[HN Gopher] Farming Co. Says John Deere Is Monopolizing Repair M...
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Farming Co. Says John Deere Is Monopolizing Repair Market
Author : cwwc
Score : 185 points
Date : 2022-01-18 13:54 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.law360.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.law360.com)
| vishvananda wrote:
| I hadn't been following the "Right to Repair" movement too
| closely until I discovered that NordicTrack recently locked their
| users out of Privileged Mode[0], which makes it virtually
| impossible to install 3rd party software like Netflix on my
| treadmill. I just want to watch a video while I exercise!
|
| [0]: https://www.wired.com/story/nordictrack-ifit-treadmill-
| privi...
| newaccount2021 wrote:
| stevenharrison wrote:
| Source is paywalled, this might be better:
| https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-pro...
|
| There's other tractor manufacturers, farmers don't have to use
| JD.
| randomdata wrote:
| _> farmers don 't have to use JD._
|
| I have a bunch of different colours in my shed. The only
| appreciable difference I've noticed is that when I needed the
| service manual to fix something, the CaseIH dealer slapped a
| book down in front of me. The tech at the Deere dealer had to
| enter a password on a computer to decrypt it for me. Neither
| seemed terribly concerned about providing the information,
| though.
| DamnYuppie wrote:
| The tech analogy is basically similar to those who have their
| tech stack as Microsoft .NET vs Go. You can switch but it isn't
| as easy as just buying all new equipment.
|
| Another point is JD is far more than just tractors so if you
| run a farm you will have many large pieces of equipment which
| you paid millions for so not so easy to just go and buy new
| stuff.
| fartcannon wrote:
| The future of life on earth depends on there being no limitations
| on repairing, modifying, or extending the things we buy.
| frankfrankfrank wrote:
| On a related side note. I find that this is yet another topic
| that highlights the need for efforts to bring legislation back in
| line with Constitutional principles of being outcome, not method
| oriented; descriptive, not prescriptive.
|
| What that may mean is that legislation would require, e.g., that
| anyone doing any business with the government or using any
| government/public services (e.g., GPS) must utilize technologies
| that are common and compatible with each other both physically
| (parts) and data (communications, controls, etc.).
|
| We are facing a situation that was last encountered or at least
| recognized in the late 80s and 90s, where silos and cartels were
| starting to emerge that led to massive waste and pillage of at
| least the public coffers. That led to a wave of standardization
| efforts in the late 90s and early 00s. That wave seems to have
| started dying out and really needs to be revitalized.
| conradev wrote:
| 1000%
|
| For example, California wants to electrify lawn equipment:
| https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/zero-emission-lands...
|
| There are a number of competing ecosystems of batteries. They
| each have a leaf blower that takes a different form factor
| battery:
|
| https://www.ryobitools.com/products/details/46396029911
|
| https://www.dewalt.com/products/outdoor/blowers/20v-max-lith...
|
| https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/Safety-Solutions/Emis...
|
| Batteries are expensive and use a lot of carbon to produce, so
| the world would be better off if these batteries were fully
| interchangeable.
| aardvarkr wrote:
| Action like that would freeze innovation at a time when we
| want to keep pushing the boundaries of what is possible. All
| three of those systems use different voltages or designs that
| change power output and weight distribution. On top of that,
| each brand is incentivized to keep experimenting to improve
| the battery design for their specific use cases. Dewalt, for
| example, is making lawn mowers that use two of their 20v
| batteries in parallel so you can use the same batteries in
| your mower as you do in your drill. The Ryobi batteries
| haven't changed since they were first introduced so the old
| drill that you bought in 2014 is still usable with today's
| batteries.
| alfalfasprout wrote:
| The problem is that such an approach requires a fair bit of
| nuance to get it right and not stifle innovation. For example,
| the last thing anyone wants is the establishment of super slow
| to change standards that bring everyone to the "lowest common
| denominator".
|
| I believe that simply requiring certain standards to have a
| freely available specification + right to repair will get us in
| a good place.
| Cupertino95014 wrote:
| On agricultural issues: be careful about making assumptions.
|
| I was talking about the labels on fruits (you know, those labels
| you just peel off so you don't eat them) with someone who knew
| about this sort of thing . I ignorantly said "that's gotta be a
| low-margin business."
|
| He said, "Actually, it's a high-margin business."
|
| If you get a monopoly in some market that's _very_ difficult to
| enter, you 've got yourself a steady cash flow. I don't think
| "repairing tractors out in the middle of nowhere" is a very easy
| one to get into.
| MisterTea wrote:
| > I don't think "repairing tractors out in the middle of
| nowhere" is a very easy one to get into.
|
| Not as hard as you think (I've worked on cars, vans and even
| semi trucks). By the local Autozone (a chain of automotive
| parts store) there is a man who repairs cars on the street out
| of a an old, short school bus. He also does house calls. He has
| a generator, air compressor, welder, jacks, engine hoist, all
| the tools needed, and even some parts. Same setup would enable
| tractor repair with the addition of some heavier tools to
| handle the larger bolts and so on.
|
| John Deere is electronically locking their equipment so no one
| but them can figure out whats wrong or reset/clear error codes
| to restore normal operation. It's just shenanigans.
| bluGill wrote:
| Every tractor comes with a display in the cab that tells you
| what the code means. This display is populated from the same
| database that goes into John Deere's dealer service tool. I
| wrote some of that code. (I don't speak for John Deere of
| course)
|
| The only thing you cannot do without a dealer is replace a
| ECU. This is part anti-theft, and part to ensure you don't
| mess with the emissions.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| I understand the tractor repair example to some degree, though
| "difficult to enter" in the case of Deere is largely because
| Deere is making it difficult.
|
| But how is the market for fruit labels difficult to enter?
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Well, I can only speculate, not having tried.
|
| It could be that the farmers & handlers already know the main
| suppliers and they're satisfied with them: low prices, good
| service, acceptable quality. And they're not looking for even
| lower prices.
|
| If you have a monopoly and you've ridden the learning curve
| far enough that you're making a good profit while not pissing
| off your customers, and the market is pretty static, you're
| in.
|
| But I could be wrong.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| I'd hazard it's probably due to order of magnitude
| different absolute profit amounts.
|
| E.g. you can double _your_ margins on fruit labels, and
| still be a rounding error for fruit producers
|
| Consequently, being invisible and fanatically attentive to
| what your customers want (e.g. ease of use) means the
| hassle of switching suppliers outweighs the cost savings.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I was pondering this while walking the dog: family-run
| businesses, small business, etc.
|
| _In some businesses, having been around for a long time,
| being part of the community, and knowing your customers
| is worth WAY more than a few points of profit. In fact,
| those businesses are everywhere. Look and see who buys
| the ads for the high school sports teams.
|
| Tractor repair ought to be like that. Not the monopoly of
| John Deere._
|
| (I don't know anything about who owns fruit-labelling,
| and it might even _be_ some giant conglomerate.)
|
| But let's say someone owns such a loyalty business,
| everything is great, and then they die or retire. Then
| what?
|
| It's the source of a million dramas, like _Yellowstone_
| or _King Lear_. Maybe a son or daughter takes over. Then
| they 're incompetent. Or not. Maybe the kids fight over
| it. The possibilities are endless.
|
| Or maybe the giant conglomerate DOES buy it. Promising
| "nothing will change" of course.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| I think often... it just ceases to exist.
|
| E.g. What happens when the local diner goes out of
| business? There's no Law of Diners that mandates someone
| else step up. Sure, a McDonald's or Wendy's might drop
| in. But that's not really the same thing. (Restaurants
| are the obvious example, but it could just as easily be a
| machinist or florist. Flavor analogy to desired niche
| industry)
|
| As an example: Royall Machine, Lottsburg, VA https://www.
| google.com/maps/place/2461+Northumberland+Hwy,+L...
|
| Was there for 30+ years. Could make about anything you
| needed out of metal. Now, just isn't.
|
| And moreover, the customers, having become cultured to
| dealing with the existing business, now have to radically
| alter their expectations when interacting with a more
| corporate entity. McMaster-Carr is great, but it's a darn
| sight different than bringing in a broken part, and
| having a duplicate made in about a week.
| Frost1x wrote:
| People tend to overestimate how reasonable it is to become a
| real competitor. Just because someone's sitting on a fluffy
| market with fat margins doesn't mean competition will just fly
| in and regulate pricing structures down for consumers.
|
| Typically, quite the opposite happens and investors and
| entrepreneurs see the opportunity to compete, but quickly
| discount it because the risk to compete is too high relative to
| barriers to entry. As long as your barriers to entry are high
| enough, a bonus if on of the barriers is capital intensive
| (time is something many can sacrifice but capital can be
| conjured out of thin air), you're going to be nearly impossible
| to dethrone by a competitor coming in.
|
| You can usually spot competitors a mile away approaching the
| outermost mote your castle has and head them off early, perhaps
| establish an early friendship, or acquire them at a low cost
| before they get anywhere near the crown jewels. The trick is to
| get the foothold and momentum in a market. After that it's
| difficult for competitors to actually compete unless you're
| asleep at the wheel.
| excalibur wrote:
| Text is accurate, headline is misleading. Deere has had this
| market cornered for a while and nobody has done anything to stop
| them.
| mfer wrote:
| > nobody has done anything to stop them
|
| Sort of yes and no.
|
| No one has done anything to stop them just like no one has done
| anything to stop Apple or the other tech companies.
|
| Farmers have done a lot of lobbying and other work around right
| to repair just to work on their equipment. This includes being
| apart of efforts with the Library of Congress for the exemption
| that comes up every so often. They've been there alongside
| people in tech circles.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I'm sure we'll see a Tesla tractor (Teslactor? Tesla model T?
| Elon Deere?) being announced at some point, never to actually
| make it production. Built for farming on Mars. With gullwing
| doors and autopilot (I'm aware that modern tractors have
| autopilot too), made out of stainless steel.
| nyxtom wrote:
| Believe it or not Lamborghini for instance does make a
| tractor that is pretty beefy https://www.lamborghini-
| tractors.com/en-eu/ I would not be surprised to see Tesla
| enter that market some time down the road
| throwaway6734 wrote:
| Iirc Lamborghini started as a tractor company
| mijoharas wrote:
| Yep, he actually started making cars after getting into
| an argument with Enzo Ferrari.
|
| I just googled to find the reference[0], but apparantly
| he had a problem with his clutch, went to ferrari and
| suggested some easy ways that ferrari could make their
| clutches last longer. Ferrari responds with:
|
| > "Let me make cars. You stick to making tractors." -
| Enzo Ferrari
|
| Which obviously didn't go down too well. Then Lamborghini
| started making cars.
|
| [0] https://www.granturismoevents.com/story-the-epic-
| story-behin...
| kwhitefoot wrote:
| Jeremy Clarkson has a Lamborghini tractor,it's huge
| compared to most that you see in the UK..
| trembonator wrote:
| dogman144 wrote:
| Omaha has had a relatively robust tech meetup scene for a while
| because of stuff like this and interesting open source projects
| come out of the region+. The tractors have as much SW in them as
| a car does these days, and it was locked down to repair except by
| the manufacturer.
| coding123 wrote:
| So I'm gearing up to buy a Kubota FEL soon.
|
| Two reasons we passed on JD FEL is 1) financing isn't as good 2)
| you have to pay JD a yearly maintenance package AND take it in
| once a year otherwise your warranty is shit. That could be
| incorrect and just one dealer we spoke to, but it didn't add up
| with the better stuff we're hearing from the Kubota side.
| abakker wrote:
| I'm curious about the Value prop for an FEL. I bought a bobcat
| T590 last year because it had a lot of capacity - both PTO
| power and absolute ability to lift. It isn't good for turf, but
| I can pick up a 4000lb pallet. FELs all seemed to max out at
| ~1000 lbs for the same footprint.
|
| is the bucket really just not the use case for a FEL anymore?
| coding123 wrote:
| I think it is the use-case. I'm just working on my property.
| It's like a big lawn mower and landscaping tool. I am getting
| the backhoe so that I can do some light trenching work. I can
| also use it to plow through medium levels of bush in the way.
| Also good to help with spreading gravel or smoothing out a
| building pad. It's like - if you have a normal size house
| with 10k sq ft lot, you own a lawn mower. When you own 10
| acres or more, you probably need a tractor of some kind.
|
| edit: Sorry I see you were specifically discussing the FEL
| that can handle 4k vs 1k. Mostly Gravel is my largest use-
| case. I won't be able to pallet lift a ton of bricks, that is
| correct. But for the rest of the tool it's like a swiss army
| knife in that it has different attachments both on the front,
| the back (and the bottom).
| randomdata wrote:
| Interestingly, all my neighbours who have tried them are back
| to running Green machines. A good friend is the mechanic at the
| Kubota dealership and he speaks quite highly of them, though.
|
| May be a case of Deere getting aggressive. Another friend
| bought a new Steiger series tractor a few years ago and before
| it even showed up in his yard, Deere rolled in to make him an
| offer he couldn't refuse to trade it in.
| kentf wrote:
| Nilay Patel had a great interview with John Deere's CTO where he
| pressed him on the right to repair for farmers. Highly recommend
| the episode, and all decoder episodes, Nilay is a fantastic
| reporter and doesn't let his quests squeak away with half
| answers. https://www.theverge.com/22533735/john-deere-cto-
| hindman-dec...
| [deleted]
| frankfrankfrank wrote:
| Is there a reason that some Asian or even European competitors
| can't just come in and offer the same kind of features and
| services without all the lock-in, actively taking market share by
| being the anti-monopolist?
|
| Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see the brand loyalty to
| Deere lasting too much longer, especially if some of the Asian
| competitors can make offerings without all the shackling.
| wldcordeiro wrote:
| I imagine it's a smaller version of the American cars vs
| Japanese cars attitude that really peaked during the 70s and
| 80s. It's still around to this day where you meet people who
| are Chevy or Ford die-hards and hate all cars Japanese.
| Considering that trucks are often farming equipment and Chevy
| and Ford make trucks it would make sense people would have
| similar attitude about their dedicated farm equipment coming
| from John Deere vs Yamaha (a joke example since they make
| things from pianos to motorcycles.)
| isk517 wrote:
| Your probably on to something. I remember a lot of people
| getting excited when John Deere farm equipment was introduced
| into Farm Simulator 2019.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Because it's a heavily entrenched industry that's not easily
| disrupted, where each brand has carved it's on territory by
| geography and there's this silent gentlemen's agreement of "you
| stay out of my market, I stay out of yours and we all win"
| since even if the other competitor would attempt to come in the
| other market, it would face an uphill and insanely expensive
| battle just to enter the market, as in order to capture any
| market share it would need to undercut its competitor on cost
| while offering superior quality, while spending insane money on
| the supply chains and world class service and tech network
| which guarantees the up-time of your machinery, thereby
| weakening the profit margins not just for themselves but
| potentially the whole market.
|
| So why would you want to do something as risky and foolish as
| that when you got a good thing going?
| gunapologist99 wrote:
| > Because it's a heavily entrenched industry that's not
| easily disrupted, where each brand has carved it's on
| territory by geography and there's this silent gentlemen's
| agreement of "you stay out of my market, I stay out of yours
| and we all win
|
| Do you know that this is the case or are you speculating? It
| seems like there's an intense amount of competition,
| especially with imported farming equipment. (I have no idea
| if John Deere sells overseas or if it's mostly a domestic
| brand.)
|
| Some other manufacturers that seem to have big branding in
| the U.S. are New Holland (just found out they're owned by
| Fiat.. small world), Mahindra, and Kubota. Are those all part
| of this cartel that you're alleging exists?
| mitchell_h wrote:
| He's full of it. I do have a background in farming.
|
| Case, and Deere go head to head in almost every market. New
| Holland and a couple others also play in the same markets
| depending on what KIND of machine you're looking to run.
| Tillage tractors are pretty much fendt/challenger, NH,
| deere, case. When you get into combines/coppers other
| brands also play. For the consumer and/or smaller tractor
| market there's all sorts of options.
|
| Why people go deere or case is simple. It's the supply
| chains. You have N days to get your crop in the ground, and
| Y days to get your crop harvested. Deere and case have the
| best(and most expensive) field techs and dealer support. "A
| machine is only as good as your dealer support" is the
| phase almost everyone uses when shopping for equipment.
| Anyone with a significant investment of tractors(non-hobby
| farmers) can have a case or deere tech replace or fix damn
| near anything in hours or days, on site.
| randomdata wrote:
| _> Tillage tractors are pretty much fendt /challenger,
| NH, deere, case._
|
| Versatile is making inroads again. Starting to see quite
| a few of them around.
| akvadrako wrote:
| This seems the most imformative comment in this
| discussion.
|
| So if there is competition and Deere is really the best,
| I don't see the issue. The right incentives are there to
| make farming better.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> Do you know that this is the case or are you
| speculating?_
|
| I don't work in farming but I worked for an European HW
| manufacturer that's top in Europe in that niche and the CEO
| back then told us we're not aggressively pursuing expansion
| outside of Europe since US, China, Japan, Korea have their
| own local champions in this market and it's not profitable
| to go to war with them on their own turf, so he told us
| about this silent gentlemen's agreement where everyone
| keeps to his own market so we can all profit as "the pie is
| big enough for everyone, if we start fighting over it then
| we'd all lose". I assume the same business concept applies
| here.
| themadturk wrote:
| Case/New Holland/International Harvester were all American
| companies with roots going back to the mid-19th century, so
| they're seen as very "American" despite being owned by
| Fiat.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| And I think New Holland spun off from Ford at one point
| but I may be mistaken.
| onion2k wrote:
| _silent gentlemen 's agreement_
|
| We assume it's silent but we probably shouldn't. It could be
| a boring old cartel. Someone should check.
| giantg2 wrote:
| I'm not sure which brands are owned by Deere, but there are
| quite a few available in the US, depending on scale. I
| specifically think that LS is foreign, but don't remember for
| sure.
| jevoten wrote:
| Because after you spend $N billion catching up to Deere's
| manufacturing and expertise, they'll suddenly realize that yes,
| it's essential that farmers be able to control and repair their
| own equipment, and will use their massive war chest built on
| unethical practices to undercut you.
|
| And when you're out of business, they'll go back to their old
| ways.
| biorach wrote:
| It's not a monopoly. There are plenty of manufacturers in the
| market. However JD has significant, if not leading, market
| share in many markets along with being regarded as a premium
| brand, and has significant loyalty among a demographic where
| memories are long and loyalty counts.
|
| They do make really really good machines, and their top-end
| gear is very highly regarded. All the above has allowed them to
| get away with some dubious practices. However farmers are also
| very cost conscious and there is growing dissatisfaction at the
| blatant lock-in.
| [deleted]
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| What's their incentive to do that when they could come in with
| a different lock-in now that it's been proven to be profitable
| to do so by JD?
|
| > I can't see the brand loyalty to Deere lasting too much
| longer
|
| Here's an anecdote: if I go into Fleet Farm or Tractor Supply
| (farm supply stores), I see John Deere toy tractors, in fact my
| son has one: they're very well built. I don't think I've ever
| seen any other brand of toy tractor. That alone says a lot.
| assbuttbuttass wrote:
| I'm sure we on hacker news are more familiar with the tech side
| of right to repair, but farming is also a huge problem.
|
| JD walked so that Apple could run
| n4r9 wrote:
| Absolutely; Apple is the well-known offender but the issue
| extends to medical equipment, white goods, televisions and
| probably a whole lot more. This really is about preventing
| monopolies and I've seen basically no tenable argument against
| strengthening right to repair laws.
| all2 wrote:
| > white goods White fabrics, usually of
| cotton or linen.Household merchandise, as bed sheets and
| curtains, formerly made from white fabrics, but now often
| colored.Large household appliances, as ovens and
| refrigerators, formerly finished with white enamel, but now
| often colored. - American Heritage Dictionary
| [deleted]
| gunapologist99 wrote:
| This view might not be very popular, so I want to preface it
| with: I am very supportive of the right of repair, especially
| when it's being used to force expensive proprietary repairs,
| probably from a long way away (I'm sure shipping a tractor isn't
| quite like shipping an iphone), or when it's used to enforce a
| sort of planned obsolescence when the manufacturer just decides
| to stop maintaining in order to force you to upgrade.
|
| I'm curious, however, how much (in practical terms) John Deere
| would have to give or open up in terms of trade secrets in order
| to enable repairs (especially of super advanced stuff like fully
| autonomous farming), and to what extent they would need to open
| things up that offshore competitors might easily clone without
| having invested the millions (or billions?) that John Deere has
| already invested.
|
| Put another way, right now, _today_ , we have a farming equipment
| manufacturer based in the U.S. that is actually injecting some
| serious tech into a rather staid industry. John Deere seems to be
| turning into a highly innovative tech mfg company, in,
| ironically, one of the most expensive places to run a heavy
| equipment manufacturer.
|
| I view them as a huge asset, developing what appears to be
| interesting ideas in what was a pretty tech-adverse industry, and
| fully automated farming is probably also a key component for food
| security across the globe, U.S. national security, international
| stability, and probably needs to be a part of any climate change
| conversation.
|
| So, how much are we asking them to give up of their know-how
| where it might be cloned or worked-around by other companies?
|
| In the immortal words of Dr. Ian Malcolm, "You stood on the
| shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you
| could, and before you even knew what you had, you patented it,
| and packaged it, and slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now
| you wanna sell it."
|
| What if FOTMA or Yucheng Dadi Machinery Co
| (https://sdycdadi.en.made-in-china.com/product/EvdncAtVZXkZ/C...)
| or something like that decide to clone the most advanced John
| Deere tractors with their new access?
|
| If you are buying a quarter-million-dollar John Deere combine,
| you have probably already evaluated the rest of the industry and
| decided that the draconian DRM or whatever they're using is worth
| that very substantial investment. It's not like you might have
| just been browsing in the store for a $1 bottle of shampoo -- I'm
| sure you can't be a farmer without knowing, in detail, about this
| unable-to-repair problem with John Deere specifically, and might
| have even formed some strong opinions about it!
|
| And if you decide that it's not worth it, then you would choose
| something else.. the market would punish John Deere for their
| overstep. (I'm not a farmer and have zero contact with this
| industry, but it seems that the Indian company Mahindra has
| pretty competitive pricing from a quick browse of tractor
| dealerships.) You could also sue John Deere if they were
| delivering a vehicle that wasn't performing according to their
| specifications, and ultimately their reputation would suffer. (It
| took thirty years for American auto mfgs to rebuild their
| reputation after the garbage they made way back in the 70's.)
|
| The other thing where the market would help to fix this, without
| needing a legislative fix, is if a competitor steps up with an
| easy to repair tractor, like https://frame.work/ did for laptops.
| If this is a real problem, then some smart entrepreneur
| eventually will, even if they end up having their first tractors
| built in China. John Deere relies on the trust of farmers just as
| much as the other way around.
|
| Just some food for thought. This seems to be a nuanced and very
| emotional issue for some people, but it does seem like there are
| at least two sides to this story.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| Honestly, they can keep a lot closed but still create modular
| designs and repairers win without giving away the farm.
|
| If you don't want to pay John Deere for their fancy autonomous
| farming, that's fine. But you should be able to swap in a
| different control unit and not have to worry about your tractor
| simply refusing to run like a Keurig machine that refuses to
| run non-rfid tagged genuine k-cups.
|
| Voids your warranty, sure, but I think you should be able to
| make that decision for yourself.
| [deleted]
| syshum wrote:
| There is a double edge problem here.
|
| Farming like almost every other industry is has been under
| massive consolidation pressure for the last several decades,
| small and medium farms being bought out by large
| corporations.
|
| These large corporations have no problem with these changes
| at JD because they do not want to repair their tractors
| anyway, they outsource that to the dealers now.
|
| These changes however do drive up the costs for independent
| farmers which the Corporate farms love because then they can
| either drive them out of business or buy them cheap...
| [deleted]
| kmeisthax wrote:
| All they need to do is...
|
| - Allow people to buy genuine replacement parts at the same or
| similar pricing to what the OEM pays
|
| - Publish information on what parts go where on the device and
| how to install them
|
| - Don't make the device lock itself if it detects the user has
| replaced a device
|
| None of this in and of itself implicates John Deere's ability
| to ship a competitive product or prevent cloning. My
| understanding is that other manufacturers would already have
| the ability and know-how to take their competitors' products
| apart and figure out how they work. Not being able to buy
| replacement parts or not having circuit board schematics
| doesn't really help stop that, because they can just buy the
| whole package and do their own reverse-engineering work from
| there. If you have competitors that _can 't_ do that, then they
| probably couldn't build a clone even if these companies were
| extremely repair-friendly.
| all2 wrote:
| This smells like the printer cartridge problem that HP and
| others have, where, if you replace the cartridge with non-HP,
| the printer will lock up and cease to function...
| webmaven wrote:
| _> This smells like the printer cartridge problem that HP
| and others have, where, if you replace the cartridge with
| non-HP, the printer will lock up and cease to function..._
|
| That's pretty much exactly what is going on.
| wavefunction wrote:
| Couldn't a capable foreign rival just come to America, approach
| a local farmer and ask them for access to the tractor for long
| enough to derive whatever alleged trade secrets there are? Or
| even just buy one, either here or overseas and disassemble?
| [deleted]
| syshum wrote:
| >> John Deere would have to give or open up in terms of trade
| secrets in order to enable repairs
|
| None... "Security" and "Trade Secrets" are largely red herrings
| to muddy the conversation and provide convenient cover for
| their true objective, anti-repair, or protectionism for their
| dealer network.
|
| They can implement repairablity, api's and a whole host of
| other things to individual purchasers and independent repair
| with out sacrificing security or compromising trade secrets
| simion314 wrote:
| I think is easy to contradict your hypothesis, All the code and
| tools are not secret, local shops have them so you don't need
| some extremely clever spy to get their hands on them.
|
| I seen a similar argument about Apple repair manuals , there is
| even more stupid since Apple sends in China the full blueprints
| to build the iPhones so there is no fucking way that making the
| repair tools and manuals public gives China,Russia or N Koreea
| something they can't already get.
|
| DRM would only make sense if you rent the product so the owner
| would not want to let a random dude to change stuff, but if you
| are the owner then you should be able to read the error codes
| and have a competent person replace a part.
|
| TL:DR the repair tools and manuals do not contain trade
| secrets, the argument is flawed.
| xondono wrote:
| I have to say, I'm still very divided about right to repair.
|
| I think it's hard to keep a consistent world view where right to
| repair is a thing, and at the same time anything but open source
| is outright illegal.
| toss1 wrote:
| Why does a right to repair require open-source to be the only
| legal option?
|
| It seems that I could have a highly proprietary device and
| still be able to repair it. It would just require availability
| of 1) documentation 2) diagnostics, 3) parts at market prices,
| 4) parts not locked by DRM code.
|
| E.g., the iPhone could still have all their proprietary code,
| as long as I can read about the components and their
| relationships, diagnose a problem, replace a component and/or
| flash new data/code onto the device.
|
| Same for a car or tractor. Meaningful repair doesn't require
| that we be able to dismantle and re-solder sub-board-level
| components, only identify the particular component, obtain it
| at a reasonable availability and cost, and replace it, or be
| able to substitute an upgraded part.
|
| Am I missing something here?
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| You do realise that we had right to repair in the 80's?
| Domestic appliances, cars and tractors did not contain
| computers. There was no firmware. The whole issue comes from
| abuse of IT laws to destroy our individual right to personal
| property.
|
| There is no 'copyright' on mechanical parts, anyone is free to
| make a copy, and you are free to buy them from anyone.
|
| Even if a part is patented (which is a small percentage), the
| patent law spesifically allows anyone to build anything for
| personal use.
|
| If I have to repair my toaster, and it contains a
| microcontroller, then I can buy that microcontroller but not
| the firmware. The firmware belongs to the manufacturer, even if
| all it does is have a time to eject bread. So my toaster is
| unrepairable if that chip dies. That toaster could never be
| patented, beucase there is nothing innovative.
| ChrisLomont wrote:
| > You do realise that we had right to repair in the 80's?
|
| There was no such right in the 80s, any more than there is
| now.
|
| In both times you could repair what you or repair people
| obtained the skill to do. There was no inherent, moral right,
| and no legal right, then or now.
|
| Also in the 80's plenty of domestic appliances, cars, and
| tractors contained computers.
|
| https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/when-did-cars-get-
| comput...
|
| https://www.haytalk.com/threads/what-year-did-the-
| computers-...
| throwaway2048 wrote:
| Not in a legal sense, but in a practical one, companies had
| no effective way of locking you out of repairing your own
| machines, unlike today. No need for a round of pedantry.
| ChrisLomont wrote:
| >No need for a round of pedantry.
|
| Ah, well if we can divorce ourselves from facts, then
| yes, we can believe anything.
|
| What legal way am I locked out? There are exemptions in
| US (and other law) for copyright, patents have not
| changed, trademarks don't stop me.
|
| There are zero items in my house (and I have all sorts of
| tech) that I cannot take apart (and routinely do) and
| fiddle with and hack on and change and repair if I feel
| so inclined.
|
| Sure, the average person with low tech skills and low
| tech tools has a harder time, but the things being worked
| on are simply much more specialized and complex. I bet
| the average person has been unable to repair a fine watch
| for a century - that's needed a specialist, since it was
| high tech a century ago.
|
| Or do you mean repair has gotten more complex as
| technology has gotten more complex? That has been and
| always will be the case. Repairing an axe is always going
| to be easier than repairing an iPhone.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > What legal way am I locked out? There are exemptions in
| US (and other law) for copyright, patents have not
| changed
|
| Please point out to me which copyright exemption will
| enable me to get hold of firmware for a microcontroller
| in my washing machine if the current one gives up the
| ghost. I can buy an identical microcontroller, and solder
| it in place of the current one, but without firmware the
| device is dead. The same applies to all appliances, from
| toasters to cars, it has nothing to do with skill. This
| was not the case a few decades ago.
|
| Additionally, you clearly haven't been paying attention
| to recent events. John Deer literally shuts down your
| tractor, and even if you repair it, it won't start untill
| you pay their mechanic to come over and reset it. It is
| not a matter of skill - the machine is locked and only
| their mechanics have authorisation to rest it. The same
| is happening with phones, computers and domestic
| apliances.
|
| https://repair.eu/news/part-pairing-a-major-threat-to-
| indepe...
|
| Getting around some of these restrictions can land you in
| jail
|
| https://hackaday.com/2015/05/12/ask-hackaday-fixing-your-
| tra...
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Right to repair died with the US creation of the DMCA. It
| still exists on most of the world, but it's being
| constantly fought and killed all around.
| rdudek wrote:
| Wonder how difficult it would be for some opensource startup to
| come out and make a simple Generic Tractor at low cost, low
| maintenance? I grew up on a small farm and the tractor we had was
| very basic. Didn't have any of the latest tech which has pathing
| and seeding controls.
| [deleted]
| 7thaccount wrote:
| I'm not a farmer, but this comes up a lot. Most modern farming
| (the type done for money commercially and not as a hobby)is
| fiendishly complex. The tractors are massive and are driven by
| GPS and have all kinds of massive machines connected to them.
|
| If you want a simple and cheap tractor, you can find a Farmall
| from like 40 years ago and restore it easily for like a grand
| or two (at least my friends dad was still doing this in 2008).
|
| Typically whenever a once competitive firm becomes a lazy
| monopolist, at some point others want to break in and get a
| piece of the profit pie. It could happen someday.
| masklinn wrote:
| > Typically whenever a once competitive firm becomes a lazy
| monopolist, at some point others want to break in and get a
| piece of the profit pie. It could happen someday.
|
| The problem is, as in many other domains, a combination of
| opportunity cost and network effect.
|
| Getting in the commercial farming game is going to be
| expensive as hell and gruelling as you try to get a foothold,
| and unlike, say, a car, your average farmer has a ton of
| equipment from the same brand which works together, and the
| more time passes the harder it becomes to interop (though I
| guess at least in farming you don't have too many patented
| hitches or PTOs these days?)
|
| Not to mention in farming you really need to have a network
| on the ball for parts and repairs, if you fuck up a farmer's
| season by leaving them stranded for a week they're not going
| to be happy campers.
| matthias509 wrote:
| All the implements which farmers use, planters cultivators,
| etc have gotten larger over the years as the scale of farms
| have grown. A 40 year old tractor likely isn't going to have
| the horsepower to work with these new implements. Also, the
| old tractor is likely to lack a cab which could mean no
| climate control for you.
|
| Both of these would be serious issues for operating a modern,
| large scale farming operation.
| 7thaccount wrote:
| That's basically what I was saying above. If you need all
| that a modern tractor has to offer you don't have much of a
| choice. If you need to farm on a smaller scale, an older
| (and much easier to repair) and much cheaper model is
| always a possibility. Although the used market is insanely
| expensive now I would guess.
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Those older tractors can and do have enough power for
| modern farming. Source: I work in a shop in a farming
| community which usually has 10+ tractors lined up to get
| worked on, and the vast majority are 20-40 years old. They
| are much more repairable then modern tractors, so plenty of
| farmers actually _prefer_ them to the newer higher tech
| tractors.
|
| Oh, and most GPS steering systems don't come with the
| tractor, and some types of systems are retrofitted onto any
| tractor with a steering wheel.
| frankfrankfrank wrote:
| Although I am not doubting you, I find it rather curious that
| you would describe tractors and/or other farm equipment as
| "fiendishly complex". I am not sure if there is a term or
| concept for this issue, but I get a strong sense from this
| whole concept that what is really happening is the generation
| of artificial and intentional complexity, if not just the
| perception of complexity. There is nothing inherently complex
| about, e.g., a tractor that has some method of automatic
| steering, locates itself by GPS, and follows a path set by
| coordinates and vectors.
|
| Another aspect of what we are experiencing here I think is
| essentially a multi-level/nested con job that uses that
| artificial and perception of complexity to extract ever
| higher and compounding levels of what what are essentially
| rents.
|
| The established industry players are banking on the high
| barrier to entry (heavy machinery production) and brand
| recognition (Runs like a Deere) to con the whole sector, and
| therefore extract wealth from the whole of society trying to
| feed itself.
|
| Please feel free to challenge my perspective.
| 7thaccount wrote:
| Have you ever watched Clarkson's farm? It's a comedy show
| about Jeremy Clarkson from top gear trying to actually farm
| his land himself instead of paying someone to do it.
| Everything is fiendishly complex. Nothing looks simple at
| all. His tractor (granted it's a top end Lambo) has more
| controls than the Enterprise in JJ Abram's Star Trek. I
| don't think a small startup is taking that on anytime soon.
|
| He has to call out someone to show him how to drive it and
| has no idea how to get it hitched. All coming from a man
| who has driven more cars of different types than probably
| anyone on the planet. Granted, it is a comedy, buy I think
| if you watch the first episode, you'll get the idea as I
| did.
| webmaven wrote:
| _> Although I am not doubting you, I find it rather curious
| that you would describe tractors and /or other farm
| equipment as "fiendishly complex". I am not sure if there
| is a term or concept for this issue,_
|
| I've come across the term "confusopoly":
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confusopoly
| alistairSH wrote:
| Would you consider a modern car complex? A modern tractor
| is at least that complicated, more in some ways, maybe less
| in others.
|
| From a high level, this doesn't seem a whole lot different
| than the scan tools needed to diagnose new cars. Some of
| which are vendor-locked on cars, but at minimum, there are
| OBDII codes and scanners available to consumers. It's the
| more marque-specific scan tools that aren't as readily
| available (but even then, I believe indy service shops can
| buy/license them, but it's very expensive).
| abakker wrote:
| Look how hard it was for Tesla to build cars. the Capex
| businesses are notoriously unattractive for VCs.
|
| I suspect that it will take some other innovation to make
| this worthwhile to fund. Right to repair is not innovation,
| its just a single feature change, so nobody cares to solve
| it. It generates complaints, but probably doesn't hurt
| sales.
|
| At some point, maybe electrification will be that
| innovation. Or maybe form factor? but, JD is not ignoring
| product development, they just have expensive spare parts.
|
| A data point I never see is what JD reliability is like.
| Toyota has expensive spare parts compared to several of
| their competitors, but they are also very reliable. If JD's
| DRMs and expensive parts are concomitant with reliable
| tractors, then maybe this issue is really just interesting
| to techno libertarians and not actual farmers? I don't have
| any sense for the size of the JD repair market.
| themadturk wrote:
| I'm not sure about Deere reliability, but I've seen
| anecdotal evidence in the past about farmers being out of
| operation because they can't fix their farm equipment
| themselves.
| fartcannon wrote:
| I think you hit the nail on the head. Much like modern web
| design, pointless complexity slows down competitors with
| distractions.
| syshum wrote:
| https://www.opensourceecology.org/portfolio/tractor/
| jonnydubowsky wrote:
| Thanks for sharing this. I remember checking it out a few
| years ago when Open Source Ecology first started doing their
| workshops. They've come a long way. I love how their system
| is designed to build modules to build machines to build more
| modules.
| [deleted]
| biorach wrote:
| There are plenty simple low-cost tractors on the market.
|
| However for large-scale agriculture where your tractor is
| pulling high-end machinery you need something very powerful and
| sophisticated. JD leads this market, and is a significant
| player in the mid-range also.
| thereddaikon wrote:
| John Deere is a symptom of a wider problem in regards to right to
| repair. Legally speaking there is a lot of progress that needs to
| be made in the realm of consumer electronics. But for vehicles be
| they road cars or tractors it can all be fixed with one good
| federal court case. What John Deere, and Tesla and most
| automakers are trying to do is basically circumvent the Sherman
| Act through an abuse of copyright law. SCOTUS has been pretty
| crappy on tying lately and has raised the bar, the opposite of
| what should be happening. But it seems right to repair is gaining
| a lot of broad political support so hopefully that will soon be
| undone.
| dawsmik wrote:
| Then Congress should step in. This seems like something that
| would get bipartisan support.
| thereddaikon wrote:
| A new law could work but I feel like this should be able to
| be solved on the judicial side because its already illegal.
| We just have another case of the law not being enforced.
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