living in a place like
| this is...
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Were you concerned about fire?
| dboat wrote:
| Yes, everyone in the region was (I live near Kelowna). BC
| Wildfires last year were apocalyptic.
| mwest217 wrote:
| Pemberton (where this home is located) is _much_ wetter
| than Kelowna, so I think it 's less of an issue. It's
| similar to the difference in Washington between the west
| slope of the North Cascades (such as Mt Baker, which holds
| the worldwide single season snowfall record) and the east
| slope of the North Cascades, which are dry and have large
| wildfire seasons.
| 1auralynn wrote:
| Pretty sure they mean "modern" as in the architectural style.
| Like "Victorian"
| jacquesm wrote:
| The carbon footprint of this individual is off the scale. He's
| got a funny idea of what 'low impact' means. Low impact is a well
| insulated residential flat. This is extreme impact.
| xienze wrote:
| He probably figures hey, I've got solar and I'm paying extra
| for hydro power, so I'm more carbon-neutral than you are!
| runjake wrote:
| I did not know software engineers could get this rich. It seems
| outlandish. That house must have cost a fortune. Or am I just way
| under-paid compared to the rest of you?
|
| Also, who checked off on the flat roofs in that location?
| brailsafe wrote:
| Would be nice if they were a little more transparent about
| these numbers instead of being incredibly vague. Salaries in
| Vancouver have not kept up with housing costs.
| taintlaurent wrote:
| thex10 wrote:
| > Geothermal wasn't viable on the slope and with the space we had
| to work with, so we switched to an air source heat pump for
| exchange. The bigger issue was that the energy demands for the
| house, which included hot water heating for the pool and hot tub,
| outstripped the electrical supply we could get on a rural
| residential build: 400A. We eventually settled on supplementing
| our electrical generation with propane, which we had hoped to
| avoid. High-efficiency electrically powered water boilers and
| other mechanical systems are more advanced in Europe, but we
| found that subcontractors were wary of importing anything
| unfamiliar (and unrated for North America) and prefered to use
| gas.
|
| Huh, as someone who wants one day to build a passive house to
| live in, this is all very interesting. Sounds like they're not
| getting quite as modern of a home as they wanted.
| Aeolun wrote:
| 400A?!
|
| My house can make do with 60A, and my previous one with 40A
|
| Do they use 350A to heat a swimming pool? Talk about a waste of
| energy.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| When they say 'Developed' nations are the major CO2 emission
| contributors per capita due to their unsustainable lifestyle
| I think of this graph:
|
| https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/co-emissions-per-
| capita?t...
|
| The split is almost bi-modal, not pointing fingers but this
| bundling seems a little bit of an unfair generalization, not
| all nations pollute alike.
| jakewins wrote:
| Are you in EU? Recall North America uses 120VAC, so a 400A
| service is equivalent to 200A in the EU
| danachow wrote:
| Most residential electrical service in the US is 200A or
| well below that. Especially if you have a place with gas
| heat, hot water, dryer, range you do not need that much.
| But even with electric appliances and a typical pool
| heater, 200A is plenty.
|
| 400A service in the US is the purview of the very wealthy
| for their Taj Mahals - which is obviously overrepresented
| here - but that's a fucking distorted view point if you
| think it's the norm.
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| NA uses 120VAC at most loads - but service is 240V split.
| So 200A service in NA is the same as 200A in the EU. Of
| course this is confusing since we often talk about 120V
| loads, e.g. a 15A electric kettle in the US is pretty lame
| compared to a 15A electric kettle in the UK.
|
| The 120V outlets are approximately equally split between
| the two legs (which you could view as -120 to 0 and 0 to
| +120), so one way you could view it is that 200A service in
| NA allows for about 400A of 120V load. But then larger
| loads are usually across both legs and you have to account
| for imbalance so it doesn't work out quite that simply. And
| then there are "weird load" like dryers, which commonly put
| the heating element across both legs but the drum and
| blower motors across only one, resulting in some amps on
| both legs and some more amps on only one of them.
|
| And while we're at it commercial buildings often run the
| lighting across both legs for wire gauge economy. So
| there's a lot of nuance on the load side. But on the supply
| side it's all 240V either way (well, kind of, could be 208V
| in case of a wye supply, but that's not common).
| jaclaz wrote:
| But 200A in EU is roughly 44-50 kW, a common contract for a
| flat (here in Italy) is 3 kW, if you have a heat pump
| and/or conditioner it goes to 4.5 or 9 kW.
|
| I have seen (largish) villas with 20 or 25 kW, but
| everything more than that - like 100 A or so - is
| definitely beyond common use.
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| >3 kW
|
| So kettle + oven and you blow your fuses?
| EricE wrote:
| NA Houses still get 240 delivered to them - so yeah, 400A
| is huge.
| hinkley wrote:
| One space heater is 12-15 amps. I can't count how many people
| I've had to explain that to as they scratched their heads why
| they keep tripping the circuit breaker in the winter.
|
| Also lesser know fact: A circuit breaker doesn't cut off at
| the rated amperage. It cuts off when it spikes above that
| amperage. When the current is steady, you can blow past the
| limit, but one little wobble and it will finally trip. "I
| wasn't doing anything different" being a common refrain. A
| little ripple from the city power or the other end of the
| house can push it over.
| astockwell wrote:
| To all the questions about including costs, the only blog I've
| ever come across that was transparent and honest about costs of
| building a custom home was Mike Davidson in
| http://ahousebythepark.com/journal/
|
| Granted this was 2010-2012 on a super-desirable WA plot, and
| inflation has probably 2-3x'ed, but still, it's a very
| interesting read and a good model for how to disclose costs and
| still maintain a modicum of humility.
| anm89 wrote:
| This is a dream of mine.
|
| I recently started talking to architects about getting started on
| the design process of a similar but smaller and simpler home and
| I was blown away by how much more expensive it was to build a
| home of this quality than what I'd been reading online.
|
| It looks like as of 2022, you are looking at about probably
| $600-800/sqft to build something like this for my smaller simpler
| version. Potentially over $1000 / sqft to match the quality in
| the post
| StillBored wrote:
| Hard to call it modern with those kinds of energy demands. I'm on
| a similar path, but a large part of the plan is to have a minimal
| footprint. I have access to a community well and electricity, but
| the goal to make it self sufficient enough to be off grid, while
| maintaining a reasonable lifestyle. So instead of a heated
| pool/etc the money would be going into solar arrays and batteries
| and a well.
|
| Plus, pools suck, sure its a lot of fun for the kids a few weeks
| of the year, but they tend to sit unused most of the time, while
| consuming electricity, chemicals, etc. I have a heater that broke
| a few years ago, and i haven't bothered to fix it because getting
| out of an outdoor heated pool when its 60F or colder just isn't
| something most people enjoy. So I just stopped heating it long
| before it broke.
| [deleted]
| mizay7 wrote:
| Always intrigued by this idea. But the thing that I never see
| addressed in these discussions: what's the plan for schooling?
| just do small local rural schools? do online supplementation?
| This is the sticking point that keeps me from going far down this
| path.
| greedo wrote:
| My kids are grown, but when I think of building in the
| woods/mountains, I'm now thinking of medical services.
| Ekaros wrote:
| I would also think about services in general. Then again I
| suppose that as European my travel tolerances are much lower.
| ziggus wrote:
| It appears that this is a second home, not their primary
| residence.
| alfor wrote:
| The form is incredibly inefficient. It look a bit like design
| magazine, but the price you pay for that is incredible. Look at
| the surface area of exterior walls and roofs compared to the
| inside volume! A design like a four square would probably cost
| 1/3-1/2 of this for the same volume and be way easier to heat.
| dleslie wrote:
| We recently moved from Vancouver to the Island; and made a
| similar calculus about locations at which to live. I have a
| friend who ended up with 160+ acres in the interior, whereas I've
| settled on a quarter acre on the central island. There's a reason
| for this difference...
|
| What's I found _conspicuously_ absent from the author's
| considerations was anything at all regarding their children.
| Elementary schools, family doctors, even the local density of
| children near to their age.
|
| Houses in the woods are lovely for a family to visit for some of
| the year, and are lovely for reclusive adults; but they severely
| restrict the opportunities to fulfill the needs of children.
| slingnow wrote:
| Can someone please retitle this to "Building a multi-million
| dollar mansion in the woods"? "Modern home" makes it sound quaint
| and interesting. Instead this is just someone throwing a lot of
| money at a giant dwelling.
| sdflhasjd wrote:
| Yes, I was hoping for something more insightful around DIY,
| costs and sustainability. Instead it's an article with some
| nice pictures that mostly boils down to "pay someone else to do
| it" and I almost laughed when I got to the bit where they were
| using too much electricity and their solution is just to burn
| more gas :/
| blakesterz wrote:
| Cool story! I didn't notice it in there, maybe I just missed it,
| I would be worried about animals getting in the house, I wonder
| if they designed it to be animal proof? Being up in the woods
| there, the house must be under constant attack from the woodland
| creatures.
|
| Animals being anything from bees and ants and assorted bugs to
| squirrels and chipmunks and maybe bears. I have a SMALL woods
| behind my house and find all of those things have ways to get in
| without being invited way more often than I like. (Not bears)
| codingdave wrote:
| I had fears of that when we moved into our house surrounded not
| only by woods, but wetlands and farm fields. We were pleasantly
| surprised how little problems we've had from creatures. We do
| see animals of all kinds wandering on the property - deer,
| squirrels, rabbits, racoons, opossum, coyotes, owls, hawks,
| eagles... you name it. The tracks in the winter are even more
| evidence that we are surrounded by wildlife. But they honestly
| aren't a problem. They leave the home alone. We have had one
| mouse in our first year here. A few ants and flies last summer.
| Honestly, we had bigger problems in the city. My only guess is
| that there is such a strong natural ecosystem here that they
| simply don't need anything from our home, so they are just as
| happy to leave it to us humans.
| cableshaft wrote:
| I live in a suburban city and I've had all of those either in
| our backyard or just beyond our back yard over the past
| couple of years (except the eagles). Squirrels, rabbits, an
| opossum, a skunk, mice, owls, hawks, toads have all been in
| our backyard before. Deer and coyotes just beyond our back
| fence. Raccoons I've seen in the neighborhood but not from
| our backyard. A couple times now I've taken pictures of hawks
| chilling on our back patio. I have a bird feeder so the birds
| might attract it.
|
| The dogs freak out whenever I inadvertently let them out with
| animals in the back yard (happened with the skunk and
| opossum), so I've had to rush out and put myself in between
| them and the animals to keep them from possibly getting
| attacked or attacking they animals (they did get skunked).
|
| We have a tall fence and do our best to repair holes and
| gaps, but it doesn't seem to matter much except keep deer and
| coyotes out of our yard (at least so far).
| ttul wrote:
| The Pemberton area is besieged by grizzly and black bears
| constantly. It is a lovely part of the world, and somewhat
| terrifying.
| [deleted]
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Well, not right now in the dead of winter, no.
| chimen wrote:
| What's modern about that house? Ridiculous amount of electricity
| required, flat roof in an area where snow is expected for a big
| portion of the year, heated outside pool, very remote but VERY
| dependant on electricity, internet and TV must be fun. It all
| starts kicking in pretty fast once you move in and realise your
| kids grow up alone because there's nobody in their age group for
| miles, no days when you feel like doing nothing (especially in
| the winter), no way your kids can play outside (in the
| wilderness) unsupervised, no way can they play outside when it's
| darker - so many WTF's and ifs there.
|
| That's something I would build when I retire and grow sick of the
| world. Even asylums can be "modern" I'll give you that.
| ilamont wrote:
| I was thinking about the kids, too. Children need real and
| regular contact with classmates and peers, as the pandemic has
| demonstrated. Having a luxe bedroom and a heated pool in the
| middle of the wilderness doesn't make up for extended periods
| of loneliness and isolation.
| cols wrote:
| Beautiful house and there was a day I would have been extremely
| jealous but...
|
| I live in Oregon and in 2020 chose to (was not officially in an
| evac zone but the smoke was awful) evacuate when the horrible
| Beachie Creek and Lionshead [0] fires ripped through the Santiam
| Canyon. Houses that my wife and I had looked at possibly
| purchasing were torched, as well as some of the most pristine
| ancient forest I've seen [1].
|
| My outlook about living in the forest drastically changed after
| these events. The Beachie Creek fire reached 130,000 acres
| overnight at a growth rate of 2.77 acres per SECOND. [2].
|
| You couldn't pay me enough money to live in a forest at this
| point. It's just too damn dangerous. Also, the flat roof seems
| problematic. Everyone I know in the PNW who has owned a flat roof
| has had issues with it due to pooling water. That far north, I
| imagine snow accumulation would also be a really big problem in
| terms of stress on the roof.
|
| [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiam_Fire
|
| [1] - https://www.opb.org/article/2021/09/02/oregon-field-guide-
| op...
|
| [2] - https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/7001/
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Funny, I've actually considered buying property in that area
| now that it's been cleared of houses. With a bit of planning,
| it should be possible to make it more resistant to another
| wildfire roaring through. I'd still build myself a couple of
| contingency plans anyway, of course, and buy good insurance.
| cols wrote:
| Good luck to you! It is truly beautiful out there, even
| still. If you clear out an acre or two around your house and
| have some kind of fire line you'd probably be fine. I'd be
| concerned about the road to your house and how accessible it
| is to a major hwy.
|
| Several folks died after being trapped on North Fork Rd and
| it's not hard to see why. It's a super tight, two lane road
| that goes for miles and miles. After the fire started, there
| were apparently miles of treefall up and down the road. No
| way you get out from that even on a dirt bike.
| chris1993 wrote:
| Unfortunately even a clear couple of acres won't protect
| against ember attack. The house can be built to be fully
| fire-resistant and you're still faced with stay-or-go
| decisions when the next fire arrives.
| pbuzbee wrote:
| Yes, I'm also looking at buying a house in California, but I
| too am afraid to buy a home anywhere that could realistically
| burn in the next 10-30 years. It's a shame since it rules out
| many of the best (and more affordable) areas of the state.
| njarboe wrote:
| Almost everywhere in California could burn in the next 10-30
| years. Huge fires around LA every year. The Oakland hills
| fire burned down thousands of homes. Santa Rosa burned twice
| in three years. Santa Cruz, etc. Maybe somewhere in the
| central valley or the Mojave desert would meet your
| requirements.
| willidiots wrote:
| I live in the forest in rural norcal and everything you say
| rings true. We had a huge fire come within 3 miles of us last
| year. This year's obviously going to be just as bad given the
| prolonged dry winter. The neighborhood is aggressively managing
| the fire risk, yet it seems it'll never be enough.
|
| It can happen anywhere though. I have immediate family who lost
| their home to a fire last year - they lived in a town of 20,000
| people, among grasslands in the suburbs.
|
| IMHO California and PNW homes need to be rethought, starting
| now - much like how we stopped using unreinforced bricks due to
| earthquakes. Stop building houses out of flammable materials.
| Use intumescent coatings. Intentionally fireproof your
| landscaping. I was hoping that was the focus of this article
| but.. nope.
| GnarfGnarf wrote:
| Big Achilles Heel: plowing the road to clear the snow so you can
| get to the hospital when somebody's appendix is about to burst.
| rexreed wrote:
| There's a fetish for tiny homes, a fetish for semi-off-grid
| living, a fetish for impractical homes in impractical places.
| YouTube is full of these projects. Curiously many tiny homes and
| impractical off-grid home projects seem to be abandoned and turn
| into half-built or mostly-compromised results. I'd attach some
| links to those YouTube channels, but I don't want to send them
| any traffic because at this point it has become less about the
| home and more about the fetish.
| louis___ wrote:
| So sad to see a somewhat wild area got uglied with a shiny,
| propane-powered mansion. Poor birds will just fly away from this
| spot
| kgran wrote:
| Now imagine you're hiking in the woods and, all of a sudden, you
| reach a fence with a sign "PRIVATE PROPERTY NO TRESPASSING".
| Years go by and even more rich people build such homes in the
| woods. Now you're hiking in the woods, constantly passing through
| gravel roads leading to these properties and hearing traffic
| noise of a more major road where some cars from some of these
| houses went to fill the propane tank, buy food supplies or
| whatever.
| ttul wrote:
| TL;DR wealthy, privileged white couple in Canada build dream home
| in the woods thanks to extensive societal advantages which they
| enjoy.
|
| Film at nine.
| hackeraccount wrote:
| That's how I feel too but at least I'm disappointed in myself
| for that which manages to help me feel that I'm better then you
| which in turns makes me feel just a bit better about me. So,
| thanks.
| artursapek wrote:
| Sounds like you'd trade places with them if you could
| drenvuk wrote:
| I don't think this matters much at all though. It's a pretty
| cool house and it's not like their pov needs to match everyone
| else's. You could find interesting stuff here just like someone
| describing their perfect vanagon/compact apartment/log cabin.
| asjldkfin wrote:
| It's amazing how much bitterness and jealousy can be
| encapsulated in just one sentence. It's almost poetic.
| Splendor wrote:
| I guess we can file yours under "callous indifference".
| Someone complains about the societal issues that allow a
| couple to build a SECOND mansion like this in the woods while
| millions of people are homeless and your response is to paint
| them as "jealous".
| asjldkfin wrote:
| OP isn't complaining about societal issues; OP is trying to
| drag a couple just because they have demonstrated some
| modicum of success and happen to be "white".
|
| They literally mentioned nothing about societal issues,
| except the implicit racism in their assumption that
| whiteness somehow inherently detracts from people's
| accomplishments.
| Splendor wrote:
| > They literally mentioned nothing about societal issues
|
| I guess you missed the phrase "extensive societal
| advantages" in OP's comment.
| asjldkfin wrote:
| And that assumption is based off what?
| Splendor wrote:
| The fact that they can afford to build a second mansion
| while millions are homeless. It's a pretty simple
| equation.
| asjldkfin wrote:
| I don't see anything in OP's comment about second
| mansions or the homeless.
| greedo wrote:
| If you read TFA, you'll see that they own a townhome in
| Vancouver. This is a second home...
| asjldkfin wrote:
| We're not talking about TFA, we're talking about the OP's
| comment- which mentions literally nothing that Splendor
| is so worked up about.
| Splendor wrote:
| You've already changed your argument from "they never
| said anything about that" to "okay they said it but I
| think they were making assumptions". Log off. Go touch
| grass.
| asjldkfin wrote:
| By "go touch grass", I assume you're probably a younger
| person. You certainly have the reading comprehension of
| one.
|
| I'd re-read this thread carefully and then take a moment
| to consider: is this really a hill worth dying of
| embarrassment on? You can always just walk away.
| nekcihc wrote:
| White priviledge is not something that would be on my
| mind(for all I care, they could be black), but
| unsustainability, destruction of nature and self-
| righteousness to do so... I would really wonder why such
| article has appeared in HN, as it is going against current
| global social narrative and NH is not really far-right
| nutwings, but rather on the left-spectrum.
|
| IMO, modern home should leave as less impact on nature as
| possible - be it materials used to build it or energy
| demands to run that house.
| antisthenes wrote:
| That's just your interpretation of it.
|
| Where you see bitterness and jealousy, I just see
| indifference and light irony.
|
| Maybe you're the one projecting?
| asjldkfin wrote:
| The fact this is at the bottom of the comment pile would
| suggest your interpretation is unique
| antisthenes wrote:
| And the fact that there's a chain of other responders
| disagreeing with your take suggests that it isn't.
|
| Either way, I don't have a horse in this fight. You may
| as well be right in your assessment.
|
| The fact of the matter though is this - the original blog
| post is completely uninteresting. If you have wealth and
| money - you can pretty much build anything anywhere.
| There's nothing in that house that is a technological
| marvel/achievement or anything in its construction method
| that warrants unique news coverage on HN or elsewhere.
| gameman144 wrote:
| > Person's actions influenced by their circumstances
|
| This is a pretty reductive viewpoint, since literally _any_
| article or project could be seen in the same light.
|
| * _Of course_ you released a popular jazz album, you had
| parents who loved jazz and had an instrument at home.
|
| * _Of course_ you work in journalism, you lived in a city that
| took great pride in its news institutions.
|
| * _Of course_ you like programming, you had access to a
| computer and free time in your childhood.
|
| * _Of course_ you run a book review site, you had access to
| functional library systems growing up.
|
| * _Of course_ you are interested in politics, you were able to
| volunteer at local election campaigns.
|
| Like, if someone is building an expensive home, you would
| _obviously_ expect that their life experience has been such
| that they are able to build an expensive home. Likewise, if
| someone does _anything_ , then obviously their life experience
| has been such that they are able to do that thing.
|
| This is a cool writeup of a cool project, and reducing it to
| the fact that these people have been fortunate can come off as
| pretty smug.
| balutdev wrote:
| glxxyz wrote:
| I didn't build it but I live in a modern home in the woods. Just
| outside Toronto, surrounded by trees about 600 metres from the
| nearest road or house.
|
| Modern as in built 5 years ago but not a 'modern' design like the
| article. A flat roof without eaves looks great but is impractical
| in Canada. As well as protecting the walls and footings from
| rain, eaves allow the low winter sun to shine through the
| windows, but keep out the high summer sun (trees block the low
| summer sun for us).
|
| The only connected service we have is electricity, I'm planning
| to add a barn with solar panels on the roof so we may not need
| that soon.
| tuckerpo wrote:
| tl;dr have a lot of dosh.
| thecrumb wrote:
| This should be title 'Hiring someone else to build a modern home
| in the wood (if you have a lot of money)'
| Gravityloss wrote:
| Is there a post about the technology of the house? I'm interested
| especially in energy conservation technology like insulation,
| windows, heating solution, foundation etc...
| jfk13 wrote:
| I wouldn't necessarily look to someone who thinks their house
| needs a 400A power supply for energy conservation wisdom.
| tiku wrote:
| Wish I could do that in my country.. a piece of land is very
| expensive here if there is a permit to build a house on it.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Doesn't the author actually mean _postmodern_? "Modern home"
| architecture is from the early-mid 20th century.
|
| If you're looking to build a home, do yourself a favor and watch
| Essential Craftsman's Spec House series (https://www.youtube.com/
| watch?v=mn4L_aJ1rV4&list=PLRZePj70B4...). Your eyeballs will grow
| wider and wider with all the considerations, but you'll be better
| informed for it.
| gdubs wrote:
| Modern is usually referring to mid-20th century in terms of
| style. Post-modern doesn't include everything after that --
| it's kind of a mess to describe but probably the simplest
| explanation is that post-modernism is a reaction to modernism.
| It's a style full of visual puns, and structural manifestations
| of literary criticism.
|
| "Contemporary" is the more generic umbrella term for things
| that are modern with a lowercase "m".
|
| Of course, nobody agrees on what Postmodernism is so please
| feel free to tell me why I'm wrong :)
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| There's Modern, and then there's modern.
| tiborsaas wrote:
| Minimalistic or nordic would be a more accurate description. At
| least that how this style goes on Instagram, Pinterest and
| AliExpress :)
| nickhalfasleep wrote:
| 0 words about forest fires or preparing a defensible boundary and
| setback.
|
| Their insurance is going to be _fierce_.
| standeven wrote:
| Pemberton is quite rainy, so forest fires aren't a huge
| concern. Once you get to the other side of the Coastal
| mountains (the interior), fire is a much bigger concern.
| yawnxyz wrote:
| they don't need insurance, they could probably just build
| another one if the current one burns down...
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Is it a sunset or does one of the photos even show a raging
| fire on a mountain in the background?
| somethoughts wrote:
| The other thought that came to mind is if its a second home -
| how do you prevent squatters/random people from "enjoying" the
| house while you are away.
| intrepidhero wrote:
| And the house has wood siding with a _flat_ roof and _grass_
| growing on the roof! Yikes!
| milesvp wrote:
| Yeah, I saw those flat roofs, and talk of whistler, and
| thought what a nightmare. Peaked roofs exist for a reason. I
| wonder what their snow strategy is? Because one day of rain
| on top of several feet of snow causes severe structural
| strain if it can't just slide down.
| jannyfer wrote:
| The last photo is in snow...
|
| I wonder if they actively melt snow on the roof?!
| [deleted]
| qbasic_forever wrote:
| Would help explain the 400+ amps of electricity they pull
| from the grid.
| [deleted]
| wffurr wrote:
| Do they have to get up there (or rather does their
| groundsperson have to get up there) and mow the roof?
| balutdev wrote:
| treespace88 wrote:
| My thoughts as well. In the BC woods is only a question of when
| the next forest fire will come.
| anonAndOn wrote:
| A hot tub is easily super insulated, brominated and locked up but
| I'm pretty sure a heated outdoor pool in the mountains is going
| to end up costing him far more time and money than he budgeted
| for, especially if there are no pool services in the area.
| pmdulaney wrote:
| Simply beautiful! You -- and your children, especially -- will be
| completely different people as a result of living in that home.
| adamcharnock wrote:
| I've done this in Portugal, but on a smaller scale and pretty
| much with only my own labor. I purchased 6 hectares (15 acres)
| for mid-5-figures.
|
| I've built an A-frame studio house for around EUR10k (excl
| tools), and installed a 5kw solar system for about another
| EUR10k. The house has air conditioning and underfloor heating
| (water-based, heated using wood from the land).
|
| I've also brought a 50-year-old tractor and started a rural ISP.
|
| AMA, I guess?
|
| House:
| https://www.dropbox.com/s/sx8hj9s4u7n6ef9/My%20house.jpg?dl=...
|
| ISP: https://gardunha.net/en/
|
| -----
|
| Just to add some thoughts that the questions below prompted.
|
| I've realised that I really enjoy infrastructure projects. I get
| to be sat in my little house and phone up huge telecommunication
| companies and ask for things. Our provider lit up 250km of fibre
| to our local single-track train station. I get to do lots of
| stuff where I think, "errr.... am I allowed to do this?", and I
| love it.
|
| The large providers are skeptical at first, but once they realise
| you are registered with the national telecoms regulator they
| realise that you're actually serious and get onboard. They were
| bemused, but they went with it. I think they actually found it
| nice to work with a mom-and-pop organisation for a change.
| clinton_woo wrote:
| Sounds cool, like a fantasy. How far is the house from stores
| like groceries and other necessities? Must be out of the city
| I'm guessing? So you'd have to do a long drive every now and
| then to buy things?
| adamcharnock wrote:
| I can walk to the nearest village in about 10 minutes,
| although it doesn't have much in the way of amenities.
|
| The nearest city is about a 20 minute drive away. The region
| capital is about 30 minutes away. Lisbon & Porto are about
| 2.5 hours away each.
|
| Anything I go to regularly is 20-40 minutes away.
|
| The roads are of high quality and mostly empty. Petrol is
| about EUR1.80/litre, a return trip to Lisbon costs around
| EUR80 in fuel in my 2019 Suzuki with a 1 litre engine, plus
| around EUR20 in tolls assuming you take the motorway.
| hankchinaski wrote:
| Which area of portugal is this? I was looking to do exactly the
| same. Buy a cheap land and build a small house myself. I am
| just wary or property tax, bureaucracy and construction costs.
| Would love to read blogpost about your experience on this
| adamcharnock wrote:
| I'm in Central Portugal. It is the Gardunha region (known for
| its cherry growing). Between Fundao, Castelo Branco, and
| Penamacor.
|
| I don't think property tax is a big deal. Bureaucracy is a
| PITA, but accountants, lawyers, and architects are cheap. Use
| them and it'll all be easier, and likely cheaper in the long
| run.
|
| Construction costs are going up around here. The price I
| heard 4 years ago was EUR500-EUR750/m2 of house construction
| minimum.
|
| Land should cost around EUR1/m2, although it will be more if
| it has a habitable house or is being sold as 'you can build a
| house here' plot. I got planning permission (via an
| architect) to build a 300m2 house on an agricultural-only
| plot of land, although I didn't go through with it. Rules
| vary by region, but around here you can fairly easily get
| planning permission if you own more than 2ha of land.
|
| Get in touch if you want to talk more! Email is on my
| website. (asking questions here is also great)
| newby wrote:
| How does one start a rural ISP? Would you mind sharing a bit
| about that?
| adamcharnock wrote:
| Sure! I saw startyourownisp.com on HN years ago, and once I
| moved here I remembered that starting an ISP was actually a
| thing. I started a wireless ISP (WISP). The rough process is:
|
| - Find the customers*
|
| - Find somewhere to broadcast from*
|
| - Find a wholesale fibre provider*
|
| - Register with your country's regulator & read a bunch of
| laws
|
| - While you are doing the above, learn about networking. Get
| this right before you launch, then forgot about it. Post-
| launch all problems will (hopefully) be non-tech related.
|
| And also lots of good old-fashioned business cash-flow
| spreadsheets.
|
| I really like enjoy it (even though it can be stressful)
| because:
|
| - I like geekery
|
| - I like business (even thought it can be stressful)
|
| - I like being in nature, and this one of the few lines of
| work that combines the OSI model & chainsaws.
|
| - I like having a reason to meet people in my area. Great way
| to make friends.
|
| - This area really needs it. There is fibre in the villages,
| but lots of people live & work on remote patches of land. The
| service I provide really makes a difference to their lives.
|
| It don't think it'll necessarily make you rich, but it may
| give you a meaningful livelihood if you have the market for
| such a service.
|
| * You kinda need to do these three simultaneously, because
| they all need to be in the same location. At some point I
| just had to commit to one of the three and hope that
| everything else fell into place.
| newby wrote:
| Thank you so much! Another question if you don't mind - how
| difficult was the bureaucratic aspect? Registering with
| regulator etc... what would you consider the biggest
| hurdle?
| adamcharnock wrote:
| Well this is going to vary hugely by country. I think
| that got easier in Portugal from 2017, so I was a little
| lucky in that regard. I think it is also fairly straight-
| forward in the UK/US too. We had to pay a EUR700 one-off
| fee, and we need to fill in a report (i.e. spreadsheet)
| once per quarter with our total customers (and various
| other bits).
|
| We also need to log netflow data due to the EU counter
| terrorism directive, and keep it securely. Last I heard
| it had been deemed unconstitutional by the EU courts, but
| the law had yet to be revoked.
|
| The hardest part BY FAR, was getting the fibre
| connection. My advice for this is to do your research to
| find the available providers in you area/country. There
| is no fibre map for Portugal, so this was tricky. Reach
| out to actual people and ask for contacts at telecoms
| companies in your country. You are looking for Direct
| Internet Access (DIA). This comment of mine is a bit
| relevant [1]
|
| The WISP facebook groups [2] [3] really helped me with
| this, and in figuring out what I need to go and learn
| about. Don't let those groups stress you out though. I've
| un-followed them now.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30128418
|
| [2] https://www.facebook.com/groups/249134358750920
|
| [3] https://www.facebook.com/groups/2167897793237945
| zoobab wrote:
| Data retention directive, France does not want to obey
| the CJEU ruling because of 'national security' jocker
| card. And they make fuss about Poland not respecting EU
| law.
| newby wrote:
| BTW, I really like the coverage checker at your website.
| Clever! So simple...
| adamcharnock wrote:
| Ooh, I also spun this project out of making the coverage
| checker:
|
| https://github.com/adamcharnock/python-srtm
| adamcharnock wrote:
| Thank you! It took some iterations, but we got there :D
| steelstraw wrote:
| That looks really nice.
|
| Does the ISP cover your expenses or is it supplemental?
| adamcharnock wrote:
| It does not, but it has only been about 8 months. Break-even
| is in sight though. Then I can decide if I want to just let
| it bring in some money, of it I want to 'Bezos' it and expand
| coverage instead.
|
| PS. And thank you :-)
| starik36 wrote:
| Very cool. Are there curtains on the window to prevent people
| from seeing where you are sleeping?
| adamcharnock wrote:
| Hehe, no. There is no-one to see in. It is because I made a
| miscalculation in the house design. I was hoping that the
| awning would prevent the worst of the summer sun from hitting
| the windows, but it did not. So I got some custom canvas made
| up which I can use to keep the sun out. [1]
|
| [1]: https://www.dropbox.com/s/bbe9z3risocrl5e/IMG_20190909_1
| 2531...
|
| Edit: Clarity
| gdubs wrote:
| Our large west facing windows get way too hot so we had
| this 3M film installed that essentially tints the windows
| and blocks UV. I'm a HUGE fan of it -- in many ways it
| actually improved the view out the window by reducing
| glare.
| adamcharnock wrote:
| That actually sounds pretty interesting. Maybe I'll look
| into that for this summer. My concern would it feel too
| dark in the winter.
| mahogany wrote:
| Did you use a set of plans specifically for the A-frame studio
| house, or was it an amalgamation of a bunch of different
| resources? I'd love more resources on it if you have a
| suggestion.
| adamcharnock wrote:
| I would love to be able to suggest something, but I think I
| just made up the design from my own head. I had a rough plan,
| and I made the rest up as I went along.
|
| If you send me an email (see my profile -> website) I can
| share with you the construction photos.
| hgomersall wrote:
| Sounds like most builders I've come across. The difference
| is they normally have a design they're supposed to work
| from.
| georgeoliver wrote:
| Cool! Do you have some references/links for the floor heat
| system? How big is the house?
|
| I'm mostly curious about the cycle time. We install floor heat
| in our homes, typically with a gas-fired boiler.
| adamcharnock wrote:
| So the floor heat system is somewhat unusual. Details are:
|
| - The house is 5x7m. The heated area is about 2.5x7m
|
| - There is no concrete base. The system [1] I used was
| designed to receive concrete, but I decided against it.
|
| - The floor heats up in about 30 minutes, but the water
| temperature is substantially higher than normal (because lack
| of thermal conductivity due to lack of concrete)
|
| - The flooring is large plywood sheets[2]. Surface
| temperature is variable, 23-26deg.
|
| - The heating is provided by a wood-burning 'bailarina' [3]
| [4] [5]
|
| - There is no heat exchanger. The hot water that goes under
| the floor is the same as the hot water that comes out the
| tap. Not drinking the hot water is kinda normal for europeans
| though. The pipes may clog up with sediment in 5-10 years,
| but they are not concreted in so I'm not too bothered.
|
| It may seem like there are some odd choices there. My
| priority was simplicity and being able to easily change
| things in the future.
|
| Edit: clarity
|
| Edit 2: If I was to do it again with more time and patience,
| I would pour in sand. It has about the same thermal
| properties of concrete, and is way less permanent.
|
| [1]: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yisemvup42cd86l/IMG_20190917_1
| 6511...
|
| [2]: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yjmqarrgqcnnzto/IMG_20190918_1
| 5193...
|
| [3]: https://b-shop.pt/en/fire-wood-water-
| heater/1018-bailarina-i...
|
| [4]: https://www.dropbox.com/s/nfttkuqqxzapwff/IMG_20191211_1
| 6325...
|
| [5]: https://www.dropbox.com/s/g57ytyvi7c31w3o/IMG_20190317_1
| 6555...
| [deleted]
| incanus77 wrote:
| It's funny, at first glance of that top photo, I was sure I had
| seen it in a Blender tutorial video and it might even be the same
| (rendered) image). But no, I found it and although the layout is
| strikingly similar, it's not it.
|
| Photo:
| https://cortex.persona.co/w/768/i/dee5ee05cc81d757e22f2338ab...
|
| Render: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyXRBu7gn2o (0:36 in)
| fartcannon wrote:
| Leaving out the actual financial information makes this post a
| little useless. Before I can imagine it, I want to know if I can
| do this or if I need to be a trust fund baby.
| [deleted]
| ttul wrote:
| These kids may not have a trust fund, but to have already
| bought and sold a Vancouver townhouse with enough equity to buy
| raw land and build a fairly baller house on it... they
| definitely had parental help.
| gameman144 wrote:
| Or are working in highly-paid careers. It's definitely not
| infeasible for a dual tech income to afford this after an
| early life saving for it.
| shtopointo wrote:
| Dude works for slack - a quick search reveals that he was one
| of the early employees. I know nothing about him otherwise,
| but he doesn't have to come from money, being lucky with the
| IPO could explain the windfall to afford the house. In other
| news, it looks pretty (and over the top), but I doubt most of
| us here will ever be able to afford something like this.
| dleslie wrote:
| If you bought a house _anywhere_ in Metro Vancouver and held
| it for ten years, you could likely finance this project if
| you sold it now.
| odonnellryan wrote:
| You would have net $3m+ on any of those homes?
| dleslie wrote:
| You don't need the full value to finance a $3M project;
| the author mentioned a mortgage.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| If a couple in their 30s with 2 children are kids...what do
| you consider adults?
|
| Also, I'm approximately their same demographic and could
| afford to build a house like this if the other estimates in
| this thread are approximate, and have literally not taken a
| penny from my parents, or used their resources(which are
| scant - I was paid more my first job out of college than both
| my parents combined), since I was 16.
| drBonkers wrote:
| OP uses 'kids' to imply maturity, not age.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| There's nothing less mature than raising children and
| overseeing your home's construction, while holding down a
| full time job.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| Their lack of mature shows when they talk about being
| concerned about the environment then using so much power
| to run their house.
| googlryas wrote:
| The source of the power is important. Are they kids if
| they care about the environment and pay for 400A service
| of renewable energy?
|
| Is there anyone in America or Canada who cares about the
| environment, who is _not_ a kid by your standard? I know
| a bunch of people who claim to care about the
| environment, but they still eat meat, drive ICE cars,
| have children, use ridiculous amounts of power compared
| to the global average, and do many of the normal things
| North Americans do. I still believe they care about the
| environment though.
| JaimeThompson wrote:
| They have a large propane generator to provide
| supplemental power when the 400A service isn't enough,
| such generators typically do not have advanced pollution
| control / carbon capture devices attached. This, combined
| with the design of the building, is evidence their care
| doesn't extend to action in this instance.
| googlryas wrote:
| Sounds like a stop-gap measure, partially because
| building codes in the region didn't let them do what they
| really wanted to do:
|
| > These are two areas where the BC building code, BC
| Hydro, and the construction industry lag behind more
| environmentally progressive regions. It's our hope that
| as the technology and standards improve we'll be able to
| eliminate propane from the mix and use a fully electric
| power base, much of it captured on site from our 11.6 kW
| array.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| > Vancouver townhouse
|
| > enough equity to buy raw land and build a fairly baller
| house on it
|
| Sounds about right for Vancouver property market.
| georgewfraser wrote:
| It's at least $1,000/sqft all-in. Construction costs have gone
| up a lot in recent years, and architecturally designed houses
| like this are expensive to design and build.
| jeffbee wrote:
| The post says they own a duplex in Vancouver, the most
| expensive housing market on Earth. This is where your rents are
| going if you are a family renting a flat in Vancouver for
| $4500/month: for these people to pave over some remaining BC
| forests.
| newhouseb wrote:
| I would guess construction costs for this home would be around
| $2MM including labor, materials and management overhead, but
| excluding land.
|
| Source: am finishing up a home at a similar finish-level at a
| similar size, although not quite as fancy as this I don't
| think.
| jypepin wrote:
| this seems accurate
|
| source: We're currently working with an architect on a
| similar project.
| [deleted]
| mritchie712 wrote:
| I thought you made this username for your "new house". I was
| wrong.
| hinkley wrote:
| This is one of those, "If you have to ask, you can't afford
| it." situations for sure.
| rglover wrote:
| Assuming they hired an architect and had hired labor build it
| (and put Feist lyrics at the bottom of the post), easily in the
| multi-million dollar range considering the location.
|
| That said, it doesn't have to be that way. I'm building a house
| up in the mountains at the moment. Found ~3 acres for 12k and
| I'm doing the land clearing and build mostly by myself on the
| weekends to keep costs down.
|
| My current guess is final costs w/ out-of-pocket financing
| (goal is to do it debt-free so I own house and land outright
| when I finish) will be somewhere between $250k-$350k, including
| the land price (maybe a bit higher as material prices
| fluctuate).
|
| If you're patient and willing to make adjustments elsewhere in
| your life, you can do it. If you're just building a simple
| house, too, and not a Dwell photoshoot, you'd be surprised at
| what you can accomplish.
| celestialcheese wrote:
| I live in this area. Build prices for modern, architectural
| homes up there is probably in the $300-$400 / sqft range at
| the moment. Sure, you could do some work yourself, but unless
| you've got an army of friends and family that can do
| complicated concrete work in remote areas, your going to have
| to hire professionals, and professionals are _really_
| expensive right now.
|
| My guess is this build was between $900k-$1.2m CA. Hard to
| guess without knowing the sqft or acreage. This isn't
| necessarily outrageous given the market up there, and was
| probably a great investment and has substantial equity, but
| you need a strong personal balance sheet to handle that and
| the cost overruns.
|
| Your right, though, that if you live in a low cost of living
| area, and you keep your expectations and footprint
| manageable, you can get a lot for very little. Like these cob
| homes, gorgeous - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzpfkjjqOw
| fartcannon wrote:
| 3 acres for 12k? Where? That's incredible. Well done!
| rglover wrote:
| Tennessee.
| fartcannon wrote:
| I see.
|
| I don't think you could buy a temporary ice fishing hut
| for 12k in Canada.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| But you can live on the lake rent-free for several months
| of the year if you go north enough.
|
| What's _that_ worth to you?
| mod wrote:
| In case anyone else thinks that's crazy, I bought 40 acres
| in the Ozarks with a (manufactured) home, a shop, a 52x14
| storage building, and a few other outbuildings. The land
| was mostly wooded, with a few acres in use for a garden.
|
| $60,000 in 2015
|
| Details: 1 hour from walmart, 35 minutes from the grocery,
| 5 miles from pavement, zero stoplights in my county, no
| zoning at all (build anything you want). But a nicely-kept
| dirt road, plenty of people living in the area, etc.
| tomrod wrote:
| My thoughts exactly. This process seems difficult to understand
| without understanding the costs involved.
|
| Many, many people dream of living in the woods. The costs are
| usually unknown or prohibitive!
| vehemenz wrote:
| According to the author, the couple acquired the money within 5
| years. So yes, this is a wealthy person building with very few
| constraints.
|
| I mean it's still somewhat interesting vicariously. Kind of
| like the New York Times' house-hunting section, wherein they
| pretend that an $800,000 walk-up is an entry-level home.
| sswezey wrote:
| Ugh, the font doesn't scale when zooming, but the pictures do.
| The font does scale though when changing the container size. The
| font is massive on a monitor, terrible UX.
| banga wrote:
| font size [?] A
| tpmx wrote:
| Yeah.
|
| Also: It sucks that bookmarklets have fallen out of fashion. I
| just spent a few minutes trying to find a working bookmarklet
| that changes the font size and failed.
| vehemenz wrote:
| Agreed. It is obnoxiously large doesn't scale correctly. The
| text is too big on a standard 4K monitor or phone.
|
| The author used viewport-relative units for body text and
| (guessing) only tested on a laptop screen.
|
| This fixes it:
|
| [data-predefined-style="true"] main { font-size: 20px; }
| agentdrtran wrote:
| I loved the big font and overall UX, very minimalist and fit
| their theme it seems like.
| Edman274 wrote:
| The rich are different from you and me. (Yes, they have more
| money.)
| porknubbins wrote:
| This house and lot are incredible and I would love to build a
| modern home in the woods, but I feel like this article was
| missing a disclaimer somewhere "Step 1 be rich" - even though
| land in Canada may not be super expensive this project was
| clearly in the one to several million dollar range.
| balutdev wrote:
| drecoe wrote:
| If this sort of thing interests you but you can't afford a multi-
| million dollar build I'd recommend checking out Theron Humphrey's
| work building a modern lakeside home in Montana
| (https://www.thiswildidea.com/casa). He built a simple, modern
| and affordable (think low 6 figure) home and did a good amount of
| the work himself while sharing info on the process. Apparently
| he's embarking on a new build this year in Arizona and sharing
| more in-depth info on his youtube.
| gigatexal wrote:
| my takeaway: it sure is nice to be rich.
|
| nice home; kudos but is this really HN material ;-)
| carabiner wrote:
| This is HN male oriented wealth porn. Just as some women
| fantasize about dream weddings and pore over the NYTimes Vows
| section, or some teens watch influencers give tours of their
| high-rise apartments, we have HN men who really, really want an
| ultra modern mansion in the woods. The craving for luxury is
| universal and it's no surprise this guy is a senior engineer at
| Slack. Seriously, what an extraordinary house.
| drewcoo wrote:
| And that's why smokejumpers need to die every year. Because
| people need to build luxury homes in the forest.
| d23 wrote:
| I wish he mentioned the total cost. It's nice that this amount of
| information is provided for those that would want to do similar,
| but by the same token, I'd need some sort of ballpark cost
| estimate to know whether I should even begin thinking about
| something like this.
| georgewfraser wrote:
| It's too bad they didn't share their final costs, there's very
| little public info on how much custom builds like this really
| cost. I think people are a little embarrassed by how much they
| spent and so they don't want to reveal it.
| shtopointo wrote:
| Google "climate change site:https://johnnyrodgers.is/"
| DeRock wrote:
| I did that and found: https://johnnyrodgers.is/On-Earth
|
| I honestly cannot connect the person who wrote the above with
| the one who designed and built what is an absurdly inefficient
| unnatural mansion in what used to be some pristine wilderness.
| Talk about cognitive dissonance.
| shtopointo wrote:
| Yup...
| brailsafe wrote:
| That Slack money must be nice ;)
|
| With no intention of attacking the author, but as someone renting
| in Vancouver, I think excluding costs while regularly hinting
| that they didn't have much of a budget seems a bit off, if not
| even just to add a transparent datapoint to the corpus of
| potential Canadian/Vancouver salaries that have been stagnating
| for years, while Johnny and his family likely saw massive
| appreciation on their duplex between what seems like 2014 and
| now. It's not easy to support a family in this city, so no matter
| how much you make, owning anything and having two children is
| going to be tight, and I wouldn't assume you're being
| disingenuous about that, but if you're cool, break down the
| actual overall costs. Not necessarily what the specific
| contractors charged you, but probably an approximation of what
| your take home salary is and what it cost to build. It wouldn't
| be terribly difficult to geogeuss the location and property
| assessment, but it would be slightly more charitable to be
| upfront.
|
| > A lot of people dream of building a modern home. Or rather, a
| lot of people dream of living in a modern home. A place of their
| own, with the people they love, surrounded by functional beauty
| and considerate form.
|
| A lot of people in this city, even in tech, couldn't dream of
| owning anything, but this article has the potential to be
| inspiring. The median salary earned in Vancouver at a tolerable
| savings rate would require 35 years to own a detached home.
|
| > I hope you're able to fulfill your own dreams too.
|
| Well...
|
| Edit: It was trivial to track this information down, it's named
| in the article. I won't reveal the address, but I'll add the cost
| of land and current value of the property if the author doesn't.
| Overall the property gained at least 1.8M in taxable value as far
| as public records are concerned, but it would be awesome to get a
| sense of what it actually cost to build.
| Mandatum wrote:
| This is the type of house that gets published in architecture
| and "Home" magazines as inspiration. The thing is most of those
| houses do a bit of media and advertising to help pay costs.
| It's partly sponsored and used by architects to sell their
| services. The "FU Money" emanating from this article is
| palpable.
|
| Good for OP - it's amazing, but boy sometimes the shit you read
| from tech folk is so detached from the regular every-day
| experience of regular people. "Building a modern home in the
| woods", really?
| tamaharbor wrote:
| Wow, rough crowd.
| carabiner wrote:
| Strong resemblance can be seen to the former REI headquarters
| building in Bellevue, WA: https://www.geekwire.com/2020/facebook-
| buys-reis-new-hq-367m...
| totalview wrote:
| Better title: Bragging about how big of a modern American mansion
| we can build in the woods
| a3w wrote:
| Don't. Woods need to burn down every once in a while, or they
| will burn down for good.
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