[HN Gopher] More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowe...
___________________________________________________________________
More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in
50 years
Author : Takizawamura
Score : 424 points
Date : 2022-01-13 12:33 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
| eljimmy wrote:
| I checked the tuition fees for my university CS degree and it's
| now just over $10,000 CAD per year for a bachelor. That's
| actually not that bad of an increase considering I was paying
| around $6,000 CAD about 15 years ago.
|
| I presume there are cheap colleges and universities in the states
| as well that are just as educational as the big name schools.
| wintermutestwin wrote:
| My kids are going to college in an EU country where their BA
| degrees take three years, but each class is related to their
| major. In the US, our inane curriculum wastes two years retaking
| general ed classes that they should have learned in HS.
|
| Borrowing to pay tuition to take general ED classes is dumb, and
| yet, this is the path that is pushed on our best and brightest.
|
| At the least, kids should gen ed in Community College. At the
| best, we should reform or horrible curriculum.
| songzme wrote:
| Universities are places where you go for intellectual pursuit of
| your interests, which is why majors like "study of russian
| history", "Anthropology And Archeology" exists. The major may be
| useless for employment, but the study helps preserve history and
| can be very interesting for the students who are passionate about
| it.
|
| Somehow, society wrongly started associating universities for
| corporate job preparation.
|
| I think people are starting to realize that if you want to get
| prepared for work, you should go to a trade training (like
| bootcamps). If you are priviledged enough to pursue your
| interests, then universities are a great place to be.
| awb wrote:
| I've been recruiting for US startups since 2008, probably
| recruited over 100 folks from engineers to C-level.
|
| I have never considered a candidate's college or if they even
| attended one. The only thing I evaluated is what they
| accomplished in the last 1-2 years. That meant hiring some
| brilliant engineers straight out of high school.
|
| Most of these candidates were early stage hires for dozens of
| companies that went on to become billion dollar public companies
| or get acquired for 8-10 figures.
|
| As far as a springboard for a career, I haven't seen colleges
| come close to worth the price of admission.
|
| Almost your entire career value is dependent on how well you can
| self-learn and self-motivate. The one important piece that school
| might teach or give you exposure to is how to collaborate
| effectively with others.
| netsec_burn wrote:
| I can attest to universities not being useful for helping you
| get in to a career, besides resume writing. I attended one
| career fair sponsored by a university I attended. There were
| about 60 different booths, and two of them were tech companies.
| The first offered 40k/yr. They had already reached out to me
| prior to the career fair and I declined to move cities for a
| 40k/yr position, there were plenty of state jobs paying that.
| The second was Amazon. I asked if they had any SWE roles. They
| said there were only warehouse jobs.
| strikelaserclaw wrote:
| My ideal college would be 2 years of straight up technical
| computer science/math, followed by straight going into the
| industry. If you want to learn theory in depth, that is what
| grad school should be for.
| cryptolake wrote:
| That's exactly what I'm studying right now at holberton
| school in tunisia, it's project based and we dive into the
| fundamentals pretty well for a year and then choose a
| specialization in the other year, it's pretty good so far.
| ryanmarsh wrote:
| > As far as a springboard for a career, I haven't seen colleges
| come close to worth the price of admission.
|
| This right here.
|
| The strongest argument against the status quo is that the juice
| isn't worth the squeeze.
|
| In aggregate college graduates could achieve equal or greater
| levels of learning, relative to their chosen profession, and
| cost, with education regimes other than the typical four year
| state college experience.
| cush wrote:
| Good. It's a waste of money for most people, and not worth
| literally living in poverty. It's great that students have
| stopped falling for the scam.
| baby-yoda wrote:
| colleges have been expanding with zero constraints for 20+ years
| - demand for degrees increased significantly, enrollment went up
| and up, student loans being federally backed were given out to
| anyone for any amount so tuition naturally increased
| substantially. seemingly limitless growth opportunity?
|
| now many are massively bloated organizations with declining
| utility and the need to maintain their perpetual growth - who
| wants to cut costs? the downward spiral is only going to
| accelerate, IMO. and that doesn't even account for declining
| birth rates. my feeling is the next 20 years will see the higher
| ed industry contract rather quickly and the universities that
| remain will deliver either on quality (increasingly difficult to
| hold an advantage) or accessibility (inexpensive, contemporary
| workforce training since employers no longer do that).
| pm90 wrote:
| The population of the US has increased all this time too, and
| so has foreign student enrollment.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Not the college-age population, however.
| syki wrote:
| Enrollment in higher ed decreased 7% from 2008 to 2018. It's
| not true that colleges have been expanding with zero
| constraints. The increase in tuition at public colleges and
| universities has occurred with the decrease in public funding
| per student. At my system 20 years ago roughly 60% of the cost
| of education was publicly funded and now it is 40%. We've
| correspondingly increased tuition.
|
| https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/ch_3.asp
| asdff wrote:
| That's average, but when you look at what happens on the
| ground, the winners, like the name brand schools you've
| probably heard of before, are all expanding and building new
| dorms and labs and athletic facilities, and the losers, those
| random liberal arts schools in the middle of nowhere in new
| england and such, are closing down and selling off their
| property. It's hard to find a major university that isn't
| constructing some massive donor-backed capital project as we
| speak, and acceptance rates at major state schools across the
| board has been dropping like a stone; even schools like Cal
| State are becoming very competitive.
| baby-yoda wrote:
| thank you for linking stats. going back to 1998 there is
| clearly huge growth. total enrollment might already be taking
| a hit but i am referring more to the expenditure side of
| things - dorm buildings, campus luxuries, etc. the figures
| from your link display this, IMO. especially the
| expenditures.
|
| https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d19/figures/fig_12.asp
|
| but to be fair, yes the stats do indicate a decrease in
| enrollment. however degrees conferred has increased despite a
| decline in enrollment, any guesses as to that?
| syki wrote:
| There was growth in enrollment up until 2010. Colleges have
| been struggling since then. They need bodies and need to
| attract students. Standards for acceptance have gone down
| and grade inflation has gone up. Though grade inflation has
| been a thing for many decades now.
|
| As to your question. It's easier to get a degree now since
| standards have been lowered since we need to retain
| students. The cost of acquiring a student is much higher
| than retaining a student so a lot of effort has gone into
| retention. What this boils down to in my opinion is the
| need to pass students. Not failing students is the easiest
| way to retain them.
| baby-yoda wrote:
| makes sense, i hadn't thought about the grade inflation
| aspect. somewhat akin to the prevalence of fraud in asset
| bubbles.
|
| i also wonder if something like the power law is in play
| - larger schools fairing better with a larger student
| base to allocate acquisition costs over, vs smaller
| specialty schools. anecdotally i have seen one or two
| small schools close to me close/merge with other schools.
| [deleted]
| indymike wrote:
| There are three problems that colleges need to fix.
|
| 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track
| jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship
| than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can
| drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to
| what an firsty year teacher makes.
|
| 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my
| daughters did a six month digital marketing bootcamp. She made
| $45k year one, and a year later is the director of marketing at
| her company making over $100k/yr.
|
| 3) College is way over priced. They claim graduates make 40% over
| their lifetime vs. non grads. JP Morgan Chase did a study two
| years ago that shows kids that had a job, any job before age 18
| make 35% more than their peers over their lifetime regardless of
| degree.
|
| 4) Student loans are a horror that needs to stop. Young people
| should not be put in debt-bondage. Imagine America's financial
| health if we let young people start families and careers debt
| free.
| rurp wrote:
| > kids that had a job, any job before age 18 make 35% more than
| their peers over their lifetime regardless of degree.
|
| I'm surprised by the magnitude but I can see why this would be
| the case. Working teenagers probably correlate with having
| parents who value work. Plus it teaches some valuable skills
| early on. An entry level job can throw all sorts of
| uncomfortable challenges at you, which you are expected to
| handle in stride.
|
| I'd say there's a societal benefit as well, due to the empathy
| it promotes. Most people work very different jobs as an adult
| than they would as a teenager. Having more perspective on what
| other workers experience makes one more kind and reasonable in
| general.
| HNDen21 wrote:
| If you for example do some open source projects between 15
| and 18 and then get a job after finishing high school.. by
| the time the other person graduates college you will already
| have 4 years of experience and be a mid level/senior
| developer.. so you have a start of 4 years in terms of money
| as well as experience
|
| We only look at college degrees for people without
| experience... for people that have experience, we don't care
| about the college sine it is all outdated stuff anyway... the
| interview will tell us what we want to know
| rurp wrote:
| This reminds me of some research I've seen supporting this
| effect. I can't remember the exact study but basically a
| large factory shut down putting a lot of people out of
| work, who were then offered free schooling to learn a new
| trade. After some number of years they looked back on those
| individuals and the ones who took the free training had
| actually done worse on average than the ones who had turned
| it down.
|
| The effect seemed to be just what you're describing. Even
| though most of the non-schooling group got worse jobs to
| start, they had several years of lead time to build
| experience and get pay raises which ended up being more
| valuable than the certificate or degree the other group
| got.
| sjostrom7 wrote:
| You're probably also more able to work if your folks make
| enough money to have a stay-at-home parent (so you don't have
| to watch your younger siblings), buy you a car to get back
| and forth from your job, etc. Without seeing how they
| actually did this study, I'll go ahead and chalk most of this
| up to generational privilege.
| rurp wrote:
| Hmmm I'd want to see some data on this before drawing any
| conclusions, because my anecdotal experience is the
| opposite. The poor teenagers I knew pretty much all had
| jobs, in large part because they needed the money. Their
| only option to be able to buy new clothes or a used car was
| to earn the money themselves. Well off kids didn't have
| that same sort of pressure.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| My first job as a teen was delivering newspapers (not sure
| that's really an option anymore, though). I also cut lawns
| in the summer. All of that was on foot or bicycle. Didn't
| have a car until I was 18.
| kube-system wrote:
| I think this view is indicative of a massive failure of
| cultural expectations.
|
| At what point in the past 50 years did we start expecting
| academic liberal arts institutions to start churning out people
| with vocational skills? These are entirely different things.
|
| The fact that an average 1970's college graduate was highly
| employable has nothing to do with those colleges having good
| vocational training programs, and everything to do with
| selection bias of those who attended and the economics of the
| time.
|
| If you need vocational skills, you should enroll in a
| vocational program.
| eli_gottlieb wrote:
| >At what point in the past 50 years did we start expecting
| academic liberal arts institutions to start churning out
| people with vocational skills? These are entirely different
| things.
|
| The point where they started taking in about half of each
| rising generation as freshman instead of 5%.
| kube-system wrote:
| And whose fault is that? It's the parents and advisors that
| said "go to college and you'll get a good job" when they
| weren't cut out for it (or didn't even _want_ to do it). It
| 's the voters who pushed for students loans "to give all of
| our students a chance".
|
| If you give people who aren't cut out to do something, a
| chance to do that thing, it's expected that more people
| will fail. We are now living with the predictable result of
| pushing unmotivated and uninterested kids to "just try it
| out", and handing them a credit card to do it with.
| eli_gottlieb wrote:
| >And whose fault is that?
|
| The universities were happy to take the money, from the
| elite-but-useless private schools to the underfunded but
| more practical public engineering colleges. Only changing
| the incentives will change the results.
| j_autumn wrote:
| May I ask which Bootcamp that was? I'm interested in learning
| more about marketing :)
| throwaway75787 wrote:
| Out of interest, could you please point me in the direction of
| the digital marketing bootcamp that your daughter toook?
| elihu wrote:
| > Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track
| jobs.
|
| The impression I get from hanging out a bit in the welding
| subreddit is that a lot of people get into welding thinking
| it'll be a lucrative profession (because that's what people on
| the internet say about plumbers and welders and electricians
| and so forth), and what they eventually discover is that while
| it's possible to make a lot of money as a welder, that really
| only works if you own your own business. If you take a job
| working as someone else's employee, the pay usually isn't all
| that great.
|
| That isn't to say that people shouldn't get into welding, it's
| just that they should have the right strategy and expectation
| going in.
| PopeUrbanX wrote:
| vmception wrote:
| There aren't colleges problem. Its coincidence that for the
| last 60 years people felt like they _needed_ college, while
| colleges insist that people want to be there for obscure higher
| education for the sake of pursuing obscure higher education.
| Turns out this was true for hundreds of years before inclusion
| was even a concept, and will exist for the next hundreds of
| years as people find another option.
| [deleted]
| jjulius wrote:
| >There aren't colleges problem. Its coincidence that for the
| last 60 years people felt like they needed college...
|
| Colleges - especially for-profit colleges - have certainly
| contributed to that feeling.
| vmception wrote:
| I agree that many parties have seized on the opportunity
| presented, and I am just as apathetic to which institutions
| will cease to exist in any disruption to their finances.
| the concept will remain around.
| rPlayer6554 wrote:
| The colleges were willing to jack up the price to take
| advantage of the government giving out loans. They are a
| major part of the problem as well.
| kube-system wrote:
| And those that did, used the funds to build new campuses
| and cutting-edge programs. And students overwhelmingly
| chose to go to these more expensive and larger schools
| while smaller and more modest schools struggled to attract
| students.
| [deleted]
| jimbokun wrote:
| > She made $45k year one, and a year later is the director of
| marketing at her company making over $100k/yr.
|
| That...is one heck of a promotion. Good for her!
| jacobolus wrote:
| > _kids that had a job, any job before age 18 make 35% more
| than their peers over their lifetime_
|
| Just as with claims about college, there is a huge selection
| bias in this observation. (A substantially higher proportion of
| youngish Americans obtain a bachelors degree than have a job
| before age 18.)
|
| Edit: Let's be clear: there is obviously a huge selection bias
| when talking about college as well, which should not be
| ignored.
| texasbigdata wrote:
| That's the point?
| dionidium wrote:
| > _A substantially higher proportion of Americans obtain a
| bachelors degree than have a job before age 18._
|
| Is this true? I got a job as soon as I was legally allowed to
| and so did every one of my friends in high school. Where I'm
| from you were seen as kind of a loser if you didn't work over
| the summer, at least. I'd guess it was something like 90% of
| kids at my school worked at some point in high school.
|
| Edit: Here's a chart [0]. These numbers are much smaller than
| I expected (although keep in mind this is a snapshot, not the
| percentage who _at any point in high school_ will have had a
| job), but what 's really surprising is that the number of
| high school kids working has collapsed since I was in high
| school.
|
| [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/477668/percentage-of-
| you...
| rurp wrote:
| Interesting. I'm also surprised by those numbers. I had a
| job in high school and so did most of my friends. Maybe not
| 90% of them, but I'm sure it was >60% of people I knew.
| ghaff wrote:
| Here's something more detailed from BLS.
| https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2017/article/teen-labor-
| force-p...
|
| It suggests the difference is more teens in school. One
| can also imagine more focus on extracurriculars etc.
| within a certain demographic over a job flipping burgers.
| nathanyz wrote:
| Wonder what the cause is for the drop off from ~30% to
| under 20%?
|
| Speculation but maybe boomer money allows their kids not to
| need to work as much as past.
| jacobolus wrote:
| Or more competition from older workers for entry-level
| service jobs, after the 2008 recession.
| dionidium wrote:
| Maybe it's whatever is causing a more general decline in
| labor force participation?
|
| https://twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1481468372911116295
| tryptophan wrote:
| Yes, but it is interesting which bias gets ignored and which
| one gets pointed out.
|
| > Collage increases earnings!
|
| "Yay lets send everyone to collage and give out >1T$ of
| loans"
|
| > Early work experience increases earnings!
|
| "Confounding factors and selection bias!"
| [deleted]
| endisneigh wrote:
| Im very skeptical of this post:
|
| 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited
| window in which you can do it. In addition many are not
| welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the
| highest paying trades, do they pay more than the highest paying
| careers that require higher education?
|
| 2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your
| daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no comparison
| can be made.
|
| 3. Some colleges perhaps, smart people can get full
| scholarships and even without that community college plus a
| cheap state school isn't expensive. Link to your study? Did
| these people not go to college?
|
| 4. As you've already demonstrated college is hardly required
| let alone loans.
|
| I'm surprised this is the top post.
|
| Average College grads make more money over their lifetime,
| period.
|
| https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/c...
| zaidf wrote:
| The PDF you linked cites lifetime earning data collected from
| the previous century. It might tell you about how things were
| 1950-2000. But says little about our current Internet-driven
| world.
| zebraflask wrote:
| I think #1 needs to factor in cost of living. In many urban
| areas, 45K is near or even below the poverty level for a
| single worker.
| geodel wrote:
| Well , one thing to consider is who more likely need to
| stay in urban area. I think it is required more for college
| educated compared to tradespeople.
| zebraflask wrote:
| To find white collar employment? At least before remote
| work became prevalent recently, I suppose so.
|
| On the other hand, the infrastructure for a large urban
| area doesn't run itself! Trade work is definitely needed
| to keep the roads paved and cars functional, the
| warehouses and stores stocked, the buildings in repair,
| etc., I would hazard even more so than in less urbanized
| areas.
|
| I think what I'm getting at is that it seems a little too
| facile to say uncritically that anyone can just go drive
| a forklift and expect to make a reasonably liveable
| income.
| upsidesinclude wrote:
| What? you slam that post for not supplying the information
| and yet state >[trades] are not welcoming to women at all /
| last time I looked at ANY trade, they are begging women to
| come WORK. Maybe that's what you meant though
| BigRedDog1669 wrote:
| What do you mean by "last time I looked at ANY trade, they
| are begging women to come WORK."? By looking at trades, do
| you mean look at a website claiming to want women to work
| in them? The PR/advertising spins on jobs don't always
| align with the working conditions driving anyone with
| standards or a family away. See how "essential" workers
| have been treated during the pandemic. If you listen to the
| radio, they are being begged to work. But that work is
| conditional on bad pay and conditions often.
|
| Edit: I'm not trying to claim there aren't good trades,
| just that the "word on the block" about how easy it is to
| get a job doesn't always reflect reality.
| pvarangot wrote:
| > Average College grads make more money over their lifetime,
| period.
|
| So that doesn't mean that if those people hadn't gone to
| college they wouldn't be making that extra money.
|
| No one is saying that people that go to college are less
| valuable, what's in question is exactly what is college
| attendance adding that can't just be created in a less
| expensive, less elitist and more efficient environment.
|
| Period.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Sure, but the parent post is talking about salaries here.
|
| And no one is going to run an experiment on their own life
| but observationally, yes, that's what's happening in
| aggregate.
| silisili wrote:
| Re 1, at least in the US, it's very dependent on market and
| path.
|
| I have two family members who have been pipefitters for 20
| years. Both make more than I do as a software engineer.
| Another is a doctor, and makes more than they do. But another
| does boat repair, and makes more than the doctor.
|
| If the last decade is any indication, skilled labor -
| especially those not afraid to own their own business, are
| set to make a killing. It's nearly impossible to even get
| people to come out for normal household jobs anymore -
| they're all way too busy with more lucrative clients.
| tapatio wrote:
| "It's nearly impossible to even get people to come out for
| normal household jobs anymore"
|
| Yup, residential clients are bottom feeders - avoid them at
| all costs - nothing but a hassle. The good money, and work,
| is with commercial clients.
| welshwelsh wrote:
| I'm sure there are some pipefitters who make a lot of
| money, but we should go by averages, not outliers.
|
| The average for "Plumbers, Pipefitters, and Steamfitters"
| is $56,330 per year, according to the BLS. For "Software
| Developers, Quality Assurance Analysts, and Testers" it's
| $110,140 per year. For "Physicians and Surgeons," it's
| $208,000 per year.
|
| We also need to consider that running your own business is
| a lot of work, and doing physical labor can be hard on the
| body. One of the benefits of office jobs is that you get
| high pay, stable hours, relatively low stress and get to
| work in an air-conditioned room. So I would still prefer
| that over skilled trades even if the pay was the same.
| zzbzq wrote:
| There's a lot of misleading information out there. On
| this site I once saw a carpenter say he was making more
| than he used to make as a $300k software developer. But I
| had some carpenters working for me and somehow I figured
| out they made around a tenth of that. In reality some of
| the outliers making a ton of money are wearing many hats
| as sales/marketing people, employing and managing
| subcontractors and employees, perhaps running their own
| website and SEO, and to truly get the gravy train running
| they nail some big sale where they sell some huge
| contract for an overpaying corporate client.
| Terr_ wrote:
| > but we should go by averages, not outliers.
|
| Or to be a little pedantic, by mean, not average. When
| Bill Gates walks into a dive bar the "average person" is
| temporarily is a billionaire.
| hiptobecubic wrote:
| Median?
| prirun wrote:
| > One of the benefits of office jobs is that you get high
| pay, stable hours, relatively low stress and get to work
| in an air-conditioned room. So I would still prefer that
| over skilled trades even if the pay was the same.
|
| One of the downsides is your job can be easily outsourced
| to a country with lower wages, and with remote work here
| to stay (IMO), that is going to be even easier than
| before.
|
| There are no remote plumbers.
|
| I firmly believe that if you show up on time, are
| pleasant, and are competent at your work, running your
| own business is a slam dunk and you can charge whatever
| you want (within reason). Because my experience is that
| it's nearly impossible anymore to get all of those
| things.
| spullara wrote:
| If we can get AR/VR into the mainstream I bet there will
| be remote plumbers that essentially pilot you to diagnose
| and fix things.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| Try pulling a broken cartridge out of a 20 year old
| shower faucet after the handle snaps off. I'll give you
| the pliers you need. You get one try and if you fail, you
| will now need the tools to remove tile or cut drywall,
| cut pipes, solder, etc.
| rcurry wrote:
| Heh, so I installed a new faucet in our kitchen sink and
| thought I'd done a good job, I had hoses snaking all over
| the place and my wife was like "I can't even use the
| pull-out sprayer because it won't go back in once I pull
| it out." So a few months later I call my plumber and ask
| if he can replace the valves under my kitchen sink
| because they're old and the tolerances are outside my
| skill level for trying to saw them off and replace them.
| He comes out, spends and hour replacing the valves and
| then he's like "oh yeah, I fixed all the hoses under the
| sink for no charge, the last guy did a horrible job, you
| can't even use the sprayer!" I look under the sink and
| it's like NASA came in and rerouted everything, tons of
| room, no crazy hoses hanging down, and the sprayer works!
| protomyth wrote:
| I'm sure the local governments and their inspectors will
| have a bit of a say in that.
|
| AR/VR does not make one experienced.
| thorsten11 wrote:
| I guess all the tools in his pickup is not needed then?
| spullara wrote:
| They will be but that will be delivered to your home for
| rental.
| thatjoeoverthr wrote:
| The downvotes are warranted but being "piloted" over the
| internet is a really interesting idea. There was a
| similar idea in the Black Mirror Christmas special.
| tailrecursion wrote:
| Interesting idea, and maybe we already have a step toward
| remote piloting in the form of Youtube videos that
| explain how to do various tasks: plumbing, home
| improvement, auto repair, hvac, and so on.
| coding123 wrote:
| Reminds me of when a plumber was installing an RO system
| in my house, was swearing for half an hour about the PEX,
| then forgot to shut-off the lines while a PEX fitting
| fell off and poured 200 gallons of water on my crappy
| fake wood shaw floor causing it to ripple. He then
| claimed it was my condos fault for using PEX in the first
| place. Holy crap you can't be more right.
| jimbokun wrote:
| Software has been outsourced since the 1990s and still
| wages continue to increase.
| [deleted]
| RC_ITR wrote:
| It's kind of a political meme that welding is the key to
| everyone getting a middle class lifestyle, because good
| welders get paid a good amount.
|
| The joke ofc being that there is a 'shortage' of welders
| because it's actually very hard to become a good welder.
| If, somehow, we got a bunch of people to become really good
| welders, it would just go to being a low paid profession.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| The best people in any field make the most money in
| general, and it takes a lot of experience and work along
| with intelligence and natural ability to be among that
| group.
| tejtm wrote:
| sounds just like programming ... I know! let's invent
| object oriented welding to lower the barriers to being
| able to make a weld that holds.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| If you're welding without regard for the objects or their
| orientation you're probably going to have a bad time.
| subsubzero wrote:
| its very hard to be become a good welder and it usually
| takes about a decade to master that craft, so 10 years
| gone. Very similar to medical school except you are
| making money during that decade instead of paying it to
| schools and residency.
| Miraste wrote:
| This is why the GP linked a source with the national
| average for college graduates and non-grads. Certainly
| there are tradespeople who make a ton of money, but
| _usually_ they make less than degree holders.
| bumby wrote:
| > _Certainly there are tradespeople who make a ton of
| money, but usually they make less than degree holders._
|
| I wonder how much of this isn't also driven by the
| reduction in private union membership. I've worked white
| collar jobs in organizations with strong unions and I'm
| willing to bet the blue collar workers were probably
| almost surely, on average, more than the average white
| collar workers elsewhere. And when I worked in areas with
| weak union membership, the converse was true.
|
| The difficulty in the former was that it was hard to get
| into the union, but once you did, you were probably
| making many multiples of the average household income for
| the locale.
| bluGill wrote:
| Average isn't useful though. Your expected pay after med
| school is very different from a music degree. Sure a few
| in music make millions per year, but most struggle to
| make anything, and a significant number who do get a good
| income are not in anything related to music.
|
| There are many different trades, with different income
| expectations. And of course if you are willing to own the
| business (not easy) is a factor, some business are more
| conductive to owning your own business.
|
| We need to be honest with kids: it matters what degree or
| job you presue. While I can't predict the future
| perfectly I can look at trends and say some engineering
| jobs are better than others. Med school looks really good
| too. Music on the other hand should be a second major or
| a minor if you study it at all. Likewise in the trades
| some are better than others, though I'm not sure what to
| get into.
| endisneigh wrote:
| How old are you and how old are they? If we're talking
| anecdotes I guarantee I know people that make more than all
| the people you've mentioned combined and went to college.
| It doesn't mean anything. Let's talk medians here.
| thebradbain wrote:
| Median income and age don't paint the whole picture,
| though, either -- you need to take into account things
| like student loan debt, or benefits, or even taxes
| (because it is not uncommon for trades, even for those
| personally pulling in 6+ figures, to be paid a good chunk
| of their compensation in cash that's not necessarily
| recorded anywhere).
|
| Learning a trade and going to college for a white collar
| job are two different routes entirely, in my opinion.
| Even assuming that the skillsets were interchangeable, a
| lot of trades people would never trade their job for an
| office job and vice versa.
| leetcrew wrote:
| > taxes (because it is not uncommon for trades, even for
| those personally pulling in 6+ figures, to be paid a good
| chunk of their compensation in cash that's not
| necessarily recorded anywhere).
|
| some good points, but I wanted to call this out
| specifically. when we're discussing at a high level what
| career paths should be encouraged, possibly via policy, I
| don't think we should price in the ability to evade
| taxes.
| silisili wrote:
| We're all within 7 or so years of age, except the boat
| repair who is considerably older.
|
| This isn't a contest IMO, we all do more than OK. But
| it's definitely not fair to say that college pays more
| than trades. Both have huge swaths of pay ranges, from
| effectively zero, to millions. But if you're optimizing
| for making as much money as possible, I'd argue you're
| doing it wrong anyways.
| endisneigh wrote:
| The details matter - 7 years is medical school and some
| residencies for example.
|
| To not take into account the age is silly. And the entire
| point of the original post is arguing about earnings,
| so...
| skadamat wrote:
| Obligatory Shop Class as SoulCraft drop -
| https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-
| so...
| cosmodisk wrote:
| This is what some people call a never getting old story of
| a builder who arrives to fix up your house in a Ferrari.
| It's a myth. Sole traders are sole traders. Some will pull
| in more,some will do less. Fantastic incomes aren't
| happening that often. If they start employing people-
| that's a business, exactly the same as if some dev would
| get a bunch of others under his ltd corp.
| nindalf wrote:
| A comment doesn't necessarily need to be accurate to reach
| the top, it could merely confirm the biases of enough people
| so they think "yeah, sounds right to me!"
| RealityVoid wrote:
| I find it amusing your comment was greyed out when the the
| insight was so good.
| hardtke wrote:
| > In addition many are not welcoming to women at all
|
| Economists are now finding that as more women move into a
| profession, the pay goes down. Similarly, when computer
| programming moved from a female dominated profession (early
| days) to male dominated (now) the pay went up. Medical fields
| that have higher proportions of women have lower pay. Along
| these lines, as college skews more female (college grads are
| like 60/40 female/male now) the "college grad" professions
| are having a declining wage premium compared to non college
| grad jobs.
| serverholic wrote:
| Source on programming starting out female dominated? Also,
| I'm curious what a programmer's job looked like in the
| beginning.
| 0xcde4c3db wrote:
| I don't know of a solid source, but I've heard
| anecdotally that computer programming and operation roles
| in major corporations of the '60s and '70s tended to be
| dominated by women, partly because the kinds of
| tabulation and collation that big business wanted were
| extensions of existing secretarial work, but also for the
| more immediate practical reason that the average female
| office worker of the time was _far_ more likely than her
| male colleagues to already be an experienced typist.
| ipaddr wrote:
| I've met many trained by IBM COBOL developers.
| MrsPeaches wrote:
| A women (Ada Lovelace) is "often been cited as the first
| computer programmer" [1]
|
| Also the term "Computer" was actually an occupation (that
| was dominated by women) before the modern usage [2]
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace#First_comp
| uter_pr... [2]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)
| giaour wrote:
| https://www.history.com/news/coding-used-to-be-a-womans-
| job-... is a bit superficial but gives a decent summary
| bluGill wrote:
| Back in the 1930s - before computers existed it was
| considered boring women's work (sexism intended). There
| wasn't much demand because of course computers were a
| room full of people running this by hand. In the 1950s
| when computers were invented males discovered programming
| was interesting and took over.
|
| As such it is more the image is programming will be
| women's work than a reality because the reality is there
| weren't many programmers.
| glasss wrote:
| Would love to read more about this phenomenon, do you have
| links to articles or places to start?
|
| Edit: Found an article[0] that links to a study[1]
|
| [0] - https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-
| take-over... [1] - https://academic.oup.com/sf/article-
| abstract/88/2/865/223534...
| klipt wrote:
| Correlation is not causation. It's possible that as
| fields pay more, they attract more men (because due to
| gender roles imposed on men, men lose more status from
| low income than women do) and conversely as fields pay
| less, men abandon them for other higher paying fields.
| devwastaken wrote:
| 1. Trades are overwhelmingly what people do when they don't
| go for a BA, and often have houses and children far before
| college graduates. Many more mechanics, plumber, hvac,
| electrical, welders, pipfitters, etc than we give credit for.
|
| 3. Scholarships are not based on intelligence. They are based
| on access to resources. Many good scholarships require
| references, achievements, good writing, and lower income.
| Hard to do that in a city school, if at all. Those that get
| the scholarships come from parents that know how to game the
| system. This leaves first generation students far out of the
| equation. To add to that, judging students based on their
| high school is a terrible method of educating.
|
| 4. A degree has become more required if you don't have the
| resources to already live in a major city for your work. For
| example, you can work in software if you live in cali cities
| far easier than if you live in Utah. If you're coming from
| Utah, you have to pass the "I'm a drone" test of getting a
| degree. Many people would like to work in something other
| than trades, hence university.
|
| University no longer functions like we think it does. Large
| amounts of it are now online, auto-graded, with instructors
| barely doing any work other than showing up. Housing and
| tuition costs have skyrocketed with far less scholarships
| than ever before. I recall a 40,000 scholarship 8 years ago
| that simply doesn't exist anymore, along with a number of
| others. Many of these are funded by various communities or
| collaborations of companies, and over time the over
| corporatization, lack of funds and lack of community have
| lead them to just not offer scholarships anymore. Why give
| away free money? A really easy way to upset a number of
| teachers, especially high school teachers, is to tell them to
| try to locate applicable scholarships for their students.
| They can't. Perhaps a couple that maybe add up to $800 one
| shots. Half of that being a local scholarship. They get very
| hand wavey and think 1 of 3 scholarships from Microsoft or
| Google is reasonably obtainable, yet realistically it would
| be similar to winning the lottery.
|
| There are many bright and hard working students I meet daily
| that simply cannot get the support they need and cannot
| devote their time to learning what they need to. It is
| absolutely brutal the number of hours some of these students
| are working just to survive. We give the largest amount of
| support to students whom are already well off and tell those
| that have to work for what they have to go away. That's
| American education as I see playing out as we speak.
| pb7 wrote:
| >Trades are overwhelmingly what people do when they don't
| go for a BA, and often have houses and children far before
| college graduates.
|
| Having a house and children as soon as possible isn't a
| win. It's what happens when you lack imagination. There's
| so much more to life than pumping out kids at 21 in your
| 3/2 in fly over country.
| nfw2 wrote:
| Having children as soon as possible may not be a win, but
| having a house surely is. How could owning a valuable and
| necessary asset not be considered a win?
| pb7 wrote:
| Because owning a house makes you reluctant to move to
| pursue great life opportunities, some of which are career
| based that would earn you more money over your lifetime.
| Of course that has changed with the adoption of remote
| work but let's be honest, no one saw that coming.
| nfw2 wrote:
| Owning a house doesn't necessarily make you reluctant to
| move to pursue other opportunities somewhere else.
| Renting or just re-selling the house is always an option.
|
| Also, anything good in your life would make you reluctant
| to move somewhere else. But you wouldn't say, for
| example, that having a significant other is bad because
| it makes you reluctant to move.
| babypuncher wrote:
| Both renting and re-selling are major sources of
| friction. I'm a first-time homeowner and I find the
| prospect of moving today far more daunting than when I
| was still renting, because of these factors. The risk
| feels much higher, so I need a much greater promise of
| reward before I'm willing to take it.
| rootsudo wrote:
| I'm not surprised at all - people with degrees try to find
| reasons to think they're better then the rest.
|
| 1. Many trades also are your own business, and can
| immediately scale for income - many plumbers, electricians,
| etc are millionaires with a small team of employees less than
| 15.
|
| 2. Google offers free marketing certification for this reason
| as well, it's not impossible for marketing/seo people to make
| 100k annually. It's very, very common.
|
| 3. Many colleges are not worth it and is debt- look at most
| state schools and you'd see a semester costs minimum $45,000.
| Yes there's community colleges.
|
| 4. Even community colleges require loans, and have programs
| of financial aid that is really "apply for fafsa, apply for
| stanford loans and then have pipelines for private debt.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Stafford loans are not a thing anymore since 2010.
| endisneigh wrote:
| 1. You can also start your own business with a college
| degree. Let's compare like for like here.
|
| 2. Where are the stats?
|
| 3. Sure, many colleges are worth it too. State schools
| don't cost 45k a semester. Don't know how you can spread
| misinformation.
|
| 4. Community college can be very cheap, it depends on where
| you are and how poor you are so it's hard to draw broad
| strokes here.
| indymike wrote:
| > 1. You can also start your own business with a college
| degree. Let's compare like for like here.
|
| A degree is not required at all to start a business.
| Evidence: Microsoft, Dell.
| emaginniss wrote:
| You're way off on 3. You're saying that tuition alone at a
| state school costs $45k per semester, which would be $90k
| per year. This site says that the average in-state public
| school is ~$25k _all-in_ for a year. That includes tuition,
| room and board, books and transportation.
|
| https://www.valuepenguin.com/student-loans/average-cost-
| of-c...
| rootsudo wrote:
| That is not accurate at all
|
| https://admission.ucla.edu/tuition-aid/tuition-fees 56k 9
| months.
|
| https://www.ohio.edu/financial-aid/cost
|
| 34k 9 months
|
| 9 months is considered 2 semesters.
|
| per semester.
|
| wouldn't consider ohio personally though. but beats your
| average by a good 30%. Not sure where it can get cheaper
| than Ohio.
| emaginniss wrote:
| You literally said "look at most state schools." How can
| most state schools have a cost that is higher than the
| average. Also, even your own case proved it. These
| schools are charging 56k or 34k respectively for 2
| semesters. Therefore, a single semester would be 28k or
| 17k. Far from the 45k you allege in the original post.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> Not sure where it can get cheaper than Ohio. _
|
| Apparently lots of places, since the national average is
| substantially lower than the Ohio numbers.
|
| But, more importantly, both UCLA and Ohio University are
| flagship R1s. Likely literally every other public
| university in Ohio is cheaper than OU, and I'd be
| unsurprised if UCLA is one of the more expensive public
| options in CA (wouldn't know, never lived in CA).
|
| e: sure enough, the total cost at Youngstown State is 22K
| (tuition 10K, the rest is food and housing).
|
| As an aside, including room and board in college prices
| always struck me as a bit odd (except in cases where
| living in a dorm is required, I guess, but that's
| somewhat rare). Do non-college-students not
| eat/drink/sleep?
|
| Colleges/Universities and expensive enough and screwed up
| enough that exaggeration isn't necessary.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Ohio State is an R1. Ohio is an R2.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| Thanks. In any case, I'm not sure why we're discussing
| cherry picked datapoints when someone already posted
| national averages...
| sokoloff wrote:
| Is that meant to support your earlier claim that "most
| state schools...a semester costs minimum $45,000"?
| just-ok wrote:
| You can't say "most state schools" and then cite UCLA,
| which is one of the top public universities in the world.
| rkk3 wrote:
| But those are for out of state students. By your own
| links...
|
| UCLA is ~36k all-in / per academic year for in state
| students Ohio is ~24k all in / per academic year for in
| state students
|
| It's not cheap or something you can cover on a part time
| job anymore but its nowhere near the numbers you are
| citing.
| [deleted]
| jimbokun wrote:
| > In addition many are not welcoming to women at all
|
| Many universities aren't welcoming to men at all.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| > In addition many are not welcoming to women at all...
|
| There's a long way to go on this, but there are definitely
| people pushing back on it in various ways, including a number
| of women welders, electricians, bricklayers, etc all posting
| about themselves and their experiences on Tiktok:
|
| https://www.tiktok.com/discover/women-in-trades
| snomad wrote:
| > without that community college plus a cheap state school
| isn't expensive.
|
| UCLA is 13k per year, *if* you are from California. Classes
| are likely impacted (even upper division) so even if a person
| goes to UCLA just for the last 2.5 - 3 years they could
| easily owe > 30k
|
| The real cost
|
| - rampant corruption (in california, if they ever opened the
| books on the non-profit entities it would be a major stunner
| and awakening for many people). Last I saw there was ~100
| non-profits serving ~20 campuses . You can read more
| https://www.calstate.edu/csu-system/auxiliary-
| organizations/.... But what they don't tell you, those books
| are private and not shared with the public. Rest assured,
| they are money laundering machines.
|
| - rent seekers like Pearson and Mcgraw Hill (fun fact, did
| you know the 2 joined forces to run a company called Follets
| that runs most campus bookstores (how is that allowed?)
|
| - administration bloat
| halpert wrote:
| I think 30K is quite a reasonable cost. Parents have almost
| two decades to save the money, plus they can do so with a
| 529 plan and avoid capital gains taxes. Even saving $100
| dollars a month invested in the market will net 42,000
| after 18 years (assuming 7% return).
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> assuming 7% return_
|
| Tuition has been increasing at 8% per year.
| jackfruitpeel wrote:
| European here -- that is an insane cost for college fees
| from my POV. I attended one of the most highly rated
| courses for my profession in Europe and only paid about
| EUR3K per year.
| halpert wrote:
| But your taxes are also much higher. You would pay more
| than 30K over 18 years most likely.
| throwaway675309 wrote:
| You'd be surprised at how in some places in Europe the
| differential in taxes compared to the United States is
| not as significant as you would expect. When you factor
| in state and federal taxes it's not that unusual to pay
| upwards of 35-40% in annual taxes. The difference is at
| least a lot of the European countries have something to
| show for it (subsidized education, universal healthcare,
| etc).
| halpert wrote:
| I've lived in Germany for a number of years. My taxes
| were around 42% if I recall correctly. Plus 400 euros a
| month for health insurance. Oh, and don't forget 25% of
| capital gains.
|
| I do agree with you though: you get your money's worth in
| Europe.
| paulpauper wrote:
| >2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your
| daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no comparison
| can be made.
|
| Bootcamps charge a lot upfront and success rates as measured
| by good-paying jobs are low.
| aspaceman wrote:
| Someone needs to machine parts, drive forklifts, and do other
| highly specialized and difficult tasks.
|
| Do you know how hard it is to make gears for example? Not the
| theory, but actually making some gears. Or even a door hinge
| can be serious business.
|
| These professions demand such high pay without a college
| education _because_ they are so essential to our functioning.
|
| In my opinion, they pay like crap because they're considered
| "dirty and working class". Women don't want to do them for
| the same reason ime. Not many women like working in a cold,
| dirty and loud shop instead of a nice office.
| greedo wrote:
| "cheap state school"...
|
| The state school where I live charges $18K/year for tuition
| and housing. That sure isn't cheap, especially for a mediocre
| school. Graduating with $72K in debt from this school would
| be a waste of money if you aren't doing a STEM program, and
| if you are, there are far better schools.
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| > 2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your
| daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no comparison
| can be made.
|
| Plenty of coding bootcamps have great placement rates and
| great salaries. For example, the median salary at Boston's
| Launch academy is $72k. The median salary for Fullstack
| Academy Grace Hopper in NY is $90k.
|
| https://static.spacecrafted.com/b13328575ece40d8853472b9e0cf.
| ..
|
| https://static.spacecrafted.com/b13328575ece40d8853472b9e0cf.
| ..
|
| This organization verifies outcomes independently:
| https://cirr.org/data
|
| I know several people who have gone to both of these, the
| data is legit, that's the outcome I saw from the graduating
| class.
|
| > 3. Some colleges perhaps, smart people can get full
| scholarships and even without that community college plus a
| cheap state school isn't expensive. Link to your study? Did
| these people not go to college?
|
| Even "cheap" state schools aren't so cheap
| https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-college We're still
| talking on average $25k/year. But that depends heavily on the
| state. In some states, you pay $14k in others $30k. Either
| way. Not cheap.
|
| The rise in cost has been amazing:
| https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d07/tables/dt07_320.asp
| In the 1960s total tuition + room + board inflation corrected
| was only $1000!
| endisneigh wrote:
| 2. Your stats are incomplete- how many of these people
| already have degrees? What's the breakdown between that and
| wages? What's the median pay for college graduates who go
| into the same professions?
|
| 3. Not cheap compared to what exactly? College graduates
| generally get paid more money over the lifetime.
| wheelinsupial wrote:
| Not perfect, but it's the only attempt I've seen to try
| and answer the question about pre-boot camp education.
|
| https://www.coursereport.com/reports/2020-coding-
| bootcamp-al...
|
| (Difficult to read on mobile)
|
| This shows that 1% have no high school diploma, 5% have
| graduated high school and the remaining 94% have gone to
| or graduated from college.
|
| 15% have 1-4 years of college and no degree, 6% an
| associates, 55% a bachelor's, 16% have a masters, 1%
| doctorate, 1% a professional degree.
|
| Data from 2018,2019,2020 is collected from the surveys.
|
| Average Wages: No college degree: $61,836 Associates:
| $57,762 Bachelor: $71,267 Masters: $74,774 Professional:
| $66,619 Doctorate: $83,250
|
| Not clear if this is the first job only or if this
| includes the results of second and third jobs. There is a
| section showing average wages for first job is $69,079
| and average wage for third job is $99,229.
|
| Also 15% of the graduates have never been employed from
| the boot camps. (16% for 2018 grads, 15% for 2019 grads,
| and 37% for 2020 grads.)
|
| There are a lot of other insights in there as well.
|
| Unfortunately the reporting doesn't generally show
| quantiles or other information about the spread in wages.
| There are a few results where mean and median are shown.
|
| As it's a survey and self-reported there are always going
| to be some limitations. If others have alternative data
| to offer up, please share!
| zetta0 wrote:
| I feel like another caveat to college is that it is mentally
| exhausting. I went to a state college for 2 years and dropped
| out and pursued IT certifications. In my career and I am
| currently sitting at 75k after a year of experience. I'm also
| more knowledgeable than my coworkers who finished their
| graduation by a longshot. My 6 certifications covered more
| than their entire curriculum. The current college system is
| very broken.
| ravitation wrote:
| > 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited
| window in which you can do it. In addition many are not
| welcoming to women at all, regardless even if you take the
| highest paying trades, do they pay more than the highest
| paying careers that require higher education?
|
| Exactly.
|
| These types of post often ignore the actual work being done.
|
| A graduate student might make a comparable hourly rate to an
| amazon warehouse employee, but he or she can also go to the
| bathroom and sit down.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Working in an Amazon warehouse would not be considered a
| "trade" by most definitions. It doesn't require much if any
| training and amost anyone in normal physical condition can
| do it. It's more of a pure "laborer" job, these have always
| paid less than skilled trades.
| zaphod12 wrote:
| I don't know man - graduate student might be the only job
| that's more demanding that amazon warehouse employee.
| indymike wrote:
| > 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited
| window in which you can do it.
|
| I'm not sure what you mean by limited window unless we are
| talking about professional athletes and some categories of
| manual laborers.
|
| > In addition many are not welcoming to women at all,
| regardless even if you take the highest paying trades
|
| This is rapidly changing. Also, there are also skilled trades
| that are mostly women (e.g. cosmetologist, many medical
| roles).
|
| > do they pay more than the highest paying careers that
| require higher education?
|
| When we factor out jobs that require 8-12 years of education,
| in general, yes the trades aren't a bad deal.
|
| > 2. Which boot camp? How many people ended up like your
| daughter? How much was it? Without these facts no comparison
| can be made.
|
| I'm not turning this into an ad for the school my daughter
| went to. Cost was literally 1/2 of he first year salary over
| $40,000. It was capped at a maximum amount. She ended up
| paying about $6k, but it was contingent on her getting a job
| that payed better than $40k.
|
| 3. Some colleges perhaps, smart people can get full
| scholarships and even without that community college plus a
| cheap state school isn't expensive.
|
| I have five kids. My first was straight As, great test
| scores, and we still ended up with $6-8k of expense per
| semester after the full ride scholarships paid for tuition at
| a small private college.
|
| Ok, here is the biggest community college in the US: Ivy
| Tech. $2,400 per semester for 12 hours, plus fees. It's not
| that expensive, but they also have less than 20% of students
| complete their degrees...
|
| > Link to your study? Did these people not go to college?
|
| It didn't matter what education level they attained, across
| the population the outcome was consistent. Having a job while
| young made a huge difference - almost as much as having a
| degree.
|
| 4. As you've already demonstrated college is hardly required
| let alone loans.
|
| Yep.
| endisneigh wrote:
| > I'm not turning this into an ad for the school my
| daughter went to. Cost was literally 1/2 of he first year
| salary over $40,000. It was capped at a maximum amount. She
| ended up paying about $6k, but it was contingent on her
| getting a job that payed better than $40k.
|
| You already have. I want to see the graduation stats.
|
| > It didn't matter what education level they attained,
| across the population the outcome was consistent. Having a
| job while young made a huge difference - almost as much as
| having a degree.
|
| Where's the link?
|
| Sorry but your point is way too centered on your anecdotes.
| Fact remains that college graduates make more money.
|
| https://www2.ed.gov/policy/highered/reg/hearulemaking/2011/
| c...
| fuzzer37 wrote:
| Do you like to argue just to argue?
| endisneigh wrote:
| Nah, but I don't like claims without evidence. That's how
| misinformation spreads. I've already laid out my source
| for believing college grads make more money than non
| college grads.
| betwixthewires wrote:
| I'm pretty sure not, I'm pretty sure this person is going
| to argue until someone helps them justify their education
| expenses to themselves, or their teaching profession.
| They're fishing for a "you're right, college is the only
| thing that's worth it."
| pb7 wrote:
| As opposed to the other person, who laid out their
| anecdotes to make themselves feel better by not providing
| sufficient information to refute it?
|
| Come on. The stats support colleges. You need to provide
| more than anecdotes to be taken seriously. I could just
| as easily blurt out that I make more than all of his 5
| kids combined because I went to college and boom,
| anecdote refuted. This isn't how it's done in
| conversations worth having.
| betwixthewires wrote:
| If the stats supported colleges you wouldn't have this
| huge nationwide movement of people looking to make
| college free because they're burdened until retirement by
| debt they can't pay off. That's not anecdotal, that is a
| major political platform point.
| endisneigh wrote:
| This isn't really relevant. You can make more money and
| still be burdened
| betwixthewires wrote:
| _Which is the problem with your presented stat._ "People
| with degrees make 40% more over their lifetimes on
| average" is useless because it tells us nothing about
| whether it's worth the capital expenditure. Just making
| more money isn't the point, having a better life is the
| point.
|
| So it is very relevant, and your statement here is
| basically an admission that your 40% stat I keep seeing
| in these threads is equally irrelevant. "You can make
| more money and still be burdened" equates to "making more
| money won't necessarily make your life better." If that's
| true, what the hell is the point of going to college? To
| make 40% more?
| endisneigh wrote:
| We are talking about salaries, not some philosophical
| discussion. If your goal is to maximize lifetime earnings
| college is worth it, including the cost.
|
| I'm not sure what your point is.
| mannerheim wrote:
| If it's worth it, they can pay for that burden
| themselves.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Yes, and most college graduates fully pay off their debt.
| The issue is overblown. The average student debt is 30k
|
| https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-
| for-co...
|
| It's not some insurmountable number.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Discovering an asset's value is marked down is tragic for
| the owner, but the reality of a free market. A college
| degree is the new taxi medallion.
| betwixthewires wrote:
| It's beyond a taxi medallion. Before uber you had to have
| one. With college that's never been true. The thing that
| propped up the whole industry was high school counselors
| scaring kids into thinking they'll be burger flippers and
| ditch diggers for the rest of their lives without it, and
| that's never ever been true. The number of young people
| I've known who had existential dread at the thought of
| not going, beyond reason, peoples lives were destroyed by
| all this.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| There are _a lot_ of companies out there that mandate a
| degree for roles that don 't require one. That creates
| artificial demand for an expensive credential, and of
| course a loan industry happy to issue debt for said
| required credentials (it's a racket). I put forth that if
| you exposed companies to the cost of that credentialing
| in some way (a tax of some sort on roles that mandate
| higher education), those roles would suddenly not require
| a degree, or on the job training would replace it.
| bumby wrote:
| The taxing of credentials is an interesting concept I
| haven't heard before. What do you think some potentially
| unintended consequences be?
|
| It made me think of the way some professional licenses
| work. The payment to keep the credential is essentially a
| tax. Some employers won't list the credential on a job
| description because then they'd be required to pay for
| it. But they only hire people with said credential,
| essentially shifting the tax on the individual and
| creating a kind of shadow job hiring process where the
| people being turned away may not be sure that getting the
| credential would open the door for them.
| betwixthewires wrote:
| That's true, but it's largely the result of a glut of
| degrees in the job market, as well as high unemployment.
| As people start figuring this out, and as demand for work
| outpaces supply (both are starting to happen) you're
| going to see the smart employers drop these shenanigans
| and the dumb ones go out of business or start paying
| degrees what they're worth if they insist on it.
| hahaxdxd123 wrote:
| Is it arguing to ask for sources now? LMAO
|
| > post random fact
|
| > source?
|
| > no source, but here's more random facts
| nfw2 wrote:
| I can provide hard data on this if the original commenter
| doesn't want to. I went to a bootcamp called Hack
| Reactor.
|
| My salary immediately doubled and has since quadrupled in
| the 5 years since I attended. It isn't be a great option
| for everyone, and not every attendee has had a great
| outcome. But it can work for those with an affinity for
| analytical work and willingness to work 70-hour weeks for
| 12 straight weeks.
|
| Hack Reactor has made their outcome statistics public.
| https://www.hackreactor.com/outcomes
| watwut wrote:
| > This is rapidly changing. Also, there are also skilled
| trades that are mostly women (e.g. cosmetologist, many
| medical roles).
|
| As a woman who likes trades like manual work as hobby - a
| lot of those do actually depends on physical strength. At
| hobby level it does not matter that much, but to achieve
| actual commercial productivity is simply much harder
| without all those muscles.
| gunfighthacksaw wrote:
| When I did longshoreman for the summer there were but 2
| women in the bull pen.
|
| One was a heavier older lady, imagine a burly dinner lady
| and you've probably got her. The other woman was maybe in
| her 30s and looked trim, but she had arms gnarled like
| branches and you could see a six pack through her tshirt.
|
| Mad respect for women who choose a profession like that,
| but it needs to be a lifestyle and it will consume you.
| As an untrained man with a normal (assumed) amount of
| testosterone, my body adapted over two shifts of swinging
| 70lb metal bars around.
| tempest_ wrote:
| With regards to 1
|
| A lot of the trades are hard on your body. By the time you
| are 45-50 your knees could be wrecked and that makes it
| hard to do service work like electric/HVAC.
|
| There are an argument that desk work isnt healthy either
| but that is a different discussion.
| subsubzero wrote:
| alot of engineers(and other tech employees) are forced
| out of the field due to ageism by 45-50 so its a wash.
| bumby wrote:
| Do you mean software engineers specifically? It seems
| like other engineering domains are kinder to oldies
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| Not unless they're dogmatic about the language they're
| developing in, they aren't. I ran into people ALL THE
| EFFING TIME as a recruiter who refused to train in
| another language or environment because they were going
| to make less money if they moved on, even as the market
| for their current skillset dwindled to nothing.
|
| That's a completely different issue from having injured
| your back or shoulder or knee so often that you need
| surgical corrections just so you can remain functional at
| a resting state.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| If you're unable to work "in the field" as a
| trades(wo)man, you can always switch over to supervisory
| or inspection works or go the fully office job route
| (=planning, architectural offices).
| tempest_ wrote:
| You definitely can (and you should if you have the
| ability!) but there are by their nature fewer supervisory
| roles available and the skill sets, at least my
| experience, don't overlap that much.
| 01100011 wrote:
| As a 46 year old I agree, but I'll say that most
| tradesmen I knew have either moved on to owning/managing
| or have switched careers. Overall they've done very well.
|
| Also, IME, tradesmen always have the nicest houses
| regardless of income because they or someone they can
| trade with will do top quality work for barely any
| compensation.
| vkou wrote:
| > As a 46 year old I agree, but I'll say that most
| tradesmen I knew have either moved on to owning/managing
| or have switched careers. Overall they've done very well.
|
| Suvivorship bias?
|
| I imagine that those that are still in the trades are
| managers/owners. Those that have blown out knees, but
| don't have the skills to manage/own/washed out a decade
| ago... Are not.
|
| There's not enough room in the trades for every person
| who did work in their 20s to manage/own in the 40s,
| unless you have a lot of attrition.
| kadomony wrote:
| Sounds like Lambda School.
| chaostheory wrote:
| > 1. Many trades also pay like crap and have a very limited
| window in which you can do it.
|
| Which is why the parent comment specifically mentioned
| "skilled trades". If you're not familiar with the term, think
| plumber or electrician instead of roofer or outdoor
| landscaper. The working window for skilled trades is also far
| greater than software engineering.
| endisneigh wrote:
| There are skilled trades that don't pay well. In any case
| there's no canonical list of "skilled trades" to begin
| with.
|
| I fail to see how you can be an electrician longer than a
| software engineer, but even if that was true there are far
| more careers a college degree enable that pay more.
| chaostheory wrote:
| imo a "skilled trade" involves a hard to learn skill that
| is in high demand. Consequently, the demand yields a
| higher salary than a commodity "non-high skilled" trade
| that is not high in demand.
|
| > I fail to see how you can be an electrician longer than
| a software engineer
|
| Because electrical components and systems do not evolve
| and change as fast as software constructs, neither does
| plumbing.
|
| > but even if that was true there are far more careers a
| college degree enable that pay more.
|
| That's debatable when you account for student loans
| paired with less marketable degrees. Otherwise, I feel
| that student debt wouldn't be an issue.
| bluGill wrote:
| Many skilled trades are not that hard to learn, those who
| know it just pretend they are hard to keep people out.
|
| Of course with an engineering background I know how to
| read all the different tables and understand where the
| numbers came from. That might give me an advantage, but I
| can learn to do most of them pretty quickly if I want.
| (they are faster than me because they tend to have the
| tables memorized)
| chaostheory wrote:
| > Many skilled trades are not that hard to learn
|
| If they're not hard to learn, then imo it's not a
| "skilled trade".
|
| > those who know it just pretend they are hard to keep
| people out.
|
| > Of course with an engineering background I know how to
| read all the different tables and understand where the
| numbers came from.
|
| If you're an EE and you're referring to electricians, I
| would argue that electrical work is not an easy concept
| for most of the population which is one reason for its
| market demand.
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| Most "skilled trades" are gated by some form of
| licensure, not actual difficulty.
| chaostheory wrote:
| It's "gated" to ensure that the individual actually
| possesses those skills and can perform theses tasks
| safely and comply with safety standards. As someone who's
| immigrated from the developing world, I can tell you
| horror stories when it's less regulated. I'm not a fan of
| regulation, but there is a minimum level needed to ensure
| trust.
| aspaceman wrote:
| They are very hard to learn in many cases.
|
| God I'd love to throw some of you nerds in a machine
| shop. Way more math and thought in those places then you
| all are giving them credit for.
| nfw2 wrote:
| The study you linked is over 10 years old. Furthermore, it is
| using lifetime earnings as the core metric, which means they
| are pulling in data about people who earned their degrees
| like 50 year years ago.
|
| All the data that currently exists shows better outcomes for
| students that go to college. One would expect this even if
| college had no benefit to students because the population of
| students that go to college is pre-selected. Before they
| attend, students that go to college, on average, demonstrate
| better analytic skills than the students that do not go to
| college. They also, on average, have access to more existing
| wealth and other resources through their family.
|
| In the absence of perfect data (which is almost always the
| case in sociology), it is reasonable to look at case studies
| to try to make sense of reality. It is not bad practice. It
| is what Harvard Business school does. It's what product
| managers and UX designers do when creating products. It's
| what marketing teams do when selling products.
|
| Feel free to degree with the interpretation of anecdotal
| data, but statements should not be dismissed out-of-hand
| because no p-value accompanies them.
| hooande wrote:
| > Average College grads make more money over their lifetime,
| period.
|
| Stop this. The _most accurate_ predictor of a person 's
| lifetime income is the income of their parents. Children of
| wealthy parents are more likely to go to college. It's like
| saying "People who drive expensive cars in high school make
| more money over their lifetime, period".
|
| I question the statistical literacy of people who make the
| argument that going to college has a significant causal
| impact on future earnings.
| endisneigh wrote:
| I didn't say there's a causal impact, I said that average
| college grads make more money.
| hooande wrote:
| The kid that's driving a new BMW at age 16 will make more
| money than everyone else too. Do you suggest that kids
| buy BMWs in order to increase their lifetime earning
| potential?
| endisneigh wrote:
| I don't see the relevance - even among the poorest
| college grads have higher lifetime earnings:
|
| https://research.upjohn.org/empl_research/vol23/iss3/1/
|
| again, college grads make more money across all
| demographic groups. Not sure what you're arguing
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> Stop this.... I question the statistical literacy..._
|
| Ugh. Why?
|
| You asked for a statistically grounded conversation, so
| let's do that.
|
| Let's start, for example, with pdf page 25 (and surrounding
| context) of https://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/causal_ed
| uc_earnings.p...
|
| The analysis done in that paper is a good starting point
| for a productive conversation. We could discuss the bounds
| on various coefficients and decide whether the conditional
| statements about those coefficients made in the paper have
| clear answers in either direction. Or we could critique the
| various modeling assumptions. Etc.
| hooande wrote:
| Section 3.6. "Family background" of the pdf you linked to
| discusses the impact that parent's educational attainment
| has on how much money someone earns as a result of going
| to college, not whether they attend college. It's not
| used as a control in a way that's relevant to this
| discussion.
|
| Do you have another study?
|
| Either way, it's a fact that parental income is the best
| predictor of future income. Not educational attainment.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> best predictor_
|
| But why? What are the _CAUSAL_ relationships between
| parental earnings, educational attainment, and child
| earnings? The children of doctors are more likely to
| become doctors, but saying that educational attainment is
| therefore less related to doctoring than parental
| occupation is obviously a bit absurd. Just because a
| parent paves the path doesn 't mean that educational
| attainment is irrelevant to walking that path. And anyone
| who makes it through med school and residency has the
| option to enjoy high earnings, regardless of parental
| income.
|
| The MD example, for the curious and humble reader
| interested in Truth rather than Winning, makes it
| abundantly clear why section 3.6 of the linked paper asks
| a question that's directly relevant to untangling these
| causal links.
|
| _> Do you have another study?_
|
| There's an _entire literature base_ on exactly this
| question. "lifetime earnings parental earnings
| education" returns 130K results on Google Scholar. But,
| to be blunt, I don't think you're interested in learning
| anything. I think you're interested in Winning the
| thread. So I'm not posting for your benefit; that would
| be futile. I'm posting for the benefit of intellectually
| curious readers.
| shkkmo wrote:
| > What are the CAUSAL relationships between parental
| earnings, educational attainment, and child earnings?
|
| Social network, safety net, family experience with
| college, etc.... There are plenty of reasons why class
| mobility is imperfect. [Edit: I, for example, had access
| to summer jobs in highschool through my parents'
| professional network that were not as easily available to
| other people.]
|
| > There's an entire literature base on exactly this
| question. "lifetime earnings parental earnings education"
| returns 130K results on Google Scholar.
|
| Yes, but you chose a specific article to post to refute a
| specific claim. The article doesn't address that claim,
| so it is entirely reasonable to ask for a citation that
| does actually back up your argument. Your response here
| amounts to: "just go read the all the literature until
| you see I'm right" and is not constructive, even without
| the name calling.
|
| Edit: You seem to have substantially edited your comment.
| Thanks for removing the name calling but generally ghost
| edits like this are frowned upon here.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> Yes, but you chose a specific article to post to
| refute a specific claim._
|
| Yes it does! I think you're misreading OP's post.
|
| What was OP's claim?
|
| _> > The most accurate predictor of a person's lifetime
| income is the income of their parents. Children of
| wealthy parents are more likely to go to college. It's
| like saying "People who drive expensive cars in high
| school make more money over their lifetime, period"._
|
| OP's assertion about "best predictor" is true but
| irrelevant. The interesting question is _why?_
|
| OP asserts that the answer to that question is literally
| "for the same reason that rich kids drive BMWs".
|
| OP is asserting that college has the same causal effect
| as a parent purchasing a BMW for a child. I.e., none at
| all, it's just a proxy for parental wealth.
|
| That strikes me as an unlikely causal hypothesis.
|
| Could there perhaps be a reason other than parent income
| that the child of an MD drives a BMW to school? Probably
| not.
|
| But could there perhaps be a reason other than parent
| income that the child of an MD does well in their premed
| program? Seems likely.
|
| And indeed, the above article establishes a causal link
| that's directly relevant to falsifying that assertion,
| that college == bmw in terms of causal effect.
|
| Elsewhere, OP asks if the college wage premium persists
| across family backgrounds. I think perhaps something
| related to that question is what you perhaps read into
| their post. But that's not actually the claim they are
| actually making in that post.
|
| (BTW: CWP and PEP are positive for students from low
| income backgrounds... these are just numbers you can look
| up... why am I the thread secretary for basic
| statistics?)
| shkkmo wrote:
| I simply do not see a anything in that study that refutes
| that college is just a proxy for parental income. The
| study only discusses parental background in terms of
| parental education and I don't see any controlling for
| parental income (though those two factors are clearly
| correlated, but are not identical and conflate them in
| several places.)
|
| In reality, a significant part of the correlation between
| of college and is indeed due to college being a partial
| proxy for parental wealth. At the same time a significant
| part of the correlation between parental wealth and child
| income is to the that same proxy.
|
| Even when you control for parental wealth, there are
| large heterogeneities in the effect of college on income
| in different groups. This makes it hard to argue for a
| simple, direct causal link between college and income.
|
| While I think you and me tend to agree on this subject, I
| think you should focus less on being the "thread
| secretary" and more on understanding the opposing
| argument and clearly explaining your argument rather than
| posting dense statistical papers with no analysis and
| using abstruse acronyms.
| hooande wrote:
| This is a particularly pernicious misunderstanding
| because it leads people to believe that they have to take
| out loans to go to college or they will earn less money.
| Saying "People who do X make more money" can have
| consequences if that statement isn't necessarily true.
|
| What you want is a study that shows that people from
| lower income quintiles that go to college have a higher
| lifetime earning than people from the same quintile that
| didn't go to college. Maybe that exists? if it did, I'd
| imagine the pro college people would be waving it around
| everywhere.
|
| Using Google Scholar to find relevant research is a great
| habit. but you really have to read it to make sure it
| says what you think it says
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> What you want is a study that shows that people from
| lower income quintiles that go to college have a higher
| lifetime earning than people from the same quintile that
| didn 't go to college. Maybe that exists? if it did, I'd
| imagine the pro college people would be waving it around
| everywhere._
|
| Yes, there is a large college wage premium for students
| in lower income quintiles. The most that can be said is
| that it's smaller, but still quite large.
|
| I assumed the point of contention was a more nuanced
| question about causation, since the above is just a
| simple factual question that can be checked without any
| sort of analysis.
| caddemon wrote:
| I agree "people who go to college make more money" is not
| a helpful thing to be telling kids, but I think it would
| be much more fruitful to pose the question as comparing
| the outcomes of different fields of study (which could
| also include specific trades), rather than questioning
| the utility of college entirely.
| shkkmo wrote:
| > Either way, it's a fact that parental income is the
| best predictor of future income. Not educational
| attainment.
|
| Sure, but they are interrelated factors and they way they
| effect the distribution is complicated. This study was
| linked elsewhere and does control for parent's income: (I
| didn't vet the methodology or data, just looking at what
| their reported results say.)
|
| https://research.upjohn.org/empl_research/vol23/iss3/1/
|
| One of the reasons that parental income is such a strong
| predictor of child income is because parental income has
| a strong effect on how much college will increase your
| income.
|
| Interestingly enough, that effect is quite disparate
| based on more than just parental income.
|
| The study says that low income whites see only a 12%
| boost to income from college while high income whites see
| a 131% boost to income from college. Interestingly,
| blacks show an even higher boost to income from college,
| 175%, and parental income had no statistically
| significant effect on this boost.
|
| Also interesting is how those effects play out when you
| look at different parts of the income distribution.
| Parental income increases the average effect of college,
| but doesn't significantly affect the median effect. Thus
| a lot of the increase to the effect of college on average
| incomes [edit: for children of higher income parents] is
| from gaining access to the long tail of very high income
| outcomes.
|
| So the answer is if you are a poor white male, college is
| far less valuable than if you are female, rich or black
| (in increasing order of college effect size.)
| [deleted]
| jorblumesea wrote:
| The purpose of college is partly workforce training but also
| just general education. To see college as solely providing
| competitive dollar careers seems to misunderstand a large part
| of higher educational purpose. In theory at least, the liberal
| arts are something far more than just "can I work at FB".
| RealityVoid wrote:
| Yes, thank you! I find the point of view where college is
| just job training so myopic.
| varelse wrote:
| In the short term I agree with you that trades pay very well,
| $250,000 a year even at the higher end. Even more if you're
| willing to risk your life on power lines or windmills.
|
| But that's a starting wage in tech in Seattle or the Bay area
| for an engineer that's in demand and it only goes up from
| there. Those engineers that are in demand all have
| undergraduate degrees, it's a huge virtue signal for hiring for
| now. A new college graduate with one year of industry
| experience got poached for $400k by a competitor. And that
| doesn't begin to cover what AI superstars make straight out of
| school.
|
| Ironically as someone in the later phases of my tech career, I
| am increasingly interested in trade skills over tech skills.
| And doubly ironically there's a lot of intellectual overlap.
| ptero wrote:
| One big issue with making a no-college a viable option is that
| in the US the school education is absolutely atrocious. In many
| colleges the first year of science or engineering degree
| classes focus on providing a decent background that should have
| been taught at schools.
|
| This needs to be fixed for the school-only path to be viable.
| kube-system wrote:
| Public schools in the US vary from "absolutely atrocious" to
| "absolutely great" depending on where you live. The colleges
| that select students only from the latter do not waste time
| re-teaching high school material.
| WalterBright wrote:
| > which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes
|
| Education degrees and Journalism degrees rank near the bottom
| of pay.
|
| If you want a good starting salary, invest in a STEM major.
|
| Above all, google "starting salaries for major XXXXX" before
| picking one. Sheesh!
| tinalumfoil wrote:
| > She made $45k year one, and a year later is the director of
| marketing at her company making over $100k/yr
|
| If OP's daughter got a CS degree after two years she'd have
| made $0 and be $30k in the hole for state school tuition
| ($100k+ for private school). By my calculation she's $100k
| minus boot camp cost out of the hole.
|
| According to Google the median income for a bachelor's degree
| is $100k, which includes experienced people in their working
| prime. So I think OP has a pretty good counterexample.
|
| Also, not everyone wants to maximize their income. Comp sci
| now is what finance used to be, but not everyone has the
| moral framework or dedication to money where they can just
| Google highest paying jobs and choose the top one.
| WalterBright wrote:
| The point is, don't pick a major, spend 4 years and $$$$$,
| and _then_ complain that one didn 't know what the starting
| salaries would be.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| > Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track
| jobs.
|
| Is this a problem that needs fixing? We don't have enough
| plumbers & electricians (for example), many in those fields are
| retiring and until lately there haven't been enough people
| entering those trades to replace those retiring. Now we're
| probably going to start seeing people enter those trades at a
| higher rate than in the recent past. These are very good paying
| jobs and often it's hard to find a plumber or electrician when
| you need one.
| jimmyjazz14 wrote:
| I don't think the first two are problems colleges need to fix I
| think its more of a matter that we need to change our mindset
| about who should be attending college maybe some people would
| be better off going the trade school route.
| zapataband1 wrote:
| Yeah we I read somewhere that in Germany 60% of students go
| into trades and they have seriously beefed up their programs.
| But yeah there is a stigma here in the US about trades, I
| think that's partly due to the social consequences of having
| insane wealth gaps and worshipping billionaires.
| deltree7 wrote:
| Huh? From Peter Thiel to Bill Gates to Steve Jobs to
| Zuckerburg, most billionaires don't push the college
| propaganda and have shown/encouraged path without college
| education.
|
| It's only the pseudo-social scientists who can't do proper
| data analysis (finding out the real confounding variable)
| that push the college propaganda
| salemh wrote:
| justinator wrote:
| Don't forget Elizabeth Holmes!
| larkost wrote:
| Not only that, but depending on which state you are in in
| Germany (and Austria) you get routed at around 4th grade.
| If the teachers decide that you are academically fit for it
| then you go on to the Gymnasium, which prepares you for
| college, often with some focus for your class (e.g.:
| mathematics, arts, or science). If those same teachers
| decide that you are not up to college, but are still smart
| enough for something skilled, then you go on to Realschule,
| which still has some focus on academics, but is steering
| you to something like being a secretary, or a generic
| office worker. And finally there is the Hauptschule track.
| Here you are being groomed for something more involved with
| labor. The academics are not nearly so rigorous, and there
| is almost always the expectation that you will be steered
| into an apprenticeship for the final 4 years of what we (in
| the U.S.) would have as High School. Some of these
| apprenticeships can be quite prestigious (e.g.: the BMW
| technician school in Munich), but many of them are pretty
| pedestrian (e.g.: learning to run agricultural equipment).
|
| For most people this routing when they are 10 (or so)
| decides what routes are open to them later in life. There
| are exceptions to this (my host sister went to Realschule,
| and later took the Abiture, the the test that got her into
| college), but they are pretty rare.
|
| I have always been a bit leery of choices made so early in
| life, but it works pretty well in Germany.
| muffinman26 wrote:
| It actually doesn't work that great in Germany. The
| college dropout rate is about 28% (https://researchgate.n
| et/publication/267340378_Student_Drop-...). The
| Hauptschule and Realschule routes seem much better
| designed than the US, but in terms of predicting who is
| suitable for college Germany isn't doing a very good job.
| notch656a wrote:
| 28% is much lower than the ~37% failure rate to graduate
| in 6 years in US.
|
| In somewhere like Iran you may see very high graduation
| rates in part because you may need to be selected as best
| student (a former employer I interviewed with, the owner
| got into college because he was best math student in a
| class of something like 1000 children.)
|
| Dropout rate because of failure to adapt, of course,
| would be a good thing. Those who aren't fit for a career
| in engineering for instance were rapidly ejected into a
| different program from my public college I went to (like
| 25+% ejected first year, memory says it was more like
| 50%), which meant very few people wasted lots of money on
| a dead career path.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehran_Farzanegan_School
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allameh_Helli_High_Schools
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Organization_for_D
| eve...
| muffinman26 wrote:
| The point of the split for Gymnasium is supposed to be to
| only admit those students who would successfully adapt,
| though. Attending college also requires passing the
| Abitur, which shows skill in the areas you are planning
| to study. A failure to understand engineering topics
| should show up in the topics chosen for the Abitur.
| (Similar to the choice of A level topics in the UK.)
|
| Somewhat relatedly, college in Germany is more focused on
| the theoretical than it is in the US. A lot of
| engineering college programs in the US would be closer to
| a German technical school than a German college.
| notch656a wrote:
| I understand. I worry that the more you lower the false
| positive (accepted to college but uncapable), the greater
| you raise the false negative (denied college path but
| capable).
|
| I very much appreciated the way my public college worked.
| Very few who started electrical engineering finished. But
| they would accept damn near anyone. The few that survived
| had the world in their pocket.
|
| >A lot of engineering college programs in the US would be
| closer to a German technical school than a German
| college.
|
| Must depend on the college. My experience, as well as
| most my peers, was that engineering was about 60% raw
| mathematics. There was so much math, I only use a small
| fraction of it today. Maybe 10% of the engineering degree
| was practical labs. The engineering technology programs
| are maybe what you're thinking of? They flip those
| numbers on their head. It's hard for me to imagine any 4
| year degree except mathematics and physics having more
| math than engineering programs I'm familiar with.
| Siira wrote:
| Iran uses comprehensive standardized exams to sort
| university admissions (the population of the test takers
| vary between 100k and 600k), but pretty much anyone with
| a STEM high-school degree can get admitted to some
| university. The worst universities are for-profits (still
| pretty cheap though, except a few very good programs in
| state universities that admit a few people by money), and
| they basically give you a degree for giving them your
| money and showing up on classes. Since the universities
| get a more homogeneous level of talent, the standards
| they set is compatible with what most of their students
| can achieve, hence the high graduation rates.
|
| Another factor is that people take life more seriously in
| Iran (based on my very limited data on non-urban
| Iranians, and the US). There is virtually no social
| bubble that does not think degrees are important.
| "Engineer" is used as a general title of prestige, used
| as an umbrella term for anyone rich who is not a medical
| doctor.
| suyjuris wrote:
| Distributing children of age 10 into groups based on
| their predicted future academic achievement works about
| as well as you would expect (i.e. not very well), but the
| redeeming feature of the system is that it is reasonably
| fluid and you can change tracks. You could, for example,
| do Abitur after completing Realschule and then move on to
| university. It is also possible to change directly from
| Realschule to Gymnasium at basically any point, if you
| meet certain standards. (You can also take university
| classes while in Gymnasium without too much trouble.)
|
| There is also the Gesamtschule, which combines the three
| tracks (Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium) into a single
| school.
| ffwszgf wrote:
| This would never be allowed in America. the notion of
| "merit" in the US is associated with white supremacy and
| the idea that you can divide kids by their skills/grades
| will get you in trouble, especially if you do it that
| early.
|
| If for whatever reason the demographics at each track are
| not the same as those of the nation it will get called
| racist and shut down quick.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > the notion of "merit" in the US is associated with
| white supremacy
|
| In Germany, our system is far more inclusive at all
| levels which means we don't have that much of a problem
| with early stage ethnic discrimination. Not to say we
| don't have any problems at all (far from it, in fact!)
| but it's nowhere near as bad as in the US, and
| additionally for once we Germans don't have historical
| baggage that's keeping us down.
| oblio wrote:
| I heard that this year, at least in some regions, they're
| doing the Gymnasium assignments randomly (!) I know
| someone where their child qualified for Gymnasium but
| apparently it's not guaranteed this year due to lack of
| spots so there's going to be a lottery (!).
|
| This is in North Rhine-Westphalia.
| granshaw wrote:
| Part of the problem is the social stigma of not having a
| college degree. Not sure how to fix that
| stocknoob wrote:
| Yep. The GP thinks parents consider their child being a
| forklift driver vs teacher as equivalent outcomes if they
| pay the same?
| ksdale wrote:
| Would you be ashamed if your child was a forklift driver?
| The world needs people to do useful things, and we
| shouldn't shame people for doing useful things.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Not ashamed, but forklift driving will be automated
| sooner than teaching (probably way sooner). I'd prefer
| them to run the most lucrative business they can operate
| and accrue capital.
|
| I think at some point we'll all be screwed by automation
| (including teachers, developers, baristas and doctors)
| and too poor people won't have a reason to exist.
|
| Better to get rich and independent from society before we
| can print human-like workers in a factory.
| stocknoob wrote:
| No shame, I don't care what people do as long as it
| doesn't harm others. People should enjoy their lives.
|
| But, many (most?) people are status-conscious and equal
| pay != equal prestige. College is primarily about opening
| doors to higher prestige.
| indymike wrote:
| It is a crime that teachers are paid so poorly. No
| judgement was intended about career choices (I'm the GP).
| kristjansson wrote:
| Income over the next 4 quarters is, of course, the only
| factor by which one can distinguish occupations.
| mbesto wrote:
| Let's start with having the President not pledging for
| "college for all"
|
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/01/17/obam
| a...
| teawrecks wrote:
| Meanwhile in most of Europe, college is free. I wonder
| how their attendance rates have fared in comparison.
| mikem170 wrote:
| It is my understanding (based on what I know of Germany)
| that only certain degrees (mostly STEM) are free, and
| available to students who qualify (academically).
| giaour wrote:
| I recall that in France and Italy, tuition wasn't free,
| but it was on the order of ~200-300 euros per year. STEM
| degree tuition cost more since those students had more
| expensive facilities like laboratories.
|
| Take this anecdata with a grain of salt; it's nearly 20
| years old.
| Siira wrote:
| That's fair. If someone wants to get a degree in a
| "field" that is not contributing to the society's GDP,
| the degree is most likely only good as a signaling device
| for its holder. Paying their signaling cost out of the
| tax payer's pocket is lunacy.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| It's free if you're poor, otherwise it's cheap (think
| 3-5kEUR per year).
|
| The European governments didn't distort the market to
| make universities as grand and expensive as the American
| ones (where the price raised 1500% since the 80s).
|
| European universities are sad places which get the job
| done for relatively little money. You're still spending
| 3-5+ years of your life though, and that's a currency you
| can't earn more of.
| jackfruitpeel wrote:
| European universities are sad places? That's a broad and
| completely unfair brush to paint an entire continent
| with.
| exhilaration wrote:
| He said European universities are sad places, _that get
| the job done_. American universities are totally awesome
| places, with $10 million student centers and $20 million
| athletic facilities, they get the job done at a far, far
| higher cost to students.
| HPsquared wrote:
| It depends on the context: _having_ a college degree is
| stigmatized in some places.
| vmception wrote:
| These aren't colleges problem. US institutions are 300
| years old, they will survive this 60 year old meme, and go
| back to being meeting spots for the well-money and
| influential who also become the learned population.
| [deleted]
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> the social stigma of not having a college degree_
|
| People have been saying this for decades, but is it still
| really a thing? Perhaps on the coasts? If you're in a small
| or mid-sized city in the midwest or the south, it's almost
| exactly the opposite...
| ModernMech wrote:
| It's not so much a social stigma as it is different
| socialization. People who went to college use the
| experience to relate to one another long into adulthood.
|
| More than anything that's why students go to college
| (source: college students).
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| As in, we went to college together therefore we're
| friends and we refer each others / pass each other
| clients?
|
| That doesn't ring true for my case. I'm sure it's
| incredibly anecdotal but college level networking lasted
| 2 years top for me - and it was all ex-coworkers from
| there on.
| ModernMech wrote:
| No, what I mean is that people who went to college share
| a similar socialization process. I'm not talking about
| networking, I'm talking about culture. It's the same as
| people who went to high school versus people who were
| home schooled.
|
| Everything from bonding (or not) with your roommate, to
| going out late at night with your hallmates, to meeting
| boys/girls and dealing with the strange dramas that
| ensue, your first off campus party, cramming in the
| libraries at 4am for exams, hanging out in the [insert
| major] lounge and complaining about your professors,
| tailgating at football games... just all the little
| incidental things that are part of college life. People
| who went through college can automatically bond over
| their separate experiences of these things.
| kodah wrote:
| It absolutely is but it depends on the field. My first
| few years in software were filled with questions like,
| "Why didn't you finish?" We also continue to interview in
| ways that are more accommodating for college graduates
| and attendees, regardless of whether it's needed or not.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| I see. Makes sense. I was thinking more about "general
| social status", rather than job-specific stuff, because
| that's how I interpreted OP.
|
| _> We also continue to interview in ways that are more
| accommodating for college graduates and attendees,
| regardless of whether it 's needed or not._
|
| Wouldn't Leetcode-style interviewing be _more_
| egalitarian? Assuming self-taught people know their
| stuff, I guess? The alternative in other engineering
| disciplines is to just check the degree and do some soft
| interviews, right?
|
| Or do you mean something else?
| jimz wrote:
| I'm sure in some social circles or professions it is, but
| after college I've lived in Seattle, Boston, Brooklyn,
| and Las Vegas, and outside of the context where the
| existence of my degree is a necessity by virtue of state
| law in order to undertake the profession I was in, it
| really doesn't come up, ever. In part, it's probably
| because facebook had us all list our education
| particularly my cohort who needed a .edu email address to
| sign up, but even after I got off facebook and changed
| careers entirely, it's just not something that comes up.
| I don't know if there's simply a presumption that I'm
| "one of them" or because I have a social circle that
| isn't entirely homogeneous educationally, but I can't
| even really think of how the subject matter would come
| up, or why anyone should care.
| polygotdomain wrote:
| My degrees are not in CS related fields at all (both in
| Architecture). I know that just being able to "check the
| box" has gotten me in the door. Only a small handful of the
| places I've interviewed with over the last 10+ years have
| cared that my degrees weren't in CS. In some cases I've
| corrected them, "no, building architecture, not software
| architecture", and no one's seemed to care.
|
| While you don't have to have a degree to get into tech,
| having one certainly makes things easier
| scruple wrote:
| I'm in my early 40s. I dropped out of university. I've been
| programming professionally, in a wide range of contexts and
| in various industries and niche markets, for over 15 years.
| I still deal with the stigma associated with not having a
| college degree. It's not as frequent today as it was when I
| was at year 1-5, but it still comes up often enough that I
| get the sense it will never go away.
| j4yav wrote:
| Curious how it comes up? I'm 42 and dropped out at 16,
| and it has just never come up, nobody has ever asked me
| once. I'm not doubting your experience, just curious
| where our paths differed since it's such a stark
| contrast. I'm not a programmer but worked in ops, then
| product management, then CPO. Maybe it's something to do
| with that?
| yardie wrote:
| Possibly enterprise development. In my experience they
| are a lot more credentials driven then startups and
| boutique development firms. There are outliers like
| Microsoft, Netflix, Google. But you have a to be a truly
| outstanding developer without a degree rather than a
| pretty good one with a degree.
| scruple wrote:
| Yes, most of my work has been in fields that are highly
| credentialed.
| jnwatson wrote:
| I'm with you. In my professional career, I've had 2
| bosses that never went to college. Never been an issue.
| scruple wrote:
| I'm a Senior II and tech lead at work and I've always
| been on the programming track.
|
| Around ~22 months ago, I had a cold call from someone in
| HR asking me, "Did you finish your degree?" It was
| unusual. I'm not sure where they got the idea that I was
| "working on it" in the first place. This was happening
| around the same time that we had been acquired, so I
| imagine that it was related.
|
| More recently, around the end of last summer, a mid-level
| on my team had apparently heard from someone else that I
| didn't have a degree and was probing me about my
| experience, etc.
|
| It also came up in conversation during the Christmas
| holiday, with some friends, while playing an online game.
| This group of friends is also in tech, though they're a
| little younger than I am. In that conversation, they were
| surprised to learn that I didn't have a degree but held
| patents in the CV space (work done on a bootstrapped
| start-up that myself and a friend/co-founder worked on in
| the early/mid 2010s).
|
| There are other examples from the past but I don't really
| hang onto these sorts of things.
|
| I would add that I don't think any of these were bias or
| malicious or anything like that.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| I wouldn't call it stigma then.
|
| Sure, it may rarely come up in discussions but it doesn't
| imply someone is inferior to someone else.
|
| The kind of people who believes formal education trumps
| everything are not in touch with the reality of
| education.
|
| You probably did way more learning in your professional
| career than most graduates do during their degree.
| scruple wrote:
| That's probably a fair call out. I don't think that I can
| point to any recent personal examples of clear bias /
| stigma.
| oblio wrote:
| It is stigma because many people like these are in
| positions of power and they get to decide who passes the
| CV filter, for example.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| Maybe it's just your social circle. Nobody likes
| university in mine - and in the last 15 years no company
| I worked in required a degree. I met a few CTOs (in real
| companies, not startup "CTOs" with 3 engineers) without
| degrees.
|
| I took my degree in CS while I was working (lots of
| sleepless nights and ill prepared exams) and just because
| I didn't want to preclude myself from the opportunity of
| working for some big company with antiquated
| requirements.
| DerArzt wrote:
| Step one would be to re-asses what happens in highschools.
| I remember a decade ago when I was in highschool we had to
| do college prep stuff mandated by the state government that
| all but said that College was the only route.
| olyjohn wrote:
| This! When I was in high school, the school barely
| mentioned Running Start or the local trade school. My
| high school computer classes consisted of me learning
| from the way-underpaid and overworked IT guy, and not any
| actual teachers. The high school only had classes on
| Keyboarding, 10-key, and a handful of Macs that had some
| Photoshop on them for the photography students...
|
| Meanwhile Running Start gets you your 2 year degree by
| the time you graduate, so 2 years less debt, and 2 years
| ahead of everybody else. The trade school had game
| programming classes, automotive, electronics classes...
| which were things I was actually interested in learning
| at the time and were not remotely available at the HS
| itself.
|
| But if you do either of those two things, the high school
| loses and FTE count, and the money gets diverted to the
| other school. So the HS tends to hardly tell anybody
| about them. Not to mention, they made the trade school
| seem like a place where delinquents go who can't handle
| high school and get into college. Looking back, I wish I
| had known more about the trade school, because there were
| so many more interesting classes there!
| indymike wrote:
| I solved it by starting my own company :-)
| jeremy_wiebe wrote:
| > 4) Student loans are a horror that needs to stop. Young
| people should not be put in debt-bondage. Imagine America's
| financial health if we let young people start families and
| careers debt free.
|
| Nobody has forced anyone to take a student loan. In fact, many
| young adults would probably learn a lot about life, financial
| management, and restraint if they saved for college and waited
| till they could afford it instead of going straight to college
| and going into huge amounts of debt. Generally society doesn't
| condone going into debt carelessly in other situations so I
| don't understand how we give (or want to give) students a free
| pass for racking up thousands (or hundreds of thousands) in
| loans.
| criley2 wrote:
| >3) College is way over priced. They claim graduates make 40%
| over their lifetime vs. non grads. JP Morgan Chase did a study
| two years ago that shows kids that had a job, any job before
| age 18 make 35% more than their peers over their lifetime
| regardless of degree.
|
| Having a job before 18 and getting a bachelors degree are not
| mutually exclusive, in fact, recent data suggests that about
| half of all people attending undergraduate school are employed.
| I personally was employed by 16 and went to college at 18,
| keeping a job for the entire time to offset some of the costs.
|
| I do agree that student loans are a heinous tool though, even
| moderate loans accrue huge interest during a formative time in
| your career and prevent you from saving for retirement during
| the vital years when your investments have the most time to
| mature.
| starwind wrote:
| There shouldn't be a divide between skilled trades and
| bachelor's degrees. If I could add a creative writing minor to
| math degree, why was it impossible for me to add an aircraft
| maintenance certification through my school?
| sokoloff wrote:
| Because the AMT course is typically 24 months long by itself
| (for a combined airframe and powerplant certificate)? It's 30
| months of relevant, supervised maintenance work experience or
| a qualified AMT school program, which are often 24 months
| full-time.
|
| That's far more time than a typical creative writing minor.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| You've not really addressed the spirit of the question,
| they're not asking about aircraft maintenance really,
| they're asking why academic courses and more hands-on
| practical/technical courses can't be mixed?
|
| I guess in the UK you'd try for an apprenticeship with day
| release to college for the academic elements (or take a job
| in a technical field and do an Open University or other
| distance learning course for the academic side?).
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _they 're asking why academic courses and more hands-on
| practical/technical courses can't be mixed?_
|
| I think they did answer this: it's because hands-on
| practical/technical skills are hard to learn and people
| who can teach them are generally expensive.
| ghaff wrote:
| I'd add that while a full certification is quite hard to
| learn and takes a lot of time, schools absolutely have
| hands on courses. I have a mechanical engineering degree
| and two of my courses were very hands on with machine
| shop and building something for a contest.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Education is also expensive, arguably what the hell are
| we paying for then?
| sokoloff wrote:
| I tried to and answered the way I did because I think a
| lot of people vastly underestimate the time and effort
| required to get certified for a trade. "Why can't I just
| add an MD to my engineering degree?" seems like a
| ridiculous question, but "Why can't I add a plumber's or
| electrician's or AMT license/certificate to my degree?"
| is treated as "well, that's a good question; you ought to
| be able to!"
|
| (They specifically asked about a _certification_ not just
| "some coursework".)
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| I don't think this is right, basic domestic electrician
| training in UK takes 2 months. Many trades don't have a
| lisence, i.e. bike mechanic.
|
| I think the problem is in the culture of these
| institutions, they are not prepared for getting iut of a
| classroon and getting their hand dirty.
| throwaway0a5e wrote:
| Certification time varies greatly.
|
| A pretty good set of AWS welding certs can be done in 6wk
| of night classes.
|
| You can't get paid money to install a toilet in some
| states until you've started as the jobsite bitch, worked
| your way up and payed years of your life into the system
| to get in a position to even be eligible to take the
| test.
|
| The latter tends to only happen after regulatory capture.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> why was it impossible for me to add an aircraft
| maintenance certification through my school?_
|
| Because schools can't bullshit maintenance certification
| curricula and aren't willing to pay qualified faculty.
|
| See also: the alarming number of schools where CS and Data
| Science courses are still taught by mathematics faulty
| (because they can't find CS faculty who are willing to work
| for $70K).
|
| This model of "pay unqualified people to teach a good enough
| version of the course and hope our consumers don't notice
| they're being shafted" only works in unregulated fields. Most
| trades are not unregulated.
| xyzzyz wrote:
| > Because schools can't bullshit maintenance certification
| curricula and aren't willing to pay qualified faculty.
|
| Yeah, the crucial thing that most people miss in these
| discussion is that most schools don't actually effectively
| teach what they claim to be teaching. Teachers and students
| go through the motions, but the students don't actually end
| up learning much of anything, and the teachers who
| nevertheless give them passing grade face no consequence.
| If a typical high school started offering aircraft
| maintenance certification, instead of increasing the
| graduates value on job market, it would simply make the
| certification to be held as worthless.
| yardie wrote:
| For most schools CS is literally in the Math Department.
| And traditional CS is a lot more math than the contemporary
| CS, which should really be called SWE.
|
| My alma mater finally merged CS and SWE, then moved the new
| CS/SWE degree to Engineering because engineering basically
| prints money.
| lokar wrote:
| What do teachers and forklift operators make after 10/20/30
| years?
| carlmcqueen wrote:
| My wife has a doctorate in occupational therapy and works as
| a hand therapist, when pay is the only metric looked at you
| really do miss a lot.
|
| The body condition of construction workers, fork lift
| operators and even welders is worn down and in pain.
|
| Not to mention, they have to live with unfair medical
| standards. When she does hand strength assessments for
| workers comp the number is based on natural average. So lets
| say a normal office worker squeezes on the test at a score of
| 100, a construction worker squeezes at 320. Workers comp says
| they can return to work if they can squeeze at like 120.
| Which terrifies the construction workers but they won't get
| any more time off.
| oblio wrote:
| Yeah, the only winning options long term, as a skilled
| worker is to get out before 40 and either start your own
| company or become a sort of project manager at a bigger
| company.
|
| Neither options are super easy.
| fnord77 wrote:
| there's been a proliferation of administrators in colleges. the
| ratio of administrators to professors/instructors has been
| steadily climbing since the 70s. I see this as a form of
| corruption.
| moneywoes wrote:
| Apparently this is where most of the tuition cost is going
| honksillet wrote:
| Government needs to get out of the student loan game entirely.
| mmcconnell1618 wrote:
| Medicare in the US has negotiated rates they will pay for
| medical services. The "retail" price is very often extremely
| high but knocked down to what the government agrees to pay
| for Medicare patients. A similar system for college loans
| would allow the government to still offer loans but with caps
| on how much colleges could charge for tuition to students
| with government loans. The problem is uncapped tuition and
| loan terms that allow lenders to offer tremendously large
| sums of money to students in a low risk way because the
| students can't declare bankruptcy or discharge the loans in
| any easy way.
| kube-system wrote:
| Many of the largest schools in the US are government
| institutions. There's no need to negotiate prices, state
| legislatures can just set the price.
|
| https://c0arw235.caspio.com/dp/b7f930003542e89a6fb844548260
| lend000 wrote:
| Re: numbers 3) and 4). It's a hard trade-off. I believe in
| equality of opportunity in education, which infinite guaranteed
| government loans do provide to someone willing to take on that
| burden (which often ends up being a bad decision for most
| people). However, the very act of guaranteeing unlimited loans
| to everyone creates a very simple economic effect in which
| colleges will grow in expense to meet the supply of money. Look
| at all the ridiculously nice buildings, statues, grounds, and
| administrator salaries at even C-tier colleges.
|
| The alternative, IMO, is to make state run schools tuition
| free, but there's no guarantee you'll get in. Use some
| relatively objective metrics like the SAT and relative standing
| in high school class to determine eligibility. Then get rid of
| federal lending altogether. Apparently this is more similar to
| some of the European models. Under this model, any highly
| gifted but poor person worried about debt can get a higher
| education. Granted, the gifted person is also generally okay in
| the current model, because they probably end up making enough
| to handle their debt. It's the less gifted person who still
| wants and benefits from a higher education, but can't get into
| the free state school, who benefits in this model, because the
| removal of unqualified lending will bring down prices of less
| competitive colleges.
|
| But in the end, college as we know it, as great of an
| experience as it is for many of us, is likely becoming obsolete
| (in its current form, that is) with the rise of the internet
| and the ability to learn just about anything in your garage
| with an internet connection and a computer.
| balls187 wrote:
| > 2) There are better options than college for many.
|
| I agree there are better options than college for many. Thought
| if I were a betting man, on average, College is the better
| decision.
|
| > One of my daughters did a six month digital marketing
| bootcamp. She made $45k year one, and a year later is the
| director of marketing at her company making over $100k/yr.
|
| I'm curious how old she was when she completed that bootcamp,
| and if she had a degree in another field, and/or experience. I
| just cant fathom a 20 year being a marketing director making
| $100,000.
|
| In nearly 20 years professionally, I have worked with MANY
| people between the ages of 18-22 (many of which themselves
| attend or attended prestigious schools), and none showed the
| aptitude, skill and leadership required to be director at that
| time.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| Chances are she is working at a very small company, so
| "Director" doesn't carry much weight. Otherwise I would be
| similarly baffled.
| balls187 wrote:
| The title inflation would make sense, but also paying
| director of marketing at a small company $100,000?
|
| Glassdoor has that salary around $75k on average for a
| small company.
| throw10920 wrote:
| Your first three points are very strong and insightful, but I
| somewhat object to your fourth. Individuals get loans for
| things that pay off in the long-term regularly - cars and
| houses, for the most part. I don't see any reason why college
| should be different, _especially_ because the alternative is
| for taxpayers to subsidize it.
|
| The real issues are twofold: first, student loans are
| underregulated and very predatory in a way that car loans and
| mortgages are not; second, like you said in your third point,
| college is _way_ overpriced, with the cost of it going up about
| an order of magnitude over the past few decades with no
| discernable increase in quality (see the excellent
| _Consideration On Cost Disease_ for more[1]).
|
| If education was 10x cheaper and student loan rates were 3-5% a
| year, you wouldn't _need_ the public to fund education - and
| even if you wanted to, it 'd be a _far_ easier time selling
| that idea than trying to convince people to fund undergraduate
| degrees to the tune of $100k+ per student.
|
| [1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-
| cost...
| artful-hacker wrote:
| I think a third real issue is also important, the 'undue
| hardship' burden necessary to get rid of student loans
| through bankruptcy needs to be dropped.
| ksdale wrote:
| Exactly, people get loans for houses and cars, and the
| banks make damn sure you're a good credit risk. For college
| loans, it's _literally_ the opposite. Since the loans are
| so hard to get rid of, the only incentive is to increase
| the number and size of the loans.
|
| The issue is that if lenders looked at creditworthiness for
| college loans the way they do for mortgages, either the
| price of college would have to decline precipitously, or
| they would trust far fewer people with that amount of
| money.
| throw10920 wrote:
| Very good points - I had no idea of this crazy situation
| for student loans.
|
| So, perhaps, "student loans" need to go (in the sense of
| all of the awful regulation (or lack thereof) around
| them), but not necessarily "loans to students to earn a
| four-year degree".
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| "the alternative is for taxpayers to subsidize it."
|
| You already are subsidising it by providing loans that cannot
| be paid off before death.
|
| Just need to add debt prisons and we'll be back at 18th
| century class society.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| "Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track
| jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month
| apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year
| degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr...
| which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes."
|
| With the forklift you will stay at 45k forever and probably
| make less every year whereas for the teacher this is a starting
| salary and will go up. Talk to real blue collar workers and
| from most you will hear a not very rosy picture. Pay stagnates,
| management treats them like crap, terrible working conditions,
| very hard on the body so getting older is difficult.
|
| Unless you are a business owner or in a very good union blue
| collar jobs aren't much fun.
| [deleted]
| atlgator wrote:
| I mean, ok, but let's not base our entire view on one trade,
| if you can even call forklift operation a skilled trade.
| Plumbers, electricians, carpenters, HVAC techs all have
| upward mobility from apprentice to journeyman to foreman to
| owning their own businesses. Apprentice level electricians
| make about $75k in Alaska with zero experience. Foreman
| electricians managing commercial electrical jobs make about
| $175k. YMMV per state or metro but that's some decent growth
| IMO, especially considering no college education requirement.
|
| I agree that the jobs are tough in the apprentice years. You
| are literally doing the grunt work for that trade, but a) you
| are getting paid to learn, and b) if you start right out of
| high school you are still young and able-bodied.
| Apprenticeships only last 2-4 years typically. You could be a
| licensed electrician at 22 years old.
| lumost wrote:
| You are describing good Union work. Anecdotally these jobs
| appear tough to get into from family who work in various
| trades, in construction such jobs are tough to get into and
| tougher to hold onto ( eventually the work dries up as
| construction dwindles )
|
| Unionized manufacturing does much better, with steady
| employment that can exceed 200/hr for the right work. These
| days you can pretty much only get such jobs via connection
| as they aren't creating more of these jobs very frequently.
|
| Source: The 200/hr figure was based on underwater welding
| for USN ships.
| newfonewhodis wrote:
| While your (completely valid) points address the economics of
| college, it misses the connections and friendships you make
| through college. It's the best way for most people to be thrown
| around thousands of people to find and build their community.
|
| All that to say, if the economics of college were better, even
| I (mid-career) would consider going back for a couple of
| degrees to continue expanding my community.
| racl101 wrote:
| - It got very expensive
|
| - Depending on what you choose it might not even be rewarding
|
| - You'll be saddled with crippling debt forever
|
| Nah.
|
| You're better off paying a couple of thousand for a coding
| bootcamp and have a better chance of finding some work and
| actually pay off the smaller debt you might have incurred.
| spaetzleesser wrote:
| I still haven't seen a real analysis why college has become so
| f....ing expensive over the last decades. I find it hard to
| understand why this is being accepted.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| Personally I would not have gotten any value of university in
| COVID times where there is virtually no 'campus life' and extra
| curricular.
|
| I've heard this from a lot of kids going through this and I would
| not be surprised if that's the main driver versus this article's
| main point of short term work $ versus long term career $.
|
| One of the interviewed kids said "he was tired of remote
| learning."
|
| I can't find any surveys just googling around if anyone has a
| source?
|
| for me, education alone would not be worth private school $, or
| even University of CO money (not science or maths). I barely
| learned anything from my major subject classes.
|
| I learned a ton from living on campus, doing my sport, student
| government, being an RA, interning and then working on political
| campaigns. probably some HN bias I think most here are probably
| more self starter, more intelligent.
|
| Plus college is about learning about yourself. Hard to become an
| independent adult when you're living in your parents house doing
| Zoom all day.
| panzagl wrote:
| The dean of students at my daughter's university (Montana State)
| has been pretty upfront about this mostly being demographics- Gen
| Z is smaller than the Millennials.
|
| That being said, both of my daughter's had drilled into their
| heads how expensive college would be by their HS teachers and
| staff. We're continually telling them not to worry about it, it's
| our responsibility to pay, not theirs, don't feel bad for not
| going into STEM, etc. Doesn't help that we live out west where
| anti-intellectualism is the default and a degree is just seen as
| a piece of paper.
| starwind wrote:
| I live in Colorado. I don't see a lot that I would "anti-
| intellectualism" since I live close to Denver but I definitely
| see a much higher value placed on skills than degrees
| panzagl wrote:
| Well, it won't surprise you that I live a little south of
| you. But even in Denver try telling people that your daughter
| is double majoring in history and classics- the looks I get
| mostly range from "she's crazy" to "you're an idiot for
| letting her do that". Nevermind that her 'hyper expensive
| education' will cost less than their dually F-250...
| xyzzy_plugh wrote:
| This is nearly a strictly American problem. Much of the rest of
| the world has realized that society requires and is capable of
| supporting advanced education for all -- after all we want
| humanity to be _advancing_ , right?
|
| America is still stuck in this alternate universe where it's a
| great privilege to have the opportunity to learn, which is of
| course true to some extent, but they _really_ put it on a
| pedestal there.
|
| Compared to the rest of the world, I think they over index on
| attending prestigious out-of-state and thus expensive, regardless
| of public or private, instead of building a really strong system
| for locals.
|
| I think of my (non-US) classmates, maybe 1-2 per 100 were from a
| different region or country? I paid a total of $20k over five
| years which I easily covered with internships/summer jobs. Can
| you say the same in the US?
| jackson1442 wrote:
| I'm attending a state school in the US, and my degree costs
| about $13k/year + books + housing.
| armchairhacker wrote:
| Some people hate college and only go for the degree. College
| should be accessible to everyone but not everyone needs to go
| to college.
| paulpauper wrote:
| _This is nearly a strictly American problem. Much of the rest
| of the world has realized that society requires and is capable
| of supporting advanced education for all -- after all we want
| humanity to be advancing, right?_
|
| I think foreign colleges have stricter entry requirements and
| fewer amenities compared to American colleges. So yes, college
| may be free in Japan, but also much harder to be accepted.
| chaosbolt wrote:
| >I think foreign colleges have stricter entry requirements
| and fewer amenities compared to American colleges. So yes,
| college may be free in Japan, but also much harder to be
| accepted.
|
| Yeah this is problematic, on one hand you have people who
| work harder for it pass the entrance exams and get in (like
| in France for example where some engineering schools like
| Polytechnique and ENS have a super difficult entrance exam
| but then you know everyone studying there earned it), but on
| the other hand you get some people who are just lazy or not
| good at physics get filtered from top tier positions in CS
| because the entrance exam had Math and Physics equally
| attribute to your grade.
| bernulli wrote:
| In Germany, the overall entry requirement is a not horrible
| high school degree (type of high school intended to prepare
| for an academic career) for engineering. You can just go and
| sign up to the university of your choice. The flip side is
| that you then sit there with hundreds of other students that
| will be weeded out by a harsh curriculum and zero advisement.
| That said, whoever gets through that system will be worth
| their price later on when you hire them.
| julienb_sea wrote:
| I don't know in which non-American worldview you subscribe, but
| America has a higher rate of tertiary education achievement
| than practically every European nation (source: https://en.wiki
| pedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_...). European
| countries have more selective and restrictive advanced
| education requirements, they just don't charge for them. This
| is the literal opposite of "supporting advanced education for
| all".
|
| To be clear, I think this is a more sensible system than what
| we do here in America, where anyone can get an advanced
| education because even if you can't afford it, the government
| will guarantee loans of arbitrary size.
| joey_bob wrote:
| Our state has a program that covers tuition if you are in-
| state, received good grades in high school, and continue to
| maintain those.
|
| Of my (undergraduate) classmates, I believe 60% were out of
| state, including out of country. Unfortunately, most that came
| from states with similarly ranked public schools did not have
| access to a similar program in those states.
|
| My payments to the university totaled $60k for 7 years,
| undergraduate and masters. (I lost full tuition coverage my
| first year.)
| ren_engineer wrote:
| >Much of the rest of the world has realized that society
| requires and is capable of supporting advanced education for
| all -- after all we want humanity to be advancing, right?
|
| the number of STEM degrees in the US has basically been flat
| for decades, majority of degrees being handed out are
| effectively useless in terms of boosting productivity and
| "advancement". Go around and ask people with college degrees
| how often they actually use them, probably 90% admit it was
| worthless, I know mine was. Luckily I had academic scholarships
| so I didn't have any debt
|
| kids are effectively being propagandized and brainwashed into
| chasing worthless credentials while racking up debt that will
| impact their lives for years. The amount of emotional
| manipulation around college is disgusting
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| My theatre degree has been useless from a compensation
| standpoint for me. It was somewhat helpful when I was in
| sales but I only got it because it was the easiest degree
| that required the least amount of maths.
|
| I went to college because my parents forced me to. Thankfully
| I got out without any debt. I cant imagine how upset I would
| be if I racked up 100K is debt and ended up with a useless
| degree like many of my friends did.
|
| That being said... I cant really blame my parents for forcing
| me to go. It did seem like the best option at the time. No
| one told me, or I guess them, about alternative educational
| programs or trade schools. I'd probably be a carpenter now if
| someone had. I had pretty much zero plans for my life post
| high school so college at least gave me something to do while
| I figured it out.
| banannaise wrote:
| There is a rapidly growing list of increasingly dire "strictly
| American problems". I wonder when and how it will break.
| timmg wrote:
| > Much of the rest of the world has realized that society
| requires and is capable of supporting advanced education for
| all...
|
| I don't know about _all_ of the rest of the world, but many
| countries require you to "test in" to college (and then it's
| free). The US basically lets anyone go to college if they can
| pay.
|
| You can argue one is better than the other. But you should be
| honest/aware of the difference.
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| There is little hope anymore for actual advancement anyway,
| just a tendency downwards, punctuated by small spurts of
| different kinds of enthusiasm.
|
| We get a new iPhone every once in a while, or a UI refresh of
| twitter, to simulate a feeling of advancement, but we all, deep
| down, know it's just that, a feeling.
|
| How could anyone even really want advancement when we know that
| finance thrives on predictable cycles.
|
| The word for the next centuries should be 'humility,' not
| 'progress'. Humility is the only thing I think we can possibly
| achieve anymore
| contravariant wrote:
| Some of the 'let's saddle students with debt' vibe seems to
| have pollinated the Netherlands, though for reasons that I
| applaud but don't quite understand pretty much everyone now
| considers it a bad idea.
| mettamage wrote:
| I have no data, I'm simply stating my beliefs to give you an
| understanding, since I feel I'm one of the people you happen
| to be surprised about.
|
| Free education levels the playing field. Moreover, I feel
| guilt. I have been a beneficiary of free education. Free
| transport, free college tuition, free books and some paid
| assistance with living somewhere else. Coming from a working
| class family it has given me an amazing boost in:
|
| * Career (master computer science)
|
| * Spiritual knowledge (one Buddhism course was enough)
|
| * Outlook on the world
|
| * Network
|
| University isn't perfect, but if I wasn't given this chance
| then I would not be able to replicate certain pivotal
| experiences simply by using the internet and my own wit. In
| that sense, I still believe it levels the playing field by
| quite a bit.
|
| School was always meant as the great equalizer and I think it
| still should be, as imperfect as it is.
| kgin wrote:
| Americans have one of the highest rates of higher education in
| the developed world.
|
| America just wants new grads to be indebted to motivate them to
| get to work.
| feoren wrote:
| > after all we want humanity to be _advancing_ , right?
|
| Hell no! Life is a zero-sum game, so if I'm hurting other
| people, that must mean I'm winning! Besides, if we all
| collectively come together to make the world better, _those
| people_ might have nice things too! That would make me so
| angry! I 'd rather live in poverty than see _those people_ do
| well in life!
|
| Sarcasm, obviously, but at least 100 million Americans believe
| all of the above. They are single-issue voters, and their
| single issue is hurting other people.
| maccolgan wrote:
| > This is nearly a strictly American problem. Much of the rest
| of the world has realized that society requires and is capable
| of supporting advanced education for all -- after all we want
| humanity to be advancing, right?
|
| Yeah subsidization of education, of mostly useless degrees will
| solve all problems of humanity, totally.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _after all we want humanity to be advancing, right?_
|
| I don't know how much our reams of communications, generic
| business and English majors are advancing humanity. (Granted, I
| studied finance [and engineering] in undergrad.)
| BingoAhoy wrote:
| Stephen King was an English major. Word art, literature,
| helps people advance cognitively.
|
| English is an unowned cultivated intellectual property that
| greases communication which greases all other human
| endeavors. I think its underappreciated.
|
| Not all education needs to advance the frontier, much of it
| is about maintaining what we've already claimed and passing
| it on to new generations.
| ryan93 wrote:
| What kind of argument is that. For every 10,000 English
| majors there is maybe 1 Stephen king or anything close to
| ti
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| I think it's a quite good argument, and at very least one
| that doesn't rely on colleges literally producing a
| larger number Stephen Kings, as if something about the
| quantity produced could matter at all (really curious how
| you even arrived at that counter).
| long_time_gone wrote:
| Communicating with eachother, knowledge of business, and
| understanding language seem like things we would want more of
| in society. Not sure why they would be demonized. Is the goal
| of higher-education to promote learning and build a well-
| rounded citizenry or to create worker drones?
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Not sure why they would be demonized_
|
| Because they're in large part neither functional nor
| artistic. Both force one to think in novel ways. The
| certification-for-its-own-sake majors do not.
|
| There are reams of low-grade degrees in which the majority
| of teaching is in memorization, not mastering new ways to
| think. That doesn't advance society, particularly when it
| burdens young people with debt.
| lapetitejort wrote:
| > There are reams of low-grade degrees in which the
| majority of teaching is in memorization
|
| I have a degree in physics with a minor in literature. I
| took one upper div lit class a quarter. I never memorized
| a thing. Instead I read a ton, both assigned and peer
| review, and wrote a ton, both essays and creative. My lit
| classes are far more memorable than my physics classes
| because I learned the skill of communicating my ideas.
| "Low-grade" creative writing taught me that my ideas will
| never be conveyed as I hoped; good criticism can be
| immensely helpful; and rewriting my work is when
| something truly useful comes together.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| > Both force one to think in novel ways. The
| certification-for-its-own-sake majors do not.
|
| What exactly do you think an English major is like?
| Humanities majors absolutely force you to think in new
| ways, and I'd argue much more so than engineering or CS
| majors.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _What exactly do you think an English major is like?
| Humanities majors absolutely force you to think in new
| ways_
|
| I agree, and was on the edge in not including that major,
| but did so because there are English majors and there are
| undergrads who got a degree in English. At a lot of tier
| 2 public universities ( _e.g._ the one I went to), the
| latter dominate. A student showing initiative can get a
| top-notch liberal arts education. But the average student
| won 't. They'll skim, read the SparkNotes and pass
| through unchanged because the point isn't studying
| literature but getting a diploma.
|
| Students who want to learn anything should be given the
| opportunity. I strongly believe that. But more people
| with degrees doesn't make for a better-educated
| population. And driving money into encouraging that
| doesn't necessarily advance society either.
| long_time_gone wrote:
| This sounds like a bias working backwards to find a
| justification. Is there any studies or data that support
| your stance? Which are the "good" majors? Who gets to
| judge that?
|
| > There are reams of low-grade degrees in which the
| majority of teaching is in memorization, and not
| mastering new ways to think.
|
| The biggest complaint from anyone I know who studied
| medicine/pre-med is the sheer amount of memorization
| involved. Must be a useless field of study.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _biggest complaint from anyone I know who studied
| medicine /pre-med is the sheer amount of memorization_
|
| This is a straw man. Nobody said memorization is
| verboten.
|
| A certificate granted for mainly memorization, where no
| new modes of thinking or doing were involved, is not
| worth tends of thousands of dollars. If a med school
| matriculated students who never did practical and had
| never deliberated treatment modes and tradeoffs, _et
| cetera_ , yes, it would be close to useless.
| long_time_gone wrote:
| >A certificate granted for mainly memorization, where no
| new modes of thinking or doing were involved, is not
| worth tends of thousands of dollars.
|
| And here is your straw man. Nobody said they were worth
| that much. You haven't demonstrated that a significant
| portion of any major exhibits these traits.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Nobody said they were worth that much_
|
| Four years of a young person's time is worth tens of
| thousands of dollars. So beyond the direct cost of
| education, that is the opportunity cost, to the
| individual and to society. I think that's money well
| spent for _e.g._ a proper liberal arts degree. It isn 't
| for a piece of paper pursued for its own end.
| long_time_gone wrote:
| You haven't presented evidence or sources that any
| individual major is "A certificate granted for mainly
| memorization, where no new modes of thinking or doing
| were involved."
|
| This is the basis of your entire point, and you haven't
| backed it up with anything of substance. You can keep
| tossing red herrings, but this hasn't been addressed.
| SuoDuanDao wrote:
| Anecdotally, I have a friend who recently retired from
| teaching psychology and linguistics at a university
| level, and his observation over twenty years at the same
| institution was that standards were aggressively lowered
| to move more paying customers through the system. Not
| sure you'd say that's substantial or not, but I'm
| inclined to believe him.
| 11101010001100 wrote:
| For those who work in adtech now, there's some hubris to be
| had. That industry was founded by people with those very
| degrees.
| AlchemistCamp wrote:
| > I paid a total of $20k over five years which I easily covered
| with internships/summer jobs.
|
| You paid with five years of your life. Even if college were
| "free", it still wouldn't be the optimal thing for everyone to
| do. It is the best choice for some, but unfortunately those who
| make other choices are often looked down upon in much of the
| world unless they're an outlier success.
|
| The cost of US schools is a massive problem, but the increasing
| assumption that _everyone_ needs to take multiple years out of
| what could be the most productive phase of their life to engage
| in a tracked cookie-cutter experience is an even bigger
| problem.
|
| Schooling and education aren't the same thing and the first
| doesn't always lead to much of the second.
| wil421 wrote:
| Yes I can say the same in the US. My state paid full tuition
| for B average and above students if you went to a college in
| the state. After a little over a year I took off and went back
| to school while working at a later point. By that time I
| qualified for federal tuition aid but lost my state one. It
| wasn't much over $20k for 5 years out of pocket for me.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| I've lived in the U.S. my entire life, and I agree with you.
| Our culture somehow misses the fact that as a society we
| benefit from educated citizens. There's even a segment of the
| population that fetishizes ignorance as a virtue, and knowledge
| as leftist indoctrination.
|
| There also seems to be a deep seated fear that any sort of
| public investment in people is seen as a slippery slope to
| soviet-style authoritarian government.
| autokad wrote:
| > knowledge as leftist indoctrination.
|
| Almost all of my classes had leftist brainwashing. In my
| machine learning class, the professor would use voting
| republican as a classifier making the wrong decision. Given
| that people had made it this far in education to be good at
| repeating and learning what ever the professor says and that
| the professor is in a position of power over the students,
| this is very bad.
|
| > There also seems to be a deep seated fear that any sort of
| public investment in people is seen as a slippery slope to
| soviet-style authoritarian government.
|
| Well, we now have to show our papers to go to restaurants,
| bars, work, etc and are now required to mask our faces in
| public. its considered an act of terrorism to raise your
| voice at a school board meeting, and we're being censored on
| internet platforms. so yeah, you already accomplished your
| soviet-style authoritarianism.
| rjbwork wrote:
| >Well, we now have to show our papers to go to restaurants,
| bars, work, etc and are now required to mask our faces in
| public. its considered an act of terrorism to raise your
| voice at a school board meeting, and we're being censored
| on internet platforms. so yeah, you already accomplished
| your soviet-style authoritarianism.
|
| (with the exception of the school board thing, which i
| don't know about)
|
| >Communism is when capitalism!
| chrisco255 wrote:
| Academia is a hostile environment for a right-leaning person.
| When less than 5% of professors identify as conservative, why
| would you gravitate to it, as a conservative? That's half the
| country, by the way. Maybe that has something to do with low
| engagement. Consequently, the institution suffers
| dramatically from its own groupthink.
|
| That being said, there's a difference between academic
| education and other forms of education, such as vocational or
| work experience. One is not better than the other. I'm weary
| of people that think they're smarter or better than someone
| else on the basis of what school they went to or how long
| for. Academia does not have a monopoly on knowledge.
| Particularly in the information age, but even well before the
| age we find ourselves in, there's always been value in the
| pragmatic experience of less intellectual pursuits.
|
| I'd say the U.S.'s slant towards pragmatism and away from
| intellectualism is one of my favorite things about the
| country. I'd say it showed itself pretty well on the Covid
| response. Red states were more quicker to re-open, quicker to
| drop restrictions, and quicker to move on to living with
| Covid and in spite of it. People knew intuitively that you
| wouldn't be able to control a virus more infectious than the
| common cold.
|
| And many people know this, intuitively as well, that's why
| New York loss record population last year and why Florida and
| Texas grew dramatically. The intellectuals running New York
| and New York City probably have tons of education and not one
| bit of common sense, because all they know is conformity.
| When an ordained expert says jump, they ask how high?
|
| That doesn't even begin to cover the other part of it, which
| is how poorly adapted academia is for the 21st century. Even
| if it were free, it wouldn't fix that problem.
| gorjusborg wrote:
| > how poorly adapted academia is for the 21st century. Even
| if it were free, it wouldn't fix that problem.
|
| I can agree with you on that.
| abeppu wrote:
| > America is still stuck in this alternate universe where it's
| a great privilege to have the opportunity to learn, which is of
| course true to some extent, but they really put it on a
| pedestal there.
|
| I think the facts don't really support the idea of it being a
| "great privilege" in the sense of being inaccessible to most.
| E.g. if you look at this table of tertiary education by
| country, in OECD countries plus a few others, the US is in the
| top 10.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_...
|
| In the section below that, if you look at 4-year degrees or
| higher, more Americans have a 4-year equivalent than Israelis,
| Swedes, Canadians, Norwegians, French, German etc.
|
| We're not an outlier in how many of us go to college, just in
| how much of people's lives they end up paying for it.
| lanecwagner wrote:
| College simply isn't the most effective way to be learning these
| days. Especially for undergraduate degrees, places like Kahn
| Academy, Qvault.io (mine) and FreeCodeCamp are working really
| well
| Bostonian wrote:
| I've read that more Americans start college than in other
| developed countries but that the fraction of college graduates is
| similar. This suggests that there are too many unqualified
| students attending college in the U.S., and if the declining
| enrollments are coming primarily from that group, it's a good
| thing.
| fortran77 wrote:
| And now there are movements to eliminate SATs or similar
| standardized tests, allowing more unqualified students to enter
| college.
|
| Enrollment might also be down because of COVID. For many, I
| think, college is more about getting away from home and living
| in a fun-filled alternate world for a few years with dorm
| rooms, frat parties, etc. With remote classes and restrictions,
| why bother?
|
| (I'm imagining here -- I commuted to a local 4-year college on
| a public bus while also working. Then got my Master's degree in
| the evening while working full-time, in the early 80s.)
| jack_pp wrote:
| Those student lones are worth a lot to the govt, lifetime
| additional tax.
| rjzzleep wrote:
| SATs are the dumbest thing I've encountered in testing. In
| the US scoring high in some SATs will even qualify you for
| Mensa(gifted stamp).
|
| There are a handful of companies that own a huge margin of
| the standardized testing market(Pearson being one of them).
| From selling new test learning books every year, to the
| massive global standardized testing training market.
|
| Maybe the movements to eliminate SATs have a different
| agenda, but generally the main reason you need those SATs is
| because the average education level in the US is so
| horrendous. Instead of fixing that problem there are a
| handful organizations acting as money printing machines and
| gatekeepers for higher education. It's frankly disgusting.
|
| If you ever had to take ANY kind of industrialized
| generalized test, whether it's ISC2, PMI, 6 Sigma, TLA+ or
| just SAT's or IELTS/TOEFL GRE or even just normal US
| university multiple choice as a non American you might find
| the whole ordeal infuriatingly insulting(unless you studied
| medicine, in which case it's similar across the globe)
|
| It's a lazy cop out for not giving teacher enough resources
| to actually teach.
| achenatx wrote:
| The average is not great, but it hides the underlying
| cause. If you look into education scores more closely you
| will find that subpopulations have greatly varying results.
| This implies that it isnt just about schools.
|
| The same goes for infant mortality. People cite infant
| mortality as evidence that our healthcare system sucks. But
| really infant mortality is clustered in certain sub
| populations.
|
| The same goes for murder rates and gun violence.
|
| Unfortunately the problems cannot be fixed until people
| admit and are willing to talk about the underlying actual
| root causes.
| nradov wrote:
| College admissions officers need some way to decide which
| applicants to accept. If they don't use SAT scores then
| what should they use instead? SAT scores have pretty good
| correlation with college academic success (although not
| perfect). High school grades can't really be compared
| between schools due to inconsistent grading standards.
|
| It used to be common for selective colleges to administer
| their own proprietary admission exams. But that was a huge
| burden on students applying to multiple schools, hence the
| switch to standardized testing.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> If they don 't use SAT scores then what should they
| use instead?_
|
| The answer depends on institution type.
|
| Highly Selective Institutions: the admissions process is
| so hands-on and personal that I could believe they are
| able to get a good sense of each candidate without
| testing. E.g., I absolutely believe Harvard's admissions
| folks have the bandwidth to compare grades between high
| schools (not that they need to). And they do all sorts of
| stuff that gives you a better sense for the candidate
| than test scores (alumni interviews, essays, rec letters,
| delving into performance in highly competitive extra-
| curriculars, exceptional community service work, etc).
|
| Non-Selective Institutions (let's say admissions >70%):
| Standardized tests are kind of a waste of time and money
| for all involved. These institutions are functionally
| admitting everyone who can manage to fill out the
| admissions paperwork and didn't systematically fail high
| school courses. It makes sense to make test scores
| optional, because there might be a few diamonds in the
| 30% "oof" pile who can pull off a decent SAT score to
| compensate for their D-average-no-honors-courses
| transcript. But _requiring_ the SAT /ACT is silly when
| your admissions standards are extremely low.
|
| Moderately Selective Institutions: I definitely see
| utility in these universities still using the SAT. But
| notice that this is actually a very small set of
| institutions. Perhaps 100-300 the US's 3K+ colleges fit
| in this category.
|
| --
|
| FWIW, my opinion on SAT/ACT is somewhere in the middle.
|
| I think standardized tests can be an excellent instrument
| when some form of assessment is necessary but more
| nuanced assessments of merit are cost-prohibitive. So for
| places like competitive state flagships, I think getting
| rid of testing _and replacing it with an admissions
| process that works at least as good as testing_ is
| probably more expensive than it 's worth.
|
| However, I also think the pro-testing camp is often
| extremely hyperbolic. Testing is just one way of
| assessing merit. It has all sorts of flaws. Tests are a
| model, and all models are wrong.
|
| As an aside, I'm not surprised that so many pro-SAT-the-
| sky-is-falling folks are mathematicians. That entire
| field is completely fucked up when in comes to testing.
| Math as a discipline is bad about intellectual peacocking
| in general... if you think Mensa is insufferable, spend
| an afternoon in a math dept. Math professors are exactly
| the last set of people in the world I would trust to have
| a healthy attitude toward the ability of testing to suss
| out real merit. They literally talk about their prelim
| exams the same way frat bros talk about hazing rituals.
| Systematic misuse of testing is the second biggest reason
| that people choose to do phds in math-adjacent fields
| instead of math. (The biggest reason is job prospects.)
| ghaff wrote:
| I would have had a hard time recommending that someone start
| college during the pandemic given the option to defer for a
| year (or more). Of course, alternative activities weren't in
| a great place either.
|
| I also have first-hand knowledge of a fair number of students
| who took some time off during the pandemic.
| astura wrote:
| Maybe.
|
| Some people fail out of college because the work is beyond
| their capabilities, but I think a significant percentage of
| people who start college but don't graduate do so for reasons
| other than being simply unqualified.
|
| I admit it's anecdotal, but very few people I know who started
| college but didn't finish didn't finish due to academic
| reasons.
| claytonjy wrote:
| I am rather certain that, at least when I attended a decade
| ago, my university leaned into this as a revenue source.
|
| My school, Michigan Tech, is in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, a
| remote location averaging over 200" of snow per year with the
| nearest major city over 5 hours away, and most students
| traveling 8+ hours from their parent's homes in SE Michigan.
| The application was 4 pages long: 1 page of info, 2 pages for
| me to fill out, 1 for my guidance counselor. No essays. So,
| very easy to be accepted to, 90%+ acceptance rate.
|
| The second year return rate was below 70% at the time, and
| anecdotally many freshmen didn't return for second semester
| after going home for Christmas. Not only is it remote, cold,
| and not sunny, but there was a dearth of women and some tough
| weeder classes (chemistry, calc 2).
|
| If you can finish, you're in a great spot. Eng degrees from
| there are quite well regarded regionally (competitive with
| University of Michigan) and graduates had lower debt than any
| other school in the state. It seems obvious that the university
| avoided a more stringent up-front filter so it could soak kids
| for a year or two before forcing them out due to grades or
| environment.
|
| I'm not sure that's entirely unreasonable, as I'm not sure how
| they could predict who would leave due to environment, but I
| also knew many freshmen who were obviously not setup to succeed
| academically, and didn't.
| leetcrew wrote:
| I went to a state school with a similar strategy: accept
| basically everyone then thin the herd with some brutal weed
| out courses. I don't think it was some cynical strategy to
| raise revenue though; they also offered tons of remedial
| courses to give ill-prepared students a chance to catch up.
|
| imo this is an appropriate way for a public school to
| operate. everyone gets a shot, but people that can't make it
| get failed out early. way less debt for the student than
| dropping out years later, and more frugal with public funds
| too.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| ... friends, a comment from Boston, Massachusetts
| Welcome to Merry old Boston The Land of the Bean and
| the Cod where Lowells speak only to Cabbots and
| Cabots speak only to G*d
| ducharmdev wrote:
| Where did you read this? Just curious, I'd like to share with
| someone I know that works in this field.
| GnarfGnarf wrote:
| Start by lowering tuition fees. University administrations have
| become bloated, profiteering from the truism that you gotta go to
| college to get a good job.
|
| I got my B.A. in 1968; I owed $800 balance on my student loan
| ($6,400 today).
|
| My plumber just charged me $430 to install a sink, about an hour
| and a half's work. That doesn't include the cost of the sink. Are
| Gender Studies majors making this kind of money?
| maxerickson wrote:
| Government dollars went a lot further when a smaller percentage
| of people were enrolling in college. And there was unmet demand
| for college educated professionals (which is true in some
| fields today, but probably not as broadly true), so there was
| more willingness to spend government dollars educating people.
| muaytimbo wrote:
| Easy explanation, who wants to pay for a masked/zoom college
| experience? Add jab requirements every couple months, "covid"
| surveillance and contact tracing, and intentionally minimized
| social activities/opportunities and why would anyone pay 50k/yr
| for that?
| hbn wrote:
| I also think millennials were the sacrificial generation who
| were forced to find out the hard way that college isn't the
| magical path to a great, well-paying career like they were
| promised. They did everything right, exactly as the generation
| before them who it worked for. They got expensive degrees, sunk
| themselves into crippling debt right as they were entering
| adulthood, only to find out most of the degrees they were sold
| are worthless. The new generation that's supposed to be
| entering college now can clearly see how badly millennials got
| scammed, why would they do the same thing as them? Not to
| mention the absolutely deranged politics that are taking place
| in academic institutions these days.
|
| The current sales pitch of college is "give us tens of
| thousands of dollars so you can watch some online classes with
| information you could find freely on the internet, we'll
| occasionally get you to write essays about how you were born
| inherently toxic as a person, and then at the end we give you a
| piece of paper that won't get you a job." No shit, attendance
| is going down.
|
| Unless you have a very specific plan for a career you want to
| get into, and you know it's a job that would actually be worth
| the money spent (like a computer science degree so you can get
| into a software career), it's just such an obviously horrible
| deal.
| jimmar wrote:
| Children of affluent parents are still going to college at very
| high rates. The people suffering most from the expense of college
| are those who would benefit most from a college degree. Whatever
| the causes, people with college degree earn much more over their
| lifetimes than people without degrees. The trend in lower college
| enrollment seems like it will only exacerbate wealth disparities.
| pandeiro wrote:
| Why not wait until COVID hysteria is over? Seems like the right
| call.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| As the father of a 16-year old, I can say that the current
| generation of teenagers has heard a lot more about the issues of
| college debt than previous generations did. Partly because it's a
| lot higher, partly because even if newsmedia doesn't report on
| it, there are enough adults out there saddled with it that they
| just hear about it from a relative or friend. It used to be a no-
| brainer; you go to college if you can. No longer.
|
| Any industry that sees nothing but expansion for decades, has a
| rough time when it stops. I think higher ed is in for a rough
| time.
| cush wrote:
| Exactly. 1M fewer people will be in poverty from student loan
| debt
| strikelaserclaw wrote:
| not only the higher costs of education but my generation
| (millennial) learned that most degrees offered provide no real
| jobs that can contend with massive rise in cost for every
| significant thing that constitutes a decent life (housing,
| childcare etc...). Things look even bleaker for younger
| generations. The people who were born just in time to ride the
| swelling wave greatly benefited, if you were born when the wave
| is crashing down, unfortunately your life will be much much
| harder. We have this notion that everything we earn is based on
| merit but as i get older i see how much external context
| greatly influences the opportunities for merit as well as the
| outcomes.
| l8rpeace wrote:
| I can relate to info/knowledge about that edu debt, went to
| undergrad in the 90's and while I might be naive, I can say I
| didn't comprehend the debt side of things. And my edu debt
| pales in comparison to today's students. Fortunately I grew up,
| buckled down, and paid it off but there were some lean years
| right after school. Now? I can't even imagine.
|
| And I also agree: how will these institutions scale back? What
| if tuition was cut significantly? What programs are on the
| chopping block?
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Businesses and industries that have never had layoffs (or not
| in a long time), tend to do them badly (more unfairly and in
| a more disorganized manner) than ones which have had them
| recently.
| taylodl wrote:
| No. Things are just going back to the way they used to be:
| higher education is for the elites. Once upon a time we
| understood that higher education was important for all and
| having a well-educated public was good for the Republic. Now
| that view no longer holds - the politicians have learned that
| their flim-flam doesn't work as well on a well-educated public
| and so they've been making cuts to higher education for the
| past 20 years. We're just now getting to the point where the
| cuts are having a serious impact to the middle class being able
| to afford college. Don't worry though - the elites will be just
| fine.
| 9dev wrote:
| Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is
| adequately explained by stupidity".
|
| It's enough to assume elites were greedy (and/or dense) and
| didn't consider long-term effects, you don't even need a
| decades-spanning conspiracy for it.
|
| The elites won't be as fine once they realise much of their
| wealth stems from the rest of the republic, but that seems to
| be the circle humanity is caught in for eternity.
| mistrial9 wrote:
| it is my vague impression from history that in real yet
| slow-moving crisis, those that are able to command and
| control high-value resources do in fact continue to thrive
| while others fail in increasing numbers. This works, until
| it doesn't, to make a cute phrase, because in dynamic
| systems, either the system re-stabilizes in a new and
| different composition, or there is sudden, increased
| failure.
| 9dev wrote:
| If I understood you correctly, you're describing the
| efficiency-resilience problem: A system that is efficient
| is highly specialised for their environment, and thus
| susceptible to failure if the environment changes; a
| system that is resilient will not be as efficient, but
| can adapt to a changing environment.
|
| This seems to apply to all kinds of things - people,
| organisations, software, religions.
|
| I guess as often in live, balance is important here :)
| rossdavidh wrote:
| True, and you might be interested in Peter Turchin's
| "Ages of Discord" for a more in-depth investigation into
| how and why that happens.
| echelon wrote:
| That's an interesting take, but I disagree.
|
| The reason colleges cost so much is that they've expanded
| their administration, facilities, and sports programs to soak
| up all of the available loan money.
|
| I went to a state school that focused on STEM. The acceptance
| rate was low, class sizes were small, and the tuitions were
| reasonable. The buildings dated from the 60's. We didn't have
| extensive athletic programs, and our gym was falling apart.
| The school didn't spare expenses on things that didn't
| contribute directly to education.
|
| We still had access to full machine shops, doppler radar
| installations, flow cytometers, BSL-3 labs, electron
| microscopes, wind tunnels, robotics facilities, and a boat
| load of really cool stuff. But it certainly didn't feel like
| an ivory tower.
|
| Though our school wasn't losing money, the state board of
| regents decided to merge it into a much larger "liberal arts"
| school. This was done so that it could hit the student body
| requirements in order to qualify for building its own
| division I football program.
|
| They built lots of fancy buildings for their dance program
| and theater productions. I can't even count how many stadiums
| and sports facilities they've constructed - it feels like two
| dozen! They're also purchasing lots of expensive real estate
| to enhance the size of the main campus. Meanwhile tuition has
| quadrupled and fees have gone up 1,000%.
|
| It's bloat. That's why everything costs so much.
| taylodl wrote:
| The administrative bloat helps cover the fact that their
| graduates aren't able to get jobs upon graduating. Parents
| and prospective students feel good that 99.7% of the
| graduates got a job within their first year of graduation
| and don't realize 7% of that was as an administrator for
| the college.
| lordnacho wrote:
| I wonder if there's a market for schools that specifically
| don't have a sports program. I suspect the atmosphere at
| such a place would be attractive to a large minority of
| prospective students.
| taylodl wrote:
| A lot of students who may not play sports competitively
| still enjoy playing sports recreationally and really,
| given the sad state of American's health these days, we
| really need to be promoting the development of both mind
| and body.
| dpierce9 wrote:
| There are a lot of people blaming federal loans for the inflation
| in college costs, however, private secondary school (high school)
| tuition has also grown at a comparable rate (maybe even faster).
| There are not, to my knowledge, federal loans for private
| secondary schools. Does anyone have an explanation for this?
|
| Edit: clarified that private secondary school = private high
| school. Of course federal student loans are available for
| accredited private colleges/universities.
|
| Not sure the reliability of this source but the trend is there
| across sources: [0] https://educationdata.org/average-cost-of-
| private-school
| zactato wrote:
| When I was in school the loans were called stafford loans:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Loan
|
| I guess they've since changed to
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Direct_Student_Loan_Pr...
|
| They are very much for private schools. There's no real limit
| on them. They tend to cover the difference between what a
| family can pay and what the tuition is. They're generally low
| interest and you don't need to start paying them back until
| you're done with school.
|
| Since the loans always cover the difference the impact of
| tuition costs going up isn't immediately felt
| dpierce9 wrote:
| These are for college, not high school.
|
| Private high school costs have gone up as fast or faster than
| college. This cannot be explained by the availability of
| federal loans.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| There do appear to be federal loans for private schools- Baylor
| is a private school in Texas, here's their site on loans:
| https://www.baylor.edu/sfs/index.php?id=963417
| dpierce9 wrote:
| Baylor is not a secondary school. Secondary school = high
| school.
| malwarebytess wrote:
| It's Covid. Nobody wants to go to college on Zoom. People have
| postponed their education because of this stupid boomer shit so
| expect a boom when restrictions end.
| ctime wrote:
| "I never let my schooling interfere with my education." -Mark
| Twain
|
| My biggest gripe is the astronomical cost and debt burden that
| has vastly outpaced inflation. The university system in the U.S.
| has been taken hostage by greedy interests that push all kinds of
| bullshit costs on to students and have lost sight of exactly why
| the university exists in the first place - to educate. Not to
| house, not to entertain, not to keep fit, but to educate those
| that want to learn. If universities would stop with the non-sense
| "campus life" and focus more on a their core mission (like
| universities in Germany, for example) they might not have ended
| up in this predictable mess.
|
| This level of enrollment decline only means one thing for
| universities: Layoffs and shrinking budgets. You can't squeeze
| any more blood out of these students.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| Good. The entire college infrastructure is junk. It probably has
| its place but no in its current iteration.
|
| The onus for training needs to be put on the businesses
| themselves. This is better for everyone including the businesses
| themselves. Putting in training requirements and a probationary
| period where new hires have to meet a certain threshold or be let
| go. The individual can then decide how best to learn.
| jxramos wrote:
| We have a family member who's decided to sit this quarter out,
| they sat last quarter out too. I'm curious how universities are
| juggling the leaves, I know they always permitted limited leaves
| but the must be facilitating the process to some degree I'd
| think.
| dhairya wrote:
| This article is predicated on the assumption that immediately
| going to college after graduating high school is important. The
| pandemic skews the decision calculus greatly for many students
| ranging from safety to finding short-term employment enough for
| their current situation.
|
| If college is important factor in improving economic outcomes, it
| shouldn't matter if you go to college at 18 or take a few years
| go at the age of 21 or even later in life. We have this stigma
| around adults who get a college degree later in life. I've met a
| several people who went to college as older adults (one at the
| age of 26 and the other at the age of 30) and ended up having
| highly lucrative careers. My mom got her masters at the age 55
| (and rightfully lorded over my sister and I that if she get her
| degree with straight A while holding down a job, being a mom and
| in her 50s, then we have no excuses).
|
| I believe college is valuable (though greatly overpriced in the
| US) but you don't need to be a young adult to attend. In terms of
| the labor effect of having fewer college graduates available for
| the labor market, honestly most jobs don't really require a
| college degree (including office and white collar jobs).
| Employers tend to use college degrees as cheap filtering signal
| instead having better hiring processes. Most entry level jobs
| have onboarding and training where college knowledge is not a
| perquisite for success.
| fasteddie31003 wrote:
| Might be a good think. You're not going to be overburdened by
| debt. You don't have to spend some of your time learning
| worthless topics. You might not meet as many women, which let's
| face it is a big reason to go to college. At least in programming
| you can train yourself to make well over 6 figures without any
| formal education. You might need a mentor. If there are any high
| school grads not going to college who are looking for a tech
| mentor, reach out.
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Theirs a few factors.
|
| First birth rates are generally down. Not only in America,but
| worldwide.
|
| >Wages at the bottom of the economy have increased dramatically,
| making minimum-wage jobs especially appealing to young people as
| an alternative to college.
|
| This isn't an ether or situation. I worked full time while going
| to school full time. In fact this was my entire senior year of
| college.
|
| I actually got to 6 figures without a degree, but the entire
| point of college for me was getting away from my horrible family.
| It's still a good way to get distance.
|
| This is great news overall. Tuition will have to drop and schools
| will offer more flexibility to working students.
|
| In my home state of California the UCs are hostile to anyone with
| a 9-5, I hope this changes.
| jimmyjazz14 wrote:
| I feel that for many people a good trade school would offer the
| best future and as we are seeing shortages in some important
| trade work it would be useful for society as well.
| fleddr wrote:
| Sure enough the American college system is rotten, but let's also
| shed some light on financial literacy. We'll use "Brian" from the
| article.
|
| Brian can't be bothered to enroll into college because he's tired
| of remote learning.
|
| Yes, remote learning sucks. Doesn't mean you should stop. I'm
| bothered by this optionality. Later in life you're going to do a
| lot of things that suck, but have to do anyway. Further, at such
| young age, I would expect some hawkish parent to "help out" with
| the choice, but I guess I'm old fashioned.
|
| Fine, though. Delaying enrollment whilst earning some cash in the
| meanwhile is not the end of the world. And so Brian starts work
| at Jimmy's sandwiches.
|
| Then comes his mastermind move: he starts work at an Amazon
| warehouse for slightly more pay, yet needs to buy a car to get
| there. For which he takes a loan.
|
| I imagine many Americans don't even blink at this, but it's
| absolutely moronic. The very point of the break from school was
| to earn cash. Instead of saving it up, he's now in debt for the
| car, works a shit job, and comes short both for his "needs" and
| for college.
|
| Brian seems to have some self awareness at this point:
|
| "It's so hard," he says. "I'm just like, 'Wow, if I go to school,
| I'm going to take time off and I'm not going to have any money
| for things I need.'"
|
| Yeah, Brian, Wow indeed. Typical for American consumer culture:
| spending above your means from the very start.
| lwhi wrote:
| Feels sensible to not go to college in a pandemic though?
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Maybe it just got too damn expensive. I make pretty good money
| and I'm still planning carefully for how I'm going to deal with
| it for my kids (who still have 7-9 years left before college).
|
| I'm hoping that online school really takes off, and that colleges
| follow Georgia Tech's lead on pricing for it. OSU still wants
| full price for online classes, which is bogus.
|
| Beyond that, I'm going to strongly incentivize my kids to stay
| home the first couple years and hit the local community college
| for the first half of their degree, just because it's
| dramatically cheaper than what it'll cost to send them to live at
| a university.
|
| I thought college was expensive when I was going in the 90s. Now
| it's just ridiculous.
| Aperocky wrote:
| Aren't state colleges relatively affordable (while mostly OK
| academically)?
| astura wrote:
| I started college almost 20 years ago, so I don't know the
| current situation. Back then the state schools had acceptance
| rates of only 20%-30% because so many people wanted to go to
| state schools to save money. There wasn't nearly enough
| supply to meet demand.
|
| I never applied to any public school, but I was legitimately
| worried about not being accepted. I wouldn't depend on it.
|
| I'm really glad I went to a private college in the end.
| People who went to state schools said class sizes were huge
| (like 150 students per class) and they were being taught by
| TAs. I really don't think I would have succeeded in that sort
| of environment - At my private school we didn't have any TAs
| and I never had a class over ~30 people, which was important
| because classes were very interactive.
| lkxijlewlf wrote:
| Florida used to (still does?) guarantee admission to state
| college if you have a 2 year (AA) degree.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Relatively, yes, I believe so. But Oregon State still tells
| me to budget 30K/year for a resident undergrad. About half of
| that is living expenses, half is school.
| Aperocky wrote:
| $15K for living expenses in a year sounds pretty alright
| tbf. Although I did believe state school charged less for
| tuition. I guess time changes.
| greedo wrote:
| I don't understand how we've accepted $30k/year as
| relatively affordable...
| ativzzz wrote:
| In my undergrad, when I was living in dorms, it also came
| with a meal plan (I think ~2 meals a day covered). So for
| in state, 10-15k was tuition. The rest was rent + meals.
| So 15k / 12 = $1250 a month, which is not cheap, but
| considering it includes food is really not bad at all.
| greedo wrote:
| But you can't divide it by 12 since school is only in
| session for roughly 9 months. During summer session
| you're on your own for food and housing. That makes it
| more like $1666/month. That's nuts.
| darkstar999 wrote:
| That's residence pricing, so:
|
| $1250 a month housing
|
| $1250 a month on education and staff
|
| The numbers aren't crazy with the housing prices we're
| experiencing right now.
| lkxijlewlf wrote:
| Well, your house's value went up 30% the past two years,
| so you can now take out a larger loan against it...
|
| /sarcasm (in case it wasn't obvious).
| _fat_santa wrote:
| The dynamics of this play out different on various campuses
| but at my alma mater we had a bunch of "right off campus"
| apartments that competed heavily with the dorms. Well, it
| wasn't much of a competition, if you calculated your
| monthly rent based on what you paid for room and board, you
| got about $700/mo to live in a dorm with 3 others.
|
| By comparison you could go off campus and rent an entire
| 1bd for like $750/mo. A similar living situation off campus
| with 3 roommates would set you back $300-400/mo and $550 if
| you really wanted the nice place.
|
| The thing that always bugged me about dorms is they aren't
| treated as regular residences. School having a week long
| break? You have to be out of your dorm during the break
| with no where to go but back to your parents. Also that 30k
| for a year only covers two semesters, about 6-7 months of
| actual housing, which works out to $2.5k/mo for board if we
| take half of that 30k you mentioned.
|
| I don't know where this college is but I'm going to bet
| that you can get a seriously nice place, probably a small
| house for that amount.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| WTF. My wife did the online OSU program and all we pay is
| in-state tuition (even if out of state!). She's an
| international student too!
|
| You will not be paying 30K a year for OSU e-campus. More
| like 10-15K a year or so.
| bart_spoon wrote:
| Well they said they were told to budget 30K a year, half
| for school expenses, and half for living expenses, so it
| sounds like their experience isn't contradictory with
| yours.
| thehappypm wrote:
| Living expenses for online?
| bart_spoon wrote:
| I'm losing the thread of this conversation. The original
| poster said that OSU costs around $30K per year, with
| $15K for tuition and school fees and $15K for living
| expenses. The person who replied said their wife only
| paid about $15K per year for online courses, which is in
| line with the above mentioned costs.
| Cerium wrote:
| Despite an online education, the student must still
| remain living somewhere. $1200/month seems a reasonable
| estimate for a college life.
| bradlys wrote:
| Yes and OSU is in a relatively rural and affordable part
| of Oregon. So even with the insane housing market
| explosion - $1200/month is _probably_ doable for a bare
| minimum type of living situation for a student. It'll be
| just enough if the student has no emergencies. $600
| /month rent for a room. $400/month for food. $200 for
| misc.
|
| If this was not a college town or somewhere as rural -
| you'd likely have to make it closer to $2000+ just
| because that's how expensive it is these days to live in
| cities unless you were able to buy a house a couple
| decades ago.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > You will not be paying 30K a year for OSU e-campus.
| More like 10-15K a year or so.
|
| Yeah, last time I looked it is the same tuition as if you
| were using the in-person facilities. I think that's too
| much for an online program. I paid less than $10K for my
| master's degree at Georgia Tech. That works out to about
| a third of what OSU is charging for the online undergrad
| CS degree, if my math is right. For online videos
| recorded once and watched many times, I think it should
| not cost anywhere close to what sitting in a room with a
| professor does.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| This is because the degree granted does not mention if it
| was earned online or not (and this is why we choose OSU).
| It gives literally the same degree as if you earned it in
| person.
| gorbachev wrote:
| I'm keeping my fingers crossed for scholarships.
| abeppu wrote:
| The bizarre thing with higher education costs that no one's
| really explained to me is why schools simultaneously spend more
| and more on administrators (who are full time staff), and push
| more and more teaching to adjuncts. The claim I've heard
| justifying the growth of administration staff is that regulatory
| compliance becomes more onerous over time. But no school is
| judged on their regulatory compliance. In industry, we often want
| to make sure that the core value is staff, and stuff that you
| have to do but won't distinguish you, you may as well contract
| out. So why aren't administrative compliance obligations
| contracted out to some overseas firm?
|
| We've gotten to the point where it would actually be cheaper for
| students to hire their own adjunct to each them 1:1, than to go
| to some universities.
|
| Updating with numbers:
|
| - USC tuition is >$60k/yr
|
| - Adjunct professors in CA apparently earn $34-$43k/yr
|
| https://admission.usc.edu/learn/cost-financial-aid/
|
| https://www.salary.com/research/salary/recruiting/adjunct-pr...
| skrbjc wrote:
| It's interesting because universities over-produce academics
| for the number of tenure-track jobs available, so they then
| hire those phds back into adjunct positions, which is often the
| only academic job available to them, especially if they don't
| want to move across the country to some small college in the
| middle of nowhere. So many phds just suck it up and take the
| adjunct jobs teaching undergrads. Actual professors at research
| universities aren't really even doing teaching as their primary
| job. Their primary job is to do research and publish, which is
| how they progress in their career. But universities need people
| to teach so they hire adjuncts to teach undergrads, especially
| the entry level courses.
|
| In regards to admin costs, just look at UC Berkeley, they now
| have a $25 million dollar diversity department that hires
| nearly a hundred staff, all making over $50k and getting access
| to the pension system. Lots of people will say departments like
| this are a good thing, but there's no question these
| departments cost a lot of money and inflate administrative
| costs. Berkeley has 1 staff member for every 2 students at this
| point.
|
| Look at this: " Establishment of a Supplier Diversity Program
| at an institution is required when an organization is receiving
| federal funding for contracts or subcontracts as dictated by
| the Federal Acquisition Regulations (FARS). The delegation of
| authority to manage the program is issued through the Office of
| the President (UCOP) policy." Talk about regulation causing
| bloat, to take federal contracts you need to establish an
| office that tracks and reports the diversity of your
| contractors. No wonder costs have skyrocketed.
|
| https://supplychain.berkeley.edu/supplier-diversity-faqs
| abeppu wrote:
| But, isn't there a huge gap between:
|
| A) tracking and reporting the diversity of your contractors
| (which I think a techie might accomplish with a google form
| and a spreadsheet),
|
| B) "establish an office" that performs A,
|
| C) a "$25 million dollar diversity department that hires
| nearly a hundred staff"?
| mabub24 wrote:
| A lot of universities are openly hostile to tenured professors,
| unless those professors are gigantic names in the field they
| can use for marketing. Many Universities would be a-okay with
| ditching tenure all together.
|
| The reality is many universities have gotten out of the game of
| offering quality education. They still offer education, but
| they are largely indifferent to the quality of the education,
| so adjuncts will do just as well as any professor.
|
| Instead, universities have spent enormous money and effort to
| protect and emphasize the college/university "experience." Thus
| you get an enormous amount of handholding and bureaucratization
| in higher-ed because they're functioning like giant weird
| resorts with health services, legal services, financial
| services, extra curricular services, and a whole lot of other
| crap with education as only the implied "reason" the students
| are there.
|
| > But no school is judged on their regulatory compliance.
|
| To a certain degree this is untrue. Student complaints and/or
| payee (parent) complaints for things like Title IX violations,
| as one example, mean a potential loss in federal/state funding
| and negative press. So institutions seek to bureaucratize the
| whole process from the tip of the root to the highest leaf.
| Higher-ed in the US has become a kind of ride into adulthood.
| granzymes wrote:
| Down 6.6% from Fall 2019.
|
| This is likely some combination of Covid making college
| temporarily less attractive (the social connections are just as
| important as the education) and lower-income students who have
| families that need them during the pandemic (community college
| enrollment dropped by a higher 13%).
|
| I would expect enrollment (at least at 4-year universities) to
| fully recover once the pandemic is well and truly over.
| irrational wrote:
| 50 years? Weren't the baby boomers still in college 50 years ago?
| Is this just natural from fewer babies being born in the early
| 2000s?
| ryanmarsh wrote:
| My oldest daughter is in pre-nursing and is applying to nursing
| school at her university for next year. I know of no other way to
| get into nursing but though a typical university. Thankfully the
| state of Texas is paying for her education due to the Hazelwood
| Act.
|
| My middle daughter wants to study art (she is an artist and sees
| a future in it for herself). My benefits will expire by the time
| she applies to college. So she's not likely to end up at a four
| year university.
|
| I have a hunch my youngest daughter may want to study computer
| science. Unless the cost of school changes I may put together a
| program for her myself mixed with online schools and traditional
| CS resources.
| Damogran6 wrote:
| I have two boys in post-secondary education (it would be SO much
| easier to say 'college', but one is in a community college and
| the other is in a Technical school)
|
| During a parent/student College night, the perky 20-something
| group of presenters did a GREAT job of showing the schools, the
| perks, the ways to knock a little off the top (every student gets
| a scholarship! every student gets in-state tuition!)
|
| They didn't count on me being good at math, and my reluctance to
| add nearly $600k in family debt over 4 years...that's double my
| mortgage, and I have 30 years to pay that off.
|
| I decided as the patriarch that our family didn't need to prop up
| a broken system. I'm hopeful that I'm not scuttling my children's
| chances by doing so.
|
| So I'm footing half the bill, and the boys are acquiring $20k or
| so a piece in student loans. I'm hoping that's enough for them to
| get their first job, because in my experience, that's the last
| time the sheepskin had any impact on my career.
| mproud wrote:
| Don't get me wrong, parents and guidance counselors should be
| looking out for kids, but I agree, colleges are mostly to blame.
| jack_pp wrote:
| A big reason for going to college is socializing so.. makes no
| sense to go now.
| tootahe45 wrote:
| I believe the socializing/networking thing is over-sold unless
| you go to a top-tier uni where students may be from wealthy
| families and are therefore well socialized, or do something
| non-cs like business studies. Everyone i studied with were
| introverts (gamer-types). High school was way better for
| socializing. Oh and there were like 2 females total in all of
| my CS classes.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| > Everyone i studied with were introverts (gamer-types).
|
| Trick is to find ways out of the engineering department. I
| did Latin as an optional, and I was in a sports team where
| nobody was an engineer. Plus presumably you aren't living in
| an engineering-specific halls?
| achenatx wrote:
| study in the education library...
| [deleted]
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Socialising, sport, arts, drama, many people meet their spouse
| at university, yeah lots of reasons that don't apply any more.
| brtkdotse wrote:
| You can do all of those without incurring crippling debt.
| chrisseaton wrote:
| Obviously, but a university packages it up into one
| integrated community. You can't pay to create a community.
| Maybe that's worth it to you or maybe it isn't. I spent
| eight years in university in total and really enjoyed it.
| goodpoint wrote:
| No no no, the decline predates covid by many years.
| LanceH wrote:
| I have a son in college. The services that his school offers
| are greatly reduced, but the tuition continues to climb year on
| year.
|
| If his major/career had the choice of degree vs work, the
| latter would be a really good choice right now.
| gr1zzlybe4r wrote:
| The only reason you should go to college if you're not getting a
| pre-professional degree is to network.
|
| I made the mistake of thinking that the purpose was to get what
| is essentially a certificate stating that you went to a good
| school and got good grades.
|
| I do think it was a net positive overall, but in reality I think
| I would've done just the same by going to school and networking,
| partying my ass off for 4 years, and then figuring it out after.
|
| If you can do those things without going to college then it's a
| no brainer _not_ to go.
| crate_barre wrote:
| It's just embarrassing to be educated but not well employed (a
| dignified job). The tide had to shift the other way.
| mmaunder wrote:
| Good. It's a scam. It is a horrifically inefficient knowledge
| delivery system enabled by predatory loans, with tremendous
| societal pressure to participate, and a tribal mentality that
| causes former participants to pressure their kids and friends
| into making the same mistake they did.
| lordnacho wrote:
| We have to do something about what people think college is to an
| employer. I'm excluding courses where you specifically need the
| degree: medicine, law, and maybe some others. Clearly you can't
| be a doctor or lawyer who hasn't passed his exams. Also if you
| are going to be a professor or phd naturally you will need to
| have studied whatever it is.
|
| For everyone else, all college does is shows people that you are
| diligent: you read the books, wrote the essays, passed the
| quizzes.
|
| Now, the thing is most jobs are not directly related to any
| particular degree. For example if you become an option trader
| like I did, nothing on my Engineering/Econ/Mgt was relevant. Even
| the finance parts of the management course were not relevant. You
| learn on the job. Think about it, you are at work 50-70 hours a
| week the whole year vs splitting your time at uni over a much
| shorter calendar. At work you sit next to an expert, at school
| you sit next to novices.
|
| So the whole idea that college qualifies you to do something is
| bogus. It's mainly a signal that you're teachable, and a weak
| signal that you're interested in some particular broad area.
|
| I would guess that the great majority of jobs that people with
| degrees take could have been done by the same people without
| their degree. You'll never get people to admit that if you aren't
| friends with them, but that is generally what people think as
| well.
|
| Are there other benefits to college? Certainly. You get to
| socialize, mature a bit away from home, and for most people it's
| the last time they are exposed to the great ideas that mankind
| has found over the centuries. Those things can all be done
| separately without paying for it, but currently the system is
| broken and everyone uses degrees as a social status marker, which
| is self-reinforcing: you still need a degree because if you don't
| have one you can't get those jobs that you don't need a degree to
| perform.
| nslice wrote:
| A degree is just a filter. If you get 200 applications for a
| job listing, you are going to prioritize those with relevant
| degrees.
| lordnacho wrote:
| A huge number of jobs have no relevant degree. What's the
| degree for being a management consultant? Or a pharma sales
| person?
|
| The number of jobs that are just "general business role" is
| enormous.
| stocknoob wrote:
| A college degree is a filter that someone is reasonably
| diligent, socialized to some level, and compliant enough to
| play the game. Most employers don't want some self-taught
| "I learned the same stuff for $1.50 in late charges at the
| library" type. If only 1/3 of people attend college, and
| 1/3 have a high GPA, employers get a filter for the top 11%
| of compliance & diligence without much effort.
| ls15 wrote:
| > Are there other benefits to college?
|
| I think I learned a thing or two at university.
| randomsilence wrote:
| Why does the market not work for colleges?
|
| There are plenty of adjunct professors who don't earn much. Why
| don't they join forces and create their own university?
|
| If they focus on education and limit spending on administration
| and sports, they could offer high quality, affordable education.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| Three things:
|
| 1. There actually _aren 't_ many low-paid adjuncts in hot
| fields. The CS and Eng departments subsidize the Math
| department, and STEM+finance+premed+nursing subsidizes all of
| the humanities. A philosophy adjunct is probably doing way
| better ad juncting than they would off on their own. And the
| instructional staff in the in-demand fields are generally well-
| paid.
|
| 2. The low paid (and usually not _that_ low paid) adjuncts
| within in-demand departments are generally there as a
| retirement gig... if they wanted a stressful empire building
| type of job, they 'd go into industry.
|
| 3. Runway. Adjuncts who aren't semi-retired have no access to
| capital and here's a really long lead time until an institution
| is regionally accredited. You can't take a dime of federal
| grant money, GI bill money, private scholarship money, student
| loan money, etc. until you're accredited.
| godmode2019 wrote:
| I don't see this as a problem. We certainly have a case of elite
| over production in the west. Where people study liberal arts and
| except a high paying job, and any job that they get will not ever
| pay the off the loan.
|
| Obama explains it the best. (Ignore the right wing title its a
| good video of him on his first visit to Kenya)
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fItxli7-uU0
|
| Starts at 15:13
| blululu wrote:
| It's easy to say that the crippling cost of higher education is
| behind this drop. And while college admins are slowly turning the
| screw on American students, this is more of a gradual process.
| The immediate drop here is from foreign students deciding to stay
| closer to home as a result of the pandemic, visa restrictions and
| a drop in value of actually getting to experience the culture:
| https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/decl...
| mmmmkay wrote:
| because it's a joke lol
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| I hope this catches on: https://www.wsj.com/articles/instead-of-
| tuition-students-giv...
|
| If we can align the incentives of colleges and students to find
| jobs, it will also be a win for the economy. Let students bargain
| with their future earning potential, if they don't make anything,
| the school doesn't make anything.
| Afforess wrote:
| Here's my counter: what if, instead of taxing students after
| their graduation, we taxed all adults income, then used the tax
| proceeds to make university tuition cost-free. The advantage
| would be that more students would attend, we'd have a more
| educated society, and alumni would not be worried about having
| to take the best paying job instead of one that they desire.
|
| It's win-win-win, taxpayers get free access to universities for
| themselves and their children, students avoid debt or garnished
| wages in the future, and universities get government support
| and can shut down complicated administrative overhead for
| helping students navigate financing.
|
| Now I know your thinking - does it scale? Yes! We have data
| from secondary and primary schools with the same cohort of
| students, who attend school for no cost. Attendance and
| graduation of these schools is closely correlated with life
| outcomes and success! We could apply this existing financing
| model to universities and solve the problem of tuition fees
| with by reusing the ideas from other tuition-free primary and
| secondary schools.
|
| Prob a bit long for an elevator pitch, but hey.
| leetcrew wrote:
| the linked article describes a percentage-based income
| sharing scheme. the student isn't necessarily incentivized to
| get a higher paying job than they would otherwise. the school
| definitely _is_ incentivized to guide students into more
| lucrative jobs, but that 's probably a good thing for the
| median student.
|
| as for the free college idea, this seems like a solution for
| the wrong problem. I'd argue a large chunk of students are
| already wasting their time getting a credential that
| shouldn't be necessary for the work they plan to do. I'm not
| convinced it's automatically good for more people to graduate
| college. four years is a long time to spend doing something
| without a clear, concrete reason to do so.
| baby-yoda wrote:
| skin in the game exposes what outcome a particular party is
| truly interested in. schools will avoid this like the plague,
| IMO.
| w-m wrote:
| For some perspective, in Germany we've seen rising number of
| university students since 2007: 1.94M students in 2007, 2.94M in
| 2020. From 2020 to 2021, numbers have stagnated (+0.1%).
|
| There's few private colleges (mostly international business
| schools I guess?), a large majority of students goes to the
| public universities. The eduction is free, but you pay a few
| hundred Euros per semester in administrative charges, which
| usually includes a ticket for city or state public transport.
|
| You can get a loan from the state (BAfoG) to cover living
| expenses, which you will pay back after finishing, when you have
| a job (well of course things are more complicated, but that's the
| gist). The maximum amount you have to pay back is 10.000 Euros,
| even if the size of the loan was larger.
| adolph wrote:
| From the source [0]: _Higher education enrollment fell a further
| 2.7 percent in the fall of 2021 following a 2.5 percent drop in
| the preceding fall. Continued enrollment losses in the pandemic
| represent a total two-year decline of 5.1 percent or 938,000
| students since fall 2019._
|
| In the linked PDF, they note they don't have complete data on
| international students. "In recent years, IPEDS enrollments in
| the nonresident alien category have accounted for nearly five
| percent of all IPEDS enrollments." Fall 2017
| Fall 2018 Fall 2019 Fall 2020 Fall 2021 All Sectors -1.0%
| -1.7% -1.3% -2.5% -2.7% Public 2-year -1.7% -3.2% -1.4%
| -10.1% -3.4% Public 4-year -0.2% 0.0% -1.2% 0.2% -3.0%
| Private nonprofit 4-year -0.4% 2.4% -0.6% -0.1% -1.6%
| Private for-profit 4-year -7.1% -15.1% -2.1% 5.3% -9.3%
|
| https://nscresearchcenter.org/current-term-enrollment-estima...
| noasaservice wrote:
| 1. School loans are not dismissable in bankruptcy. This is only
| shared with criminal monetary punishments.
|
| 2. Interest is charged, which is abhorrent at any rate.
| Especially the 8%.
|
| 3. PPP "loans" to the tune of almost 1t$.. which were forgiven.
| Just run a few sham job ads for software engineers at 10$/hr and
| NobOdy wAnTS tO wOrk!
|
| 4. University doesn't really provide job skills. They allude to,
| but then say they dont.
|
| 5. Jobs say they need a degree, but that's primarily due to
| https://www.naacpldf.org/case-issue/griggs-v-duke-power-co/ and
| easier to exclude black people with a 'degree'.
|
| 6. Most programs do NOT need expensive schools, labs, etc. Non-
| lab based classes can easily get by online.
|
| 7. School costs are stupid, because "Its what the market will
| bear"
|
| 8. Even public higher ed schools are stupid priced, because the
| public aspect has been surely ripped away from them.
|
| 9. Even if you DO go, you're guaranteed only one thing:
| undismissable debt. I failed out due to medical reasons. I have
| the debt, and no degree to show for it.
|
| As a millenial, higher ed is a bad bargain. And if you're
| younger, DO NOT LET HIGH SCHOOL threaten you with "if you dont go
| to school you will work as a grocery bagger for the rest of your
| life". Teach yourself IT. Get into an area, double down, learn it
| inside and out. Find a few hot tech areas. Learn them well. And
| off you go.
| endisneigh wrote:
| I love how the solution is always to do tech. What about the
| other things?
| renewiltord wrote:
| Well, the other things are likely not worth it. You can tell
| because they try to hide outcomes from prospective students.
| The things that will yield good outcome for an individual all
| lead with the outcome. The things that don't always lead with
| some sort of identity-nonsense: "You will be a well-rounded
| individual" but don't actually show the median example of
| this well-rounded individual post-degree.
| endisneigh wrote:
| Really? Tech is the only career that's likely worth it?
| noasaservice wrote:
| CS and IT have very low barriers of entry.
|
| Hardware is cheap, especially if going back a gen or 2.
| Software is free if open source'ing it. Piracy is also cheap
| too. Books and resources are plentiful, and predominantly
| cost time to experiment and do. And you can get hold of the
| developers pretty easy in open source, or dev with them.
|
| Science has costy expensive lab equipment, knowledge is less
| shared and more guarded for their guild, people are harder to
| get to.
|
| Engineering, depending on discipline, isn't even legal to
| teach yourself (professional engineer). Or it requires more
| expensive lab equipment in the ranges of 10's of thousands
| (think good oscilloscope, signal generator, rf anything).
| It's possible but really hard.
|
| Math is possibly just as 'easy' as CS/IT. However, it's a
| super elite group. They have their own in-language that's
| near impenetrable for outsiders. And the people who excel are
| not at all easy to get in contact with.
|
| Outside of STEM, there's other possible avenues. But given
| that Marx said that a capitalist society trends towards
| money-making activities in mathematics, science, and
| technology (STEM), the other avenues are probabilistically a
| bad bet. And yea, that sucks. But we also like to have enough
| money to live and enjoy life.
| chiefalchemist wrote:
| One month it's "too much student debt...blah, blah, blah" the
| next month it's "a significant number of student-aged people are
| no longer willing invest in something that results in too much
| debt and not enough return."
|
| It can't be both ways. Unless of course you're the Higher Edu
| Industrial Complex and you know NPR and their ilk have no memory
| and no integrity.
|
| Yes, there's some concern. There always is. But that doesn't make
| shamelessly crafting two opposing narratives.
| thecatster wrote:
| Might be in general, but for Ivy League and higher schools,
| they've seen record application numbers. I got denied from MIT
| and was told that they won't even refer due to the enormous
| amounts of applicants.
| Goosee wrote:
| Here is a solution that avoids the 'noise' university
| environments create.
|
| Ideally: 1. Attend an in-state university. 2. Look at your
| school's graduation report, which surveys students by major on
| their starting salary 3. Choose a program with a high starting
| salary 4. Take all general education classes online at a
| community college, starting the summer after high school
| graduation
|
| This is the most probable way to achieve a high roi on college,
| for an average american.
| joshstrange wrote:
| I believe strongly in education but most colleges are just money
| grabs. They charge ridiculously high rates that most people will
| take decades to pay off if ever. It's quite disgusting how we
| trick 17-19 year olds into taking on huge amounts of debt before
| they really have any idea what they are getting themselves into.
|
| On top of that, for certain professions, what is taught in
| colleges is an absolute joke. Computer science at my college had
| zero connection to what happens in the real world and I'm being
| completely honest when I tell you I can't think of a single thing
| I learned in college that I use in the real world. Even some of
| the more advanced types/concepts would be better taught in a ~1hr
| tutorial or video than how it was taught in my college.
|
| I'm all for giving people a broad education (I think I liked my
| non-technical/math/science classes more than the ones pertaining
| to the major I was working towards) and I think college should do
| a better job preparing people for the "real world" (budgeting,
| meal planning, conflict resolution, etc - So should high
| schools).
|
| I dropped out my junior year after being frustrated at feeling
| like I was wasting my time in classes that didn't prepare me. It
| was one the best decision I've ever made. I still got saddled
| with 3 years of debt but better than 4 and having no advantage at
| the end of it. I've never had an issue finding a job over the
| past decade+ and I'm making very good money (more than people I
| know who did graduate).
|
| We need massive college reform in this country.
| goalieca wrote:
| I feel sad for those doing a fully remote learning experience.
| disambiguation wrote:
| Less than 3k kids under the age of 24 have died from covid since
| the start of the pandemic [0] yet they have some how wound up
| with the harshest restrictions.
|
| These kids will never get these years back. What a disgrace.
|
| [0] https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-by-
| Sex...
| inanutshellus wrote:
| "I'm young and healthy, I should be allowed to spread a new
| virus to the entire planet. The health of my society is not my
| responsibility. What a disgrace."
| bopbeepboop wrote:
| You're missing two key points:
|
| 1. COVID was always going to become endemic to humans.
|
| 2. Young people are part of society -- and you're blatantly
| disregarding harm to them in your appeal to the "health of my
| society".
| Graffur wrote:
| Your first point makes no sense. The logic follows that we
| should have let the original and more deadly variants rip
| through society?
|
| Young people are part of society so they are obligated to
| protect it.
| ars wrote:
| > The logic follows that we should have let the original
| and more deadly variants rip through society?
|
| I participate in two communities - one that completely
| ignores COVID (except for a couple months at the very
| very beginning). They don't test, they don't care if
| someone is positive. Lots of people are vaccinated, but
| lots aren't (they all had COVID, they can't think of any
| reason to get vaccinated since they already are immnune).
|
| And another one that is freaked out about COVID, mask
| wearing, vaccine or you are excluded from everything,
| social distancing, keep everything closed.
|
| Somehow the longterm death rate is the same in both -
| except for those first few months. But the mental health
| in the open community is far better.
|
| It's over. COVID is over. It's time to stop closing
| everything. Take the vaccine (or don't if that's the risk
| you chose to take), and stop this meaningless theater.
| Graffur wrote:
| I don't care about your two communities to be honest
| dqv wrote:
| Anecdotes are useless. And my experience has been the
| opposite of yours. Nil deaths, one infection, same mental
| health for the cares-about-COVID community. The community
| that doesn't has had 3 deaths, dozens of infections, and
| worsened mental health from the deaths of loved ones.
|
| So why am I supposed to give more of a shit about your
| anecdote than my experience again?
|
| >It's over. COVID is over. It's time to stop closing
| everything.
|
| Uh we know. We're talking about what happened in the
| past. Everyone has been using past tense verbs.
| [deleted]
| bart_spoon wrote:
| The only reason we locked down initially was to "flatten
| the curve". This doesn't mean eliminate the virus, it
| meant slow it down long enough for the hospital system
| and government agencies to catch up in preparation. But
| even then, it was understood that this virus was going to
| be endemic and that elimination was never a possibility.
|
| > Young people are part of society so they are obligated
| to protect it.
|
| The point is that the part of society being protected is
| largely confined to older parts of the population, while
| much of the costs of doing so are disproportionately
| coming down on younger people. It's easy to say "do your
| part to protect society", but when the part of society
| being protected is the mental, social, and emotional
| development and well being of young people, as well as
| technical skills and future job prospects, older people
| seemingly have no problem casting it aside for what
| benefits them the most.
| Graffur wrote:
| You're not the same person I was replying too or is it an
| alt account?
|
| Either way, I didn't say anything about eliminating the
| virus. Hospital systems are still at risk of being
| overwhelmed... that's why restrictions are still in
| place.
|
| You're acting like younger people are the only people
| affected by the restrictions.
| dqv wrote:
| You talk about young people as if in their own world able
| to act autonomously away from the rest of society. Young
| people have parents. And they frequently rely on them into
| their mid-twenties. Many young people _lost_ one or both of
| their parents from this (and other people they loved
| dearly). As has been repeated elsewhere, dying isn't the
| only thing their parents and loved ones have to worry about
| having had COVID. The purpose of the lockdowns was to try
| to prevent this.
|
| And so I can ask the same question, why are you
| disregarding the harm done to them (them being the young
| people)?
| kd913 wrote:
| We have vaccines now, we aren't in the same situation as
| the beginning of the pandemic.
|
| The purpose of the lockdown wasn't to prevent deaths, it
| was to prevent the hospital systems collapsing.
| dqv wrote:
| >wasn't to prevent deaths
|
| >it was to prevent the hospital systems collapsing
|
| Can you _please_ apply this logic a little further as to
| what would occur if the hospital systems collapsed? Do
| you want me to spell it out for you?
| kd913 wrote:
| Yea, it would have caused more deaths from lack of
| treatment from additional surgeries, heart attacks and
| cancers which would have been left untreated. It would
| have put an absolutely devastating consequence on social
| care that would have a long lasting impact.
|
| It would have also prevented scaling of health systems
| due to a distinct and dramatic shortage in staffing and
| long term backlog.
|
| The decision above was purely economic. You would have to
| be really stupid to think the people in charge would shut
| down trillion dollar industries because the parents of
| some children died.
|
| None of that is what could be derived or implied from
| your statement you condescending prick. If that is what
| you were implying, maybe you should get a better grasp of
| English so that your point could come across clearer.
| dqv wrote:
| I apologize for adding unnecessary flame to the
| conversation. I shouldn't have responded the way I did
| and should have instead clarified my position. I'm a
| little tired of reading COVID anecdotes and brought that
| into my response to you. That's on me.
|
| >The decision above was purely economic.
|
| I think it's hyperbolic to say that it was purely
| economic. Everything we do has some connection to the
| economy. Everyone in this thread, including myself, is
| basically making an economic argument facaded by an
| emotional one. But to say it's purely economic forgets
| the connection we have with people and the reason why we
| want the hospitals to be open for people who need care. A
| real sort of "collapse" happened for some rural family
| members. They don't have a hospital for their whole
| county and have to rely on another county's hospital.
| After they ran out of beds, the people in that town just
| had to wait and hope whatever ailment they had could be
| resolved elsewhere.
|
| Back to the economy, obviously bad mental health has long
| lasting effects and that has secondary effects on the
| economy. I'm not so sure the alternative, the one where
| everything is kept open, would have worked. The
| "hospitals will collapse" scare tactic was only one
| aspect of what would have been a much larger collapse.
| Not just economic, but societal.
|
| >You would have to be really stupid to think the people
| in charge would shut down trillion dollar industries
| because the parents of some children died.
|
| You mean the hospitals? With a health system collapse,
| they just wouldn't be able to handle a lot of cases like
| you said. It wouldn't shut down in the sense that it
| would be 100% ineffective, just that
| disambiguation wrote:
| In other news, "Children are Infrequently Identified as the
| Index Case of Household SARS-CoV-2 Clusters"
|
| https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/72/12/e1146/6024998
|
| > In analysis of the cluster index cases ... only 3.8% were
| identified as having a pediatric index case.
|
| > These pediatric cases only caused 4.0% of all secondary
| cases, compared with the 97.8% of secondary cases that
| occurred when an adult was identified as the index case in
| the cluster.
|
| > Clusters where the asymptomatic/symptomatic status of the
| contact cases was not described were excluded from the
| analysis. Even with this broader definition, 18.5% children
| were identified as the index case in the household clusters.
| treis wrote:
| I don't think it's Covid related. The graph in the article
| clearly shows a steady decline that pre-dated Covid. Covid may
| have accelerated it a bit, but it's not a fundamental shift.
| disambiguation wrote:
| eye-balling from the graph: the drop in the past 2 years is
| as much as the drop in the 4 years before that (2015-2019)
|
| but yes, I agree education was in a sorry state prior to the
| pandemic as well
| epistasis wrote:
| I'm trying to imagine some other cause of death where 3000 over
| a couple years is regarded as acceptable. I think covid has
| broken people's brains, because we have gone to war, spent
| trillions, and sacrificed the lives of thousands of people in
| the US for about that size of human loss, within recent memory.
| disambiguation wrote:
| Covid is a one time risk. Overtime the average risk of death
| goes to zero.
|
| People's brains were already broken. People are bad at
| statistical risk.
|
| People are afraid of flying despite driving be much more
| dangerous.
|
| https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa-cause-of-death-by-
| ag...
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/leading_causes_of_dea.
| ..
|
| Under the age of 24, vehicle fatalities, suicide, and
| homicide lead in >3k deaths each year.
|
| https://www.foxnews.com/us/fentanyl-overdoses-leading-
| cause-...
|
| Meanwhile, 18-45 79k have died from fentanyl overdoses in the
| past 2 years vs. ~50k covid deaths in that time frame.
|
| You don't need to imagine 3k deaths being acceptable, it's in
| the data for all to see.
| epistasis wrote:
| Yeah, fentanyl is terrible! So are cars, and I spend most
| of my non-family, non-work time advocating for city
| planning that will let people who chose so to avoid cars.
|
| That does not lessen the impact of 3000 deaths among people
| who did not take on that risk.
| disambiguation wrote:
| What kind of plans do you advocate for?
|
| Are any of them on the order of magnitude of measures
| we've taken against covid?
| epistasis wrote:
| The level of car blindness in the US is at such insane
| levels that any advocacy for living that isn't car
| dependent is pretty much a completely radical take that
| people reject out of hand. So political movement is often
| limited more by what is possible rather than what the
| right course of action is.
|
| But these are not equivalent things, cars are nowhere
| near as deadly as Covid, this pandemic is likely going to
| cause 25 years' worth of car deaths because of a subset
| of the population is too morally and logically weak to
| adopt small measures.
| johnebgd wrote:
| The problem with highly infectious diseases is those who get it
| also infect others. The professors are likely in the age
| bracket that has a higher risk than the student.
| ars wrote:
| The Professor is guaranteed to get it. A Professor comes in
| contact with way too many people to even have a chance of not
| getting it.
|
| You're just pretending that you can actually do something by
| making restrictions, you actually can't.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| China has been very successful at preventing the original
| variants from spreading. So they provide an existence proof
| that it is possible, at least pre-Omicron.
|
| I'd rather live with ineffective American lockdowns than
| effective Chinese ones, but the Chinese example falsifies
| your statement.
| tomschlick wrote:
| Yeah I wouldn't believe anything related to the virus
| coming from China, especially numbers that make the CCP
| look good. They have too much of an incentive to lie,
| even more so that its finally not taboo to believe that
| the Wuhan lab was responsible for the outbreak.
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Stop the cringe, China does not live outside of the
| World. Plenty of occidental people live in China and they
| would report if any member of their entourage was getting
| covid.
|
| Also it's proven at this point that covid came from bats.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| So take your information from reports that make the CCP
| look bad, like the extreme measures taken when an
| outbreak is detected.
| ChicagoDave wrote:
| Like that number isn't horrendous in and of itself, but let's
| not forget that many young adults that have had Covid likely
| gave it to someone vulnerable as well.
|
| It's not just who dies directly from Covid. It's also the
| spread of it to vulnerable populations.
|
| It boggles the mind that this still has to be repeated. How
| many 22 year olds coming back from spring break will kill one
| of their parents or grandparents?
| ars wrote:
| That's what the vaccine is for.
|
| And if you're really concerned about spring break, then add
| all these restrictions 2 weeks before spring break.
| ChicagoDave wrote:
| Do you not understand "vulnerable population"?
|
| There are actually people that the vaccines won't help.
| They are immunocompromised. They can only be protected by
| high vaccination rates and zero exposure to Covid.
| bart_spoon wrote:
| Yes, but those people will never stop being vulnerable.
| Covid is never going away, period. Anyone saying
| otherwise has been living in a fantasy for nearly 2 years
| at this point. So completely distorting society to ensure
| zero Covid exposure has not only proven itself to be
| relatively ineffective, but it would be required to be
| done forever.
|
| The situation will be no different in a year or 5 years
| than it is from now, so continuing to argue for societal
| shutdown is completely untenable.
| ars wrote:
| So your plan is to harm millions in order to protect
| tens?
|
| People who are immunocompromised have a tough life, but
| we can't shut down the world for them. COVID is here to
| stay. Forever. You can't shut the world down forever.
| kd913 wrote:
| I can understand your opinion to a perspective, but I feel
| the position has changed dramatically. At this point,
| vaccines are available.
|
| There is almost no feasibility in eliminating COVID at this
| point in time. It will mutate, and hence we need to be
| talking about the possibility of 'living with the disease'.
|
| As such, how much damage are we doing damaging the education,
| and critical periods for these youths?
|
| If the problem is protecting the parents and grandparents,
| why not do that, and isolate them rather than permanently
| damaging the youth.
| Bhilai wrote:
| I dont disagree with the sentiment on lost years but I think
| its very easy to say that in retrospect. At beginning of 2020,
| no one knew how severe the pandemic is going to be. We did not
| have a vaccine and we did not know which age groups are going
| to be most vulnerable.
| disambiguation wrote:
| I think that's a fair point.
| bopbeepboop wrote:
| syki wrote:
| In my college system I'm responsible for cleaning my classroom
| after each use. If I forget to do this and a student gets sick
| then I'm personally liable. I'm not paid enough to clean
| classrooms and teach and I'm not taking on the liability. Thus,
| I haven't taught in the classroom for the last 2 years.
| modernpink wrote:
| That is outrageous if true. An airborne virus is best treated
| with ventilation (i.e. opening windows). Surface transmission
| almost never happens [1]. The irony of course being that
| having a cleaner go in and out of rooms poses much greater
| risk of spread.
|
| [1] COVID-19 rarely spreads through surfaces. So why are we
| still deep cleaning?
| https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4
| isoskeles wrote:
| I went to the hospital two days ago. Plenty of COVID
| warnings were posted all over the place. One was a sign,
| last updated in February of 2020, that suggested you leave
| if you've been in contact with anyone who recently
| travelled to China, Korea, Iran, or Italy.
| treis wrote:
| >That is outrageous if true
|
| It's not true.
| syki wrote:
| Consider that some colleges asked students to sign
| liability waivers to go back to the classroom. I don't
| have the memorandum the chancellor sent to us at the
| beginning of the pandemic so I can't prove that my
| statement is truthful but it does appear plausible given
| that some colleges asked students to sign waivers.
|
| I don't know if the rules that my system put in place at
| the beginning of the pandemic are still in force. They
| may have put that rule in place just to make sure we all
| went online when this mess first started. I just know I'm
| not going back to the classroom until most of my
| colleagues do too. My college is still almost entirely
| online.
|
| EDIT: Chancellor's memorandum was about cleaning
| protocols. The union advised us on liability issues and
| said that we could be liable for sicknesses if we fail to
| follow the protocol. My union membership includes a $1
| million liability coverage for the classroom. They might
| have brought up this as a way of saying that our
| classroom insurance does not cover this possibility.
|
| https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/08/03/students-
| aske...
| treis wrote:
| And yet we are 2 years into the pandemic with 0
| successful lawsuits over personal liability for poor
| cleaning. There's just no realistic legal liability in
| the situation described.
| syki wrote:
| I didn't claim there were any successful lawsuits. I just
| claimed that potential liability was one of the reasons
| I'm not teaching in the classroom.
| [deleted]
| disambiguation wrote:
| that's too bad, surface transmission has been debunked for
| almost a year now.
|
| https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-
| and-r...
|
| > the relative risk of fomite transmission of SARS-CoV-2 is
| considered low compared with direct contact, droplet
| transmission, or airborne transmission
| bart_spoon wrote:
| How on earth could they possibly identify your lack of
| cleaning with someone's infection? Seems like something that
| sounds scary but the real world implications are meaningless.
| davidw wrote:
| I wonder how this compares to, say, a basket of European
| countries, which don't suffer from some of the cost problems that
| US universities do.
| ChicagoDave wrote:
| I have 3 college-aged kids and one nearly there. Their universal
| concern is the cost. It has become prohibitive.
|
| Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year
| would be sustainable. They were dead wrong, especially given the
| horrendously predatory loans backed by the government and barred
| from bankruptcy.
|
| If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would likely
| skyrocket.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year
| would be sustainable.
|
| Barely anyone pays full tuition.
|
| Look up the statistics for any of the big colleges that share
| numbers. It's usually less than 10% of students paying full
| tuition. Significant numbers of students pay under $10K and
| many pay basically nothing at all.
|
| It's still too expensive, but the myth that everybody is paying
| $50K/year at these colleges needs to die. It ends up convincing
| a lot of people who _shouldn't_ be paying that much that
| everyone else is doing it and therefore they should too.
| ljhsiung wrote:
| Can I see your source?
|
| Here's mine [1] -- at UIUC, full tuition is 35-50k depending
| on residency. 30% get free tuition (given their family's net
| worth <50k/gross income < 67k) and 40% got some form of a
| loan averaging 20k.
|
| Assuming very generous loans (unlikely), 30% of people paid
| full price, or about 10,000 students (undergrad class size is
| 30-35k). That's not trivial, but definitely off your 10%
| claim.
|
| (Here [2] it is more succinctly, and not in a large
| picturesque landing page advertisement fashion)
|
| Now some anecdata-- I paid 35k. Every college friend I knew
| also paid full, except one, who had crazy interest rates on
| her loan. I recognize my friend group may be a bubble, so I
| preface this with "anecdata" and gave you some sources on my
| own.
|
| [1] https://admissions.illinois.edu/invest/financial-aid
|
| [2] https://osfa.illinois.edu/other-financial-aid-options/
| lvl100 wrote:
| I am convinced college is more or less priced off of
| prestigious private high schools where the parents simply pay
| cash. For the wealthy it is acceptable to pay 60-70K per year
| for their kids. Clearly this represents the wealth gap in this
| country.
| bastardoperator wrote:
| My nephew did community college (free) for two years and
| transferred in state to the UC system which is about 14K a
| year. He qualified for some grants/scholarships which covered
| more than half the cost for each semester. He was able to pay
| off his school loans in his first year out of college. School
| costs are insane, but there are easy ways to save considerable
| amounts of money.
| Dig1t wrote:
| Doesn't it vary pretty wildly depending on the school?
|
| I also was very concerned about cost when going college, so I
| went with the cheapest route possible and also worked a job
| during college. I went to community college for 2 years while
| living at my parent's house, which was very cheap, it cost
| about $1000 per year for that. Then I transferred to a cheaper
| in-state school, in my case it was one in the California State
| University system (CSU) which is way cheaper though not quite
| as well known as the UC system (UC Berkeley is part of that
| system), which cost me about 10k per year for the final 2
| years.
|
| In all I was able to get through college with no debt and a
| degree in Computer Science for a total cost of 22k. I think
| there is a mindset that students should always attend the best
| possible school that they are admitted to, but this seems
| pretty dumb to me as they are usually expensive for big brand
| names and in the end you receive the same degree and learn the
| same things.
|
| What I did also happened in California, I think some states
| have even cheaper paths through college if you go with the
| community college + in-state university route.
| ahoho wrote:
| If you go to a big name school the aid packages are usually
| much more generous, so total cost may even be below $22k
| (depending on your circumstances). Also, I'd push back on the
| idea that outcomes are comparable across schools. A degree
| from most Ivies has a measurable impact on future earnings,
| even controlling for parental income and academic aptitude.
| soheil wrote:
| The administrative fees are outrageous. Administration staff
| effectively getting paid from student loans just to set more
| guidelines and procedures in place for students to follow and
| for themselves to gain more power is perverse incentives.
|
| https://www.wsj.com/articles/stop-feeding-college-bureaucrat...
| sylens wrote:
| Yes, it's quite clearly this.
|
| Millennials have been out there for nearly a decade yelling on
| social media about how ridiculous their student loans are. Kids
| on the precipice of college have started paying attention.
| Combine that with the restrictions for Covid, and you have a
| lot of kids who don't think that taking on tens of thousands
| (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars in debt is worth it
| for some Zoom classes.
| paulpauper wrote:
| _you have a lot of kids who don 't think that taking on tens
| of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars in
| debt is worth it for some Zoom classes._
|
| Yeah, but you are assuming people only go to college for its
| educational value , ignoring that college grads tend to have
| much higher wages and lower unemployment compared to high
| school grads. If you look at FIRE subs for example, almost
| everyone who attains early retirement has a degree. The
| college wage premium is amplified by both higher wages and
| higher returns from investments by investing said wages in
| rapidly appreciating stocks and real estate (the post-2009
| bull market in real estate and stocks, on an real basis,
| exceeds even the '80s and '90s).
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| > _you have a lot of kids who don 't think that taking on
| tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of dollars
| in debt is worth it for some Zoom classes._
|
| > Yeah, but you are assuming people only go to college for
| its educational value , ...
|
| But that's exactly the point, a huge expectation of going
| to college is the whole college experience: building
| independence, lifelong friendships, extracurriculars, etc.
| 50k for Zoom? Fuck that.
| ozzythecat wrote:
| You're implying causation - that a college degree is the
| cause of these outcomes. I'm not convinced that's true, and
| in my mind, it might be one of the most damaging beliefs.
|
| It could be that people who are driven or passionate, on
| average, want to pursue higher education, or that they take
| on risks, exercise their brains in learning endeavors, and
| it's their effort and drive that leads to success.
|
| It's entirely possible that high earners have college
| degrees because they were told that to be successful, they
| had to go to college. It's a belief they were raised with.
|
| I think it's highly misguided that we give college so much
| credit. And we also demonstrate survivorship bias where
| those who went to college but didn't get the pay off are
| blamed for having made some wrong decision.
|
| We treat higher education as a silver bullet and put it on
| a pedestal when it's not.
| paulpauper wrote:
| This may be true, but at the same time, if the goal is to
| make a lot of money, rich parents and other luck aside, a
| college degree in a high-paying major is probably the
| best shot at it, instead for example trying to copy Garry
| Vanverchuck or Steve Jobs. Drive and effort apply for all
| professions, but it's just that college grads will get a
| higher return for their effort.
| cpascal wrote:
| I'm glad that there is much more awareness and consideration
| around cost.
|
| When I was in high school and applying to colleges around
| 2011, the advice given to us was to not take cost too
| seriously. Many authority figures (like high school
| counselors) told my peers and I to, "follow your heart" or
| "go where you think you'll fit in best".
|
| On top of that, student loans and interest rates where not
| explained to us very well. Very few of us understood that
| borrowing 160k-200k to go to an out-of-state/private school
| could very well mean you were signing up for a lifelong debt.
|
| Looking back, its insane we could make such a life
| altering/hindering decision with so little oversight from the
| "adults".
| samarama wrote:
| Are student loans really such an issue?
|
| 85% of graduates have less than $50,000 in student loans.
| Paid off over 20 years, that's really not much.
| https://www.rclco.com/wp-content/uploads/advisory-student-
| de...
|
| Additionally, those that have much higher loans are usually
| medical students who make $200,000/year at the entry level.
| thehappypm wrote:
| A $50,000 loan with a high interest rate is not good AT
| ALL.
| xhkkffbf wrote:
| Exactly. The fellow above is foolish to think that even
| $10k is manageable for people in entry level jobs. Even
| good coders have to strain to pay off $10k-20k.
|
| Plus, you're right that the interest rate is insane when
| banks are paying 1%.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| "Below $50,000". And student loans have low rates unless
| you go private. Of course, who is more likely to need
| private loans they may not be able to pay? Probably not
| the trust fund kids.
| giaour wrote:
| "Low rates" here meaning 8%?! It's lower than credit card
| APR, but would you take a large installment loan at that
| rate?
|
| The interest rate especially shocking when you consider
| that interest is supposed to pay for the creditor taking
| on the risk of default, which is almost impossible with
| student loans.
| swagasaurus-rex wrote:
| You hit on a key point. Lender sees non-dischargeable
| loans as FREE MONEY.
|
| They're pushing these onto kids who are barely adults
| because its FREE MONEY to them.
| selectodude wrote:
| Federal loan maximums for dependent students is $31,000.
| Huge numbers of students need to dip into the private
| loan kitty and get fucked.
| paulpauper wrote:
| By that logic there should be much more outrage about
| credit card debt, car loan debt.
| giaour wrote:
| Unlike student loans, those debts can be discharged in
| bankruptcy.
| drak0n1c wrote:
| Federal guarantees for the $120+ billion in annual new
| student loans that the DOE boasts of in its annual letter
| are still one of the primary drivers of tuition inflation -
| with tuition increases compounded over decades that
| increases costs for both those who take loans and those who
| don't.
| issa wrote:
| If you are in the US and know people who are aged 30-50 and
| not software engineers, this is almost all that they talk
| about. Some people manage to pay them off, others (due to
| high interest) owe more than when they started. It is a
| huge problem.
| samarama wrote:
| Do you have sources for this, because the numbers don't
| reflect this.
| cableshaft wrote:
| Yep, I'm a software engineer and just about to pay them
| off (I slowed down because of the deferred loans, could
| have had it done in 2020).
|
| Meanwhile my wife only makes an appreciable dent in hers
| whenever she gets a gift from family members, and she's
| still paying $900 a month to not do much more than tread
| water. She did get it paid down a bit more thanks to the
| past two years of deferrals, but she still owes a lot
| more than I ever borrowed (two years of my school were
| paid for by a scholarship).
|
| It's been a steady drag on our income since we've been
| together. At least mine is just about to go away, mine
| was $400/month as well... that $1300/month is almost as
| much as our mortgage payment.
|
| I have multiple friends that have just given up on ever
| paying off their student loan debt in their lifetime and
| only pay enough to keep it where it is (or slowly
| increasing even). You wonder why people aren't buying
| homes and having children, there it is. I guess the
| solution to overpopulation is just saddle everyone with a
| bunch of debt, then.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Part of the issue is that you can get these loans
| regardless your program. Chemical engineering? Here you go.
| Studying gay romances in 14th century literature? Yup,
| here's your 50k too.
|
| One of those people can pay that loan off in two years. One
| of them is likely never going to pay it off without a
| career change.
|
| Of course, we probably don't want loan officers picking
| what poor people can major in either.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| I'm an advocate for requiring career counseling before
| taking out student loans.
|
| I would not say that people should be denied based on
| their chosen major, but prospective students should be
| shown statistics on the average salaries, unemployment,
| and usage rates of the major they're interested in and
| compare it to the projected costs and resulting loan
| debt.
| giaour wrote:
| The person studying gay romances in 14th century
| literature is probably a PhD student with a stipend and
| full tuition remission. They're getting subsidized by MBA
| tuition dollars, not by loans.
| ativzzz wrote:
| Sure, but they go through an undergrad in English or
| something similar before they are a PhD, for which they
| take the loan, then they don't earn any money (just
| enough to subsist) while the interest on their undergrad
| loan accrues. Or the interest may be deferred but the
| loan is still there.
| rdtwo wrote:
| The chemistry undergrad has similar career prospects
| sadly
| paulpauper wrote:
| this times 100x. The problem may seem really bad, but wages
| are high enough that college grads still earn more than
| high school grads even after accounting for inflation and
| student loan debt.
| belval wrote:
| It's probably my Canadian experience talking, but this
| sentence:
|
| > 85% of graduates have less than $50,000 in student loans.
| Paid off over 20 years, that's really not much.
|
| It is pretty terrifying that you manage to mentally justify
| going in debt for 20 years over your college education. I
| understand that given a good job it's easy to pay it back,
| but I never even borrowed even a tenth of that to complete
| my engineering degree and I've probably paid my education
| back several time in taxes to the government.
| qaq wrote:
| But there is no magic you are paying higher taxes and
| that's not for 20 years it's forever
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| There are two sources of "magic":
|
| 1. Efficiency. Canadian universities deliver
| similar/better products at much lower cost. Not just cost
| at point of use, but actual "amount of money spend
| annually to deliver education".
|
| 2. Financing model. Taxation allows you to fund things
| without paying interest to a middle man. If you pay off a
| set of loans whose principle is 50K, but with 5%-7%
| interest rates, then you're paying a lot more than 50K.
| So even if the products were equal in price, the taxation
| model might work out ahead.
| qaq wrote:
| thats great in theory the thing is though that US student
| will make 15K more after tax so break even will be 3.3y
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| 1. That number seems way off. What are your assumptions?
|
| 2. I haven't looked at the data, but I'm going to go out
| on a _VERY_ short branch here and assert that the _entire
| delta_ between US and CA tax rates is not consumed by
| higher education.
| qaq wrote:
| this would obviously depend on the field but generally
| there is significantly lower comp in Canada vs US for the
| same job. Taxes are lower in US too.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> but generally there is significantly lower comp in
| Canada_
|
| Right, I figured. This is entirely orthogonal to the
| discussion about the problems with higher ed in the us...
| belval wrote:
| Honestly (I know that's not true of all states) but I
| worked in California and the taxes I was paying there
| were higher than my taxes in Quebec/British Columbia.
|
| Yes taxation is higher, but I still feel like we get a
| lot more bang for our bucks here.
| qaq wrote:
| Well that's one exception but in CA public Unis are good
| and fairly cheap.
| [deleted]
| rileyphone wrote:
| Yes, we shouldn't penalize people for getting an education
| and becoming better citizens. Many are drowning in the non-
| absolvable debt for student loans. And the entry level out
| of med school is a residency making a third of that number.
| dzonga wrote:
| I know someone who's about to a Physical Therapist,
| doctorate. she's gonna leave school owing 200k+. yet
| starting salary will be 85k that I made coming out of state
| college as a CS grad.
| ryanSrich wrote:
| It's mind boggling how bad student loans are looking back at
| it. It was just normal to spend $100k over 4 years.
|
| I finally paid mine and my wife's off in 2020 and when I did
| the math, combined we paid $216k over 7 years post college.
| We were both lucky enough to have well paying jobs, but so so
| many people don't. Some of these people even with decent jobs
| will be paying $500-$1000/m for nearly the rest of their
| lives.
| bart_spoon wrote:
| Plus the amount and quality of alternative learning resources
| is very high, at least in some fields. I know coding
| bootcamps get a bad rep, often justified, but at the same
| time my buddy went to college for a degree in HR and I went
| for STEM. He ended up hating HR, did a 9 week boot camp,
| managed to get a job, and after a few years of experience is
| in roughly the same place as me and is thriving. It took him
| a little longer because of the time spent in HR, but
| ultimately he ended up with the same skill set I did between
| the 9 weeks of intensive study combined with on the job
| experience. Meanwhile I got a broader education, but the
| majority of it isn't very relevant on a day to day basis, if
| ever.
|
| It's a single anecdote, but between online resources and
| alternative training programs, it seems harder to justify
| spending tens of thousands of dollars on college.
| paulpauper wrote:
| _It 's a single anecdote, but between online resources and
| alternative training programs, it seems harder to justify
| spending tens of thousands of dollars on college._
|
| The evidence suggests that bootcamp grads struggle at
| finding good jobs, and also bootcamps charge a lot up-
| front, whereas collages have more aid and other programs to
| defer payment.
| Frost1x wrote:
| >Meanwhile I got a broader education, but the majority of
| it isn't very relevant on a day to day basis, if ever.
|
| While I agree with your core sentiment, my opinion is that
| this is a symptom of a cultural/societal problem and not
| one of the schools. Modern Universities are certainly ripe
| with problems (largely driven by adopting business
| structures), including generally poor quality courses and
| curriculum within them, but I think you've identified a
| larger societal problem we have.
|
| Why is it that broad education which is generally, at the
| very least in my opinion, clearly valuable yet so lowly
| valued in society? It's my opinion that we have
| institutional structures that, given a lack of
| opportunities, value specialized and specific knowledge
| over general knowledge.
|
| Meanwhile, if you have the capability to escape these
| institutional shackles, general knowledge becomes far more
| valuable. On the labor side, labor markets are all about
| jobs and specialized roles with efficient production from
| that role. On the capital side, you need more general
| knowledge to see, connect, and sieze opportunities. It
| seems to me that most lack enough genuine _realizable
| opportunity_ where general knowledge becomes valuable (say,
| seeking entrepreneurship) and in such a set of constraints,
| it makes complete sense why people specialize and chase
| demand of specialization because it 's their most optimal
| strategy for financial success.
|
| I work in R&D in startup-esk environments and my general
| knowledge is fairly well valued, however even here
| leadership sometimes fail to see how some book or article I
| read years ago, course I took, project I worked on years
| ago, etc. was critical to making the connection that made
| this research thing possible.
|
| They value the general subset of knowledge I have that made
| their thing possible (oh boy you know A, B, and C and those
| saved us!!!), never mind the hydrology work I've done, it's
| irrelevant (D, or so they think, even though I may draw on
| concepts from such domains opaquely) or perhaps hours of
| video gaming (E, which lead to a game theoretic intuition
| about approaching an underlying problem). That knowledge
| was only appreciated after the fact because it made someone
| a pile of money or positioned a large contract.
|
| I remember hating taking geology in college because "I'd
| never use it," then I did a lot of applied science and R&D
| in the fossil fuels industry and suddenly a lot of "silly"
| things I did in geology gave me a foundation to jump from
| and to build upon. That silly geology course made me
| boatloads of money in retrospect. Throughout my career I
| always like to look back when I have a problem and say "ah
| ha, I sure am glad I studied or read about X years ago,
| that's one less thing I need to internalize now to do this
| thing." I'm always surprised how much old general knowledge
| I draw upon for new problems and how valuable they truly
| are.
| feoren wrote:
| It may seem right now like someone who did a 9-week
| bootcamp is in the same place as you, but the differences
| will start to show up after a few years. I have degrees in
| both CS and Math, and I often say that I got the most
| benefit from my CS degree in the first ~5 years of my
| career, and from my Math degree since then. The tech your
| buddy learned in bootcamp will get stale and he'll have to
| start over; meanwhile your deeper level of knowledge will
| help you contribute to the development of the next era of
| whatever you're working on. This is assuming other factors
| are roughly equal; of course if your buddy spends more time
| on self-learning than you, this might not come true.
| pcthrowaway wrote:
| I graduated 10 years ago, and I don't feel like my degree
| benefits me much other than marginally in reputation.
|
| I learned more practical skills from free online classes
| and tutorials than I did from my entire university
| program, and I can think of maybe a handful of times I've
| thought about complexity analysis. But I've also entirely
| avoided whiteboard interviews, so perhaps myself and
| prospective employers have selected for my weakness in
| academic computer science concepts.
| f6v wrote:
| > Plus the amount and quality of alternative learning
| resources is very high, at least in some fields
|
| Out of interest, what are other fields besides IT?
| epistasis wrote:
| I've heard tales of people with interest rates of 7%+ on
| student loans, and the official rates are not incredibly low
| either:
|
| https://studentaid.gov/understand-aid/types/loans/interest-r...
|
| Any loan that is charging 6.28% interest and also _cant_ be
| discharged by bankruptcy is just usury with current interest
| rates.
| sokoloff wrote:
| An interest rate on something that is entirely
| uncollateralized and granted to someone with no income and
| often no credit history nor assets is usurious at a rate of
| around 2x that of an owner-occupied house with 20% down, an
| income of >3x the monthly payments, and a 740+ credit score?
| That is quite far from obvious to me.
| epistasis wrote:
| If they have to make it undischargable in bankruptcy, that
| is a pretty big clue that the loan is usurious, IMHO.
| sokoloff wrote:
| How much money would you personally be willing to lend to
| a high school senior with no collateral, no credit, and
| no job who plans to study for 4 years and then file for
| bankruptcy?
|
| _That's_ why they're not discharged in bankruptcy: to
| make them possible to be made en masse.
| epistasis wrote:
| I'm not disagreeing with that point, I'm disagreeing that
| these sorts of loans should be legal at all, much less
| that they should be a common method of funding the
| education necessary for the knowledge workers of the
| future.
| sokoloff wrote:
| If you're going to have people study for 4 years past
| grade 12, someone's got to pick up the tab for their
| rent, food, entertainment, and clothes/supplies at least.
|
| If we disallow lending, that would tend to limit the
| attendance at "away from home" colleges and universities
| to the upper middle and upper classes. I don't know that
| outcome is obviously "better". It would be a massive boon
| to the wealthier families as compared to today.
|
| I benefited massively from student loans and Army ROTC
| scholarship; I don't want to see that taken away from
| future generations (even if removing that would benefit
| my family).
| epistasis wrote:
| Rather than loans, we should reinvest in state
| universities, which in general have been massively
| defunded over the past decades, and also tie that
| additionally funding to reduced student costs so that the
| money goes where it should. The decision to attend
| university should be made more on the basis of student
| capabilities and available slots than on having big loans
| or ROTC access (and ROTC experience is a great thing,
| that has its own wonderful merits)
| treis wrote:
| Bankruptcy isn't a get out of debt free card. You can
| only get debt that you can't realistically repay
| discharged. The new graduate with a job at Google making
| $150k isn't getting their student loans discharged.
|
| So the answer to your question is as much as I think they
| could reasonably repay based on their earning potential
| after graduation. Which is a reasonable answer to the
| whole problem except that it hands a huge advantage to
| rich kids who's parents can write that tuition check.
| agentdrtran wrote:
| I had 11% interest rates my first two years, but I had to
| take out private loans.
| lumost wrote:
| This Happened to me on loans taken out between '07 and '10.
| The liquidity crises meant that banks stopped lending to
| students, and everyone assumed that interest rates would
| rise. I got locked into 7.25-8% fixed on roughly 80k in debt
| which I paid off over the next 10 years. Unfortunately a bout
| of unemployment in 2010 prevented me from refinancing.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Me too, I'm still stuck with 10k at (now 10.5%) taken out
| then
| pkage wrote:
| I recall that in 2016 First Marblehead (now Cognition
| Financial) was offering interest rates of up to 13% (!) and
| averaging 11% (!!) on NYU tuition ($60k/yr for a 4 year
| degree). I recall during my application that they were very
| heavily pushing for me to finance my degree there.
| Thankfully, I went elsewhere.
|
| The chair of NYU's Board of Trustees at the time was William
| Berkley. Perhaps coincidentally, he also headed the board of
| First Marblehead. I'm sure there was no conflict of interest,
| though.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| > Any loan that is charging 6.28% interest and also cant be
| discharged by bankruptcy
|
| The interest rates are high because so few loans can be
| discharged by bankruptcy. You can refinance your mortgage
| with anyone. Far few companies will refinance your student
| loans.
|
| Meanwhile, it makes prefect sense that bankruptcy cannot
| discharge student loans. Otherwise, every single student
| would have crappy credit from 21-28 and no student loans
| ever.
| megaman821 wrote:
| They should be dischargable after 8-10 years. If you are
| willing to declare 8 years after graduating, you should be
| able to get your debt restructured or forgiven.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| They are currently discharged (without bankruptcy) at 20
| years. Yes that's a big difference, but it is an
| important point.
| epistasis wrote:
| If "makes perfect sense" solution to college is usury, we
| have serious problems with our higher education system.
|
| It's time to start funding these schools adequately so that
| they do not immiserate everyone except those with wealthy
| parents. It's the opposite of a meritocracy.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Schools will increase their expenses and tuition to fill
| loan capacity plus public funding, as they've already
| been doing.
| epistasis wrote:
| I'm not sure if the spending or funding side is bigger
| issue, and surely this depends somewhat on the school,
| but both must be brought in line rather than forcing it
| onto our future workers.
|
| The one thing we can't do is stop funding because we have
| pre-decided that it won't lower tuition. It's easy to
| attach strings to money, let's do that.
| jrsj wrote:
| I honestly think keeping people in debt so they have to work
| more & for longer is considered a feature of the system by a
| majority of the people running it
| xhkkffbf wrote:
| Absolutely true. And many of the degrees don't lead anywhere.
| The smart kids are the ones that aren't in college.
|
| When I hire now, I always look for kids who are willing to
| teach themselves and learn from all of the good sources on the
| Internet. Places like Coursera, Udemy or even YouTube. They're
| reasonably priced.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| Aren't state colleges must cheaper than that?
| taylodl wrote:
| There's tuition and there's room & board. In my state the
| tuition is $10K/yr but the room & board is $15K/yr. It
| doesn't help that the largest public college in my state
| doesn't have enough dorm rooms for all their students so by
| Junior year you _have_ to have moved out. Have you seen rent
| lately? Taken a look at your grocery bill? There are many
| costs factoring in to the high cost of higher education.
| eschewobfuscat wrote:
| When I went to Colorado State University (by no means
| prestigious) tuition ran around $2,300 [1] and is now almost
| triple [2] per semester, I could rent a 2 bedroom apartment
| and live alone for $735, where as that's now sharing a 3
| bedroom apartment. Renting the apartment I had is closer to
| $1,300 per month, or nearly double what I paid. It's not very
| affordable, whereas I could relatively easily afford it.
|
| [1] http://irpe-
| reports.colostate.edu/pdf/tuition/Tuition_Fees_H...
|
| [2] https://financialaid.colostate.edu/media/sites/38/2018/05
| /Un...
| jrsj wrote:
| Many now make room and board mandatory and when you factor
| that in with tuition, books, etc you can get to $25k total
| cost even with in-state tuition. I don't know how common this
| is exactly but Ohio State does this for freshman and
| sophomores now.
| epistasis wrote:
| Without room and board, University of California fees are
| around $20k. And none of the college towns have adequate
| housing, so any sort of housing is absolutely through the
| roof.
| cgearhart wrote:
| "The University of California is the world's leading public
| research university." [1] So $20k/yr seems like a steal.
| Meanwhile, if you're price sensitive then you can go to one
| of the 26 Cal State campuses for ~$8k/yr (Cal Poly SLO is
| an outlier at $10k). [2] If you're _really_ looking to keep
| costs down, head to community college for two years to
| finish a Cal State transferable AA, then have guaranteed
| admission to a Cal State school and only two years there to
| finish your BS /BA. [3] It should cost <$20k in total to do
| community college and cal state if you did it in 4 years.
|
| Housing and supplies are still expensive, and _yes_ it's
| still very expensive to go to college, but there are
| affordable options out there for college.
|
| [1] https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/uc-system [2]
| https://www.calstate.edu/attend/paying-for-
| college/Documents... [3]
| https://www.calstate.edu/apply/transfer/pages/ccc-
| associate-...
| zdragnar wrote:
| In my experience, "Research universities" are a joke for
| undergrad students. All it means for most of them is that
| their classes will be taught by graduate students because
| the "professors" are too busy doing research to be
| bothered with such trivial work.
|
| You need to be pretty lucky in your final years or
| actually going for masters or PHD to really be exposed to
| the research side of things.
|
| It's a steal alright, but I cant say I agree with who is
| coming out ahead.
| cgearhart wrote:
| I guess my point was that the price of a school system
| that touts itself as a world-leading research university
| may not be the best baseline for the cost of college--
| even if it's a public university system. The Cal State
| system has always been the "affordable" public option for
| college in California.
| zdragnar wrote:
| Yeah, that is fair. I guess my gripe is with the idea
| that research universities charge undergraduates more at
| all. If anything, most students get a much worse
| experience and learning environment as a result.
|
| My own experience was that professors who were not
| currently research oriented tended to have a much more
| personal interest in actually teaching- not just the
| material, but in the practice of pedagogy overall.
|
| Compare that to researching professors (or worse, their
| grad student substitutes) and it is often a night and day
| difference. All you're really paying more for is often
| the name on your diploma at the end of the day.
| yakz wrote:
| State colleges can be cheaper, but they're not as cheap as
| they used to be in a lot of places. Many states cut back
| funding for their universities.
|
| "Overall state funding for public two- and four-year colleges
| in the school year ending in 2018 was more than $6.6 billion
| below what it was in 2008 just before the Great Recession
| fully took hold, after adjusting for inflation."
|
| "Between school years 2008 to 2018, after adjusting for
| inflation: * 41 states spent less per
| student. * On average, states spent $1,220, or 13
| percent, less per student. * Per-student funding fell
| by more than 30 percent in six states: Alabama, Arizona,
| Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and Pennsylvania."
|
| https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-
| hig...
| commandlinefan wrote:
| > Their universal concern is the cost.
|
| I have a senior in high school right now and although I think
| you're right - he's concerned about a potential quarter-million
| dollar tuition bill before this whole thing is over - he's also
| concerned about the whole selectivity of it all. From the
| outside looking in, you never know what's important and what's
| not. He has this feeling (and I'm not sure I can dispute it)
| that the only degrees that matter are degrees from hyper-
| selective ivy league schools and if the only school he can get
| into is Texas Tech, he might as well just give up and go into a
| trade. I remind him that I went to a no-name school and I'm
| doing fine but he says "things are different than when you were
| young", and I'm not 100% sure he's wrong.
| ryathal wrote:
| If you want to be a college grad hired by Google, college
| name matters. If you want to move across the country, college
| name matters. If you want to stay in the region/state, not
| choose a garbage tier college is all that matters. It's not
| Ivy league or bust, but choosing top 100 university for
| chosen field is a good bet.
| kd913 wrote:
| I feel the key bit here is to look at the outcome of the
| education. He is right to be worried about a quarter-million
| dollar tuition bill, and there is absolutely no point in
| doing so for a path with poor job prospects.
|
| There are some paths where the university choice does matter,
| others that don't.
|
| Going into the trades is not a bad idea I think, but again it
| needs to be a conscious decision for the pros and the cons.
|
| I think the key bit is do some research, try and get a week
| long internship in the job that he is looking for and/or try
| to speak with seniors/grads.
| Eridrus wrote:
| There is a lot of defeatism floating around these days that
| isn't really warranted, there's good evidence that what you
| study matters as much as where, e.g.
| https://www.air.org/news/press-release/when-it-comes-your-
| pa...
|
| Barely scraping through an engineering degree or getting a
| degree in architecture at texas tech is certainly a bad idea,
| but the average engineering graduate is doing better than the
| trades.
|
| More of this data is public now on graduate outcomes, e.g.
| https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/texas/texas-tech-
| univ...
| owlbite wrote:
| My cousin seemed to have it worked out. Do as many relevant
| AP classes for credit as possible, finish the first two years
| worth of credits at a community college for $cheap and then
| transfer to a brand-name school for the final part.
|
| My general impression is "has a degree with min GPA x.y" is a
| HR check-box that is necessary to get past an initial screen
| for a lot of large company roles. After you've got a couple
| of years experience no-one on the interview panel likely
| cares about the school you went to (and if they do, maybe
| give that firm a miss) compared to what you've done in the
| past 3 years.
| munificent wrote:
| The degree is only part of the value proposition of a
| college, though. The actual education you get (not just the
| paper proving it), the meaningful experiences you have, the
| social connections you forge, and the opportunities you
| encounter in the environment are all hugely important.
|
| I went to college and dropped out, so the value of my non-
| existent degree is literally zero. But I got a _ton_ of value
| out of my time there. I met a lot of friends, grew
| significantly as a person, and found a job opportunity that
| started me on my career path.
|
| I still think college is way too expensive these days, but if
| you think of it as only purchasing a degree, you're missing a
| lot.
| ngc248 wrote:
| How many people are getting into selective schools? It cant
| be more than a few thousands, so indeed there are
| opportunities for those who go to non-selective schools. It
| depends in the end.
|
| Problem is we always keep hearing about these selective
| schools in the media and that colours out perception a lot.
| Of course try as much as possible to get into a selective
| school, but if one is unable to, there are still
| opportunities.
| treis wrote:
| >How many people are getting into selective schools? It
| cant be more than a few thousands,
|
| Much more than that. The ivy league admits ~20k a year.
| That number jumps to a few hundreds of thousands if you
| extend to flagship state schools & the Dukes,
| Northwesterns, and Stanfords of the world.
| hallway_monitor wrote:
| > give up and go into a trade
|
| Exactly this, without the "give up" part. Why is going into a
| trade giving up? It's choosing a different path than the one
| that has been shoved down all our throats like it is the only
| respectable option. University is not for everyone, and not
| everyone can go there. There's simply not enough room.
|
| I think going into trades is what I want my son to do. I love
| Mike Rowe's thoughts on this - you can make excellent money,
| get started fast and be working for yourself by the time you
| would get a precious 4-year degree. And trades are in serious
| need of new people; seems like a great opportunity.
| learc83 wrote:
| I have many family members in the trades. "The trades" is
| not a homogenous group of jobs. Some of them got lucky and
| got good union jobs. Most of them work hard jobs that are
| hard on their bodies. They have an income that's enough to
| live on, but money is always tight. I know very few
| tradesmen in their 50s and 60s who would tell their
| children to follow their career path, other than the
| relative few who have managed to work their way up so that
| they are managing tradesmen, not working as a tradesman.
|
| If you have a very specific career in mind then sure go for
| it, but just telling people to "go into the trades" is
| probably harmful.
| [deleted]
| paulpauper wrote:
| The average debt for recent college grads is around $30-40k,
| quarter-million figures are outliers . Doctors may accumulate
| hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, but they easily
| make up for it in income.
| JohnTHaller wrote:
| About 7% (3.2 million) of federal student loan borrowers
| have over $100,000 in debt. Many of these are likely law
| (avg $145,500), pharmacy ($179,514), veterinary ($183,302),
| medical ($201,490), and dental ($292,169).
| paulpauper wrote:
| right, and those jobs also tend to pay the most
| BeetleB wrote:
| Law is very bimodal. The median engineer likely makes
| more than the median lawyer.
|
| Pharmacy: If you get a doctorate and work in a hospital
| (e.g. in ER), you'll get good pay. The average pharmacist
| in the pharmacy: Not as much in the future. And there's
| been a lot of wage pressure due to:
|
| 1. Amount pharmacies have to pay to obtain the drugs
| (i.e. what drug manufacturers charge).
|
| 2. Amount insurers will pay for medicine. These are
| contractual. So if you have insurance and go in, there's
| an upper bar on what the pharmacy can get from you.
|
| The profit a pharmacy makes is between these two numbers,
| and that margin has shrunk a lot in the last decade. The
| upshot? Pharmacies are cutting staff, and cutting hours.
| In my state, there are towns with no pharmacies at all -
| they had to shut down as they were losing money.
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| They are not that different. I graduated from a no name
| school a few years ago and am doing fine.
| sosborn wrote:
| If he doesn't want to be in the trades, he should go to Texas
| Tech. The degree will serve him just as well as a degree from
| any other school, bar a handful of elite institutions.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| Texas Tech is a fantastic school. If he chooses to go there
| and majors in a STEM field, he'll have a bright future.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| I know some pretty good biotech start ups spun out from Texas
| Tech - I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand
| the_only_law wrote:
| I've been looking at going back to school for some years, and
| it's finally looking like I'll be able to begin the process
| this year.
|
| I can do the first two years of undergrad, through a community
| colleges while still working, and grad school can be figure out
| later if I decide on it, but I'm still concerned about how much
| I need to save for those last two years of undergrad.
|
| Tuition is one thing, while generally expensive, I'm in a state
| that's not too bad if you can get in-state tuition. It's still
| probably expensive, but nothing unmanageable (doesn't seem much
| worse than financing a new car). The main concern is living
| expenses.
|
| The financial aid system is a bureaucratic joke as far as I'm
| aware, and "estimated family contribution" seems like a
| delusion in the case of most people. I half-joked with some
| friends about living in a car for the last couple years, and
| one thought I was crazy, responding with an anecdote about how
| "you don't have to do that, I worked 3 jobs to pay for my
| education" which to me almost seems more miserable at this
| point.
| mywittyname wrote:
| > If we fix the college financial system, enrollment would
| likely skyrocket.
|
| Enrollment was at record numbers immediately preceding the
| pandemic, and this was a trend that held for several years
| prior as well. Lots of colleges had been expanding their
| campuses like crazy in the Before Times.
|
| I don't think the pandemic will result in a long-term shift
| away from this trend. By-and-large, college education remains
| is a worthwhile expenditure, despite the costs. You even agree,
| hence why you have _three kids_ in college!
|
| I can appreciate not going to college right now. Classes have
| been randomly cancelled, there have been lockdowns/classes
| going remote, professors aren't grading/lecturing at the levels
| they should be, students are doing the work, etc, etc. But once
| society reaches some level of normalcy again, I believe
| enrollment numbers will explode back to record levels.
|
| Plus, cost-conscious students have more options than ever. A
| lot of community colleges are starting to offer 4 year degrees.
| monkeynotes wrote:
| In addition there is COVID which means a lot of online learning
| and none of the college social experience. I know of a coop on
| my team is considering pausing finishing his degree because he
| hates online learning and does not feel like he's getting the
| education he paid for.
| taylodl wrote:
| What's the alternative? Wait for this to "blow over"? We've
| been waiting for two years now. Maybe omicron will be it. Or
| maybe not. We simply don't know. One thing we _do_ know from
| past experience is those opting-out of college or putting
| their degree on "pause" rarely return to complete their
| degree. You simply reach a point where you're focusing on
| your career, maybe start a family, and so forth and the next
| thing you know there's simply no time (or money) for college.
| monkeynotes wrote:
| I think for him pausing and perhaps just having a career is
| the best of a bad situation. His education doesn't work for
| him as is.
| nradov wrote:
| The better alternative is to immediately return all
| students and staff to full in-person education with no
| mandates or restrictions. Yes that will incur some small
| but acceptable level of additional risk.
| VampireWillow wrote:
| Your comment is the epitome of "some of you will die, but
| that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make".
| nradov wrote:
| Real life is full of risks. I despise this modern culture
| of safetyism and fragility. We should teach our youth to
| be stoic and resilient in the face of danger.
| SamoyedFurFluff wrote:
| I think the youth are plenty stoic and resilient. They
| have to be in response to increasing inequality, a
| shrinking middle class, climate change, and increased
| authoritarianism. They have never known a time without
| war and terrorism. School shootings are no longer
| newsworthy and they grew up drilling for a lone shooter.
| logicalmonster wrote:
| What human activity has 0 risk?
|
| For all of human history, there's been a chance that a
| child will die in a car-accident or be abducted by a
| child predator on his way to school every day. We haven't
| said that kids should stop going to school because of
| this, have we?
|
| There's a non-zero chance people will die traveling to
| and from work today. We haven't said that people should
| stop working to save lives, have we?
|
| I think that most people being bad at understanding risk-
| management is at the core of why there's there's such big
| divide with how to react to Covid.
| monkeynotes wrote:
| We have grown to depend on automobiles for modern life
| and the economy to function. People can function with
| kids in masks and home learning, just about. Their
| quality of life compared to my childhood/teen years is
| trash though. Additionally society cannot live with
| hospitals operating at reduced capacity because of COVID
| overflow. I mean, that alone is reason for managing the
| risk aggressively.
| logicalmonster wrote:
| > We have grown to depend on automobiles for modern life
| and the economy to function.
|
| So when it comes to cars, what you're saying is that
| "some of you will die, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing
| to make". Am I reading that correctly?
|
| PS: The above is obvious sarcasm. See how ridiculous bad
| risk-management calculations sound?
|
| > Additionally society cannot live with hospitals
| operating at reduced capacity because of COVID overflow.
|
| Color me skeptical about the severity of this risk for 2
| big reasons.
|
| 1) Look at actions, not words. Think about how governors
| and hospitals are acting. If there was a genuine fear of
| the hospitals collapsing, they'd be putting out daily
| public service announcements begging for retired doctors,
| people with any medical training whatsoever, or even
| random nuns to come and volunteer to tend to the sick and
| dying. Instead they're mass-firing healthy "health care
| heroes" who refuse to get a vaccine. Is that the act of
| people who are genuinely concerned about overwhelming the
| health care system?
|
| 2) This sensationalism has been happening every cold and
| flu season: see pic-related. Hospitals are designed to
| perpetually run at close to full capacity for financial
| reasons. https://i.imgur.com/50eqkXq.jpg
| [deleted]
| hackflip wrote:
| The 3rd calendar year into this this, I'm willing to make
| that sacrifice. Everyone who wants to be vaccinated is
| vaccinated. Young people will overwhelmingly be fine. The
| old should make sacrifices for the young, not the other
| way around.
| [deleted]
| asdff wrote:
| In state tuition at public schools has still been reasonable
| all this time
| learc83 wrote:
| >horrendously predatory loans backed by the government
|
| What's predatory about public loans. They all qualify for
| income based repayment, which means you'll never pay more than
| 10% of your disposable income (any income over 1.5x the federal
| poverty level). If you make below that amount, you'll never be
| required to pay back anything. And they are cancelled after 20
| years.
|
| Theoretically you'd owe tax on cancelled debt, but only up to
| the point of solvency. And a borrower who hasn't made enough
| income to pay back a student loan after 20 years probably isn't
| solvent, so won't pay anything. This also assumes that as more
| and more people reach this point, there isn't demand for
| congress to change the tax code.
|
| Public loans make up about 92% of all student loan debt as
| well, so the vast majority of loans are going to qualify.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| You also get credit for going into public service as well.
| ejb999 wrote:
| >>What's predatory about public loans.
|
| To some folks, having to pay off their loan, is considered
| predatory.
| Shared404 wrote:
| The predatory part is the pushing kids who don't understand
| finances into taking massive loans with high interest
| rates.
|
| I've passed on a traditional uni for this because I want to
| avoid debt, and still get "why don't you go to uni?"'d
| every so often by family and acquaintance's.
|
| And if the argument is "well, if you don't make enough to
| pay it, just don't!", as GP appears to be, I don't like
| spending other people's tax dollars dishonestly -
| especially not on textbook companies [0] and an expanding
| administrative staff.
|
| [0] Which bribe and cut-throat their way into forcing $100+
| payments per student per class per semester. Pirating or
| buying second hand doesn't even work half the time now -
| you need the "online access", aka DRM.
| learc83 wrote:
| >The predatory part is the pushing kids who don't
| understand finances into taking massive loans with high
| interest rates.
|
| There's literally lectures and a quiz you have to pass
| before you can take the loans that explains how repayment
| and interest rates work.
|
| For public loans the actual amount doesn't really matter
| because payment is income based. And the cap on lending
| is around $60k for 4 years, so I'd hardly use the word
| massive.
|
| >"why don't you go to uni?"'
|
| Of course all this only applies assuming you're American,
| which I'd guess your not since your friends call it uni.
| Shared404 wrote:
| > There's literally lectures and a quiz you have to pass
| before you can take the loans that explains how repayment
| and interest rates work.
|
| Yes, but they are told their whole life "after college,
| you'll make enough to pay it off easy, no problem!"
|
| > For public loans the actual amount doesn't really
| matter because payment is income based. And the cap on
| lending is around $60k for 4 years, so I'd hardly say
| it's predatory.
|
| 60k, with an extremely high interest is most definitely a
| problem.
|
| > Of course all this only applies assuming your American,
| which I'd guess your not since your friends call it uni.
|
| Nope, I live in Texas. Anecdotally, my group of friends
| all flip between "school name"/School/Uni in
| conversation. In this case, I picked uni because I'm on
| mobile and typing is hard.
| learc83 wrote:
| >Yes, but they are told their whole life "after college,
| you'll make enough to pay it off easy, no problem!"
|
| If anything, the predominant messaging today is the exact
| opposite of that. It also doesn't matter because public
| loans qualify for income based repayment, so it doesn't
| matter. If you end up stuck working at McDonalds for the
| rest of your life, you'll never pay back a dime.
|
| >60k, with an extremely high interest is most definitely
| a problem.
|
| Current undergrad rates are fixed at 3.73%.
|
| >Anecdotally, my group of friends all flip between
| "school name"/School/Uni in conversation.
|
| Interesting, (as an American myself) I've never heard an
| American use uni outside of conversation with Europeans.
| Shared404 wrote:
| > If anything, the predominant messaging today is the
| exact opposite of that. It also doesn't matter because
| public loans qualify for income based repayment, so it
| doesn't matter. If you end up stuck working at McDonalds
| for the rest of your life, you'll never pay back a dime.
|
| Unless you do get a job in your field, with enough income
| that you're supposed to pay it back, but can't. This
| probably will be less common with the current rates, but
| as recently as 2012 the interest rates were at 6.8% .
|
| > Current undergrad rates are fixed at 3.73%.
|
| Indeed. I was operating off of the rates from those who
| took loans in 2012 or before, the current rate is much
| more reasonable.
|
| > Interesting, (as an American myself) I've never heard
| an American use uni outside of conversation with
| Europeans.
|
| I probably picked it up from the internet and spread it
| to the group, I like saying less syllables :P
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > What's predatory about public loans.
|
| It distorts prices and results in a suboptimal allocation of
| society's resources, and results in people complaining about
| having a "degree" and having to sling coffee cups as their
| career.
| learc83 wrote:
| That's not what the word predatory generally means in the
| context of loans.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The predation is from voters today to taxpayers tomorrow.
|
| Politician A says they want to help students by paying
| for their education, or at least some of it. This
| requires cash flow, which results in more taxes, or at
| the least, entries into the government's debt figures.
| Either way it shows up on the balance sheet and can
| affect tax liabilities today.
|
| Politician B says they want to help students, but they
| will instead have the government lend money to them, with
| zero under writing other than the "school" needing to be
| credentialed by some entity. The cash is spent, but an
| even bigger asset in the form of the debt is recorded,
| actually improving the balance sheet. Then you can
| whittle down whatever taxpayer subsidy is being given to
| the schools as is, and they can make up for it with
| tuition increases. Either way, government finances look
| good, and taxes can even be reduced.
| learc83 wrote:
| Again "predatory lending" is a standard term, that has a
| commonly accepted meaning. What you're describing doesn't
| fit.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Yes, it is not the traditional use of the term. But for
| me, lending an 18 to 21 year old $200k +/- $50k to get a
| degree in literature from a non top school would qualify
| as predatory lending.
|
| The probability of that person digging themself out of
| that hole and being able to achieve the common
| expectations of a family, house, vacations, retirement,
| weekends, etc is pretty low.
| learc83 wrote:
| You can't get a public loan for $200k. Public loans max
| out at around $60k. The OP was talking about government
| backed loans being predatory.
|
| And someone with $60k in public loans most certainly can
| dig themselves out of that hole, because repayment is
| capped at 10% of disposable income, and it is cancelled
| after 20 years.
| [deleted]
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I was under the impression that private student loans
| were also guaranteed by the government, but based on my
| searches trying to source my information, it seems Obama
| administration changed this since I went to college.
| learc83 wrote:
| Here's what happened. Federal loans have existed for a
| long time. The Federal government would guarantee loans
| made by private organizations. However, these were always
| "Federal loans", the Federal government controlled the
| interest rate and the maximum amounts available.
|
| The government under the Obama administration changed
| things so that "Federal" loans instead of being made by
| private organizations and backed by the government, were
| directly distributed from the treasury.
|
| However even before this, there were separate Federal and
| private loans, and the only way to get to $200k (for
| undergrad) was to get unsubsidized private loans that
| weren't backed by the government.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Thanks, I did not know that. What is a subsidized private
| loan be unsubsidized private loan?
| [deleted]
| devwastaken wrote:
| Yes, this is the issue right on the head. At a $0 income,
| federal and state grants + student loans will not cover tuition
| and housing costs at the most affordable of in state
| universities.
|
| We can't just look at tuition, but housing costs. The cost of
| housing sometimes rivals tuition. A fun fact is they make
| freshmen have to buy $2200 meal plans for their first year.
| They also prevent freshmen from better housing where they can
| cook for themselves and save money through food stamps.
|
| Ontop of this part of those grants are work study, you have to
| work to receive that money. This is again even if you're dirt
| poor with nothing. You will have to take a second job if you
| need to buy personal items like deodorant.
|
| The vast majority of students don't fit into this, they come
| from middle class parents and have to take out private loans.
| Students have to pay on private loans, so, again, more and more
| work. I know students working 30 hours a week just to meet
| living costs and pay what they owe to the University so they
| are not barred from signing up for classes. These students are
| not learning what they should be, even though they are very
| bright hard workers it's wasted because we let universities
| charge these ridiculous amounts.
|
| It's not as if the unis are using it responsibly, either.
| They're not funding extracurriculars or programs students can
| learn more by being involved in. I recall one of our programs
| having to be funded by professors themselves to go anywhere.
| There are many different administrative workers that simply
| don't need to exist. The system has become lazy and
| inefficient. I recall in HS teachers spent hours grading. In
| uni - it's largely automatic. Yet we continue to have multiple
| teachers per subject and give professors just 1 or 2 classes.
|
| If we defund universities they will shape up quickly. Defund,
| regulate, start firing people.
| learc83 wrote:
| >The vast majority of students don't fit into this, they come
| from middle class parents and have to take out private loans.
|
| Private loans only make up about 8% of total student loan
| debt
|
| https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-
| loans/stude... https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-
| statistics
| devwastaken wrote:
| The bill infront of me isnt lying. The amount of student
| loans is not enough to cover the costs, therefore requiring
| private loans or someone else to pay it. So either all
| these parents are paying it, or they're taking out private
| loans. Or, more likely, the stats are collected poorly as
| they typically are. Same as how unis are allowed to lie
| about job placement rates.
| learc83 wrote:
| The fact that you are forced to take out private loans
| isn't evidence that the vast majority of students are.
|
| College tuitions and housing prices vary wildly, many
| students live with family, many students have merit based
| scholarships. Many states have copied Georgia and have
| lottery funded scholarships that covers the majority of
| in state tuition for students with a B average in high
| school.
|
| >Or, more likely, the stats are collected poorly as they
| typically are.
|
| The stats are widely available along with the data
| collection methodology. If you want to stick with your
| confirmation bias that's fine I suppose.
| devwastaken wrote:
| I've done enough work in data collection and stats to
| know that generalized statistics are almost always
| associated with false conclusions that avoid context of
| their data. An org will not advocate against itself
| willingly because it's workers like their jobs.
| Therefore, I trust the bill that _many_ students have.
| The evidence I have readily available concludes that
| scholarships are rare, student loans aren 't enough, and
| students have become cash cows.
| learc83 wrote:
| >I've done enough work in data collection and stats to
| know that generalized statistics are almost always
| associated with false conclusions that avoid context of
| their data.
|
| There's no context that changes this. Private loans make
| up less than 8% of all student debt. There are numerous
| sources available. This isn't in dispute by anyone
| (except maybe yourself).
|
| Given that fact, the only way your premise, that the vast
| majority of students take private loans, can be true is
| if most students take very very small private loans of
| less than a few thousand dollars.
|
| And even that is demonstrably false. Because we have data
| that clearly shows that the vast majority of students
| don't take private loans.
|
| https://research.collegeboard.org/pdf/trends-student-
| aid-201...
|
| >...that scholarships are rare...
|
| More than 75% of full time students receive at least 1
| scholarship or grant. Most of them aren't enough to cover
| the full tuition much less room and board, but they
| aren't rare.
|
| And in many states have large scholarship programs as
| I've mentioned where tens of thousands of students in the
| state get that scholarship.
|
| >The evidence I have readily available concludes...
|
| Confirmation bias is something to watch out for. There's
| no evidence outside of your personal experience to
| support the conclusion that "the vast majority of
| students take private loans."
| BingoAhoy wrote:
| I've always been curious about who's winning the lionshare of
| the pie of these gluttonous institutions. Is it
| administrators? they're an easy scape goat. Does it fund more
| research, so presumably the PHDs and their research
| assistants?
| A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote:
| They are an easy target, but I would argue justifiably so.
| My ( supposedly non-profit mind you ) university had a
| president, who paid himself a salary in line with regional
| bank's president; he was kicked out. Current one is paid
| less but still high 6 figures. And this is not some
| prestigious university, where you could reasonably argue he
| really, really deserves it, because he is running it so
| well.
|
| I don't know a full answer, but I believe we can start with
| administrators and work our way through the system.
| Something has got to give. This system cannot stay as it
| currently exists.
| rch wrote:
| It would also help to encourage and support people choosing to
| attend regional colleges for many fields of study, particularly
| given that educational content from state universities can
| easily be made available at the local level.
| hammock wrote:
| College was once to be reserved for the rich elite.
|
| But central bank and government policies starting in the 70's
| gutted US manufacturing and took away most of the non-
| information worker jobs - so there was little else for the
| middle class to go for a career except first to college.
|
| Hence today.
|
| However, today it's easier than ever to live off the nanny
| state WITHOUT a career.
|
| What should the role of college be today?
| matt_mb wrote:
| >However, today it's easier than ever to live off the nanny
| state WITHOUT a career.
|
| In what way?
| noasaservice wrote:
| Like the way corporations do, I guess?
|
| PPP was a boon - 'Here is a loan that converts to freebie
| money for millions of companies'. Where'd the money go?
| Buying Lambo's and the like.
|
| Or, when can _I_ get a tax abatement for 10 years?
| COmpanies can because of this mythical 'they create jobs'
| tripe.
|
| Just look up corporate welfare. And if I was permitted to,
| I would.
| hammock wrote:
| Welfare payments supplemented wages by about 8% in 1960.
|
| That figure has risen to about 36% today, a 3.5x increase.
|
| Chart: http://www.mygovcost.org/wp-
| content/uploads/2011/03/governme...
|
| Source: http://www.mygovcost.org/2011/03/14/the-u-s-as-
| welfare-state... (the first random example I found on
| Google)
| _moof wrote:
| This chart includes Social Security and Medicare. I don't
| think it makes sense to include retirees in a data set
| when making an argument about "welfare."
| hammock wrote:
| You don't have to be retired to receive Social Security
| or Medicare.
|
| Anyway, do you have some alternate data to consider?
| WoodenChair wrote:
| > Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year
| would be sustainable.
|
| It's worth noting that the vast majority of students don't pay
| the sticker price because financial aid is provided early and
| often (beyond just loans). Very few students are actually
| paying $50k.* [0]
|
| The average net price at a public college last year is $19,230
| and the average net price at a private college is $33,720. Note
| that this doesn't just include tuition, but also room and
| board. So if you're going to public college you're probably
| paying $20k to eat, sleep, and learn. Plus you generally get
| some kind of health insurance too.
|
| These averages can be significantly lower still for in-state
| public colleges and community colleges.
|
| No doubt the massive inflation in college prices is driven by
| the government loans, and the federal government's policy
| around them should be modified at best. But we should speak in
| reality instead of the hyperbolic articles that often just look
| at tuition which is what most people are familiar with.
| Colleges below the top tier compete on their "discount rate"
| which is what percentage of the sticker price does the average
| student actually pay because almost no students pay the sticker
| price.
|
| * "The average grant aid awarded per student was $8,100 at
| public colleges and $23,080 at private schools."
|
| 0: https://www.collegedata.com/resources/pay-your-way/whats-
| the...
| jeffalbertson wrote:
| in addition to cost, there is also a feeling I didn't get ANY
| value from the curriculum. Some majors are great but many give
| you 0 skills for the real world. I majored in communications
| cause I had no idea what I wanted to do in life. By the time I
| figured out I loved software, I had graduated.
|
| The best lessons I learned in college were off campus and
| developing my social skills (which is important).
| _fat_santa wrote:
| Thought it's not as glamorous as a 4 year college experience, I
| highly suggest going to a Community College for the first two
| years and then transferring to a state school.
|
| I did this and through I resented it at the time, I existed
| college with around $30k in student debt versus my friends that
| all has something in range of ($40k to $80k). IMO 30k in
| student debt is very manageable, currently have the thing paid
| down to like $12k and I like knowing I can reach into savings
| at any time and wipe out this debt if need be.
| vanilla_nut wrote:
| If you happen to live near a decent community college, this
| isn't a bad idea. But I know a lot of people who did 2 years
| at community college, and then got screwed over by transfer
| credits enough that they ended up doing 3 years at a normal
| college. So the savings isn't quite ideal. I actually went to
| community college instead of a senior year at high school,
| and think you should really inspect the quality of the
| programs at your community college before trying this. For
| instance, my community college only had a couple of token CS
| classes, and they basically taught C++ in a C-style (all
| declarations at the top of the file, no object orientation)
| as the only style of programming. Not a great way to get a
| head start on a CS degree. But the math, humanities, science,
| and social science programs could probably give you a very
| cheap head start on those degrees.
|
| For the truly frugal student, I would probably recommend
| something like what I did: take community college or AP
| classes aplenty in your senior year. Go straight to a college
| that has the best program for your interests (keeping in mind
| your interests may change). Graduating in three years is easy
| enough if you have a semester's worth of transfer credits for
| gen eds, and classes like calculus and linear algebra in
| particular are really easy to cover before you go to college.
| Administration will probably try to make graduating early as
| hard as possible, but they really won't be able to stop you
| if you have the credits already.
| balls187 wrote:
| > But I know a lot of people who did 2 years at community
| college, and then got screwed over by transfer credits
| enough that they ended up doing 3 years at a normal college
|
| This was the case for me, though I wouldn't classify as
| being "screwed."
|
| I attended a private tech school, and they were upfront
| they would not accept credits for any engineering program
| pre-reqs (Math, Chem, CS, Tech Comm, etc). However, they
| would accept "humanities" credits an apply them to any
| electives required for our chosen degree.
|
| Luckily, I had participated in our schools "running start"
| so I earned those credits while in high school, and my only
| intention of taking math at the time was to fulfill my
| highschool math requirements. I did also take 2-years of
| mandarin, which my school gladly accepted and counted
| towards my electives.
|
| All that being said, in Washington state, all publicly
| funded schools _must_ accept all credits from Community
| Colleges, AND guarantee admission, so if you are a student
| looking to attend a state school in Washington state,
| community college is a very attractive route.
| _moof wrote:
| A lot of community colleges have comprehensive transfer
| agreements with four-year schools in the same city and/or
| state. You can generally avoid getting screwed on transfers
| if you do a little research.
| wombat-man wrote:
| yeah, plus you have to knock out some random 100 level
| courses anyway. If you end up burning a semester of cc on
| some topics you end up hating it's a less expensive mistake.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| I did community college, got a guaranteed transfer agreement
| to UC Davis, but was admitted to UCLA and so went there
| instead.
|
| The quality of teaching at the community college often
| exceeded that at UCLA. Researchers are not necessarily the
| best teachers.
|
| In my department there were a number of community college
| transfer students. They were almost always the most
| ambitious, and ended up going the furthest. YMMV.
| _moof wrote:
| I had a similar experience. Much better teaching at the
| two-year school than at the four-year. One of my upper-
| level professors didn't even teach at all; he just threw us
| a book, said "read this," and then we didn't hear from him
| again until the end of the semester.
| ryathal wrote:
| If you can reach into savings and wipe out your student loan,
| you absolutely should before they start charging interest
| again.
| ejb999 wrote:
| >>IMO 30k in student debt is very manageable, currently have
| the thing paid down to like $12k and I like knowing I can
| reach into savings at any time and wipe out this debt if need
| be.
|
| Absolutely - $30K in debt is completely reasonable imo; if
| after 4 years in college you have not improved your job
| prospects enough to cover that payment, then you probably
| didn't work very hard, or didn't pick a marketable major.
|
| Most of these 'college debt is out of control' stories being
| pushed in the press, are usually focusing on outliers - i.e.
| people that borrowed $250K for multiple useless majors and
| now work at Starbucks because they chose badly. Public policy
| shouldn't be based on edge cases like this; not do we want to
| reward people for making bad decisions.
|
| Last I read, the _median_ college debt that people owe is
| less than $20K, and should be more than manageable for most
| people.
|
| If we want to fix the college debt problem, focus on getting
| the college costs down - anything that tries to make it
| easier to pay for, without controlling the cost side of the
| equation, will almost certainly cause the cost to go up even
| faster then before.
| valeness wrote:
| Assuming 20k in debt is more than manageable for most
| people really says more about you than it does others who
| can't pay that back.
|
| The OP said he could just "reach into savings" and whip out
| 12k. That is an INCREDIBLY privileged position to be in and
| I would urge you both to re-evaluate your perspective.
|
| People taking care of their sick mother, or paying for
| expensive medication for chronic illnesses, or living in a
| poor job market area, or have poor credit due to
| narcissistic parents taking out loans in their name,
| battling mental illness, or are paying child support, etc;
| are not "edge cases". They make up a considerable number of
| people who are struggling with the compounded failures of
| the system layered over of them.
|
| It was Margaret Mead who said something to the effect that
| "The earliest sign of true civilization, was that of a
| healed femur." This was said because a femur is not
| something that can be healed without assistance from
| someone else to bandage you, care for you, and fetch food
| for you.
|
| What is the point of civilized society and public policy if
| not to ensure that "edge cases" are treated as equitably as
| the general public? Why do you not have the same mentality
| when somebody breaks a leg? Why should society care for the
| outcomes of poor decision making: for example, such as
| playing contact sports, that results in a broken leg?
|
| Also please quit spewing the nonsense of "didn't choose a
| marketable major". I see this a lot with STEM grads,
| shitting on the arts, and then turning around and watching
| DUNE on HBOMax. Everybody enjoys the work of "non-
| marketable" majors, but nobody wants to pay for it.
| ericd wrote:
| People are obviously willing to pay some price for the
| arts, but perhaps not enough to support all the people
| who want to work in them at a very high standard of
| living. It's generally not been a very well compensated
| field throughout history for a reason.
| Goronmon wrote:
| _Most of these 'college debt is out of control' stories
| being pushed in the press, are usually focusing on outliers
| - i.e. people that borrowed $250K for multiple useless
| majors and now work at Starbucks because they chose badly.
| Public policy shouldn't be based on edge cases like this;
| not do we want to reward people for making bad decisions._
|
| That's quite the story you've created for yourself. I'm
| sure it makes it easy to dismiss the issue out of hand.
| ejb999 wrote:
| Not a story at all - check for yourself what the median
| student debt is - people who owe $250K are outliers, not
| the average college graduate.
|
| Pushing these $250K horror stories, is self serving to
| people who want all loans forgiven - even for those
| people who owe much less, and who can easily afford to
| make payments; of course people who owe money, would
| prefer to get let off the hook, who wouldn't.
| standardUser wrote:
| Public schools average about $10k per year for in-state
| students. That's a far cry from the $25k-$50k per year people
| tend to quote when arguing against the cost of college. How
| important that difference is depends on which state a student
| lives in. In California there are literally dozens of options
| including several prestigious ones, whereas many states only
| have a couple of middling schools to choose from, and out-of-
| state public tuition averages around $25k/year.
| Goronmon wrote:
| _Public schools average about $10k per year for in-state
| students._
|
| That seems low to me. Are you only counting the cost of
| tuition (and not books, room and board, etc)?
|
| I just grabbed some numbers for NH, one site says the average
| for tuition alone is $10k, with another $1.5k for books/etc,
| and another $15k for room/board. So, unless you are able to
| commute from your parents, looking at closer to 25k+ in
| loans, per year.
|
| I also checked UNH specifically, where the numbers are
| roughly $20k for tuition/fees and $33k all in.
| xhkkffbf wrote:
| You're thinking of 20 years ago.
|
| Most state schools are easily $20k for in state students once
| you add in the room and board. Then they try to get $50k from
| the out-of-staters. Top flight state schools like Michigan,
| Cal Berkeley and Cornell start at $75k+ for out-of-staters.
| Of course financial aid does enter the picture for many
| students.
| [deleted]
| standardUser wrote:
| No, I am not thinking of twenty years ago, I accurately
| stated the cost of _tuition_ today, which generally does
| not include renting a place to live, on-campus or
| otherwise, or a meal plan.
| Goronmon wrote:
| Having a place to live and food to eat seems to me to be
| pretty important part of your education.
| kapp_in_life wrote:
| But is explicitly not tuition. If you weren't in school
| you would still need to eat and live somewhere.
| Goronmon wrote:
| But its still a cost you have to pay for somehow, and
| since you are, hopefully, going to classes, studying, and
| doing homework, you are largely preventing from having a
| job lucrative enough to pay for those things completely.
| ljhsiung wrote:
| You didn't say "cost of tuition" in your original
| comment.
|
| Further, I think it's disingenuous to only consider
| tuition. Cost of living in e.g. Berkeley is ridiculous,
| literally more than tuition. [1]
|
| (I understand that living is not something Berkeley can
| fix, but it's very much their problem and a concern on
| students' minds, regardless of whose "fault" it is)
|
| To only consider tuition is a cost-shifting marketing
| tactic that these schools use so you don't focus on the
| bottom line. Their goal is to get you to attend. Period.
|
| Let's look at a less prestigious school-- UCSB tuition is
| about 12k, but total cost might be 24k (official estimate
| says 32k [2], but I have the random fees they have to not
| be applicable, e.g. "campus fees" or "books")
|
| [1] https://admissions.berkeley.edu/cost
|
| [2] https://www.finaid.ucsb.edu/cost-of-attendance
| [deleted]
| iskander wrote:
| I went to UIUC and paid ~$6k / year in-state (not
| including living costs). That has now increased
| dramatically to ~$20k/year. And, obviously, you still
| have to pay for living costs while you're a student and
| the part-time jobs typically available to you don't pay
| very much.
| NobodyNada wrote:
| > Public schools average about $10k per year for in-state
| students.
|
| Where is that? At my school (Oregon State University) in-
| state tuition is $13k, and room & board is an additional $13k
| (which is way overpriced -- more than double what you'd pay
| in rent & groceries living off-campus, but all first-year
| students are required to live in the dorms). And out-of-state
| tuition is triple the in-state rate. So that $25k-50k
| estimate is exactly on-point here.
| simplestats wrote:
| Depends how you look at it. If you're from a poor state, you
| can get into a solid flagship school (including medical
| school) even if you could never get in to places with single-
| digit admissions (like the top tier ofCalifornia schools).
| Whereas people who would be able get into the high-ranked
| California Universities can probably get full scholarships to
| solid out-of-state private schools too.
| bagacrap wrote:
| The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to continue
| jacking up the prices. As with homes, people will pay as much
| as institutions are willing to loan them. In both cases the
| currently low interest rates allow the loan principal to be
| much higher (given that folks calculate cost based on recurring
| payments). If you remove the student loan system then tuition
| would become cheaper. However that does unfairly impact those
| from economically disadvantaged households.
|
| Also, in-state tuition for state schools is much less than
| $50k/yr so try going to Cal and/or your best local public
| school and supplement with self teaching (e.g. via public/free
| lectures from MIT)? The self directed learning/motivation is
| the hard part for many people of that age, but few have said
| living frugally should or would be easy.
| ashtonkem wrote:
| > given that folks calculate cost based on recurring payments
|
| That's very true for mortgages, but in my experience this
| isn't how student loans work. Nobody I knew before college
| had any idea what their loans would cost on a monthly basis
| once they went into repayment, and I don't think it was
| disclosed to me (or I forgot).
|
| Also unlike my mortgage, my loans have trivially changed
| repayment plans. I changed some of them several times based
| on my economic circumstances without refinancing, which makes
| nailing down a single payment kind of hard, even if the
| interest rate hasn't changed.
| joconde wrote:
| > Also, in-state tuition for state schools is much less than
| $50k/yr so try going to Cal and/or your best local public
| school and supplement with self teaching (e.g. via
| public/free lectures from MIT)?
|
| Unrelated question: does "Cal" mean Berkeley here? Do you
| really need to "supplement it with self-teaching"? I don't
| really understand why state schools are viewed that way,
| since Berkeley consistently ranks world top-10.
| aerostable_slug wrote:
| Yes, "Cal" means UC Berkeley, the first University of
| California.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| I wonder what would happen if banks could deny student loans.
| Students would need to prove that they are a good investment
| but it also means that colleges would have to prove they are
| good investments as well.
| VampireWillow wrote:
| Here in Canada the government simply dictates to universities
| how much they can charge. It seems beyond insane to me to do
| it any other way, seeing as our entire societies are
| dependent on getting enough people educated to perpetuate a
| service economy.
|
| To be fair, this kind of means that universities should be
| completely public. And although they are for all intents and
| purposes, in theory they are still non-governmental entities.
| And that's strange as well.
| chasd00 wrote:
| with federally backed student loans the US government has
| told universities here they can charge as much as they
| want.
| mywittyname wrote:
| The department of education in the USA kind of does that
| too. The amount of government-backed loans a student can
| receive for undergrad is capped at ~$35,000 (it's unlimited
| for graduate school). It's also graduated, so a freshman
| can only receive ~$4,000 their first year, and it goes up
| from there. Grants are given to freshman to cover the
| shortfall. Also, students/parents are expected to
| contribute, based on household income.
|
| Most public state schools keep their pricing in line with
| these caps ($35k in loans + ~$5k in grants). I just picked
| on Iowa because, and here's a list I found:
|
| https://www.universityreview.org/iowa-colleges/
|
| You'll notice that in-state tuition for all public state
| schools is around $8k a year. Here's the same for
| Tennessee:
|
| https://www.universityreview.org/tennessee-colleges/
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| > The amount of government-backed loans a student can
| receive for undergrad is capped at ~$35,000 (it's
| unlimited for graduate school). It's also graduated, so a
| freshman can only receive ~$4,000 their first year, and
| it goes up from there.
|
| I believe this only applies to the subsidized federal
| student loans that don't collect interest while you're in
| school. The limit on unsubsidized federal loans that
| start collecting interest right away is much higher.
|
| When I started college in 2009, I got $9,000 in federal
| student loans for my freshman year.
| mywittyname wrote:
| https://studentaid.gov/understand-
| aid/types/loans/subsidized...
|
| Perhaps you were classified as a independent student?
| lumost wrote:
| Would it really penalize disadvantaged households? I'd
| imagine that many such students lack a co-signer for these
| predatory loans, or would be further disadvantaged by a 200k
| degree that doesn't meaningfully change their economic
| outcomes in 2022. To make college work you need to pick a
| dwindling number of high leverage disciplines such as CS,
| even picking something technical like Chemistry won't yield a
| return on a 200k degree.
| yxwvut wrote:
| I think the only tenable solutions are 1) a ceiling on the
| loan amount tethered to public college costs to increase
| price elasticity and prevent runaway costs, along with a
| quota on loans to address the 'future ability to repay'
| issue with many majors/low caliber schools 2) free public
| college (or equivalent private college voucher)
|
| Giving out loans with no cap on how much schools can charge
| and with no ability-to-repay check is a recipe for
| catastrophe.
|
| I think option 2 is the best equitable outcome but is
| probably politically unsavory given the heterogeneity in
| public school costs/quality across states (which typically
| aligns with political divides).
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Option 2 is the only tenable solution. Option 1 is just
| more of the same we have now.
|
| Either society puts their money where their mouth is and
| actually pays for people to be educated, or they can
| choose to keep taxes lower and let people fend for
| themselves. Either of these options is fine, but the
| bullshit blank check taxpayer funded loans non
| dischargeable in bankruptcy is only good for politicians
| and taxpayers today at the expense of taxpayers and
| members of society tomorrow.
| lumost wrote:
| The pertinent question of where the money goes needs an
| answer. Afaict universities are simply spending money on
| more things because they can or taking on debt to drive
| prestige projects.
|
| We know college can be cheaper, Brigham young goes for
| 5k/yr, European and Canadian schools still charge less
| than 10k/yr.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The answer would be investigated and evident if proper
| underwriting had to be done and there was not an
| unlimited guarantee from future taxpayers to make good on
| the debt.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Brigham and Women's will be delighted to know they
| acquired a university. Didn't know they turned Mormon
| though.
| lumost wrote:
| Oof updated, should be Brigham young
| ryan93 wrote:
| What do you mean educated. Like 80% of degrees are
| useless. My Econ degree is a primary example of useless
| degrees.
| namelessoracle wrote:
| From what i hear you need at least a Masters degree in
| Chemistry to get lab assistant style jobs at entry level
| now :(
|
| And no, they do NOT make good money.
| VikingCoder wrote:
| Here's what I don't get -
|
| Where the hell is the money _going_?
|
| Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money? Are they
| publicly traded and distributing dividends? Are they building
| rockets?
|
| I know some of it goes back to financial aid, and some goes
| to football coaches...
|
| But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I just
| can't visualize where it's going.
| seibelj wrote:
| On a related note - who in their right mind thinks donating
| to their college is a good decision? I don't understand why
| rich people keep donating buildings rather than donating
| parks to their communities. When I begin to donate money
| for serious, colleges are getting exactly $0. The money
| will go to places and people that actually need it.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| When you have an organisation full of people creating
| worth that you can cream off, you've bought a few houses,
| yacht, fast cars. You get to a point where you realise
| you're not leaving anything of value behind and think "if
| I pay for a university building then I've created a
| legacy of education for generations to come".
|
| TL;DR it's like a shiny name plaque for billionaires.
| seibelj wrote:
| I get it - and I agree with the reasoning - but I want to
| leave a shiny new park with my name on the plaque, not a
| building in an overpriced university.
| zeppelin101 wrote:
| A lot of it is going to the administrative staff. They have
| massive departments, many buildings, and many unnecessary
| staff members with high salaries. Meanwhile, a lot of the
| teaching faculty is making a pittance.
| simplestats wrote:
| Buildings are traditionally paid for by a benefactor who
| gets their name on it. And the school often ends up with
| higher costs as a result (and one less parking lot or
| green area). Such donors are kind of a mixed bag.
| DebtDeflation wrote:
| It's going to the facilities and the staff needed to
| support them.
|
| When I was an undergrad in the mid 1990s, the dorms were
| square rooms with cinderblock walls, concrete floors, metal
| frame beds, and a simple desk, the cafeteria was like an
| oversized high school cafeteria, and the gym was a basic
| weight room. A couple of years ago I received a brochure
| from my alma mater asking for donations and showing the
| modernized campus - the dorms were now luxury apartments,
| the cafeteria was a gourmet eatery, and the gym looked like
| a Lifetime.
| honkycat wrote:
| Endowments. They are lining their pockets with it. A lot of
| Unis are becoming investment firms that happen to
| supplement their income with a school attached to them.
|
| Sports team boondoggles are a popular way to spend tuition
| money.
|
| Administrative salary and staffing bloat.
| giaour wrote:
| Some percentage of tuition dollars are effectively cross
| subsidizing other students (e.g., masters candidates
| subsidize PhD students, wealthier undergraduates subsidize
| other undergraduates receiving institutional grants or
| discounts, etc.), but the biggest factor in private
| education has to be the increase in administrative staff
| and facilities.
|
| The one place is almost certainly not going its faculty
| salaries. The industry's shift to adjuncts has been great
| for university endowments but terrible for those who got
| their PhD in the last couple decades
| _jal wrote:
| Salary of full-time faculty at American colleges and
| universities:
|
| 1970-71: $81,798
|
| 2018-19: $88,703
|
| Mean salary of American college and university presidents
| in 1983: $160,640 (2018 dollars).
|
| Median compensation of private college and university
| presidents in 2018: $668,000.
|
| Median compensation of public college and university
| presidents in 2019: $495,808
|
| More, and primary source links:
|
| https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/03/university-
| admi...
| arrosenberg wrote:
| Now add the Athletics programs to that and you have a
| pretty good idea of the issue.
| sosuke wrote:
| nvm
| _jal wrote:
| The post declares near the top:
|
| "ALL FIGURES ARE INFLATION-ADJUSTED INTO CONSTANT 2018 OR
| 2019 DOLLARS."
| sosuke wrote:
| Yup, I didn't look at your source only what information
| you posted. The "(2018 dollars)" on only one line implied
| to me the other numbers were unadjusted.
| [deleted]
| samsolomon wrote:
| FWIW, major college football programs are usually net
| positive for the school. In some cases they subsidize the
| other athletic programs.
|
| https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/Ranking-college-
| footba...
|
| As far as where it goes, I think a ton goes into new
| buildings and amenities. I went to Auburn a decade ago and
| the campus looks completely different. Everything is new
| and shiny. I assume there are also a ton of administrators.
| paulpauper wrote:
| A college charging $50k/year does not mean it actually gets
| $50k/year from said student. The amount paid is often much
| less than the sticker price.
| Z0rr0 wrote:
| lthornberry wrote:
| Two biggest drivers are 1) massive declines in public
| support (for public universities, obviously) and 2) more
| administrators.
|
| Much of the growth in administration is driven by a
| significant rise in the costs to comply with federal
| regulation. Those regulations are not bad--it's the cost of
| complying with things like disability laws, Title IX, etc--
| but they require collecting and reporting significant
| amounts of data, and that isn't free.
|
| There's other stuff too; some colleges do have the lazy
| rivers and fancy dorms, many colleges lose money on their
| football program, etc. But those aren't the fundamental
| drivers.
|
| By the way, in case anyone is wondering, the money is
| definitely NOT going to faculty salaries. Salaries for
| full-time faculty have been stagnant for decades even
| though an increasing percentage of classes are taught by
| poorly-paid adjuncts.
| ativzzz wrote:
| > Much of the growth in administration is driven by a
| significant rise in the costs to comply with federal
| regulation. Those regulations are not bad
|
| Similar things happen in healthcare. My SO works in
| pharma and the amount of red tape they are required to
| navigate significantly increases the complexity of their
| administrative work and decreases the cost-efficiency of
| their business, partially passing on the costs to the
| price of drugs.
|
| Again, like you said, the regulations are not bad (like
| regulating the types of communication they can have with
| doctors), but there is a price to pay to keep them.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Also, prices aren't visible before hand, so it is more
| difficult for price competition to work.
|
| Also, medical profession trade unions/cartels (aka AMA)
| constricting the labor market for medical work.
|
| These things probably could actually be resolved by
| governmental regulation.
| ativzzz wrote:
| > These things probably could actually be resolved by
| governmental regulation.
|
| They could, but I wonder if it would actually improve the
| state of things. We would then need to increase the size
| of the bureaucracy (in the government and in each
| institution that does any of these things) to meet these
| regulations, and given that a bureaucracy becomes less
| efficient with size it may not actually make things any
| cheaper.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| No, I think public prices would definitely make things
| cheaper. It would also incentivize keeping bureaucracy
| lean, there is little to no price incentive to do so now.
| rdtsc wrote:
| > Are Colleges and Universities pocketing the money?
|
| They are. Why wouldn't they? Kids and parents can get
| massive loans from the government, it would be silly for
| universities and all their admin staff to pass up the
| opportunity to enrich themselves.
|
| Universities have started to compete on which ones have
| more gyms, clubs, luxury dorms, various interest groups.
| Well, the basket weaving club needs an instructor, a
| secretary, a janitor, a new facility, a maintenance person
| for it etc. Some of them may be friends and cousins of the
| existing administrators, but you're not supposed to notice
| that too much.
|
| I couldn't stop laughing when I visited my alma mater, a
| decade later and seeing how they had build a brand new gym
| with a huge lazy river around it. In my head I could hear
| the enthusiastic tour guide "Your child can type their
| homework while floating around in a lazy river, isn't that
| great!". But then, of course, I realized that it was my
| tuition that has paid for the lazy river.
| [deleted]
| roody15 wrote:
| It is indeed interesting. Most major universities look to
| maximize adjunct faculty and honestly new professors make
| much less than you think.
|
| My point is I don't think the money is going to university
| teaching staff at least...
| ejb999 wrote:
| Can't speak of all schools, but at my local state school
| (which I attended) - which as far as sports teams is way
| down on the list of being considered important (i.e.
| you'll never see them on TV), they constantly bringing in
| coaches making $1M/year, who then hire a bunch of
| assistant coaches making $200K a year etc - and then when
| the teams don't do well - like losing 80% of their games
| - they fire the coaches (paying out the rest of their
| contracts) and hire the next million dollar coaches,
| rinse and repeat - and this is at a state-run school; I
| would imagine at private schools with top tier teams, its
| even worse.
|
| There is so many overspending problems its not even funny
| - and yet the people actually teaching the classes are
| TA's, probably getting $20K/year, while the professors
| work on their 'research' and are rarely available to
| students.
|
| Starting to think the whole higher-education model is
| hopelessly broken.
| nyolfen wrote:
| this is a conscious calculation to attract alumni
| donations -- people who are into their college teams
| donate more than others, and even more when the teams do
| well
| ryathal wrote:
| Sports are generally separate from the rest of the
| university budget. It's not tuition dollars that are
| paying the coach, it's season tickets, TV contracts, and
| donors. Men's football/basketball makes obscene money for
| the big schools, and the little schools get paid to be
| beat up by the big schools. The reports that sports don't
| make money are like how movies don't make money, it's
| largely creative accounting not actual losses.
| larkost wrote:
| Hollywood accounting only works because the producers are
| taking the profits out by spending the money on outside
| firms that they get a piece of. That does not work in
| college sports: they are just plain losing money...
| except for the coaches and he staff who are making it
| hand over foot (even on the small schools with horrible
| records).
|
| The vast majority of college sports programs in the U.S.
| are losing a lot of money for the school. They are
| operating at a detriment to the school's main goal of
| learning.
| ryathal wrote:
| They "lose" money because they offer more than men's
| basketball and football. Those two sports finance
| everything else, it's easy to document millions in losses
| for swimming, soccer, track, field, baseball, softball,
| tennis, golf, and everything else.
|
| Also a Universities goal of learning is research, not
| teaching, especially not undergrad teaching.
| AlanSE wrote:
| This has always seemed like a weird defense of college
| sports to me, because college swimming, soccer, etc. are
| still an elite cadre of extremely physically fit young
| people.
|
| Maintaining physical health is huge, but the demographic
| that needs to be targeted is lower performance level that
| club sports. Even THOSE are quite competitive. Even the
| (very fit) people who participate often cease physical
| activity and healthy eating soon after graduation.
|
| On the other hand, subsidizing college gym facilities
| does tend to reach most of the student body. Required
| athletics classes is even more effective and pays long-
| term dividends (if they haven't been canceled due to
| COVID by now). But even more-so than that, consistent
| physical activity for grade school and high school would
| be even better from a whole society perspective.
| logicalmonster wrote:
| > But we're talking about so much freaking money, and I
| just can't visualize where it's going.
|
| I'd bet a lot of it comes down to how modern values are
| implemented.
|
| Being kind and embracing meritocracy should be completely
| free.
|
| But adding a department of "Diversity, Equity, and
| Inclusion" isn't.
| bargle0 wrote:
| Administration salaries and buildings. Just because that
| new building cost $200M, it doesn't mean the guy's name
| who's on it donated all of that.
|
| Where football coaches have very large salaries (EDIT:
| compared to peer schools), those salaries are paid by
| athletic department revenue and boosters.
| rdtwo wrote:
| The guy probably did donate all of that but keeping these
| buildings open running and maintained with university
| maintenance workers is expensive as heck
| jmrm wrote:
| Adding to all the other comments: Universities in the US
| are profit companies that pay taxes like if they were
| charity NGOs
| connorgreenwell wrote:
| Armies of administrators, shiny new amenities to attract
| more students (competing on quality of education is too
| difficult / more expensive). There's probably some good
| that it goes towards too, but its hard not to be cynical
| about it.
| vgeek wrote:
| I was a one of two developers at a small relatively
| unknown private college (costs over $70k and wasn't even
| top 5 in this state) in a communications (see: marketing
| B team for admissions, mostly PR and crisis response)
| department of around 15. I cannot emphasize how inept and
| slow everyone was. Simple tasks took 10x longer than they
| should. There were 3-4 people dedicated solely to
| managing contractors for the bi-annual magazine that
| likely gets tossed by 90% of the recipients, then people
| whose sole job was to manage an ad agency in a committee
| with at least 4 other people. They were in the 6 month
| process of launching a 5 page WP site for the newly
| funded careers institute that had ~15 employees to try
| and help graduates find jobs paying more than $15/hr with
| their newly minted liberal arts degrees when I finally
| left. Their solution for making soon/new graduates more
| employable? Linkedin courses for specific skills like
| digital marketing, Excel and microcertificates through
| external resources.
|
| Then there are other leaks, like $50k/yr hosting bills
| for a CMS serving under 200k pageviews per day, or other
| ancillary a11y compliance tools that cost nearly as much.
| If there is budget, it _has_ to be spent.
| FredPret wrote:
| In the past, people with sinecures could just go home and
| spend their time painting or composing poetry or
| inventing scientific disciplines or something else not-
| entirely-useless. Now they're managing contractors by
| committee! How soul-deadening.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| Pournelle's iron law of bureaucracy at play again.
|
| At this point, my feeling is that the local
| maximumizations that have driven us to this point are
| irrecoverable. There is no "fixing" this system. It will
| carry on for a while yet out of momentum, but something
| disruptive will dethrone it eventually.
| fnord77 wrote:
| there's been a proliferation of administrators in colleges.
| the ratio of administrators to professors/instructors has
| been steadily climbing since the 70s.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| I don't necessarily agree with SSC, but he dived a bit into
| this as 'cost disease' years ago:
| https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-
| cost...
| scarecrowbob wrote:
| The answer I get from my friends in the higher ed business
| are that the costs are covering decreased investment by
| state level government in colleges and universities.
|
| On one hand, I am not sure I agree. My son is going to the
| same state university I went to, and it's substantial more
| expensive, but they 've also built a ton of infrastructure
| that I find questionable.
|
| On the other hand, I don't really have data and when I look
| for it I find articles like
| https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-
| hig... :
|
| "Deep state cuts in funding for higher education over the
| last decade have contributed to rapid, significant tuition
| increases and pushed more of the costs of college to
| students, making it harder for them to enroll and
| graduate."
| xienze wrote:
| > The answer I get from my friends in the higher ed
| business are that the costs are covering decreased
| investment by state level government in colleges and
| universities.
|
| I'd take that with a big grain of salt. They love to play
| up this angle but I just don't see where funding has been
| cut at the same rate as tuition has increased.
|
| I remember back when I was in school, one year the state
| government asked for some belt-tightening, to the tune of
| a 2% budget cut. Y'know, asking the school to go back to
| the budget they had like two years prior. The admin
| started going nuclear, "there's no fat in our budget,
| these cuts will go straight to the bone!", saying they'd
| have to cut the entire music department, 10% of all class
| sections, etc. Even got the students riled up enough to
| march on the capitol building. Even at the time, being
| significantly less jaded than I am now, I knew this was
| complete BS. Ever since I've been very wary of this
| narrative that colleges are driving up tuition because of
| state budget cuts. And it didn't help shake my belief
| when I went back to campus a few years later and saw that
| they did a complete renovation of the library to include
| multiple gaming kiosks (!) and other such creature
| comforts.
|
| Simply put, the schools can basically charge whatever
| they want and students will pay because any 18 year old
| with a pulse will get approved for unlimited money so
| long as it goes toward college. Put limits on student
| loans and you'll see the situation change quickly.
| saltminer wrote:
| I feel like it's a bit of a Pandora's box. Once the
| student loan box got opened and administrators began to
| realize the incentives at play (for the lenders, e.g.
| most student loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy),
| they saw dollar signs. It's easy to justify tuition hikes
| when you know most of your students are already taking
| out loans which they'll basically always get. And since
| each student is usually only there for about four years,
| the increases while they're there don't seem significant
| because their frame of reference is so small. And even if
| they do realize the highway robbery taking place, what
| are they gonna do, transfer half their credits to
| somewhere cheaper and spend even more time in school to
| finish their degree?
| throwaway5752 wrote:
| That completely shifts the blame to bureaucracies, and that
| isn't fair. Loans are where they are because students prefer
| newer dorms, amenities, programs, and research opportunities.
| Student competition leads to prestige, leads to demand from
| employers for graduates from a specific institution. It is a
| self-reinforcing dynamic.
|
| The fact student loads have special bankruptcy treatment is
| bad. But absent Sallie Mae (or Navient, whatever it is now)
| students would be paying whatever Harvard or Stanford asked,
| and that would determine pricing for the next tier of
| schools.
| malfist wrote:
| It's a little rich to blame 18 year olds for college costs
| skyrocketing don't you think?
|
| Of course students prefer newer dorms, amenities, programs
| and research opportunities. But asking someone who might
| have been getting $5/week allowance to figure out how much
| a newer dorm is worth when the prices are in the 10s of
| thousands is an impossible task. They don't know how much
| money is worth.
|
| And then to tell them that they can't discharge it in
| bankrupcy because they knew what they were getting into is
| very much bullshit.
|
| And I don't say all this because I have student loans. I
| was very lucky, I went to a state college with a full
| tuition scholarship. But I've seen a lot of my peers
| struggle with student loans because teenagers don't
| understand fiscal policy, and shouldn't be expected too.
| throwaway5752 wrote:
| The demand for top tier education drives prices, just
| like the financing structure for loans for that education
| drives prices. Excluding one or the other is a false
| choice. Maybe if risk of default were factored into loans
| that would change the trajectory of the tuition cost
| curve. But taking away agency the consumers in the model
| doesn't lead us to the insights we need to actually fix
| the underlying problem.
|
| I have a vested interest in this problem. But saying
| popular things for upvotes isn't going to change the
| underlying problem of how to allocate scarce resources.
|
| I disagree with you on _" teenagers don't understand
| fiscal policy, and shouldn't be expected too."_. This
| isn't fiscal policy. This is a pretty straightforward
| introduction to being an adult and budgeting. I went
| through it, too. A mortagage was harder and more
| daunting. Rental terms on apartments were more predatory.
| The fact that people even discuss bankruptcy to discharge
| student loan debt is a horrible sign, given how much of
| ones' life potential one i throwing away to recover prime
| loan eligibility.
|
| Also, _" And then to tell them that they can't discharge
| it in bankrupcy because they knew what they were getting
| into is very much bullshit."_ - what part of where I
| wrote, _" The fact student loads have special bankruptcy
| treatment is bad"_ is unclear?
| joshgrib wrote:
| I'm not trying to make it black-and-white, there's
| certainly some degree of personal choice weighing in here
| - but it's not the core issue and it's probably a
| distraction. When we realized cigarettes were bad it was
| partially about informing people, but the main thing was
| to change marketing laws so you could make sure that
| wasn't undoing all the good info.
|
| If I give you two loan options with bad terms and you
| have to choose one, then that is a fiscal policy thing
| and your choice is ultimately pretty inconsequential. You
| may be slightly better off than the person who made the
| other choice but the bad policy is affecting both of you.
|
| Ultimately it's both a policy and a personal choice
| thing, but as with most society-wide issues the personal
| choice aspect falls away pretty quickly and we need to
| get realistic and figure out what a solution is instead
| of just blaming individuals.
| simplestats wrote:
| It's a simple economic argument. If students care only
| about quality, Universities will only care about it also.
| And improving quality leads to higher price.
| namelessoracle wrote:
| They care so much about dorms and the food programs that
| schools have to mandate that the student live on campus and
| pay for on campus food their first year!
| joshgrib wrote:
| This is an institutional problem and they should be blamed
| though.
|
| It doesn't really matter what students "prefer", if a bank
| doesn't do their due diligence and a student isn't able to
| repay their loan, then the bank should be losing that money
| as a bad investment. They won't give a $1M mortgage loan to
| buy a 50k lot, and likewise won't give it to someone that
| doesn't seem like they could pay it back. I do think
| there's value in people getting degrees that don't pay well
| - but then you shouldn't be getting a loan to do so.
|
| > students would be paying whatever Harvard or Stanford
| asked
|
| I don't think this is true - people simply can't go to a
| school they can't afford and people don't have infinite
| money. We gave the banks the freedom to tell children that
| they will indeed be able to pay back loans that they often
| cannot, so it's the bad actions of one organization(banks)
| enabling another(school). Ivy league schools may be like
| Veblen goods where increased prices also increase demand -
| but that can't be true for all schools and we've seen
| tuition increases across the board.
|
| The solution that seems best to me is to first fix the
| bankruptcy issue - if someone can't pay back a loan that is
| a risk the bank is accepting by giving the loan, just like
| any other loan. I think that alone would probably have
| enough of a chilling effect that way less people would be
| able to attend colleges at first and they would be forced
| to lower tuition rates. That would correct the market going
| forward, but it doesn't really help people that already
| fell victim to this system. That seems like it could be
| remedied by either making interest rates 0 or capping total
| interest to some amount relative to the principal (e.g. the
| total amount can never grow to more than 110% of the
| principal).
|
| Similar to healthcare, I don't think education shouldn't be
| profitable in the short term - it's a long term investment
| a society has to make in itself so you can't really track
| it as an individual investment in any one person. If
| someone else becomes a doctor I'm still benefitting from
| that so it makes sense that I'd pay into some of the cost
| to educate that person. Unfortunately in the US at least we
| seem to be totally unable to do anything without a short-
| term and concrete path to profit regardless of the amount
| of good it would do.
| sokoloff wrote:
| > won't give [a student loan] to someone that doesn't
| seem like they could pay it back
|
| I wonder what groups of people might be harmed by such a
| policy, but I would bet it won't be middle and upper
| class families who are willing to co-sign for loans.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Students don't usually get a choice of dorm, it's often a
| lottery program.
|
| Research is usually grant funded.
| throwaway5752 wrote:
| Students tour campuses and look at facilities, including
| dorms, and that factors into their decisions.
|
| Research may be funded. But research salaries are high as
| are facility costs and upkeep. There are numerous costs
| to support a top tier research program and maintain it
| that are not covered by grants.
| HWR_14 wrote:
| It's not just loans, it's COVID.
|
| If I were college-age and I were planning on going to college
| I would certainly do one of two things. I would postpone
| college until the COVID issues died down -or- I would use the
| fewer applicants to get into a more prestigious school
| banking on a better 3 year experience (out of 4) starting in
| the fall of 2022 and more impressive degree going forward.
| Either way, I can imagine admittance numbers falling off.
| ryanhuff wrote:
| Prestigious schools are seeing record numbers of
| applications, and record low in acceptance rates. If there
| is a hit in college attendance, its not happening at the
| top of the food chain.
| causalmodels wrote:
| True, but prestigious schools are playing games. For
| example, my alma mater is currently waiving the
| application fee for students _they know will not get in_
| simply so they can reject them. It is incredibly fucked
| up.
| merolish wrote:
| I do applicant interviews for my alma mater (MIT). The
| number of students applying has skyrocketed, and it sounds
| like it's the same for peer schools.
|
| https://thetech.com/2021/03/18/regular-admissions-2025
|
| Tuition has doubled since I went there, but at least they
| can afford good financial aid for those who can get in.
| wayoutthere wrote:
| Yeah I suspect people have wised up to the fact that the
| alumni base of a program matters more than pretty much
| anything else. So unless you're at a prestige program at
| a prestige school, college probably isn't going to pay
| off as well. Thus the piling in to elite universities
| while overall enrollment drops off.
| magicloop wrote:
| You've hit the nail on the head here.
|
| Education is primarily a prestige product. Secondarily,
| the social and alumni effects of the network around you
| when you attend. Thirdly, it is the college campus
| experience. Fourthly, it is what you actually learn.
|
| If you just price the value of each of these four pieces,
| the dynamic in the market is completely explained.
| Community college still provides learning, but not much
| on the other three factors. That is, it has become poor
| value for the fees it charges despite them being lower in
| absolute terms than prestige schools.
| wayoutthere wrote:
| The prestige is all that matters. It's really the only
| chance someone has to achieve class mobility; i.e. a kid
| from the working class might get into an Ivy League
| prestige program and rub elbows with the children of rich
| and powerful people, thus getting access to that network.
|
| But if you're going to a second-tier state university I
| really wonder if _any_ of those students are getting a
| positive payback.
| [deleted]
| DebtDeflation wrote:
| Tend to agree. I did my Masters degree (pre-Covid) as part
| of a predominantly online program at a large university. It
| worked out well, but I cannot even begin to imagine doing
| an undergraduate program remotely and missing out on the
| campus experience. There's much more to "going off to
| college" than taking classes, and I fully understand why
| 18-22 year olds would not want to shell out tens of
| thousands of dollars to miss the bulk of that experience.
| MikeTheRocker wrote:
| I'm currently about 2/3 through an online Master's
| degree: Georgia Tech OMSCS. Same as you?
|
| For me it's been a drastically different experience
| compared to my in-person undergrad. Whereas my Bachelor's
| degree was full of camaraderie and formative life
| experiences, my Master's has been more or less bereft of
| social or personal growth and focused entirely on course
| material. This is okay for me since my primary goal is to
| develop a deeper technical background, but I would not
| recommend such an experience for your average 18 year old
| kid who is about to start their first university
| experience.
| 0xdky wrote:
| I hope there will be student towns with mostly students
| taking online courses for the camaraderie and learning by
| helping out each other.
|
| Apart from the labs, I do not see a reason to go to
| college to learn.
| brendoelfrendo wrote:
| > I hope there will be student towns with mostly students
| taking online courses for the camaraderie and learning by
| helping out each other.
|
| You just described a campus.
| FredPret wrote:
| Agreed. About 50% of the value I got out of uni was
| outside the classroom. Though now I'm good to take online
| courses as I'm looking for skills, not personal
| transformation
| treis wrote:
| >. I would postpone college until the COVID issues died
| down
|
| What would you do instead?
| dgfitz wrote:
| Work. Save money.
| archy_ wrote:
| This makes a lot of sense. I took a couple online classes
| when I was in college, and despite my efforts, I definitely
| didn't learn as much as I would have otherwise. THere's
| something about someone telling you something in person
| that makes it easier for my brain to absorb, even if it's
| in a giant lecture hall and you don't go to office hours. I
| can recall accounting principles (taken in person) far
| better than material from my project management class
| (taken online). I took the former for an easy minor and
| never use what I learned, but the latter has proven much
| more important in my career, yet I managed to forget it
| all.
|
| And my online classes were explicitly taken online, with
| professors who had done online stuff before, not hastily
| moved online in the midst of a pandemic. Knowing how
| computer-averse some of my professors were, I can only
| imagine the transition to online was rough, and I bet I'd
| be scared away from online classes in college if I had to
| go through high school like that, even if I got a full
| ride.
|
| And, as others have said, going to college isn't just for
| the degree. Yes, that's a big part of it (the expensive
| piece of paper at the end), but just being able to be away
| from your parents really helps you grow up and become
| independent.
| AlanSE wrote:
| > And my online classes were explicitly taken online,
| with professors who had done online stuff before, not
| hastily moved online in the midst of a pandemic. Knowing
| how computer-averse some of my professors were, I can
| only imagine the transition to online was rough, and I
| bet I'd be scared away from online classes in college if
| I had to go through high school like that, even if I got
| a full ride.
|
| Universities are moving into a new space by taking so
| much online, and people will realize that some
| institutions are better at this than others. MOOCs can be
| done well, but it is largely not those traditional
| institutions that will be doing that.
|
| I'm very interested to see if some education disruptors
| come out of this time.
| zip1234 wrote:
| At least in a house loan they will check your income and job
| before giving you the loan. For college they will give anyone
| a loan for an immense amount of money without verifying
| anything.
| aerostable_slug wrote:
| The problem comes in when you try to verify someone's
| ability to repay the loan. It's not just one's choice in
| major -- for example, the graduation rate for Historically
| Black Colleges & Universities is only 35%. There are
| significant deltas between GPA, test scores, and college
| success rates between various ethnicities. Further, there
| are significant differences in the repayment of student
| loans between various ethnicities.
|
| I would not want to be on the team that does a risk
| assessment with these facts as inputs, because the results
| would be politically untenable.
| mdavis6890 wrote:
| Yes, exactly. One way to help college-age kids go to college
| if they want to without having the impact that you describe
| is to just give everybody ages 18-22 $20k per year in cash to
| do what they like with it. This still preserves their
| incentive to choose wisely, compare prices and consider
| alternate options.
| honkycat wrote:
| > The loans are exactly why the colleges were able to
| continue jacking up the prices.
|
| This is partly true. The US also DID use to subsidize more
| University tuition.
|
| However: Agreed. The loans are dumb. They feed into the issue
| in exactly the way you describe. They should be interest free
| as long as you are making regular payments.[1]
|
| > Also, in-state tuition for state schools is much less...
|
| This is so thorny... I have a younger cousin, and what he
| ended up doing was going to a community college for two
| years, then transferring. It worked out well for him! But it
| was a gamble.
|
| When I was in school my parents were very obsessed with me
| "having the college experience" even though we were much less
| well-off than they were in uni and were not able to support
| me financially[0]. I say this to point out: I am not
| advocating for this. College should not be fun! If it is:
| Great! Glad you had a good time. But that is not necessarily
| the reality you should expect.
|
| However: I have noticed a lot of people made a lot of friends
| in Uni, and those develop into professional relationships
| later in life.
|
| Additionally, if you are an ambitious person, going to
| community college has the risk of failing to prepare you for
| higher level university teaching.
|
| Finally: I am an extremely extroverted person. I found the
| community aspect of going to class, studying with friends,
| etc. extremely helpful in my motivation and understanding of
| the material. I've tried to do the MIT classes and such, but
| it rarely sticks.
|
| 0: Not their fault, not whining. Shit happens!
|
| EDIT:
|
| 1: AS A VERY MODERATE ACCOMMODATION. I'm not advocating for
| this policy as the end-all-be-all, but I feel like this is a
| very reasonable suggestion.
| namelessoracle wrote:
| The issue with student loans no one talks about is that the
| interest collected on them is already earmaked to help pay
| for Obamacare and Pell Grants.
|
| If you wonder why Democrats get so hesitant to do anything
| about the situation there is one of your reasons why.
| (there are alot more reasons but thats a decent reason)
| hourislate wrote:
| >Colleges assumed the trend of charging $25k to $50k per year
| would be sustainable.
|
| I understand that commuting to schools is not available to
| everyone but State schools are affordable. Entertaining the
| idea to go away for school either leads to higher costs or more
| debt. A 4 year degree from UT Dallas landed my oldest a 110k +
| first job in DFW. His entire degree cost approx 45-50k and that
| included gas, books, etc.
| jjulius wrote:
| Cost is the primary reason I dropped out of college, with not
| knowing what I wanted to do with my life being the secondary
| reason.
|
| It was about 15 years ago, I was 19. At the time, I was
| attending community college because I had no idea what I wanted
| to major in, or what I wanted to do with my life as far as
| careers go, but I had so much societal pressure telling me that
| I _had_ to go to college in order to be successful. I 'd tried
| steering myself towards a few subjects that were
| hobbies/passions of mine, but every time I dipped my toes into
| doing something with them professionally, I quickly became
| concerned about money/profit/work/bosses bastardizing my love
| for them and opted to keep them as hobbies/passions. 15 years
| later, I am still enamored by some of those same hobbies and am
| happy I kept them as such.
|
| While the "goal" was to transfer to a university from the
| community college, I consistently found myself thinking, "I'm
| seeing a ton of my friends, and people who graduated HS a few
| years before me, taking out these massive loans. Why am I going
| to go into debt if I don't even know what I want to do?". It
| just made no sense to me, so I stopped. I've been incredibly
| lucky that I found a career path in an area that I'm good at,
| and have risen to a level in my career that I'm happy with, but
| I absolutely did have to work really hard to get here.
|
| All that is to say, not only do I think we put _far_ too much
| pressure on people to know what they want to do when they 're
| still too young to truly have that figured out, but I also
| completely agree with you that cost is the primary concern
| here. If I didn't have to go into so much debt in order to have
| continued my college education, I have a feeling I would've
| opted to keep at it and figure out what I wanted to do along
| the way.
| shockeychap wrote:
| I remember reading a while back something like, "It used to be
| that you could mostly pay for college with a summer job. Today,
| the only summer job that could pay for college is being Elon
| Musk."
| paulpauper wrote:
| College cost less than a brand new car, yet does not lose a
| third of its value when you drive it off the lot, but rather
| gains value due to the wage premium and better job prospects
| overall. There is no crisis of car affordability yet people
| talk about college being unaffordable even though student loans
| are cheaper and have much better terms than car loans. Same for
| credit card debt. Also the price actually paid on tuition ,
| especially after accounting for generous aid and other
| programs, is much less than the sticker price.
| snambi wrote:
| Knowledge and education should be free of cost and barriers.
| Any society that thinks otherwise, will not be able to sustain
| and expand knowledge in the long run.
| vvG94KbDUtRa wrote:
| sAbakumoff wrote:
| why bother? you enroll to a college, you collect a huge debt that
| the government is not going to cancel - they prefer to give money
| to corporations instead. covid-19 disrupted in-person education
| and it's not gonna away any time soon. at the same time there are
| plenty of crypto startups that don't give a sh*t about education
| and could be pretty lukrative
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| the government will actually cancel your student debt
| eventually (25 years) if you're on an income-based repayment
| plan
| The_rationalist wrote:
| Nice trolling with the crypto retardness
| reaperducer wrote:
| I always chuckle when someone on HN inevitably rails against
| education in a post with bad spelling, grammar, and expletives.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| Expletives are a sign of creative intelligence.
|
| Bad spelling/grammar are mostly just due to modern technology
| where people communicate differently. Those things aren't as
| important as they once were. You'll see "highly educated"
| individuals making the same mistakes.
|
| Lastly, there's the possibility you're speaking with someone
| who is not a native English speaker. Obviously, with your
| high IQ you should have been able to consider that scenario
| though ;)
| qlm wrote:
| You think expletives are a sign of poor education? How dull.
| notreallyserio wrote:
| Yeah, when combined with the bad spelling and grammar.
| sAbakumoff wrote:
| Dude I am not a native English speaker and I don't give a
| flying fck about spelling and grammar and people
| complaining about it.
| [deleted]
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| Since statistics statements can look very misleading, I kneejerk-
| thought
|
| "it could be there are fewer people and thus students, due to
| population growth slowing or reversing, or it could be it's
| unaffordable or unpromising?".
|
| I hope it's from slowed population growth, but suppose it's the
| cost.
| henrikschroder wrote:
| How come none of the top comment threads talk about what a
| complete joke university education is currently due to ridiculous
| corona restrictions?
|
| Everyone is vaccinated, everyone is boosted, everyone wears their
| little masks, and they're still going remote, quarantining, and
| forbidding students from doing pretty much anything except sit in
| their dorms and watch remote teaching material.
|
| Is it any wonder that a lot of students walk away? Everything
| that makes college fun is forbidden. Why the hell would you put
| up with that? If I want to sit in my room, not party, and watch
| education videos all day, why would I pay $50k for the privilege?
|
| This is bullshit, and students aren't idiots, which is why a lot
| of them are dropping out and postponing their education until
| universities get their shit together.
| pacbard wrote:
| This is probably related to teenagers enrolling in college not
| only for an education but also for the amenities that come with
| college life (think of greek life, moving away from parents,
| college sports, freedom to explore your identity, etc.) The
| pandemic has put a stop on most of all non-academic stuff, making
| enrolling in college less appealing to this group of students.
|
| It will be interesting to see a follow-up analysis that parses
| out enrollment behavior by subgroup (e.g., by SAT/ACT score) as
| it will be easier to understand who is choosing not to enroll in
| college.
|
| Another follow-up could be to see which institutions are losing
| students. It is known that college enrollment is counter-cyclical
| to the economy and that enrollment declines at community colleges
| and open access universities when people can get a job right out
| of high school.
| stinkytaco wrote:
| Most of the amenities you speak of are not available at
| community colleges, which have seen the biggest decline. The
| pandemic definitely figures into this, but I don't think
| amenities can account for the large decline in certificate and
| vocational training this represents.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| Community college has also gotten really expensive. I was
| looking at the price for my alma matter, tuition has more
| than doubled since I graduated in 2010. The price has gone up
| faster than my university's tuition, making the community
| college less competitive. I wouldn't be surprised if
| economics also is contributing to declining community college
| enrollment.
| coolso wrote:
| Community College still absolutely offers a social experience
| even if it's just being in the same classroom as other
| people.
|
| And Zoom interactions are still terribly inferior to real
| life in-person ones regardless of what kind of college you go
| to.
| tinus_hn wrote:
| Did people really expect no consequences of asking students to
| pay full price to watch videos?
| strict9 wrote:
| This is a good thing. Too many people are entering college and
| taking on enormous debt to get something which is less of an edge
| for getting a job.
|
| Worse, many get saddled with debt and don't finish for various
| reasons.
|
| Meanwhile tuition and books keep skyrocketing as schools divert
| more of their attention away from academics and toward more
| profitable uses of institutional time and capital.
|
| But in a bit of good news, more jobs are ditching the degree
| requirement as workers as more scarce. I am glad the pandemic has
| opened the eyes of employers to realize that a degree is not the
| indicator it once was.
|
| Opinion: the self-taught are just as capable in the workforce and
| college degree requirements are gatekeeping.
| 9dev wrote:
| Sure they are gatekeeping, but that's the problem. The
| gatekeeping will continue, artificially limiting access to
| highly paid jobs to the upper class.
| chickenpotpie wrote:
| Strongly disagree, a less educated society is nothing to
| celebrate. This isn't a problem being solved, it's a country
| giving up.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| There aren't many mentions of international students, many of
| whom are struggling very hard to get visa appointments abroad. US
| Embassies are still barely functioning and are not able to
| provide even the minimum of services they did before covid, if
| they're even open to the public at all.
| parkingrift wrote:
| Most of the comments here are attributing this to costs, but that
| isn't clearly true (at all) from the article. This seems to be
| the result of a long term downward trend in enrollment which has
| rapidly accelerated during the pandemic. The fact that it has
| accelerated so rapidly during the pandemic is not likely due to
| costs, but due to other factors.
|
| The article itself posits that it is tangentially related to
| costs as kids are choosing to work rather than pay for school.
| However, that association feels pretty shaky and doesn't hold up
| to scrutiny as to why these changes accelerated so rapidly during
| the pandemic.
|
| I don't have a data-driven answer, either. However, my guess
| would be that students are uninterested in an online college
| experience and don't see the value in spending to attend a
| lucrative school so that they can then sit at home on their
| laptop. If I had to bet I would guess that enrollment ticks back
| once all these restrictions are abandoned.
| nostromo wrote:
| Most comments here are completely missing why this is happening
| now.
|
| Students don't want to pay tens of thousands of dollars for
| remote learning. They could watch Khan Academy videos instead for
| free, and they'd be better quality.
| starwind wrote:
| Bingo. If I graduated in the last two years, I would have gone
| to work at a grocery store while taking a couple core classes
| online while I waited for colleges to get back to normal
| saghm wrote:
| I was surprised how low this theory was in both the article and
| in this comment section! The article even opens with talking
| about the trend continuing fall 2020 (the first school year
| that began since the shutdowns hit the US), and yet it takes
| almost halfway down the article to mention "remote learning"
| and then another big chunk before the word "pandemic" is used
| (I didn't see "virus" or "COVID" either before then). I'm not
| saying all the other issues discussed in the article and
| elsewhere in this comment section aren't there, but given the
| timeline I feel like any convincing theory has to first address
| why that isn't the dominant factor.
| voz_ wrote:
| I know a lot of the comments here are from the lens of money
| input (as a cost, to pay for education) and output (as a return,
| on the investment, in the form of a job / career).
|
| However, I wanted to take a step back and offer a different
| perspective. College does more than teach one a trade. It should,
| ideally, help the student become a better citizen of their own
| culture, of the world, and of their community. College taught me
| deeper empathy, and different kinds of empathy, it taught me more
| about literature, history, cultures, anthropology. There is so
| much today that could be improved if, for example, philosophy was
| a core requirement of every CS curriculum.
|
| Outside of coursework, It taught me how to make friends, and how
| when I did bad things, I would lose friends. In a way, it is a
| continuation of high school except with the training wheels off,
| with all the consequences of adulthood to be tasted for the very
| first time.
|
| I know it is a privilege to say this, and it is why I am such a
| huge proponent of free education, but to miss college is to miss
| more than some academic study in a field. It is to miss a whole
| chapter of life. To go from high school to labor, without that
| sweet blissful blend of freedom, stress, and discovery feels like
| a life not fully lived.
|
| I would love for everyone to experience this, so from this
| personal perspective, I find that this framing (of money), on the
| whole, a rather negative thing.
| morelandjs wrote:
| I think most of us can agree that the bandaid fixes aren't work
| for young Americans. The system needs a significant overhaul,
| both financially and culturally.
| hungryforcodes wrote:
| Is it telling that there is no breakdown by gender? Men seem to
| have been abandoning education for a while now.
| CountDrewku wrote:
| Yeah I feel the current education system is set up to support
| women more.
|
| When gender doesn't exist then that breakdown no longer
| matters...
| mfer wrote:
| US colleges have many students from foreign countries on visas. I
| wonder what the impact of the pandemic is on that segment of the
| student population.
|
| This isn't likely to hit community colleges, which the article
| touches on. Just trying to point out that digging deeper might
| show some interesting details.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Certainly has to be a factor, but not many of them were headed
| to community college, which has seen the biggest drop.
| rkk3 wrote:
| > US colleges have many students from foreign countries on
| visas. I wonder what the impact of the pandemic is on that
| segment of the student population.
|
| The elephant in the room is that those _foreign students_ are
| also the ones paying sticker price and subsidizing college for
| the other students, even at public schools.
| [deleted]
| tuankiet65 wrote:
| From what I've seen , international students who are supposed
| to attend colleges in 2020 were affected the most:
|
| * Some abandoned their international studies plan and attended
| local colleges instead.
|
| * Some took a gap year to wait until 2021.
|
| * A minority pushed on and took classes online until they're
| able to come to the US.
| twox2 wrote:
| The cost is simply not worth the value, but some state/community
| schools are more affordable.
| tootahe45 wrote:
| "It's very frightening,"
|
| No, it isn't. A tight labor market which provides more
| opportunities for on-the-job training is positive for everybody
| except those who made their money selling fake tickets.
| falcor84 wrote:
| I just came here to complain about the grammar of "More than 1
| million fewer", it took me way too much wheel-spinning to parse.
| I would have gone with "Over 1M fewer" or even just "1M fewer" -
| we can handle the lack of precision.
| supperburg wrote:
| Americans are such colossal idiots. I can say it because I'm an
| American. They think, god what kind of evil and stupid person
| would EVER send their kid to private high school? It's stuck-up,
| snobby, and the education at the free public school is just as
| good! Oh but in college my children must have nothing but the
| best and make connections with lots of important people and if it
| costs us hundreds of thousands of dollars then it's worth every
| penny and anyone who doubts that is a fool. The disaster that our
| colleges are in is caused by this fear of missing out, the mental
| disease of the common idiot. If I had kids it would be the best
| private schools and tutoring up until college and I wouldn't pay
| a penny for college unless it was a physics major. If you truly
| educate your kids from 0 to 18 then they really don't need
| college.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| Cost and COVID hitting guaranteed in person learning is what I
| imagine. I remember thinking online learning was as waste in the
| mid-2000s. Has it improved?
| [deleted]
| honkycat wrote:
| Neoliberalism at its finest. Trim the fat until you cut into the
| bone. And we wonder why we have a staffing crisis in our medical
| field!
|
| This is BAD. NEWS. for us Americans. How are we supposed to
| compete on an international scale if we are not training the next
| generation of knowledge workers[0]?
|
| Part of the thing I always hated about Uni is that it felt
| very... kamikaze. You have one shot. I had to work during the day
| and go to school at night and going an extra year was NOT an
| option for me. It sucked to be on the hook for so much money when
| society didn't really make any room for me to actually learn and
| excel in that environment.
|
| I suppose you could join the military. However, the military
| isn't for everyone. I don't know if would have had the mental
| fortitude to make it. Also, you lose out on some extremely
| productive years.
|
| I know a lot of ex-soldiers who have severe disabilities, both
| mental and physical, from their time in training / on the field.
| Also, forcing everyone who wants to go into higher education into
| a propaganda mill isn't exactly a great idea either.
|
| Also, the military doesn't just give you a credit card to go to
| any school you want. I had friends in school who struggled with
| the gi-bill system.
|
| 0: A term I an loathe to use, because I do not think other work
| is "dumb work", but it is a useful short-hand for workers who are
| working in jobs that require advanced education.
| ravenstine wrote:
| Most of the college graduates I know ended up not using their
| degree because they majored in something no one cares about like
| communications, philosophy, journalism, etc. Maybe some people
| are figuring out that flipping burgers or literally just hanging
| out at home is a better use of their time from a financial
| standpoint than spending 4 or more years taking various
| prerequisites to get a degree that only results in more debt.
| Bell curves gonna bell curve, so it's not like all of these
| people are gonna have what it takes to instead become doctors,
| lawyers, and politicians.
|
| As far as I'm concerned, besides the fields that deal with the
| fate of a person's life (like doctors and lawyers), the whole
| idea of going to college and getting a masters in whatever your
| heart's desire deserves to be imploded. I see no sense in those
| saying that we need to "fix universities". Honestly, _fuck
| universities_ for acting they 're worth as much as they are while
| still pretending their priority is the students. Everything I
| learned in college and the different schools I went to can now be
| learned online or at the library _for free_ or for $29.99. In a
| few generations, universities will be naturally replaced with
| more practical alternatives. So why try to prop up these archaic
| institutions for the sake of the average person rather than the
| exceptional? Such a desire is more of a fetish for an image of
| what universities represent.
| reilly3000 wrote:
| >something no one cares about like communications, philosophy,
| journalism, etc.
|
| Excuse me? No one cares about fields that employ 2.8 million
| workers [BLS.gov 2020] ? No one cares about work that provides
| information, entertainment, and shapes political views? FYI
| your doctors, lawyers, and politician's biggest expense line
| items usually include money going to communications and media
| professionals.
|
| I and many others resonate with the notion of 'useless
| degrees', but you chose some terrible examples. That said,
| there is more value to education than vocation, and your
| inability to see that shows that you missed quite a bit in
| yours. The classical liberal arts education could and should be
| continually reimagined for a changing world, but to wholly
| discount its importance is capitalist orthodoxy that misses
| much of what life is about. Read a goddamn book.
| ravenstine wrote:
| > Read a goddamn book.
|
| > [...] to wholly discount its importance is capitalist
| orthodoxy
|
| Touched a nerve, eh? _You have no clue what books I 've read
| or how many._
|
| I didn't "wholly discount" the importance of so-named
| classical liberal arts. But there aren't many good reasons
| for putting one's self into debt to get a _degree_ in such
| things. Be honest, liberal arts isn 't heart surgery. Liberal
| arts can be learned _for free_ if it is the knowledge itself
| that is of highest importance. The cost of majoring in these
| areas of studies are hardly congruent with how well they
| prepare someone to become a part of the world outside of
| academia and the cost that they bear. Perhaps to certain
| individuals the cost still is justified by the end result
| they are aiming towards, but to assume that everyone going
| into the liberal arts is in college not because society is
| _cajoling_ them into it would be highly ignorant.
|
| You're mistaking my valuation of the _degree_ for a valuation
| of the subject mater itself. Are you familiar with the
| growing amount of student debt in the United States? Liberal
| arts are no exception, and there 's nothing I'm aware of
| about fields it encompasses that justifies the expense in
| both time and debt. It appears to be a racket.
| reilly3000 wrote:
| > Touched a nerve, eh? That you did heh... I am a pretty
| ardent advocate for journalism and the people who do it,
| paid or unpaid. I've also worked in digital advertising and
| communications, and even spent a semester as an adjunct
| teaching a mostly vocational course in the same, so I
| suppose the $1500 they paid me in 2014 makes me a semi-
| interested party. That said, I've also spent the
| intervening time with self-directed, mostly free education
| that has helped me transform into a developer with a
| Principal Engineer title and I'm all about embracing that
| form of learning as a general practice.
|
| The ROI for many degrees is abysmal. There's been some
| really great research on in this area, including my
| favorite report here:
| https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/7583742/
|
| The worst cases from that data approach -$1M ROI. Ouch.
| Those institutions deserve to be held to account, they are
| doing a disservice to their students and society for
| putting people into such economic peril. The term leach
| seems to apply. I'll even concede that prescribing
| classical liberal education for all is somewhat
| paternalistic, even overly anglo-centric. We can do better.
| Still, I think education is critical for democracy to be
| functional and as a society its worth investing in.
|
| We're generally on the same page as far as I can tell. But
| yes, I will become quite cranky if you call journalism
| useless :)
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| -1M for a religion degree from Talmudical Seminary of
| Bobov... where tuition after aid is $7,549.
|
| ...how do you even spend $1M on a religion degree that
| costs less than $10k/yr?!
|
| Surely this is just actual straight-up white-and-black
| fraud, or some sort of weird data entry error, right?
| Animats wrote:
| The product colleges sell is guaranteed entry to the middle
| class. Since they no longer can provide that, especially at the
| two year college level, their market is shrinking.
|
| What we need is a better life for the working class, not more
| college. Start by getting serious about wage and hour laws, and
| start throwing employers in jail.
| jsiaajdsdaa wrote:
| Even computer science education does not prep the median student
| for successfully passing interviews these days.
| Rd6n6 wrote:
| The news has also been about record numbers of people quitting,
| changing careers, and going to school. Something is being
| misreported
| WaitWaitWha wrote:
| I can see this being a problem for colleges & universities.
|
| Is this a problem for society?
| user249 wrote:
| I'm not sure why it's so surprising that college enrollment is
| down when 30% of the country thinks colleges teach cultural
| marxism and want to turn their daughters into lesbians and their
| boys into girls
| aquanext wrote:
| If I had it to do over again, I never would have taken out such
| big loans; instead I would have opted for the cheapest community
| college. But I was young and had never managed money before. I
| had no understanding of what I was signing up for. I actually
| went to a super overpriced art school ($30k/year) and realized
| about halfway through that I was never going to be able to pay it
| back. So I left and started working. That was probably the right
| decision because paying back $60k plus interest has been insane.
| I've spent all this time (15 years so far) paying back everything
| and still have $30k left (all interest!) and I can't imagine if I
| had to pay back $120k + interest. If I had stayed, by this point,
| I would have fled to a third-world country and changed my
| identity to avoid having to pay it back long ago - or killed
| myself.
|
| It is criminal what they have done to people. Absolutely
| criminal.
| jdkee wrote:
| What is also problematic is the gender imbalance on campuses
| which was further exacerbated by the pandemic.
|
| See https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/young-
| men-...
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