[HN Gopher] A Minimum Viable Computer, or Linux for $15
___________________________________________________________________
A Minimum Viable Computer, or Linux for $15
Author : kotaKat
Score : 541 points
Date : 2022-01-26 16:04 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (bbenchoff.github.io)
(TXT) w3m dump (bbenchoff.github.io)
| guessbest wrote:
| We had something like this in 2001. It was called the Agenda vr3
| and it ran a full X session with the FLTK in 16meg of RAM.
| However, the history of PDA's that run linux is mostly lost since
| LinuxDevices.com doesn't really exist anymore. I owned several of
| these including Agenda VR3, Vtech Helio, Zaurus, etc. It was
| quite a nice system even without wireless unless you count IrDA.
| It used FTP over RS-232 for installing software using a primitive
| packaging system. The little linux distros for these devices
| didn't really take off until the Zaurus SL-5500 took off by going
| on sale for $220 on the home shopping network in 2003, and
| someone developed the packing system called ipk which was a
| little more intelligent and reminiscent of Slackware's packing
| system.
|
| https://www.techrepublic.com/article/marrying-linux-and-the-...
|
| Agenda VR3 specs : Processor: 66 MHz 32 bit NEC VR4181 MIPS;
| Memory: 8 MB of RAM plus 16 MB of Flash Memory
|
| NOTE: This could play mp3's while running an FTP server.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20030219081647/http://www.linuxd...
|
| Zaurus packages : https://www.zaurus.org.uk/download/cacko/feed/
|
| Zaurus specs : Intel SA-1110 StrongARM processor running at 206
| MHz, has 64 MB of RAM and 16MB Flash
|
| NOTE: This could play MP3's, MP4 at 320x240, run an SSH server,
| etc.
|
| I'm surprised there aren't more systems out there, but a lot of
| these linux devices in the 2000's (the aught years) were just
| other systems cannibalized for linux like the iPaq line.
| Eventually some people put this together in to something called
| Familiar Linux and trying to standardize the whole thing.
| handhelds.org doesn't exist anymore, though.
|
| https://www.drdobbs.com/packing-linux-on-ipaq/199200756
|
| The whole openembedded (OE) system showed promise and came from
| the guy who made Gentoo, but it got mostly abandoned and merged
| in to other projects (YOCTO) when he went to work for Microsoft.
|
| https://www.openembedded.org/wiki/Main_Page
| https://docs.yoctoproject.org/
|
| I kind of gave up on this all when I started developing for
| iPhone OS 3. It just worked with regards to wireless, and I
| realized I was more interested in the application layer anyway.
| Before 2020, you could get an iPhone 5s for about $20 on ebay, so
| it really had all I wanted including GPS.
|
| There was someone who put together a site called
| http://pocketworkstation.org/ which isn't in the internet archive
| (archive.org) that had a whole LaTeX system working in Window
| Maker on the various Zaurus models. It was a scaled down desktop
| with 7 bit fonts, but it could be VNC into and used. Fun times.
|
| EDIT: formatting and specs for low end devices
| numpad0 wrote:
| Someone had XFree86 Server ported to Zaurus' Qtopia environment
| as an app. I didn't understand what `export DISPLAY=:0` meant
| back then but I could just do that. That was objectively far
| more awesome compared to their later Windows Mobile offerings
| developed in cooperation with WILLCOM.
|
| e: ran a search on my disk for "\\.ipk" and got a few files.
| Emacs, gtk2, konqueror, minicom, nano, prism3 driver, xmms,
| XQt, Blackbox ... why did I have `make` for Zaurus!? There is
| no way I can satisfy GPL obligations but do anyone want these
| archived? Right now it's on a nonredundant storage.
| anthk wrote:
| I had a zipitz2 with OpenWRT and some SDL bsaed UI. I played
| nethack, chatted on IM via bitlbee and some light IRC client...
| good times.
|
| If people says a 500Mhz and 16MB are not enough to play music,
| they couldn't be more wrong.
| guessbest wrote:
| Not only that but these were older processors which in 2003
| and before, it was a SoC in name only. They didn't put 30 to
| 60 cores on these embedded processors until the mid-2000's.
| bserge wrote:
| 7thaccount wrote:
| I don't need it, but want it :)
| marktangotango wrote:
| > Allwinner F1C100s SoC
|
| I figured it would be one of these parts, at this point they are
| pretty old, but capable. And available apparently.
| omair_inam wrote:
| What I'd love for someone to share is the MVP Linux machine I can
| use to run PiHole... Starter Raspberry Pis (e.g. by Canakit) ...
| are >$150 CAD on amazon.ca which just seems so expensive.
| iso1210 wrote:
| Mine runs on a years-old Raspberry Pi Model B Rev 2. A
| Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ (which has an ethernet port), SD Card
| and case is about PS40 at pihut, that's CAD70
|
| A Zero 2 W with wireless is half that or less including the
| case, SD Card and power supply.
| sigstoat wrote:
| the canakit packages are luxury items with a bunch of stuff you
| don't need.
|
| get a pi, an sd card, a power supply, and a cardboard box to
| shove it into. you don't need any of the other stuff they
| include.
|
| also get an old pi, not one of the most recent. maybe ask
| around, lots of folks have a box of older pis. i'd certainly
| love to get rid of all of the 1s and 2s i've got.
| unnouinceput wrote:
| I run PiHole on a pi zero for like 2 years now. It costed me
| around $20 when I bought it, retail price, delivery included.
| Works like a charm
| mrandish wrote:
| A similar but more powerful and flexible device is the Core2 from
| M5Stack. It's expandable through stackable snap-on blocks, USB,
| multiple I2C and a full set of GPIO and signal pins on a header.
| It has ESP32 CPU, Wifi, Bluetooth, 2" color touchscreen,
| microphone, power indicator, 6-Axis IMU, vibration motor, I2S
| codec, amplifier, speaker, RTC, power button, reset button, 10 x
| RGB LEDs, SD card slot and 3 programmable soft buttons for ~$45.
|
| There are dozens of snap-on expansion modules which can also be
| screwed on for permanent use, including a keyboard module,
| joystick/D-pad, expanded battery, prototyping breadboard
| breakout, ethernet and various wireless modules including
| cellular and LORAWAN. I have several of these along with a bunch
| of the modules and the system is ideal for prototyping up various
| things super quickly. Amazon sells their own Core2 bundle with an
| expanded battery module which is pre-programmed with their IOT
| prototyping platform firmware but you can just overwrite that
| back to stock firmware which supports FreeRTOS, MicroPython,
| UIFlow and Arduino frameworks.
|
| https://shop.m5stack.com/products/m5stack-core2-esp32-iot-de...
|
| https://www.amazon.com/M5Stack-Core2-ESP32-Development-EduKi...
| rsync wrote:
| Here is the QWERTY keyboard for the m5stack:
|
| https://www.robotshop.com/en/m5stack-faces-qwerty-keyboard-p...
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| AIUI this can't connect directly to the m5stack. You also
| need the 'Faces bottom board'.
|
| Here's a kit with everything you need, and more: https://shop
| .m5stack.com/products/face?variant=1729043762389...
| gmiller123456 wrote:
| These used to be a lot cheaper, IIRC I got mine for about $25.
| I would recommend these to anyone wanting to go beyond "just
| looking" for ESP development, especially beginners. Yea, you
| can buy the components you need separately, but having
| everything integrated in one small package makes it easy to try
| things out quickly. No breadboards, jumper wires, etc just to
| have a button to press. And when you're ready to dedicate
| hardware to the project, you can build it with one of the
| cheaper modules. But all of the debugging, etc is a lot easier
| with the big screen, and integrated peripherals. At $45, I'm
| not so sure, might just be recommended for people who'll really
| get into ESP development.
| alexcabrera305 wrote:
| Reminds me of the Pocket Chip
| (https://opensource.com/article/17/2/pocketchip-or-pi) which is a
| pretty fantastic little device that shouldn't exist.
| anthk wrote:
| I still own one, but it needs a better 3d-printed keyboard with
| better keys.
| jamesgeck0 wrote:
| I think it's actually out of production right now. There's
| still stock available here and there, but Next Thing Co. went
| out of business.
| loser777 wrote:
| If you cranked up the maximum swap size, would you theoretically
| be able to build the kernel? (Is it truly a viable Linux machine
| if it can't build its own kernel?)
|
| What would be the expected build time? Days? Months?
| jeremyjh wrote:
| Who builds their own kernel other than enthusiasts? Even
| companies that develop their own kernel branch don't build it
| on every machine that runs it. What practical difficulty is
| imposed if you can't?
| zeusk wrote:
| ARM926EJ is pretty capable, I had one in my Intel XScale based
| PDA.
|
| I'd say a day at max if it had enough memory.
| jethro_tell wrote:
| Needs an escape key on the keeb
| overgard wrote:
| This is a neat idea and clever execution, but I just can't
| imagine ever using this over like a donated out-of-date laptop or
| something. I'd love to see something at like a 50-100 price point
| that could theoretically be more usable (more than 47 keys, more
| screen resolution, built in wifi)
| vinceguidry wrote:
| I've sometimes thought about going to some small village
| somewhere and teaching interested locals how to code and use
| computers. I would need small, cheap devices that I can just
| replace whenever they get lost/stolen. Also standardized enough
| that I don't have to spend a ton of time doing hardware
| support. If someone brought a >$20 fully-contained device to
| market then I could buy 20 of them and plan a 6 month trip
| abroad. Being not super-useful as general purpose machines is a
| bonus.
|
| This idea's been kicking around in my head since the OLPC was
| announced, but nobody's delivered yet. Chromebooks are too
| expensive.
| a9h74j wrote:
| I find out-of-date used Chromebooks are available for $50.
| overgard wrote:
| It would be nice to have. One thought I can't shake is how
| wasteful the world is with perfectly good hardware that's
| "obsolete". For instance, I have an iPhone 5C that I
| practically can't give away which is way more powerful than
| the idea presented here. But because the hardware is
| undocumented and locked down and it's stupid difficult to
| replace the battery, there doesn't seem to be a reasonable
| way to turn it into a cheap computer, even though it really
| _should_ be possible. (To be honest, I 'd probably still use
| it as my phone if it still received security updates and I
| could replace the battery)
| 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
| <!-- DO HN STUFF HERE <script>
| if(document.referrer == "https://news.ycombinator.com/") {
| window.location =
| 'https://bbenchoff.github.io/images/Brogrammers.png' }
| </script> -->
|
| Nice.
|
| As a non-brogrammer, a battery-powered, pocket Linux/BSD computer
| without a "phone" built into it that boots from SD card/USB stick
| is exactly what I am looking for.
|
| No GUI required.
|
| Willing to pay more than $15.
| andi999 wrote:
| The Bom for 1000 pieces is per piece 15$ (and 2.00$ for a 64gbyte
| sdcard looks optimistic, but difficult to tell typing on my
| phone). Placing, soldering and assembly is not factored in,
| wouldnt be surprised if this is another 15$, so production price
| is 30$, sales price then would be more like 60$.
|
| Edit: is the sd card connector missing in the bom?
|
| Cool project though.
| Closi wrote:
| The SD card is on the BOM (it's on the bottom) but agree that
| the price for it looks optimistic.
|
| Looking on AliExpress there are lots of unrealistically priced
| SD cards (1tb for $7!) so I wonder how many of these are just
| scams where they are formatted to appear bigger than they are,
| and also if that's a realistic price that they are using.
| samstave wrote:
| Something that I have always wanted was an SMS ONLY device.
|
| A device, kind of like the SideKick (remember Danger invented
| Android, got bought by Google - then the founder was paid
| ~$90,000,000 severance from Google for coercing a female
| colleague to be his 'sex slave' -- Yeah, that Danger, Andy
| Rubin.)
|
| but I just want a device that only sends and receives SMS and
| thats it.
|
| Can this machine accept a SIM in a future iteration?
|
| (I interviewed with Danger back in the day... but I had the
| freaking flu and felt like death, and I failed the interview as I
| was reeling from the flu. It was super stupid of me to go to the
| interview whilst sick, but I REALLY wanted to work at Danger...)
| kotaKat wrote:
| I'd love a modern RIM 850 that could do all my messaging
| (Discord, Telegram, SMS) and nothing else. Keep the 850
| formfactor, keyboard, that amazing thumbwheel, but give it
| something like e-ink and great connectivity. Hell, throw a WiFi
| hotspot in it if we absolutely must.
| samstave wrote:
| And a scrambling MAC... every N minutes.
| vdqtp3 wrote:
| I've always wanted a receive only messaging device. Iridium
| still supports satellite pagers which would be perfect for
| that, but the hardware isn't manufactured anymore and you can't
| get service without a big plan attached (like DoD)
| bserge wrote:
| jrockway wrote:
| For those interested in getting something going off the shelf:
|
| Keyboard Featherwing: https://www.adafruit.com/product/4818
|
| Linux-capable Feather:
| https://www.crowdsupply.com/groboards/giant-board
|
| Add a lithium polymer battery of your choosing to compute on the
| go. (Also possible to add WiFi or SMS with a Featherwing for
| people that are interested in that.
| https://www.adafruit.com/product/4264 etc.)
|
| OK, it's not really off the shelf. No doubt many hours involving
| pulling out your hair to set up the device tree are involved
| before you can do anything fun.
| NWoodsman wrote:
| Picture this:
|
| - monocoque anodized aluminum housing with coin screw o-ring
| battery port that houses an 18650; -silicon gasketed
| polycarbonate faceplate held with stainless hex button head
| screws, waterproof to 100 meters - tactile clicky button keys
| beneath a silicone membrane for waterproof-ness. - detachable
| rubberized wifi antenna.
|
| A feller can dream...
| NWoodsman wrote:
| oh and Qi charging so you don't have to open the case to
| charge.
| undecisive wrote:
| > I'm changing the title of this page just to screw with mods on
| the orange website
|
| Loving it! What orange website could they be talking about?
|
| I wonder what would be achievable, around the $15 mark WITHOUT
| needing a minimum order of 1000? (Presuming access to a 3d
| printer and a reasonably cheap PCB fab company)
| foxfluff wrote:
| > What orange website could they be talking about?
|
| I wouldn't know, my topcolor is B5DB5D.
| utopcell wrote:
| For q1, nothing: shipping would be more than that.
| sokoloff wrote:
| > I wonder what would be achievable, around the $15 mark
| WITHOUT needing a minimum order of 1000?
|
| A Raspberry Pi Zero?
| dhosek wrote:
| I was thinking about the fact that 40 years ago there was the
| Sinclair ZX80, a $100 computer that you could hook to your TV
| and there's not really a whole lot in that space/price point1
| now other than the hobbyist Raspberry Pi/arduino/other
| hobbyist machines. I'd have to think that it's possible to
| make a consumer-grade PC that you hook up to your own monitor
| for around $100, although I guess the cost of a Windows
| license is an obstacle to that. Surely someone could build a
| windows PC (or I guess Linux) that's inside a keyboard
| enclosure for around $100 that could be commercially
| successful now.
|
| [?]
|
| 1. We can ignore inflation adjustments because computer
| prices have generally stayed flat or gone down (the rule used
| to be that the PC you wanted was around $2000-3000 and
| nowadays if we're talking about a desktop system, assuming
| one even specs such a thing, it's less than that).
| robotresearcher wrote:
| There are functional used PCs in dumpsters and for $cheap
| now. Wasn't the case in the 1980s. You can definitely get
| working for $100.
| shakna wrote:
| > Surely someone could build a windows PC (or I guess
| Linux) that's inside a keyboard enclosure for around $100
| that could be commercially successful now.
|
| Raspberry Pi actually did that. [0] The RPi 400 is right
| around that $100 mark, fully assembled, and is basically a
| keyboard with a bunch of ports for the people who end up
| with it.
|
| [0] https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/
| sleepybrett wrote:
| and a mouse!
| 7thaccount wrote:
| There is a raspberry pi kit to do just that (keyboard +
| screen + computer all in one).
|
| The only other option is a ZXSpectrum Next (Kickstarter
| that is having trouble with supply chain right now for the
| latest batch). It's freaking awesome though. You can
| directly download new spectrum games from the internet or
| just use the SD card. Someone wrote a new assembly language
| book. There is a BBS app...so many cool things going on.
| The commander x-16 will also be cool if it ever comes out.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| I thought you could buy a RPI-in-keyboard...
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSvHJ97d8n8
| sokoloff wrote:
| I bought a Samsung Chromebook 4 for $92 including tax on
| Black Friday. You can buy one today for $120+tax at
| Walmart.
|
| It's plenty capable, especially as compared to other
| sub-$250 options and has power supply, battery, screen,
| keyboard, trackpad, speakers, camera, and microphone
| included.
| toast0 wrote:
| There were those stick pcs for a while. I think those
| started around $100, add a $10 keyboard and a $10 mouse and
| you're not too far from your price point.
| cwt137 wrote:
| Raspberry Pi Foundation does the "minimum order of 1000" and
| passes the savings on to you. Try and buy all the individual
| components of a RPi Zero and see how much it costs. It is way
| more than $15.
|
| P.S. The RPi Zero does not come with a display and keyboard
| like the computer in this article does. So, we are talking
| about two different types of computers.
| nousermane wrote:
| $15 is a pretty good guess for per-unit cost of mass-
| produced RPi0, I reckon.
|
| Look at the price of "WH" version with superficial changes
| that cost pennies to add (wifi chip and 0.1" header), and
| (used to be) easily obtainable with no limit on the order
| size. Or, at least that was the status quo before the the
| great chip shortage of 2021.
| kache_ wrote:
| ah, someone who shares my disdain for "hacker" "news"
| ant6n wrote:
| Yet here you are
| sangnoir wrote:
| There are some real gems & genuine insight to be found. But
| the comments still follow a Pareto distribution and there's
| a lot that is worth disdain[1], IMO.
|
| Besides, I found it's better when I don't take HN too
| seriously; I now often enjoy HN the way I "enjoy" _Curb
| Your Enthusiasm_
|
| 1. Often as a top comment too! A lot of inaccurate,
| stripped-of-nuance or outright ignorant hot takes get voted
| up if they confirm the biases of the majority of HN users.
| vagrantJin wrote:
| Whatever you feelings may be, HN brings a breath of fresh
| air. Compared to other social media, its quite rare for
| commentary to devolve into nonsense.
| throwaway2048 wrote:
| Another possibility, you are bad at detecting nonsense
| vagrantJin wrote:
| Possibly.
|
| Though I generally would not catch nonsense about an
| 40-year old Microprocessor or some newfangled K8s setup.
|
| So perhaps I should phrase the claim differently. The
| "quality" of nonsense on HN is remarkably better than
| other social sites.
| skeptical2 wrote:
| sigmaprimus wrote:
| I don't get it, is this just some sort of experiment for
| messing with forums or is there an actual product here?
|
| I can't even buy a keyboard for $15 anymore since inflation
| took off.
|
| So yeah if in fact this is a real product I'll throw a few
| bucks at it to help make it happen.
| orangepenguin wrote:
| What was the title previously? I'm not sure I understand the
| significance of the current title.
| nerdponx wrote:
| Some people really hate Hacker News for no intelligent
| reasons that I can tell.
| waiseristy wrote:
| They usually hate it because of the people who post here
| donio wrote:
| I wouldn't say that I hate the site but when I am unhappy
| with it it's not because of what gets posted but what
| gets upvoted.
| jacquesm wrote:
| With zero submissions in 12 years I think you have the
| solution right at your fingertips.
| caslon wrote:
| That would only be true if votes were a limited resource.
| There's no real "competition" here. Something good
| getting upvoted doesn't stop absolute trash from getting
| upvoted. donio posting something incredible wouldn't mean
| it would offset something awful; it would just slightly
| change the timeslot of the awful thing.
|
| Articles that go deep into technical subjects generally
| stay on the front page for half of the time of trendy
| lightweight posts.
| nerdponx wrote:
| Trying to mess with the _moderators_ specifically
| suggests some kind of deeper ire.
| reaperducer wrote:
| The new title is "I'm changing the title of this page just to
| screw with mods on the orange website"
| jqpabc123 wrote:
| _... access to a 3d printer_
|
| Printer filament itself costs about $10USD per pound. And then
| there is the inevitable one or two misprints.
|
| Not to mention the time needed to print the item.
|
| If you looking for cheap, low volume 3D printing ain't it.
| kube-system wrote:
| 3d-printing is very expensive in terms of variable costs but
| super cheap in terms of fixed costs. For low volumes, the
| math is usually in favor of 3d printing.
| hungryforcodes wrote:
| http://www.orangepi.org/
|
| ?
|
| Pretty much a possible competitor. I have several OrangePi
| boards...and they run linux and cost me around $15.
| ant6n wrote:
| More powerful, but no keyboard and display.
| hungryforcodes wrote:
| Totally agree. But are they really DELIVERING a final
| product with keyboard, main board and display for $15? THAT
| is the real question.
| billiam wrote:
| Said the guy or gal typing on a keyboard and reading the
| response on a display. Solved problem?
| berkes wrote:
| A strange argument to make. I have a laptop that I got
| for free from my father in law. But that does not mean
| one can 'get a Linux machine for EUR0.00'.
| utopcell wrote:
| The argument is they already have a keyboard and a
| display ? Guess what, they also have a computer.
| jsheard wrote:
| Advanced HN mod troll: write a dozen slightly different titles
| and pick a random one on page load
| tyho wrote:
| Pick one deterministically based on src IP address for extra
| annoyance.
| hyperpallium2 wrote:
| There is another theory which states that this has already
| happened.
| not2b wrote:
| JWZ will replace links from HN to his site, jwz dot org,
| with an NSFW image and an insult. It does this based on
| the Referer: header, so people using Firefox in private
| browsing mode aren't affected.
| perihelions wrote:
| Also people using Firefox' refer[r]er spoofing option* --
| a useful anti-evil tool that helps protect you from
| surveillance adtech.
|
| *'network.http.referer.spoofSource' in about:config : _"
| true = send the target URL as the referrer"_
|
| https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Referrer
| adolph wrote:
| It might kill a cat to find out.
| RobRivera wrote:
| a bridge too far, m8
| addaon wrote:
| Ars Technica basically does this (with two headlines), since
| the Conde Nast acquisition. Drives me nuts, and makes a
| significant portion of the post-article discussion
| incomprehensible.
| whatshisface wrote:
| There's something so hilarious about the idea of an HN
| thread full of people who only read the title, while the
| website is A/B testing ten different titles.
| vidarh wrote:
| I'm looking forward to the GPT3 generated titles using a
| prompt that involves something along the lines of "Given
| this excerpt of the HN discussion: .... This is the most
| amusing title: ..."
| masklinn wrote:
| > Loving it! What orange website could they be talking about?
|
| In case that's a serious question: what website has an orange
| theme, and an aggressively enforced rule against editorialising
| submission titles?
| only4here wrote:
| well yeah, but why would they want to block out the "orange
| website"?
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| I don't think "screw with" means "block" in this case. But
| there is one moderately famous blog that does block HN:
| https://www.jwz.org/
| wanderingjew wrote:
| yeah I asked jwz how to do that, but I can't figure out a
| way to make that work with Github pages.
| Beltalowda wrote:
| if (document.referrer ===
| 'https://news.ycombinator.com/') window.location
| = 'https://cdn.jwz.org/images/2016/hn.png'
|
| Or something along those lines should work.
| shakna wrote:
| HN helpfully uses the referrer, so you can easily do it
| with a tiny bit of JS: <script>
| if(document.referrer == "https://news.ycombinator.com/")
| { // Mess with HN users here... }
| </script>
| vidarh wrote:
| View source on the linked website just now:
| <!-- DO HN STUFF HERE <script>
| if(document.referrer == "https://news.ycombinator.com/")
| { window.location =
| 'https://bbenchoff.github.io/images/Brogrammers.png'
| } </script> -->
| demindiro wrote:
| He checks the Referer header[1]. In Firefox you can
| prevent that header from being sent by setting
| `network.http.sendRefererHeader` to 0 (in about:config).
|
| [1]: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
| US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Re...
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| JWZ appears to use Apache, so he probably does something
| like http://www.htaccess-guide.com/deny-visitors-by-
| referrer/
| numpad0 wrote:
| That is the way it was done back in the day, usually when
| admin wanted guests to not come through Google Search or
| to come through a correct word-of-mouth bouncer page.
| Client side JS implementations allow content to be viewed
| by blocking JS.
| Aissen wrote:
| They're not blocking it out, they are protesting the weird,
| variable, "original title" policy.
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| MikusR wrote:
| I would also want to know. Because news.ycombinator.com is
| quite selective about the enforcement.
| lgeorget wrote:
| Ever since I've found that I can change the color of the top
| bar in my profile, the site has been every color but orange
| to me. :D
| hdjjhhvvhga wrote:
| Yeah I changed it to green but the orange Y in the top
| left-hand corner drives me nuts.
| bambax wrote:
| Incredibly, it's a gif. They could at least change it for
| a png with transparent color...
| CyberRabbi wrote:
| What is the recent trend of website users not using the actual
| names of the websites they use? >the orange
| site >the bird site
|
| Are these pet names? Is this passive aggressive contempt? Or is
| this an inside joke that I don't get?
| Kye wrote:
| Adding dramatic flair is a timeless hobby. Like most things,
| it gets shorter with time.
|
| It's basically:
|
| _That den of capitalist hubris, the Mart of Wally_
|
| For a new era.
| vagrantJin wrote:
| I would skew towards _inside joke pet names_
|
| For a few reasons.
|
| Firstly, sometimes a shot needs to be taken at said websites
| and there are people who work there who will be reading it.
|
| Secondly, because inside jokes are the best jokes.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| It's passive aggressive contempt. They're pretty commonly
| used in leftist online circles to gently insult the original
| sites.
| Inhibit wrote:
| As the practical build here shows you simply need 15$ and one
| capable engineer. To be fair you'll also need something to tool
| a case out of, be it FDM or extractive machining.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Cardboard & glue will do. Otherwise, carve it out of balsa.
| anthk wrote:
| Give me a 80x24 font terminal and framebuffer support for
| SD2/video/images/PDF, and I'm sold.
|
| This has no internet support, but who cares as I can just rsync
| the NNTP dir from/to slrn in my laptop and read good stuff
| offline, and just answer over the laptop, too. Or, well, an
| Atheros dongle would work fine.
|
| For coding, JimTCL with or without SDL2 is fun, and, for gaming,
| text adventures and roguelikes would rock here.
| jandrese wrote:
| The screen is just too low rez for an 80x24 terminal. You would
| need a 3x9 font, which I know from experience are close to
| unreadable. 320x240 displays more often ran at 40x24 which is
| too small for the modern world.
|
| At the end of the article he talked about upgrading to a
| 640x480 display which would make the 80x24 terminal a real
| possibility. The surprisingly expensive 800x480 display would
| be even better, you would have the possibility of running a
| square 9x9 font, or more likely increasing the console
| resolution to 100x24.
| anthk wrote:
| I ran 80x25 fine under the zipit z2 but had to place it near
| your face as if it was a Game Boy.
|
| But the Z2 Nethack build was patched to support a ~64x16 res
| (68x20 I think), so that worked well among some forth
| interpreter and well, gopher clients and IRC.
|
| The custom Slashem I built didn't have that patch, (and the
| patch was doable for sure), but I was lazy and just ran
| setfont.
|
| Z machine games were perfectly playable on 64x16.
| zokier wrote:
| Where do you find F1C100s for $.75 @1ku? How much more would it
| cost to upgrade the SoC to something bit more modern, like
| V3S/R11 (or others from that family)?
|
| https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/03/30/allwinner-s3-camera-...
|
| > I've been told V3, V3S, S3, S3L, R11 are all the same chip, but
| with packaging variations.
| donpdonp wrote:
| For those of you who are intrigued by this cyberdeck, there is an
| active community around such DIY small computing platforms. Check
| out https://cyberdeck.cafe/ and especially their discord server.
| There are tons of amazing projects there.
| CameronBanga wrote:
| I believe per HN rules, the title here should be changed to
| properly reflect the title of the article?
| fsiefken wrote:
| > battery life is long enough
|
| what's 'long enough'? i'd love a on-the-go linux with e-ink and
| very low power chip so i can use it for a week.
| nielsole wrote:
| The NiMH batteries are likely in series. They have a capacity
| of 600mAh. The Lichee Nano that this board is based on has a
| power consumption (with display of 250mA[0]) [0]
| https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Seeed%20Technolo...
| So even if you can't fully discharge the NiMH batteries you
| should comfortably get an hour of battery life out of this
| thing, much more, if you don't use the display.
| zokier wrote:
| > I've already written a driver for a 800x480 display, and it
| could work over SPI. This display is somewhat expensive, with a
| bare panel coming in at $12
|
| Alibaba has some 800x480 displays for as low as $4.5-6.5 (@1ku),
| I wonder if those are just bullshit or is there some catch. They
| don't have SPI interface, so driving them might be bit more
| involved? But the SoC should have the hardware for that, so its
| just a matter of writing drivers?
|
| https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/800x480-resolution-5-...
|
| https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/5-inch-6-O-clock-view...
| hffftz wrote:
| marcodiego wrote:
| Does it need binary blobs? Would be a shame such a device becoma
| frozen in time because one can't update it.
| pronoiac wrote:
| Two things:
|
| I'm not clear on why the first one would cost $10k. The
| enclosure, maybe?
|
| If he were going to sell these, the rule of thumb I heard was to
| charge the cost of parts x 10. (Edit: maybe a factor of 2? I
| forget.)
| tyingq wrote:
| Would be nice if he broke out the $10k. My guess is mostly the
| cost of an injection mold for the enclosure.
| wanderingjew wrote:
| Mold for the silicon keyboard - the first five keyboards is
| going to be about $6k. After that, each keyboard is about a
| dollar a piece.
|
| Same with the plastic enclosure.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Enclosure at small scale can be 3D printed. Use FDM for
| mechanical fitment checks, then make in SLA resin printers
| for first couple clear case prototypes. I wish I could do
| keyboard as easy...
| ghostly_s wrote:
| Sure, if you want an enclosure that looks and feels like
| shit.
| pronoiac wrote:
| Going by their comment history, I think this is the
| article's author.
|
| You might want to make a top-level comment, like "This is
| the author, ask me anything".
| ghostly_s wrote:
| Maybe they don't want people to ask them anything.
| wanderingjew wrote:
| well, not _here_...
| geoah wrote:
| I was wondering the same thing.
|
| PCBs are pretty cheap at this size, and the components wouldn't
| be THAT much more expensive to grab in smaller quantities.
|
| If someone would get a group buy started just for the
| components and 3d case files I'd hapilly sign up and 3d print
| the thing.
| ghostly_s wrote:
| I assume it's tooling costs for the custom enclosure + rubber
| membrane but I too was confused why that was never clarified.
| bluesquared wrote:
| It's going to be tooling for the enclosure, and if there is
| other NRE to be considered for PCB testing (ICT, solder
| stencil, etc).
|
| With a $15 BoM cost, using a domestic contract manufacturer,
| this would probably come out to be no cheaper than $30/unit
| with very decent volumes, and that doesn't factor in your
| profit. Need to remember to pay someone to assemble it and test
| it.
| renonce wrote:
| In China we buy second-hand Redmi 2 for 60RMB each (roughly
| $9.5). Can be bought in quantities. Fully functional with 2GB
| RAM+16GB eMMC, and battery, touchscreen, WiFi, Bluetooth, camera,
| and even 4G support. It's not built from scratch like this one,
| but if you are just looking for something cheap, then this price
| is insane.
| AlexAndScripts wrote:
| What do you typically use it for?
| wolpoli wrote:
| Something like this would be awesome when paired with a
| physical keyboard.
| throw10920 wrote:
| Amazing that we went from this potato[1] for $12 in 2013 to
| that Redmi 2 in 9 years. Now, you said that you buy the Redmi
| second-hand, but still - the leap is amazing.
|
| [1] https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=3107
| tombert wrote:
| This reminds me (in a good way) of the GPD Win computers.
|
| Obviously smartphones are cool, I have one, I like it, but it
| annoys me that in some senses they're still not as good as a
| Windows 98 laptop from 24 years ago. Their version of MS Office
| isn't as intuitive, there's not the same level of programming
| language/compiler support, on iOS you're restricted to the App
| Store, etc.
|
| The GPD Win was the first time I saw a good attempt at a "real"
| computer that fits in your pocket, and I have one and love it
| dearly for on-the-train coding, but sadly the pricepoint is a bit
| high for most people. If I can get something that feels like a
| real computer for less than $50, I'll be the first in line to buy
| it.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| I wish netbooks were still around with modern hardware. In
| college, I replaced a powerful laptop with a desktop in my
| dorm+netbook, and just did remote desktop on the on-campus
| internet (luckily all the classrooms were still wired for
| ethernet).
| nfriedly wrote:
| There are options out there. GPD is still making new devices
| - you can get something from them with an i7 and 16GB of RAM
| that will fit into a large pocket.
| kaetemi wrote:
| Similar setup, but with one of those harder-to-find Vaio
| netbooks with an AMD APU. No need for remote desktop.
| Flawless performance in 3D and CAD software on the netbook
| directly.
| emteycz wrote:
| A rooted Android smartphone with Nix is a full Linux computer.
| I have Node.js, VSCode, C/C++, etc - all while keeping access
| to all phone capabilities. I haven't tried yet but there
| shouldn't be any problem with running X server and a full DE (I
| access the VSCode through Android browser now).
| tombert wrote:
| Interesting. I don't use Android anymore but I have like four
| old phones lying around that I could easily use to play with.
| I wonder if this has better battery life than the GPD Win,
| and it would be a free experiment for me.
| emteycz wrote:
| Well my phone (Samsung S9+) can do like 12 hours of
| Node.js+VSCode coding while using BT keyboard and mouse.
| Not bad IMHO.
|
| And the USB-C port of this phone can be used with a usual
| dock to connect it to a screen and wired peripherals.
| tombert wrote:
| Do you have a keyboard case that lets you just type with
| your thumbs?
| ansible wrote:
| I've tried to do work on various pocket-sized computers over
| the years (HP LX100 palmtop, Motorola Q, HTC G1, Samsung
| Sidekick 4G) and various netbooks and such.
|
| The most productive device I've had is an Acer Chromebook. For
| me it is the typing speed, and having a nearly full-sized
| keyboard makes a huge difference. Adding an SSH client (though
| you can instead install the Linux subsystem) allows me to
| access my remote servers where I do development.
|
| While thin and light, the Chromebook doesn't fit in a pocket.
| But it is not as if I'm randomly hanging out in coffee shops
| these days trying to do work.
| tombert wrote:
| I am on the train a lot (probably too often considering
| COVID), and often am forced to stand up, basically
| eliminating any laptop that requires a lap.
|
| The GPD Win has been great because I can hold it and type
| with it with my thumbs, not wholly dissimilar to a
| smartphone, but I have full Windows 10 running on there. It's
| definitely not for everyone, but for me it's been a lot of
| fun to hack on Pico-8 during a two hour train delay two years
| ago.
| ansible wrote:
| Ah, yes. If you're standing, then something much more
| compact makes a lot of sense.
|
| I wouldn't mind seeing something with the same form factor
| as the GPD Win3, but using a relatively low-power processor
| for better battery life. I suppose that wouldn't drop down
| the price enough to make it desirable to most of the target
| market though.
| oroup wrote:
| A display mounted on a flat surface between your hands seems like
| a ready path to neck trauma.
| pjerem wrote:
| You mean, like a smartphone or a portable console ?
| goodpoint wrote:
| No, much worse, because you are not able to lift it up in
| front of your eyes while typing.
| hypertele-Xii wrote:
| Why not?
| gmiller123456 wrote:
| You can't hold it and type at the same time, this device
| has to be sitting on a surface to type.
| [deleted]
| wanderer_ wrote:
| mmmmm.... me want! I'll buy it if he puts it out there.
|
| "the mechanical keyboard mafia" is the most startlingly accurate
| phrase I have read today.
| ajb wrote:
| This is $15 BoM cost (ie, parts), not including assembly,
| packaging, shipping, etc etc. So not what most people think when
| they see the headline. Still, it is a nice design
| Taniwha wrote:
| nor profit - traditionally as a rule of thumb one doubles the
| price to cover that, and then again to cover retail markup
| picture wrote:
| And this is the BOM cost at qty 10,000.
| foobarbecue wrote:
| Love it. Text says price is for 10000 units, BOM price column
| header says 1000 units. Which is it?
| xuhu wrote:
| Haven't I seen this before ?
| http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/images/e70open.jpg
| 300bps wrote:
| Important to note that the quoted $15 doesn't include shipping,
| assembly, tax or any other costs.
|
| For the same actual cost I'd go on EBay/Craigslist/FB Marketplace
| and buy an unlimited number of old computers with 1000x the specs
| of this one that are going to be otherwise placed into a
| landfill.
| guntars wrote:
| And then carry those old computers around in your pocket?
| 300bps wrote:
| Sure. Buy a bunch of old Android phones for even less and
| root them.
| earksiinni wrote:
| "Holy f*ck don't use lithium"
|
| Safety first. Ha!
| miav wrote:
| > It costs $10,000 USD to build one of these
|
| > The ten thousandth one costs $15
|
| As a software engineer, I'm used to being able to build
| essentially whatever I want, with the only cost being my time.
| I'm often unpleasantly reminded that software is an outlier in
| that regard and as soon as physical items are concerned,
| especially hardware, it turns out that manufacturing even a
| simple thing is prohibitively expensive if it's done at a small
| scale.
| mastazi wrote:
| In the software world something that works roughly similarly
| (i.e. where a prototype is differentiated from production) is
| devops. If you are deploying a toy-project once, maybe you are
| not setting up a CI/CD pipeline, Terraform templates, Github
| team permissions, Github/Jira integration, etc etc. - you do
| all of these things only for "real" products.
|
| But yeah, going from prototype to production with hardware is
| much, much harder, I agree with you.
| eyegor wrote:
| It's actually not too bad to order custom pcbs now ($10 or
| less), but you do get raked over the coals if you need quality
| components in small quantities. Individual bulk caps can be
| several dollars.
| eternityforest wrote:
| You could probably build one at home for a few hundred if you
| really wanted and did not care at all about time.
|
| You would just need to 3D print a case and somehow cast your
| own silicone keypad. DIY electronics is actually not too bad
| cost wise.
| tdeck wrote:
| You could probably design a very similar one of tbese wirh a
| standard enclosure ($5) tactile switches, and a custom PCB
| for the top. Custom PCBs are ridiculously cheap now and even
| pick and place has gotten affordable for small runs.
| outworlder wrote:
| Keypad could probably be done with a flexible filament too.
| adamddev1 wrote:
| So true. I recently helped a friend build a little bit of a
| backyard carpentry project and I was struck by the fact that I
| got the same creative satisfaction from building little pieces
| of software. With one big difference: that 2-day carpentry
| project cost around $1000 in materials. People wanting to
| create these kinds of things have to pay a big price. Whereas
| with code (and lots of free-tier cloud services etc) I can bang
| out endless ideas and useful projects for free.
| moistly wrote:
| The other big difference is that you generally can't make
| mistakes in woodworking. Made a mistake in your code? No
| problem, you fix the bug. But not in woodworking. Cut a piece
| too short? You're hooped. Drilled a hole in the wrong place?
| You're hooped. Misalignment during glue-up? Hooped.
|
| Woodworking scratches many of the same itches as programming
| for me, with one key difference: it's unforgiving of
| mistakes, so requires a lot more care.
| krm01 wrote:
| Really depends. I started a small (consumer electronics)
| hardware startup. Bootstrapped and producing small quantities.
| There are ways to make it work.
| umvi wrote:
| > it turns out that manufacturing even a simple thing is
| prohibitively expensive if it's done at a small scale
|
| You can overcome some of the scaling costs with 3D printers.
| It's pretty cheap to make fairly robust plastic parts with a 3D
| printer if you can do basic CAD.
| joemi wrote:
| Most of that "$10,000" is because of paying someone else for
| custom parts. If you use existing parts or make the custom
| parts yourself (if you have the ability/tools), it's less than
| $100.
|
| So the software equivalent would be if you oursourced a large
| chunk of your project to someone else, and in that case, I
| think $10,000 might not be too far off.
| 6510 wrote:
| Interesting take, I guess trees can be pretty cheap if you
| grow them yourself.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| I'm in love this device and would pay 10x the cost to have one if
| it included Wifi and QMK firmware for the keyboard. Bluetooth and
| NFC would be great too, but not critical. The keyboard reminds me
| a lot of the Atreus42, which is ideal for me. Too many of these
| small devices follow a conventional keyboard layout (looking at
| you, ClockworkPi DevTerm and Popcorn Pocket Computer).
| mypalmike wrote:
| The enclosure pricing seems optimistic. Or is it possible to get
| a mold designed, cast, and parts manufactured at ~ $1000 for 1000
| pieces?
| veltas wrote:
| This would be much more minimum and much more viable if you just
| assume the user can acquire "a USB keyboard" for little or
| nothing.
| joeda_ wrote:
| but what would you do with it?
| jaywalk wrote:
| Post it on HN, of course.
| einpoklum wrote:
| The idea is great, but the layout of the keyboard is such that,
| well, I wouldn't use this keyboard. It's extremely inconvenient
| IMHO to split it in the middle. You will have to either retrain
| your hands, or keep looking right and left.
|
| I realize this might be due to some combination of constraints,
| but $15 or $1500 - the form factor matters.
| gorgoiler wrote:
| 1/ This is cool. I love it.
|
| 2/ As per the very start of the article -- and this is off topic
| I'm afraid but... -- let's say I _did_ want to root a prepaid
| Android phone. What is the best phone I should go for?
| nullsmack wrote:
| The best part about this is that it appears to take AAA
| batteries.
| ruffrey wrote:
| WiFi?
| [deleted]
| eternityforest wrote:
| I think this could even be almost with a few small changes. I
| think there is room for a new class of device in between
| smartphones and fixed function machines like TV remotes.
|
| If I bought an OSHW product and it shipped with this as the
| controller, or I saw one of these just hanging out running an
| irrigation system, I'd say "Yep, they sure did an awesome design
| there _.
|
| I would ditch the SD card as part of the BOM. I don't trust that
| $2 SD card for anything but read only root operation. Lots of
| people would rather use a SanDisk they already have, so I'd say
| the cheap card should be an optional addon.
|
| With the money saved from that, and maybe by just bumping up the
| price a tiny bit, could you tack WiFi/BT?
|
| This sounds slightly insane, but what if you slapped an ESP32
| module on there?
|
| Not only could it serve as a WiFi and Bluetooth interface, but
| the power draw can be microscopic.
|
| You could have the option to have it always running. That means
| it could be the real time clock.
|
| RTCs are needed more and more for various security related
| things, and are very important for data logging.
|
| Instead of breaking out GPIO for the "shitty ad-on" connector,
| break out ESP32 GPIO.
|
| Now that add-on can run IN LOW POWER MODE!!! You could make an
| incredibly low power thing that logs to RAM, and wakes up once a
| day to 4G upload it!
|
| It could also serve as the battery level ADC monitor if you don't
| already have one.
|
| It could serve as the USB device for the C port, so you could
| plug it in to a a host machine AND have the spare USB-A port.
|
| It would also let you really deeply control and test network
| access. Since you can write your own ESP firmware, and it has
| GPIO, potentially you can implement your own IP-over-LoRa hackery
| with addon modules or something, that works transparently.
|
| It's large RAM could also be exposed as a filesystem for tiny
| frequently updated things, that only need to be semi-persistent.
|
| Plus, you could give it a debugging firmware and use it as a USB
| to serial interface for debugging. The whole platform kind of
| becomes software defined!!
|
| You might need some kind of recovery jumper in case bad ESP
| firmware told the main processor to shut off, preventing you from
| fixing it. But that could just be a DIP switch to disable the
| ESP, which would also act as an RF kill.
|
| Going _eeeevvven fuurrrtherrr*, that NiMH is probably the second
| biggest weakness here.
|
| I think there would be more demand if you swap it for an 18650 or
| lithium AA, even if it cost more.
|
| If you look around, a lot of people really love that form factor.
| You could save a bit of money by just letting people use their
| own 18650.
|
| Or, even better, you could use a 2.4V LTO battery. These are
| $3.30 in QTY10 on AliExpress. They can be float charged. They
| have a linear voltage curve. Incredibly safe, and they can last
| 7000 to 20k cycles.
|
| Set your step down regulator for the float voltage and you are
| good to go if it's accurate enough. Use an IO pin that can turn
| it off and you can terminate for extra life.
|
| With a simple dumb charging regime, you will have no oddities
| when running right off a solar panel through a 12v to USB
| converter.
|
| Now you have the perfect offgrid tech tool!
|
| If the extension interface has a good mechanical connection(Like
| a screw) and 3D-printable addon modules, a lot of standalone
| devices could go away.
|
| OBD scan tool? Multimeter? Geiger counter? Nope, just sell these
| in a kit with a preattached module.
|
| For niche hardware it might actually be cheaper to rebrand these
| than to do your own interface, and these are way more flexible.
|
| Lastly, the ESP32 can handle audio, and audible alerts are
| important.
|
| But beyond that, walkie talkies EPICALLY SUCK. It would add cost,
| but the thing could almost totally replace FRS radios, and have
| 10x the battery life and as much range as you want with Wi-Fi
| mesh, with just a tiny speaker and mic, or even without one, just
| using bluetooth.
|
| Plus, sound is pretty essential for use in a game console.
|
| Currently, there are basically no devices in this class since
| things like the Zipit Z2 went away. So I am super excited to see
| how this goes!!
|
| I already have some ideas for a menu system that could make this
| usable for non-hackers, without going to a full GUI.
| dekhn wrote:
| I see the creator understands economics: "Low Price! It costs
| $10,000 USD to build one of these. The ten thousandth one costs
| $15"
| abetusk wrote:
| The first one costs $10k? It seems a bit disingenuous. All the
| electronics and PCB manufacture is more expensive in single
| quantities, but I would be shocked if it wasn't still within
| 2x-3x of $15 (namely $30-$45).
|
| The big initial expense, as far as I can tell, is the custom
| enclosure and keyboard. Maybe there's an interim design that
| doesn't require injection molded parts?
| varispeed wrote:
| This looks great, but I am not sure how would I use a computer
| without cursors and pgup / pgdown / home / end keys at very
| least? Am I missing something?
| afandian wrote:
| I'm holding out for an MNT Pocket Reform. Though it won't be $15.
|
| https://pocket-reform.ghost.io/
|
| weirdly the most info is in LinkedIn
|
| https://www.linkedin.com/company/pocket-reform
| jl6 wrote:
| Would be nice to see an equivalent "minimum viable trustable
| computer" that used only parts from "trusted" supply chains (pick
| your own definition of "trusted", but it might for example
| exclude generic parts marketplaces).
| alexisread wrote:
| Pinedio stack is probably the best cheap option, as it has been
| fully reverse engineered, including the radios- no firmware
| blobs. Similar to m5 stack but riscV core.
|
| For an OS you have nuttx, but for the memory size, Oberon ports
| (A2) might be feasible.
| ajb wrote:
| https://betrusted.io/ is pretty much that. Initial HW platform
| is there, not sure how much of the SW is ready
| jl6 wrote:
| Yes, that sort of thing! Its claim to trustworthiness seems
| to be based on the idea that its CPU runs on an FPGA so you
| can audit the source code for that and compile it yourself.
| But the underlying FPGA looks like a proprietary Xilinx
| device. Who's auditing that?
| jdlyga wrote:
| I like the cold war tech aesthetic of this. I can imagine 1
| million soviet troops being outfitted with a handheld MVP
| computer each as part of their kits.
| chrisbrandow wrote:
| very cool. My only quibble would be the keyboard layout. split is
| completely fine, but the actual placement of keys does not seem
| ideal. Assuming that the origin of the thumbs would be bottom
| left and right, I'd rotate the layout of the keys a few degrees
| to match that reach. Hard to know without actually holding it and
| trying.
| jokoon wrote:
| I'm guessing there are GUI things that would fit in that thing?
| nfriedly wrote:
| Gmenu2X / GmenuNX is a simple launcher program designed for
| small displays that runs well on that CPU.
|
| This is the fork that I've worked with:
| https://github.com/MiyooCFW/gmenunx
|
| Edit: here is the original: http://mtorromeo.github.io/gmenu2x/
| nine_k wrote:
| This is nice. This is a simple, straightforward design, and a
| reasonably convenient form factor.
|
| Two biggest limitations are RAM and wireless interfaces, or
| rather lack thereof. This thing has less RAM than my router
| (admittedly a $70 box), and has neither WiFi nor BT. It does not
| seem to have many GPIO pins, too.
|
| With the amount of RAM installed, it's mostly a handheld
| terminal, and maybe a handheld console with emulators for old
| games.
|
| While this is admirable as a proof of concept, I suspect that
| moving the price point up to, say, $30 could give a much more
| useful and hacker-friendly device.
|
| I greatly appreciate the split keyboard and the replaceable NiMH
| batteries, though.
| hristov wrote:
| I don't need wireless on something like this. Sure it will help
| in some cases, but if you need wifi connectivity, then you can
| usually use a full laptop while lounging on a couch. And you do
| not really need this. I am sure most people even considering
| something like this have a wifi enabled laptop already.
|
| This would be great for plugging in in random places and making
| sure things work and initializing/configuring/troubleshooting
| various devices that for some reason cannot be reached over the
| wifi.
|
| As far as complaints, I would go the other way -- why does it
| not have an Ethernet port. Yes you can use an Ethernet to usb
| adapter, but it would be so much more convenient if it had a
| port.
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| Surely an ESP32 should be able to run Linux. Then you would get
| Bluetooth and Wi-Fi.
|
| After all Linux used to run on 486, BSD ran on 386.
| squarefoot wrote:
| What about this one?
|
| https://www.96boards.org/product/orangepi-i96/
|
| Price isn't much higher than most ESP32 modules, and it can
| run plain Linux.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| ESP32 is a microcontroller with tiny amounts of RAM and flash
| storage (smaller than any 386 machine). It's not going to run
| anything close to a "real" OS. You'd want to do the opposite:
| use a machine like OP's for near bare-metal programming,
| where the only things it's running are a minimal kernel and a
| custom init binary with your actual, single-purpose app. That
| way you make the best use of a limited amount of RAM.
| vidarh wrote:
| You can get similar type of modular RISC-V + Linux systems
| on AliExpress if you want to do something closer to what OP
| is doing. Lichee is one of them who seem to have a crazy
| number of modules (I've _not_ tested any of them - they
| could well be total junk), including also ARM boards and
| FPGA boards.
| shakna wrote:
| > Surely an ESP32 should be able to run Linux. Then you would
| get Bluetooth and Wi-Fi.
|
| Yes, but it wasn't easy, and only recently achieved.
| [0][1][2][3] Unfortunately, for both those examples, the WiFi
| module itself had to be disabled so that Linux had enough
| memory to function.
|
| Though, of course, they should be able to do something like
| my favourite tiny Linux board, which wired in extra RAM. The
| 8bit Atmega [4], that only takes 4 hours to boot Ubuntu.
|
| [0] https://twitter.com/xiaohui10556190/status/14163071689916
| 047...
|
| [1] https://whycan.com/p_66202.html
|
| [2] https://www.cnx-
| software.com/2021/07/18/linux-5-0-esp32-proc...
|
| [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/esp32/comments/dtlj7n/booting_li
| nux...
|
| [4]
| https://linux.slashdot.org/story/12/04/02/191203/gnulinux-
| ru...
| dekhn wrote:
| Interesting, so linux was ported to RISC-V architecture,
| and there's a RISC-V emulator that runs on ESP32. I guess
| this means all the virtual memory is emulated. I think the
| more interesting step is if the successors to ESP32 have
| virtual memory. In the meantime, I found playing with
| freertos on esp32 lots of fun.
| Taniwha wrote:
| There are also ESP32 variants that are native RISC-V (but
| not with MMUs)
| mmanulis wrote:
| Kind of: https://hackaday.com/2021/07/21/its-linux-but-on-an-
| esp32/
|
| Main issue with Linux on an MC is lack of MMU, though YMMV
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| I don't know about Linux, but how about a (really early) BSD?
| https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/01/27/mini-replica-of-
| dec-...
|
| Granted, that's going through SimH; it would be interesting
| to see if retrobsd or litebsd could be ported to run on ESP32
| natively.
| londons_explore wrote:
| ESP32 is a custom CPU architecture... But they recently
| released an ESP32 varient with a RISC-V core. Still don't
| think it has an MMU though, which linux requires.
| anthk wrote:
| Enough for Tmux, busybox, SSH/Mosh, Lynx, Gopher, NNTP, IRC
| over bitlbee, music and video playing over Bluetooth speakers,
| PDF readers (fbipdf, fbpdf2), epub readers (unzip+lynx script),
| on the go coding...
| snek_case wrote:
| Would you really want to code on this tiny screen though? I
| guess some people would, but you'd probably be a lot more
| comfortable even on a 12" or 10" laptop/netbook.
| Anunayj wrote:
| Oh ofc this is not "practical", but projects like these are
| always fun to see, how much something can be scaled down,
| that it can be in some cases be viable (think washing
| machines) to be a full linux-powered computer.
| anthk wrote:
| A forth env fits in 64x16. Nethack has a patch somewhere
| for low resolutions, from the zipit z2, based on the 3.4.3
| release. If it works on Nethack, Slashem should be easily
| patchable, too.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Well said. It's a great project and impressive execution at
| $15!
|
| > While this is admirable as a proof of concept, I suspect that
| moving the price point up to, say, $30 could give a much more
| useful and hacker-friendly device.
|
| I agree. I think this project proves that ultra low cost is
| viable. Now relaxing the constraints a bit to add RAM and WiFi
| could iterate it right into an optimal spot.
|
| I wouldn't want to go much farther than RAM and WiFi, though.
| It's too easy to let these projects turn into a slippery slope.
| Anunayj wrote:
| I think we've already got a pretty powerful computer at
| around the 40$ price point (the raspberrypi), and I feel like
| it'd be impossible to beat it given the scale raspberry pi is
| at.
| [deleted]
| eternityforest wrote:
| RasPi isn't a handheld though. And AFAIK there's no off the
| shelf case designs as nice as this.
| wanderer_ wrote:
| I fully agree with everything that has been said in this
| reply chain. It is easy to get caught up in the "well,
| for just a few dollars more..." loop, and forget all of
| the accouterments that this includes, which are cheap but
| add so much to convenience.
| whoomp12342 wrote:
| I would imagine at $30 it would have to compete with other
| devices already built
| nine_k wrote:
| Which devices?
|
| Unlike an RPi, this thing has a screen, a keyboard, a sleek
| case, a battery compartment. What are other devices that have
| these all, and cost, say, under $40?
| hamilyon2 wrote:
| Something like this one https://m.aliexpress.ru/item/100500
| 3667540327.html?spm=a2g2w... I guess.
| nine_k wrote:
| Looks terrific for the price. Lacks an integrated
| keyboard though!
| acomjean wrote:
| These little game things are $40. I have one. They use an
| old style removable cell phone battery and have a screen
| that isn't great (320x240 though similar to the one
| described in the article). It runs linux but Lamentably I
| don't think its easy to install your own version.
|
| https://powkiddy.com/products/powkiddy-v90-3-inch-ips-
| screen...
| dingdingdang wrote:
| Have one too, got it at PS27 with delivery, very nice
| hardware (especially with the custom miyoocfw firmware
| installed). If a device like this, with perhaps slightly
| larger screen & wifi, was integrated with keyboard (like
| the rpi 400) one would have killer device for nerd-
| working/gaming on the go.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| $15 is BOM cost, so ~$30 after assembly and ~$60 including
| margin for manufacturers and resellers. I don't know of
| anything that has both screen and keyboard at that price,
| but the $45 M5Stack has a screen and the $70 Raspberry Pi
| 400 has a keyboard.
| only4here wrote:
| > neither WiFi nor BT I understand having WiFi, it'd be great
| for a small device like this. But why would we need Bluetooth?
| It only has 32MB of RAM so I doubt you could get any music
| running on it.
| nine_k wrote:
| Bluetooth:
|
| - Direct file transfer between devices, with simplicity not
| comparable to wifi.
|
| - Easy connection to the internet using a mobile phone
| (likely even the cheapest feature phone).
|
| - Connecting a mouse (and maybe an external keyboard).
|
| - Connecting a 2FA security token (may be important in the
| SSH terminal capacity).
| numpad0 wrote:
| iPod had 32MB RAM and mostly for cache...
| jandrese wrote:
| I played MP3 files in realtime on my old Pentium 75 with 16MB
| of RAM with plenty of CPU and memory to spare. This thing is
| way more powerful than you need for simple music playback.
| Getting audio out however may be a challenge, maybe USB
| speakers?
| dtech wrote:
| MP3 already made such a PC sweat though. I doubt it could
| play 256 kbit AAC, and forget about HE-AAC or FLAC.
| drdebug wrote:
| I'm old so I'll just say that my Amiga 500 had 512KB of RAM,
| and it played really cool music!
| outworlder wrote:
| You had 512KB? I had 64KB. If the machine booted to BASIC,
| it had exactly 28815 bytes free.
|
| I could play music. Not waveforms, but MIDI-level.
| outworlder wrote:
| > It only has 32MB of RAM so I doubt you could get any music
| running on it.
|
| Get off my lawn. With 8MB of RAM you could run Win95 AND a
| MP3 player.
| anthk wrote:
| What? I played music perfecly on 16MB and an ARMv5 musl build
| of Linux+Busybox and mocp.
|
| ZRAM did magic expanding the RAM to 24MB.
|
| And under text mode you can do lots of things. With a
| framebuffer, say hello to 420p videos, PDF's and some web
| pages with images thanks to links -g.
|
| You must use tmux+ash as your "interface", but it works.
| PeterisP wrote:
| IIRC many of the cheap mass-produced WiFi chips tend to just
| do BT as well in the same chip.
| jethro_tell wrote:
| A standard mp3 runs about 1MB per minute. You should really
| only have to buffer a couple seconds if you're streaming. If
| you try to keep a 4 second buffer your going to be somewhere
| between 40 and 70kb (this thing also has an SD card so you
| could keep a much shorter buffer if it was local.)
|
| It really doesn't take much else, you'd need a tcp stack
| where most of the memory usage is buffers. Maybe 15-30 kb,
| and you'd need to load some player into mem as well.
|
| There are tiny embedded devices all over that have music
| running on them. I've seen lightbulbs and light switches that
| can stream music.
|
| Idk why everyone thinks it takes 500mb to play an MP3. Maybe
| because the vast majority of compute power these days seems
| to go to all the shit the app puls in to sell ads and native
| programs are all just electron apps but it really doesn't
| have to be like that for most functions of a computer.
| smallerfish wrote:
| As long as wifi over USB is supported, why overcomplicate the
| core hardware? Sell a dongle as an add on option and make a
| little profit from it.
| jethro_tell wrote:
| Because the point of something like this would be to be
| completely self contained. A shell in your pocket.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| But but... you have a phone in there too... Which even on
| iOS has decent ssh clients.
| jethro_tell wrote:
| That's not the same thing. A shell box on a phone works
| for some things but it's not the same as an actual
| client. This has a keyboard as well.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| How so? (I also have to carry devices occasionally for
| work with stuff like nethunter (pentester)) and I can't
| imagine replacing the flashed pixels/galaxies I use for
| that with even some 40 euro.... Thing...
| fouc wrote:
| A minimum viable computer w/ integrated keyboard & linux
| etc.. + use phone as the display.
|
| That seems like a winning combination!
| deeviant wrote:
| It only has one usb port. If you want to use the port for
| something other than wifi, then you would have to add a usb
| hub that would cost more and be dangling off.
|
| I have the intuition that integral wifi is table stakes for a
| general computing device.
| numpad0 wrote:
| idk but relying on USB in something with only 32MB RAM sounds
| potentially cumbersome. Besides a device like this is the
| intended use case for original ESP8266 so that's probably the
| way to go.
| samstave wrote:
| Completely an aside:
|
| USB dongles piss me off; specifically the Logitech Mouse USB
| dongles:
|
| Why the heck hasnt a single manufacturer included the USB
| Dongle radio IN the mobo?
|
| So with slim laptops you have few USB ports.
|
| I currently am typing this on an HP Omen flagship gaming
| laptop... It has ONE USB-C port, which is under-powered (I
| have a USB-C Hub, that requires an external USB-C Power
| source... so I have to plug the uSB-C Hub into my machine's C
| port, then plug the power USB-C <--> USB-B port consuming TWO
| of my USB ports on my machine...
|
| I plug in multiple USB-based monitors as well - and I can
| carry it all in my backpack...
|
| But we need MORE USB ports than fewer... and Mice should not
| consume a port.
|
| BT mice have never been subjectively responsive enough for
| me. For example, I can test-map-out my BT environment in my
| home by connecting to the BT speaker and moving around and it
| skips....
|
| /rant
| zozbot234 wrote:
| > Why the heck hasnt a single manufacturer included the USB
| Dongle radio IN the mobo?
|
| USB radio dongles are not standardized, that's what
| Bluetooth is for. (There used to be a Wireless USB standard
| but it was never widely adopted, and it has fallen out of
| use altogether.)
|
| There are USB-C power bricks that also work as hubs, so
| you're not wasting your only USB-C port.
| toast0 wrote:
| > BT mice have never been subjectively responsive enough
| for me.
|
| I wanted to like Bluetooth mice, but they just didn't work
| out for me. Some of the wireless mice these days are dual
| mode though; can run with proprietary wireless or switch to
| BT to avoid the proprietary dongle (some of the proprierary
| dongles also can act as a standard BT dongle, if your
| computer doesn't already have one). I know there was a line
| of mice that did wifi instead of BT too, because that makes
| sense.
| shadowoflight wrote:
| > BT mice have never been subjectively responsive enough
| for me.
|
| Anecdotally, I've experienced very few issues with the
| Logitech MX Master (both the original and v3) on my Mac via
| BT - every once in awhile (often enough to be aware of it,
| but infrequently enough that it's not something I'd
| consider a problem) the original would cut out for a few
| seconds, but other than that it tracked perfectly, and I
| haven't even had the periodic cutting-out issue with the
| Master 3 (yet; I've only had it for a little over a month
| now).
|
| Of course, this is dependent on the BT implementation of
| both the mouse and PC being used, which is something to
| take into consideration (I've had way fewer BT connection
| issues in general with MacBooks than with any Windows
| laptops).
| codazoda wrote:
| My Logitech BT mouse works pretty well. I only notice one
| thing that's "special" about it and that is that it takes
| about 2 seconds to connect. As a result, when I first
| unlock my machine I'm spinning the mouse in a few circles
| until the cursor comes alive. Once it's alive, all is good.
| It's weird all these little things we learn to live with.
| samstave wrote:
| Bluetooth should be treated as a threat at this point.
|
| Its used in so many tracking methodologies for BT Unique IDs
| tied to real humans...
| nfriedly wrote:
| The RAM is embedded in the CPU - the slightly-more-expensive
| F1C200s doubles it to 64MB, but going beyond that would require
| a fairly significant redesign.
|
| I don't disagree with you on the wireless, it would be nice to
| have built-in. But, all the same, there is a USB port, so it's
| at least possible.
| __float wrote:
| It seems the author is now redirecting the blog post to a static
| image, presumably to screw with HN even more:
| https://github.com/bbenchoff/bbenchoff.github.io/commit/9e77...
| wanderingjew wrote:
| no, I'm just testing something out. I changed it back. Yes I
| test in prod.
| codazoda wrote:
| I used to love my Alphasmart for writing. I don't know if this
| keyboard would work very well for a touch typist, but maybe. The
| AA batteries are a real bonus for me. Plus, with Linux in it, it
| could do a lot more. I do agree with others that wifi would be a
| killer feature to add to this thing.
| crims0n wrote:
| Reminds me of Pocket C.H.I.P, which apparently still has new
| stock for sale. I never used mine as much as wanted to though...
| largely I think due to the keyboard.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| MartijnBraam wrote:
| Quite sad that this is the Allwinner SoC without a FPU in it,
| making distro options more limited. Something like the v3s has
| similar specs but has a new enough ARM core to have an FPU making
| it possible to run armhf/armv7 distros instead of armel (debian
| naming)
| yayr wrote:
| As an alternative, for iOS folks this might be an interesting
| pocket solution as well:
|
| https://getutm.app
| lstodd wrote:
| This is cool, but Flipper Zero is in my opinion, cooler.
|
| https://flipperzero.one/
| anfractuosity wrote:
| The Flipper Zero does look fun, but $160 is pretty expensive
| alas, but I understand injection moulding doesn't come cheap.
|
| I really like their blog on how the moulds etc. were made too.
|
| Also iirc the firmware is now open.
| lstodd wrote:
| Molds aren't cheap, but as someone who've been around while
| F0 was created it's not that imo. It's setting up the
| pipeline, shitty PCBs in batches of hundreds, fuckups with
| parts, etc.
|
| If you do a couple of prototypes it's fine. If you want to
| make a thousand or two, you are in a world of pain.
| yayr wrote:
| or this:
|
| https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-go-advance-black-edit...
|
| and it does come with a more digestible price tag
| throwawaygh wrote:
| _> That's about it. Could you do all of this with a smartphone?
| Yeah, kinda, if you root prepaid Android phone, but even that
| would cost more than $30._
|
| You can almost certainly do better than $30 on local
| marketplaces, or by asking friends if they have a disused
| smartphone sitting around.
|
| reusing is absurdly cost efficient
| karmakaze wrote:
| One of my old smartphones and a portable/folding keyboard would
| be my pick.
|
| I do love the look of the form-factor though. Want to need it.
| WaxProlix wrote:
| It'd be great if there were some standardized way to turn older
| smartphones, whose on-paper computing power is astronomical,
| into viable Linux servers or controllers.
|
| I've got plenty of old shit phones around that barely respond
| to touch (or whose displays are just outright unusable) but I'm
| here considering a new rpi for my next project instead of
| repurposing one.
|
| There's also a ton of leftover supply of these things, and they
| have built in power backups, networking, and often lots of
| shared platform parts (ie, target just one snapdragon based
| platform and get a swath of compatibility in the galaxy s3 era
| or whatever).
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| For a server, I feel like termux might be sufficient?
| WaxProlix wrote:
| For a server, I likely don't need or even want most of the
| stuff that's on a stock android install (or even kernel).
| GPS, audio, graphics drivers, mic, camera, SMS, etc are all
| worthless at best. Bluetooth (and maybe wifi, if you're
| USB-plugged) represent explicit unnecessary attack surface
| for a device that I'll be running with dodgy ported
| software inside my home network.
|
| Good for proof-of-concepting tho, I bet.
| puzzlingcaptcha wrote:
| There is a community effort in the form of postmarketOS but
| the support for many devices is quite limited
| https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices
|
| Peripherals using proprietary drivers being the obvious
| offenders.
| WaxProlix wrote:
| Totally cool, but more geared towards rehabilitating old
| devices than repurposing. Still probably a lot of the work
| done there could be repurposed (reverse engineered drivers
| or code for working with a SoC) for plug in server
| functionality. Thanks for the link, I'll waste some time on
| it :)
| officeplant wrote:
| This does remind me that I have a OnePlus 3T laying around in a
| drawer that would be an excellent degoogled Android device. And
| my old HTC Dream / Tmobile G1 that I have Android 2.2 on if I
| wanted a full keyboard...
| haunter wrote:
| This is like the "budget" posts on /r/DIY: "porch renovation for
| only $200!" > proceeds to use the industrial sawmill they have in
| the garage that costs $100k
| gmiller123456 wrote:
| Not sure where you're getting that idea. All of the parts are
| purchased, then assembled. There's really no tooling beyond
| what most electronics enthusiasts would have at home.
| foxfluff wrote:
| How much would it change the cost to put in a Sochip S3, which
| has 128MB of RAM and can run at 800-900 MHz (if not more)?
| synergy20 wrote:
| looks cute, it took me a while to figure out what's the user
| case(or the market)
|
| so far I have no idea where I need it
| vlunkr wrote:
| That sounds pretty cool actually. I've used a shell or ssh on my
| phone; it's fun,but the lack of a physical keyboard makes things
| incredibly awkward.
| Gormisdomai wrote:
| One reason I'd love one of these (or a generally cheap low power
| linux PC) is just so I could e.g. muck around with e.g. code golf
| or advetnt-of-code programming puzzles on my commute.
| Ecco wrote:
| The display price in the BoM is absolutely not where the market
| is at today... I'm not even sure it has ever been there. I'd love
| to have more info on where they are supposedly getting a panel
| for this price.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I'm wondering if we can use the same principle to design a
| miniature cell phone: can only text and make phone calls, very
| small screen, small keys, etc, using cheap components.
| mlac wrote:
| Yes, then sell it to minimalists for $300:
| https://www.thelightphone.com/
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Wow the price point is way above. I'm thinking about the mini
| phone in the movie Taken 2. I actually found a website to
| purchase a year ago but couldn't find it right now.
| all2 wrote:
| I've been thinking about this, too. On Linux this looks like a
| configuration nightmare of bodging together USB GSM/3G/4G/5G
| modems and piped commands [0].
|
| No doubt there's a better way.
|
| [0] https://www.techytalk.info/send-receive-sms-using-gsm-
| modem-...
| ineedasername wrote:
| There was a time when the first question asked of such a device
| would be "Can it run Doom?"
|
| If you don't remember that time, then I guess I'm getting old.
|
| In any case, it's nearly a useless question these days: very few
| things with a chip are so dumb they can't run Doom.
|
| We need a new metric.
| WaxProlix wrote:
| "Can it run crysis?"
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| Like the idea. Reconsider the keyboard. If we presume the target
| users are other than first-world, the likelihood of only have one
| hand or missing fingers increases significantly.
|
| The keyboard becomes very cumbersome.
|
| (source: found out the hard way when brought toys that require
| two hands or all fingers to play with, in worn-torn countries.)
| mackrevinack wrote:
| the keyboard could do with having a flat base as well. it looks
| like it would rock all over the place when you type, even when
| using it with two hands
| arduinomancer wrote:
| Do you mean the keyboard being split across the screen would be
| hard to use for those people?
| nfriedly wrote:
| That F1C100s CPU is the same one that's used for Business Card
| Linux [1] as well as a bunch of cheap ($20~40) handheld retro
| gaming consoles that run Linux and emulators. It can handle
| emulating NES, most SNES games, Sega Genesis & Game Gear, Game
| Boy Color and most GBA games, even a few PS1 games like FFVII.
|
| I bet it wouldn't take too much work to port the Miyoo Custom
| Firmware [2] over to it.
|
| Also, the CPU can be overclocked to 700-800mhz pretty trivially.
| It gives a nice little bump in performance and it doesn't even
| have much effect on the power draw.
|
| [1]: https://github.com/thirtythreeforty/businesscard-linux
|
| [2]: https://github.com/TriForceX/MiyooCFW
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Where are the cursor keys? Back to vi-keys I guess
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| One comparable here is the Raspberry Pi 400 at $70. That doesn't
| have a screen but has a lot more CPU, etc.
| throwanem wrote:
| Doesn't have a battery either, although there's room in the
| case for one or two flat cells from a laptop pack plus a charge
| controller.
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