[HN Gopher] Invasive Bradford (Callery) pear tree is banned in P...
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Invasive Bradford (Callery) pear tree is banned in Pennsylvania
Author : elliekelly
Score : 49 points
Date : 2022-01-10 19:01 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.birdsoutsidemywindow.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.birdsoutsidemywindow.org)
| nneonneo wrote:
| > It took a while to realize that different sterile cultivars
| within the reach of the same pollinating insect could cross
| pollinate and produce fertile fruit.
|
| "Life, uh, finds a way."
| dls2016 wrote:
| I have one in my yard from previous owners, maybe this is the
| kick I need to cut it down. Maybe replace it with a native
| mulberry or pawpaw. Still have a few Trees of Heaven that were
| covered in spotted lantern flies the last two summers (2021
| moreso). Those jerks destroyed my first grape harvest.
| nsp wrote:
| Be careful with mulberries, I had one in my last place (not
| sure if it was native), and it dropped 10lbs+ of incredibly
| soft berries, so effectively black dye into my back yard daily
| for several months a year
| dls2016 wrote:
| Sounds great!
| 83 wrote:
| I have one across the street. Slightly less great when the
| birds eat the berries and your deck, house, sidewalk, and
| cars are covered in splotches of purple dye all the time.
| jefflombardjr wrote:
| The bugs are not at fault here. The people who created the
| environment for them to thrive are.
|
| Edit After Downvote: I get it - They were a major nuisance to
| you. Lanternflys weren't a one time thing. This has happened
| before - remember stink bugs? This has happened many times and
| it is going to get worse. Please don't shoot the messenger.
| dls2016 wrote:
| Stink bugs, gypsy moths, Japanese beetles... I get it. The
| wave of SLF hit Central PA right as my first grape vines were
| maturing.
|
| But Tree of Heaven is also an invasive species, native to
| China like the SLF; it's their favorite host plant. The SLF
| invasion can be very "spotty". If I eliminate the stand of
| Tree of Heaven from my yard, the SLF will probably go
| elsewhere. I don't use pesticides or herbicides of any
| sort... just some copper fungicide for my fruit trees.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| > The bugs are not at fault here. The people who created the
| environment for them to thrive are.
|
| And when species like this thrive in the native environment?
| pvaldes wrote:
| Totally different trees. Callery pears are used because it is a
| 'fastigiate' tree. Is narrow and tall, but not much tall.
| Perfect for sidewalks. And is a tree for four seasons with
| splendid flowering and fall color.
|
| Many fastigiate trees split in this way all the time because
| the branching happens in very acute angles and this creates a
| weak point.
|
| Asimina and mulberry aren't good for sidewalks. Asimina is too
| short, parse and wide and spreads from the root. Mulberry is a
| tall tree, too big and too wide. Both made the soil slippery
| and a mess by fruits and leaves.
|
| A possible replacement could be young american hornbeam that
| can be pruned narrow for a long time before it opens wide.
| there is not a lot of candidates for a narrow sidewalk.
| Landscapers deal with this problems and try to fix it all the
| time.
| mattkrause wrote:
| A post yesterday suggested "reusing" the Callery rootstock by
| grafting something native/tasty/otherwise better onto it. Might
| be a fun option if if it's not too big already.
|
| https://www.thefruitexplorers.com/blog/2021/03/29/defenseofb...
| jefflombardjr wrote:
| When I see this article and the state announcement, I think of
| the Robert Pirsig Quote: "If a revolution destroys a systematic
| government, but the systematic patterns of thought that produced
| that government are left intact, then those patterns will repeat
| themselves in the succeeding government. There's so much talk
| about the system. And so little understanding."
|
| As someone originally from Pennsylvania - PA seems especially
| excited about invasive species. The spotted lantern fly was a big
| nuisance. Everyone talked about it. The spotted lantern fly and
| even this pear tree are not the enemy.
|
| Invasive species thrive in ecosystems that we create. You don't
| want spotted lantern flys? You don't want thorny pear trees?
| Maybe ask who is defining the term "invasive species" and why
| they are defining them as such? Anyone thinking about cutting
| down your pear tree. Read "Beyond the War on Invasive Species: A
| Permaculture Approach to Ecosystem Restoration" [0]
|
| 0: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/25782048-beyond-
| the-w...
| ch4s3 wrote:
| Not a glowing endorsement by someone in the field
| https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2330107179?book_show_a...
| jefflombardjr wrote:
| "Someone in the field"?
|
| I'm sorry but an anonymous comment on good reads, should not
| hold the same weight as a book that references academic
| papers.
|
| In any case it isn't as black and white as "Invasive = Bad"
| one doesn't need to look far for that evidence.
|
| https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-potential-
| conserva...
|
| https://spartina.org/project_documents/revegetation_program/.
| ..
| ch4s3 wrote:
| I'm not really commenting on the thesis of the book, but
| pointing out what seemed like a valid criticism of the book
| overall. After skimming a few articles on the subject [1]
| it seem like the reviewer is not out of line with
| scientific consensus on the example he points out.
|
| [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&
| as_yl...
| gkop wrote:
| Computer scientists even built a robot to scour Pennsylvania's
| forests for the invasive tree-of-heaven, and poison them:
| https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Considerations-in-robo...
|
| (The author was my theory of computation professor at
| University of Pittsburgh. Dr. Daley (RIP) commuted by Harley-
| Davidson and in his free time served as chairman of the
| regional forest stewardship council.)
| giantg2 wrote:
| In the case of the spotted lantern fly, it's just the cost of
| global trade. It was not intentionally introduced like the
| Bradford pear.
| teruakohatu wrote:
| > Invasive species thrive in ecosystems that we create.
|
| In some cases yes, in other cases they simply out compete local
| species.
|
| My country had managed to keep snakes out, but no doubt if they
| ever took hold here they would thrive in the wild, and harm the
| native bird population like the invasive stoats have. The
| invasive stoats live in the wild, far from people.
| jefflombardjr wrote:
| The book referenced actually provides numbers on this.
| Invasives out competing local species is a rarity according
| to the studies referenced in the book.
|
| Here is another perspective too: https://www.vox.com/down-to-
| earth/22796160/invasive-species-...
| derbOac wrote:
| I've kinda had a similar perspective until buckthorn. Buckthorn
| is essentially eradicating native Big Woods forest,
| transforming forest that comprises an open understory with high
| canopies into dense tangles of buckthorn that choke out
| anything else. It also leads to these boom-bust nitrogen cycles
| that wreak havoc on the soil.
|
| Many of these forests were just fine until buckthorn arrived.
| The problem isn't with buckthorn per se, it's in the
| destruction that it causes on native ecosystems. If the
| buckthorn was just here or there, an addition to the landscape,
| it might be fine, but it's not.
|
| A solution to buckthorn overgrowth can't come soon enough
| because mechanical solutions, while effective, are very
| laborious.
|
| Maybe there's something that could be imported to keep it in
| check (I recall reading buckthorn has some kind of highly
| specialized moth or something that eats it in its native range)
| but regardless of why, it's a problem.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > I've kinda had a similar perspective until buckthorn.
| Buckthorn is essentially eradicating native Big Woods forest,
| transforming forest that comprises an open understory with
| high canopies into dense tangles of buckthorn that choke out
| anything else. It also leads to these boom-bust nitrogen
| cycles that wreak havoc on the soil.
|
| Buckthorn is the devil's plant. IIRC, it's a hedge plant, and
| literally turns a forest into an impassible hedge.
|
| > Maybe there's something that could be imported to keep it
| in check (I recall reading buckthorn has some kind of highly
| specialized moth or something that eats it in its native
| range) but regardless of why, it's a problem.
|
| IIRC, they're close to approving something like that for
| garlic mustard (which kind of does the same thing as
| buckthorn, except on the forest floor, and often gets bad
| after you deal with buckthorn). They've had to do a lot of
| testing to make sure it's _very_ specialized and doesn 't
| cause another invasive pest problem.
| jonnycomputer wrote:
| I am averse to the rhetoric about invasive species, but do
| believe that invasives are, in fact, frequently a real problem,
| not a contrived one. But I think that all the hatred poured on
| the plants/bugs/etc. is misplaced. IMO, the two most important
| things we can do are:
|
| 1. Create fewer disturbed environments. These plants are
| typically those that thrive in disturbed environments. As such,
| they may even be regarded as providing some kind of ecological
| service. Unfortunately, one of the reasons they out-compete
| natives is lack of predation. The Amur Honeysuckle I've been
| systematically removing still have beautiful leaves even in
| early Autumn, untouched by mold or bug.
|
| 2. Prevent the introduction of new species via the commercial
| nursery vector; hard to achieve any kind of ecological
| equilibrium when we are constantly disrupting it.
| SECProto wrote:
| > Invasive species thrive in ecosystems that we create. You
| don't want spotted lantern flys? You don't want thorny pear
| trees?
|
| Non-native species get planted in environments we create (eg
| suburban yards). What makes them invasive is when they spread
| uncontrollably and displace native flora (dramatically reducing
| biodiversity in native ecosystems).
|
| > Maybe ask who is defining the term "invasive species" and why
| they are defining them as such?
|
| Sure, my definition above came from a hobby gardener friend who
| volunteers for a local environmental nonprofit.
|
| > Anyone thinking about cutting down your pear tree. Read
| "Beyond the War on Invasive Species: A Permaculture Approach to
| Ecosystem Restoration" [0]
|
| The reviews on that book are delightfully polarized.
| tablespoon wrote:
| > Invasive species thrive in ecosystems that we create...Anyone
| thinking about cutting down your pear tree. Read "Beyond the
| War on Invasive Species: A Permaculture Approach to Ecosystem
| Restoration" [0]
|
| The problem is they also thrive in (i.e. invade) ecosystems
| that we _didn 't_ create, and destroy or disrupt them.
|
| If these species didn't invade wild ecosystems and stayed put
| in our backyards, then they wouldn't be invasive.
| pvaldes wrote:
| > Invasive species thrive in ecosystems that we create
|
| This is a common misconception
| jefflombardjr wrote:
| I've referenced articles and books in my other comments, and
| you're calling it myth. Care to cite something that supports
| what you claim?
| pvaldes wrote:
| You cite -one- book that maybe says what you want to think
| and looks more opinion than science. You write also a quote
| about politics and there is also that old feeling of "we
| humans are the worst" in the air that can feel justified
| but never solved anything.
|
| I have a PhD in biology and frankly I'm sick of discussing
| this issue each time again and again.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Are you solely focused on plants here? Invasive species can
| also apply to animals. Invasive aquatic species have
| decimate local animals, and we didn't necessarily create
| those environments. There's also invasive plants in these
| aquatic systems as well.
| jefflombardjr wrote:
| Yes thank you for this clarification. Apologies for my
| being imprecise. Most of the reading I have done has been
| related to plants and the use of pesticides to intervene.
|
| https://www.jstor.org/stable/1149643 https://besjournals.
| onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111...
| https://naisma.org/naisma-resources/government-
| relations/the...
| https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-potential-
| conserva...
| epivosism wrote:
| You're acting as if it's not possible to steelman the case
| against invasive species. This is a bit disingenuous.
|
| Imagine we discover an alien planet with no predators. Should
| we allow ecological merging, with reasonable expectation of
| large biodiversity loss?
|
| I'm not an absolutist; there are opposite examples - imagine
| that in the far future Australia were about to finish its
| tectonic journey to touch another continent and we expected new
| connection to result in massive ecological disruptions. Trying
| to prevent such a thing forever would be questionable.
|
| The point is: you have to dig into reasons and outcomes, and
| can't resolve this kind of debate by simply saying "foreign
| bad" or "foreign good".
| jefflombardjr wrote:
| I 100% agree with you. You absolutely "can't resolve this
| kind of debate by simply saying "foreign bad" or "foreign
| good"
|
| Imagine we discover an alien planet with no predators. Should
| we allow ecological merging, with reasonable expectation of
| large biodiversity loss. The problem is, the alien planet
| doesn't have a pesticides industry propped up around saying
| "foreign bad"
|
| But I have no idea, and am not qualified to answer that
| hypothetical.
| Permit wrote:
| > Invasive species thrive in ecosystems that we create.
|
| Is the idea here that invasive species cannot thrive in non-
| human-made environments? That is, environments we didn't
| create?
| jefflombardjr wrote:
| Kind of, the idea is that no species would be invasive if we
| didn't create the ideal place for it to thrive. Invasives
| mostly thrive in disturbed areas and don't actually displace
| natives. The book I referenced goes into way more details,
| but in most cases invasives actually help repair damaged
| ecosystems. They are often pioneer species in the disturbed
| areas.
| fullstop wrote:
| We also imported the first stink bug in the late 90s / early
| 2000s.
| dang wrote:
| Related from yersterday:
|
| _In Defense of Bradford Pear (2021)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29863917 - Jan 2022 (12
| comments)
| fullstop wrote:
| Ha. My parents had a Bradford Pear which split in half due to an
| ice storm, and was replaced with a Cleveland Pear.
| delabay wrote:
| I grew up in midwestern suburbs where Bradfords were planted with
| great enthusiasm. I can see the appeal, they have neat symmetry,
| create no mess besides the leaves and don't get too big. Their
| semen-like flower scent filled the air in the spring, and they
| were drawn and quartered during the summer storms or winter ice.
|
| I have fond memories of watching a massive summer storm from a
| friends bedroom and witnessing the moment his front yard Bradford
| split in half. The same tree would later split in half again
| during the winter. Invasive or not, Bradfords will always hold a
| special place in my heart.
| MengerSponge wrote:
| To say Bradfords "create no mess" is about as true as "clean
| coal"! They create an enormous mess when they inevitably grow
| big and brittle and start dropping half of the tree on your
| lawn/house.
| delabay wrote:
| This does not factor into the decision making process of a
| property developer in the 90-00's. i stand by my original
| phrasing.
| dlbucci wrote:
| I had no idea that these were the plant responsible for so-
| called "Jizz Blossoms". There was always one week in the Fall
| where you'd smell 'em walking to class...
| rayiner wrote:
| > Their semen-like flower scent filled the air in the spring,
|
| They're all over GA Tech campus. We always compared the smell
| to cement though. :D
| SECProto wrote:
| Can we change "Pa" in the title to "Pennsylvania"? As a non-
| american, it was difficult to confirm this (article only used the
| abbreviation, so I had to open a source about 3/4 of the way down
| and read that page's header image to confirm)
| dang wrote:
| Sure. Changed now.
| SECProto wrote:
| Thank you!
| atourgates wrote:
| Another interesting Callery Pear fact (and basically the only one
| I know), is that the "Survivor Tree" at the 9/11 memorial in NYC
| is a Callery Pear:
| https://www.911memorial.org/visit/memorial/survivor-tree
|
| I can't explain why, but it was the most moving part of our time
| there when we finally visited last year. And, the reason I
| haven't been able to bring myself to cut down the Callery that's
| growing on our property, despite my otherwise wholesale
| dedication to removing invasives.
| exposingtruth wrote:
| kube-system wrote:
| I think you misunderstand the regulation. The law doesn't apply
| to the plant itself. It prohibits people from from artificially
| propagating it further.
|
| > Might as well try to ban kudzu while you're at it, lol.
|
| It is already on the list.
|
| https://www.agriculture.pa.gov/Plants_Land_Water/PlantIndust...
| exposingtruth wrote:
| exposingtruth wrote:
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