[HN Gopher] Framework Raises $18M Series A
___________________________________________________________________
Framework Raises $18M Series A
Author : 654wak654
Score : 408 points
Date : 2022-02-01 17:13 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (frame.work)
(TXT) w3m dump (frame.work)
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The Frameworks are really good. However, the chips inside are
| disappointing, IMO.
|
| I was considering the i5 1135g7 Framework with 16gb of RAM. A
| friend of mine bought it, and it's idle power draw is of 8-9W
| with Gnome 3 and Firefox open.
|
| I decided to get a laptop with a 5800H and an RTX 3070 instead.
| My power consumption as I'm typing this comment right now is of
| 7W with a dozen tabs and an IDE, messaging, etc... open. That is
| despite a 46% larger screen, and a much faster, unlocked TDP, 8
| core CPU.
|
| That's a real shame, IMO. Combined with a 55Wh battery, it's
| quite problematic, and was a deal-breaker for me.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| My hope is that they release an ARM mainboard, so I can swap it
| in. For now though, I'd rather buy from them than the fruit
| company.
| zmk5 wrote:
| Yeah I'm really hopeful there will be a move to more power
| efficient chips in them. I love this laptop but the battery
| life from this chipset is a real downer.
| sockaddr wrote:
| Pretty excited about this. Really looking forward to getting the
| next gen.
| seanwilson wrote:
| For the posts about battery and sleep problems: do Framework have
| a recommended and well tested distro/setup they know works well?
| If not, why not?
| eatonphil wrote:
| Anyone have any good independent reviews of the laptop to
| recommend?
| cyber_kinetist wrote:
| Always check notebookcheck.net for the thorough reviews. They
| test everything meticulously, up to the build quality, monitor
| (brightness + color + response time), heat dissipation, noise,
| battery life, etc. These are probably much more important than
| raw CPU/GPU/RAM, as raw hardware specs are kinda similar around
| the same category of laptops.
|
| https://www.notebookcheck.net/Framework-Laptop-13-5-Review-I...
| mohaine wrote:
| I have one and can give a quick review. Overall, it is very
| nice, but with a few small quirks.
|
| 1)Default Ubuntu install was very laggy. Not sure what was up
| with this.
|
| 2)Default Arch install is pretty much perfect.
|
| 3)Both Ubuntu and Arch have ok battery life. Pretty much as I
| expected for an Intel laptop. (i.e. not great)
|
| 4)By default, battery drain with the lid closed is pretty bad
| though. Don't expect to leave it laying around and it to still
| have battery when you go back to it. There is probably an easy
| solution to this but I haven't had time to look into it.
| yepthatsreality wrote:
| Turning off PS2 emulation in BIOS was huge for me on battery
| savings as well as the other steps linked in other comments.
| nrp wrote:
| The lag in Ubuntu was likely a Panel Self Refresh support
| issue in that kernel. We posted a workaround here: https://gu
| ides.frame.work/Guide/Ubuntu+21.10+Installation+on...
|
| There is some community discussion on ways to optimize
| suspend power consumption as well:
| https://community.frame.work/t/ubuntu-21-10-on-the-
| framework...
| Karsteski wrote:
| Congratulations to the Framework team! :)
|
| I very much am looking forward to their next product, and I hope
| they stick to their goal of a sustainable, consumer-friendly
| laptop ecosystem.
| sireat wrote:
| Really hoping that this year brings direct Framework sales to
| European destinations.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| This is great news! Congrats to Framework!
| ashishb wrote:
| When is a 15" laptop coming out?
| dncornholio wrote:
| This website showed to me in French while I have my browser in
| English and am in the Netherlands.
|
| If I want to switch to Dutch, it won't let me. My basic
| understanding of French is that this product is not yet available
| in my country. Still horrible experience. Why not show me the
| English page?
|
| This website makes the wrong assumption someone's language is
| tied to the location.
| drdebug wrote:
| May be this will help https://frame.work/fr/fr/locale/edit
| 3np wrote:
| Unfortunately, it does not. Country and language are still
| coupled, so there's no way place a pre-order with shipping
| destination France with the website language set to English,
| for example.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30166510
|
| As mentioned there, for countries like Switzerland with more
| than two languages, whichever language chosen would be wrong
| for a majority.
|
| I'd even claim that for the market they're targeting, having
| English and nothing else for all regions would likely be way
| better than the current situation.
| berkes wrote:
| > This website makes the wrong assumption someone's language is
| tied to the location.
|
| This is a bit of a premature "remote debugging" done, though.
|
| From what I see, they use Solidus and Rails as backend. This
| does not rule out your conclusion. But it is not a typical
| thing: in Rails (and Spree, from which Solidus is forked) it
| is, for example, far easier to read out the `Accept-Language`
| header than to do geo-ip language detection. It is easier to
| the right thing than the bad. Again: not saying this makes it
| guaranteed the cause.
|
| More likely causes: location-based caching (you got a cached
| version which was generated using French), or same thing with a
| CDN.
|
| More likely, because with Rails (and Solidus, and Spree) it is
| easy to make too-simple-caches, easier to ignore a parameter
| when building a cache, than to do right thing.
| dncornholio wrote:
| What if I'm in France but speak English? It won't let us
| switch language / region separately. This is what I meant
| berkes wrote:
| I'm not dismissing the issue you encounter: it is stupid
| and ugly.
|
| I'm merely pointing out that your analysis of why it
| happens, is lacking.
|
| It reminds me of customers who submit a feature-request or
| issue in the form of a concrete solution, rather than a
| good description of the problem they encounter.
|
| "I want a dropdown with flags to switch to another
| language" vs "I cannot switch languages".
|
| The latter presumes nothing, leaves the implementation to
| product-manager, -owner, UX designers or developers. The
| former is not only bad (flags for languages are stupid) it
| has a big chance of being dismissed entirely. Big chance
| the dev sees it and thinks "hmm, out of date, we already
| have that dropdown", but that due to a bug, setup, caching,
| incompatibility, browser-plugin or whatnot, it doesn't show
| up for the client.
| dncornholio wrote:
| I might have been a bit snarky? I skipped all the
| compliments and went straight to the point, but that's
| just me. All the information is there to reproduce the
| first issue, showing the wrong language in the wrong
| country.
|
| My second statement wasn't a technical analysis but a
| principle one. One should not assume someone speaks the
| language of the country he or she is in. Plus, sometimes
| a country speaks more than 1 language.
| gibsonf1 wrote:
| Can't wait for the 15" model - hope its coming soon.
| yannoninator wrote:
| My heart sank when I saw this, is it that do we feel the need to
| keep raising money from power hungry venture capitalists?
| deltron3030 wrote:
| Is there a miniature ASIO soundcard planned for one of the slots?
| Not needing to carry an external audio interface around when
| working within a DAW is a major factor that's keeping me on MacOS
| (both pro audio and consumer use the same driver there).
| pbronez wrote:
| a high-quality DAC would be pretty neat. I'm not sure what
| connectors would be best though. RCA would be ideal, but those
| are probably too thick. Mini jack is obvious, but low quality.
|
| It'd be particularly cool to get balanced outputs.
| sprkwd wrote:
| This is something I would be interested in too.
| torginus wrote:
| Do people not remember that these things existed?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Card
|
| You could get standardised addons for laptops, but I guess they
| disappeared due to lack of interest/better alternatives.
|
| It's weird how the world goes around in circles.
| wmf wrote:
| The only things 99% of people used PCMCIA for were networking
| (modems, Ethernet, or Wi-Fi) and once that got built in
| people didn't really need slots. The long tail of I/O is now
| handled by USB/Thunderbolt dongles.
| duped wrote:
| You don't need "professional" drivers for your sound card in
| 2022, latency and stability are mostly a solved problem. There
| are a few "nice to haves" about ASIO on Windows but it's almost
| entirely useless, and it's not like Steinberg is maintaining
| ASIO anymore.
| aljarry wrote:
| I'm sceptic - I can't run anything with reasonable latency
| without using ASIO4ALL on my built-in Realtek sound card.
| Mainboard is with B450 chipset, from around 2017.
| duped wrote:
| You want to use WASAPI's exclusive mode
| botdan wrote:
| They publish the CAD files (both mechanical and electrical) on
| GitHub with instructions on how to manufacture your own
| expansion cards. I believe the interface within the expansion
| cards is just standard USB-C. If someone could manage to
| squeeze all the necessary components within the physical
| dimensions, it should be possible to make your own soundcard
| expansion card.
|
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards
| vorpalhex wrote:
| This could be done by a third party too
| mikece wrote:
| > this funding unlocks categories even more ambitious than our
| first one.
|
| A Framework car with open source ECM would be quite an ambitious
| project!
| spamizbad wrote:
| I have your laptop (4th batch). It's great! Love it! Looking
| forward to what you folks do in the future.
| ramoz wrote:
| FYI, my corporate net wont allow me to access the site: Blocked
| TLDs
| andrewgioia wrote:
| Love my Framework. Barring Apple's recent move away from the
| touchbar it's honestly the first machine I've been excited about
| in 6 or so years. The build quality is great, love the simplicity
| and design of the expansion ports, and the repair/upgrade-ability
| is huge. It's gotten me back into using Linux as a daily driver.
|
| I really hope they stay true to their vision and that this means
| expanding it into other consumer product lines.
| samwillis wrote:
| I couldn't find on their site, is the casework/cassis plastic
| or aluminium?
| bluehatbrit wrote:
| Thankfully it's aluminum!
| imilk wrote:
| Got a DIY one last week with pop_os setup and it's an amazing
| laptop to have for a reasonable price. Having used a Pixelbook
| for awhile, it's hard to ever go back from using a 3:2 screen,
| but that's exactly what you get with Framework (obviously w/
| much better specs than a Pixelbook & a full Linux install).
| vorpalhex wrote:
| How is pop on the framework? Any graphics woes?
| loganlinn wrote:
| I not gaming, but I do run a 3840x1600 external monitor
| over USB-C hub with my Framework on PopOS. I have had zero
| issues so far...
| imilk wrote:
| I don't use it for gaming, but there was a slight screen
| tear issue that can be solved in about 60 seconds. Other
| than that it works perfectly well with fractional scaling
| over 3 monitors.
| rpdillon wrote:
| Been using PopOS on my DIY version since last July. The
| battery life isn't what I hoped for (I haven't done
| exhaustive testing), but otherwise I've had a great
| experience.
|
| I might be doing something wrong, but using integer scaling
| at 2x results in a UI that's a bit too big for my tastes,
| but if I use 1x I feel it's too small, so fractional
| scaling seems to be necessary for me to get the right
| balance. It drives an external monitor at 1920x1080, and
| was just looking at buying another HDMI adapter, but I
| haven't yet been able to determine whether or not it's
| capable of driving two 1920x1080 displays in addition to
| its internal panel. That would be my ideal setup for WFH, I
| think. In case it's not obvious, my vision isn't good
| enough for me to feel strongly about HiDPI. =)
|
| But, to echo what others have said: this laptop is a clear
| winner for my use cases. I'm very pleased that they managed
| to nail modularity without sacrificing build quality and
| aesthetics.
| imilk wrote:
| It's capable of driving 2 external monitors that are
| 1920x1080 or greater. I do it every day.
| geoffeg wrote:
| I've come very close to buying a Framework laptop a few times,
| but I'd only want to run Linux on it and wasn't sure how well
| it was supported. How are things like wifi, sleep and battery
| life under Linux?
| krasin wrote:
| +1. I'm holding on buying a Framework laptop because I've
| heard that it does not support proper sleep. It would be
| great to hear if the issues with heating / losing battery
| when sleeping in a backpack are real or not.
| rcthompson wrote:
| There's 2 supported sleep modes, referred to as "s2idle"
| and "deep" in /sys/power/mem_sleep. My limited
| understanding is this:
|
| - "s2idle" = S0ix and "deep" = S3
|
| - S0ix is similar to how smartphones go to sleep by just
| idling everything and not actually sleeping. On the
| Framework it drains around 1 or 2% per hour (I haven't
| measured exactly.)
|
| - S3 sleep is the more familiar suspend-to-RAM
| functionality. The power drain is significantly less than
| S0ix.
|
| Both sleep modes work fine in Ubuntu 21.10 on my Framework.
| I actually have mine set to S0ix because while S3 sleep has
| less battery drain, it takes something like 10 seconds
| longer than S0ix to wake back up after opening the lid. And
| since I'm mostly working from home, the battery drain isn't
| an issue for me.
|
| Still, the difference between the two is significant enough
| that I kind of wish there were separate menu options for
| both. Though I realize that having "sleep" and "deeper
| sleep" menu options is not the most user-friendly design.
|
| Of course you can also get hibernate (i.e. suspend to disk
| and turn off power completely) running, but my
| understanding is that hibernate is currently incompatible
| with Secure Boot, since it's non-trivial to verify that the
| system is resuming with the same kernel as the original
| boot. So you have to choose which one you want, hibernate
| or SB.
| krasin wrote:
| Thank you for adding these details.
|
| My current Linux laptop (released in 2015) can sleep for
| about week, resume in 3-4 seconds. Am I reading your
| comment correctly that buying a Framework would degrade
| my user experience?
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| Yes. This is why I switched to simply hibernating, which
| has worked flawlessly for me. The shutdown and startup
| times are obviously a bit longer (it takes 10 seconds to
| get to the bootloader, after which its about 12 seconds
| to wake up), but since it's truly off, it can remain
| asleep indefinitely.
| rcthompson wrote:
| Does it really take only 3 seconds to resume from
| hibernate? That seems implausibly fast, faster than S3
| resume.
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| Nope! I absolutely lied!
|
| Decided to actually time it.
|
| It's 10 seconds from power button to grub bootloader,
| then 12 seconds from bootloader to login screen.
|
| I decided to run the same test coming out of S3, and it
| takes 14 seconds on my macine to go from power button to
| login screen.
|
| So waking from hibernation is roughly 8 seconds slower,
| or approximately the time it takes to get to grub.
| nafizh wrote:
| Do you have a link to a community thread or any other
| link on how to implement the hibernation? Right now,
| anytime I am closing the lid, the battery is draining
| out.
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| I just used the Arch wiki for basic setup:
|
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management/Suspend
| _an...
|
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management#Suspend
| _an...
|
| I have my machine set to suspend on lid close and
| hibernate on power button.
| rcthompson wrote:
| Yes, at least from what I've experienced, you can have
| "resume in 2 seconds" or "sleep for a week" but not both.
| (S0ix and S3 respectively)
|
| To be fair, I don't think this is Framework's fault. My
| understanding is that this is a limitation of the current
| generation of Intel CPUs, so pretty much any current-gen
| Intel-based computer will have the same issue.
| yencabulator wrote:
| > you can have "resume in 2 seconds" or "sleep for a
| week" but not both. (S0ix and S3 respectively)
|
| The way Windows laptops do this is to go from light sleep
| to deep sleep after being idle for a long period. You
| should be able to pull off the same trick in Linux.
| rcthompson wrote:
| I would actually greatly appreciate such a feature.
| Essentially hybrid sleep except that the two types of
| sleep are different kinds of low power states instead of
| suspend to RAM and disk.
| Freaken wrote:
| I'm running Xubuntu on mine and it works fine. Battery life
| goes down pretty quick when sleeping, and battery life is
| definitely lower than Windows, but I can still get 4-5 hours
| of actual work on it.
| krasin wrote:
| >Battery life goes down pretty quick when sleeping
|
| Thank you for confirming.
|
| I guess I will have to wait until an improved version of
| Framework that supports proper sleep.
| red369 wrote:
| After changing a couple of Group Policy sleep settings in
| Windows 10, and removing some expansion modules, my
| framework Laptop uses around 300 mW while asleep. That
| means it takes the whole night before it drains 5% off
| the battery (and switches to hibernate). I haven't yet
| replicated this in Linux, but I assume it's possible
| (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). Im not sure yet
| whether it was the settings changes, or certain expansion
| modules which affect standby drain the most, but I've
| seen forum discussions where people were making progress
| narrowing it down, and I think the framework peeps were
| going to look into it. I will do more experimenting
| today. Unrelated, but I have been most impressed with the
| framework guys already adding two BIOS settings I love
| based on other peoples' feedback (dimming the power led &
| max battery charge).
| EB66 wrote:
| I was very happy when they released the max battery
| charge BIOS enhancement so quickly. A very positive sign
| for future development. It was the most requested feature
| on the Framework community boards and they delivered it
| in a matter of months.
| krasin wrote:
| This sounds very promising!
| yencabulator wrote:
| This may help: mem_sleep_default=deep
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/ubuntu-21-04-on-the-
| framework...
| andrewgioia wrote:
| Fedora 35 is essentially fully supported and I believe their
| recommended distro[1]. I installed this to test it out and
| OOTB is was perfect, I may switch to this full time as it has
| the best vanilla gnome experience too (IMO). The other one
| they indicate that has near full support after install is
| Ubuntu 21.04.
|
| FWIW I've been using elementaryOS 6.1 for most of the time
| and it's been really nice too. Full disclosure though it was
| pretty DIY; wifi did not work right away (I had to upgrade
| the kernal), I had to install some software to enable the
| fingerprint reader, and I needed to manually enable
| fractional scaling.
|
| I definitely recommend it to run Linux, the community is
| fantastic and another strong selling point.
|
| [1] https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop
| pkulak wrote:
| I'm still waiting on a display that will 2x nicely.
| Fractional scaling on Linux is not my idea of a good time.
| It's crazy, because they only need to add a couple hundred
| lines of resolution and it would be perfect.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> It's crazy, because they only need to add a couple
| hundred lines of resolution and it would be perfect._
|
| To be fair, it's not Framework's fault that fractional
| scaling in Linux is not great.
| pkulak wrote:
| True. But I also feel like 2x is inherently better than
| 1.7x. I'm not a graphics expert, but there's gotta be a
| reason Apple has stuck to 2x at all costs with every
| machine they've made for the last 8 years.
| pjerem wrote:
| I'm not sure of what you meant but Apple supports
| fractional scaling since Retina screens appeared a decade
| ago. And it supports it really well. It's absolutely not
| stuck at 2x.
| rozab wrote:
| Elevated Systems did a comprehensive setup guide a couple
| days ago. There are a some extra steps to go through, but it
| seems to work well with Ubuntu 21.10.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jibqw5C3gk8&t=15m45s -
| timestamp to where he discusses fixing sleep issues
| krasin wrote:
| Thank you for link to the video. I watched the relevant
| part, where it's suggested to set
| pcie_aspm_on_bat=powersupersave. According to the Framework
| forums, this is not helping and people see 7-8W power
| consumption while in this "powersupersave" mode ([1]).
|
| It sounds like the setting is there, but it does not work.
| Framework needs to fix that.
|
| 1. https://community.frame.work/t/issues-with-power-
| usage/12261
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| If you read the rest of that thread, you'll find the
| issue was resolved and it was not an issue with the
| laptop:
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/issues-with-power-
| usage/12261...
|
| > Issue was that I was running linux-zen, strangely. With
| linux-zen, the CPU wouldn't get past C3 and idle power
| usage was 7-13W. With regular linux, the CPU reaches C8
| and idle power usage is ~5W. Strange that linux-zen did
| that, but ok ig
|
| The other main culprit is whether or not you can
| successfully enable PSR for the display. IIRC, the laptop
| cannot hit C8 or C10 sleep states without PSR enabled,
| even if you have the ASPM power saving mode enabled.
|
| Speaking for myself, running Debian unstable, after
| lowering the display brightness, with the right settings
| my laptop easily hits 2.5-3W idle.
| krasin wrote:
| Nice! Thank you for extracting that. I missed it.
| nzealand wrote:
| > The build quality is great, love the simplicity and design of
| the expansion ports, and the repair/upgrade-ability is huge.
|
| I also love the expansion ports.
|
| I am really glad they have raised a series A, because in 3-5
| years I want the freedom to upgrade the motherboard without
| creating a ton of e-waste.
|
| https://frame.work/blog/the-upgradeable-mainboard
| lijogdfljk wrote:
| Yea i think they're going to be my next laptop when it's time
| for me to upgrade.
| ncallaway wrote:
| I can't remember exactly the situation I was in with power
| cords and devices, but at least once the ability to just swap
| which side of my computer the USB-A port was on was extremely
| useful.
| palijer wrote:
| I'm a biased Framework owner, but fantastic news and congrats to
| anyone hanging out here.
|
| I feel there has been a growing market for a company like this
| over the last few years with the RTR movement and upgrade cycles
| for hardware delivering less than they previously did.
| biehl wrote:
| Maybe a next step could be a router like
| https://eu.protectli.com/product/fw6e/ ?
|
| Protectli is very nice, but the area could use a push forward.
| matty0x17 wrote:
| I would buy a framework in a heartbeat if they add a decent hz
| display and a few other comfort features I'm accustomed to from
| running linux on a long line of Razer and the Asus G-series of
| gaming laptops. 120hz and a 1650ti would make this thing amazing
| and wouldn't push the price point very far at all (especially if
| it's optional).
| fancyfredbot wrote:
| I find it interesting we need a start-up to cater for the desire
| for a repairable and upgradeable laptop. Dell, HP, Asus, MSI etc
| have already got the money and the expertise. If there's really a
| market here why haven't they already taken it? My guess is that
| the market is small though disproportionately represented on HN.
| wmf wrote:
| There appear to be several ThinkPad models that are just as
| repairable as Framework but maybe they don't count because
| they're black. Framework's real niche appears to be _repairable
| shiny aluminum laptops (that don 't run macOS)_. Compare
| https://download.lenovo.com/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/t14s_gen2_x13...
| and
| https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Mainboard+Replacement+Guide/...
|
| Dell recently showed a repairable concept
| https://www.delltechnologies.com/en-us/blog/pushing-the-boun...
| that gives pretty strong "don't buy Framework, just wait for us
| to catch up" vibes. Discussion:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29569470
| caslon wrote:
| A market done correctly can cannibalize another market, and
| that's very much a bad thing when you own both markets. You
| want to attempt ventures that can get _new_ customers, rather
| than moving a subset of customers onto a platform where they
| will spend less money. Forcing people to upgrade often makes
| more money. Capitalism doesn 't optimize for efficiency, it
| optimizes for revenue.
|
| Small companies are a great tool to squeeze out market
| inefficiencies. Just look at EVs, which have been useful for
| decades and only recently seen companies spending large amounts
| of money on them as a (formerly) small company was laying the
| marketing groundwork.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| > We're not ready to share what the next products are just yet,
| but this funding unlocks categories even more ambitious than our
| first one. We have a detailed plan in place for the next two
| years and napkin sketch ideas going out a couple of decades.
|
| It'll be _really_ interesting to see where they go next. Given
| that they 're already in computer and custom board space, I'd
| make a guess that it's going to be routers - similarly embedded
| devices and they'd make a great option for replaceable parts
| (i.e. WiFi, connection options etc).
| ttty wrote:
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| I hope they start by offering larger laptops - I tend to prefer
| 17". I was looking at Framework when buying a new laptop last
| year but as they only offered the smaller model (and weren't
| shipping to the EU at the time) I went with a Dell. Obviously I
| hope my current laptop lasts as long as possible but if/when it
| gives up the ghost I would be very interested in buying a
| Framework if they are offering a 17" by then.
| imilk wrote:
| I can't help but think it'd be a smart move for them to either
| merge with System76 or become joint developers of Pop OS. If
| they could make Pop become a 1st class OS on Framework, they'd
| be able to provide a Linux experience that is just about as
| smooth out of the box as any Mac or Windows.
|
| Pop OS pretty much works without fuss on Framework, but taking
| care of the final 5-10% of tuning would make all the difference
| for many people to make the switch.
| WesolyKubeczek wrote:
| I would sure like to have a thick mobile workstation with a
| better battery, a good initial selection of built-in ports and
| an ability to add those expansion cards too (think specialist
| ports like video input or a serial port).
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| I would love for them to expand their laptop offerings to
| include something a bit more powerful. It seems like a much
| easier expansion rather than moving into routers.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| I assume they're going to expand their laptop offering either
| way, but adding a larger model is probably not want they mean
| with more ambitious :)
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| I figured adding in a swappable GPU would be fairly
| ambitious, which is something I'd expect in a model like
| this.
|
| As opposed to just taking what they have and putting it in
| a larger form factor, which, yeah, doesn't seem terribly
| ambitious.
| distalx wrote:
| I hope they also launch modular tablet.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Ever since the framework came out, I've been half-hoping for my
| laptop to die. It really is like someone made exactly the laptop
| I want, but I really don't need a new laptop at this point, and I
| tend to use laptops for 5-10 years. Here's hoping that Framework
| is still around say 2-7 years from now!
| DerArzt wrote:
| I am in a similar situation. I would love to purchase one, but
| my current laptop works fine and I don't need to make more
| e-waste due to cool new shiny thing! But they will stay on my
| mind.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| I suppose that's a disadvantage peculiar to manufacturers
| targeting reduced waste: their customers aren't going to
| upgrade as often...
| globalise83 wrote:
| As someone whose first task on buying a new laptop every
| ten years is to install the latest Ubuntu LTS version, a
| company which makes machines that work perfectly with
| Ubuntu and have a life of around 10 years will have me as a
| customer for life.
| bhelkey wrote:
| If you are a 38 year old man, actuarial tables suggest
| that this translates to 4 more laptops over 40 years[1].
| I believe their point is that this does not make you a
| particularly valuable customer.
|
| I would argue that there is value in a brand that
| consumers trust to last for a long time. For example, if
| Framework launched a printer, you might be tempted to pay
| a premium for a product you knew was high quality and
| repairable.
|
| [1] https://www.annuityadvantage.com/resources/life-
| expectancy-t...
| bitigchi wrote:
| I wish they'd allow configuring the keyboard layout, at least for
| most spoken languages of the world.
| yencabulator wrote:
| The selection of countries seems pretty good to me:
| https://frame.work/marketplace/keyboards
|
| The real genius of Framework is that it doesn't even have to be
| the Framework company manufacturing your favorite keyboard,
| it's just a standard form factor.
|
| I personally would buy a replacement ortholinear keyboard, if
| one was available.
| Liskni_si wrote:
| > The real genius of Framework is that it doesn't even have
| to be the Framework company manufacturing your favorite
| keyboard, it's just a standard form factor.
|
| Not sure how that's useful as the form factor doesn't really
| allow for a 7-row keyboard, or full-sized arrow keys. Which
| is a real missed opportunity in my opinion: a laptop (any
| computer, really) is primarily a device with inputs
| (keyboard, touchpad) and outputs (display) so naturally you
| want those to be as good as possible (and if there isn't a
| 99.9+% consensus on what that means, modular/configurable) as
| that's what you'll end up using for hours every day. Why
| compromise on a single "pretty" layout of physical keys?
| _joel wrote:
| I'm sure a certain youtuber will be happy with this news!
| [deleted]
| ziggus wrote:
| Is this the company that re-invented the PCMCIA slot, but
| completely proprietary?
| chrisseaton wrote:
| I think it's just normal USB-C dongles but installed in the
| chassis, isn't it?
| m0ngr31 wrote:
| Is USB-C proprietary now?
| nrp wrote:
| Yep, but without the proprietary part. We have released
| reference designs under Creative Commons:
| https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards
| loudmax wrote:
| I think the recessed USB-C dongles are a fantastic idea. I'd
| love for this to become a standard feature on laptops.
|
| Can miscellaneous third parties can create and sell their own
| Framework-compatible expansion modules?
|
| Can other manufacturers make laptops with Framework-
| compatible expansion slots?
| wishinghand wrote:
| Can something be open source and proprietary?
| nisegami wrote:
| In the software world, this is usually described as "source-
| available", where the source is, well, available, but the
| license has restrictions such as not allowing commercial use.
| rvz wrote:
| Yes.
|
| Example: https://github.com/commaai/openpilot
| kmeisthax wrote:
| Some people use the word "proprietary" to mean "different" or
| "nonstandard" rather than "is someone else's property and
| costs money to use". It's a weird bit of semantic drift.
| matthewmacleod wrote:
| A USB-C slot with publicly-available and open-source CAD and
| specs on GitHub
| (https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionCards) is
| basically the _least_ proprietary format ever created.
| goodpoint wrote:
| Is the hardware entirely open source and free from patents?
|
| I'm talking about schematics, PCB layouts and 3D models of the
| chassis.
|
| Nothing proprietary or patented?
| popol12 wrote:
| It would be amazing if they could also sell repairable household
| electrical goods like washing machine, dishwasher, etc - in the
| future.
|
| These are plagued by planed obsolescence. I would totally pay for
| repairable ones even with a premium. Imagine a dishwasher that
| you can hack and program yourself :D
| torginus wrote:
| Why do you think these are not repairable? More often than not,
| these things use PCBs that have been manufactured for decades,
| with multiple manufacturers often using the same designs. I've
| just repaired the power supply of my fridge, but if I wanted
| to, I could've bought a compressor for it, either new or
| refurb.
|
| Imo the main issue, is that these things are so cheap that
| replacement is cheaper than repair labor + cost of parts.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| Yes, I was looking at replacing the bathroom air vents that
| were likely installed when my house was built 50 years ago,
| and the manufacturer still makes the replacement motor and
| fan assembly for the one I got. Replacing these two parts
| costs about 50% more than buying a brand new one at home
| depot, but the fact that these lasted 50 years before needing
| replacement has convinced me to spend the extra money.
| chana_masala wrote:
| Well, repairable is a spectrum and for someone inexperienced
| it sounds quite daunting to repair their fridge's power
| supply. However the repairability that e.g. a Framework
| laptop has (swapping out new parts) is much simpler and
| requires little expertise.
| IshKebab wrote:
| There are lots of reasons they aren't repairable. Lack of
| documentation and debug access is probably the biggest one.
| My washing machine died, and it looked like some components
| on the PCB blew. I bought a replacement for around PS50
| (already a crazy move) but sadly it didn't work. Not really
| anywhere you can go from there unless you're a professional
| washing machine repair man.
|
| My fridge also had some kind of fault with the drainage tube
| (kept freezing up) but there's simply no way to access it.
| The back panel is not removable.
|
| > PCBs that have been manufactured for decades ... same
| designs.
|
| Absolutely not the case. Go and look up any washing machine
| control board. They're different for almost every model.
|
| Washing machines & fridges may be better; I've never had to
| take one apart.
|
| The only good solution to this problem I've come up with is
| requiring _manufacturers_ to dispose of unwanted appliances
| _for free_. That way they have at least some incentive to
| make them last for a long time and be easily recyclable /
| repairable.
| torginus wrote:
| I'm not an expert on washing machine-ology, so sorry if I
| sound like a smartass, but a quick google search confirmed
| my suspicions - lower end washing machines tend to use the
| same PCBs, a telltale sign being that the controls/displays
| tend to be in the same place.
|
| To be honest, even if you can't find a PCB replacement, a
| faulty PCB can be fixed by inspecting the components and/or
| replacing them. Usually it costs only a couple of dollars
| and an hour of soldering time, less if you are good at it.
|
| Microcontrollers obviously are not as easy, but as luck
| would have it, my old (early 2000s) machine doesn't even
| have one - it is driven by those rotary encoder dial
| thingies that move in a circle and open/close various
| traces to begin/end program steps.
| pbronez wrote:
| > a faulty PCB can be fixed by inspecting the components
| and/or replacing them. Usually it costs only a couple of
| dollars and an hour of soldering time, less if you are
| good at it.
|
| That's a pretty steep DIY requirement. Wonder how robust
| the market is for these kinds of repair skills. Hard to
| know when you have a problem like this, who to call about
| it, and how much it'll cost to fix.
| torginus wrote:
| I mean yeah. But hunting down a skilled repairman as you
| said, or browsing for a new machine that fits in the
| exact same place as the old one, and then wrestling with
| that hulking beast is no easy task either.
| js2 wrote:
| I have a double-oven and double dish-drawers from Fisher &
| Paykel that I purchased in 2004 that I can still source parts
| for.
|
| I was able to source parts for my 2004 Whirlpool french-door
| fridge until the sealed system finally died two years ago. That
| required a new fridge, sadly.
|
| We replaced our washing machine and dryer a couple years ago,
| but that was only to upgrade to HE models. I could have
| repaired the circa 2000 washing machine. Not sure if the new HE
| models will be as easy to repair.
| phlipski wrote:
| https://www.fixyourboard.com/
|
| These guys have built a nice little business fixing appliance
| pcb's. Most household appliances are fairly repairable given
| the time/patience. The issue becomes the cost/benefit. I have a
| kitchenaid dishwasher that is about 7 years old now. About 3
| years ago the heater control element broke and it cost me about
| ~$250 to fix. It would have cost a repairman ~$350. The
| dishwasher itself only cost $500. So if it breaks again I'm not
| sure I'll so readily try and fix it...
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| The dishwashers I've seen have been super repairable. I
| recently fixed my parent's Whirlpool because the circulation
| pump had an intermittent fault. Once I diagnosed the problem,
| removing it took a single screw, and a new pump was $120 from a
| local appliance parts store. Diagnosis was by far the hardest
| part, but only because I had no idea how a dishwasher even
| worked. The actual repair was straightforward.
| kelvie wrote:
| Wow that's quite a contrast with my Miele -- the pump broke
| (after 5 years of basically 2x daily use), and apparently it
| would have cost $600 for the pump, and $300 for the labour,
| so they just upsold us a new dishwasher (which only costs
| $1200 for the entry model, which is what this was), in which
| case they'd waive the labour charge.
| gnyman wrote:
| There are a few companies who are focusing on
| sustainability/repairabilty, you just have to look (sometimes
| very hard) and then take the risk that the company won't be in
| business in 5 years.
|
| One example I came across recently after hearing how hard Dyson
| vacuums are to repair is Lupe https://lupetechnology.com/
|
| "Someone" should make a list of these companies, or maybe there
| is already some site or place which focuses on quality-
| repairability-longetivity?
| VTimofeenko wrote:
| There is a community on Reddit called "BuyItForLife"[1] with
| such focus.
|
| [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/BuyItForLife/
| NikolaeVarius wrote:
| My only wish is for an AMD version.
| abrowne wrote:
| > _this funding unlocks categories even more ambitious than our
| first one._
|
| Any guesses?
|
| I'd love to buy a Framework phone -- if they can guarantee
| Android updates.
| mikece wrote:
| I would love a Framework phone with the option to have Graphene
| OS pre-installed.
| galbar wrote:
| what about fairphone?
| Jaepa wrote:
| Modular phones are especially hard. There is both an power
| optimization & physical size constraints. Neither of which
| square with modular replacements.
| fsflover wrote:
| Consider Linux phones instead (Librem 5 or Pinephone). Those
| are repairable and with lifetime software updates unlike any
| Android or Graphene OS.
| saint_angels wrote:
| While other comments are wishing for the company to expand
| outside of laptops, I really hope they won't loose their focus.
| There is so much they can improve on in laptop space.
| unlog wrote:
| I remember finding this laptop when searching for a new one. I
| loved it, but I wanted AMD instead of Intel. I ended buying an
| Asus G713QR, gaming laptop, but very powerful and with an amazing
| screen.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| One reason I'm hopeful about Framework is that I've recently
| realized I care a lot about keyboard / key caps.
|
| When I shopped for a development laptop recently, some gaming
| laptops were really good matches for my needs. But the
| keyboards / key caps were squishy rubbery things that I
| couldn't get used to.
|
| It would be awesome each buyer could tweak the laptop design
| based on personal preferences, where large manufacturers could
| never justify selling that exact config due to low demand.
| danr4 wrote:
| Please make a 17 inch laptop (a-la LG Gram)
| Karsteski wrote:
| A larger version would be great, but I imagine it's not the
| direction they're going to go initially, given that they
| already have an attractive laptop for sale.
| kodah wrote:
| The first time I set eyes on their modular port tech, I knew this
| company was going places. I have a Lenovo X1 Carbon but I think
| my next laptop will be a framework if I continue to hear good
| things. Any statements on quality since people have had them for
| a bit now?
| m0ngr31 wrote:
| Love mine. Been my favorite laptop ever. Haven't touched my
| Macbook since (but I never enjoyed MacOS so that wasn't hard).
| canadaduane wrote:
| I've enjoyed this laptop a lot, with build quality and ease-of-
| DIY my top likes. The only issue I've had is with the touchpad
| mechanical click not registering, but they replaced it and I'm
| happy with it now.
| TheMagicHorsey wrote:
| I really wish there was a vendor that makes a high-performance
| ARM-based SOC available to third-parties. The problem with x86
| laptops these days is that they feel a generation behind Apple
| laptops in both power consumption and performance. This doesn't
| have to be the case. Apple has a great hardware team, but they
| don't have a monopoly on ARM. There could be competitors out
| there doing what AMD and Intel won't do.
| greenie_beans wrote:
| i'm conflicted over wanting a framework and wanting a mac with
| the m1 chip. if this were to happen one day, does anybody know
| if a framework with intel would be able to use a chip like
| this? (i hardly know anything about hardware so pls school me)
| saint_angels wrote:
| I heard the framework works with linux distros well, can anyone
| recommend places to check laptops linux support in general?
| Karsteski wrote:
| /r/framework is quite helpful. From what I've seen on there,
| any distro w/ an up-to-date kernel works well. So Fedora 35,
| for example.
| _joel wrote:
| You might be best picking a distro and then looking at the
| support specifically for that. The distros that move quicker
| with the times are probably more suitable, but it's always
| possible to get stuff like debian stable running on cutting
| edge hardware, with some effort with kernel and userland. It'll
| be typical stuff like wifi and gpu support but, at least in my
| experience, they can generally be made to work. I'm sure you'd
| be fine with Arch or latest Ubuntu etc.
| nrp wrote:
| Edited: We've posted in the February Who's Hiring thread too:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30165535
| dang wrote:
| Please do that in the Who Is Hiring thread instead. The Feb
| thread is just out today:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30164271.
| JimBlackwood wrote:
| It's always a shame such cool positions are US only. Would love
| to find some of these kind of companies in the EU (or more US
| positions that more easily allow non-US workers)
| nrp wrote:
| We're currently hiring in the US and Taiwan, where we have
| entities set up. We will likely set up an EU entity to open
| up hiring there too, but we don't have a timeline for that at
| the moment.
| Karsteski wrote:
| Will you be opening up any Canada positions? I would love
| to be able to apply in say a year.
| hackerlytest wrote:
| Maybe Linus can also present the idea to them. Since he's
| now a shareholder and possibly their most popular owner.
| sharikous wrote:
| From an Israeli: I wish you will set up an entity in Israel
| too! Or, more modestly, that you open ordering here.
| OJFord wrote:
| I suppose the gripe is more that 'CA or remote' means
| (typically, and as here) 'in the US'; whereas 'our US and
| Taiwanese entities are hiring' doesn't _have_ to mean that
| (though I appreciate it 's a lot simpler) - you can be
| British or German or whatever, in that home country, and
| employed by a US entity.
|
| Anyway, congrats; eagerly awaiting my UK pre-order!
| biztos wrote:
| You probably already know this, but "an EU entity [for]
| hiring" means very different things for EU citizens than
| for permanent residents or visa holders/seekers.
|
| Since the EU is not an immigration union, as a permanent
| resident of Germany I am only allowed to work in Germany,
| not in any other EU country. Granted, I could probably get
| a work visa for another EU country, but if I wanted to
| remain a German resident things would get tricky very fast.
|
| For fresh or prospective immigrants it's generally less
| favorable; and every EU country has different regulations
| as well as attitudes to immigrants from different regions.
|
| Thus I recommend, when you get to that point, that you do
| some research about which EU countries are most
| advantageous to you and your potential workforce, and open
| subsidiaries in the countries that make sense. Probably
| more than one, out of the gate. Because missing out on the
| pool of immigrant talent in Europe is probably not your
| goal.
|
| And congratulations on the funding!
| JimBlackwood wrote:
| Super cool! I wish you good luck! Firmware engineer
| definitely sounds great to me, hopefully the type of job I
| can steer my career towards in the future! :)
| tluyben2 wrote:
| For the EU it would probably make more sense to hire remote
| freelance. Otherwise it is quite a hassle.
| laurex wrote:
| You might check out New Horizons.
| https://nhglobalpartners.com/ Disclaimer: I've not used
| them (and have no affiliation), just seems relevant.
| dom96 wrote:
| Definitely please at least consider hiring EU remote.
| Really exciting positions I'd even be willing to relocate
| for, but chances are the US visa system will make that too
| difficult.
| vosper wrote:
| You might want to look at Employer of Record services like
| Deel, if you are considering setting up country/regional
| entities just to enable hiring?
|
| (No affiliation with Deel, but about to start a new remote
| job with them as EoR)
| echelon wrote:
| I'd love to see a phone and eInk notebook (like Remarkable) in
| your future. If you can create an ecosystem of products, you'll
| capture much of the tech field.
|
| Very excited for your raise!
| ignoramous wrote:
| Congratulations!
|
| Can you please blog a bit on origins of framework? I read in
| press releases elsewhere that you 3D printed the prototype
| laptop. It'd be very interesting to see how such startups get
| off the ground. Given that multiple tech-shops have tried and
| binned plans for modular hardware, framework's early success is
| remarkable... yet, the story of its nascent stages remain
| elusive.
| nrp wrote:
| I wrote a blog post yesterday about how I think about
| hardware startups, which generalizes some of how Framework
| has worked so far: https://eclecti.cc/bytes/what-hardware-is-
| hard-really-means
|
| I would like to write more about Framework as well, but will
| give it more time to be more sure of what worked and what
| didn't.
| sergiotapia wrote:
| I hope you guys crush it, you can become the next Apple - the
| future of computing!
| carlhjerpe wrote:
| If they IPO they'll be evil like everyone else eventually. I
| hope they become the next developer choice, the market is
| definitely big enough.
| 3np wrote:
| Congrats!
|
| Some feedback from a global visitor-who-tried-but-gave-up-to-
| preorder:
|
| _Please_ decouple preferences for language /location/currency.
| You may be surprised about the number of people in your target
| market who aren't native speakers of the local language in
| their place of residence, and using credit cards denominated in
| a foreign currency (sometimes with ridiculous conversion
| rates).
|
| Having them default to the same might be reasonable but never
| make hard assumptions about your visitors like that.
|
| Look at iherb.com and aliexpress for two sites that IMO get
| this right.
| fckthisguy wrote:
| Absolutely! A great suggestion. Even more important for
| countries with multiple dominant languages. Switzerland comes
| to mind: four official languages, a pretty even split between
| French, German, and Italian, and a large number of non-native
| speakers who prefer English.
|
| It drives me crazy when these are coupled because they have
| to make an opinionated choice that, for the Swiss use case,
| has to be wrong for the majority of users.
| victor9000 wrote:
| Any distant plans to branch out to other consumer products
| beyond laptops?
| mrfusion wrote:
| What linux distro works best in a framework? Any headaches with
| drivers?
| netant wrote:
| I purchased one last year and it's been great so far.
|
| Pros: - price. I have spare RAM and NVME ssd so this brings the
| price further down - modular port...
|
| Cons: - display/hinge is not very stable - touch pad is not as
| good as macbook's. I can't reliably click-and-drag using a singe
| hand (thumb finger to click, then index finger to drag). On
| macbook this gesture works perfectly fine.
|
| Wish there is a bigger version, and/or a swappable battery!
| ncallaway wrote:
| Very happy owner of the laptop, but the display hinge is the
| only thing I don't like about it.
|
| It's just a bit too lose, to the point that the screen will
| slowly fold flat over the course of an hour on my lap. It's
| also just lose enough that it transfers a lot of vibrations on
| my desk (from typing) into wobble on the camera during screen-
| shares.
|
| If that hinge were just a bit tighter, I'd have no complaints
| about it. It's a great laptop.
| roland35 wrote:
| I love my framework as well! My main con is the battery life,
| although part of that is because I set the max charge % to 90
| to hopefully protect long-term life
| durovo wrote:
| "I can't reliably click-and-drag using a singe hand" --- Does a
| single-finger double tap and drag not work?
| rpdillon wrote:
| Once I learned this gesture, dragging with the touchpad went
| from "horribly frustrating" to "so easy I can do it without
| thinking". Would be curious if/how it doesn't work for some
| folks.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| Exactly the same story here.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Try index finger to click, middle finger to drag. That's always
| been my habit.
| dncornholio wrote:
| It's worse than using the thumb because you have less range
| and it's a lot less comfortable. Thumb-click index-drag is
| for me also a requirement.
| CSDude wrote:
| I wish I could buy one in Turkey, but probably our customs would
| add %80 markup over it considering if they'd clear it in a month.
| I love my Mac, but Framework excites me and even Thinkpad's are
| not going well. I miss my XFCE with Arch.
| fyzix wrote:
| I wished they took it one step at a time rather than tackling so
| many issues at once. Making a repairable laptop would be enough
| to jumpstart the mission.
|
| Making it repairable, upgradable, customizable and using morally
| sourced raw materials seems like too much for a start-up to
| handle. If they focused on 1 or 2 goals at a time, I reckon
| they'd be able to manufacture these faster and cheaper.
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| > If they focused on 1 or 2 goals at a time, I reckon they'd be
| able to manufacture these faster and cheaper.
|
| ... they went from concept to manufacture of a completely new
| and novel laptop design in a _year_. The result, in that year,
| is a laptop that has a premium feel but is as cheap or cheaper
| than other competitors in the space, while also hitting all the
| marks on their mission of repairability and consumer focus.
|
| This is, as far as I can tell, a complete, out-of-the-park
| success. I can't imagine how they could've executed any more
| flawlessly.
| bradfa wrote:
| It's a similar mission to Fairphone. I imagine as soon as you
| try to do any one of these things in your product design
| (repair, upgrade, customize, sourcing, etc) then you get into
| suppliers, supply chains, and price points where doing all the
| rest of them is effectively straight forwards and not horribly
| costly.
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