[HN Gopher] Tesla Model 3 Owner Discovers Car Was Delivered Miss...
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Tesla Model 3 Owner Discovers Car Was Delivered Missing a Brake Pad
Author : Syonyk
Score : 174 points
Date : 2022-01-15 20:07 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.thedrive.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.thedrive.com)
| blinkingled wrote:
| This is also a point against online ordering cars - if I can walk
| into a car dealership, inspect and test drive the car before
| committing to buying it, that helps everyone - I can have peace
| of mind, dealership or manufacturer can fix identified defects
| before putting the car out again and the process works -
| manufacturer has incentives to ship as perfect a product as they
| can considering the dealer is putting their money on the line,
| Dealers can address minor defects in the pre delivery inspection
| etc.
|
| None of that is possible with Tesla's model - they basically have
| to get a car looking thing out the door as fast as they can,
| there's no dealership to cross check and the customer is left
| with the pieces or the option of waiting in the hope that next
| one will be better.
| driverdan wrote:
| Many people order new cars from other companies because they're
| not available on the lot.
|
| You could still refuse delivery. If I were buying a Tesla I'd
| do a very thorough inspection of it before accepting it.
| vkat wrote:
| I did not buy my car from the dealership lot. They had to put
| in an order and I waited 3 months for it to be finally
| available for me to pick up. I could track everything happening
| with the car. The car was sitting in the container port for an
| usually long time (2 weeks) so when I asked my dealer he
| tracked it down and said there was curb damage to the wheel and
| they had to wait for replacement.
|
| Now, I don't expect this kind of service from Tesla but my
| point is it doesn't matter if you are able to test drive it or
| not from the dealership and inspect for defects; the
| manufacturer should have a rigorous quality process that
| doesn't let these kind of slip ups to happen and if it does
| happen make it right by the customer.
| blinkingled wrote:
| > so when I asked my dealer he tracked it down and said there
| was curb damage to the wheel and they had to wait for
| replacement.
|
| So having a Dealer deal with it helped? As in they did the
| inspection for you and got it fixed? It's practically
| equivalent to buying off a lot if you think about it without
| the extra step of you doing another inspection to catch what
| the dealer might have missed.
|
| With Tesla it's between you ordering and the factory
| shipping. No additional independent QC like the Dealership
| and no chance to pre-inspect.
| vkat wrote:
| >So having a Dealer deal with it helped? As in they did the
| inspection for you and got it fixed?
|
| No it wasn't the dealer that replaced the wheel but a
| receiving port of the manufacturer in the east coast.
| hnburnsy wrote:
| GM issues 2012 Chevy Sonic recall for missing brake pads
|
| The new brake pad recall for the 2012 Chevrolet Sonic affects
| 4,296 vehicles sold in the United States while another 577 were
| sold in Canada, with all of the vehicles included in this recall
| built between June 2nd, 2011 and November 21st, 2011 at GM's
| Orion Township Assembly Plant just north of Detroit. On these
| recalled 2012 Sonic hatchbacks and sedans, General Motors
| believes that the vehicle could be missing either an inner or
| outer brake pad on the front end.
|
| Https://www.torquenews.com/106/gm-issues-2012-chevy-sonic-recall-
| missing-brake-pads
| MBCook wrote:
| Nothing in the article indicates that GM told the customer this
| was normal or OK and that they didn't need to worry about it.
|
| That's the most egregious thing to me.
| trulyme wrote:
| Also:
|
| > ...but luckily, GM has caught the problem and is recalling
| them right away...thus removing the safety risk and the cost
| of repairing the problem from the owners.
|
| Quite different from the way Tesla is handling this.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| The Sonic is also the car that had defective ignition switches
| that led to numerous deaths because the engine would suddenly
| shut off while driving, disabling the electric power
| steering...and even worse, the airbag system would get disabled
| and not work in an ensuing crash.
|
| In a civil suit a family's attorney found GM's supplier
| dramatically changed the ignition switch, and GM claimed that
| they had no idea why or that it even happened (which is
| ludicrous to anyone even proximate to the auto industry. Any
| time a part is revised, even slightly, it tends to get a part
| number suffix.)
|
| Sonic's product manager claimed he had no knowledge of ignition
| switch changes. "I put my own son in a Sonic" etc etc.
|
| Eventually the whole mess blew up to the point that Congress
| got involved, subpoaenaed a battleship's worth of documents
| from GM and...lo and behold, what comes out? Lots of emails
| from the same Sonic product manager about the ignition switch.
|
| There was an NPR/APM/etc show episode about it...wish I could
| remember which one.
| sidcool wrote:
| Has Tesla raised the bar of expectations so high that a mistakes
| that most car makers have made multiple times are like
| existential threats for Tesla?
| aemreunal wrote:
| I see a lot of "whataboutism" in the comments, mostly from people
| who (for some reason) feel the need to defend Tesla. What's the
| purpose of this? Criticizing a company or calling out their
| mistake does not detract from it, it pushes them to get better in
| fact. You can love something/someone and still recognize their
| shortcomings.
|
| Other car manufacturers making a mistake does not justify Tesla's
| mistake or their handling of the situation. We are supposed to
| hold _all_ car manufacturers to the highest standards instead of
| justifying Tesla 's mistake with someone else's.
| cblconfederate wrote:
| It could be some new friction-based regenerative braking, we ll
| have to wait to hear from TSLA
| fortran77 wrote:
| Tesla never should have branded the "Model 3" a Tesla. It brings
| the whole brand down. You can't have a "luxury brand" and have a
| cheap model.
|
| They need to rebrand it the "Strive" or the "Dream" or the
| "Yearn" and remove Tesla branding and have separate dealers.
| speedgoose wrote:
| To be honest Tesla is not a luxury brand. The old roadster
| based on a lotus is far from the luxury world and while a model
| s or x are very premium, it's not luxury level where being
| overpriced is a feature.
| Animats wrote:
| It's amusing that Tesla now promises the car by Jan 19th, just
| before the 30 days of most "lemon laws" kick in.
| cromka wrote:
| "(...) and finally request a video of the issue.
|
| Gillmore recorded the above video to send to her Tesla service
| advisor, who claims multiple technicians listened to the video,
| only to declare "the brakes sounded normal for a performance
| Model 3."
|
| Watch the video. It's incomprehensible how could anyone who has
| some experience with cars say that such sound, while breaking, is
| normal. If I was Elon, I would seriously question whoever at
| Tesla had said so. And by that, I mean, literally just fire them,
| because, damn, how can one be so ignorant when it comes something
| so crucial to safety?
| justapassenger wrote:
| > If I was Elon, I would seriously question whoever at Tesla
| had said so. And by that, I mean, literally just fire them,
| because, damn, how can one be so ignorant when it comes
| something so crucial to safety?
|
| Elon is first one to blame for it. Sloppy quality and disregard
| for safety issues that creates comes all the way down from
| Elon. This problem is deeply rooted in the organization, that's
| only optimizing for growth, at all costs. It's well known
| Silicon Valley playbook. But it's not that great when you apply
| it to the cars, not some random app.
| Syonyk wrote:
| Seriously. That's insanely obviously metal on metal, which
| shouldn't be a sound you find in the brake system, especially
| under what's clearly mild low speed braking.
|
| The next obvious question: If multiple people think that's
| "normal for a performance Model 3," how many others are being
| delivered without brake pads?
| cromka wrote:
| Yeah, on top of that, as someone pointed out in the comment
| section on the page linked:
|
| "See that green dot on the top of the right picture? That is
| an assembly inspection mark that someone put there at the
| factory to indicate the caliper was 100% correct and
| inspected. Guess that person is bad at their job."
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's two people bad at their job. Both the person that
| assembled it _and_ the person that checked it.
|
| When you build a car you do it from very precisely
| controlled sets of inventory, there is _no way_ that you
| could build a car and have leftover parts and not know
| which car they belonged to at any build step.
| Syonyk wrote:
| > _When you build a car you do it from very precisely
| controlled sets of inventory..._
|
| You _should_ do it from...
|
| Remember, Tesla's shtick for a while was to claim that
| the legacy automakers were dumb dinosaurs who didn't know
| code, and therefore Tesla would _show them_ by building
| sonic velocity lights out dreadnaught factories where
| there weren 't any tolerances at all, and... currently
| builds cars on a line that's basically indistinguishable
| from what everyone else uses.
|
| In throwing out everything the "dinosaurs" did, it's
| entirely possible they threw out a range of useful things
| as well like "The number of parts delivered equals the
| number of vehicles to be built."
| jacquesm wrote:
| Fair enough, they might be building them from large
| chunks of stock. Still, that would be a monumentally
| stupid move, you could easily forget something even more
| crucial like that, for instance a circlip on the steering
| housing. That would be a real surprise, better hope you
| have paid for self driving if that ever happens ;)
| aunty_helen wrote:
| I'm not sure about the performance model 3 and it's brake
| pads but you can get performance break pads that sound like
| that. Even ones that sqeak at low speed.
|
| Ferodo DS2500 if you want a set for yourself. Drive to the
| track, track and home again without issues.
| cromka wrote:
| I just checked: https://youtu.be/-KNXvqmqNr0?t=30
|
| To be honest, what I hear is a whistling sound, not metal
| on metal - that kind of sound that instantly sends shivers
| down your spine.
| Syonyk wrote:
| That's because they're doing the same things to the rotor
| at low temperatures that a caliper does - just abrading
| away rotor material to slow the car. Track pads are great
| when hot, not so amazing when cold. Yes, I _know_ there are
| plenty that claim to be able to do everything, but your
| rotor life will suffer.
|
| However, it's not something one should expect from a
| factory vehicle - and if you've installed higher
| performance track pads yourself, you should be able to
| determine if it's normal. Also, they'll sound the same from
| all four corners - this sound just came from one corner.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I ran DS2500s for years on my first STI. They would
| resonate and make a squeal, but it wasn't at all the same
| as metal-on-metal grinding from a worn out or missing brake
| pad.
|
| Also, I don't recommend DS2500s on a street car. They're
| intended to be a compromise pad that works on the street
| and the track both, but the performance is significantly
| worse when they're not heated up, so the first stop of the
| day on a cool morning can be surprising. Better to get real
| street pads and real track pads and swap them. It's super
| easy on fixed caliper brakes.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| I ran the DS2500s for a couple years before shopping
| around a bit to see what was out there. I settled on
| custom made pads using a Mintex material which pn escapes
| me now.
|
| I used some pretty decent brands and pads and found the
| Forodos were the only ones that I couldn't get to fade in
| the hills. Their friction coefficient starts at 50c so
| it's definitely not unreasonable like actual race pads
| that can start in the 125c+ range.
|
| I only ever found them a little suprising when they had
| been hot hot and then the next morning it would take a
| bit more of a press on the peddal to pull up and the stop
| lights. I still always had confidence that if I stood on
| it they would pull up in time.
|
| As for running propper race pads at the track, that's
| fine and I had the same brembos you would've but
| replacing the rotors I was using wasn't something I
| wanted to shell out for every few track days. The Forodos
| never had any fade issues on track and I have a picture
| with the back wheels almost lifting as I brake from speed
| cut.
| mdoms wrote:
| > I'm not sure about the performance model 3 and it's brake
| pads but you can get performance break pads that sound like
| that. Even ones that sqeak at low speed.
|
| No. If you don't know anything about cars please feel free
| not to comment. Performance brakes can absolutely be noisy
| but they ABSOLUTELY do not sound like metal scraping metal.
| I have heard all kinds of performance brakes - carbon
| brakes, high end drilled rotors with the hardest pads you
| can imagine, everything. The most alarming sound you'll
| hear from performance brakes is a nasty squeal. They DO NOT
| sound like this. You are spreading misinformation.
| aunty_helen wrote:
| I used to get custom made pads for my car that I would
| drive on the street and track. So yea thanks for your
| concern.
|
| Sintered metal pads definitely sound like metal metal
| contact at low speed and even more so when they've
| recently been hot.
|
| Watch the video. It doesn't sound that bad and I can
| understand the engineers but probably wouldn't expect
| that much from a "performance model"
|
| Remember my BMW Martin, that ran pads that would make
| horrible sounds. However the Integra and it's brembos
| that used to take a beating a Ruapuna often sounded like
| something you would want to pull over and check out. ;)
| Rapzid wrote:
| Wouldn't the Tesla itself know something was wrong with the
| braking system based on the performance metrics it gathers?!
| rootusrootus wrote:
| As a former owner of a Model 3 Performance, I can almost
| understand the comment -- as long as they didn't really
| _listen_ to the video. The brakes on the P3D will develop an
| unholy squeal after a couple weeks of driving around normally
| using regen for braking. I developed my own routine of goosing
| it on the last major road before my neighborhood so that I
| could really use the friction brakes significantly, or I 'd
| eventually find myself waking up the neighbors when backing out
| of my driveway.
|
| I figured it was probably because the P3D gets fixed instead of
| floating calipers, and fixed caliper brakes typically have some
| quirks. Noises being the most obvious one.
| Syonyk wrote:
| I do much the same with our Volt - I have to slow down on a
| downhill to get in our driveway, and when I've got the car
| with nobody else in it, and nobody behind me, I build up some
| speed then really get on the friction brakes hard to keep
| them free and clean. If you never use the friction brakes,
| they'll also tend to seize up after a while.
| crowdwrench wrote:
| Quick tip, you can do this much easier by shifting the Volt
| into neutral and then braking. In D and L, the volt
| actually produces very significant braking via regen via
| the brake pedal, so much so that you'll have to really
| brake hard to get any friction braking action. In neutral,
| regen is turned off and all brake pedal travel is actually
| physical brakes. You'll be able to clean off your brakes
| once in a while with just casual easy braking if done in N.
| Even if you keep your same procedure you use today, you'll
| get more effect doing it in N.
| Syonyk wrote:
| I actually do it in N, because, yes, you're absolutely
| right - it's wonderfully regen heavy. I cannot express
| just how nice coming down a mountain grade is with the
| Volt - put it in L, set cruise control to the recommended
| speed, and... keep it in the lane. It just sits at at the
| set speed and regens down without any drama whatsoever.
|
| Various states have assorted laws about being in neutral
| on a public roadway, and while I don't feel it's a safety
| issue in the Volt, it wasn't something I was going to
| casually mention either. However, since it was brought
| up...
| erwincoumans wrote:
| Just curious, you already replaced the Model 3 performance,
| how long did you own it, and what car did you replace it with
| (if any)?
|
| (I'm still happy with mine, but will check if my brake pads
| are missing)
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I owned it 18 months. I sold it last year after it was
| clear that I'd never be commuting again, it was sitting
| unused for about 25 out of every 30 days. I now share a
| family car with my wife, and bought myself a Porsche as my
| fun car.
| jacquesm wrote:
| And now the piston will be damaged as well.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's got to be a first. I've _never, ever_ heard of a critical
| safety component not installed on a car while supposedly passing
| QA. The first time you brake with that car you 'll know something
| is off, so even if it wasn't detected in the factory (which
| should be the case) it should have been detected by the shipping
| process.
|
| Hm. Ok, point in Tesla's favor: who knows what dealers find in
| terms of missing bits and pieces on cars they pass to customers.
| But with direct-to-consumer there is no such middle man who has
| their own reputation to uphold.
|
| Regardless, this should have never ever happened.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| I've said this multiple times and it still bears repeating. The
| current EV race can be summed up to this:
|
| Can Tesla learn to build a car around their computer faster than
| traditional car companies learn to add a computer in their car.
|
| So far the competition is neck and neck...
| MauroIksem wrote:
| I picked up my model 3 long range in december also and it was
| also missing parts. Mine was missing USB ports in the center
| console and the wireless charging pad for the phone. When i
| questioned them about they tried to lie about it and said that my
| phone was the problem. I demanded to speak to the manager who
| admitted right away that the car was indeed missing a part and
| that they would fix it later. My front bumper was also scratched
| and missing paint. They fixed that by replacing the entire
| bumper. Buying from them is a nightmare.
| dawnerd wrote:
| The missing usb was a post delivery fix for a lot of people due
| to supply issues. You should have been alerted to this before
| delivery. It sucks their service people don't care. I had to
| argue about my wheels being completely curbed in delivery and
| they insisted they weren't. Car sales/service people are all
| the same it seems.
| Syonyk wrote:
| > _I demanded to speak to the manager who admitted right away
| that the car was indeed missing a part and that they would fix
| it later._
|
| That sounds suspiciously like, "We were aware of that and were
| hoping you wouldn't notice, but we can't get the parts. If we
| promise to call you later, will you stop bothering us?"
| hn8788 wrote:
| It wasn't even just that dealership, it was every Model 3
| shipped during a certain time period. Back when it was
| happening, there were posts about it on the Tesla subreddit.
| Nobody was told their car wasn't going to have the features
| they paid for, and Tesla blamed it on the chip shortage and
| said they'd install the missing features once they had the
| supplies.
| erwincoumans wrote:
| You would expect Tesla to make sure customers are well
| informed about certain features are missing, and being
| added when they become available. The missing USB was known
| (due to unavailability). For missing brake pads, you hope
| q&a catches that, and some electronic alert shows up if
| brake pads are missing (or worn beyond being useful).
| mkmk wrote:
| I know somebody who had the exact same experience with their
| usb ports on a different model Tesla. This is either a
| recurring QA issue or a way to "deliver" cars despite supply
| chain issues.
| hotpotamus wrote:
| > Buying from them is a nightmare.
|
| So what is it about the car that makes them so popular now? I
| assume you could have refused to take it and they wouldn't be
| bothered because they could just sell it to the next person to
| walk in. Is it inherent to Tesla or is it just that all cars
| are scarce now and hard to keep in stock.
| speedgoose wrote:
| > So what is it about the car that makes them so popular now?
|
| They are better cars overall. And you can actually buy them.
| hn8788 wrote:
| At this point I think the cars are popular because it's
| considered a cool status symbol, not because it's any good.
| I've got a co-worker who bought a Tesla and kept having
| issues with it, but still bought a new Model S a couple of
| weeks ago. It's already having electrical issues and other
| false alarms popping up on the phone app. He still gushes
| about how Tesla's are great cars, and how Musk is a genious
| that is leading humanity into the future.
|
| It honestly reminds me of when I was in Iraq in the early
| 2000s, and you'd see police chiefs and mayors with iphones.
| The phones didn't work on the cell network, but they were
| still highly sought after because it was an expensive piece
| of technology that almost nobody there could afford.
| vkou wrote:
| > So what is it about the car that makes them so popular now?
|
| Marketing.
|
| > Is it inherent to Tesla or is it just that all cars are
| scarce now and hard to keep in stock.
|
| Are you going to break a deal you invested so much into over
| a missing USB port, phone charger, and a fucked up bumper?
| Most people won't. They just want all that shit to be over
| with, so that they can drive their car home.
| fallingknife wrote:
| Tesla is known for doing less marketing than any other car
| company.
| vkou wrote:
| It does less traditional ads-on-search-results-and-
| television marketing, it does its marketing through
| submarine articles in a favorable press, and social
| media.
|
| Elon Musk is also fundamentally incapable of staying
| quiet for more than five minutes, and for various
| reasons, has a large following of groupies, that do his
| marketing for him.
| ChrisClark wrote:
| >So what is it about the car that makes them so popular now?
|
| Because the buying process is super simple and easy, you pick
| what you want, buy it, no haggling. They get it ready, you
| pick it up.
|
| The cars are rated the safest on the road, have the fewest
| accidents per mile, practically no maintenance ever needing
| to be done, maybe change the brake pads every 5-10 years,
| battery will last 500k KM or more, autopilot is amazing, pre-
| warm up the car in a closed garage, and more.
|
| I've never once had a problem in the past 3 years of owning
| it, it's just a joy to have and drive.
|
| I even got an OTA update that tweaked the motors a bit and
| gave me faster acceleration and increased range compared to
| when I first picked it up, for free.
| savant_penguin wrote:
| If this was apple fanboys would say:
|
| "You know how much energy you save by not breaking?? Think of the
| planet!"
|
| "If you need to break you're not using the car as intended!" (Rip
| overheating macs)
| zibzab wrote:
| Given the horrible working conditions at Tesla, I am surprised we
| haven't seen far worse things yet.
| maxdo wrote:
| t0mas88 wrote:
| > So much drama from a missing part due to covid. Almost every
| car manufacture is facing it.
|
| It's not the wait time for a part that's the most ridiculous
| thing here. It's that they sold the car with a key component of
| the brake system missing. And then when the customer complained
| they made things 10x worse by claiming it was all normal. No
| other car maker did this.
| dymk wrote:
| The drama isn't because of a parts shortage, it's that Tesla
| forgot to install brakes on this car. If you don't have break
| pads, don't deliver the car back to the owner.
| maxdo wrote:
| Yes, Evil Elon ordered to deliver cars with 3 brakes. It's a
| single incident. This happening with every car brands.
| Including luxury ones. Use google if you don't believe. If
| there will be a part, this article would not exists.
| Larrikin wrote:
| How much are you invested in Tesla, so that you're willing
| to vigorously argue for and justify delivering a car that
| is missing brakes in multiple comments. Elon fanboyism
| doesn't make sense in this case.
| vkou wrote:
| The three-week waiting period to install a break pad once the
| issue was identified is a parts shortage. It hearkens back to
| Soviet auto manufacturers.
|
| For obvious reasons, Soviet central planners wanted to get
| cars into the hands of consumers. For obvious reasons, Soviet
| auto manufacturers were driven to get as many cars into the
| hands of consumers as they could.
|
| The obvious outcome of this incentive was that the
| manufacturers had zero interest in shipping any spare/repair
| parts for any of their vehicles. Why ship parts, when you can
| ship cars instead? Nobody at the politburo is going to give
| you a pat on the head for supporting aftermarket auto
| repairs...
| swarnie wrote:
| > So much drama from a missing part due to covid. Almost every
| car manufacture is facing it.
|
| Wait, what?
|
| Every other company is dealing with shortage by not sending out
| incomplete cars missing vital parts, like the brake.
| maxdo wrote:
| Yeah, how about Ford sold 10000 Mach-E cars without putting
| proper glue for the roof?
| dillondoyle wrote:
| But this is a critical missing part. Safety too. When Ford or
| Toyota are missing critical parts, they don't sell the car.
| maxdo wrote:
| They do, you just don't read about one bad car incident. 1
| millions BMW recalled with a risk of fire, youtube "BMW on
| fire". Is catching on fire is a basic safety part?
| yellow_lead wrote:
| > Since Tesla no longer has a media relations department, The
| Drive was unable to reach out to the automaker for comment.
|
| This makes them look really unprofessional, despite how cool Elon
| thinks it is.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| It's not a matter of being cool. It's a matter of going next-
| level with "no comment."
|
| Tesla has some bad PR, the press can't get anything out of
| Tesla so the story is dead out the door, and Telsa's PR team
| comes up with some stupid stunt to get social media trending on
| the stunt...problem solved. "Oh, you see that thing about
| Tesla?" is about their cars blinking their headlights to
| Christmas music, and not, say, the feds ramping up their
| investigation into Teslas slamming into roadside emergency
| vehicles.
|
| Standard corporate "disaster management" is essentially "hide
| everyone, don't say a fucking word, wait to get out of the news
| cycle."
| maxdo wrote:
| Whether you liked tesla or not, they been on a constant attack
| by traditional media. Every single miss do of tesla is
| amplified 1000 times, like their stocks. BMW recalled almost 1
| millions cars due to risk of fire? Put on youtube "BMW on Fire"
| they still catching on fire. My friend jumped out of the BMW
| car in 3 rd lane of 6 lane highway, almost died. Did you see
| any bad press about it?
|
| So basically tesla had two ways, try to buy more of this media,
| or don't feed the troll. I think it's smart to just ignore
| corruption.
| draw_down wrote:
| mattacular wrote:
| Once you understand that Tesla exists to sell EV tax credits and
| hold a massively overinflated stock valuation based on
| ...apparently nothing... and so therefore making cars is actually
| far down their list of priorities stuff like this should not come
| as a surprise.
|
| These vehicles are objectively bad: Poor design and even poorer
| manufacturing. Every one I've seen up close in person has
| numerous exterior fit and finish problems. The interiors feel
| very very cheap for a vehicle in their price range. They catch
| fire. They don't work well in extreme weather. Bumpers fall off
| randomly. If you think these sorts of problems don't extend to
| the mechanical and software components, well, I've got a Tesla to
| sell you.
| cs702 wrote:
| A more accurate headline would be:
|
| "Tesla Model 3 owner _claims_ car was delivered missing a brake
| pad "
|
| ...because the only evidence we've seen so far comes from the
| owner, and Tesla has not yet had a chance to investigate what
| happened and provide the media with an official response. All
| messages, photos, and videos I've seen are from the owner.
|
| If this is Tesla's fault, _shame on the company_. But we don 't
| know for sure yet, and given how much hatred is directed at the
| company (and Musk, in particular) we have to consider the
| possibility that this could be: (a) a rare case involving unusual
| circumstances for a single vehicle out of a few million sold to
| date, or (b) a malicious hit job.
|
| I, for one, will keep an open mind, waiting to pass judgment
| until there's more information about what actually happened here.
| asciimov wrote:
| Either way, it shouldn't take Tesla more than 3 working days to
| remedy this situation. Breakpads are a common vehicle
| consumable that should be available at every dealership. The
| rotor and a caliper should also be common enough that they
| could be overnighted or second day shipped. The work itself is
| simple enough that any shop tech could accomplish in under 2
| hours (even the new guys that just change oil).
| albertopv wrote:
| Shit can happen (this is a bad one though), how it is managed
| makes quite a difference.
|
| 9 years ago my father bought a new Mercedes B-class. Having been
| a truck driver for decades, he knows how to look at details. When
| he got the car he discovered front wheels brakes where different,
| on each wheel there was a different type of brake(I don't exactly
| recall the issue). Obviously he didn't accepted the car, Mercedes
| gave him a temporary car and repaired the new B-class at no cost.
| Syonyk wrote:
| I've been critical of Tesla before for various reasons, "Building
| throwaway cars" being one, and people keep insisting that, no,
| really, this year, Tesla has fixed their problems and such.
|
| If you can deliver a car without a brake pad, that speaks to epic
| quality control failures (EDIT: A comment in the article points
| out the green "quality control" mark that is obvious on the
| caliper, which _should_ indicate that everything was assembled
| properly - so things are seriously broken if it can be assembled
| wrong _and then have a QC mark applied while still being entirely
| wrong_ ). I cannot imagine Honda or Toyota shipping a car without
| a brake pad. I can't imagine Ford or GM doing it either. I'd be
| down into the "Uh... I think I've heard of you once..." non-
| western car manufacturers before it wouldn't surprise me.
|
| Then, the absolutely horrid service center experience of "Oh, no,
| you don't know what you're talking about, that's normal, and we
| can't fix it any time soon anyway" is just absurd.
|
| I know Tesla likes to rag on the horrors of the dealership model,
| but, seriously, I can't imagine getting this treatment with a
| legacy automaker. Not that I worry about them forgetting to put
| pieces in, either.
| oxplot wrote:
| Tade0 wrote:
| > I can't imagine getting this treatment with a legacy
| automaker.
|
| I can. My friend drives a 2016 VW Touareg which he got used - I
| was present during the purchase and the previous owner told us
| that the coolant needs to be topped off from time to time -
| nothing big, but he said that the authorized service center
| shrugged this off as something they won't bother fixing.
| Syonyk wrote:
| How much, and how far apart?
|
| There's a difference between "half a cup or so ever few
| months" and "I have to carry coolant around with me." The
| reserve tank will comfortably make up the first in any
| reasonable driving situation, the second is a problem.
|
| Water pumps not weeping a tiny bit is a rather new innovation
| in cars. They typically use coolant to lubricate the seal,
| and some will get through.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| I don't know of a single car made in the last 10 years
| where it's normal to lose "half a cup over every few
| months." Every car I or my family have owned in the last
| thirty years has never needed coolant added to it over
| _years_ of ownership.
|
| Water pumps "weeping" coolant is a sign of failed seal, not
| by design.
|
| The GP commenter's buddy was sold a car by someone who was
| trying to pass off a needed repair; likely a leaking
| radiator or failing head gasket if they were unlucky. If
| they were lucky: a bad radiator cap or a failing coolant
| system hose.
|
| If they were really, really unlucky: a failing heater core.
| aaroninsf wrote:
| First thought,
|
| on the rare occasions we have car shopped, VW was removed
| from the list (along with e.g. Jeep) because of what appeared
| to be continually poor QA and reliability. Led us to give up
| on the idea of trying to go biodiesel (dodged a bullet
| there...).
|
| But Tesla seems to have a really remarkable problem.
| foepys wrote:
| I cannot confirm VWs being unreliable. My family drives 4
| 18+ year old VWs (3 Golf, 1 Passat), all Diesel with
| 150,000+ km (2 with 300,000+ km) on them. Not a single
| rusty part, all on their first clutches (one is pulling
| trailers regularly), and only a single one needs a cup of
| oil every 1,000 km.
|
| Maybe the VW plants in America are different but my family
| in Germany will buy VW (or Skoda/Seat) again when the cars
| give up eventually. Just this time no Diesel.
| cromka wrote:
| > biodiesel
|
| Out of curiosity, what's wrong with that?
| jahewson wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scanda
| l
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Gunks up the emissions equipment
| jacquesm wrote:
| Interesting. So, to counter that, I've driven VW for many
| years in many different models on ridiculous mileage and
| never had a single issue with them.
|
| This was until about 2008 when I switched to Mercedes,
| those too were pretty reliable until the last one, which
| was a recent vintage C class. Now I drive an oldie (25 this
| january).
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| German cars have a weird reputation as being unreliable
| in the US. Which seems strange as a European where they
| generally have a pretty good reputation, maybe not as
| good as the Japanese brands but not a million miles away.
|
| I think the difference is likely just that the average
| backstreet garage knows all the faults on a 2005 VW Jetta
| and how to fix them, they have the right diagnostic
| equipment to plug them in and read the fault codes etc.
|
| In the US I suspect they'd be the same with most GM /
| Ford / Honda cars of the same era but would think twice
| about touching a VW or Mercedes.
| deycallmeajay wrote:
| Kind of a big difference between getting the car from the
| factory and getting it used.
| blinkingled wrote:
| Also missing brake pad out of factory line is colossally
| bad QA compared to hard design and metallurgy issues that
| cause softer piston rings after 100k miles or gaskets that
| leak coolant after 50k .
|
| Yeah but Tesla fans will defend bad stuff by pointing out
| not so great stuff from the competitors. In that respect
| you can say they're just like Apple fans.
| jacquesm wrote:
| A brand new car vs a used car which has been through who
| knows what kind of stuff between delivery and the factory, a
| slow coolant leak (which could be anything from a bad clamp,
| ripped hose or a serious engine problem) vs a missing safety
| critical component of which there are 8 on every vehicle so
| having one 'left over' from a build set just shouldn't ever
| happen.
|
| These things are not comparable.
| sandoze wrote:
| Ditto. I have a 2010 Prius that burns oil. The dealer told me
| it's a known issue at 100k miles. Offered to sell me a used
| engine with 70k miles to fix it.. Problem was he admitted
| there was a pretty good chance at 100k+ miles the oil burn
| would come back on the replacement.
|
| No recall, just a 'known' defect. Oh, and because they know
| my car has a defect they made it clear that my trade in value
| would suffer if I wanted to upgrade to their latest and
| greatest model.
| eganist wrote:
| not the same as a car leaving the factory without a
| brakepad.
|
| not even in the same ballpark.
|
| not even on the same continent, for that matter.
| warning26 wrote:
| I agree that this is emblematic of Tesla's terrible QC, but
| your second point about how traditional auto dealerships would
| mitigate it strikes me as questionable.
|
| Being sold a "lemon" has been possible for years, even with the
| traditional dealership model; that's why so many US states have
| "lemon laws" specifically to deal with that scenario.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| Dealerships are both a completely separate legal entity from
| the manufacturer _and_ they have a very strong interest in
| not handing over a defective car to the customer because they
| 're closes to the customer.
|
| They are also required to conduct what's called a PDI - Pre
| Delivery Inspection - before the customer sees or touches the
| car.
|
| The car is prepped for sale, and this includes a number of
| things. Sometimes cars have spacers installed in the
| suspension. Someone plugs in a diagnostic tool and tells the
| car's control modules that the car is no longer being
| stored/shipped, so it can enable all the stuff slowly drains
| the battery like memory settings, keyless ignition RF
| transmission, alarm sensors, etc. There's also a cosmetic
| inspection, where any defects in the paint are taken care of
| by the dealer's in-house detailing/car prep staff.
|
| A big part of the PDI is going over everything safety related
| and making sure that nothing happened to the car as part of
| it being shipped. That includes a test-drive. Usually half an
| hour or so at a variety of speeds, where the test-driver
| makes sure every single part works.
|
| I assure you, the person doing the PDI would notice a missing
| brake pad, even if the dealership mechanic who does the
| mechanical PDI somehow missed "there's a brake pad completely
| missing."
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, but a lemon is a car that is unreliable due to
| intermittent issues, not a missing part in a safety critical
| system that should have resulted in a 'stop the line, we have
| an excess brake pad at the end of our shift', followed by an
| inspection of all vehicles built on that shift _and_ a
| serious upgrade of QA processes. Really, this stinks.
| shalmanese wrote:
| Perhaps the reason why is because there's another Tesla
| driving around right now with two brake pads.
| MobiusHorizons wrote:
| In a disk break setup (which is what this Tesla has)
| there is a caliper with slots for two break pads on each
| wheel. So with 4 wheels that would be 8 break pads. The
| caliper squeezes the pads on both sides of the rotor
| (which is turns with the wheel) in order to slow down.
| This is why having one left over (or just an odd number
| left over) is a red flag. You can't put two many in,
| there is no reasonable way to make that mistake, but you
| could leave one out, so it makes sense to check for that
| mistake.
| mark-r wrote:
| This is why Toyota's Five Whys is so genius. Not only do
| you find out why there's an extra brake pad at the end of
| the shift, but you discover why you didn't catch it during
| the manufacturing process, and how it happened in the first
| place.
| ajross wrote:
| > Yes, but a lemon is a car that is unreliable due to
| intermittent issues
|
| Actually it's a term of some precision, and that's not it.
| "Lemon" laws define the problem as a car with an inherent
| defect that can't be fixed by the manufacturer or dealer
| within some reasonable amount of time (often "three
| attempts", depending on statute). The purpose of the law is
| that consumers shouldn't be on the hook for expensive but
| faulty products.
|
| This isn't a lemon by any of those laws. They fixed the
| brakes and the car is fine now. It's fine to make
| pronouncements about Quality Culture or whatever, but lemon
| statutes aren't really at issue here.
| pdonis wrote:
| _> They fixed the brakes and the car is fine now._
|
| Did they? The latest status I get from the article is
| that the ETA was pushed back again to January 19.
| sharkweek wrote:
| Me and my partner bought our first brand new car (2017
| Highlander for the curious) a few years ago after being a
| used car family for so long. Had a lot of mediocre service
| with used cars, but nothing to write a nasty online review
| about or anything.
|
| Gotta say, with the new car and its full warranty, we have
| felt like kings in comparison to past experience. Anytime we
| need any amount of maintenance we get an appointment and then
| whatever it is is fixed free of charge.
|
| Maybe we got lucky, but the dealership has definitely
| delivered on its promise of complete warranty coverage.
|
| I know many consider buying a new car some kind of financial
| cardinal sin, but I'm sold on it now.
| atdrummond wrote:
| Right now the economics of the used car market are so poor
| that buying new is a better play, assuming you can find the
| vehicle you want.
| metadat wrote:
| Have you verified this personally?
|
| Out of curiosity (and fear), I looked up used 2007
| Highlander this morning on SFBay Craigslist, and there
| was plenty of inventory and they looked like a reasonable
| bargain, around $6-10k for one with relatively low miles
| considering they are 16 years old.
|
| Maybe prices at dealerships are way up? Or people want
| newer cars and those are crazy expensive?
|
| I am certain my friend who just paid way too much for a
| newer used Toyota is a moron in such matters.
| atdrummond wrote:
| It's possible things have changed in the last few months
| but I ended up going with a new hybrid recently (October
| in the Bay Area) when I couldn't find anything reasonably
| priced in the 2-5 year old market I would normally play
| in. I wasn't looking over a decade old but the prices you
| describe still sound higher than what models like that
| were going for pre-pandemic.
| mark-r wrote:
| It's the chip shortage. The demand for new cars is
| greater than the supply because of supply constraints, so
| it spills over to the used car market. Prices in the used
| market go up until supply and demand are balanced again.
| technothrasher wrote:
| Yes, I think you're looking at cars so far back that the
| prices, while still elevated, aren't quite as bad as more
| recent used cars. I just ordered a new car for myself (my
| old car was recently totaled by a deer strike) and had to
| pay MSRP, because nobody is offering any discounts. That
| probably means I paid $1500-$2000 more than I would have
| a few years ago when I could negotiate a deal.
| Alternatively, on my wife's 2018 car that was coming off
| lease, I just bought it out for $27K, while on the open
| market the car is currently worth about $40K. So we're
| looking at $13K overpriced on the used car vs $2K
| overpriced on the new one. Still doesn't quite make up
| the "drive off the lot depreciation" of a new car, but it
| gets pretty close.
| metadat wrote:
| It's not a sin, just do what works for you! People have
| highly variable approaches to the financial side of big
| ticket items.
|
| Highlanders have always been good to me, I've heard of them
| lasting to 500-600k miles without major problems and still
| work fine.
|
| Since I drive about 5k miles per year, I'm hoping mine will
| last me 80 more years. That's reasonable, right? :P
| mdoms wrote:
| This has absolutely nothing to do with "lemon" vehicles which
| are vehicles that run into ongoing or repeated problems. This
| is one single issue that any mechanic worth his overalls can
| (and frequently does) solve in a 2 hour job (and that's
| assuming something goes wrong).
|
| Inability to supply and fit a part that is literally designed
| to wear out is unacceptable.
| mark-r wrote:
| These cars are new enough that they haven't likely needed
| new brake pads. With regenerative braking, the pads don't
| get much use and they last a lot longer than you're used
| to. That would explain why the pads aren't an in-stock
| item.
| serf wrote:
| I did pre-delivery inspections on vehicles for many years at
| an automotive dealership.
|
| one of the numerous things I had to do was test drive every
| single vehicle.
|
| Yes a dealership would have caught this issue before the
| customer -- absolutely.
| [deleted]
| idop wrote:
| Cutting corners is how these so called "tech companies" disrupt
| markets. They remove all the bloat; the bloat being safeguards
| and processes created through years of experience and
| evolution. And we flock to them, praising them for "showing the
| traditional companies how it's done". But sooner or later the
| cracks start to form. The random driver picking you up from
| that app turns out to be a rapist. That house you found at that
| other app turns out to be falling apart and you die. That shiny
| new car turns out to have had zero quality control and is
| dangerous to drive.
|
| So they have to make changes. They have to introduce the same
| safeguards that have been standard in their respective
| industries for decades. They have to raise prices. And before
| you know it, the only thing that separates them from the
| traditional companies is that stupid app.
| drzaiusapelord wrote:
| Bloat also being unionized workers who are incentivized to
| stay, gain wisdom and skills, and mentor new hires as opposed
| to the "everyone is fungible, everyone is abusable" worker
| conditions Elon seems to create.
|
| Also this war on lidar, yet we're seeing these cars crash
| into trucks and walls, which lidar would have prevented, but
| lidar costs money, and as such "is bloat." Bloat is anything
| that keeps Elon and his shareholders from enriching
| themselves to the maximum degree, and if that means customers
| have to deal with safety issues, well too bad. The Elon PR
| machine smooths it over for via marketing efforts and deep
| ties to corporate media that will sing your song for a price.
| Life goes on, except for the person killed in the car.
| chx wrote:
| Well yes and no.
|
| The app is not always stupid. I can't say I am fond of Uber
| and its business practices but in Vancouver at least the taxi
| apps are lacking some vital features Uber have -- despite
| Uber operating briefly in Vancouver in 2012 so it was clear
| they will be back and indeed in 2020 Uber/Lyft indeed
| started. Features include easy changing of pickup point which
| is quite important in the warren of one way streets where I
| live -- as I see where the car is approaching from, I can
| easily walk like 1-2 minutes to the next corner to save like
| five minutes (seriously) of driving around after pickup. Also
| it works with GPS coordinates -- when I meet with friends
| it's often at a beach on the weekend and public transit is a
| bit lacking so I prefer calling a cab/uber and it's
| practically impossible with cabs because those want a street
| address, even the app. And then there's the ability to safely
| communicate with the driver -- and this only needs wifi which
| makes airport pickups so much easier because I only need
| airport wifi. Taxi companies couldn't build these features in
| _eight years_. Pound sand.
| idop wrote:
| That's true, the apps are sometimes good and they do make
| certain things easier and more accessible than traditional
| solutions. I know I didn't mention it explicitly, but the
| "stupid app" was actually me venting my anger over the
| rampant, unnecessary tracking and snooping that these apps
| do.
| Syonyk wrote:
| > _the rampant, unnecessary tracking and snooping that
| these apps do._
|
| It's none of those, at least to them. It's literally
| their business model, and how they extract the behavioral
| surplus to turn into huge profits. And as very few people
| are aware of how it works, and why they should opt out,
| it's become the new default way of doing "tech
| companies." Extract all the stuff, process all the stuff,
| sell all the predictions from the stuff.
|
| It's not an accident that every new app seems to be
| trying to collect as much as they possibly can. You're
| not even the product - you're just the field of raw
| material they're trying to collect and process.
|
| Unfortunately, the only answer I can come up with to
| object is to opt out of all those systems, which leaves
| me a bit lacking in some areas.
| Andys wrote:
| As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need
| repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more
| with comparitively little maintenance.
|
| The throwaway effect can an does happen to any ICE vehicle
| easily, when the engine is not economic to repair. We should
| have laws covering all types and brands of vehicles to make
| them more repairable, but ultimately this should be easier with
| electric (recycling batteries in bulk is cheaper than mining
| more lithium)
| BoorishBears wrote:
| > As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need
| repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more
| with comparitively little maintenance.
|
| Can you point to a case of this?
|
| Literally written yesterday: https://jalopnik.com/one-tesla-
| model-s-has-gone-nearly-1-mil...
|
| > One Tesla Model S Has Gone Nearly 1 Million Miles And
| Needed Some Major Repairs
|
| > The owner, Hansjorg von Gemmingen-Hornberg says the car is
| on at least its third battery. The first was replaced under
| warranty at about 180,000 miles. The second was replaced
| after about 93,000 additional miles before the third battery
| was installed. So far, the Model S has done more than 621,000
| miles on that third battery.
|
| >That isn't all. The car also needed four drive motors to
| reach over 900,000 miles. The P85 has only one drive motor on
| the real axle. That means three different drive motors have
| failed.
|
| -
|
| An out of warranty battery replacement is 20k or so and drive
| motor replacement is about 10k, so I think it's safe to say
| we're talking about the equivalent cost in drivetrain
| replacements to what? 4 engines or 5 engines in an ICE?
| Assuming a rather expensive engine since the Model S is
| technically a luxury car?
|
| Not really doing any better than an ICE:
| https://www.thedrive.com/news/27940/2000-honda-accord-
| with-o...
|
| (Note all of their engine replacements combined would cost
| less in CO2 and money than a single DU swap on the Model S)
|
| Here's one with no replacements at all:
| https://www.thedrive.com/news/29982/this-2006-honda-civic-
| hi...
|
| And another with none: https://www.metrostlouis.org/news-
| release/second-metro-trans...
|
| There's more if you want to look.
|
| -
|
| Technically you can drag most modern ICEs (or any vehicle for
| that matter) along to a million miles, but different cars are
| more or less likely to make it without major issues.
|
| Tesla is not who I'm expecting to make the most million mile
| worthy EV. EVs are not some magical land compared to every
| other product in existence: Chasing new hotness so ruthlessly
| you consider model years an undue burden is not a recipe for
| a long-term reliable car.
|
| The EVs that will do 1 million miles without major work (at
| the very least not needing entire drive units) will come from
| "boring" companies with "boring" designs.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| An ICE vehicle can last 15+ years. Even more in a benign
| environment. Tesla doesn't make anything that will last that
| long.
| DenseComet wrote:
| Isn't that a function of being an EV rather than an ICE? I'd
| expect an EV from any of the traditional automakers to also
| require comparatively little maintenance.
| Syonyk wrote:
| > _As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't
| need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or
| more with comparitively little maintenance._
|
| It was a reference to an old post of mine
| (https://www.sevarg.net/2016/03/05/is-tesla-building-
| throwawa...) - and, I actually agree with you that they do
| have million-mile grade drivetrains.
|
| It's just that the rest of the car is poor quality. That's
| fine if it's cheap and easy to fix, but it's _not._ You can
| 't get the parts, you can't install the parts if you can get
| them because they have to be paired with the car, and, in
| general, they're like a lot of modern ICEs that fall apart
| around a running drivetrain. Except worse, because they're
| luxury cars and you can't even do the repair work yourself.
| jahewson wrote:
| > Not that I worry about them forgetting to put pieces in,
| either.
|
| Google suggests that you should:
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=missing+brake+pad+recall
| userbinator wrote:
| That looks like, aside from the few Tesla results, exactly
| _one_ model of Chevy was affected, and they decided to recall
| them. A missing brake pad is pretty damn obvious, and I 'm
| almost willing to bet that, unlike Tesla, they didn't ignore
| or make excuses to the people who complained about the
| strange sound. This "assume the user is completely stupid and
| we're always right" mentality seems to entirely come from the
| tech industry.
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| joezydeco wrote:
| https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna54596
|
| "General Motors knew about a defect in its ignition
| switches eight years ago and changed the design of an
| internal part, but never told federal regulators or the
| drivers of its cars, according to evidence from a recent
| lawsuit filed by the parents of a Georgia woman who died in
| a 2010 GM car crash"
| otterley wrote:
| Usually, manufacture or design defects are hidden to the
| end customer. The car was built to spec, but the spec was
| wrong; or the part supplier supplied a non-obvious faulty
| part. It's not like an obvious safety-related part is
| entirely missing.
|
| This is a very different kind of problem than leaving out
| a brake pad. It'd be like delivering a vehicle without a
| seat belt or airbag.
|
| At any rate, nobody is saying that other car
| manufacturers don't screw up. They just screw up most
| frequently. in non-obvious ways today instead of patently
| simple ones.
|
| Finally, "what about this other company/person" arguments
| aren't HN-caliber. They're not logically sound, and are
| best left at the door.
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| It's not that nobody writes the story, it's that nobody
| sees the story.
| jolux wrote:
| Nah this was all over the news. I heard about it.
| Everyone I know heard about it, especially if they're
| into cars. See also Toyota's infamous sticky accelerator
| recall, or the Takata airbag recall.
|
| The difference is that Tesla didn't have a near-perfect
| history of shipping reliable vehicles for decades before
| screwing up like this the way Toyota did. Tesla's
| reputation is slowly being formed by failures such as
| these. I already know several people who have elected to
| get a Mach-E instead of a Tesla because of concerns about
| quality. If they don't improve they're going to be seen
| (rather aptly) like the Lotus of electric cars in a few
| years: beautiful, powerful shitboxes that nobody wants to
| have to rely on as a daily driver.
| specto wrote:
| Who's fault is that? It's still news....
| ra7 wrote:
| So the car company with the most hype attracts the most
| attention? I don't see what the issue is.
| darksaints wrote:
| You were just linked to a google search full of press
| reports about a missing brake pad recall, and the entire
| front page was results about GM, and your response is that
| the press is silent as long as it's not Tesla? Seriously?
| judge2020 wrote:
| Especially because Tesla is considered some new popular
| tech company, the media is focusing on them a lot more
| compared to traditional automakers. There are hundreds of
| recalls a year[0], and yes, there are articles on most of
| them, but it's all in an attempt to capture SEO for
| 'recalls for <year make model>' and thus low-visibility;
| but any time the 'Apple of Cars' issues a recall, it
| turns into a reuters article and thus 10 other
| publications publish a story on it, where it continues to
| spread like wildfire.
|
| All recalls are warranted, even when done voluntarily for
| small manufacturing issues, but you can't deny that
| articles about Teslas having issues are guaranteed to
| generate more clicks and thus more ad revenue than one
| about some years-old Ford or GM vehicle.
|
| 0: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/
| 2020_n...
| otterley wrote:
| If Elon Musk wasn't such an asshole, he probably wouldn't
| attract extra attention in the first place. (Yet note
| that there is no quantitative evidence presented here
| that Tesla gets more attention than other manufacturers
| when defects arise.)
|
| People often make their own problems by making outrageous
| claims in the first place.
| keewee7 wrote:
| >You were just linked to a google search full of press
| reports about a missing brake pad recall
|
| I disagree with GP that the press is harsh on Tesla.
|
| However mainstream media write about everything but most
| of it has been deeply buried into their websites and will
| only be read by a few thousand people.
|
| The actual narratives the media is pushing are the
| stories you find on their frontpages and being pushed on
| their social media accounts. These are the stories that
| will be read by millions of people.
| 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
| This seems like one of those things where a tech guy thinks
| he can just come in and "disrupt things" and mistakes are
| made because they never bothered to look at what the
| incumbents were doing and why.
|
| The thing you are missing is also the frequency of
| mistakes, consistency in the vehicles in general, how well
| they manage the problem to fix it, and the number of
| defects relative to vehicles on the road. This entire
| article sounds like Google or Amazon level Don't-Give-A-
| Shit about the customer applied to cars. And some of their
| mistakes are mind boggling:
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/5/21502379/tesla-modely-
| roo...
|
| https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-owner-details-
| quali... "The main issue they have is a lack of
| consistency," Nelson said. "I could have rejected the
| delivery for not meeting my own quality standards, but a
| new car could take weeks or even months and I'd just be
| throwing the dice again. The next car could be in even
| worse shape."
|
| Thanks for getting the ball rolling Tesla, but I'll be
| waiting for the Japanese to perfect it before going
| electric.
| halfmatthalfcat wrote:
| Electric is a paradigm shift. What makes you think ICE
| manufacturers will _ever_ be able to catch Tesla?
| kristjansson wrote:
| I'll await Teslas recall of all units possibly affected by
| this issue
| AnthonyMouse wrote:
| Goalposts wherever you like.
|
| Is there even any evidence that there are any other units
| affected by this issue?
| kristjansson wrote:
| One instance is evidence their process failed at least
| once. At a minimum they need to identify the process
| failure and the cars the could have been affected, and
| issue a recall or TSB to verify none of those cars are
| missing brake pads.
| bch wrote:
| > Is there even any evidence that there are any other
| units affected by this issue?
|
| If their QC is that broken, aren't the cars that passed
| through it suspect?
|
| Edit: within a proper timeframe window.
| jolux wrote:
| It's not about the dealership model, it's about taking quality
| seriously and not just slapping things together and pushing
| them out the door with minimal QC like a software startup in a
| tight market. It's clear by now that Elon thinks it's more
| important to ship more cars than to ship quality cars, and he
| may be correct, but he also has yet to prove that he is
| actually capable of the latter.
| afarrell wrote:
| Elon's job isn't to make sure that the cars actually have
| brake pads. Elon's job is to ensure he's hiring leaders who
| won't repeatedly use racial slurs for the people whose jobs
| are to make sure the cars actually have brake pads.
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58807212
| tessierashpool wrote:
| yeah, this is within Tesla's normal QC parameters. they've had
| roofs fall off, they've had cars catch fire while parked, they
| even had a car which caught fire while self-driving in the
| middle of the night with nobody in it.
|
| just goofy bullshit. the discussion in this thread will end up
| on Elon sooner or later, but the thing to realize is that Tesla
| the company needs it that way.
|
| electric vehicles will definitely replace the ICE, but Tesla's
| not going to be Google when that happens. it'll be Alta Vista
| or even Minitel. buying one of these cars is just a much bigger
| QC gamble than it shoild be.
| ajross wrote:
| > they even had a car which caught fire while self-driving in
| the middle of the night with nobody in it.
|
| You realize that turned out to be a stunt, right? The car was
| a brand new plaid owned by a hedge fund manager who turned
| out to be heavily short TSLA. It was seized by his lawyers
| and never inspected for what the fault might have been. And
| the "driving itself on fire" story changed several times over
| the first 24 hours.
|
| One of the weirdest things about buying one of these things
| and suddenly finding myself in the culture/counterculture war
| over the brand is how suspect so much of the coverage is.
| solarkraft wrote:
| Actually the Google comparison fits quite well. They also
| frequently deliver sub-par software while still having an
| over-all hard to beat ecosystem.
| foepys wrote:
| The only reason why Tesla hates dealerships is because they
| don't want to pay them, full stop. All those horrors can also
| happen without dealerships, see above.
|
| Tesla wants people to pay the sticker price without being able
| to haggle and wants to keep all the profits for itself.
|
| VW can deliver EVs for a similar price even with a dealership
| network. Although, they also started to block haggling by
| demanding customers to place their orders online via their car
| configurator. As long as you sell it as innovation, people will
| jump on it, even if this innovation is costing them more money.
| fallingknife wrote:
| You think haggling is going to come out in your favor? The
| dealership does it every day.
| foepys wrote:
| If that's the case, why should auto makers now demand you
| pay sticker price? Public companies don't do anything in
| your favor, ever. It's always because they think that they
| can now extract even more money from you.
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| At the moment it's hard enough to get hold of a car even if
| you walk in with the money to pay for it. As such, haggling
| is unlikely to work. At other times when the dealers are
| desperate to make a specific quota a good deal is more
| likely.
| Retric wrote:
| Because clearly all the people working at a dealership plus
| all the capital tied up in a dealership has no economic
| downsides.
|
| It turns out dealerships don't extract equivalent money from
| every customer. It's not about haggling skills it's simply a
| question of leverage on the part of a dealership. If they
| both have plenty of inventory and know you're happy to walk
| somewhere else then they will take their thin slice of the
| transaction and move on. If however inventory is tight or
| your unlikely to walk then prepared to get screwed.
|
| It's not even about credit or haggling skills, plenty of
| seriously up market dealerships for exotics financially screw
| their customers on a regular basis.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| The dealership system is to provide assurance to the buyer
| that a corporate entity under the authority of the state's
| regulators and law enforcement officers but also available
| to sell parts, perform warranty service, and repair the
| vehicle.
|
| A dealer being willing to sell a company's cars serves as
| some assurance that the car manufacturer is stable,
| reputable, etc.
|
| This all came into being during the big automotive industry
| boom in the 20's when car frames/powertrains were made by
| manufacturers and then a "coachworks" company would put a
| body on that..and both powertrain and coachwork companies
| were often in business just long enough to get some cars
| out the door before customers discovered poor workmanship,
| assemblies not designed to be repaired, non-standard
| fastener sizes and so on. It was common for people to buy a
| car, drive it home several states away (in an age where
| there was no interstate highway system!) and discover that
| their car was falling apart.
|
| Oh hey, what does Tesla have problems with? Poor parts
| availability, warranty issues, long waits for repairs...
|
| I wish I were exaggerating when I say Tesla was telling
| Model S owners that water getting inside the main drive
| unit (which contains not just the electric motor but the
| motor's power electronics) because of a faulty seal on a
| speed sensor _was the customer 's fault because they drove
| the car in heavy rain_.
|
| There is little distinguishing Elon Musk from the shysters
| in the 1920's that all these pesky regulations were written
| to address.
| bfung wrote:
| Any reference materials / history on car dealerships and
| how they're part of the ecosystem?
|
| When I was writing software for dealership stocking (19
| years ago now), it was pretty clear to me that there's no
| good reason dealerships exist, as states could also make
| laws that covered the manufacturer.
|
| It made sense when manufacturers didn't know how to scale
| out end consumer services, like marketing, financing,
| repair, etc. But now in the 2000s and 2020s, all the
| manufacturers have their own distribution and financing
| arm as well.
|
| It turns out that people want to buy from manufacturers:
| "it's a Ford dealership", "it's a Toyota dealership" as
| opposed to "it's bfung's cars". The extra indirection and
| separation of legal entities actually make a worse user
| experience.
|
| In addition, to be able to use the manufacturer's brand,
| the dealerships new car pricing are all subject to the
| manufacturer, so no arbitrage opportunities can be made,
| except for getting suckers. The incentives of the
| dealership has skewed toward pushing services and used
| cars as that's where they make money now.
| judge2020 wrote:
| For reference, here's the markups dealerships have put on
| the F150 lightning's MSRP to make some extra cash.
|
| https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vQQEE
| 7Pk... (from reddit https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehi
| cles/comments/rm7v8j/ev... )
| eptcyka wrote:
| VW is a bad example because their EV lineup is full of
| horribly inefficient cars with pathological infotainment
| systems. And, from the looks of them, it seems like the
| bespoke EV platform is a vague rehash of an existing ICE
| platform given how the extra space an EV platform could allow
| for isn't being utilized.
|
| Have no illusions though, I wouldn't buy a tesla either.
| gnicholas wrote:
| Can you explain more about how their EVs are inefficient?
| Do you mean miles traveled per charge time, or something
| else?
| nebula8804 wrote:
| Sounds like he has been watching Sandy Munro who has
| complained about the VW ID 4 not being up to par with
| Tesla in terms of efficient design.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4zu46ojkbo
| eptcyka wrote:
| I'll gladly eat my own words. I had seen some video
| reviews of the ID.4 and the ID.3 on youtube complaining
| about getting far less range than what was advertised,
| but seemingly the advertised range and stated battery
| capacities seem to indicate that the VW EVs are just as
| efficient as Teslas are.
| xyst wrote:
| If other manufacturers adopt the direct to consumer model, they
| need to take note of how bad TSLA has executed. What a terrible
| customer experience. Then TSLA reps have the gall to gaslight
| this person saying it's normal.
|
| TSLA as a speculative instrument for trading is fine. But I am
| avoiding them as a consumer.
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