[HN Gopher] People behave more sadistically when they're bored
___________________________________________________________________
People behave more sadistically when they're bored
Author : DocFeind
Score : 134 points
Date : 2022-01-12 16:41 UTC (6 hours ago)
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| arcastroe wrote:
| People also behave more masochistically when they're bored. When
| placed in a room with no other stimulation other than a button
| that (painfully) shocks you when pushed, people push the button
| out of boredom.
| fosterdill wrote:
| I don't know if putting a maggot through a grinder counts as
| acting sadistically. Boredom is dangerous though, sometimes when
| people are bored they do things like sneak a gun into a situation
| they know could turn violent and then pretend they're a hero
| quacked wrote:
| If this is indeed true, it is yet another piece of evidence in
| the case for prison reform. Prisoners are universally bored, yet
| in many cases insufficiently protected from one another. Read
| accounts of any long-time convict's time in prison and you'll
| hear about excruciating boredom punctuated by acts of outrageous
| sadism.
| simmanian wrote:
| I believe we should focus on separating criminals from non-
| criminals instead of punishing and torturing them. Give them an
| environment where they can thrive without being harmful to
| themselves and others. Let them re-join the society ONLY when
| they pose acceptable risk. This means violent criminals may
| never get to re-join the society, but that's okay given that
| they are still given a humane environment where they can stay
| healthy and thrive.
| AlexTWithBeard wrote:
| so... what do we do with non-criminals? All the small things
| like bike theft, not paying child support, fare evasion and
| urinating in the streets?
|
| For extra credit: assume the offender has no money.
| dahfizz wrote:
| non-criminals? Do you mean non-violent criminals? Theft is
| a crime, perpetrating said crime makes you a criminal.
| AlexTWithBeard wrote:
| That. Or we can put the line between misdemeanor and a
| felony.
| Ensorceled wrote:
| Whoa. Are you _defending_ putting these people in jail with
| murderers and gang members?
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Many countries have prison levels.
|
| Non-violent offenders will be housed in a different
| prison than violent offenders, and the worst of the worst
| (usually lifers) will be put into one or two very secure
| prisons.
|
| This castle is the max security prison in Czechia. Used
| as a prison since 1760 (back then for offending clergy).
| You won't get there for child support debt.
|
| https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C4%9Bznice_M%C3%ADrov
|
| (Though as a former kid whose father was deliberately
| neglecting child support payments - it can work pretty
| long if he lives in another country that has a corrupt
| judicial system - I believe withholding child support
| should be punished by more than just a slap on the wrist.
| Lack of support makes life really hard for the kids.)
| AlexTWithBeard wrote:
| I do not. But what are the alternatives? Spanking?
| [deleted]
| dwohnitmok wrote:
| > Spanking?
|
| Some countries essentially do this (e.g. caning in
| Singapore).
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Don't you, at least in Singapore, get caning _in
| addition_ to a prison sentence?
| dwohnitmok wrote:
| I thought that there were at least some circumstances
| where caning would happen in lieu of a prison sentence
| but it looks like I'm wrong.
| AlexTWithBeard wrote:
| TIL: In Singapore parents can declare their children
| "beyond parental control". From that point the government
| will take care of their behavior.
|
| [1] https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/what-
| is-a-beyo...
| [deleted]
| watwut wrote:
| Basically, you suggest even longer sentences in country that
| already leads incarceration rates worldwide.
| ddoolin wrote:
| I'm classified as a "violent criminal" by the state by way of
| having a violent felony. Not trying to be inflammatory, but
| this sounds like awful idea, mostly psychological and
| societal at large. In my experience, many, many people have
| this "us vs. them" attitude towards criminals, as in "I would
| _never_ commit a crime so therefore _they_ are not like _us_.
| " The reality is, countless people are either innocent or
| one-time offenders (or others who likely do not "deserve"
| exile). Further division along further boundaries is probably
| not what we need, especially one which is nearly certain to
| be universally looked down upon.
|
| So, IMO, resources would be much better spent improving what
| we have (a lot), making sure justice & sentencing is fair and
| consistent, and certainly doing a _much_ better job of post-
| incarceration support, community, and monitoring. I would
| wager that many, many more people can be helped out of their
| circumstances than are currently, but prisoners are almost
| dropped entirely once they 're released.
| simmanian wrote:
| Thank you for sharing. I personally view "violent
| criminals" as regular human beings and believe we should
| stop classifying people as violent criminals the moment
| they no longer pose significant danger to others. But maybe
| you're right in seeing that most don't share these views.
| Regardless, what I'm trying to say is ALL people deserve to
| organize themselves in ways that lead to safe, healthy, and
| happy lives. We should not torture people for decades for
| murdering others. Rather, let them live in a way that
| allows them to thrive while protecting the rest from
| getting harmed.
| _moof wrote:
| I get where you're coming from but realize that you're
| advocating for indefinite sentences, which are inhumane,
| combined with a board of fallible, perversely
| incentivized people who will determine who is
| rehabilitated and who isn't. The board will presumably be
| subject to the will of a sadistic, vengeful public who
| have cartoonish beliefs about a system they have no
| direct knowledge of, and who completely fail to
| understand even the most basic rights afforded under the
| constitution. (Go look at just about any tweet about the
| fifth amendment.)
|
| It sounds great on paper but the second real people get
| involved, it becomes a humans rights disaster.
| simmanian wrote:
| I agree that it would be difficult to implement these
| practices at once. But the core idea, that all people
| have the right to organize in a way that leads to
| sustainable happiness, can be implemented in small chunks
| in many different, less controversial aspects of our
| lives. I imagine if the idea gets enough traction, we can
| then take a good look at how we treat those who refuse to
| harmonize with the general population.
| JimBlackwood wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. Especially the "us vs. them"-view.
|
| I recently realised this while watching Gordon Ramsay's Bad
| Boy Bakery. The sentiment (I assume often portrayed
| intentionally by the show) about prisoners really both
| shocked and confused me. It's as if people want prisoners
| to do absolutely nothing, somehow still act according to
| their rules and then somehow flourish in society after
| release.
|
| imo, prison systems should be more focused on learning
| crafts and education in general. I feel like the vast
| majority are in for minor crimes and somehow their life
| should be ruined for it. Doesn't seem just.
|
| There's definitely some people who pose a permanent danger
| to society, and some prison sentences will seem just. But
| there's no reason they should be bored out of their minds
| cm2012 wrote:
| Sounds like a pretty good compromise for public safety
| quacked wrote:
| I agree with you, I just think it would take a lot more money
| and effort to provide this environment.
| serverholic wrote:
| Ending the war on drugs would open up some room
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| Penal colonies and other forms of exile are cruel and
| unusual. It's hard to conceive because this form of
| punishment has been disused in the west for nearly as long as
| drawing and quartering, but historical use of exile gives a
| sense for how extreme permanent exile is as a punishment.
|
| Even in the age of drawing and quartering, penal colonies
| were used primarily as an alternative to capital punishment.
| In the age of gruesome physical torture, exile was used
| primarily an alternative to _execution_.
| simmanian wrote:
| I think the key difference is I'm focusing on allowing
| people to live with others they can synergize well with. I
| oppose the focus on punishing (torturing) criminals. I do
| not believe we should permanently exile all violent
| criminals into wilderness. I believe they should live in a
| safe and healthy environment where they can thrive. We
| shouldn't let someone who's likely to murder people out on
| the streets with no help to get them reintegrated just
| because they did their time. At the same time, there's no
| reason we should keep someone locked up when they have
| truly changed. Give criminals a healthy environment where
| they can thrive and even be happy. Give criminals a chance
| to join back when they really want to.
| nradov wrote:
| Maintaining a sufficient level of physical security to
| reliably confine violent criminals while also giving them
| a safe and healthy environment where they can thrive
| would be extremely expensive. It sounds great in theory,
| but most citizens wouldn't be willing to pay more taxes
| for it. (And yes I'm aware we could find the necessary
| funds by slashing military spending but realistically
| that's not going to happen.)
| judahmeek wrote:
| That depends on how you define "violent criminal".
|
| I've been convicted of an assault charge before, do I
| qualify?
| nradov wrote:
| Well that would depend on the specific facts of your
| case, which is why we give judges some flexibility in
| sentencing. There's a huge difference between punching
| someone in a bar brawl versus pistol whipping a store
| clerk during an armed robbery.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| That's all reasonable, but a bit utopian.
|
| There are tons of serious pragmatic issues with your
| suggestions, as well as serious political questions about
| how to convince people to implement them.
| trmonx wrote:
| You make various odd connections there that are just not
| true. Violent criminals do not thrive together with other
| violent criminals. By definition those are people who
| have trouble fitting in a society. There's a high chance
| of various bad things happening and so you need rules and
| guards and so on. It would never be a free society when
| talking about bad criminals and not small offenders.
| rhn_mk1 wrote:
| I don't see a meaningful difference between exile and
| inprisonment then. In either way, you remove the people
| from their communities for an extended period of time. I
| don't think it's consequential to make a difference between
| them being stuck outside or inside the geographical area.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Being able to walk outside, feel the sun, the air or the
| rain on your face, touching grass, trees or rocks - that
| would be a huge difference for me.
| KineticLensman wrote:
| Exile might sometimes give people an opportunity to
| create a new life for themselves, even if it wouldn't
| have been their own choice. Especially if exile is to a
| semi-free society, as opposed to exile to a prison colony
| or an internal gulag. Some people may even thrive as a
| result. There is no comparison with an lengthy period of
| imprisonment, with no freedoms at all
| mnw21cam wrote:
| Isn't that basically how Australia was populated?
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| Australia was populated long before that. 100k or so
| convicts shipped over a century probably means fewer than
| 50k shipped-convict population at once, compared to an 800k
| aboriginal population (plus or minus a lot).
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Or school reform.
| pasquinelli wrote:
| also a good reason to avoid social media.
| mc32 wrote:
| So put them to work and pay them the going rate [in the normal
| economy] and use that toward victim restitution?
|
| If you pay them the market rate and this activity improves
| their well-being compared to being sedentary, I think it's a
| win for all involved.
| smt88 wrote:
| Forced labor is an incentive to incarcerate more people.
| Incarceration should not be profitable.
|
| It would be better to give them daily education, therapy,
| recreation, etc. They have piloted such programs in the US
| with a lot of success at preventing recidivism.
|
| All of this can save costs in the long run. Paying for prison
| security, medical costs, maintenance, turnover, and
| recidivism is extremely expensive.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| Forced labor in a fixed geographic region with strict
| security requirements is fundamentally incongruent with
| pricing power.
|
| I think prisoners should have the option to work and that
| they should be subject to all of the normal worker protection
| laws. Wages can go toward some combination of restitution and
| improving quality of life in prisons: food, lodging,
| entertainment in off hours, etc.
|
| Restitution should be limited to a fixed percentage of
| monthly income (as it is in the civilian world). Why? Because
| removing positive reinforcement from the act of labor has
| perverse psychological effects. These effects persist after
| incarceration and contribute to recidivism.
|
| This sort of system is insufficiently punitive for some, so
| the politics of these reforms are tricky.
| notdemo88 wrote:
| circleit wrote:
| Look up CCI in Colorado. They pay almost nothing for
| prisoners to work in industries like manufacturing. They then
| sell these products to businesses so they can claim it was
| made in the USA (so awesome!). It's all slave labor
| essentially. Then, with the skills these people learn, when
| they're released they can't get hired because they have a
| record. Whole thing is a disgusting joke. Taking advantage of
| people that ended up in their situation because they never
| had direction or opportunities to begin with.
|
| (Should mention they just got a new director and she is
| really awesome. Came from the women's bean project. Hope she
| can make some positive change but she'll have to fight a lot
| of bureaucracy.)
| lostcolony wrote:
| I'd be happy if we'd just get over this vindictive need to
| deprive prisoners of basic pleasures.
|
| I've seen outrage over the idea that prisoners have access to
| TVs, or gaming consoles, or similar, stories of wardens
| confiscating books and pen and paper and such. I understand
| there are some other concerns that may warrant keeping usage
| of some of those under surveillance or similar (keep a pencil
| from being used as a shiv say), but other countries don't try
| and make prisons as miserable an experience as possible, and
| they have far, far lower rates of recidivism and violence and
| such.
| tristor wrote:
| > I'd be happy if we'd just get over this vindictive need
| to deprive prisoners of basic pleasures.
|
| I won't argue that there aren't some people who have such a
| vindictive need, but in most cases where I've had
| conversations with folks about things like this, it's more
| that they oppose someone having a similar (or maybe
| "better") quality of life to what they have, without
| working to pay for it, and rather being paid for by them.
| The opposition to these things in prisons seem similar to
| the arguments I hear from people against social safety net
| things generally. Not to say these arguments are
| reasonable, but I don't think vindictiveness is the primary
| driving factor.
| floren wrote:
| If the last two years have taught us anything, it's that
| being stuck in one place, even if it's your own house,
| feels pretty bad when you _cannot_ go do something else.
| doubled112 wrote:
| My brain seems to reflexively get "bored" when they've
| announced any new restrictions or measures. I'm not sure
| bored is even the right word, but it's the best way I can
| describe it.
|
| It makes me laugh at myself because I wasn't going to do
| any of it either way.
| quacked wrote:
| I understand their frustration, but I think it's a win-
| win situation to provide a nice life in prison. They get
| out of society so we don't have to deal with them and
| they also aren't subject to torturous conditions.
| lostcolony wrote:
| Okay, maybe. Rather than people wanting the worst
| possible thing for prisoners because of the perceived
| harm those prisoners have caused them (vindictiveness),
| they want the worst possible thing for prisoners because
| HOW DARE someone else have something nicer than them that
| they didn't "earn". That's the same attitude that would
| begrudge a homeless person a donated name brand hoodie,
| because (you) had to pay $X for it.
|
| That's even worse. But maybe the term should be
| different; maybe it isn't vindictiveness.
|
| The US is the most incarcerated country in the world. We
| have the most prisoners, the most prisoners per capita,
| the highest spending on prisoners, and one of the worst
| recidivism rates (76% after 5 years).
|
| What we're doing is -clearly- not working. The idea that
| we'd rather spend -more- than other countries, on a
| system that works worse, begs the question of 'why'. Why
| would we want to keep doing the same thing, that isn't
| working, -and- costs us more? Because we think prisoners
| don't deserve better.
|
| Maybe that isn't "vindictiveness", but it's damned close.
|
| It certainly isn't "I want to make sure my tax dollars
| being used effectively", or "I want the best outcomes
| from prisons", or even "I want to make sure they're only
| getting what they need to serve their time and then be
| able to come out and rejoin society".
|
| It very much is "Damn the consequences, and how much it
| costs, I want them to have the worst possible
| experience".
| tristor wrote:
| > It very much is "Damn the consequences, and how much it
| costs, I want them to have the worst possible
| experience".
|
| To be clear, I am not agreeing with the position I am
| describing. Rather, I am trying to very specifically say
| that it is NOT "very much... I want them to have the
| worst possible experience."
|
| If anything, I think the attitude I described may be more
| reflective of the overall poor quality of life (relative
| to the possibilities) that the majority of Americans
| enjoy in their day-to-day lives due to the widening
| wealthy inequality. For many people, who can't even
| afford access to entertainment like "gaming consoles",
| providing such to prisoners out of the taxpayer's till
| makes them question why their life is so hard and what
| they're working for if they could just become anti-social
| and get enjoyment beyond "three hots and a cot". Granted,
| perhaps it would be useful if more people questioned
| their lot in life and how we got here, but the result of
| that questioning for many is not high-minded ideals and
| calls for more equality.
|
| You seem to be reiterating the idea of vindictiveness in
| your conclusion, while acknowledging that something akin
| to spite might be more causative earlier on in your
| response. I am not sure I'd classify exactly what I'm
| describing as either spite or vindictiveness, but it's
| certainly a dark feeling. What I'm observing is that many
| people are uncomfortable with the idea of prisoners
| having an enjoyable enough quality of life such that
| their own non-prison life seems worse by comparison, it
| creates feelings of futility towards life and engenders a
| certain type of nihilism. I think considering that people
| are merely vindictive or spiteful is an
| oversimplification that does not fully encompass the
| complexity of the human experience. You should also
| consider that many people who are in the bottom half of
| American society /know/ someone who's been in prison, or
| may have been in prison themselves, so it is not as if
| the realities of the prison experience have escaped these
| people. As you rightly point out, the US has the highest
| incarceration and recidivism rates in the world, and it's
| predominantly people who are "lower class" ending up
| there, mostly from a demographic standpoint the same
| folks who hold the viewpoint I'm trying to point out.
| elliekelly wrote:
| Is there a word that means the opposite of schadenfreude?
| Displeasure at the advancement of others?
| WalterBright wrote:
| envy
| reuben364 wrote:
| I understand envy to be more about what others have in
| relation to you, rather then what they have in relation
| to their past selves.
| lostcolony wrote:
| In this case, "spite". As in, "I don't want you to have
| anything nice, even if it cost me less and led to better
| outcomes for you and society at large (and thus
| indirectly me)". As in, "bite off your nose to spite your
| face".
| KerrAvon wrote:
| >'s more that they oppose someone having a similar (or
| maybe "better") quality of life to what they have,
| without working to pay for it, and rather being paid for
| by them
|
| This is very akin to vindictiveness, though. It's one of
| the most corrosive forces in American political life.
| *Someone* might get something they don't *deserve*. Bonus
| points if that someone is the "other" (Jewish, brown
| skin, Mexican, whatever). The right wing used this as a
| wedge issue in the 80's ("welfare queens") to make life
| miserable for the poor and it's the driving force behind
| a lot of anti-immigration rhetoric here and abroad.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> confiscating books_
|
| Deb Alderson's Global Tel*Link is replacing libraries with
| locked down tablets that have e-reader apps. Inmates are
| charged a couple bucks an hour for access to the tablet and
| are limited to 90 minutes of reading time.
|
| E.g.,
|
| https://www.jurist.org/news/2020/11/allegheny-county-jail-
| li...
|
| https://moguldom.com/241982/exploiting-prisoners-w-
| virginia-...
| elliekelly wrote:
| Tangentially related, a few years ago the New Yorker
| published a wonderful article about reading in prison
| called "A Prisoner's Reading List":
| https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/a-prisoners-
| read...
| throwawayboise wrote:
| That all depends on whether one views prison as a
| deterrent, a punishment, or an attempt at reformation.
| WalterBright wrote:
| I view it as simply protecting society from a person who
| won't behave in society, by isolating him from society.
| awb wrote:
| I'd pass on the forced labor part, but make work at a going
| rate optional. Bring separated from everyone and everything
| you love is punishment enough in many cases.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| "The going rate" will be low, because of market dynamics.
| Either you need a prisoners' minimum wage, or you need to not
| do that; people do still have rights even if they've
| committed crimes.
|
| Put them in education, give them food and shelter, and
| they'll be better able to contribute to society when they get
| out.
| tw04 wrote:
| They should have the option of school or work, with a
| minimum GPA required to stay in school. The biggest issue
| will be supervision of the grading to ensure it's not being
| abused either to punish people who are doing well or to let
| people off who aren't actually doing their work.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| A family member was in prison for petty theft and breaking
| parole for over 25 years.
|
| When they got out, they didn't even know how to drive because
| it started from teenage years (abusive father).
|
| I was shocked that the state didn't spend an ounce of energy to
| at least teach these people basic skills.
|
| Now they are forced to live in cities where they are more
| likely to interact with bad influences.
|
| Anyway, I wonder if driving could be part of reform. E.g. let
| them be a part of the driving economy to build skills and
| support the nation.
| kgran wrote:
| I know a little about car-dependency in the US, but sheesh...
| I am always astounded how such things like driving being a
| basic skill or having a car being a necessity are
| unquestionable parts of living and culture there.
| scythe wrote:
| I mean the "obvious" alternative that satisfies those
| predicates is house arrest: separated from society, not in
| danger from other prisoners.
|
| So I'd ask: What prevents us from using house arrest as an
| alternative to imprisonment more often? How can those problems
| be addressed? Can we "build a better house arrest" -- maybe
| even from within the private sector?
| namelessoracle wrote:
| Prison is fundamentally flawed from a conceptual basis. Is the
| idea to reform someone? To make them not repeat their crime? Is
| it to punish? It is to discourage? It does none of these job as
| well as it could.
|
| Lets take for an example a semi successful drug dealer. Odds
| are the drug dealer choose that profession because the rewards
| were higher than the risks. So to discourage that you can 1)
| make prison so terrible he fears it more than the rewards from
| dealing 2) teach him something that is of comparable economic
| utility so he no longer wants to deal drugs.
|
| The problem is that option 2 is arguably a reward. If you
| create incentives to break rules ("I break the law and sell
| drugs, my punishment is that i get locked away from X years and
| be forced to learn a trade or get a degree") then why wouldnt
| you break rules? We seem to pretend we dont want 1. But I've
| seen plenty of comments from conservatives about how the
| criminals deserve what they get, and oddly enough I also hear
| "dont drop the soap" jokes from liberals when its people they
| dont like....
|
| Then you have for example murderers. Quite a few murderers will
| probably never murder again. The man who kills his wife and her
| lover after catching them in bed, is probably not going to be
| killing anyone again. It was that set of situations that drove
| them to that. What more can the person do than classes on
| impulse control? And your going to get them to learn that by
| putting them in the place where the impulse stimulus is
| completely different than the regular world? What does life or
| a lengthy prison accomplish if punishment/deterrence is not the
| goal?
|
| Thats not even getting into the fact that prison is the main
| mental health provider for anyone with serious issues who cant
| get family to take care of them. (and even people who have
| family might not be able to afford their particular issues). A
| person with severe schizophrenia who attacks others can't
| really be reformed
|
| The only real fix is to be honest about what the goal of
| "prison" is. And break the concept out into reform,
| containment, and punishment. At least then you can optimize
| towards those goals.
| the_jeremy wrote:
| Making prison worse is unlikely to help[0] in that harsher
| sentences already don't help reduce crime.
|
| [0]: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/247350.pdf
| thoughtsimple wrote:
| "Bored now"
| MrDrDr wrote:
| Impressed the author resisted using the phrase "The devil finds
| work for idle hands".
| encryptluks2 wrote:
| There are a lot of factors that could contribute to sadistic
| behaviors aside from simply boredom. When people are bored, often
| they lack purpose and in the modern world a purpose can be
| difficult to find and follow, especially when depending on
| someones socioeconomic status it may seem near impossible to
| accomplish larger goals that they've already dismissed as near
| impossible (and rightfully so) that may prove to give them value.
|
| Maybe they need a career change. Depending on someones age and
| commitments, the idea of changing careers can be very difficult.
| How do you keep paying bills and working in a job you hate,
| taking care of family, but learn something new that will become
| fruitful. I can relate to feeling like you want to lash out at
| people, unfortunately often these can be people that just seem
| like easier targets.
|
| At least for me my lashing out is more about just being honest
| with people that normally I'd normally ignore, but have decided
| that I should just tell them the cold hard truths.
| reactspa wrote:
| "an empty mind is a devil's workshop".
| ahallock wrote:
| Does this bode well for when low-level (and even high-level) jobs
| are mostly automated and we need UBI?
| dang wrote:
| I have a similar thought about flamewars on the internet, or
| rather about why generic discussions so often turn into
| flamewars: the mind resorts to indignation to amuse itself in the
| absence of anything more interesting.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
| stcredzero wrote:
| I wonder if this doesn't have some survival value for _Homo
| sapiens_? If people are bored, it often means that they are
| secure and well off. At that point, to maximize the survival of
| the species, perhaps it would be of strategic value to send
| people off exploring to create new settlements?
|
| From the standpoint of genes, in small settlements, there would
| tend to be some inter-relatedness, so this would be a way for
| genes to distribute copies of themselves geographically.
|
| This could even have memetic (in the academic/generic Richard
| Dawkins sense) survival implications. In the same way that
| established villages could send out dissidents like "seeds" to
| start new settlements, perhaps internet forums do something
| analogous?
|
| (I have another horrible sounding idea: Perhaps the penchant
| for little children to grab things to put into their mouths is
| a way for 1) the most expendable members of the community to
| act as inadvertent food tasters/poison detectors for the group
| and 2) a late filter to knock inattentive parents out of the
| gene pool. I know it's all evolutionary "just so stories," but
| it's fun to speculate.)
| CapitalistCartr wrote:
| Little children putting stuff in their mouths has an
| immediate use. I discovered this with a child that lacked
| this stage of development. It's important to their eating.
| Babies learn to eat whatever they're fed. If they're fed
| spicy food, Thai hot, that's their normal. Being willing to
| taste/try anything makes this pretty easy. And, overall,
| babies are hard.
| throwawaysea wrote:
| Being bored seems like one of the factors, but I also wonder if
| it is additionally caused by being unhappy or angry or [some
| other emotion] in other parts of our lives.
| dang wrote:
| I'm sure that's also part of it.
| sleepysysadmin wrote:
| Pleasure is fleeting. It must be or else you'd still be glowing
| from your first orgasm.
|
| Inevitably the search for pleasure will require variety and
| inevitably that variety brings you to inflicting pain on others.
|
| We do it publicly. The romans fed people to the lions. We have
| lots of violent sports. Nascar isn't about driving left. It's
| about the crashes. Hockey is about the fights and checking. Lets
| not even evaluate violent videogames.
|
| The real trick is understanding what's happening in your brain
| and controlling this before it gets to the need to inflict pain.
| coolso wrote:
| NASCAR and hockey are about a whole lot more than the things
| you mentioned, as any fan of either will tell you.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| There's a lot of different nuances to all sports. I used to
| find baseball boring. But after coaching little league and
| watching and help players grow, I've developed a an
| appreciation for the nuances of both the games and the plays
| by themselves.
|
| Hockey is similar. The fights are the surface.
| Taywee wrote:
| Out of the hockey fans I know, only the really casual watchers
| are interested in fights and checking at all. The big fans are
| way more interested in the strategy and statistics and many of
| them are annoyed when a big fight breaks out and wastes time in
| the game. If what you were saying was true, way more people
| would just be watching videos on the internet of people getting
| into street fights than professional sports.
|
| It's way easier to find videos of car crashes than it is to
| watch hours of cars driving in circles. I don't understand the
| appeal of NASCAR, but it's clearly not about the crashes.
|
| > Lets not even evaluate violent videogames.
|
| Why not? You might find that long-term players of games are
| more interested in good gameplay than bloody effects or the
| violence itself. I've noticed that games in general are tending
| toward less violence and blood than a decade or so ago.
|
| I think you are being unfairly judgemental about things that
| you don't understand.
| sleepysysadmin wrote:
| >Out of the hockey fans I know, only the really casual
| watchers are interested in fights and checking at all. The
| big fans are way more interested in the strategy and
| statistics and many of them are annoyed when a big fight
| breaks out and wastes time in the game. If what you were
| saying was true, way more people would just be watching
| videos on the internet of people getting into street fights
| than professional sports.
|
| To be fair I havent watched in quite some time but as the
| saying goes... I went to a fight, and a hockey game broke
| out!
|
| This is very simple to evaluate. What would happen to the NHL
| is fighting and checking was banned. Any physical violence is
| an immediate contract break and players thrown out of the
| league? Dont get another $.
|
| Obviously violence would go away but how'd the sport work
| out? I'm thinking hockey would suck pretty hardcore. NHL
| viewership would be at all-time lows without question.
|
| Also yes, street fighting videos are ridiculously popular but
| also why they were banned on so many platforms.
|
| >It's way easier to find videos of car crashes than it is to
| watch hours of cars driving in circles. I don't understand
| the appeal of NASCAR, but it's clearly not about the crashes.
|
| I mean no offence against nascar. F1 has nothing but crashes
| as well. Every highlight reel is about the crashes. So it is
| about nascar. Nascar highlights are all about crashes.
|
| >Why not? You might find that long-term players of games are
| more interested in good gameplay than bloody effects or the
| violence itself. I've noticed that games in general are
| tending toward less violence and blood than a decade or so
| ago.
|
| The violence is the point being made. Pleasure is fleeting.
| Violent video games are fantastic because it lets you chop
| someone's head off when you cant do it in person. When you
| have gone so far as to needing that level of pleasure, the
| next step in solving boredom will be more extreme.
|
| >I think you are being unfairly judgemental about things that
| you don't understand.
|
| Not judgmental at all. I've got my TF2 and skyrim installed.
| I watch violent sports. Im not judging people who do these
| things. I can see that's how people took my post by the heavy
| downvotes.
|
| The point being made isnt about NHL being bad or good or that
| fights are or arent part of it. Its that this pleasure
| seeking constantly increases.
| Taywee wrote:
| Pleasure seeking increases, sure, I just don't agree that
| violence is the prime focus or end goal of any majority of
| the participants or viewers of any of the things you
| brought up. Violence might be a part of it, but it's
| clearly not the main part of any of it, otherwise violence
| would be increasing rather than decreasing in every single
| one of those, and more people would just turn to the
| simpler sources of violence. Why would anybody watch Hockey
| for the fights when many games don't have any fights at
| all? Nobody who really just wants to see car crashes is
| going to sit through hours of cars driving in circles for
| the chance to occasionally see a car hit a wall and spin
| out.
|
| > Every highlight reel is about the crashes. So it is about
| nascar. Nascar highlights are all about crashes.
|
| Looking up "Nascar highlights" on YouTube, I can see that
| it's not all about crashes, it seems to be all about
| turnarounds, where somebody suddenly overtakes somebody
| else, or somebody loses their position quickly, so crashes
| are a part of that, but it doesn't seem to be "about
| crashes", but rather about changes in the standings of a
| race in progress.
| sleepysysadmin wrote:
| >Pleasure seeking increases, sure, I just don't agree
| that violence is the prime focus or end goal of any
| majority of the participants or viewers of any of the
| things you brought up.
|
| no, not prime focus yet. If hockey is a fresh pleasure,
| the fighting or violence isn't important. The end goal
| however is that you must have this violence or the
| pleasure seeker moves to the next thing which will have
| it.
|
| >Violence might be a part of it, but it's clearly not the
| main part of any of it, otherwise violence would be
| increasing rather than decreasing in every single one of
| those, and more people would just turn to the simpler
| sources of violence.
|
| That's my point and why i picked my choices. Violence
| isn't the prime focus. Afterall go watch boxing or MMA.
| Which some people have gotten their pleasure seek onto
| this for sure.
|
| >Why would anybody watch Hockey for the fights when many
| games don't have any fights at all? Nobody who really
| just wants to see car crashes is going to sit through
| hours of cars driving in circles for the chance to
| occasionally see a car hit a wall and spin out.
|
| Fighting is but 1 violence. Checking is another. Elbowing
| and slashing are others.
|
| >Looking up "Nascar highlights" on YouTube, I can see
| that it's not all about crashes, it seems to be all about
| turnarounds, where somebody suddenly overtakes somebody
| else, or somebody loses their position quickly, so
| crashes are a part of that, but it doesn't seem to be
| "about crashes", but rather about changes in the
| standings of a race in progress.
|
| Lets not even go into derbies where the goal is to
| literally crash into each other until you're the last
| working car.
|
| Or monster trucks which crush other cars.
|
| This is all about pleasure seeking and constantly need to
| increase which leads into sadism.
| lkasdjfb09u wrote:
| Did you just try to criticize gaming on HN? See you at the
| bottom.
| dang wrote:
| Could you please stop creating accounts like this? It will
| eventually get your main account banned as well.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| lkasdjfb09u wrote:
| shmde wrote:
| How is violent video games trying to inflict pain on others ?
| pasquinelli wrote:
| i think it expresses itself when players talk to each other.
| kradeelav wrote:
| I love violent video games and media as much as the next gal
| (Doom, ME3, Hellsing as an anime, etc) - but I can absolutely
| see the connection of trying to work out that
| pleasure/boredom with fiction.
| [deleted]
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| "If I'm alone too long I think too much, and I'm not interested
| in doing that. That won't lead anywhere good, I'm sure. If I'm
| busy I tend to stay out of trouble. An idle mind is the devil's
| playground." Lisa Marie Presley =)
| enduser wrote:
| This is a good case for redistribution of wealth.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| You have countries such as the oil sheikhdoms where the
| citizens (not the guest workers) have a lot of wealth and idle
| time.
|
| They didn't turn into creative utopias, quite to the contrary.
| AlexTWithBeard wrote:
| Without more details it sounds like seeing everything as a nail
| when having a pet golden hammer.
| austincheney wrote:
| I don't know how true this is in general but upon a bit of
| reflection I will say I am more honest when I am bored. That is
| pretty extreme coming from somebody who normally has no
| resignations about social awkwardness from blunt honesty.
|
| The common response to my bored honesty is typically a positive
| mix of bewilderment and curiosity. People tend to find the
| unexpected hyper criticality a bit entertaining.
| jacob019 wrote:
| So do cats.
| Borrible wrote:
| I'm burned by social sciences so I'll wait for a replication
| study. But as an aside, grinding maggots is not exactly my idea
| of sadism. I prefer when they feel physical pain. Or at least
| think they look like they do. Although, mental atrocities are
| actually my specialty. They must excite my empathy, I'm more the
| sensitive type. The icing on the cake is, when they like it.
|
| Confiscating one of their most important holds on reality, their
| smarthphones, stealing their time and making them watch boring
| 20-minute videos about waterfalls on the other hand...
|
| There I sense a really sneaky kind of evil. A bit like that
| Milgram stage drama.
|
| Yeah, I know, I'm such a bore.
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| Experience with maggots is an important control variable,
| especially given the tiny sample size (13 people ground
| maggots).
|
| I suspect that people who have experience dealing with a maggot
| infestation -- or any infestation -- will have a very different
| relationship to grinding maggots.
|
| I wouldn't think twice about grinding maggots, but to do so
| voluntarily I'd have to have nothing better to do because it's
| not pleasant work.
|
| I don't think grinding maggots is particularly violent. This is
| probably because I had to deal with a very serious and
| persistent maggot infestation. There's really no way to deal
| with a maggot infestation except to kill them en masse using
| methods that appear sadistic (e.g., boiling water or chemical
| treatment).
|
| An alternative title might be "Dealing with a maggot
| infestation is necessary but unpleasant work... you have to be
| pretty bored before you decide to do this work voluntarily."
| Borrible wrote:
| > people who have experience dealing with a maggot
| infestation
|
| I do, albeit just a small one.
|
| My wife used to feed our American Staffordshire with raw
| offal, especially beef stomach, tripe, whatever. Absolutely
| disgusting. But he loved it.He seemed to inhale about two
| pounds of it in what I perceived as nanoseconds. He was such
| a charming beast, absolutely adorable. But disgusting
| nontheless. May he rest in peace.
|
| Anyway, one friday morning we forgot to take out the trash
| with a handfull of leftovers from that stuff before setting
| off for a little trip over the weekend.
|
| I tell you, sunday evening was hell on earth. The lord of the
| flies himself had infested our kitchen. Thankfully its door
| was closed during the infestation and they weren't fully
| awake and they all sat sluggish and fat on the windows. I
| annihilated most of them with the vacuum cleaner and started
| a search and destroy mission that lasted half of the night. A
| few hundred sleepy flies and some leftover maggots had to
| die. No remorse. Thought about nuking the place from orbit.
|
| I don't have to mention, we never ever feed our AmStaff with
| offal again.
| hermannj314 wrote:
| How do you monetize it?
|
| Create a boring livestream of you doing nothing, where people can
| pay money and then you experience pain.
|
| Make it a SaaS, sell an IOT pain inducer to your streamers and
| collect a percentage.
| omarhaneef wrote:
| You can see this effect on school playgrounds and twitter.
| awb wrote:
| And in rat utopias: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
| 0_____0 wrote:
| Cool theory with outsized cultural influence, but one would
| be remiss to not mention that the results of that study are
| on shaky ground and were not replicated.
| the-dude wrote:
| Rather we have a shortage of bored scientists :
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis
| coolso wrote:
| Speaking of which, what can we do to bring up the mean IQ of
| Twitter to the level of school playgrounds?
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Give them access to toys. Imagine if Twitter users had
| skipping ropes!
| JanisL wrote:
| Give a higher maximum character limit
| lr4444lr wrote:
| This is why the Roman generals in Britain built Hadrian's Wall.
| They knew it wasn't defensively useful for crap, but it kept a
| lot of trained soldiers far away from home stuck in a cold
| unpleasant land with people they did not view as civilized from
| becoming a dangerous idle mass of people.
| surajs wrote:
| ppeetteerr wrote:
| Scientific proof that "The devil makes work for idle hands to do"
| is accurate
|
| Edit: not in a religious sort-of-way
| good8675309 wrote:
| Do non-christians really reject this type of wisdom just
| because it's biblical and only now accept it because we have
| scientific proof of it?
| ppeetteerr wrote:
| I suspect religion adopted a lot of sound advice and made it
| religious
| julianlam wrote:
| No?
|
| The bible contains a lot of good advice packaged in the form
| of religious parables. They're not unique to religious
| people.
|
| E.g. "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is
| the same as "what goes around comes around"
| TameAntelope wrote:
| If I'm being completely honest, once I discovered all of the
| manipulations and lies Christianity perpetrates on its
| people, everything else I hear about the religion I take with
| a heaping pile of salt, including wisdom I might, in a
| vacuum, accept.
|
| My thought is usually something like, "Yes, and how did this
| 'wisdom' help earlier Christian leaders control their
| followers?"
| good8675309 wrote:
| Sorry you had such a bad time with religion. Our
| experiences really do affect how we perceive the world. I
| also had a bad experience with it growing up, rejected it,
| became an atheist, then really experienced God later on and
| it changed me. There really is beauty in the Bible and the
| life of Christ. Real hope, real redemption for broken
| humanity. You have to separate Christianity from the people
| that abuse it for control, manipulation, and power. Those
| things are not principles that the Bible teaches, in fact
| Jesus condemns those actions explicitly.
| TameAntelope wrote:
| I did not have a bad experience with religion growing up
| (I had little/no experience with religion growing up),
| but the manipulation I'm referencing is available for
| anyone to read about, as the history of the Catholic
| church is not private information.
|
| The beauty in Christianity is co-opted and stolen from
| the beauty of the universe in an effort to control
| others. Very little about Christianity is uniquely
| beautiful, in my opinion.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Yes, these old sayings are often grounded in reality, even if
| they are part of a larger philosophy based on faith.
| rozap wrote:
| And a lot of practices encoded into faith just grew out of
| reality. Like not eating pork because at the time, you'd get
| nasty things like trichinosis.
|
| But there's a lot of bullshit, too.
| mrkentutbabi wrote:
| Another argument against UBI
| SavantIdiot wrote:
| > bored people will give themselves electric shocks
|
| That's masochism, not sadism.
|
| When I get incensed on the internet it is due to overt display of
| -isms, and not a desire to hurt someone (or get hurt), but more
| of: your attitude and behavior is hurtful to others and here is
| why. However, trying to change someone's attitude in non-troll
| way when they are entrenched in their belief system leads to a
| flame-wars 98% of the time. I'm always hoping for that 2%.
| antux wrote:
| Makes a lot of sense. A study found that boredom could lead to
| early death (source: https://www.nydailynews.com/life-
| style/health/bored-death-no...)
|
| That means any kind of stimulation is preferred over no
| stimulation. If sadism is the only kind of stimulation one can
| get, they'll take it for the sake of survival.
| intrepidhero wrote:
| I like the relevant quote from Pascal, "All of humanity's
| problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room
| alone" mainly because it's allows me to feel smugly superior
| while procrastinating work.
| [deleted]
| trembonator wrote:
| xtiansimon wrote:
| I believe it! I am surrounded by retirement-age non-workers, one
| who is an alcoholic, one with severe medical condition, a
| practically non-verbal who lives like a hobo--oh, and one does
| resent having to work part-time, and let's you know it.
|
| The first one will go nuts and scream his head off all night and
| has been arrested so many times they know him by name. The next
| just bought a rolling chair and likes to roll around his
| apartment, the next wakes up all hours during the night and is
| constantly moving his milk crates and lawn furniture and dropping
| things that roll (these two live above me) and the last stomps
| around the building and can be heard at 0400 in the morning
| whining about her life and talking $#!t about everything and
| everyone.
|
| Fracking Miserable people who spread misery.
|
| I mentioned to the people above me and the one denies he rides
| the chair and then uses his medical condition as an excuse. The
| other said flatly, "too bad".
| lapsedacademic wrote:
| _> one with severe medical condition... bought a rolling chair
| and likes to roll around his apartment [all hours during the
| night]... denies he rides the chair and then uses his medical
| condition as an excuse_
|
| I mean... is his medical condition related to his ability to
| walk and sleep well? E.g., does he:
|
| 1. have trouble walking
|
| 2. can't afford a wheelchair
|
| 3. has continence issues?
|
| That would explain rolling around at all hours of the night.
| And sourcing him some cheap/free mats/carpets to cover the
| floor between his bed and bathroom could help you sleep better.
|
| In any case... sorry you have to put up with that. Having noisy
| upstairs neighbors sucks.
| VladimirGolovin wrote:
| I have a pet theory that smartphones and the mobile Internet are
| the primary reasons for the decline of violent street crime.
| People these days don't need to be violent to entertain
| themselves -- because they now have porn, dating, gossip, games,
| and gambling in their pockets. Plus it's a lot safer than
| violence.
| lprubin wrote:
| There is an interesting exploration of this in the Altered Carbon
| universe. If people can become functionally immortal, will they
| inevitably grow tired of societally acceptable pursuits and move
| on to sadism?
| Apocryphon wrote:
| It's a sci-fi trope of sorts. Also see the Elder from Warhammer
| 40,000.
| danwills wrote:
| Also 'Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged' from "The
| Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy":
|
| "After a period of total boredom, especially on Sunday
| afternoons, he decided to insult everyone in the entire
| universe in alphabetical order." (A quote from the fandom
| wiki)
| Apocryphon wrote:
| An excellent rare example of this trope being lighthearted!
| notdemo88 wrote:
| You don't need fiction to explore it; look at the rich and
| comfortable in our society forcing austerity on the poor.
|
| Bored people playing the only titillating game available to
| them.
|
| It's not lost on me these folks are generally of the age to
| have lacked the variety of multimedia we have now. Raised on
| tales grounded in literal global conquest and missionaries of
| their culture, chasing "forever life" through family tree
| taxonomy, enlisting their kids as "skins" in the battle to
| maintain order as they see it.
|
| Of course ideas that challenge their poetic vision are
| illiberal nonsense.
| polskibus wrote:
| Is there a link between proliferation of smartphones with games
| and lower violence? Most people are never bored these days
| because they escape to their smartphones.
| mapcars wrote:
| atty wrote:
| I am fully capable of recognizing the complexity of the world
| around me and still feeling bored once in awhile.
| tehbeard wrote:
| > If one understands even a little bit of how unimaginably
| complex, fantastic and incredible is that I exist
|
| That sounds incredibly narcissistic... The universe doesn't
| give a single shit that a lump of carbon is doing some weird
| chemistry on a rock along side other carbon lumps.
|
| > Boredom is just a sign of undeveloped human
|
| Boredom is a sign of an impedance mismatch, a lack of stimulus
| or novelty.
| cosmojg wrote:
| ...until you've done it a million times. Don't forget that
| we're talking about emotions here; they needn't be rational.
| dpeck wrote:
| Perhaps this is why there is all the anecdotal evidence of people
| being asses to one another, and especially to "low status" retail
| workers and clerks over the last 2 years.
|
| (economic/influence based status here, of course all people
| should be given the same amount of default respect regardless of
| occupation or income level, but real life seldom plays out that
| way)
| pddpro wrote:
| I mean, the entire premise of Squid Games is just this.
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