[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Mistakes working with small local clients?
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Ask HN: Mistakes working with small local clients?
Hi, so I have been working with some very small local
clients/businesses developing them websites and custom made
internal software/tools and also providing hosting and support.
What are some mistakes you have made down the road and what advice
would you give to someone that just started?
Author : psikomanjak
Score : 74 points
Date : 2022-01-13 15:12 UTC (7 hours ago)
| popemarijuanaxv wrote:
| Everything about working with small local clients is a mistake.
| I'm sorry, but it is. If you must, be very clear about what done
| means. Be very clear about who is responsible for maintenance
| after your job is done. If you don't, you will still get calls 8
| years later to update the prices on the website, etc. Invoice
| absolutely everything. If you feel like a client is trying to get
| away with something, use an invoice to clarify that they can do
| so at X cost. I once billed someone $30,000 for an website
| update. I didn't get paid, but I never heard from them again. And
| by all means, don't work where you live. Ditto re:
| family/friend/friend of friends. Just don't. No money here. I
| dunno, just everything about this clientele screams avoid to me,
| especially their near complete inability to understand how much
| education goes into being able to do the sorts of things we can
| do with software, and therefore unable to understand why it costs
| so much or why they should pay even a 10th of it. Trying to pull
| money out of a small business is often tantamount to teeth-
| pulling, and a very large majority of small business owners work
| for themselves because no one wants anything to do with them, so
| choose who you work for very carefully. Sorry to spook you. Can
| you tell I've enjoyed my time in this space?
| tlogan wrote:
| This is very much spot on.
|
| And you will find that some of these "small business" are
| actually failure and they are alive just because somebody else
| in the family is paying the bills.
| scrozier wrote:
| I have spent a good deal of my career trying to figure this
| out. I love small businesses and not-for-profits (not to muddy
| the waters, but they pose similar challenges). I've reached the
| same conclusion as you. To a small business, every dollar is
| critical, so they are compelled to micromanage. Many small
| business owners are very smart, but not well educated, so they
| tend to lack some perspective and try to substitute their
| "street smarts," which doesn't work very well with
| technical/creative work. As much as I'd love to serve this
| market, I've never figured it out.
| mgkimsal wrote:
| > To a small business, every dollar is critical, so they are
| compelled to micromanage.
|
| We'd need to define 'small business' size, but more
| importantly, who you're working with. Working with the
| _owner_ of a small business... every dollar effectively comes
| out of their pocket (at least, that may be the mentality).
| Working with a small business that has enough folks to have a
| team, they 're more likely to have some actual budget to work
| with that isn't 'their' money. They have to achieve business
| goals and have money to spend.
|
| Who you're working with and how small 'small' is are the
| critical factors, I've found.
| scrozier wrote:
| Absolutely. I was talking about what would probably be
| called "very small businesses," in which I was almost
| always working directly with the owner. Probably in the
| range of 5-50 employees. 300bps has an interesting take on
| the size issue, elsewhere in the comments.
| vector_spaces wrote:
| There are very intelligent people out there who aren't software
| engineers or who don't work for Fortune 500s. The logistical
| challenges that go into operating a small e.g. grocery store
| probably vastly outweigh whatever a typical FAANG or YC startup
| engineer has to contend with.
|
| People start businesses for lots of reasons, and if you've
| built a small business that's been around for more than several
| years, in a lot of industries, that means that you know how to
| work with people. The food business in particular is that way
| -- if you can't build good relationships with your suppliers
| and customers, you're dead.
|
| I agree with your overall point that, if you're looking to
| optimize your payday, working with small businesses probably
| isn't the way. But it can still be fulfilling and reasonably
| lucrative.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > The logistical challenges that go into operating a small
| e.g. grocery store probably vastly outweigh whatever a
| typical FAANG or YC startup engineer has to contend with.
|
| Doing in a scalable way sure. Grocery margins are razor thin.
|
| Doing it at a loss or break-even by working 80+ hours a week
| understaffed no, everyone can do that.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Eh, unless it is a niche grocery store, every actually
| independent grocery store I have visited has had limited
| selection and mouldy fruit.
|
| I don't think anyone disputes that running a small business
| is hard. It is just that most don't do a terribly good job of
| it.
| radu_floricica wrote:
| It all probably boils down to you being of less value to
| smaller clients than to larger ones. Software and web are a
| force multiplier. They don't produce value on their own, they
| just increase what's already there. If a new, better website
| can get the client a 20% better conversion rate, or if a new
| software will decrease their costs by 5% - that can be
| dramatically different in CorpX and in Ma&Pa.
|
| The multiplier itself can't be dramatically different - you
| can't write software that'll bring a 99% decrease in costs. But
| the base that you're multiplying can easily be 100x larger
| (10000%). That's the value you're creating, some part of which
| is your fair share.
|
| So how to successfully sell to small clients? The correct
| answer is "en masse". The only way to make up for the
| difference in productivity is with numbers - you don't write
| custom software, you make a product and sell it to thousands
| and more.
|
| Small clients simply should never work with service providers
| directly - they just waste time that'd better be spent by
| making a bigger client 0.1% more efficient. I know that's the
| opposite of what idealism would say, but it's true. The
| _smaller_ cost for society is burned out and pissed off
| developers. The real one is the opportunity cost of what they
| could have been doing instead.
| jpm_sd wrote:
| Yeah this is why small businesses have all ended up on Facebook
| and, to a lesser extent, Squarespace. Big players providing a
| consistent service with a simple interface is going to win
| every time.
| josefresco wrote:
| The "fabled" small biz move to Facebook happened 4-5 years
| ago and has since shift back. During that time, I'd hear
| warnings (much to my enjoyment) that my job would be in
| jeopardy. Things are shifting back now, hard. I've had
| clients stop posting to social media, and instead are
| reinvesting in their website, which they control 100%. The
| social media shine has warn off for small biz - it's just
| another marketing channel and one you don't control.
| teddyh wrote:
| Yes: https://theoatmeal.com/comics/reaching_people_2021
| disease wrote:
| I've sometimes wondered why so many restaurants (even some
| chains) don't have any kind of online presence outside of a
| crappy HTML 'poster' that tells the world they exist. No
| delivery. No online orders. Seems like a missed opportunity.
|
| Then I remember that it is an industry with tiny margins and
| remember my past work with small clients and come up with a
| similar list of thoughts that you have outlined here.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| The restaurant industry has a scary number of people who just
| toss their retirement savings into it and treat it as a
| retirement hobby. Then they get slowly bled dry.
| josefresco wrote:
| There are web firms that work solely with restaurants. I've
| lost a couple clients to them. The come in with a slick sales
| pitch, and sell restaurant owners on the idea that "their
| menu will be everywhere!". This particular example actually
| builds decent websites, but what sold my (former) client on
| it was their tech surrounding menu distribution. Where do
| these menus appear? No clue.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Yes, small businesses have been left behind. Almost
| completely abandoned by tech. The only progress has been
| those shitty web based payment terminals with scant support
| for inventory and e-commerce.
| gwbrooks wrote:
| Meta-mistake that covers most small clients: Don't do business
| with people who are writing you a check out of their own pocket.
| Prospects that have a professional manager and a budget are a lot
| less hassle than Ed and Enid, who have to buy cheaper hamburger
| this month if they pay your invoice.
|
| Related: Admin and client hand-holding eat all the things;
| consider having fewer/larger clients.
|
| No matter what size your clients, don't sell one-off websites.
| Sell either a package of annual services or flat-out rent them a
| website you own.
|
| Clients are never happier than at the moment of delivery; that's
| the time to ask for referrals.
|
| You can almost never meaningfully raise your rates with a long-
| term client so start with high rates.
|
| Related: There's no reason in the world every client needs the
| same rate. The same piece of work you do may solve a $50k problem
| for one client and a $5 million problem for another; why would
| you charge them the same?
|
| I've seen some comments about providing as much detail as
| possible in invoicing, time tracking, etc. That's one way to do
| it but, in my experience, small clients want simplicity. Flat
| rate for a fixed scope, no time tracking and a one-line invoice.
| Overtonwindow wrote:
| Very early in my career, I found working with local clients can
| be vastly improved by having a detailed scope of work,
| milestones, expectations, and budget. Never enough detail. I
| found being local to clients creates a relationship very
| different from distant clients, and anything you can do to build
| trust, transparency, etc. ahead of the work, the better. The more
| detailed my scope of work, the less scope creep I had.
| nicbou wrote:
| I did this in college. It was one of my favourite jobs. I learned
| a lot about business during that time.
|
| 1. Competing on price. Stingy clients are very demanding.
|
| 2. Competing tasks rather than solving problems. You should see
| the look on their face when you take a minute to fix some random
| IT problem.
|
| 3. Not having a clear scope for larger projects. I was lucky but
| some of my friends had long stressful months because of it.
| Humans and developers have differing ideas of what "finished"
| means.
|
| 4. Hosting clients. The responsibility is not worth the money. At
| some point you might want to do something else and you'll be
| stuck with lots of clients who depend on you.
|
| In the long run small clients are not sustainable. Big clients
| pay better and more consistently.
| scrozier wrote:
| Your point about learning about business is spot on. I feel
| like I got an MBA in entrepreneurship early on, by doing this
| kind of work. That said, it's a very rough way to make a
| living.
| convolvatron wrote:
| #1 really resonates. I really actually like of like working for
| a less ludicrous rate and doing real work for real people and
| adding clear value.
|
| but the lower the rate the more headache. the more arguments
| about billing. the more unpaid favors they try to pile on. the
| harder the deadlines. the more they insist that somehow they
| are being cheated. the more likely that their 'project' is
| really a random assemblage of half-finished stuff from prior
| developers they pissed off. the more likely they are going to
| 'pivot' and change the whole engagement or just disappear.
| 300bps wrote:
| Many years ago I was a self-employed consultant that did work for
| a lot of small/medium sized clients.
|
| I would never want to do that again. The size of the client
| determines how much money they have to pay you before you owe
| them your first born child.
|
| Level 1 - Home Users. If they pay you $100, you better answer
| their calls within 30 seconds on a Sunday.
|
| Level 2 - Up to 10 employees. $1,000.
|
| Level 3 - 11 to 500 employees. $10,000.
|
| Level 4 - 500 to 1,000 employees. $50,000.
|
| Level 5 - 1,001+ employees. They just don't care. They can pay
| you $500,000 or even millions and if it blows up in their face
| they'll chalk it up as a "learning lesson".
| geocrasher wrote:
| This is so true!
| newaccount74 wrote:
| I once did some consulting work for a funded startup, for me it
| was the biggest contract I ever had (about $20k) and the
| project didn't really work out, but they didn't care and just
| paid my invoice. It was so nice to be treated like a
| professional.
|
| On the other hand, small clients who paid $2k for something
| kept coming back with revision requests...
| rossdavidh wrote:
| 1. pay as you go (much more likely than a larger client to
| actually not have the money even though they thought they would,
| or to go out of business entirely with little notice) 2. they
| don't have as much experience with how tech projects go, so you
| need to manage expectations more
| CaptainJustin wrote:
| The following is my opinion. Others may have a different take on
| these ideas.
|
| - Not charging enough from the start. Two clients accepted my
| rate way too fast.
|
| - Giving time estimates for every piece of work rather than price
| estimates. Price estimates allow to you to charge for the value
| you provide rather than being limited to the negotiated hourly
| rate. Some tasks take a great deal of expertise and provide
| massive value but take only a short time. Don't bill them by the
| minute for that. Bill by value.
|
| - Limit the number of changes they can make after completing a
| task or charge per hour after initial delivery. Some clients will
| take every opportunity to tweak something. It never ends. If that
| is happening on your (unbilled) time then your effective rate is
| falling with every new "quick change".
|
| - Don't hand over work until the payment experience for a new
| client looks to be in good faith, regular and business usual.
| I've heard a few stories from friends about serial-exploiters who
| churn through freelancers trying to get most of the work done for
| free.
| alserio wrote:
| The effort required for the maintenance of many small projects is
| way more than that required for a big project with the same total
| cost. Customization of a product doesn't scale very well with
| time
| chaircher wrote:
| Be in tune with your local community. I get wind of problem
| clients AND problem partners or suppliers long before we're even
| on each others' radar.
|
| Try and surround yourself with people you trust so when someone
| says "xxxxxx is super unprofessional" you know they're being
| legit and they're not just trying to cover their own back or
| running saboutage.
|
| My main mistake was not paying attention to adjacent businesses
| and underestimating how destructive they can be. Who's in your
| office block? Who did you graduate with? Try and identify problem
| people in these groups and pivot away from them
| runako wrote:
| In addition to the excellent points made by others, I would add:
|
| 1. Not using a real contract. Get something like hellobonsai.com
| if you don't have an attorney, but use a real contract. You're
| (probably) not going to end up in court, but if you do you will
| be glad you have a contract that lawyers understand.
|
| 1a. Not being very specific in the scope of work. The scope of
| work must be referenced in the contract, and you must keep it up
| to date by adding additional scope as appropriate. In case of
| confusion or dispute, you can always refer the client back to the
| discussion you had about the scope of work and remind them that
| they signed off on it (yes, make them actually sign off on it).
|
| 2. Not collecting a deposit up front. Depending on the size of
| the client, 50% of the first month's fees in advance might be
| appropriate. More might be smart, depending on the client. This
| is also a good qualifying step to filter out clients that only
| think they can afford your work. You then invoice as normal, with
| the goal of keeping the amount in retainer constant (FIFO for
| money). If you don't do this, you will eventually have to eat a
| $5k or $10k invoice that you need to pay your own bills. Better
| to use the customer's financial reserves than yours.
|
| 3. Working with very small local clients at all. Working
| primarily with very small clients is a very risky way to run your
| business. If you insist, the absolute bare minimum you must do is
| have a real contract and collect a significant deposit up front.
| TheSpiciestDev wrote:
| Note: my income has never been dependent on local/small clients
| (small being <10 employees) such work has always been "extra
| income" for me or to build relationships with others.
|
| I've fixed bugs for free (if I failed to interpret requirements
| or made a mistake) but otherwise I would offer change orders for
| anything outside the agreed scope. Depending on the changes or
| how they fit into the existing work, these would possibly be
| discounted or free, especially if they are made early enough.
|
| That said, I've been solid and explicit in the agreed scope. This
| goes for every project or org/client, don't get me wrong, but
| I've found this is much more important with smaller orgs/clients.
|
| Otherwise there are a lot of great suggestions already made
| elsewhere in these threads. I haven't really ever had issues
| getting paid. I believe having a clear scope and asking
| clarifying questions also builds a better relationship (which I
| think contributes to better engagements, reduces other headaches,
| and leads to referrals!)
| kazz wrote:
| Lot of good points already, but one that I've learned the hard
| way is never take on a "family" business as a client. You know
| the type of company where one brother is the CEO, another brother
| is the marketing director, random husbands and wives work for the
| company, etc.
|
| I've never had a relationship with a family business last beyond
| the scope of the initial project. Things always fall apart
| because of family infighting, or because every business decision
| ends up being way too personal/emotional for them. It's never
| worth the hassle, trust me.
| josefresco wrote:
| 45% of my clients are family businesses. That's a huge segment
| of the market to ignore (at your own peril). Family businesses
| can be great because they can be honest with each other, and
| move quickly. They can also be insane, but so can normal
| clients. I've worked with over a hundred family owned, multi-
| generational businesses.
| geocrasher wrote:
| +1 to this. The worst ever. I worked as a W2 employee for a
| company like this and it was the most chaotic 5 months of my
| career.
| zerkten wrote:
| The other posts so far cover all the immediate mistakes I've seen
| first hand. If you can use new tech on these jobs it'll also keep
| your skills up. If you are banging out similar things with the
| same tech it can be stagnating.
|
| I'd ask yourself if your goal is to keep working with small
| clients, or pivot to making products for this audience? It's good
| experience and satisfying to be doing what you are doing, but it
| can be limiting over the long-term if you are the one doing all
| the work with limited reuse. As life changes you may find that
| it's a struggle to work with small clients and having a product,
| or something that's largely a product, will help you be able to
| put things on autopilot.
|
| Good luck!
| honkycat wrote:
| When I opened a consulting firm, the biggest mistakes we made
| were always about saying yes instead of no:
|
| 1. Taking on clients who did not have their shit together. They
| were always high maintenance, never satisfied with the work, and
| constantly trying to make huge changes.
|
| 2. Taking on work that was beyond our ability to deliver on.
|
| 3. The single biggest mistake we made was partnering with another
| firm who we let do discover and planning for us. They sent us
| over a client we were contractually obligated to do development
| work for, and two screenshots of a "website" and told to "have
| fun." IT WAS A NIGHTMARE.
|
| We once had a client, after we finished their website, ask: "OK,
| so now how do I make money off this?" and I was like... dude...
| that is not our job. That is yours.
|
| Another client had a really ambitious and fun project that
| included the need to develop 4g connected cameras and computer
| vision. I voted NO on the project. I felt like we did not have
| the expertise or the resources to take on the project in a way I
| felt comfortable with.
|
| My partners disagreed, and I was out-voted. This is what incited
| me to sell them my share of the company and leave. Honestly I'm
| not really sure how that project went. Maybe it was fine, who
| knows.
| xupybd wrote:
| For small internal tools make sure you understand the business
| domain. Learn as much as you can about the process you're writing
| software for. Prioritize error handling over looks.
|
| Set expectations. Small businesses often expect you can do more
| for less. You're the expert you tell them how long something will
| take, don't allow them to set the expectation. Breakdown why it
| will take that sort of time.
|
| Keep all solutions as simple as possible. If you have an internal
| tool that only one or two administrators use, then chances are
| you don't need user management. Have one password to secure the
| app, or make it a desktop app. Maybe you don't need a GUI to
| report on data, could a monthly report emailed from the system do
| the same job at half the development time?
|
| The sales team will want reports on everything and can chew lots
| of time. Chances are management doesn't want this. Try to give
| data to them in Excel so they can manipulate the data.
| eappleby wrote:
| Bite your tongue. I have worked with a fair amount of small
| websites and they can be the most demanding of your time, so it
| is important to set expectations and boundries, but even when
| they ask questions or make requests that seem unnecessary, I'd
| recommend that you do not be flippant or condescending in your
| replies. When I was first starting my business, I did this one
| time with a very small client and it led to a small wave of
| cancellation from other, bigger clients.
| JSeymourATL wrote:
| Missed opportunity: Not leveraging the work into repeatable,
| predictable revenue.
|
| The Challenge finding 'Good Clients', the ones who respect and
| appreciate what you do. The ones who pay well and on-time.
|
| Which is to say, learn how to qualify a good potential client
| upfront. Don't be afraid to turn down opportunities that don't
| match-up.
| mathattack wrote:
| There is a lot to be said about small clients being
| disproportionately less lucrative than large ones. (Large ones
| are used to higher rates and additional pay for scope changes)
|
| Getting past that, beyond what's already been eloquently said by
| others...
|
| 1 - Be explicit in writing about favors. ("I am doing this beyond
| the contract because...")
|
| 2 - If you turn a personal relationship into a business
| relationship, you may lose the personal relationship if the
| business side goes bad.
|
| 3 - Diversify so you can afford to lose any one client.
|
| 4 - Don't be afraid to ask your worth. "Yes, $125/hr is fair,
| since it's already a discount from the $150/hr that BigCo paid,
| and I have to fund my benefits and downtime" (Set your rate based
| on what else you would do with that time rather than by what they
| claim to be able to afford)
|
| 4.5 - Bump the rate dramatically for small chunks of time.
| tommiegannert wrote:
| 4.5 sounds similar to just having a high minimum billing
| period. Over on Reddit, I heard of people using one day as the
| smallest billing period. To avoid all the small requests.
|
| (I'm not a freelancer, and have no opinions of my own about
| it.)
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| Never ever do anything for free. Ever. Once you open that door
| you are screwed.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| My biggest mistake: Doing things for free as a favor because you
| are reluctant to charge . Even if it feels weird always get paid
| for your work. Your local plumber or lawyer also don't do things
| for free. You are running a business and not a friendship.
| eatonphil wrote:
| I did this for a bit and gave up. While you have a lot of freedom
| doing this it's just really risky working with small local
| companies. They are highly sensitive to price. In contrast one of
| the easiest/chillest ways to contract is to do by-the-hour for
| small software companies. They are not as sensitive to price
| because almost any rate you charge them under some amoung (say
| $150/hr doing 20-30 hours/week) is less than they'd pay for an
| experienced salaried dev when you include healthcare and all
| other costs for fulltime employees. And they can drop you
| whenever and vice versa.
|
| The big challenge I have is breaking into project-based work for
| good companies. Getting paid by the hour is easy and pays work
| but is really tiresome. You can't scale your work if you get paid
| by the hour. The only way to scale is getting paid by the project
| and taking more projects on (and eventually hiring people).
| Arcanum-XIII wrote:
| 1. Don't let the customer decide the deadline. 2. Don't accept to
| work for a fixed fee on code you don't own. It's per day or per
| week... and no promise. 3. Don't answer the customer outside your
| open office hour. Put some strict limits about your availability.
| 4. Rise your fee. As others already wrote here, the smaller the
| customer, the higher they will feel entitled about your work. 5.
| Have a written contract. Don't accept close you don't like
| because "we never use them". 6. Be annoying about the description
| of the job, and the definition of done.
| josefresco wrote:
| I was a partner at a local web agency for 7 years. I have been
| running my own agency for 15 years. I've worked with hundreds of
| small local clients. I've launched hundreds of websites, small
| software projects as well as worked with these clients on
| marketing etc. I will be doing this for at least another 5 years.
| I'm successful, but I'm not rich. I work with my wife (who
| probably represents 65% of our revenue - she rocks), I've had
| employees in the past but currently don't and don't want them.
|
| If you want to chat, drop me an email (email in HN bio)
|
| 1. Don't take on new services outside your wheelhouse just
| because "you can" which is common in tech.
|
| 2. Don't charge clients using confusing terms.
|
| 3. Get money up front, don't waste your time with people who want
| work on spec or propose weird payments terms.
|
| 4. Don't hole up and avoid your phone/email.
|
| 5. Don't be inconsistent. Have regular hours, pick up the phone,
| answer your emails and stick to it! Your local reputation will
| build and competitors will come and go.
|
| 6. Working with a board of directors or a website "committee" is
| ALWAYS a nightmare. Price accordingly.
|
| 7. Town/gov projects are a giant pain, but can mean solid
| recurring revenue.
|
| 8. Don't waste time on huge RFPs. The longer the RFP, the less
| time I invest!
|
| 9. Be weary of an entrenched local competitor who wants to "help
| you". I had a "retiring" competitor send me his worst clients and
| he didn't retire.
|
| 10. If your fees are low, the clients that hire you at that low
| rate will never accept a higher rate.
|
| 11. F*ck your NDA! Sorry this isn't Reddit, but avoid signing any
| and all non-disclosure agreements.
|
| 12. Having an office helps. We started at home, and for 6 years
| worked "virtually". Meeting with local clients was a pain so we
| got an office. Huge difference in perception. I still like
| working from home better, but having the space to meet and
| impress benefits greatly (you can charge more).
|
| Final note: All my clients are business owners. It's really
| rewarding and enlightening to work with them. I learn so much,
| and teach them so much. The relationships I've made will last for
| years/decades. Also, after 21 years I can't wait to... not have
| clients!!!
| h2odragon wrote:
| Be clear about the licenses / ownership of code you develop; a
| small business might not care but they still should. If you're
| developing _their code_ do it hourly or by contract; if you 're
| licensing them an instance of _your_ code then you can invest
| more in it if you feel it worthwhile.
|
| No one is small enough not to need written terms.
| outsidetheparty wrote:
| The "working with small local clients at all is the mistake" part
| is already well-covered, so I'll add a secondary rule:
|
| Don't custom-build complicated websites for small local clients.
| Just don't. Most of them won't be able to maintain it over time -
| 90% of the time, even if they think they need and can afford your
| bespoke solution, what they _actually_ need is a simple hosted
| wix or squarespace instance or equivalent -- it may not look
| exactly like they imagine, but they'll be able to modify it and
| improve it and actually keep using it. Your bespoke solution is
| going to fall apart the first time they tweak something and hit a
| trivial syntax error they're not equipped to repair.
|
| Scale the complexity of the solution to the capabilities of the
| client who's paying for it.
| darau1 wrote:
| "If it isn't in writing, it wasn't said". This is true no matter
| the size of the client. This is even part of an internal MOU at
| my current employer lol
| subpixel wrote:
| The mistake is to work for a small client instead of talking to
| dozens and building something that suits their needs that can
| also be sold to thousands via a platform or theme marketplace.
|
| Build storemapper.com not a feature that does the same thing for
| one or two clients.
| xtiansimon wrote:
| Treat customers like their time is valuable--keep it short and
| sweet and to the point. Many small businesses owners are very
| busy.
| geocrasher wrote:
| I did web design and hosting for several in the early 2000's back
| in the web 1.0 days. Don't wait on the customer to meet
| deadlines. I'd ask the customer to give me something for their
| 'about us' page, and it would _never_ happen. So I just started
| writing them myself. It worked out much better.
|
| Also don't leave anything to chance. Lay everything out
| explicitly. When the work is done, and they agree, then let them
| know that everything after this point is billable. Sign on it.
| You _will_ get nickel and dimed to death otherwise!
|
| Lastly: https://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell <-- truth.
| Stronico wrote:
| I've done a fair amount of that - some mistakes I've made -
|
| 1. Not getting money up front
|
| 2. Extending credit
|
| 3. Open ended meetings
|
| 4. Being insufficiently explicit about what is being delivered
|
| 5. Working on a handshake (seldom a problem with big clients
| actually) - get them to sign something
|
| 6. Not actually meeting in person at least once
|
| 7. Not being clear on who owns the code/technology (if you're
| going to do more or less the same thing for the person across the
| street then make sure to let the client know that they are
| getting a license (or something similar))
|
| 8. Scheduling meetings in their downtime, but your worktime
|
| 9. Not having a template, or even an idea of what a good referral
| would look like
|
| 10. Having a specified finish line - much more important for the
| smaller client than the larger ones IME
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| Let's say I write some JS widgets and want to reuse them on
| multiple sites. What kind of license do you recommend? It's not
| open source, but is there a good boilerplate for this kind of
| thing? Or a question-tree like GitHub's pick an open source
| license, but for non-open source?
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Don't mess with licenses. Just keep the copyright with the
| code in the project. They have your permission to use the
| widget (implied license, basically), so they're in the clear,
| but they won't be able to distribute it beyond what you've
| allowed, legally.
| hogrider wrote:
| Not an expert, but going back to basics you only license
| things you own. So if they will retain the IP you don't
| license anything.
| alex_c wrote:
| Spot on. Only thing I would add is
|
| 11. Invoice frequently, on schedule, like clockwork. Drop
| anyone who doesn't pay on time.
|
| 12. If you are doing them any "favours" for any reason
| (discounts, work you might do but don't charge for), put it on
| the invoice.
| eatonphil wrote:
| I didn't understand your point 12 at first but I think you
| mean that you should always write down in the invoice what
| you did for free so that the client is always in the loop
| about all the work you do (whether you bill for it or not).
| That makes a ton of sense. Easy for humble people to not
| think of. Better to keep everything in the open.
| alex_c wrote:
| Yeah, it's about setting and managing expectations. Small
| favours can help build relationships, discounts can help
| close a deal, and so on. Less relevant for larger clients,
| but may be necessary when working with smaller clients.
|
| Writing it down can be the difference between the client
| thinking "I understand what you did there is a one-off
| favour and I appreciate it", versus the client taking it
| for granted as something normal and always expecting it in
| the future at no cost / discounted cost.
| tedmcory77 wrote:
| Yes, you don't negotiate from a discount. By putting this
| on there you're showing that they are already getting a
| discount; when they ask for more you'll be able to
| highlight the stuff you've already done for free.
| taxcoder wrote:
| You can do twice as much work as you bill for, but if you
| don't somehow show the client it's all for nothing. You get
| no goodwill, which is typically what businesses are looking
| for when they do free work. I try to always show any extra
| work done and what it would have cost on the invoice.
| DarylZero wrote:
| Put what you did with a price attached. On a separate line
| put a discount for that much money (with reason for
| discount if you want). So instead of "what you did for
| free" it's quantified $X discount.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Which is another way of saying "Don't do anything for
| free" or "There's a big difference between $1 and $0."
|
| If there's a line item you're charging them, and then a
| credit, it's apparent to everyone that your work has
| value. If it's just missing... then the value can be
| forgotten much more easily.
| ksdale wrote:
| I'm not the parent poster, but I have always found that, to
| an extent, the more detail you put on the invoice, the
| better. There are some people who seem absolutely compelled
| to say "but you only did x" if they only see one thing on
| the invoice, no matter how involved that one thing is. Next
| piece of advice is to fire anyone who questions the price
| (at least more than once maybe...)
| josefresco wrote:
| > Invoice frequently, on schedule, like clockwork. Drop
| anyone who doesn't pay on time.
|
| THIS. We bill monthly but sometimes I'll hold a project that
| isn't complete. BIG MISTAKE and my wife who's the CFO reminds
| my everytime she "finds" time logged from 6 months ago that
| was never billed. I'm better now, but the business world
| works on a schedule, your billing should too!
| alex_c wrote:
| I will admit it took me an embarrassingly long time to
| learn this lesson and become disciplined enough to do it.
|
| But it really is better for everyone involved, clients
| don't like late or unpredictable invoices either!
| josefresco wrote:
| Detaching emotion from billing is important. Sometimes I
| would hesitate to bill because of a recent bug or
| miscommunication. Hug error on my part. Everyone gets
| billed every month no matter that status of your project.
| I also will bill some clients EARLY if I'm concerned,
| they won't pay or will balk.
| electric_mayhem wrote:
| Pretty much all of this.
| Karawebnetwork wrote:
| Soft skills are more important than technical skills. Set the
| tone of the relationship from the beginning. Don't let the client
| gradually become your boss; chances are they are used to being in
| a leadership position and you are used to being an employee. This
| can quickly fester and have a negative effect on the outcome of
| your project.
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