[HN Gopher] Get ahead by not shooting yourself in the foot
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Get ahead by not shooting yourself in the foot
Author : artpi
Score : 73 points
Date : 2022-01-24 17:40 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (piszek.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (piszek.com)
| mdoms wrote:
| Buying a house is, by far and away, the best thing I have ever
| done for my personal happiness and wellbeing. Have I constrained
| myself financially? Yes, sure. But every day I work in my garden,
| work in projects in my garage, take on home improvement projects
| etc. Despite the constraints, I have never felt more free. I
| would never, EVER go back to renting. Ever.
| anyfoo wrote:
| I grew up in Germany, where, for reasons I don't really know or
| understand right now, paying rent has been common and normal
| across a large part of the population since long before I was
| born. Buying an apartment or even house to live in almost seemed
| to be more like a "luxury" for rich people to me.
|
| I moved to the US a decade ago, and (I knew this before) the
| mindset seems to be that renting is only a temporary situation,
| until you finally settle down buying "your" house to raise your
| family in. People talk about their "first house" or "starter
| home", terms that aren't really common in Germany at all. Buying
| property isn't totally uncommon there, but often happens much
| later in life, and many people are happy never doing so at all.
|
| I always felt that differing mindset has been doing me a service,
| as I feel zero compulsion to buy property until the conditions
| are really _fully_ satisfactory. I am aware that any rent I pay
| is "gone", while the mortgage ultimately pays into a principal,
| but so far the overall equation taking everything into account
| (also including those aspects without a directly gaugeable
| monetary value that the article mentions) did not tip over
| towards owning yet.
| __turbobrew__ wrote:
| Something else to factor is that Germany probably has much
| stronger rental protections than many US states. Renter-
| landlord rights are fundamentally at tension so jurisdictions
| have to choose where that balance lies. If rights are lopsided
| towards the landlord it becomes much less desirable to rent
| because you have little control over your living situation.
| anyfoo wrote:
| Almost certainly, yeah. I try to counteract this by choosing
| "good landlords" (a lesson I learned after my first apartment
| here, which was owned by a corporation that was terrible to
| deal with), but there's only so much you can do of course.
| Right now we lucked out, and it feels mutually beneficial.
| schimmy_changa wrote:
| A big piece of this is that 30-year mortgages in the USA are
| strongly subsidized and encouraged (see, mortgage interest tax
| deduction, loan guarantees, flood insurance, sewer and road
| system subsidies, etc). So for a middle-class person, there's a
| giant incentive to buy a house as it's the next-best thing
| after 401k matches to 'free money'.
|
| Meanwhile, as we continue to not build housing (a trend over
| the last ~50 years), the price of renting continues to increase
| and the value of a house that you had previously bought also
| increases.
|
| I would rather avoid buying a house for flexibility reasons,
| but it just seems like such a waste when I compare against my
| peers who have bought property. Hopefully things change, but
| these are some of the reasons why it's such a good deal in
| Germany vs the US to rent. (granted I don't know much about the
| German side)
| [deleted]
| anyfoo wrote:
| > Meanwhile, as we continue to not build housing (a trend
| over the last ~50 years), the price of renting continues to
| increase and the value of a house that you had previously
| bought also increases.
|
| Yeah, that of course would be the major incentive to buy a
| house. But on the other hand, living in the Bay Area, buying
| into this market feels a bit like gambling to me. Do I really
| believe property prices will come crashing down? Not really.
| Am I certain enough to lock myself into a suboptimal
| situation at a gargantuan price? Also no...
| jlokier wrote:
| Aside from finance, a big motivation to buy a home in the UK is
| to have more self-determination in your home life. Renting
| places you under someone else's control to a large extent.
|
| You often can't decorate much. Can't fit better windows, and
| windows where I've rented have usually been poor quality. Can't
| replace the washing machine even if it's not working properly.
| Can't put up shelves.
|
| Can't fit solar panels or better insulation, or replace
| carpets. Sometimes you can't even paint the walls.
|
| In the town where I live nearly all rental properties are
| "furnished", to the point that there aren't many unfurnished
| properties to choose from. This means you can't change the
| furniture - couches, tables, curtains (drapes), beds, wardrobes
| etc. Often there is an old TV you would never choose for
| yourself. Of course you do make some choices when you decide
| where to move into, but there may not be anything particularly
| to your own taste, and what you want will change over time
| anyway.
|
| Aside from the lack of self-determination while in there, there
| is a constant threat of "no reason" evictions which landlords
| exercise from time to time. Because no reason is given, it
| doesn't take much. I've seen it done sometimes by rental
| property agents just so they can advertise a large rent
| increase on the open market which would not seem reasonable
| applied to the existing tenant - that time, the landlord didn't
| particularly want the tenant out, but the agent saw a chance to
| get their new-tenancy fees and advised the landlord to evict.
|
| Long term stability in a rental property is a luxury in some
| areas, and finding another property nearby may not be possible.
| Got a child in school? Don't assume they will be able to stay
| in the same school.
|
| I have encountered rental situations where it is required to
| pay 12 months rent up front every year during the tenancy (on
| top of 1.5 months deposit) - but only if you're not well off
| enough to qualify for monthly rental payment. This sucks if the
| reason you are moving is because of a no-reason eviction from a
| previous place, so you quickly need to find another property as
| well as 13.5 months worth of rent at short notice. Naturally,
| you can't use the deposit from the previous place in that
| scenario as you won't get it in time, and you won't get all of
| it.
|
| Speaking of 12 months, in the town where I live and I gather in
| many others, 12 month tenancies are the maximum you can get.
| Technically every year there's a new tenancy, usually with new
| contract fees to pay, and the possibility they might decide not
| to renew it. If you're really unlucky there might be a new
| credit and income check each renewal, which you will fail if
| you fell on hard times, such as between jobs. This duration is
| because UK law has additional tenant protections with tenancies
| longer than 12 months. So of course landlords don't offer them.
| anyfoo wrote:
| Yes, most of these things are indeed different in Germany
| (and I knew of most of the situation in the UK, I know people
| who lived or live there and the differences are wild). For
| example:
|
| > You often can't decorate much.
|
| No issue unless you fix it back up when you move out.
|
| > Can't fit better windows, and windows where I've rented
| have usually been poor quality.
|
| There must be laws in Germany, because I don't remember
| living in an apartment where the windows weren't top notch.
| That's also very necessary with temperatures sometimes going
| below -10degC.
|
| > Can't replace the washing machine even if it's not working
| properly.
|
| Like all appliances, furniture, _anything_ , it's "bring your
| own" in Germany (unless you have a common laundry area... not
| super common I think).
|
| > Can't put up shelves.
|
| Same as before, as long as you fix up the holes when you move
| out, not an issue.
|
| > Can't fit solar panels or better insulation,
|
| Don't know about solar panels. Like windows, never lived in
| an apartment without proper insulation in Germany (in the US
| on the other hand...).
|
| > or replace carpets.
|
| You can put in whatever floor you like as far as I know, and
| I've done so.
|
| > Sometimes you can't even paint the walls.
|
| Definitely not an issue in Germany.
|
| This confirms my impression that renting in the UK is indeed
| very different from renting in Germany. It seems like the UK
| also treats renting as more of a short term arrangement,
| while in Germany people may spend decades or their entire
| life in their rental apartment, so it's their space to
| create.
| closetnerd wrote:
| I get the general attitude/perspective and I'm largely in
| agreement.
|
| I'll nit-pick on his point of buying experiences vs things.
|
| Though I agree that instagrammable experiences don't have much
| meaningful value, I do value a lot experiences where I paid not
| an insignificant amount of money.
|
| I'm assuming the author meant some balance but called something
| out based on his impression of an audience (maybe some projection
| on his part). But "paid experiences" can meaningfully lead to
| personal growth, perspective of other countries/peoples,
| deepening friendships.
|
| That being said - you should have good long term finances to even
| make all that viable.
| jayroh wrote:
| Not to be that guy but I'll be that guy
|
| > Don't loose your asset
|
| Did you mean ... "Don't LOSE your asset"?
|
| (sorry)
| artpi wrote:
| Updated! Thank you - English is my second language and that
| sort of thing still catches me off-guard
| chucksta wrote:
| English is my only proficient language and I still mix those
| up :)
| godot wrote:
| I feel like I agree with this in principle but the examples
| almost feel backwards to me. The bullet points under buying a
| house seems to be specifically about: 1) Overstretching your
| budget to buy bigger houses than you can afford, 2) Buying
| somewhere very remote where there are no job opportunities if you
| don't work remote, 3) Leisure options and friends are far away.
| None of these points are about _buying a house_ itself as a
| decision (vs, renting).
|
| Depending on your timing and location, renting is way more of a
| shoot-yourself-in-the-foot decision than buying a house. I
| graduated from college in mid-2000s and after a few years finally
| saved up to buy a house in early 2010s. Plenty of my peers saw no
| real need to this and continued renting through the decade of
| 2010-2020 while seeing home prices rise to unaffordable levels. I
| acknowledge that I got lucky in my timing and location (bay
| area), but it's hard to imagine a scenario where buying doesn't
| make sense when you can afford to. If nothing else, a (fixed
| rate) mortgage at least guarantees your monthly housing payment
| won't increase, vs rent. The _decision_ to rent (as in, not being
| forced to rent because you cannot afford to buy) seems way more
| footgun-ish.
|
| On the jobs section, the way most people choose jobs is insane,
| not by choice but more because it really is that hard and luck-
| based choosing a job. Over my career, I got to the "choose a
| random company whose recruiter just happened to reach out" point
| and landed a job, twice, and these both happen to be jobs I loved
| and stayed for a long time. Notably, another time, I moved to a
| company because I had a lot of friends working there so I knew
| I'd enjoy the people there, it didn't work out after a year and a
| half for other reasons than the people. The point of this all is,
| it's just really difficult to know what really matters at a job
| and company, so it's really hard to call this a footgun decision.
| foobarian wrote:
| Sounds to me like author has had some bad experiences and is
| trying to generalize them. But I would have been curious to read
| about those things directly that inspired the author to write
| this, instead of the indirect points. It all seems reasonable
| stuff that most of us do when picking a place to live, work, etc.
| Of course buying a house will pin you to the surrounding area.
| And I don't know if anybody does that without at least examining
| the house and area in person at least once, instead of just going
| by photos. Anyway.
| artpi wrote:
| Precisely the opposite! Author is annoyed listening to friends
| complaining about mistakes that would have been easily avoided
| if they took time to think.
| foobarian wrote:
| I appreciate your reply. Understandable that it probably
| would not be too polite to go into identifiable details in
| public then. :)
| virgilp wrote:
| You'd be surprised how otherwise perfectly rational people look
| at irrelevant stuff (furniture, interior design) and miss
| important things (floor plans; neighbors; practical aspects
| like storage space, number and position of bathrooms, etc)
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Complains about pop ups and modals on the modern web.. has an
| email modal pop up randomly while you are reading.
| artpi wrote:
| Busted!
| sillyquiet wrote:
| > The typical employment lifecycle of an engineer is: Get
| frustrated by the current company culture and/or benefits, let
| this frustration sit for way too long, snap and choose a random
| company whose recruiter just happened to reach out, join there,
| and repeat the cycle all over again.
|
| It's scary how real this is, but it's easy to say "don't do
| that", when all the inhibitions about leaving your current job
| rotate around some seriously bottom levels of Maslow's hierarchy
| of needs - you literally could be without home and (in the US)
| healthcare if you do this precipitously or without somewhere to
| jump to, or if you make a poor choice in jumping.
|
| Not saying it's good to sit pat until things get so bad you
| can't, but there's real scary things behind folk's decisions to
| stay and weather the horseshit at a place.
| artpi wrote:
| Hey - author here:
|
| Yeah, I kind of forgot to caveat it all with how unreasonably
| good I have it as a programmer, and that story refers to my
| programmer friends, who like to marinate a little too long in
| bad jobs that they could have easily changed
| dominotw wrote:
| it is really hard to gauge company culture from outside when
| you are interviewing them. I don't see how this problem can be
| solved.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| There are now sites for anonymous feedback on companies, such
| as Glassdoor or Blind, but those are always suspect to either
| corporate astroturfing or random trolling.
| mprovost wrote:
| The takeaway here is to leave before you're frustrated. While
| things are still good. That is when you are in the best
| position and frame of mind to make a change. Because you can
| walk away from any offer that isn't better. If you wait until
| things are terrible then yes you can feel trapped in a bad
| situation because you have to pay the bills.
| cacioepepe wrote:
| The tricky part, as it was for me, was when things _change_.
| Things can be great somewhere, and then something at very
| high levels cause trickledown, and before you know it, minor
| problems turn into complete institutional dysfunction. It 's
| like the butterfly effect, but with organizational
| dysfunction.
|
| Add your spouse having other constraints, and it becomes a
| mess to navigate sometimes.
| [deleted]
| serverholic wrote:
| If I did this I'd be finding a new job every 3-6 months.
|
| Over time I've realized that I'm not going to be happy in any
| 9-5 position, so I might as well save as much money as I can
| until I can afford to do something else.
| sillyquiet wrote:
| sure sure, but given the (potential) downsides of choosing
| wrong, what would be the trigger or reason for leaving IF
| things are still good?
|
| Or are you saying if you see signs of things going downhill
| but things are currently good?
| mprovost wrote:
| Compare it to investing. Do you wait for the stock to go
| down and then sell, or do you sell when it's high and take
| your profit elsewhere? Even if you invest it in something
| that then goes down, you still made your profit. If you
| move before things get bad, you'll always be able to look
| back at your time at the company with happiness. No burnt
| bridges, no bitterness. Sure it's a risk to move somewhere
| else, but in this other world where you wait for things to
| get bad before moving then 100% of the time you're signing
| up for some period where your (work) life sucks.
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| What is the indexed linked mutual fund of this analogy?
| Perhaps focusing on a specific technology or skillset
| such that you can be a contractor providing services to a
| range of other companies without having a commited
| relationship with any of them? (The index being your
| choice of technology / skills)
| mattnewton wrote:
| The index fund is the safe, big multinational corp that
| will never make you rich but probably never lay you off,
| just shuffle you around between orgs and pay for your
| retraining.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Employment is fundamentally different from investing,
| because while all dollars are interchangeable and easily
| reallocated, almost nothing about a person is.
| lhorie wrote:
| As the job interview adage goes, you're interviewing them
| just as much as they're interviewing you. If you're
| dabbling in the market to see what's available while things
| are good, you don't have as much pressure to accept subpar
| offers and you have leverage to negotiate better offers.
|
| It's the same as setting up wish lists and checking on them
| periodically. You're much more likely to get a good deal if
| you keep tabs on the thing you want over a long period of
| time than just hoping you get a deal the moment you have
| the impulse to buy the thing.
| nefitty wrote:
| More money. More impressive title. Wanting to relocate.
| Downsizing. Learn new tech stacks/skills not available at
| your current job. Scoping out a new industry to prepare for
| launching a business.
| [deleted]
| v1l wrote:
| I'd suggest that the reason most people don't leave sooner is
| not because it's scary but because the barrier to switch
| (finding, vetting, interviewing) is high. Just the thought of
| expending that effort is enough to discourage most and stay
| put.
| habeebtc wrote:
| Incredibly scary, and on point. Definitely describes how I have
| moved around jobs.
|
| It's articles like this that make me realize how fortunate I am
| to work in Tech, which has a really low unemployment rate. It's
| pretty easy to get a job that pays the bills (if your bills are
| reasonable) - it's more difficult to get one which is higher
| than your last one.
| edmcnulty101 wrote:
| The key would be to pick a good company/team but are there any?
|
| I haven't found any, my work history is littered with terribly
| managed companies where nepotism is more important than
| competence, business people run tech departments with no tech
| experience, had a CEO go to jail for bribery which shut the
| company down, another company my entire team was let go 6
| months after I started. Recruiters and companies who ghost you
| during applications with out even a polite no thanks email.
|
| I was raised by boomers who taught me if you just work hard and
| do the right thing your company will reward you but that has
| not even remotely miniscuely been my experience in the tech
| world.
|
| Heard even a FAANG can be a nightmare if on the wrong team.
|
| So how to identify a safe landing spot?
| sdw1 wrote:
| My experiences at every company I've worked for (and the
| reasons I've departed from them) in my career have all given
| me additional signals to scan for in the recruitment stage,
| be it tech stack, culture, advancement, mentorship, etc. It's
| not a perfect system, but it's self-reinforcing and
| constantly improving -- I'm fortunate to be able to select
| for things I need/want and am not currently getting when I'm
| actively searching. This includes a comparatively brief but
| ultimately very stressful period of unemployment where the
| most important signal was "this role will pay me a salary".
|
| Some bottom-of-the-barrel firehouses will absolutely
| disqualify themselves through their signaling in interview
| loops. But I think the reality is that at most places the
| dysfunction just won't become evident until you've been
| working there for a bit and the cracks start showing.
|
| Which brings us back to another huge advantage of tech -- I
| think the "safest" landing spot (assuming your personal non-
| negotiables are satisfied) is the spot that gives you the
| most financial security to leave when you've seen enough.
| Assuming you have a good handle on your standards/costs of
| living and risk tolerance, after a certain breakpoint, more
| money saved means more time and less time-pressure to find
| the signals you care about. I don't think a "dream job"
| exists for me, but a better one always does.
| edmcnulty101 wrote:
| > But I think the reality is that at most places the
| dysfunction just won't become evident until you've been
| working there for a bit and the cracks start showing
|
| This has been my experience too.
|
| Companies rigorously test candidates for the right fit.
|
| But I have not yet found how to accurately test for a
| company with a sane healthy working environment.
| switch007 wrote:
| I find some people really romanticize renting. It varies by
| country I guess. It sucks in the UK/Ireland. Here are some
| downsides to renting off the top of my head:
|
| - Getting kicked out when the landlord wants to sell or "move in
| their family"
|
| - No pets
|
| - No decorating (painting walls etc)
|
| - Landlord taking up to 12 months to repair basic things, if at
| all ("well, you accepted the property when X was broken/in Y
| condition")
|
| - Landlords trying to scam you out of deposits
|
| - Poorly maintained properties
|
| - Up to 25% annual increases in rent
|
| - Moderate to extreme difficulty actually finding somewhere
|
| - Mold. It's incredible how many rentals have mold problems (in
| my experience)
|
| - Moving costs if you are forced to move frequently
| haltingproblem wrote:
| Or as I have learnt the haaaard way - amateurs win at [insert
| sport] tennis by not making unforced errors i.e. just return the
| ball and make sure your serve is not out... most of the time and
| you are good. Pros win by hitting aces and shots.
|
| At most games in life we are amateurs - buying cars,
| buying/renting houses, getting jobs since we don't do those
| things frequently enough to get good at them and learn all the
| tricks and traps. We can try to get a _great_ deal on a car but
| that is near impossible - try and avoid the usual traps and you
| are doing good enough.
|
| Buying "too much" house is one of those traps. Buying a house
| that needs too much work is another. Buying a house with an
| expensive amenity (e.g. swimming pool or too big of a garage or
| lawn) is another.
| jlizzle30 wrote:
| > Here are the dragons: ... Buying a house or an apartment will
| disproportionately affect other areas of your life
|
| I agree with the general caution about buying a property and the
| baggage it comes with. Unfortunately with kids there be dragons
| in renting as well: having to move when getting priced out.
| artpi wrote:
| I (author) have a kid, a dog, an apartment and a summer house I
| inherited. I definitely speak from experience here and am not
| specifically against anything in particular, except rushing
| into decisions.
|
| Houses have sizes, locations and whole spectrum of varieties
| that can be taken into account!
| periheli0n wrote:
| > Unfortunately with kids there be dragons in renting as well:
| having to move when getting priced out.
|
| And the cost of moving with kids is much greater than moving
| alone or as a couple. You will need to find new schools,
| activities, etc. It constrains your search space and will
| inevitably take a toll on your time budget.
|
| The areas with decent schools etc also tend to be more
| expensive. When you buy property in such an area you can at
| least lock in a flat rate on your rent for the next 10-20 years
| or so, until your kids have grown up and can leave the nest.
|
| So it does make a lot of sense to buy when you have kids.
| Either way, those "risky career moves" are anyhow much less of
| a good idea when you need to provide for a family.
|
| Even as a couple it can be a challenge to move because of your
| career -- it's rare that both partners get a career bump out of
| a joint move.
| mcguire wrote:
| That's a corollary: Don't have kids. They're like shooting your
| life in the foot with a howitzer. Also, don't get married; the
| author says they got lucky, but we'll have to see the long term
| before you can make that conclusion. In fact, just stay away
| from other people. They are an emotional and financial
| liability.
|
| (This is sarcasm, of course, although I suspect the author is
| serious about avoiding things that many people find
| meaningful.)
| Dwelve wrote:
| Getting ahead is the most important thing in life!
| irishloop wrote:
| That's right. And not for its intrinsic value, but to
| impress others!
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(page generated 2022-01-24 23:17 UTC)