[HN Gopher] When did Maytag go bad? (2007)
___________________________________________________________________
When did Maytag go bad? (2007)
Author : gscott
Score : 73 points
Date : 2022-01-16 09:38 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.automaticwasher.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.automaticwasher.org)
| Lio wrote:
| I'd never heard of Maytag before and had to look them up[1].
|
| For anyone as naive as me, Maytag is an American home appliance
| brand. That's "white goods" like washing machines, fridges, etc.
|
| I suspect it's just me, as they seem to have sold
| internationally.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maytag
| emptyparadise wrote:
| Classic ruined Americana.
| SeanLuke wrote:
| Maytag was US-only as far as I knew. It had a reputation for
| extreme long life and reliability, much like the reputation
| Volvo used to have for cars. And, like Volvo, this reputation
| was then squandered.
|
| Back in the 1980s Maytag used to run commercials on television
| featuring the "Maytag Repairman", who never had anything to do
| because no one ever called. Americans still remember these
| commercials fondly.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Maytag was/is sold in Canada.
| SeanLuke wrote:
| Sure, but Canada is just the US with a health plan. :-)
| Canada! The Maple Leaf State!
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Canada is a southern suburb of Detroit.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| Geography is fun. Besides the fact you can go south from
| Detroit to arrive at Canada, there's also [at least one]
| part of the US that you cannot drive to without driving
| through Canada first:
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/place/Point+Roberts,+WA+98281
| /
| webmaven wrote:
| _> Back in the 1980s Maytag used to run commercials on
| television featuring the "Maytag Repairman", who never had
| anything to do because no one ever called._
|
| The Gordon Jump era (which are the commercials most often
| recalled today) actually lasted until 2003:
|
| https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-
| business/industry-...
| zerkten wrote:
| Maytag was sold in the UK too although distribution was
| limited. UK urban and suburban homes, especially, have more
| space constraints than the US. The market was limited to
| commercial and larger homes (built by owners, mansions, etc.)
|
| We got a Maytag top-loading washer around 1996 and it was
| still running fine in 2020 when my mother moved out of our
| family home. I wonder how far away from UK and EU energy and
| water use requirements it was.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| Neither MayTag or SpeedQueen seem available here in Denmark -
| at least if I check it on pricerunner.dk, I knew both brands
| but that was because of having grown up in the U.S.
| rootsudo wrote:
| It's probably just you - but it's curious how many brands that
| are known to millions and export can still be unknown to
| people.
|
| Next you'll say you think Whirlpools just exist in oceans. :D
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| Not quite. I had never heard of Maytag until I moved to the
| US. It isn't a widely known brand in mainland Europe.
|
| Whirlpool is, though it seems that it has been displaced a
| bit from the market by LG and Samsung.
| OakNinja wrote:
| I've never heard of Maytag before either. I guess they are
| not on the European market?
| zerkten wrote:
| They were available per
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maytag#Maytag_International.
| The problem is that they didn't fit with typical
| requirements in a European home with their cost and space
| requirements. This relegated them to commercial usage or
| custom homes with dedicated space for a washer and drier.
| open-source-ux wrote:
| Maytag is not a well known brand in the UK. This may be
| because top-loading washing machines are not widespread here.
| Front-loading washing machines are the norm in the UK and in
| other European countries. It's unusual to see top-loading
| washing machines for sale.
| ectopod wrote:
| Maytag is common in UK launderettes but I've never seen a
| domestic one.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| > The people I really feel sorry for are the good people of
| Newton, Iowa, who now have to transform their town from a
| "company town" into something else if they're to survive
| economically
|
| My wife is from Newton. It's a strange place since Maytag left.
| It was clearly a pretty nice place to live 20 years ago, but now
| there are a lot of foreclosed homes and a pretty visible meth
| problem. Still, they are working hard to rebuild their local
| economy. Prior to the pandemic, I thought that Des Moines might
| grow enough that Newton might be a desirable exurb, but with more
| people working from home, who knows what will happen.
| mateo411 wrote:
| I think exurbs will become more desirable now that more people
| are working from home.
| Jotra7 wrote:
| aemreunal wrote:
| On a meta point: Sites like these make me appreciate the internet
| so much. There's a forum for people who are "experts, collecters
| and fans of [...] washing machines" (among other things). Never
| would've thought such a website existed in a million years.
| dewey wrote:
| Especially these days when the only sites you find if you
| google a product like this are seo spam comparison sites with
| affiliate links and some text written by either a machine or
| someone stuffing as many keywords in the most general article
| as possible.
| aezell wrote:
| Really, any forum that focuses on a specific niche. They could
| be some of the best places in the Internet. Facebook ate up
| most of those amazing communities.
| bityard wrote:
| All we need now are search engines that are smart enough to
| find this information.
| a9h74j wrote:
| Also, for years I have had the phrase "open source washing
| machine" in my head. Finally duck-searched upon seeing this
| thread. A ton of existing work/proposals.
| ilamont wrote:
| This board probably has members of a club made up people (mostly
| middle aged men in the U.S., with some members in Canada and
| Australia) who collect washing machines.
|
| I've seen video of a collector's basement which is wall to wall
| washing machines and dryers, many of them still operational. It's
| this clip from CBS News some years back:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmmmxI-Y_6U
|
| https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/75356/men-who-stare-laun...
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| While most of this conversation is about washers / dryers, I have
| a Maytag dishwasher that's less than 5 years old that we are
| strongly considering replacing. It simply doesn't wash dishes. It
| splashes a lot of water around, but there's something strange
| going on where it throws food bits all over our dishes. This is
| even after we've basically hand-washed the dishes we're putting
| in it, so we can't even figure out where all these bits are
| coming from! We had a repairman out and for a couple weeks it was
| better, but now back to same issues.
|
| Considering a Bosch, would love to get this group's thoughts on
| manufacturers and models.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| We probably have the same Maytag dishwasher. It's also only 5
| or 6 years old and I'm about ready to replace it - in addition
| to not being good at cleaning dishes it also has areas inside
| of it that are just completely gross with old food, etc. We had
| a dishwasher in our previous house that was installed when the
| house was built in 1974 and we had that dishwasher until 2011,
| a Whirlpool. Yeah, it probably used a lot more water than
| current models, but it got the dishes clean and lasted 37 years
| while managing to keep itself clean inside.
| Aloha wrote:
| Have you cleaned the internal skimmer/trap, do you use a pre
| wash setting with hot water?
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| Per the repairman's suggestions:
|
| -- we run the hot water before starting the cycle
|
| -- we add a detergent booster
|
| -- we run regular empty loads with a cleaning product
|
| Separately, we've removed and cleaned any parts that can be
| removed and cleaned, but with the same results.
| dsr_ wrote:
| Replace the spin arms. Once some food or plastic scrap
| wedges inside, they're really difficult to clean.
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| I hear you on that - I was working on cleaning them last
| night and while I could get the water to run clean, it
| was clear there were some bits stuck in them.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| Stuff like this is why I find fears about robots taking
| over any time in the next few decades just hilarious. I
| don't know of many machines not made by Honda that can
| work reliably for a decade or more with zero maintenance.
| troebr wrote:
| I have an Amana washer that was doing a terrible job, I
| cleaned every removable part, etc. Same thing it was
| splattering food everywhere. Then we remodeled the kitchen,
| and put the exact same dishwasher back in 2 months later
| (it's hooked up to a new garbage disposal). For some reason
| it works just fine now, we can't explain it. Maybe exhaust
| pipe was clogged? Maybe it wasn't level? Maybe something
| wasn't connected right? I guess I'm suggesting removing it
| entirely and looking for problems?
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| What's interesting is that the previous dishwasher worked
| fine, but all the plastic parts inside had become brittle
| and were breaking, and at the same time some things
| transpired such that a family member offered us this new-
| in-box dishwasher. IE: point being that the previous
| dishwasher didn't have this food splattering problem.
|
| When the repair guy came out, he commented that the
| garbage disposal hadn't been properly installed (10+
| years ago) and that it might be part of the problem. In
| theory he fixed that issue, and we assumed that might
| also have been the problem. But, with it back to spewing
| food bits everywhere it seems unlikely that was the
| problem. The level issue you point out is perhaps worth
| experimenting a bit.
| anonAndOn wrote:
| The bits of food makes me think it's the garbage
| disposal. Is there an obstruction in the hose to the
| garbage disposal and/or some obstruction in the garbage
| disposal itself? Got any kids? Maybe you'll find a
| missing Lego piece!
| matheweis wrote:
| Bosch has the highest rating from consumer reports and high
| reviews across the board. They're pretty good, but even a brand
| new Bosch sometimes can't keep up the load of a family with
| four kiddos...
|
| I think a bug part of the problem is that phosphates were
| banned from residential detergents circa 2010, and appliance
| manufacturers have struggled to find alternatives that work as
| well since.
| bittercynic wrote:
| I've had a Miele for a few years. It works pretty well and
| doesn't make too much noise.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| Had a Samsung fridge of ~2016 vintage for about 4 years until it
| failed. Basically, the defrost cycle relies on a tiny aluminum
| "finger" that dips into the ~1/2" hole at the back of the fridge
| where the cooling coils are. The idea is that it stays warm
| enough to not freeze. It wasn't good enough to actually do that.
|
| The result was that the coils would constantly ice up and form
| into a solid block of ice. As this part was behind a lot of
| styrofoam and plastic that was GLUED INTO PLACE, in addition to
| having some of the most annoying mechanical design I've ever had
| the displeasure of disassembling for the shelves and drawers to
| even get to that part, disassembling it breaks it. The first sign
| of the ice is the fan making a grinding sound, as it's literally
| grinding on the ice block.
|
| I eventually rigged it up in a way that didn't allow condensation
| to form enough to even ice up in the first place, by removing the
| entire inside back panel, plastic, styrofoam, and all, and
| putting 4x 120mm computer fans with a cheap external fan
| controller and a 12v wall wart plug to power it. My wife hated
| it, but it did work. We replaced it with a nice GE Profile that
| has been great.
|
| Ooh, also: the ice maker would also ice over and constantly
| require manual defrosting, which the manual explicitly warns
| against -- their solution: remove everything from the fridge for
| 48-72 hours and leave it open for the ice to melt by itself. What
| a great idea if you have a second fridge and freezer to store
| everything while that works.
|
| The parts were also very complex, hard to fit together, and very
| difficult to clean. It was mechanically over-engineered, but had
| awful reliability, repairability, and ease of maintenance --
| spill something on the lower shelf? Prepare for 30 minutes of
| disassembling sticky plastic panels and yanking things just to
| clean up the spill that seeped under the poorly-designed panels
| that are inaccessible otherwise. Make sure to remember where all
| 8 different lengths of screws go.
|
| There are class-action lawsuits about these fridges:
| https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-pro...
|
| Their dishwasher that we unfortunately own isn't much better: the
| soap dispenser is blocked by anything remotely large in the lower
| front-left tray, causing the soap to not come out (as the door
| swings open and is easily blocked by anything in front of it).
| The drain / valve part (a large one-piece molded plastic part
| that costs $150 ish) is on the side and attached with an eighth-
| turn plastic screw comes off at the slightest touch and causes a
| leak down the side which triggers the leak sensor, requiring
| pulling the entire thing out, drying off the bottom, and re-
| attaching that piece on the side. There was a part, I think it
| was a small plastic wheel to detect water flow, inside of that
| one-piece molded plastic plumbing / tank / whatever mixer on the
| side, that had a couple pieces of rust in it from our crappy 100
| year old city water main. Because that part is entirely encased
| in heat-welded thick plastic, it's impossible to remove to clean.
| Now that one is in a landfill and the new one was quite
| expensive. The error code is also non-specific, despite having a
| few dozen wires leading to all the different sensors that can and
| will eventually fail, so I first replaced the main water inlet
| sensor, which didn't fix the problem. Lastly, the touch controls
| are on the top front of the unit, which means it must be opened
| slightly to control them, and of course they're capacitive touch
| buttons with no raised edges, so you must look at them to touch
| the right one, and they don't work with wet hands, which is just
| a fantastic idea for a dishwasher.
|
| I think Samsung has some of the worst industrial designers in the
| industry, along with some of the worst product and software
| people (read up on the Bixby button on their phones some time).
| Their appliances and most of their other products are pure
| garbage destined for landfills, and I will never buy another as
| long as I live if I have any say in it. I have spent countless
| hours diagnosing and attempting to repair their hot garbage
| products, and I truly hope they go out of business very soon for
| making such horrible products that make the world a worse place
| in so many ways. They make shiny crap that looks good on a shelf
| or in Best Buy, then you get it home and maybe it works OK for a
| few months. I have no idea why they have fans out there.
|
| Edit: The only Samsung stuff I own by choice is their B-die RAM
| and SSDs. Guessing that's an entirely different division.
| dogline wrote:
| Ooh. I didn't know about the lawsuit. I've got one of the
| models listed. I gave up on trying to thaw/fix the ice maker a
| while back, and now just buy some ice. I figured Samsung was a
| good brand, but those models of fridge just suck.
| Maxburn wrote:
| I have a Maytag washer dryer set from 1982. I've done some
| repairs and looked things over internally and they are extremely
| well built. I'll keep these as long as possible.
| supernova87a wrote:
| The advertising icon of the Maytag lonely repairman (because
| Maytag is so reliable, nothing to repair:
| https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/1107/18/porcela...)
| was great, but is long gone now.
|
| And a general statement:
|
| If anything, many of our products have become more expensive to
| repair than throw away and buy new. Partly the rising cost of
| labor and time it takes to disassemble something, figure out
| what's wrong (takes some skilled labor), and put it all back
| together again, and partly because improvements in manufacturing
| have made it cheaper just to produce from scratch.
|
| Our throwaway society at work.
| larrywright wrote:
| In talking with appliance repairmen (who are, unfortunately,
| frequent visitors to our home), your statement is spot on. Some
| brands are better than others (when it comes to dishwashers,
| they universally praise Bosch), but none of them are built to
| last. I'm replacing a Samsung dishwasher tomorrow that is not
| even 4 years old. The main board has failed, and the part isn't
| even available any more.
|
| It's a shame to see so much waste.
| layer8 wrote:
| I wouldn't even mind as much if the replacements at least would
| have the same (or better) usability and quality (in terms of
| everyday performance, not necessarily longevity), but more
| often than not they are a downgrade.
| louismerlin wrote:
| Working image url :
| https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/Maytag_repair...
| cjrp wrote:
| The mechanics of something like a washing machine are still
| relatively simple (motor, belt, drum, pump), but when the PCB
| goes it seems to be game over as often the part costs nearly as
| much as a new machine.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Yeah that's game over. I repaired our washing machine when
| the rear cross piece broke after seven years: took it apart,
| found the fault (hard to miss of course; when these parts
| fail, they literally tear apart), ordered the spare part,
| bought some suitable stainless bolts, and repaired it.
|
| At the ten year mark, the electronics just died. As that
| consists of one solid resin encased block of electronics (not
| a part available as spare), repairing it would only make
| sense if I had:
|
| * Space to put it aside for a while and work out how to
| replace electronics
|
| * Electrical engineering skills beyond what I have
|
| * A replacement washing machine in the interim (we just had a
| baby at that point)
|
| * Willingness to invest days in this project
|
| I think I fall within the 5% (3%? 1%?) of people who can
| manage the first repair, but the latter is a one in ten
| thousand (optimistic estimate) kind of issue. Economically,
| it makes no sense to repair it, which is really unfortunate.
|
| It might have been possible to take the electronics from a
| broken machine of the same type, but these cannot
| realistically be found here.
| bogomipz wrote:
| So is that basically the economics of modern washer/dryer
| purchasing then - spend just enough to get 10 years out of
| it? I feel like modern "smart" stoves are similar - once
| the logic board goes that it. Seems like also a 10 year
| lifespan.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| If it has moving parts and/or gets very hot and cools
| over and over again, I assume it will break within 5
| years.
|
| I buy my appliances from Costco with a Costco credit card
| because that means the appliance has a 4 year warranty.
| The price premium to buy equivalent commercial quality
| appliances with 5 year warranties is high enough that I
| would rather just get a new appliance and restart the 4
| year clock.
| cjrp wrote:
| Well done on the first repair at least! That's a good point
| about needing time/a replacement in the interim. I suppose
| there are some things which can sit on a bench for a while
| waiting for time/parts, but appliances tend to be pretty
| important. You could wait 5 days for a part which _might_
| fix the problem, or have a new machine installed tomorrow.
| onphonenow wrote:
| It's not just this. Door sensors, dispensers, filter covers
| part counts are high
| pygy_ wrote:
| Wouldn't there be a market for 3rd party PCB and control
| panel kits for used machines?
| jasonjayr wrote:
| RPi + an 8-10 channel relay board + some custom firmware?
| larrywright wrote:
| I just had visions of explaining to my spouse that I need
| to debug the software on the washing machine... I don't
| think that would fly.
| moonchrome wrote:
| Low volume market, having to sit on inventory for a long
| time and high upfront cost ? Sounds like a recipe for
| cheaper to buy new than repairing.
| spookthesunset wrote:
| I mean eBay is full of sellers that deal in salvaged
| stuff. There are even sellers who offer rechargeable lipo
| batteries salvaged out of single use "disposable" vape
| pens.
|
| If there is a market for something, no matter how small,
| somebody on eBay is catering to it.
| wombatpm wrote:
| You would think with proper diagrams you could replace
| the electronics with a raspberry pi
| egypturnash wrote:
| And either be looking for a new side project, or hope
| that someone out there felt like putting their time into
| writing open source washer firmware.
| lstodd wrote:
| I'd guess it's power FETs that fail. You'd have to design
| a shield of sorts, manufacture it, and still bury it in a
| compound with the pi, since high-temp high-humidity
| environment will kill them in weeks. Of course, being
| buried in a brick of epoxy, both switching and the pi
| would have all sorts of cooling problems.
|
| It can be done, but it's not that simple.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Interestingly enough, as soon as the price of replacing
| it goes up (because you have less to spend), and an
| abundance of second hand devices entering your country,
| this model of repair suddenly becomes feasible. In some
| African countries you can get your TV fixed if a certain
| part fails, because the local repairman takes all working
| boards from broken TV sets and keeps an inventory. It's a
| business model that is unsustainable in more 'developed'
| countries. Here repairs are only done on really high-end
| devices.
|
| Beside that, there is the convenience factor. I can buy a
| new washing machine, and have it here tomorrow, where
| they take the old one away, and plug the new one in if I
| want to buy that option.
|
| You can't get that level service from a repairman. They
| can't compete with this business model. And even if they
| could, the chance of them being able to fix it is not
| 100%, whereas the new one is all but guaranteed to work
| (for as long as that lasts).
| FireBeyond wrote:
| Yeah, I've received quotes for replacing the control
| board on a Whirlpool double oven that basically equalled
| getting a new (10 years newer) oven.
|
| That's just for the part. I was willing and able to do
| the labor - would have been a fifteen minute job.
| jtbayly wrote:
| It's not unsustainable in Ohio. I bought my washer from a
| guy with a basement full of washers who was obviously
| repairing with parts from other machines.
|
| Then we posted our broken washer for free and somebody
| came and took it. It was obviously going to be repaired
| and resold or used for parts.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| >"with a basement full of washers who was obviously
| repairing with parts from other machines."
|
| I really hope he has some sort of lift or elevator
| installed. His back is going to be destroyed in a few
| short years.
| asimpletune wrote:
| What's so insane to me is that washers and dryers (also
| dishwashers) are all very simple devices. I would love for
| someone to just come out with "dumb" versions of these, that
| attack the design weaknesses of what is currently offered.
| Something that is designed to last, but also to be easily
| diagnosed and owner serviced.
|
| Even better if they were designed to be built into existing
| cabinetry, so you can move with them and retrofit them into
| whatever home you go into.
| convolvatron wrote:
| its marketing and expectations.
|
| I soak my clothes soak with soap in a 5gal bucket, rinse in the
| same bucket by pouring the water out in the tub, and spin them
| nearly dry in a motor+drum and hand and dry over the tub. I can
| easily throw in a little soda or peroxide, and I rinse it until
| the water is clear.
|
| its sounds terribly manual and regressive but really its very
| little work, just filling up a bucket and dumping it out. the
| clothes come out cleaner (no extra soap and lint), and it
| doesn't really take any more time. the only hardware, the
| spinner, is cheap and fantastically straightforward.
|
| I think people have been deceived over generations to consider
| what goes on inside a washing machine as some kind of arduous
| and complicated magic.
| bityard wrote:
| If I was only doing my own laundry, I would only have to wash
| a load once a week, and I would never use the dryer since I'm
| content to air-dry all of my clothes.
|
| However, a family of four tilts the balance in favor of the
| time-saving machines.
|
| (That said, we /do/ make our own laundry detergent for
| pennies a gallon and it has saved us a ton of money over the
| years.)
| truetraveller wrote:
| What is the recipe for the detergent, if you don't mind?
| twblalock wrote:
| They are not simple devices. Maybe they were simple 30 or 40
| years ago. Today, not so much.
|
| Some of the complexity is caused by customer preferences, and
| some of it is caused by government regulations.
|
| A modern washing machine or dishwasher or refrigerator has a
| computer in it.
|
| The market has rewarded those kinds of products. That happened
| because consumers wanted it to happen. As in many other
| industries, especially the car industry, there is an increasing
| divide between what the general consumers want and what the
| enthusiasts and tinkerers want.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| What is the _requisite_ complexity of these appliances?
|
| What advantages do electronics provide?
|
| To whom?
| magila wrote:
| From a regulatory standpoint it's mostly about water usage.
| Water efficiency standards have gotten stringent enough
| that electromechanical washers are effectively illegal.
| mml wrote:
| My Bosch dryer breaks its cheap nylon door latch every 2 years.
| the replacement costs $25, and could be 3d printed, or punched
| out of metal in about 10 minutes. once the electronics break, I'm
| just burning down the house and moving to the woods.
| bogomipz wrote:
| I was under the impression(perhaps very wrongfully) that Bosch
| was supposed to be quality engineering. Was this never true or
| is it just not true for certain product segments? The last part
| of your comment made me laugh out loud.
| tcbawo wrote:
| I once had a Bosch dishwasher in a condo that I purchased in
| the mid 2000s. The control board had a tendency to go bad
| every few years and flood the kitchen. I had read this was
| because the board was originally designed for European
| voltages and certain connections couldn't handle NA current
| over time. The first time it happened coincided with the
| birth of my first child. Getting back from the hospital with
| warped flooring was not a pleasant discovery. Bosch seems
| like a bit of luxury brand, although I've had some Bosch
| power tools that have worked out great.
| bityard wrote:
| ...and wash your clothes in a creek?
| Maursault wrote:
| Most creeks are top loading. Waterfalls are superior.
| nashashmi wrote:
| They sell hand washers. Delightfully simple machines.
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| I have an early 2000s (got it for free in 2004) Maytag top loader
| of the more-or-less classic design. It has had exactly one issue
| in all this time: A piece of debris got into the water pump, and
| I had to take that apart to get it out. Aside from that nothing,
| and in the past decade it has been a busy family washing machine.
| It'll probably die from the mechanical dial sequencer wearing
| out, if anything.
|
| The reason the Maytags were so reliable is their mechanical
| simplicity. Motor runs one way, the machine agitates and washes.
| Run the other way, the machine drains. The gearbox is simple, so
| simple that "spin" and "drain" are the same thing. How do you
| spin a tub full of water? You have a special kind of belt, that
| acts as a slip clutch so the spin builds up gradually as the
| water drains away.
|
| Because of the simple mechanics, the tub is deep; the machine has
| truly gigantic capacity. We fear the day it finally dies and we
| have to replace it with something else, the only choices being:
| Really crappy top loading agitator machines, the bizarre
| "agitator-less" top loaders, and front loaders.
|
| I used to use a Whirlpool built Kenmore machine before that. It
| had unbelievably complicated mechanics and plumbing (ever hear of
| a "wig wag"?) But it did have a reverse flush lint filter. That
| complicated stuff also eventually went wrong. Because if its
| simple mechanicals, the Maytag does not do any kind of lint
| filtering. Given that we also line dry, that is an issue. The
| machine is plainly for a world in which everything goes through a
| clothes dryer, which strips the lint.
| icecap12 wrote:
| Are you me? I bought mine in about 2006 or so, and in early
| December 2021, I had to take it apart to remove a child's sock
| that had been sucked into the pump. Youtube and a couple hours
| on a Saturday afternoon got it done, my wife was impressed. She
| didn't think even her mechanically inclined dad would have
| bothered to try that job. Honestly, the toughest part of it all
| was getting the main metal sheath/body back on properly. Took
| me 3 attempts because I was working by myself and the darn
| thing is so flimsy. It's been running like a tank and I've been
| impressed with the quality.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| You missed the decline. Some new energy rules went into effect
| in 2006/7, and to meet them, Maytag basically undersized motors
| and such.
|
| My in-laws bought a washer dryer set in 2004, which they still
| have. We bought ours with the house in 2006 and they failed in
| 3-4 years.
| cebert wrote:
| If you're looking for that reliability and simplicity, you may
| want to take a look at SpeedQueen. They're a bit more
| expensive, but built like tanks.
| zucked wrote:
| I did - I bought a Speed Queen set. To be fair, mine was a
| set of used units, but after reading thousands of these
| anecdotes across the internet, I knew that they were easily
| rated for 10k+ loads.
|
| The part that was true - they're built like tanks. The part I
| didn't expect - they're super rudimentary machines. They're
| loud and not particularly efficient.
|
| I had mine for just over a year before my wife voluntold me
| to find something else.
| jtbayly wrote:
| We bought a 20 year old Speed Queen last year for $100.
| Running great.
| User23 wrote:
| The Speed Queen TC5 is a splendid washer. Sadly they still
| felt the need to junk it up with ASICs for some reason, but
| it works extremely well. One warning, the "standard" clean or
| "EPA setting" is the one they included to pass regulatory
| requirements and doesn't clean like older washers do.
| Fortunately there are several other settings to achieve
| traditional performance.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Fortunately there are several other settings to achieve
| traditional performance.
|
| What are they? I'm thinking of getting one eventually?
|
| Though, being a white collar worker, my clothes probably
| don't actually get dirty enough to really need more heavy
| duty settings.
| op00to wrote:
| There's an independent appliance store near my house that
| sells speed queen. I always drool over those!
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| Are the front load Speed Queens also best in class? I can
| see a front loader in our future; they do use less water.
| The old-school Maytag, especially with the wife's
| insistence on an extra rinse, uses a lot.
| ouid wrote:
| The point of making a brand with a reputation of shit that lasts
| can never be repeat business. I love my stand mixer, and in 300
| years, when I need a new one, the company it was bought from
| won't exist anymore. Hell, it barely exists today.
|
| So the value of this reputation can only be to sell inferior
| cheaply made products with it.
| mml wrote:
| Some people may not be aware that the Maytag family makes
| _excellent_ cheese, or did, not sure if they own it anymore.
|
| https://maytagdairyfarms.com
| Taniwha wrote:
| Maytag used to have an advert running with a bored repairman
| complaining that they never failed .... either they were tempting
| fate, or they fired that repairman
| pram wrote:
| I had a Maytag front loader washing machine from 2013 and it
| lasted until last year with zero issues, no mold or anything.
| Maybe being bought by Whirlpool was a good thing then?
| mikestew wrote:
| Only eight years? Even our crappy LG front loader is still
| going after that long (rusty thought it might be). Apparently
| Maytag's quality _has_ going downhill.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| My Kenmores from 1990 are still going strong. 2013 is still
| infancy.
| Tagbert wrote:
| We just ordered a Maytag dryer to replace our Kenmore from
| 1995. Hoping the matching Kenmore washer keeps working.
|
| Sad to hear the Maytag is not as reliable now, but it still
| sounds better than some of the other brands. We chose a model
| without the electronic controls.
| cjrp wrote:
| 8 years doesn't seem very long for an appliance, although that
| is probably par for the course now.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Eleven years seems to be the (depressing) average for washing
| machines now.
| [deleted]
| otterley wrote:
| (2007)
| mattacular wrote:
| Weird how this keeps happening to products we've known how to
| make well for decades but it turns out it is more "profitable"
| not to do that.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| If all the brands are bad, you will have no choice but to
| accept their awfulness. This is known as the "car dealership",
| "ISP", or "wireless ISP" model.
| [deleted]
| yeetaccount4 wrote:
| There's profit incentive, but also regulation to make them more
| efficient. Say they have an undersized motor now, you may have
| to wash your clothes a few times or do more small loads. This
| puts more hours on the poor motor and it burns out sooner,
| causing more waste.
|
| Kind of like those toilets that use 30% less water per flush,
| but you have to flush them twice to get anything to go down.
|
| This isn't to say all regulation is bad, but poorly thought out
| regulation is the worst.
| f0e4c2f7 wrote:
| I think this is actually a natural market cycle you see across
| all industries.
|
| New entrant offers incredible product or service, customers
| rejoice.
|
| Competing products, pale. De facto monopoly is established.
|
| Time passed, maybe a new board and CEO, maybe not.
|
| The now monopoly starts exploiting their dominant position by
| charging more for worse quality. For some time the monopoly
| will act as a moat for this behavior.
|
| Customers no longer like the incumbent and a gap is opened that
| other companies and startups can attempt to shoot through.
|
| Once one succeeds the cycle starts over.
|
| Since someone pointed out this pattern to me I've tried to
| notice companies that don't follow it. It seems pretty common.
| Overall though, products and services in the market are still
| often good. You just have to be careful to buy them from the
| company that is still rising rather than the declining
| monopoly.
| mattacular wrote:
| It's actually not natural though.
| prepend wrote:
| First I buy a brand with a good reputation. Then I fire all the
| designers and keep a bare bones staff, including marketing and
| social media/PR. Then I coast on slowing degrading quality
| through shrinkage and part swapping. This can last years or
| decades while I take in the profit from not having staff.
|
| I worked for an enterprise software company that got bought by
| private equity and did this. 15 years later the company is
| still running and has been profitable for a long time.
| prometheus76 wrote:
| Sounds like Apple post-Steve Jobs and post-Jonathan Ive.
| seanp2k2 wrote:
| The M1 MBPs are the best products Apple have released in a
| long time. They could have replaceable anything and be
| better, but they're very very good for being pro-level
| disposable laptops.
| simonblack wrote:
| That I couldn't tell you. But I do know that I have been hearing
| about Maytag problems for at least twenty years.
|
| Before the awareness sets in that a brand has declined markedly,
| we tend to find that we become aware of complaints more often
| than before. Then later the penny drops.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| "How did you go bankrupt?" Bill asked.
|
| "Two ways," Mike said. "Gradually, then suddenly."
| busterarm wrote:
| I had a Maytag washer & dryer from 1955 that was still working up
| until 2009. The belts broke and I literally could not get
| replacements.
|
| That would have been the only repair needed. That said, I sold
| both units to a prop company for a nice sum.
|
| Modern machines are shit.
| sillyquiet wrote:
| I think Maytag is another example of what I think of as the
| attitude of profit margin >>> artisanry in modern companies. It
| goes something like this:
|
| Company A makes a thing, maybe it was founded by the inventor of
| the thing, maybe not, but it makes a thing and it is PROUD to
| make the thing. The thing is reliable, durable, and it does what
| it is advertised to do, well. It's crafted with care, with QA and
| built with quality parts.
|
| And THEN the beancounters come in. Oh-ho, they say, you can
| increase your profit margin on every unit sold if you replace
| this FooPart with a cheaply made mass produced overseas
| equivalent.
|
| Also, we will reduce the number of expensive quality inspectors
| to save costs.
|
| Actually, we are outsourcing ALL labor to overseas to save costs,
|
| and etc etc, the cost of the unit probably doesn't decrease, but
| the profit margins sure look nice until the point confidence in
| the product collapses and sales tank.
| bolasanibk wrote:
| You forgot the make it smart/app based/subscription model!!
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| At that point we would all be better off if the washing machine
| design was just open source, since then there would be actual
| competition among clones, and companies hungry for profit
| willing to build a brand with some reputation for quality who
| will do actual Q/A, and when they break parts are available
| from multiple vendors, and the industry will converge on
| standard designs for certain major parts.
|
| It's actually intellectual property restrictions that make
| possible the kind of scam business model you described. And I
| think without them we would see the cost of living go down as
| major goods got cloned and extra costs were shaken out of the
| designs. 3D printers got 100x cheaper in ten years after the
| patents expired, and I think this principle can generalize.
| cortesoft wrote:
| By the time the sales tank, the CEO is long gone with the
| bonuses they got for increased profit.
| llampx wrote:
| After our hand-me-down Bosch machine from the 1980s gave up the
| ghost, we decided to get another Bosch, but not because of brand
| loyalty. I think the mid-level machines are the best compromise
| between high cost brands like Miele and Maytag, and low-cost
| brands like Gorenje and Beko.
|
| However, as with many things, there has been a lot of
| consolidation in the space, and many brands are actually owned by
| holding companies, leading to some unlikely bedfellows. At the
| same time, planned obsolescence means that the machines are
| engineered to fail at some point between 2 and 5 years. Long
| enough to get out of warranty, and long enough that the consumer
| doesn't feel cheated when the machine fails the day after
| warranty expires, but not as long as you would expect from
| technology that has remained unchanged since the 50s except the
| addition of some sensors and PCBs.
|
| White goods are unique in terms of our expectations for their
| lifetime, because they are labor-intensive and/or expensive to
| replace, and a catastrophic failure with a water leak can be very
| expensive.
|
| I still find it somewhat funny though, that we easily give out
| between $200-1500 for our phones every couple of years and hem
| and haw when spending that much for white goods.
| jmrm wrote:
| "I think the mid-level machines are the best compromise...":
| This is totally true.
|
| I repair our family appliances and low-level and mid-level ones
| are pretty easy to work on. High-level ones like Miele products
| and some Samsung products now usually have diagnostic ports,
| like OBD-II in cars, and some sensors can't be replaced without
| reprogramming the main board with a valid diagnostic tool.
|
| The only two appliances I had problems with in the last five
| years were the two European front loading washing machines, a
| old low-level one who need a 20EUR (from the scrapyard) main
| board every 2-3 years, the other is a high-level one that had
| two 100EUR main boards in less than 8 years. Guess what kind of
| washing machine will be the next I buy.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Miele's reputation was tarnished this/last year because of
| their new stance of replacement parts. From now on, only
| licensed Miele repairmen are able to order spare parts. General
| repairmen are seeing their Miele parts inventory shrink and
| will have to stop servicing Miele devices entirely.
| manuelabeledo wrote:
| They may need to rethink their position, as the EU just
| introduced laws to give consumers the right to repair [1].
|
| Apparently, this also covers professionals not directly
| associated with manufacturers, i.e. licensed repairmen.
|
| [1] https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=2ddc8907-8
| b7c...
| x86_64Ubuntu wrote:
| I'm not sure if hoarding the replacement parts goes against
| any of the Right-To-Repair legislation set forth. In your
| source it even says so ='(
|
| "So long as end users are not empowered to access spare
| parts and necessary manuals, certain manufacturers could be
| non-responsive to end users and continue to stifle access
| to repair.[4]"
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Yeah the timing of this felt really weird on Miele's part,
| with growing consumer awareness of repairability and
| durability.
| alliao wrote:
| I bought a miele dishwasher in 2013 or so, it ran fine for a
| while but I got an F24 error and it's a relay part.
|
| I took the unit apart as we were in lock down and I didn't
| expect help to be easily available, and found the relay was
| in fact no longer a relay but an IC which got damp due to bad
| installation.
|
| I think a proper relay would have taken better abuse rather
| than the IC part.
|
| I sprayed it with MAF cleaner (for cars) and once it dried
| out it was working again. But I did feel a little uneasy
| recommending miele to friends and families since. little
| things I guess.
|
| perhaps with chip shortage they'd go back to tried and tested
| 80s parts?
| tfandango wrote:
| I have a maytag washer/dryer that is a little over 2 years old.
| The frustrating part is they have "10 year warranty" stickers all
| over them. They dryer failed 3 times (different part each time)
| and I learned that the 10 year warranty ONLY covers the motor and
| the drum (big metal tube). Those are the 2 parts that never
| break. On the upside the machine is so incredibly simple I've
| been able to disassemble the entire thing and fix whatever is
| broken on my own, so keeping it up and running requires some
| handiness and some spare parts.
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| Ironically, I have an LG that was considered top-of-the-line
| when I bought it ten+ years ago, and the drum _is_ the thing
| that broke. Still no idea what happened but it had a huge gash.
| Think I had to pay some kind of service fee but basically a
| free replacement.
| cebert wrote:
| I purchased a SpeedQueen washer and dryer combo set this October
| and was delivered towards the end of December. They're a US-based
| manufacturer based out of Wisconsin. It is still early for me to
| post a final review, but so far I love it. You can tell the units
| are built solidly and they do a great job cleaning cloths. These
| units were quite a bit more expensive than typical units you will
| find at Home Depot, but I am happy with my purchase. Supposedly,
| these units can last 20-25 years.
| eadmund wrote:
| Hate to say that Speed Queens might have gotten worse in the
| last several years:
| https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/speed-queen-washer/
|
| I do not have one, so do not know how true the article is.
| jtbayly wrote:
| Wow. Thanks for posting this. We love our 20 year old Speed
| Queen. Glad to know I should keep it going rather than
| replace it if it needs a repair in the next 20 years.
| coolso wrote:
| FWIW I would not bank any major decision - one way or the
| other - based on anything Wirecutter says. I've been screwed
| over listening to them far too many times to count. Other
| review sites aren't much better.
|
| Sometimes it's better to just go with your gut and word of
| mouth reputation. There are far too many variables for
| testers to test accurately, in addition to any biases that
| may exist.
|
| I'm growing tired of these organizations that claim to be -
| or are treated as - the end all be all for anything -
| reviews, knowledge, shopping, etc. It sounds good, but it's
| often much different from reality if you dig a little deeper.
| derbOac wrote:
| We sort of inherited a relatively new-ish SQ with our house,
| and it's been an interesting experience.
|
| I was aware of SQ before, but only minimally so, and so
| looked into them, finding out there is a split between a sort
| of SQ fan base and review outlets like Consumer Reports,
| Wirecutter, etc. At the time, I was skeptical of the fan
| base, trusted these review outlets more, and had a modern
| front-loader before that, but figured it didn't cost us
| anything so would give it a try.
|
| I really love the SQ washer actually. I don't know that I
| like it more than the front loader before it but it's been
| very reliable and cleans well.
|
| I've noticed that SQ seems to treat its washer design as if
| washing machines are tools to be used, rather than as a
| device that washes your clothes for you. So, for example, I
| do think a modern front loader would clean clothes better on
| a default setting, _but_ I can customize the cycles a lot
| more with our SQ, so in the end they come out the same.
|
| If you have reviews that are standardized so the testers push
| a "normal wash button" and evaluate the output, it's
| misleading, because that's not really how SQ machines shine.
| They're also not very water efficient, leading to some
| controversies when they started to be reviewed by popular
| review outlets.
|
| Anyway, it seems like some of the newer electronic control
| models aren't quite as popular, and there's some issues along
| these lines with how review outlets evaluate products. The
| even newer ones that are more like they're older ones are
| more popular, and I'm not sure the way consumer sites review
| machines is quite right for something like SQ anyway. If you
| look at front-loading machines, for example, SQ is a higher-
| rated brand; I think this is partly due to smaller
| differences between brands in how controls are implemented.
|
| I think if we had to replace the machine, I'd probably get a
| front-loader, but I'd probably want a SQ again.
|
| In any event, it (along with some other similar issues with
| other product categories) has really convinced me that these
| standardized product review sites aren't quite picking up on
| certain things in the way I might have thought 10 years ago.
| Something seems off to me about them in a way I can't quite
| put my finger on, even though in general I think those kinds
| of review processes (third-party standardized product
| testing) are essential and usually the bar to meet.
| User23 wrote:
| They backtracked on that. The TC5 uses their traditional
| action[1].
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_Queen#cite_note-5
| ggm wrote:
| There's bad, and there's "Gorenje Pacific" bad. It's -(edit: was
| Romanian) Slovenian, branded to sound like a Japanese quality
| brand name. We got one to wash diapers and when it was stolen I
| was forbidden to replace like with like.
|
| Maytag may have reached an outer circle of Dante's inferno but
| the cold heart is Gorenje.
| eCa wrote:
| Minor correction: Gorenje is Slovenian, now owned by a Chinese
| company.
| ggm wrote:
| Actually.. ours might have been _Yugoslavian_ because this
| was in '92
| dotancohen wrote:
| That would explain the quality.
|
| I do honestly believe that the Yugoslavian manufacturing
| industry was conceived solely to make the Italian
| manufacturing industry look decent.
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| My Yugo SKS is pretty solid (better than the Chinese
| ones, but arguably not as nice as the original Russian
| ones though...).
| dotancohen wrote:
| Interesting, I didn't know that they made a PAP. What
| year was it manufactured? I suppose the real question is,
| how well does the bolt lock and slide? The furniture is
| of less concern.
|
| I've never handled a PAP, they're not common where I
| live. I have seen the difference between the Russian and
| the Chinese AKs, though, and so I do understand what you
| mean.
| dotancohen wrote:
| I just found this in the PAP Wikipedia article [1]:
| > In most variants (Yugoslav models being the most
| notable > exception), the barrel is chrome-lined
|
| That reinforces my comment about the Yugoslav
| manufacturing industry!
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKS
| Cockbrand wrote:
| Minor correction to the minor correction: according to
| Wikipedia, Gorenje has been owned by Chinese company Hisense
| since 2018, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorenje
| ggm wrote:
| The quality may have gone up. Hisense did pretty good
| digital TVs.
| jlangenauer wrote:
| Wait, someone stole a _washing machine_? I have to know more
| about this.
| ggm wrote:
| Yea, we had it set up under the house, came home from a beach
| holiday and the offspring said _" where's the washing
| machine"_
|
| Gone. We just replaced it, but we put the replacement inside.
| op00to wrote:
| Do you live in a tree?
| ggm wrote:
| Queensland. Wooden Houses on stumps, because tropics.
| Most people use under their house as a combo workspace,
| dumping ground, and in our case, washing-hanging-space.
|
| You wind up boarding it up and turning it into "inside"
| space a lot of the time which is why "legal height under"
| is a thing in real estate ads here. The rise of AC made
| it less necessary to be ventilated under the floors. Also
| its about termites: modern build uses a concrete slab,
| less risk.
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