[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Career change for elderly UK ex-convict?
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Ask HN: Career change for elderly UK ex-convict?
I'm looking to get back into an IT career but I have lots of
serious impediments. I'd like to ask HN readers for their views on
my hopeless(?) situation. Am an ex-solicitor. I got out of UK jail
a couple of years ago, I did some whitecollar stuff and I have a
permanently un-unspent conviction for money-laundering. I'm over 60
with law & a science degree plus several post-grad qualifications.
I'm currently doing a masters in data science for interest. I used
to be a programmer back in the 80s and keep up with the topic
(Erlang, OCaml, F#, Python Golang etc). I'll never pass jobs with
DBS checks due to convictions. plus I guess I'll never get a job
coding due to ageism (I'd wondered about COBOL but banks and
government wouldn't take me), and I dont fancy doing all the BS
prep needed for interviews anyway. But I like stats ML and data so
I'd love to try for that. But the age and convictions are a serious
problems. I don't imagine anyone on HN has anyone with my
collection of problems but does anyone have any suggestions that
might help?
Author : throwaway301010
Score : 260 points
Date : 2022-01-12 10:42 UTC (12 hours ago)
| alejolp wrote:
| I worked fro the UK to the US. Did not have to do any DBS.
|
| The most hassle has been taxes and HMRC.
| tootie wrote:
| Become a product expert. Salesforce admins are in huge demand.
| SAP is another.
| shmatt wrote:
| You write most importantly about ageism and then by the way about
| "dont fancy doing all the BS prep needed for interviews anyway"
|
| I've worked with plenty of non management engineers in your age
| group in corporate America. Absolutely none of them got their job
| by trying to skip what the rest of us have to do to interview.
| There's your problem
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Pointless tech interviews are a well rehearsed topic on HN and
| I referred to that. I don't mind prepping for interviews but
| not spending 6 months doing leetcode exercises about weird
| trees & stuff I'll never implement.
| jjgreen wrote:
| Are you in reach of London? If so, look at start-ups in London,
| there's a lot of demand for experienced devs, a _lot_ , and while
| you might find ageism in some of them, in many others being an
| outlier or oddball is a positive advantage, really depends on the
| culture of the particular place. I speak as an old-git senior dev
| working in start-ups in London (and really rather enjoying it).
| EveYoung wrote:
| I fully agree, I don't think many London companies can afford
| to reject good candidates only because of age. Recently, I had
| the exact opposite experience, where an older candidate turned
| down an offer because they didn't want to report to a
| significantly younger manager.
| mellavora wrote:
| Doesn't Techstars have a program which specifically trains people
| to code while they are still in jail, and then helps them find
| work afterwards?
|
| You could get in touch with the people who run that program, they
| could certainly provide leads.
|
| Which is a great idea; because by giving someone a viable non-
| criminal way to make a living, they are under much less pressure
| to resort to non-legally sanctioned employment after release,
| i.e. after they have PAID their debt to society (assuming that
| they were actually guilty, and guilty of something which would
| incur a debt to society... neither of which is necessarily true
| for any given prisoner).
| arzel wrote:
| What are your contact details? We are hiring.
| aliswe wrote:
| Can you email me? Check my profile and add an "a" between the
| dots in my email. I don't have a big gig right now but can tell
| you more and present myself.
| kidgorgeous wrote:
| judgemehiring wrote:
| I am the founder & CEO of Judge.me and we're hiring senior
| software engineers.
|
| No issue with your background as long as it has nothing violent
| in it.
|
| Please see careers.judge.me if interested in working for us.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Hi are you Peter-jan or Linh?
| the-dude wrote:
| I think it US centric, but with the recent remote trend, you'll
| never know :
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14911467 ( Launch HN:
| 70MillionJobs (YC S17) - Job board for people with criminal
| records )
|
| In NL, banks have been expanding their anti-fraud division for
| years, maybe this would be a good fit?
| sol_invictus wrote:
| Banks won't touch this guy with a ten-foot pole. I'm not saying
| it's right at all, but big banks are among the lowest of low in
| terms of ethics and integrity.
| hardlianotion wrote:
| No problems with age. Hope to be hiring fairly soon -
| optimisation and statistics - happy to chat.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > I guess I'll never get a job coding due to ageism
|
| I wouldn't assume that. Demand for coders with experience is
| through the roof at the moment, and from what I can tell the
| ageism issue is less severe in the UK than it is in the US.
|
| I can see your conviction being an issue for data science jobs as
| such a job inherently requires trusting you to have access to the
| data. But perhaps you could find a job that's working on public
| datasets? Perhaps it would be worth considering trying to find a
| government / civil service job? They will have lots of public
| data, and probably have good non-discrimination policies too.
| shubb wrote:
| My experience of UK government and government contractor jobs
| is that they follow a recruitment standard where they are much
| more likely to check convictions. Many need some low level
| security clearance too which would be a problem.
|
| On the other hand for more generic startup jobs in the UK, you
| might not even be asked about criminal history except "so what
| is this period on your CV", and they are much less likely to
| care as long as you tell a good story about why it won't happen
| again.
|
| I'd lean towards smaller companies as far from government and
| finance as possible...
| mkdirp wrote:
| > > I guess I'll never get a job coding due to ageism
|
| > I wouldn't assume that.
|
| I can't add a lot to this discussion, but my colleague, who is
| in his 50s, got hired around the same time as me here in the
| UK.
| ir35 wrote:
| The pandemic has worked in your favour. I've got a >PS500/day
| contract job at the moment with no background check, never met,
| they don't know my age.
|
| Start your own company (<PS20 registration fee) then find outside
| IR35 contracts via LinkedIn recruiters: find a role that uses the
| intersection of your skills + experience -- i.e: a data science
| contract with a law-adjacent firm. Very quick and easy, if you
| have skills then you'd have a job before the week is out.
|
| Don't reject yourself before anyone else has the chance to: the
| bar for these jobs is very, very low.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| >the bar for these jobs is very, very low. ideal :)
| AlexMuir wrote:
| Hi, interesting post. I don't think ageism is an issue - if you
| can get work done (and show it), you'll be hired. I'd suggest
| diving into a problem that interests you. I'm playing around with
| Companies House and Land Registry data at the moment. That's
| going to be an area you are well familiar with. Perhaps get in
| touch with some of the people working on OpenData stuff - Anna
| Powell-Smith might know someone who needs a data wrangler -
| https://twitter.com/darkgreener
|
| I have a friend in a somewhat similar position - a highly
| educated, disbarred UK lawyer who did few years in prison. Drop
| me an email if you want me to put you in touch - me@alexmuir.com
| throway453sde wrote:
| When it comes to ageism Work From Home certainly helps. All
| interviews are online and i wear wig during interviews and
| thankfully my skin is not wrinkled so much. Also with the current
| progress in AI i am betting on wrinkle free video masks softwares
| in the near future. I will never go back to full time office
| jobs.
| 238475235243 wrote:
| Start a Ltd company and use that to find work on Upwork.
| [deleted]
| blunte wrote:
| One of my clients did 10 years for two charges which actually
| weren't true (don't mess with Texas, or at least not the people
| who help get officials elected!)
|
| What we found was that many people do not care if you've been in
| prison, especially if you almost use that as a badge of honor. If
| you try to suppress it, it is used as a negative. Sure there will
| be people who will judge any ex-con immediately and not want to
| work with them, but there are also people who will judge any
| group (women, minorities, etc.).
|
| So the prison time can be used to your advantage with many
| audiences. Resilience. Social pennance. Triumph over injustice.
| Whatever. Also, EVERY human worth working with understands that
| we all make mistakes. Some of them just cost us a lot more...
|
| Most jobs are found by networking, regardless of the industry or
| skillset. So the biggest question is, what would you really like
| to do? I personally would argue against software development,
| just because I wish I had chosen something else in my life; but
| instead it has been the career that locks me in because it makes
| more money than other undeveloped skills I might have had.
|
| This might be a strange suggestion, but perhaps there's something
| about your mistake you made some time ago which you learned from,
| and which you can use to provide a value to clients. Not saying
| this is the case (really), but if you were intentionally trying
| to shuffle money illegally and got caught, maybe you have advice
| for other people who are doing things that might get them in
| trouble. Especially with your technical interest, you might be
| able to help them avoid doing something stupid or even steer them
| away from trying. Or maybe you know better how to help them do it
| without getting caught. I'm not judging here, because some of the
| biggest global banks have made fortunes intentionally laundering
| money. I'm not aware of any of them being in jail...
|
| More specifically, especially at your age, I would try to
| discover you passion. Then go with that. Yes we need money to
| live, but you can also move to cheaper places (and network/work
| via the internet).
| robocat wrote:
| > I would try to discover you passion. Then go with that.
|
| Easy to say, hard to do. I liked this idea:
|
| """
|
| One approach I recommend for uncovering desires involves taking
| the time to listen to the most deeply fulfilling experiences of
| your colleagues' (or partners', or friends', or classmates')
| lives, and sharing your own with them. The more we understand
| one another's stories of meaningful achievement, the more
| effectively we understand how to work with each other: what
| moves and motivates others, what gives them satisfaction in
| their work. It seems simple, but nobody does it. Ask yourself:
| How many people do you work with who could name even one of
| your most meaningful achievements and explain why it was so
| meaningful to you?
|
| A motivational drive is a specific and enduring behavioral
| energy that has oriented you throughout your life to achieve a
| distinct pattern of results. You may be fundamentally
| motivated, for instance, to bring control, to evoke
| recognition, or to overcome obstacles. Because most of us have
| never thought seriously about the nature of our motivation, we
| lack the language to be able to describe our core motivational
| drives with much precision. This exercise gives us that
| ability. Core motivational drives are enduring, irresistible,
| and insatiable. They are probably explanatory of much of your
| behavior since the time you were a child. Think of them as your
| motivational energy--the reason you consistently gravitate
| toward certain types of projects (team versus individual, goal-
| oriented versus ideation) and activities (sports, arts,
| theater, forms of fitness) and not others. There are patterns
| in your motivation. If you can put your finger on what
| specifically they are, then you will have taken a major step
| toward understanding your thick desires.
|
| The best way to uncover the patterns is by sharing stories.
| Stories about times in your life when you took an action that
| ended up being deeply fulfilling. Today it's one of the first
| questions that I ask in any job interview because it helps cut
| through the thin stuff and goes straight to the essence of the
| person. "Tell me about a time in your life when you did
| something well and it brought you a sense of fulfillment," I
| ask. I have seen this simple question transform interactions
| between individuals and entire communities. When stories are
| shared between two people who know how to listen well, the
| experience transports both the storyteller and the listener to
| a time when desire led to extraordinarily fulfillment. That's
| why sharing those stories is a joyful experience. A Fulfillment
| Story, as I call it, has three essential elements:
|
| 1 It's an action. You took some concrete action and you were
| the main protagonist, as opposed to passively taking in an
| experience. As life-changing as a Springsteen concert at the
| Stone Pony might have been for you, it's not a Fulfillment
| Story. It might be for Bruce, but not for you. Dedicating
| yourself to learning everything about an artist and their work,
| on the other hand, could be.
|
| 2 You believe you did well. You did it with excellence, you did
| it well--by your own estimation, and nobody else's. You are
| looking for an achievement that matters to you. If you grilled
| what you think is a perfect rib-eye steak the other night, then
| you did something well and achieved something. Don't worry
| about how big or small the achievement might seem to anyone
| else.
|
| 3 It brought you a sense of fulfillment. Your action brought
| you a deep sense of fulfillment, maybe even joy. Not the
| fleeting, temporary kind, like an endorphin rush. Fulfillment:
| you woke up the next morning and felt a sense of satisfaction
| about it. You still do. Just thinking about it brings some of
| it back.
|
| Such moments of profound meaning and satisfaction matter. They
| reveal something critical about who you are.
|
| Knowing something about the interior life of a person is
| necessary to understand why they do what they do and what it
| means to them. Fulfillment Stories get at the heart of action
| by looking at it from the inside out. Fulfillment Stories ask,
| "But why did that action mean so much to you?" The question and
| answer kick off a positive mimetic cycle. You tell one of your
| Fulfillment Stories. I listen with empathy to what you are
| telling me and reflect back to you what I heard and saw and
| felt in your story. Then you do the same for me. Empathy
| imitates empathy, heart speaks to heart. Every time I told a
| Fulfillment Story, another rose to the surface. As I dove
| deeper into my past, I uncovered stories I hadn't thought about
| in a long time. Not only that--I hadn't even recognized them as
| stories of fulfilling action at the time.
|
| Most people are rarely, if ever, asked to tell the stories of
| their deeply fulfilling achievements.
|
| """
|
| Excerpt from the book Wanting by Luke Burgis. I bought it
| because the book's topic was "Human desire is mimetic - we
| imitate what other people want", which is a very powerful idea.
|
| Unfortunately I felt the book was trashy American self help
| author ego stroking, but the section above stood out to me.
| akamaka wrote:
| Cryptocurrency startups!
|
| Many of the company founders in this sector are skeptical of the
| current system of financial regulation. Tell them about your
| conviction up front. I'd bet many of them would be fascinated to
| hear your story.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| The smaller the organization, the more leeway they have to decide
| on cases like yours. Also, the less attached they are likely to
| be to the idea of hiring a 21-year old who will be more easily
| intimidated by their first boss, etc. Consider inquiring with
| smaller firms who need IT help. They value the independence of an
| older coder more, since there is not a large IT team (you might
| be alone), and they have less bureaucracy. Obviously, in certain
| industries there will be laws regarding who gets access to data
| that they don't have the ability to change, but in manufacturing
| for instance, or retail, this is unlikely the case.
| ellen364 wrote:
| Lots of good advice in this thread. One thing I didn't see anyone
| mention is how to explain the gap in your CV. Anecdotally, hiring
| committees are often sceptical about career gaps. The post says
| you got out of prison a couple of years ago. That's recent enough
| that you probably can't drop it off the end. (As people tend do
| for jobs that were decades ago.)
|
| I can think of two broad options.
|
| (1) Leave the gap as a gap. Accept that some companies will
| filter you out and many will ask about the gap at interview. You
| could prepare a good way to explain when asked and the story
| might do you favours. But springing a big surprise in an
| interview can go poorly.
|
| (2) Include prison as an entry in your CV. Solves the gap problem
| and the "springing a surprise at interview" problem. Probably
| increases the "getting filtered out" problem, maybe by a lot. But
| it might also help you quickly discover which companies are a
| good fit.
|
| Best of luck.
| dorkwood wrote:
| Are gaps really that much of an issue? What about freelancers,
| for example? Are they filtered out?
| jimmyed wrote:
| Go to India and work as a contractor. You'll be considered a huge
| deal due to your age and they won't know anything about your
| convictions.
| samuel wrote:
| Probably not what you want, but webdev skills are more marketable
| for freelancing, which seems your better chance of avoiding deep
| scrutiny.
|
| Best of luck.
| zepolen wrote:
| Ironic that the easily available jobs for you would be illegal
| underground ones.
| hunglee2 wrote:
| Try Timpsons - the cobblers.
|
| They have a standing policy that 10% of their employee base must
| come from the formerly incarcerated. Most of these workers will
| be working in the shops, actually repairing the shoes, but I
| think the policy is across the business for roles in head office
| should be part of this commitment
|
| I think with your legal skills you have a shot at the legal
| department, with programming definitely a shot in IT department.
|
| Check out the careers page - one front page, it mentions ex-
| offenders. Give it a shot. Also, I've reached out to James
| Timpson, to see if he knows of any other UK employers who have
| similar commitments. Good luck!
|
| https://www.timpson.co.uk/about/careers-at-timpson
| connordoner wrote:
| I absolutely second this! Timpsons are a brilliant employer.
| sol_invictus wrote:
| I would set up my own shop under a limited company and try to
| land programming gigs. You can sidestep most personal checks that
| way.
| s_dev wrote:
| Many convicted white collar criminals are barred from being a
| director of any company. Using a company for money laundering
| would be a good basic example.
| sol_invictus wrote:
| theres various ways of going around it, which I might
| consider in OP's shoes
| s_dev wrote:
| >theres various ways of going around it
|
| This kind of thinking is what got him in to this position
| in first place. There's a reason convicted money launderers
| shouldn't be allowed to run companies.
| [deleted]
| Nextgrid wrote:
| In my experience most contracts require you to confirm that the
| director and/or representative doesn't have any unspent
| convictions. It's of course up to him whether he wants to lie
| and deal with potential consequences. In practice there are
| very little checks though.
| oakesm9 wrote:
| I'm a freelancer/contracter in the UK working through my own
| limited company. Most of the time I try to use my own
| contract, but if clients insist on using their own, I will
| sometimes use them.
|
| I've gone through a few of those where the client supplied
| the contract and only two out of maybe a dozen had any caluse
| related to convictions (from a quick search of them).
|
| One was a clause about people working on the project being:
|
| > fit and proper persons for the tasks assigned to them, and
| in particular have no unspent criminal convictions for any
| offence involving dishonesty or computer crime
|
| Another had a clause about terminating the contract early if
| the contractor is:
|
| > being convicted of any criminal offence other than a minor
| driving offence under the Road Traffic Acts
|
| None of the others I looked at had anything else like that. I
| don't think any convictions would be a major barrier for OP
| if they are working with typical private sector companies. As
| other have said, it's likely any public sector work or
| specific industires such as education, defenece, or finance
| might have more checks in place.
| memossy wrote:
| You should go web3.
|
| There are incredibly few lawyers who know anything about crypto
| and huge demand.
|
| You can also join DAOs etc and earn significant amounts of money
| for your effort versus who you are.
|
| If you want to do web3 code go to https://buildspace.so/ and
| you'll be in in a few months max.
|
| I'm happy to have a chat about some of our web3 stuff too,
| semantic [at] gmail
| lloydjones wrote:
| You don't even need to mention this stuff, and if you're not an
| employee I think the chances of being compelled to divulge it are
| low. Especially if you're freelancing.
|
| Secondly, if you are an employee, I think you can develop a good
| narrative to explain where you came from, where you are today,
| and how you've changed (etc), and how serious you are about
| putting it behind you.
|
| You could even suggest some initial 'concessions' like a longer
| probation period for you, to prove your commitment and ally their
| potential concerns.
| ROTMetro wrote:
| Older recently released USA ex con here. I recently gave up
| finding a job and am trying to start my own business. At the
| halfway house the only job I could get was at a recycling plant
| (aka sorting garbage) and came up with a idea for really simple
| machine recognition that would eliminate that manual process and
| maybe even allow for powerful applications in the larger world. I
| have simpler short term projects to hopefully make money, but
| having a larger 'mission' helps me keep going on the bad days.
| Keep your head up and stay strong brother! I see you.
| numerik_meister wrote:
| Random idea, have you tried applying at a university? Sometimes
| big research groups have additional employees (not Ph.ds or
| postdocs) who just assist in software development. Due to the low
| salaries they are always desperate for hiring. Also there are a
| lot of older employees in the IT departments at universities, so
| maybe ageism would be less of an issue. Not sure how they deal
| with ex-convicts.
| milliams wrote:
| We post these kinds of jobs on the Society of Research Software
| Engineering website at https://society-
| rse.org/careers/vacancies/
|
| I can't speak for how any of their HR departments would treat
| your case though.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Great resource - thanks very much - I was looking at find
| just this type of thing, also I found https://www.jobs.ac.uk/
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Unis are more open to inclusive hiring from what I hear so that
| may be worth exploring, but they also have safeguarding issues
| as they have young people there - though as a money launderer
| not a kiddy-fiddler I'm not sure how worried they be, unless
| they'd worry about moral corruption!
| hogrider wrote:
| On the other hand, in academia you are nuch more likely to
| find the moral relativistic nihilists that wouldn't care a
| past white collar crime conviction.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Most nihilist would be likely to say "stuff it, have the
| job, I don't care, it's all pointless."
| unixhero wrote:
| If any humor any allowed here, a manager of small would company
| would probably behave like this https://youtu.be/OYEMcX8dj5M
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Well that was painful to watch!
| tpoacher wrote:
| Sorry to hear about your situation. It really sucks.
|
| I don't have a specific answer to your question, but a couple of
| stray thoughts:
|
| 1. You could attempt to find an open source project of interest
| to you, and start contributing, make yourself part of the
| community, make some friends so to speak. If/when you later
| confide your secret, you're already known and proven yourself to
| the community, and will probably be received in a much more
| positive light.
|
| Not sure where that leads you, but a network is always useful.
| Maybe you can raise money and get paid to maintain that software.
| Maybe your community will endorse you to your new employers.
|
| 2. You are more likely to be employed in projects that involve
| the penal system, in which case your handicap turns itself on its
| head, and becomes "insider experience". I've seen many startups
| and charities relating to this. Perhaps there's an ML project out
| there in this topic that would greatly benefit from your insight.
| talolard wrote:
| Keeping with the theme of insider experience, you might want to
| reach out for companies doing auditing, fraud detection etc. A
| domain expert who knows ML is a hot find
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Yes, penal system rehabilitation projects is good suggestion.
| People do that, and it may be possible to do a UK cons-to-
| coders ML project (there was one in the US). I've seen people
| on HN cast doubts on OS projects as a portfolio approach but
| it's worth contemplating.
| opless wrote:
| I'd say forget about getting "a job" and write your own apps, or
| do consultancy work where clients engage your company - not you.
|
| Though I'd check about you being able to be a company director.
| joshvm wrote:
| The law is a little vague. It says that someone convicted of
| money laundering _may be disqualified for acting as a company
| director_ (ish). I assume that would be part of sentencing, or
| it may be a decision made by Companies House (or whoever vets
| that). Certainly ex-prisoners can start business in general.
|
| A bigger issue may be things that require credit checks, like
| business loans, bank accounts, insurance, etc.
|
| Some good advice here: https://unlock.org.uk/advice/things-
| think-becoming-self-empl...
| opless wrote:
| That indeed is a good link.
|
| If you're setting yourself up in a consultancy, you don't
| usually need start up capital and hence no loans required.
|
| Bank accounts and insurance are a requirement however!
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| You'd only be disbarred from being a company director if the
| court ordered it or if Companies House applied to the court
| to disbar you. Max 15 years disbarment.
| robinduckett wrote:
| I've been a contractor in the UK for a good few years, and never
| had to have a DBS check until I got a job that was primarily
| fixated in the finance industry. This includes when I have
| previously worked for a few different e-commerce sector clients.
| Data science is particularly used in Marketing companies, and I
| doubt they'll care about your previous convictions.
| _wldu wrote:
| Large corporate and government jobs are probably not available to
| you now. But, you can work for yourself as a consultant or
| contractor. There are pros and cons to being self-employed. Many
| people find it freeing, but maybe a bit less stable.
|
| Criminal convictions just limit your job options. They are not a
| life sentence. If you have paid your debt to society and follow
| the law now, you can still have a great life. And, I hope you do.
|
| _Edit: I would also encourage you to never lie if asked about
| the conviction. If you lie, people will know and they won 't
| trust you. Never lie about it._
| christophilus wrote:
| Record: I'm not hiring now, but if I was, I wouldn't necessarily
| hold any of this against you. Heck, I wouldn't even know about
| it, since we don't do any kind of criminal screening. The main
| concern I'd have is whether or not you can do your job. If I
| _did_ know about your past, I 'd want to be sure that you would
| be clean moving forward. I think (and hope!) you overestimate the
| negative impact on your career.
|
| Ageism: the main problem with hiring older people is that they
| are expensive relative to new grads. The other problem is that
| they are often perceived as being inflexible and lacking desire /
| drive.
|
| Expense: It's a trade-off. Sometimes, you need the expertise, and
| it's worth the extra $$$. Sometimes, not. But in my opinion, it's
| almost always worth paying up (within reason) for experience. I
| tend to err on the side of reverse ageism, which is unfortunate
| for junior engineers who interview with me.
|
| Drive: This perception is a false one, but it is pervasive in HR
| departments from what I've seen. If you can get through HR to the
| actual technical interview phase, I don't think this will hold
| you back, as you're clearly engaged and interested.
| captaincaveman wrote:
| Your right, HR bang on about diversity (a team ran exclusively
| by white women called Sarah), yet are often the first to
| descriminate candidates (unless in current hot list).
| catbuttes wrote:
| Seconding the suggestions that you may be able to turn your
| history into an asset in the right hands. It might be worth
| taking a look at some of the IT suppliers for the prison system.
| Unilink are one I am aware of - they do self serve kiosks that
| are in use in a number of prisons in the UK for stuff like
| canteen orders and visit booking. They look to be recruiting at
| the moment as well, so getting in touch can't hurt!
| https://www.unilink.com/vacancies/
| sigmaprimus wrote:
| I'm confused. You say that you're an ex-solicitor that is over 60
| and served time for some "White Collar Stuff" as well as being
| convicted for money-laundering and you just got out of jail two
| years ago?
|
| What exactly causes someone seemingly so successful to fall down
| so far? Greed? Drugs? Illness?
|
| As far as the age situation goes, depending on how much over 60
| you are...That could mean 80 and I wouldn't normally think that
| but well...but in any case if you are healthy you probably have
| another 10-15 good years ahead of you.
|
| If you are currently working on completing a masters degree for
| interest sake, I assume this means you have a means of support in
| place and are not supporting any dependents.
|
| I would think that looking into charitable organizations may be a
| good fit for someone with your past who is wanting to give back
| to society. I would not be looking for a career as I think
| unfortunately that ship has sailed and possibly sunken after
| crashing into the penitentiary's rocks.
|
| Working or volunteering for a charity might make up for some of
| the "White Collar Stuff" in the grand scale of things (Especially
| if that "stuff" resulted in putting Widows and Orphans into the
| Poorhouse/Workhouse).
| kerneloftruth wrote:
| Here, you're supposed to see convicts solely as victims. I
| noticed, too, that he's specific about courses he's taking, but
| vague about the crimes -- and detect no remorse whatsoever.
|
| What he does describe sounds like he does indeed want to work,
| and I hope he finds an employer, somewhere.
| sigmaprimus wrote:
| I was not trying to be mean or negative. I am aware that HN
| is not the place for such things. My question and comment was
| sincere, normally around now when the bullies pound my
| comment to the bottom of the thread I would rethink it but
| not this time.
| codingdave wrote:
| > unfortunately that ship has sailed and possibly sunken
| after crashing into the penitentiary's rocks.
|
| That is the comment that sounds unjustifiably mean and
| negative. I'm surprised you are doubling down on it.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Oh don't imagine I'm not sorry but HN is not a church
| confessional. I'm looking for ideas to move on, not lectures,
| or tut-tutting, about my poor previous morals.
| bartread wrote:
| I'm hiring software engineers now. I've enquired with our HR team
| as to whether your convictions are likely to disqualify you
| because I've never encountered this situation before.
|
| I'm the CTO at Savanta: https://savanta.com/. My email is
| ${myfirstname}.${mylastname} (all lowercase) at the company's
| domain. My first name is Bart. If you're interested please drop
| me a line and, assuming there's a possibility of us hiring you,
| we can have a chat - either way I will certainly let you know.
|
| Your age is not important and, in fact, may even be an advantage
| for many roles. I've worked with plenty of older people and value
| their experience.
|
| As long as you're based in the UK your precise location is also
| unimportant as our software engineering roles can mostly be fully
| remote.
|
| EDIT: I've heard back from our head of HR. We review all such
| situations on a case by case basis so you're not by default
| barred from employment with us. Money laundering might ring a few
| alarm bells if you were looking for a job in our finance team but
| does not pose any inherent issue with our technology team.
| Therefore, if you are interested in having a conversation, please
| do get in touch. Either way I wish you the best with finding a
| role!
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Thanks so much for that, Bart!
|
| Never met you, but it sounds like you are a decent sort.
|
| In some cases, being an ex-con can actually be an advantage. I
| know quite a few, and some of them are amazingly clever folks
| (some are total dumbasses, too). Seeing what Savanta does, it
| might be a great idea to consider a non-standard (but also
| highly educated, and highly experienced) content expert.
|
| Good luck to everyone.
| [deleted]
| anm89 wrote:
| this really brightened my day.
|
| hope it works out
| nefitty wrote:
| Thanks for inspiring some hope in me Bart.
|
| I think today will be a good day.
| setgree wrote:
| Something I just learned about age discrimination: people over
| 40 are a protected group in the US, but otherwise it's
| perfectly legal [0]:
|
| > The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) forbids age
| discrimination against people who are age 40 or older. It does
| not protect workers under the age of 40, although some states
| have laws that protect younger workers from age discrimination.
| _It is not illegal for an employer or other covered entity to
| favor an older worker over a younger one,_ even if both workers
| are age 40 or older.
|
| So in case anyone was wondering, it's perfectly kosher to say
| that being 60+ "may even be an advantage for many roles"
|
| [0] https://www.eeoc.gov/age-discrimination
| tessierashpool wrote:
| that's good news, but at the same time, both OP and the guy
| you're replying to are based in the UK, where US law does not
| apply.
| enkid wrote:
| Interesting. I think the fact that it's legal to discriminate
| against young people but not against old people says a lot
| about the way our political process is structured.
| allenleein wrote:
| Respect. This is so awesome.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| That's really awesome. So nice to see someone willing to at
| least give a man a shot! Will be in touch.
| Cullinet wrote:
| to avoid hijacking the flow and so you can see this quickly,
| I have put my comment into my profile below my email address
| instead of here.
|
| my partnership was founded with a average age of over 50
| years old and I was the statistical outlier child. I am
| rebuilding in the memory of my dearly departed friends
| colleagues mentors and guides for my adult life essentially.
| I began in business a genuine child talented no doubt
| narrowly but due to a fluke meeting and the intensity of the
| first 90s recession, entered the commercial with 200 plus
| years of multinational boardroom experience to babysit me
| writing code and pontifi..taking out of my rear. nearly 30
| years later the heavens threaten to rain down opportunity for
| the apprehension of which I am breaking down my conceptions
| of being burned out and the false notion that chronic health
| issues mean that I am over, and I am thoroughly embarrassed
| now by the legalese hauteur of my original comment which
| nevertheless is reproduced in my profile verbatim unedited
| for your derision at my pretentiousness. Please forgive me
| for being extremely nervous about the kind of statement I
| have made regarding your question, which is positive, at
| least, for its sins. Surprisingly to me, I didn't consciously
| parse the information you provided about your relative age. I
| can only think that is because I really don't think that age
| is any disadvantage, absolutely the opposite. I have to face
| the facts and also confess that the possibility that I am
| younger than you positively improved my intuitive outlook
| regarding this situation entirely and immediately. If you
| think you could work with people who treat revelations such
| as the one just related, as being crucial business concerns
| for discussion and discovery of the effects, if any, on the
| clarity and impartiality of our work, as well as being
| natively discontented older Brits, ceteris paribus always of
| course, this might be very interesting for us both to pursue.
| Please note my carefully worded caveats in my comment text,
| however. For whatever your future will be, I wish you all the
| very best of fortunes. don't let the Alan Bstards grind you
| down.
|
| edit : the word, "derision", improving "contempt"
| bartread wrote:
| No stress - look forward to hearing from you.
| exdsq wrote:
| Good luck man :)
|
| As a side note, I saw someone recently post about coming out
| of prison from a 7 year stint, and seemed to have been a
| programmer in the 90s. Looked like he managed to get some
| work too!
| wooptoo wrote:
| > As long as you're based in the UK your precise location is
| also unimportant
|
| Is this a legal requirement or is it company policy?
| robin_reala wrote:
| Typically this makes it considerably easier from a financial
| / tax point of view.
| Cullinet wrote:
| I think the point in hand is that the UK isn't a federation
| of independent States. However this isn't quite true, since
| the Welsh Assembly gained influence on certain fields of
| employment and employment circumstances (surrounding
| government sponsored job creation, so there's a Quid Pro Quo
| to benefit the employer as opposed to primary legislative
| differences) and Scotland I only know has sufficiently
| nuanced and complicated variations to have presented
| obstacles to relocate the "Charlotte Square Mafia" of old
| line Edinburgh financial institutions when certain of them
| desired to re-establish in the City of London and float on
| the London Stock Exchange. I am not certain how much the
| watershed 1997 Act homologated matters but I am pretty sure
| that the situation is never allowed to conform to the
| definition of Westminster lawmakers if Hollyrood can ever
| help it. For non Brits, Scottish public finances in terms of
| service to the population are a dream world compared with the
| UK, resulting from extensive historic compensation for the
| Union and latterly, North Sea Oil.
| captaincaveman wrote:
| Criminal record only a problem for the subset of businesses that
| care/check about that sort of thing, which is less than what
| others are saying (25 years experience in UK).
|
| Over 60 and a junior programmer isn't easy, your salary
| expectations are possibly higher and your willingness to grind
| through problems is also probably lower, I know both of those
| would be the case for me, and mean no offence. So yes to be
| honest it will be a bit harder for you, however, its a job
| seekers market at present and with perseverance I don't doubt
| you'll find a job, and without that same grit you'd unlikely to
| last as professional engineer today anyways.
|
| Most companies don't do all that leetcode stuff in UK,
| interviewing is still a pain though.
| gnu8 wrote:
| > willingness to grind through problems is also probably lower
|
| Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying here but I don't think
| this is fair. An older worker should know to put the problem
| down at 5 PM and walk away from it, but that doesn't mean
| they're unwilling to work on a problem they haven't solved
| before.
|
| At least, I hope some day when I'm an elderly ex convict that I
| will still be able and willing to solve new problems.
| xtracto wrote:
| Hey.. ill just say look at kevin mitnick, his history and his
| current company (KnowBe4): he is an exconvict criminal hacker
| that nowadays gives security talks and has this great security
| company.
|
| I'm not in the uk but here in Mexico most finTechs must adhere to
| a though AML regulations. In a past startup, my team had to
| implement an AML system to catch high risk transactions, flag
| them and eventually report them.
|
| Maybe not as a full time employee, but you may be hirable as an
| expert consultant, with strong tech knowledge .
|
| Best of luck!!
| rsyring wrote:
| Look at getting involved in Salesforce. It's a cert driven
| technology and the cert process is actually helpful if you take
| the time to learn. Start with a Salesforce Administrator cert
| (few months to get it) and go from there. In the US, these jobs
| are starting in the $80K range and you can easily find remote and
| part time positions, maybe as a contractor for a smaller company
| where the background check won't come up.
| speedbird wrote:
| Try NICE Actimize and some of their competition. Financial crime
| detection software for financial service organisations. They need
| to read financial regulations from FCA / EU, SEC etc like MIFID 2
| and turn them into pattern detection software. Your data science
| interest would also be very relevant there.
| scotty79 wrote:
| Move to another country. You conviction history probably won't
| follow you there.
| rossdavidh wrote:
| Information flows across borders ever-more easily, so even if
| that were true today (and I'm not so sure about that), it might
| not be tomorrow.
| [deleted]
| bennysomething wrote:
| A friend of mine had a class a drugs possession conviction that
| was unspent at the time he was applying for jobs as a graduate.
| He just lied on the form about criminal records. Small firms
| don't bother with checks. Obviously this doesn't apply to
| financial institutions etc who do check.
|
| He's still employed now and has had a fairly decent career.
| kkjjkgjjgg wrote:
| If I was an employer considering to hire an ex-convict who was
| jailed for fraud, my main worry would be that they would pull
| some stupid shit again. Especially with code there seem to be
| many opportunities (adding backdoors, access to sensitive
| databases...).
|
| Lying in the application process would do little to alleviate
| that worry. Sure the, employer would have to find out first.
| But is it really the first thing an ex-convict looking for a
| job should do?
| Closi wrote:
| > is it really the first thing an ex-convict looking for a
| job should do?
|
| Well the first part of your post describes why that might be
| necessary (i.e. you imply you would be unlikely to hire an
| ex-convict because they might do 'stupid shit', while OP is
| trying to find a job to get his feet back on the ground).
|
| Nobody wants to lie, but sometimes you gotta do what you
| gotta do to sort your life out.
| kkjjkgjjgg wrote:
| Sure if nothing else works, but sorting your life out by
| doing the same thing that landed you in prison to begin
| with really strikes me as a bad idea.
|
| It's maybe sort of a fundamental attitude, either you are
| honest or not.
|
| Also this "I had no other choice" rationale also seems like
| a risk factor for slipping into crime again.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Pragmatically, I'd not be prepared to lie because it is a
| criminal offence, fraud, and I doubt a court would look
| kindly on a repeat offence. But I tend to agree: "you gotta
| do what you gotta do", in my case feed the kids.
| [deleted]
| danielrpa wrote:
| Is finding work for ex-convicts with coding skills a startup
| opportunity? Perhaps doing coding jobs for small businesses?
| crispyambulance wrote:
| I happen to know about job training for incarcerated folks
| through a family member and also working with an adult basic
| education program. At least in the USA, the number of
| incarcerated people who happen to have coding skills of any
| level is going to be small, like very small.
|
| The vast, vast majority of incarcerated people need basic
| skills training to even be able to look for a job. Functional
| illiteracy is high, most have at best a grade-school level of
| reading/writing and math skills. There are many reasons why
| folks end up in jail, typically for each person a multitude of
| things went sideways early in life. One of the most common of
| these is a completely derailed education. It's never too late
| of course, and most people getting out of jail are still in
| their 20's and 30's.
|
| They're hungry for legit work, so yeah, there's enormous
| untapped potential. The organizations working in this space get
| government and private funding but are always on the verge of
| vaporizing. They are, AFAIK, non-profits with very strong
| social-work, basic-education, traditional vo-tech focus
| (because that's what their clients need most).
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| This 100%. Basic literacy & numeracy is stunningly low in UK
| prisons & improving basic education has been shown to improve
| reoffending rates greatly, in policy terms it ought to be a
| no-brainer but as you say the NGOs & charities in this space
| are starved of cash, mental health & addiction charities
| would slash offending rates, - but the government throws
| hundreds of millions of PS at contractors like Serco & G4S
| who can afford to lobby hard & donate to party funds, but who
| squander it.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Seems like the total addressable market would be far too small
| to make for an interesting startup.
| ggeorgovassilis wrote:
| How's your Perl?
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| Can you get work permit for other European countries? There are
| more cultures that have different approach to ex-con than
| evangelicals, I'd try with some of that if you can
| TamDenholm wrote:
| I've been coding for 20 years (UK) and done mainly contracting
| primarily in the private sector and never once had to go through
| any checks. Also in 99% of gigs i've taken, the number 1 factor
| in getting hired is "can you do the job", thats it. While
| obviously the industry skews very young, i've worked with plenty
| techies over 50 that have been hired because they have
| experience, and quite simply, they can do the job.
|
| If you stick to the private sector, the convictions wont even
| come up unless you bring them up and i think it would be rare to
| come up against ageism, and if you do, then simply, you dont want
| to work for those companies anyway.
|
| Talk to some recruiters, tell them your skillset and see what
| they've got, I wouldnt bother mentioning the convictions because
| i personally dont see them as relevant (because whats relevant
| is, can you do the job), and they'll come back with options. If
| they talk about government or bank work, just say you'll pass on
| those and would rather work for a private company. I have the
| same preference purely due to my distaste for paperwork and
| beaurocracy, private companies are easier to deal with.
|
| I suggest trying to reframe your mindset to evidence based,
| rather than assumption based. Right now you're making a lot of
| assumptions that you wont be successful without having any
| evidence of such. You have a lot of valuable skills, go and
| assess the marketplace, in my opinion, you can be successful.
| cloogshicer wrote:
| Great answer, can only confirm this, even for employment, not
| only contracting. Go for it!
| 123pie123 wrote:
| good answer, I would say that ageism is definately reducing in
| the UK
|
| one extra tip would to try and get some experience that you can
| put on your CV. eg do some opensource programming - looks good
| _joel wrote:
| I've been working in the UK for just as long, if not longer,
| I've gone through multiple DBS checks.
| nailer wrote:
| Sure but in what industry? Fintech, or other tech?
| _joel wrote:
| Actually never in fintech! Cloud, broadcasting,
| consultancy, engineering services, pharma and the like.
| zerkten wrote:
| It doesn't matter about industry as much as size and
| maturity of the organisation. There are different types of
| DBS checks listed on https://www.gov.uk/dbs-check-
| applicant-criminal-record and pulling a basic one is the
| default. In any event, I'd get the information that is
| being shown in the DBS check so that I could see what an
| employer may be seeing. That makes it easier to challenge.
|
| That link also mentions the requirements around an ex-
| offender policy that the company needs to have. I'd request
| that if I was declined, to ensure the employer is actually
| following a process. If not, there could be some room for
| negotiation.
|
| Smaller organizations that are not in regulated industries
| will be better bets for the original poster. Finance,
| pharma, healthcare, education etc. are all regulated
| industries and will have to maintain some level of
| compliance. How well they do it will vary, but if you
| aren't flagged initially, you may well be flagged later on.
| This happens all the time. Small FinTech specialises in
| trying to skirt the boundary of compliance at times, so you
| may find that some are laxer than others.
|
| A sweet spot might be software efforts supporting
| manufacturing or marketing. There are a lot of agencies
| that build smaller software for large organisations that
| don't do these in-depth checks and are often
| building/demoing in their own environment before handing
| everything over to the company or providing the hosting so
| that a department can run shadow IT.
| robocat wrote:
| OP will have solicitor on their CV followed by a period of
| unemployment. Also if their name is Googled, it seems likely
| their conviction or disbarment would show up.
|
| I would expect that they need to be honest about the conviction
| when asked. There are a lot of ways to present that as a
| positive. For example, saying that they will be very committed
| to a position because it is so difficult to get a job.
| ethbr0 wrote:
| Great advice and wholly agreed that a recruiter is the way to
| go. I'm more familiar with the US than UK employment market,
| but if things work similarly, this is the obvious path.
|
| 1) Good recruiters will bypass some of the HR confusion
| (misunderstanding team requirements, etc)
|
| 2) You have a valuable set of skills and are looking for a
| specific type of job. Recruiters are better about this than
| blind applying
|
| Furthermore, the "What industry?" question will be an excellent
| opportunity to avoid processes where your conviction is likely
| to impact. People have legitimate reasons for wanting to avoid
| heavily-regulated industries (boring, slow), so it's not an odd
| question.
|
| I would say if you go through recruiters, be aware (in the US
| at least) there are good recruiters (who have a line on
| positions and work hard) and bad recruiters (who are trying to
| bootstrap a rep by "representing" as many people exclusively as
| they can). Be extremely suspicious before signing any
| exclusivity contracts with one.
| ru552 wrote:
| Any suggestions on good recruiters in the US?
| yurishimo wrote:
| I would also be interested to know this. All the recruiters
| I have interfaced with (granted, not many) have been crap.
| wackro wrote:
| Recruiters in the UK are not the same as recruiters in the
| US.
|
| As a contractor in the UK, I've had to deal with them many
| times. The recruiting industry here has a reputation for cut
| throat, scumbag practices. Lying about open job applications,
| cold calling to fish for info on your current role, ghosting
| you after you make an application with them, chronic time
| wasting/giving false hope. These are some of what you can
| expect. There are, of course, good recruiters - more 'human'
| ones. They're rare, but you'll know when you've got one. I
| have some saved in my phone.
|
| If you are firm with them you can avoid them wasting your
| time. But to rely on them is a mistake.
|
| Good luck OP. Also +1 for contracting in private sector
| because the B2B nature of it avoids checks.
|
| Edit: seems like other people have had contracts with clauses
| around prev convictions, so maybe ask for a blank contract
| ahead of time.
| mpeg wrote:
| In finance/fintech and anything related, DBS checks are very
| common in the UK.
|
| FWIW I've been checked by several employers throughout my
| career - and generally none of them warned me beforehand, I
| just got the letter from DBS letting me know they had
| [deleted]
| comprev wrote:
| In NL the background check is very specific. If you've been
| convicted of drink-driving the record won't show up if the
| role is finance related due to the narrow scope.
| ranko wrote:
| I'm pretty sure that they can't do it without your consent
| (and cooperation) - they at least have to verify your
| identity documents (name, address, DOB, etc), get a list of
| your addresses for the last five years, enter your driving
| license number, and probably other information too.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| To be fair, a lot of contracts have a clause to confirm that
| you don't have any unspent convictions. Granted, you can lie
| and indeed it probably will never be discovered but that's
| fraud.
| unixhero wrote:
| I have never seen that clause.
| mostlystatic wrote:
| I just checked 5 contracts I had from around 2015, and only
| one mentioned convictions. Specifically:
|
| > The Supplier warrants:
|
| > that the Consultant has no criminal convictions which would
| reasonably affect the Company's and/or the Client's decision
| to allow the Consultant access to the Location(s), the
| Client's Systems or to provide the Services;
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Having had a conviction I don't want to pick up one for lying
| on my CV. In jail I knew someone convicted for just that,
| though I think it is rare.
| cschep wrote:
| Lying on resumes is so common, how on earth did someone go
| to jail for it?
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| yea, definitely struck me as odd too, most people
| bullshit a bit on CVs so whether there was more to it I
| don't know: TBH you don't usually ask people for details
| of why they're inside - it can get ... problematic.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| > fraud.
|
| Depends on locale. In the UK (IANAL) it wouldn't be _fraud_,
| but would be grounds to terminating the contract. But not
| criminal.
|
| Employer could potentially sue for damages, but there must be
| some damages for that.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Thanks - this is a very good point and looks hopeful for
| the OP. To the OP I suggest to confirm this with a lawyer;
| if it's indeed not criminal and the worst outcome of a lie
| is termination and a civil lawsuit (which requires proving
| damages) it might be worth betting on it.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| The advantage of being an ex-lawyer is I do know this to
| be a criminal offence!
| chrisseaton wrote:
| People describe anything and everything they don't agree
| with as 'fraud'.
| wheels wrote:
| And in Germany, it would be illegal to ask unless it was
| specifically relevant to the job - and courts have
| specifically decided that you can lie if you're asked and
| it's not relevant. The US tends to really overreach on that
| sort of thing, but it's not universal. It may even be that
| picking contracts in the EU would be useful.
| Scarblac wrote:
| > It may even be that picking contracts in the EU would
| be useful.
|
| After Brexit he'd need a work permit for that, and I
| assume convictions are a factor with those.
| jen20 wrote:
| One only needs a work permit if physically in the EU
| country, not working remotely from the UK.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Fraud by false representation is a thing in the UK so I
| suspect that it might depend on the circumstances and the
| seriousness of the case but IANAL.
| adabaed wrote:
| Well, I'm not in your situation, only you know what is the
| "right" thing to do. If you don't feel comfortable working with
| children in their 20s and 30s, you can always try starting a
| business or working as a freelancer.
|
| Here is a good starting point.
| https://www.hostinger.com/tutorials/best-freelance-websites
|
| Keep in mind that these types of websites always keep a relevant
| part of your money. Think of them as a Google Add investment. Try
| to create your own brand and make it clear that you have a
| website where they can contact you in the future.
|
| Best of luck!
| johnspiralnew wrote:
| Setup a Linkedin profile, be open about your conviction it will
| reduce your long term stress once you land a job. Get involved
| answering tech questions on either Linkedin or Stack Exchange....
| this will give your technical prowess authenticity. If you still
| can't get a job consider volunteering as a way to get a
| reference, again be open about your conviction.
| chriotte wrote:
| I did many interviews in my previous workplace, and we never
| cared about age when recruiting. My colleagues were between
| 20-something and up to retirement age (I'm now in my late
| twenties). The most exciting and valuable people I've worked with
| were the latter. The more senior people always brought a ton of
| knowledge to the table and were often able to draw parallels
| between the stuff we were solving now with things they had
| already solved 20 or 30 years ago. I would not worry about your
| age, and your troublesome past adds some spice and a different
| perspective to life, and I'm sure most companies will embrace
| your talent.
|
| Feel free to send me a note on chris * _at** dataespresso *_
| dot** com, and I can share with you some info about my previous
| employer and possibly make an introduction. They have offices all
| over the UK, and I think you'd enjoy working there.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| You can work via an contracting/recruiting agency very likely.
| Many of them dont do background checks and companies assume that
| they do. You probably have skills that would be relevant. You
| would just need to find the right one.
| alexthenotgreat wrote:
| You don't even need to mention this stuff, and if you're not an
| employee I think the chances of being compelled to divulge it are
| low. Especially if you're freelancing.
|
| Secondly, if you are an employee, I think you can develop a good
| narrative to explain where you came from, where you are today,
| and how you've changed (etc), and how serious you are about
| putting it behind you.
|
| You could even suggest some initial 'concessions' like a longer
| probation period for you, to prove your commitment and ally their
| potential concerns.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Good suggestions, especially probation periods.
| atlgator wrote:
| You could try freelance projects on upwork or fiverr. It will
| help fill out your resume and put food on the table while you're
| looking for a longer term position. If you get enough experience
| and/or develop the relationships you could start your own
| contracting company. Target small or medium sized businesses that
| may not check into you as an individual (versus the company).
| sztanko wrote:
| I think your solicitor and money laundering background might be
| valuable in the modern world trying to digitize everything.
|
| - Have a look at LegalTech companies:
| https://www.maddyness.com/uk/2020/10/05/legaltech-12-startup....
| I guess there is a small but existing ecosystem and community in
| those communities and you could get there.
|
| - (Anti) Money laundering is a very hot topic in fintechs, and my
| experience is suggesting it is the most ML and AI intensive
| sector (trying to understand if a given transaction is related to
| money laundering is a non-supervised ML domain), there is a
| decent amount of graph algos involved and also the regulation is
| still quite archaic. I would say if positioned well, someone with
| backgrounds in legal and tech is a very valuable asset for any
| fintech.
|
| I also believe your conviction could be turned into your strong
| asset - you already have a unique and genuine story to tell. If
| you are ok into public speaking, you could get a speaker slot any
| any AML|Legal + tech related conference.
|
| I also believe going informal networking is more efficient then
| going through the formal recruitment process - this is where all
| your unique selling points would turn into disadvantages.
| Recruitment is designed to be scalable and you are an outlier
| there.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Great suggestions & solid advice. Informal networking may work
| well if intergated with a speaker slots (I'm a decent public
| speaker) but I'll need to devise a strategy.
| MrDunham wrote:
| this is a fantastic answer for several reasons and I'm
| commenting because an upvote alone just doesn't do it justice.
|
| > I also believe your conviction could be turned into your
| strong asset - you already have a unique and genuine story to
| tell
|
| I so love this. It reminds me of Frank Abagnale, Jr., whose
| story is told in "Catch me if you can". He went from convicted
| felon to savior of the banking industry and implemented a ton
| of solutions to the very things he exploited.
|
| > you could get a speaker slot any any AML|Legal + tech related
| conference.
|
| this is also a wonderful suggestion that could help you rapidly
| reframe your story.
|
| > I also believe going informal networking is more efficient
| then going through the formal recruitment process
|
| Can confirm this is crucial. I am the son of an executive
| recruiter who placed a _ton_ of CFOs into midsize startups back
| in the dot-com days. When Mom was teaching me how to land jobs
| she suggested only using job boards and the like to get a feel
| for who is hiring and then networking in.
|
| Would be even more important with special circumstances like
| yours. People hire people, not resumes for the most part.
|
| I also know at least one company who specifically hires only
| ex-cons (in construction so this isn't directly relevant to
| you) to help them get on their feet and keep them from repeat
| offending out of desperation.
|
| ----- The rest of this post is wonderful too but I don't have
| much more to add to it.
|
| The nice thing about jobhunting is you only need one person to
| say yes.
|
| Reframing your problem into an asset and thinking about how you
| could uniquely help the industry could set you apart in a
| positive way.
| sztanko wrote:
| Thanks :)
| stickfigure wrote:
| > It reminds me of Frank Abagnale, Jr.
|
| Possibly not the best comparison; from past discussions here
| on HN (and wikipedia), I gather that Abagnale was an
| exaggerator and may have fabricated much of his myth.
|
| That said, I think grandparent comment is right - you have
| some very unique experience that would be of specific value
| to _somebody_. The trick is figuring out who that somebody is
| and then pitching your experience as an asset, not a
| liability. It may be very niche and it may require
| relocating, but it 's going to be more fun than trying to
| hide a big secret.
| justusthane wrote:
| Ironically, Abagnale's biggest con was fabricating the
| stories of his previous supposed cons.
| pengwing wrote:
| Freelance software development and use an AI generated photo of a
| person in their mid 30s.
| gm3dmo wrote:
| > But I like stats ML and data so I'd love to try for that.
|
| Building some reputation on an ML/AI/Data site like Kaggle might
| be helpful to get noticed.
|
| https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/timpson-foundation/ex-offend...
| Timpson's have a very strong reputation for offerening employment
| to marginalized groups. I'm sure they have a back office
| operation that drives the shoe repair and key cutting shops so
| they may be worth investigating.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Timpsons are indeed well known for this and while in open
| prison a number of men went out everyday to work in their
| shops.
| sjg007 wrote:
| In the movies you'd be the guy who gets hired by MI5 to route out
| criminals syndicates etc...
| stevep98 wrote:
| Learn how to write phone apps and sell them on the App Store. You
| can be your own boss.
| darrenwestall wrote:
| I'd hire you - we all make mistakes.
|
| Contact info in my profile if you fancy chatting more.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Awesome! Looked at what you do. Will be in touch. Thanks for
| being generous.
| ed_elliott_asc wrote:
| Unless you want to work in finance/insurance/schools or something
| similar you won't be asked to do a DBS - I've not been asked if I
| have any convictions for any role that wasn't in finance.
|
| There is a massive shortage of people now in data
| (engineering/scientists/etc)
|
| Go contracting, they are much easier to get and once you have a
| couple under your belt it gets much easier.
| buro9 wrote:
| You likely won't be able to get work with any firm that has
| customers in the financial, military, and medical spaces. This
| rules out a lot of sectors common to the UK and major cities. No
| hosting companies, Cloud vendors, service/consulting companies of
| reasonable size, etc.
|
| However there are large industries in the UK that will offer a
| solid job, the ones that spring to mind are academia and the
| charity sector. These industries aren't the top paying, and
| that's exactly why these jobs aren't being fought over.
| Additionally as you'll not come into direct contact with
| vulnerable people or children, DBS checks are unlikely to apply
| and the sector based restrictions like those in the financial
| industry are not present.
|
| The work in these industries also isn't the most challenging for
| coding, the challenge is typically it not being funded well
| enough and having to find cheap and pragmatic solutions you can
| maintain. In the charitable sector you really need to know Drupal
| and PHP... and then a mix of how to glue things together, run IT
| systems, etc. In academia it can be a real mix of work, from IT
| services, through to website and email services, all the way up
| to "PhD student knows what they want to run on a supercomputer
| but doesn't know how to get it to run efficiently on this
| (slightly older) supercomputer".
| dmw_ng wrote:
| > You likely won't be able to get work with any firm that has
| customers in the financial, military, and medical spaces. This
| rules out a lot of sectors common to the UK and major cities.
| No hosting companies, Cloud vendors, service/consulting
| companies of reasonable size, etc.
|
| What is this based on? I've had 2 checks in 19 years of working
| privately, including contracting for 15 of those, many of which
| were outside the UK. Nobody in the chain, not HR, hiring
| managers or recruiters are incentivized to examine a candidate
| deeply once they've been accepted for a role, and for
| contracting HR rarely even enters the picture.
|
| In both cases where a check was carried out, it was for a
| company I could not recommend working for regardless of income.
| One of these resulted in the only time I have needed a
| solicitor to ensure timely payments. From this angle failing
| DBS sounds like it might be a blessing in disguise for OP
| richardwhiuk wrote:
| It's really trivial for an employer to do, and it's required
| by compliance regulations.
| dmw_ng wrote:
| Which regulations and applying to which sectors?
| buro9 wrote:
| FCA Screening for those working in "controlled functions"
| for services providing financial services.
|
| On the strictest interpretation it isn't everyone and
| only applies to a few roles.
|
| However just like other compliance it tends to be applied
| by financial firms in a risk-averse maximal approach
| rather than a minimal approach. So it's not uncommon for
| background checks to be applied to all staff at a company
| or who provide services to such a company.
|
| I don't agree with such maximal interpretation of the
| compliance rules, but this is how it happens and having
| that conversation with HR during interviewing is just
| going to get you excluded.
|
| The original poster likely wants to avoid US travel
| too... given that it will require a visa due to moral
| torpitude.
| robocat wrote:
| > moral torpitude (sic)
|
| https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/turp
| itu...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude
|
| Turpitude: very immoral behaviour; from Latin turpitudo
| (ugliness). Not a word I was familiar with - adding this
| comment for others.
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| US doesn't seem to have access to UK criminal records as
| I've travelled to NY without declaring convictions and
| been OK. No idea if just lucky or there's no data
| sharing.
| tomjohnneill wrote:
| It's very likely organisations in the charity sector will need
| to run DBS checks, even just for looking at back-end
| systems/data.
| throwaway245345 wrote:
| You don't even need to mention this stuff, and if you're not an
| employee I think the chances of being compelled to divulge it are
| low.
|
| Especially if you're freelancing.
|
| Secondly, if you are an employee, I think you can develop a good
| narrative to explain where you came from, where you are today,
| and how you've changed (etc), and how serious you are about
| putting it behind you.
|
| You could even suggest some initial 'concessions' like a longer
| probation period for you, to prove your commitment and ally their
| potential concerns.
| arethuza wrote:
| There seem to be quite a few employers in the UK that encourage
| applications from people with convictions:
|
| https://www.ex-seed.co.uk/recommended-companies.html
|
| Some of them are pretty big (e.g. Tesco) so I'd maybe try
| scanning their job pages and see if any of them have opening for
| entry level data scientists?
| throwaway301010 wrote:
| Good list! Thanks. I'll run through those. As you say, some big
| names.
| anonymousiam wrote:
| The problem is the system. A jail term is supposed to be the full
| "payment" of your "debt to society", but once you have a
| conviction on your record, you are doomed, regardless of whether
| or not you are at risk of recidivism.
|
| https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2015/12/10/former-inmates-sti...
| Cullinet wrote:
| Just adding at the end, I reacted immediately to the matter of
| principle that my company would never take a principled or
| fundamental view of excluding you from consideration from
| employment, and in trying to make it as clear as possible,
| everything else fell from my conscious consideration - for the
| simple reason that you have a very strong fit indeed with the
| requirements that we have for the future. Now I have re read your
| post, please let me try both to play down our commercial
| potential at the same time as bidding you by all means do drop me
| a line. I can't discuss openly what needs to happen in our
| position, but on the face of it, if all goes well then I would
| probably be disappointed if we never found out what the
| possibilities may be. Whatever happens, very best wishes from me.
| xaxaxb wrote:
| Sir, salute your effort. I'm no expert but have you thought about
| freelancing? Also you can start on Twitch if you haven't already.
| You can practice your skills there and meet and connect with
| people.
| taubek wrote:
| Just one thing, regarding your age: your age brings wisdom to the
| table. Things that we have seen, encountered, overcome can never
| be replaced or thought by any kind of diploma. Most of my
| coworkers are 15-20 years younger than me. I'm the oldest one in
| the company and I don't feel discriminated.
| kingcharles wrote:
| As a coder who just got out of jail himself, I was never asked
| for a background check for any development job in the UK. Maybe
| if you were going for a military/intelligence contractor
| position, but otherwise, I've never even heard of a British firm
| doing a criminal background check.
|
| Just my 2 pennies.
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