[HN Gopher] DarkPattern.games: Find Healthy Mobile Games
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DarkPattern.games: Find Healthy Mobile Games
Author : homarp
Score : 205 points
Date : 2022-02-02 21:42 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.darkpattern.games)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.darkpattern.games)
| DavideNL wrote:
| Heh. So if you click the Apple icon, you get games that are NOT
| playable on Apple devices :S
|
| *confusing*
| user123456780 wrote:
| You can see a correlation between healthy and unhealthy games in
| their icons.
|
| Ungealthy games are mostly high quality 'renders' for lack of a
| better term. The healthy games have a much less attention
| grabbing 'lower quality' icon.
| dang wrote:
| One past discussion:
|
| _Show HN: Dark Patterns in Game Design_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20953553 - Sept 2019 (8
| comments)
| awelxtr wrote:
| With free games it would be easier to put a list of games without
| dark patterns.
| jiggunjer wrote:
| I'm pretty confident gaming addiction is a thing, but not sure
| how strong (in terms of studies/evidence) the correlation is with
| these dark patterns. My hypothesis is that certain personality
| types are just more susceptible to gaming addiction, regardless
| of patterns.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| The first time I read "99 francs", I remember arriving on the
| double page that was nothing but a list of tag lines from tv
| ads. No context. No brands. Just 2 full pages of things that
| I've heard in between shows.
|
| I could hear the jingle in my head. I knew each of the names of
| the brand after reading the tag lines.
|
| For every. Single. One. Of. Them.
|
| I always though I was not susceptible to this. Ads are only
| influencing others, but not me.
|
| But no.
|
| There are ways for people to burn themself through the screen
| into your brain. And video games mechanics is no exception.
| gowld wrote:
| How many of those brands have you purchased?
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| I'd say 5% more than once a year.
|
| But my point is that there are ways to stick in people's
| mind through screens. You can't make 100% of the targets
| make 100% of the moves you want. But a few % here and there
| add up.
| elldoubleyew wrote:
| I've always wondered if I have a "gaming addiction"
|
| I play league of legends at least 4 hours per day, sometimes
| 20+ hours. I am obsessed with learning all the intricacies and
| improving in the ELO-based ranking system.
|
| I still maintain a full time job as an SWE, a romantic
| relationship, and personal hygiene/diet. Admittedly LoL comes
| first before work for me, and can cause tension in my
| relationship at times.
|
| I know many men that have a very similar relationship with
| golf, but are they golf addicts?
| watwut wrote:
| The addiction definition requires negative effect on you or
| closed ones. And inability to stop even when you rationally
| think you should stop. So, depending on how much tension and
| what kind of tension, it can be qualified as addiction or
| not.
|
| > I know many men that have a very similar relationship with
| golf, but are they golf addicts?
|
| Very time consuming hobbies do have higher rates of divorced
| participants. Regardless of whether they are popular enough
| for people to know about hobby related issues or not.
| makapuf wrote:
| Divorced persons may have more time by themselves so maybe
| they also engage in more time consuming hobbys.
| watwut wrote:
| Yes, the relationship goes both ways. Divorced people
| have more time and are more likely to join. People are
| more likely to divorce if they have such hobbies too -
| the implications for partner are very very real.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| You have a "gaming addiction" as much as some people have a
| "network television" addiction. Some people just like to
| experience a medium for several hours a day. Playing four
| hours of LoL is just as meaningless as watching four hours of
| TV. One is more stigmatized than the other (I'll give you a
| hint, the one where ads can be delivered on a regular
| schedule is the more acceptable one). And I'm willing to bet
| that if there's something you need to do that night, you
| could sacrifice one or two days to get things done and not
| feel any ill effects (and if I may rib on it a bit, probably
| feel much better having stepped away from LoL).
| mkl95 wrote:
| This. Being an addict to "x" often depends on what
| relationship the average citizen is expected to have with
| "x". In a deeply religious society, reading and analyzing
| religious texts for hours every day may be seen as an
| average activity, while in a non religious society you may
| be seen as a lunatic. In most if not all societies, people
| are expected to work full time, but workaholism treatment
| centers are not particularly popular.
| meetups323 wrote:
| I don't think very many men play golf at least 4 hours every
| day. That's a full round of 18, every single day? And some
| days 5 full rounds?
|
| The exception would _maybe_ be if they 're working from the
| course (closing deals/making calls/etc.), but that's pretty
| different from your situation.
| frankohn wrote:
| China is taking draconian measures to protect people from game
| addiction. While I generally don't agree with their politics I
| feel they are doing the right things to protect the society.
|
| I feel the occidental states are not doing enough to protect
| people from game addiction and protect children from tablet
| addiction and bad contents.
|
| These thing are slowly eroding our society and making people more
| miserable when they are not able to help themselves against all
| these forms of addiction.
| finiteseries wrote:
| Video games and tablets are not eroding our societies.
|
| Children's usage of video games and tablets is their parents
| job, not the national government's.
|
| I don't know what country you're in, but the thought of whoever
| is in control of mine "protecting" anyone from bad contents,
| let alone children, is enough to send chills down one's spine.
|
| That is a blank check on info consumption and the sheer naivety
| required to entertain that idea for more than a second is
| bewildering.
| brnt wrote:
| It is about empowering the parent/citizen in the face of
| trillion dollar companies spending more money than ever
| gaming our psyches.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| >Children's usage of video games and tablets is their parents
| job, not the national government's.
|
| Confucianism would disagree and most East-Asian countries
| have been running on some version of it for a few thousand
| years, so you might want to reevaluate why that idea is so
| bewildering to you.
|
| Honestly I find the idea bewildering that parents are
| supposed to be the sole authority on these matters, because
| 1. works out pretty badly for people who don't have stable
| parents, which is quite a lot of them nowadays, 2. neglects
| virtually all institutional knowledge collected over long
| periods of time
| seneca wrote:
| Well said.
|
| I do think there is a place for state institutions to fund
| research and public-good marketing campaigns on these issues.
| Maybe to go so far as campaigns explaining these behaviors
| are unhealthy and potentially dangerous in optional school
| programs. In short, state intervention in child rearing,
| short of major abuse, should be limited to optional
| education.
| ericd wrote:
| Are you a parent? If you are, what degree of control do you
| think you have over what your child is exposed to during the
| times when they're not with you?
|
| Not saying I like the draconian levels that China is going to
| on this, but a lot of how your kid turns out is based on what
| they're exposed to by their peers, and so some things are
| societal/population level problems. Parents can broadly try
| to affect this by controlling the school their kids go to,
| but that's a very blunt instrument at best, generally much
| more expensive than less great schools, and a huge amount of
| work to redo. If they're already struggling due to eg high
| housing costs relative to their wages (another one of our
| societal issues), then the parents are going to have a really
| uphill challenge trying to curate their children's'
| experience.
|
| It takes a village, and if your village is not working well,
| you're going to have a hard time as a parent. This whole idea
| of nuclear families as independent units was never true and
| needs to die.
| seneca wrote:
| I largely agree with you up until your last sentence. The
| mistake you're making is equating the government with the
| village. That is a fundamental mistake and failure that
| seems extremely widespread. Civil Society needs to address
| this problem.
|
| Bastiat has a passage in the Law which touched on this,
| though he is specifically talking about socialists:
|
| > Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs,
| confuses the distinction between government and society. As
| a result of this, every time we object to a thing being
| done by government, the socialists conclude that we object
| to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education.
| Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any
| education. We object to a state religion. Then the
| socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object
| to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are
| against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the
| socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat
| because we do not want the state to raise grain.
| tifadg1 wrote:
| Are you referring to limiting online play time or were there
| other steps as well?
| frankohn wrote:
| I only know about limiting online games.
| Kiro wrote:
| China's video game regulator hasn't approved any new titles
| since July 2021. Sounds like an outright ban to me.
| autoexec wrote:
| Cool site! I wish there was a way to show games which are both
| free and healthy. I suspect it would be a small list, but still
| worth having.
| DaveSapien wrote:
| This is so much up my street its practically in my house!
|
| A few days ago, I just released a mobile game focused very much
| on the wellbeing of the player.
|
| It's called Kanso, And I'll be submitting it here for sure. Thank
| you very much for posting!!!!
| kant_adorn_arts wrote:
| What a great website. I'd been thinking of how to find such info.
| We buy lots of kids games, and this is a great 'cheat sheet'. It
| is great that you spell out the dark patterns.
|
| Who reviews the games? Upfront, it seems like they have done an
| excellent job.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Wow, this site has a very low threshold for considering something
| a 'dark pattern'. If you look at the psychological section, these
| are all considered dark patterns:
|
| * A leveling up system
|
| * Badges/achievements
|
| * Collecting things
|
| * Getting better tools/equipment as the game progresses
|
| That's like...most games, I think? Most single-player games at
| least probably have at least one of those.
|
| edit: some of the examples listed here are hilarious
|
| > D4DJ Groovy Mix
|
| > "difficulty 1 through 14 is easy to learn and master, while 15
| is the hardest difficulty in the game. makes people think that
| they have 90% of the skill of the best player but in reality it
| is not the case"
|
| > Magic: The Gathering Arena
|
| > "There are mysterious matchmaking algorithms. It isn't clear
| how these work. At face, they appear to match players of similar
| skill or deck strength."
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| This bar is not low at all. Anything involving reward can cause
| addiction and harm. All of those things you cited are just
| methods of scheduling rewards. You level up every X amount of
| time, you get an item every Y amount of time.
|
| These things are not some unforeseen emergent feature, they are
| deliberately designed. What makes it malicious is the behavior
| these rewards are designed to create.
|
| An RPG using a leveling system to make sure you can't survive
| certain challenges until you've progressed enough is not
| malicious at all.
|
| An RPG that pits players against each other, imposes the same
| leveling system on players, rates limit their progression with
| a timer and allows people to reset the timer by paying money
| essentially turns the game into a spending competition whose
| goal is to see who can pay some corporation the most money. Not
| to mention their blatant attempt to form habits in players by
| giving them daily login rewards and tasks.
| vitro wrote:
| Curious question, what about if you use some of these "dark"
| approaches for something good? Say some education app that
| hooks you so you can progress and learn more. Are they still
| called "dark patterns" in this case? Example - badges for tasks
| you have done or "streaks" or levels to show you how you
| progress and what you have achieved so far?
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| You're talking about Duolingo, right? The problem with these
| incentives is you eventually forget you installed the app to
| learn a new language and you start gaming the system instead
| by repeating easy lessons just to avoid losing your position
| in diamond league.
| thewebcount wrote:
| In my opinion, yes. Take for example DuoLingo. It is very
| aggressive about trying to get you to turn on notifications.
| They claim that if you have notifications on you're more
| likely to continue learning at a regular pace. That may be
| true (though spaced repetition seems best, and they use
| "streaks" of days you've interacted with the app as a metric,
| which is the opposite of spaced repetition). However, my
| understanding is that they also slip in other notifications
| about things you might not care about like your "rank" on the
| "leaderboards". (I'm trying to learn a language, not compete
| in the Olympics. Why do I need to compare my progress to
| random strangers around the world?) Some of the dark patterns
| go away when you subscribe, but not all. Using the app feels
| really gross, even though I am learning a new language. Many
| of the dark patterns may have positive outcomes, but it's all
| still to juice their metrics in the end.
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| Badges and achievements definitely are a dark pattern. You can
| tell they are because game developers have gone so overboard on
| them now that you are like, oh I got a badge, yes I'll claim
| it, no I haven't a clue what it does...
|
| The rest of the things you identify, as you say, that's just
| games.
|
| (I think this website is a very, very good idea)
| madrox wrote:
| I'm not sure if it's a broad definition of dark pattern or a
| narrow definition of game. This site probably considers sudoku,
| wordle, and crosswords to be games, but would probably not
| consider, say, Witcher to be a game...at least not a good one.
| I kinda see their point.
| brnt wrote:
| I actually totally agree. For way longer than I should have did
| I avoid RPGs because of those systems, because they seemed a
| silly reduction of "progress". Now that I play RPGs, I still
| find them pointless annoyances that get in my way of enjoying
| the world/story.
|
| I still don't like that Steam added achievements to my games. I
| wish I could disable the entire "feature".
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| "I personally don't like this thing" isn't the same thing as
| "dark pattern." There are people like you that explicitly
| avoid RPG's, sure, and there are people who explicitly seek
| them out because they enjoy that part of the mechanics.
|
| Having 'levels' in games has been around for a long time, you
| can probably trace them back to the beginning days of D&D.
| Were the original D&D authors trying to get people addicted?
| Probably not, it was just something they thought players
| would like. And indeed, many players do.
| brnt wrote:
| Even if a long time ago these mechanisms weren't meant as a
| dark pattern, it isn't difficult to see how they are easily
| turned into one, is it?
|
| It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this effect,
| and it is a pity that even with them amplified some still
| don't see the potential for harm. You are right, it does
| not matter whether or not we like the mechanism or not for
| it to be problematic.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| > it isn't difficult to see how they are easily turned
| into one, is it?
|
| Perhaps, but their mere existence isn't being a dark
| pattern.
|
| > It seems obvious these mechanisms always had this
| effect
|
| What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a
| good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too
| then?
|
| To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a
| mechanic is being used to push people to play the game
| more past what they actually enjoy. It's when they don't
| really feel like playing anymore, but some system in the
| game compels them to, they feel they 'need' to do
| something in there. On the other hand, if people do enjoy
| the specific game element itself, if taking it away would
| make fans of that type of game find it less enjoyable,
| then it's not really a dark pattern.
|
| If you removed levels and similar systems of progression
| from Final Fantasy or The Elder Scrolls, would fans of
| those series find the games more or less enjoyable? My
| bet is less.
| brnt wrote:
| > To me, the idea of a 'dark pattern' here is when a
| mechanic is being used to push people to play the game
| more past what they actually enjoy.
|
| Would people play less if such mechanisms were left out?
| I'm sure of it. Thus they are nudging you to play more,
| to get that achievement, to round out that score. I don't
| see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a good game.
| Below you are spot on: these things are not intrinsic to
| the game and thus, IMHO, best left off. The meta game of
| completionism does not affect everyone the same, but I
| don't think it ever adds.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| > Would people play less if such mechanisms were left
| out? I'm sure of it.
|
| I already addressed this point earlier:
|
| > What effect? Getting people to play more? Do having a
| good story or tight mechanics count as dark patterns too
| then?
|
| I'm going to call out now that you ignored this question.
| Was that just because you didn't have a good response
| that fit your argument? It sure seems like it.
|
| > I don't see how it couldn't, or what this adds to a
| good game.
|
| This is just you asserting your own preferences as an
| Objective Moral Good. "I don't understand why other
| people would like <thing>, therefore I can conclude that
| their enjoyment is irrelevant or objectively incorrect."
|
| Part of having an open mind is learning to accept that
| other people may enjoy things that we find odd or even
| bewildering. Asserting that if other people find
| different things enjoyable, then Other People Are Wrong
| is the mark of a closed mind.
|
| If you _actually_ believe the point you 're putting forth
| here -- that RPG fans don't truly enjoy the mechanics
| most closely associated with a game being an RPG -- then
| I suggest you go to an RPG forum and ask them yourself.
| Because your whole argument here smells very strongly of,
| "doesn't understand the perspective of others, and
| doesn't want to understand."
| brnt wrote:
| The mechanic of levelling up or gathering experience
| points and so on are proxies for a sense of progress, not
| actual progress. They don't get you anything but the
| satisfaction of getting it. Textbook pointlessness.
|
| Asserting that I do not understand people enjoy different
| things differently, and the other things you Seem To Wish
| To Imply: undermines your attempt at convincing me my
| mind is closed. You insistence on mistaking validation
| for goodness (because people enjoy it, does not mean it
| without dark pattern) however might show you something
| about your own mind. Tons of people like things that are
| not 'good' for them, doesn't mean we should see no
| problem with is or at least understand the pitfall.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| > The meta game of completionism does not affect everyone
| the same, but I don't think it ever adds.
|
| I think it adds.
|
| Your argument seems to be that it _never_ adds, which is
| easily refuted by one person who thinks it adds.
|
| Although, saying "it adds" is incomplete. What I mean is
| it adds to the enjoyment of the game, there are games I
| would enjoy less without "leveling up". Thus, leveling up
| adds to a game by enhancing its primary purpose for
| existing, mental stimulation and enjoyment.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Why don't you like achievements? I'm curious. I never cared
| about them in the past and for most games they are just a
| little nonsense side bubble that pop up sometimes. But for a
| few games I've sunk a ton of hours into, mostly rouge likes,
| they are fun to try to complete.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| As an adult gamer with limited time, I'm not a
| completionist at all, so I sympathize with feeling that
| achievements can be kind of naggy, like I'm being scolded
| for not investing further in a title. Part of that is just
| facing my own demons-- like, Spider-Man PS4 was a super fun
| time; I played it through twice and got almost all the
| trophies, but I'm not a bad person for being done with it
| before getting the platinum.
|
| On the other hand, recently playing Nobody Saves The World,
| I've actually come to enjoy the little mini Form Quests
| that it gives you-- you have to complete something like 200
| of these to progress the main story (they award stars that
| are needed to open key dungeon doors), but more
| importantly, they encourage you to engage with the mix-and-
| match abilities system that the game offers, which preps
| you with the mindset that is needed to take on certain
| late-game challenges.
|
| Into The Breach is another excellent title that has in-game
| completion tracking, encouraging you to get a 2-, 3-, and
| 4-island victory with each set of mechs, and awarding
| unlocks at certain milestones of those.
|
| So I think I slightly resent but am happy to ignore "bolted
| on" achievements that are purely observational, but I also
| appreciate some games that do more with achievement-like
| challenges in terms of pushing the player to try new
| strategies.
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| > Into The Breach is another excellent title that has in-
| game completion tracking, encouraging you to get a 2-,
| 3-, and 4-island victory with each set of mechs, and
| awarding unlocks at certain milestones of those.
|
| I f'ing hated the achievement-based unlocks in Into The
| Breach. If you want to gate content behind beating the
| game at certain difficulties or something, I guess that's
| fine, but to do it with arbitrary numbers of random
| bullshit objectives, many of them luck based, was
| annoying as hell.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| > I f'ing hated the achievement-based unlocks in Into The
| Breach.
|
| That's a fair perspective. For my part, I felt pretty
| consistently when I lost an ITB run that I deserved it--
| I hadn't lost to a heartless RNG, I had lost because I
| made a wrong choice, and the scenario would have been
| beatable if I'd made different tradeoffs.
|
| I think what I liked about the progressive unlocking was
| that I was never overwhelmed by too much choice upfront
| as happens in some games (think old school RPGs with a
| spreadsheet character builder as the first screen), and I
| felt when I did get a new team unlocked like I'd really
| put in the effort and earned it; I was excited to try it
| out in a way that I wouldn't be if I just had them all
| available from the beginning (or unlocked via some other
| means that I hadn't worked for).
| AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote:
| > That's a fair perspective. For my part, I felt pretty
| consistently when I lost an ITB run that I deserved it--
| I hadn't lost to a heartless RNG, I had lost because I
| made a wrong choice, and the scenario would have been
| beatable if I'd made different tradeoffs.
|
| ....which has absolutely nothing to do with achievements?
| I agree, the game design was fine in this regard, it is
| the gating of unlocks behind arbitrary objectives relying
| on luck that I have a problem with[0]. If they just gated
| each team behind beating the game with a previous team I
| wouldn't have complained.
|
| [0] Specifically, unlocking certain characters relied on
| luck based events, as did even having an attempt at some
| of the achievements. All achievements need to be unlocked
| for the final team, which I never got because fuck that
| noise.
| brnt wrote:
| They are a meta game and feel like cheap way to encourage
| me to play more. A game, at least that's how I prefer it,
| should just be so good that I will want to play more. Games
| should trust their own quality, and let the player have
| their own experience of it, not incentivize or normalize
| the experience.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| I feel similarly sometimes myself. It's like those studies
| on giving money to little kids when they draw. You're doing
| something for the intrinsic reward, the joy of playing, and
| now they've slapped on some extrinsic reward you didn't ask
| for. So the game makes you feel, on some level, that you're
| doing it for the extrinsic reward, and it saps some of the
| intrinsic joy you felt earlier.
|
| https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/intrinsic-motivation.php
|
| > So, those who had previously liked drawing (high
| intrinsic motivation) were less motivated once they
| expected to be rewarded for the activity.
|
| > In fact the expected reward reduced the amount of
| spontaneous drawing the children did by half.
| savanaly wrote:
| Agree. There are other types of games besides straightforward
| puzzle and platforming games!
| bradly wrote:
| Arena is pretty bad. Definitely dark patterns are being used
| with their gold/gem economy.
| crooked-v wrote:
| > A leveling up system
|
| > Getting better tools/equipment as the game progresses
|
| These two in particular have been a consistent part of game
| design for a long time because they ease players into
| increasing gameplay complexity over time. Metroid games are a
| simple example: when you start off you can run, jump and shoot,
| and by the end of the game you're using every button on the
| controller (sometimes multiple at once) and probably have other
| abilities you can toggle on and off.
| gfody wrote:
| otoh I looked up a few games my kids play that I consider to be
| flagrantly evil (genshin, gardenscapes, emojiblitz) and they
| all score a "neutral" here
| dmonitor wrote:
| improving in skill creates investment in the game, which is
| apparently bad according to one of the bullet points.
|
| I like the concept and think this is a topic that deserves more
| attention, but the definition is broad to the point of
| meaninglessness
| atum47 wrote:
| This seems like a nice list to be on; how do I submit my game? It
| has no ads, no dark patterns...
|
| https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.victorribe...
|
| Android only for now, but an apple version could be arranged
| errcorrectcode wrote:
| Why I love retro DOS and Window games. Basically none of this
| nonsense.
| lucideer wrote:
| Great website. I'll be using this.
|
| Two small bits of UI feedback:
|
| 1. It's not extremely clear that the search field is usable
|
| 2. Feature request (probably for medium term, I get this is a
| very new project): The 4 boxes up top giving a breakdown of
| different dark patterns is cool, but it would be cooler to filter
| granularly. e.g. some might not care too much to avoid such
| things as grinding or "complete the collection", but would still
| like to avoid others.
| mdrzn wrote:
| After a quick skimming of both dark and non-dark pattern games,
| seems that most of the dark pattern ones are free with in-app
| purchases, while the non-dark pattern games are priced at a
| couple dollars, sometimes with zero in app purchases.
|
| Different revenue models.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| A while back I tried to find some good rhythm games for mobile,
| and they seemed to fall into two categories:
|
| * Unpolished games with more limited and/or less interesting
| content that you could buy for a straight fee
|
| * Fun-looking, polished games with songs I wanted to try that
| were filled with energy systems and ways to get you to spend
| money forever and ever
| jamesgeck0 wrote:
| osu!stream is a pretty good free one on iOS, but
| unfortunately they're done updating it.
| saint_angels wrote:
| I think the website would be more useful, if you can select what
| patterns you personally consider "dark" and filter by those. For
| example, I don't consider "Variable Rewards" as a dark pattern
| and don't want it to affect game scores in a list.
| wantsanagent wrote:
| Ironically variable reward schedules are the most powerful
| reward schedules for maintaining behavior in the absence of
| further rewards. I know you're not a rat/pidgeon but it's just
| funny you picked the one that classical behavioral psychology
| would say is close to the most influential.
| k__ wrote:
| I always see cool ads for games that have nothing to do with the
| games I end up installing.
|
| Would be nice to find the real games, if they even exist.
| csours wrote:
| Rule 1 of picking mobile games: If it's "free" and is sponsoring
| a YouTube video, or if it's advertised in another mobile game, or
| if it advertised in the store, DON'T PLAY IT, because it is not a
| game!
|
| I wish the stores had an "In Game Currency" filter, not just "In
| App Purchases".
| mmh0000 wrote:
| I avoid all mobile games because they're, for the most part, just
| spyware. I read though this list hoping to find something,
| clicking a few random games, everything looks pretty similar:
| Data Linked to You The following data may be collected and linked
| to your identity: Purchases Location
| Identifiers Diagnostics Other Data
|
| I'm sorry, but no. You do not need my location, identifies or
| other data. gtfo
| hnthrowaway0315 wrote:
| Some recommendations:
|
| If you enjoy Wizardry, there is a Japanese developer who
| developed a few WZ clones. Just search "Wizardry" in Google play
| and you should find it. It's called the "Wandroid" series. AFAIS
| the sales were decent (1K+ for the first game) for such a game.
|
| There are also mobile ports for classic games such as "Dungeon
| Master". But overall, I don't see Mobile as a healthy gaming
| platform.
| BudaDude wrote:
| Great website ! I was surprised to not see Magic Arena on there .
| Kiro wrote:
| I love grinding and found a lot of good games in the "Dark Games"
| section so thanks!
| yelling_cat wrote:
| Plenty of great word or number games only cost a couple of bucks
| to buy or remove ads on forever and have no other IAPs. Half of
| my family is obsessed with Wordsmyth at the moment. Most mobile
| action games are stuffed with dark patterns these days, but there
| are plenty of great ports with only one-time charges. Rockstar's
| ported Max Payne and most of their great PS2-era games: GTA III,
| Vice City, San Andreas, Bully, Max Payne, etc.
| banana_giraffe wrote:
| The two games I looked up have a handful of votes, but are wrong,
| or based on a optimistic view of a portion of the game.
|
| Which is to say, it feels like this site itself is being gamified
| to a degree. Fans of games will no doubt "vouch" for their
| favorite game, ignoring dark patterns unless they're severe.
| aeternum wrote:
| It's a great idea but terrible UI. The sort needs to be
| different, a game with a single 5.0 rating should not appear
| above a game with 10,000 reviews but a 4.99 rating.
| spamtarget wrote:
| This is really great. Is there something similar to non-gaming
| software?
| fire wrote:
| I believe https://www.darkpatterns.org/ is a general Dark
| Patterns site
| cardosof wrote:
| Recently I've bought a Nintendo Switch because I've come to the
| realization that mobile games (I play on a high end tablet) are
| inferior. Why? Because most of then rely on dark patterns to get
| you watching ads or paying lots of money to roll chances like a
| casino. Console games are more likely to provide you a quality,
| limited time, instead of the opposite -infinite low quality time.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| So this can help parents and kids with mobile games, but let's
| talk about the elephant in the room of the games we ourselves are
| addicted to or our kids keep coming back to play.
|
| When I was a teen I was addicted to World of Warcraft. I played
| for a few years before quitting. My grades dropped, my social
| life was hurting, and all for just in game items? I remember how
| worried my parents were about my screen time and the lengths they
| went to try and limit it.
|
| Some of my best friends continue to play to this day and keep
| telling me that they are bored with it and will quit next
| expansion. They are now re-playing the same game over like they
| did with me a decade ago as it's now a "classic" version.
|
| How do we help people get help they desire when these games
| create almost a combative, intervention needed type of situation?
|
| There's https://www.restartlife.com/ and other similar types of
| websites out there to help, but I feel like the problem is the
| dark patterns already have a hold on one's behavior to the point
| where only that person can be the agent of change or a major
| event happens in their life to spark the change.
| Bancakes wrote:
| You can't think in interventions. A person has to realise their
| way of life objectively and _feel_ they are making a mistake.
| They don 't _feel_ WoW is a waste of time. Same thing with
| weight loss.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| It was used in reference to a friend who has told me
| countlessly that they want to quit but they don't know how. I
| also ran into this as a teen but "woke" up from it when going
| to college.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Reminds me of the studies with drug addiction and rats. IIRC
| some of the early studies about how certain drugs were so
| addictive were done with rats who basically couldn't do
| anything else, and when you give the rats other things to do in
| their life, suddenly the drugs aren't as interesting.
|
| I think the fundamental thing about playing repetitive games
| like WoW forever is that the skinner box is more interesting
| than real life, which is more an indictment of their real life
| than the game. Not sure how to fix that, though, and certainly
| there are people who can enjoy MMO's in moderation.
| vharuck wrote:
| This may not be true for everyone, but it was for me. In
| college, I was skipping classes and ignoring friends. I just
| stayed in my room and played WoW. Then my graphics card
| kicked the bucket, and the game was unplayable. So I stayed
| in the library and read random books, skipping classes and
| ignoring friends.
|
| I wasn't addicted to WoW. I just had major depression. After
| dealing with that over many years, I got back into WoW.
| Played a lot less of it, then.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| I had the same problem with spending too much time in
| Warcraft 3 in college.
|
| I dunno if I'd say that I was depressed, exactly, but I was
| feeling overwhelmed by my classes. Like many of us here,
| I'd had a very easy time in high school, and I was unused
| to classes that would seriously challenge me, where it
| would be a struggle to learn some of the content. That,
| combined with new freedom (I was several hundred miles away
| from home, and my parents had been fairly
| sheltering/controlling) did not make for a disciplined
| student, and I ended up getting academically suspended.
|
| Came back several years later with my head on straight and
| retook the various classes I failed, mostly getting A's.
| Was actually getting an academic scholarship from my GPA by
| my last semester.
| nouveaux wrote:
| Quitting World of Warcraft may have similarities to quitting
| smoking. The thing that brings ex smokers back to smoking is
| the social component.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Interesting how some "dark patterns", especially of the
| psychological kind, are actually important elements of good game
| design.
|
| For example the "illusion of control" (The game cheats or hides
| information to make you think you're better than you actually
| are) is everywhere, and it makes better games. One classic
| example is "coyote time" in platform games. Or for a more
| specific example, in Portal, at one time, you have to quickly
| fire a portal to avoid being crushed, it is a tense situation,
| and an important part of the story. So, to avoid a stupid death
| at the worst time, if you fire the wrong portal, it silently
| switches the other portal to correct your mistake.
|
| Aesthetic Manipulations (Trick questions or toying with emotions
| or our subconscious desires) is the entire point of many games.
| We _want_ games to play with our emotions. Take a horror game for
| instance, you are sitting on a couch, at home, in the least scary
| environment you can imagine, the game has to pull all the trick
| on you if you want the scares you paid for. And no one is going
| to tell you that getting attached to characters is a bad thing
| and they would rather see them as the bunch of pixels they are.
|
| Frequency biases are all over the place too, usually in favor of
| the player. So much that when the game uses true randomness, it
| feels unfair. Good games are designed for player enjoyment, not
| to punish them with randomness.
|
| It also considers competition a dark pattern, are sports a dark
| pattern too?
| dragontamer wrote:
| Homing bullets in Halo was my introduction to the concept.
| Lesser players may not know this: but _ALL_ bullets (except
| sniper shots) home in Halo, not just Needler shots.
|
| Those crazy across-the-map pistol headshots you were doing do
| have an element of skill, but as a console platformer with
| relatively poor joystick controls (compared to accurate
| keyboard/mouse controls), it was necessary to have this auto-
| aim in order for fast-paced combat to exist.
|
| Besides, no one plays FPS games to practice joystick control or
| aim. The "fun" part of the game is positioning and team-
| dynamics.
|
| -------
|
| This isn't a dark pattern at all. Its necessary to make the
| "mundane" or "unfun" parts more automated, so that the players
| can focus on the fun parts.
| hunterb123 wrote:
| It's not the bullet that "homes", it's your crosshair that
| has a bit of stickyness.
|
| If someone walks by you slowly it'll grab on to them and
| follow it.
|
| You need a little bit of auto aim because aiming with your
| thumbs (joystick) isn't as accurate as a your wrist (mouse).
|
| It's the reason why sweep shooting works so well. Sweep your
| crosshairs across the screen, pull the trigger when it
| crosses something, it'll hold onto them slightly as it goes
| by.
|
| You can still be more accurate on a PC without autoaim vs a
| console with.
|
| > Besides, no one plays FPS games to practice joystick
| control or aim
|
| Not really true. They do to be better among their peers,
| doesn't matter if there are PC players out there, irrelevant.
|
| Auto aim is simply necessary to fix a limitation in the
| hardware, sometimes it gets in the way, most of the time it
| helps with frustration of the dead area of the joystick.
| Buttons840 wrote:
| Its probably both, but even without the auto tracking you
| describe, it's still quite possible for the space within a
| single pixel to be mostly misses. If someone positions
| their cursor in this single pixel, the game gives them the
| benefit of the doubt and counts it as a hit.
| idonotknowwhy wrote:
| It's both actually. I play mcc on PC. Controller players
| get that very obvious cross hair aim you mention, and
| keyboard/mouse players don't. That's why all the pro
| players use controller, a 150ms latency human can't compete
| with the aimbot.
|
| But there's also subtle bullet magnetism, for both
| controller and kb/mouse players.
|
| There are YouTube videos demonstrating this if you're
| interested.
|
| I prefer keyboard/mouse which puts me at a disadvantage but
| I'm not a pro player so I don't mind.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > Not really true. They do to be better among their peers,
| doesn't matter if there are PC players out there,
| irrelevant.
|
| If you really wanted to be a player without autoaim /
| bullet magnetism / all the stuff Halo "aimbots" into your
| controller, you'd be playing Counterstrike.
|
| But no, people play Halo. Because people like (subtle)
| aimbots making their headshots more consistent. Games like
| Halo (and other FPS games that came after Halo, such as
| Battlefront or Call of Duty) all take this auto-aim concept
| to varying degrees.
|
| Its now a staple of modern FPS games.
|
| ------
|
| But yes, I recall the "mouse practice" people would do to
| get better aim on Counterstrike. Those headshots don't
| happen by themselves: there's a lot of "move the mouse"
| practice in Microsoft-paint (practice moving one pixel at a
| time or whatever), and learning the positions of your
| wrist.
|
| Most people don't care about that level of dedication or
| practice. I think it suffices to say that typical FPS
| gamers today prefer the subtle aimbot to handle that level
| of muscle memory.
|
| I'm being a bit hyperbolic. Obviously the "Counterstrike"
| players and community cares about this stuff. That's why
| they still play Counterstrike. But I also am ready to admit
| that their community is a small minority of players in the
| greater FPS genre.
|
| -------
|
| "360 No Scope" happens to take advantage of this bullet
| magnetism / autoaim as well. Moving the reticle quickly
| IIRC engages the auto-aim bot a bit more.
|
| > It's the reason why sweep shooting works so well. Sweep
| your crosshairs across the screen, pull the trigger when it
| crosses something, it'll hold onto them slightly as it goes
| by.
|
| The game's "auto-aim" system effectively fires two bullets
| for each frame. If your target is "between" the two
| bullets, then it counts as a hit.
|
| Sweep-shooting is moving the crosshairs really fast, so
| that these two "bullets" are spaced as far apart as
| possible. So you've grown the auto-aim area.
| chrischen wrote:
| > But no, people play Halo. Because people like (subtle)
| aimbots making their headshots more consistent.
|
| Valorant, a counter-strike like game, is actually more
| popular than the current Halo game.
|
| And let's not forget PUBG, originally a PC-only game,
| that was wildly popular. No aimbot in there either and
| not only was there no auto-aim, bullets don't even go
| where you click because they obeyed physics!
| unfocussed_mike wrote:
| > Interesting how some "dark patterns", especially of the
| psychological kind, are actually important elements of good
| game design.
|
| Right.
|
| I really think this website is a _great_ idea, but I 'm
| surprised to see people reporting "dark" patterns in Lumino
| City, for example, when what they are actually talking about is
| a game so beautiful and gently maddening that you want to
| finish it.
| gfody wrote:
| Pacman is a good example - the ghosts are deliberately simple
| so you have a chance of avoiding them and the game is fun. I
| wouldn't call it a "dark" pattern unless the ghosts were also
| mind hacking my desire to play more with gacha techniques
| dragontamer wrote:
| Pacman is funny: one ghost was incredibly bugged and
| basically doesn't function right.
|
| They fixed the glitch in "Ms. Pacman", and the game
| definitely feels better because of it.
|
| ----------
|
| Strong Ms. Pacman players know the personalities of the
| ghosts. IIRC, Blinky (Red) aims at a direct path towards the
| player. I think the Blue-one IIRC tries to form a pincer
| attack. The other two I always forget (I'm not strong enough
| to really pick them apart at that level... but I'm strong
| enough to avoid most Blinky issues).
| gfody wrote:
| you're thinking of Clyde
| (https://ryanharveyauthor.com/2018/09/27/learning-clyde-
| sensi...) he's the most interesting one
| CapsAdmin wrote:
| I agree that these probably shouldn't be called dark patterns,
| maybe neutral?
|
| > For example the "illusion of control" is everywhere, and it
| makes better games.
|
| But what is a better game? A game that is enjoyed by most
| people, good retention or maybe a bit of both?
|
| I'm also curious to see your take on what a dark pattern is.
| frankohn wrote:
| Games with dark patterns are an overwhelming majority on Android.
| That's sad because they abuse fragile people and children.
|
| That didn't had to be that way if Google didn't promote its ad-
| based revenue model for apps and games. To my eyes they are
| responsible for the current situation.
| brnt wrote:
| Every time I open the app store on my Android phone, I am
| amazed at the utter drivel it presents me with. I guess that's
| the attention economy at work.
| sorenn111 wrote:
| Relevant plug for Lichess mobile app (I am not affiliated). It's
| a free chess app that allows for rated play against opponents.
| Tens of thousands of concurrent games. No ads or payments (I
| don't remember if I paid, but I would be happy to support). No
| bells, no whistles, just chess.
|
| I have a pseudo addictive personality and mobile phone games P2W
| have gotten me to shell out more than I'd care to admit. I've
| stopped playing all such mobile games and my "nicotine gum" game
| was getting back to my roots (elementary school chess team):
| mobile chess from Lichess.
| copperwater69 wrote:
| I used to play team fortress 2. In TF2 whenever you hit an enemy
| a bell is rung. I remember laying in bed one night and all I
| could hear was that bell ringing and I felt like one of pavlovs
| dogs.
| X6S1x6Okd1st wrote:
| That's not really considered a dark pattern, seems like an
| auditory "tetris effect"
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| If this is considered a dark pattern, you could consider almost
| anything that makes a game enjoyable to be a dark pattern.
| Because, y'know, a really enjoyable game might make you think
| about it at other times! You might even feel like going back to
| the game and playing it, because you enjoy it so much!
|
| "Wow, the controls in this game are really tight, it feels
| amazing to play...nice try, Miyamoto, you won't get me _this_
| time! " *chucks Switch out the window*
| nouveaux wrote:
| I think there is a more genuine take. The bell is not what
| makes TF2 enjoyable. The fact that GP is thinking about the
| bell instead of his game session brings into question whether
| or not it's a dark pattern.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Hard disagree. I mean, it's only one tiny part of the game,
| but sound design is a big part of what makes weapons feel
| 'chunky' or powerful or satisfying, and it sounds like this
| is similar. With the other part being that the distinct
| sound is useful from a gameplay transparency perspective,
| it means players are very aware when their shots land or
| not.
|
| I played a lot of Overwatch for a while, and it had some
| similar sound design IIRC.
| nouveaux wrote:
| I agree that sounds and details play an important part of
| the game and there are sounds that are quite famous
| (Mario). I am merely saying that it not u reasonable to
| be question whether or not sounds can be a dark pattern.
| I didn't draw any conclusions myself.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| > I didn't draw any conclusions myself.
|
| Yes, you did:
|
| > The bell is not what makes TF2 enjoyable.
|
| But yeah I otherwise agree.
| [deleted]
| dawnerd wrote:
| I believe thats an option to disable, but it's just too helpful
| to not have.
| Fernicia wrote:
| Unless they've changed it, the default is that it's off.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| When I was a kid, I played bomberman too much with some friends
| one summer.
|
| Going to sleep, I had the levels blinking through my eyes for
| 20 minutes before my mind could finally find some rest.
| jwdunne wrote:
| Happened to me with both Bejewelled and Candy Crush. I went
| to sleep with jewels and candies moving around and matching
| up. That's where I drew the line.
| duxup wrote:
| I like this idea BUT... I feel like this is too much of boolean
| checkbox type situation.
|
| I play a game that is on the F2P model. You can play free and
| it's great. If you pay you get some advantages as far as
| progression goes and some vehicles that are better than free
| vehicles (sometimes...) but IMO ultimately it's the skill of the
| player that determines your experience.
|
| The game has the usual loot boxes and stuff I don't care for. I
| just don't do that stuff.
|
| I really like the game ... it plays well and I've no problem
| throwing a couple bucks their way from time to time.
|
| I've gotten more out of it than many $60 AAA titles.
|
| If I went by check boxes the game has everything I hate, and yet
| I really enjoy playing and don't have to do any of the 'dark
| pattern' stuff.
|
| It's just to binary to say "has X is Y bad".
| kovek wrote:
| Reminds me of the games Buddha would not play
| SethTro wrote:
| I hate absolute ratings (e.g. 5/5 with 1 vote being ranked higher
| than 4.99/5 with 100 votes).
|
| All the top games seem to have 1 report giving everything
| positive ratings so that other fabulous games with more ratings
| but say a 4.97 rating are lost.
|
| https://www.evanmiller.org/how-not-to-sort-by-average-rating...
| null0pointer wrote:
| 3blue1brown has a great series of videos about how you should
| reason about these types of ratings.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8idr1WZ1A7Q
| joeframbach wrote:
| Hilarious filter pattern in use in the top games list:
| https://www.darkpattern.games/games.php?alignment=dark. At the
| top is a "Filter by Platform" list which filters _out_ , not
| _in_. I clicked the Android logo expecting, you know, to filter
| for Android. The resulting querystring when you click Android is
| "?alignment=dark&android=0". It literally filters _out_ not _in_.
| causality0 wrote:
| You want healthy mobile games? Emulate console games from before
| consoles were online. There you go, thousands of games created
| purely to be games.
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