[HN Gopher] Far-UVC light: A tool to control the spread of airbo...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Far-UVC light: A tool to control the spread of airborne-mediated
       microbial
        
       Author : gjvc
       Score  : 80 points
       Date   : 2022-01-09 15:28 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
        
       | tagoregrtst wrote:
       | "[...] far-UVC light cannot penetrate even the outer (non living)
       | layers of human skin or eye; "
       | 
       | Without reading their previous reference, this doesn't make
       | sense. If it doesn't reach the outer layers, what's blocking the
       | light?
       | 
       | Also, I seriously doubt this wont cause cataracts in the long
       | term.
       | 
       | By Wiki, light < 200 nm is absorbed by O2. The light proposed by
       | the authors is 207< \lambda < 222, so about as energetic as UV
       | can be and not be blocked by the atmosphere. Ill take their word
       | that it cant make it past the layer of dead skin.
       | 
       | But what protects the cornea? Just the very thin layer of tears?
       | 
       | Turn up the HVAC air exchange rate please! There are many other
       | benefits to that.
        
       | causality0 wrote:
       | The very careful wording makes me somewhat suspicious. For
       | example, they focus on the skin safety of far-UVC, but what about
       | long term effects on the cornea?
        
         | geoduck14 wrote:
         | Skin safety was a common concern for conventional UVC, and far-
         | UVC has been anticipated to solve this problem so it is focused
         | here.
         | 
         | They are saying the light waves can't penetrate the fist layer
         | of skin... which presumably includes the first layer of eye-
         | ball skin. If true, there shouldn't be any impact to the cornea
         | over time
        
           | causality0 wrote:
           | All their citations have to do with skin penetration. The one
           | that even mentioned the cornea only did so in reference the
           | amount of UVC reaching the lens. These authors make claims
           | which, while possibly true, are not found in their cited
           | literature. For example, they say far UVC cannot penetrate
           | the tear layer. Their citation doesn't say that. The citation
           | says it's unlikely to damage human cells between 10 and 25
           | micrometers in diameter. The tear layer averages three
           | micrometers in thickness, and it does not contain the
           | absorptive proteins responsible for the shallow flesh
           | penetration depth. This is shoddy science.
           | 
           | Chronic exposure to 240nm light causes keratopathies. 222nm
           | is not 240nm of course but I would demand a better study
           | before I agreed to 40+ hours a week of exposure to far-UVC.
        
           | tranzudao wrote:
           | I think this is an oversimplification. The cornea differs
           | quite a bit from skin histologically. Even if light does stop
           | at the first layer of the cornea - the question is how? The
           | problem typically found with UV wavelengths is opacification
           | of the cornea/lens (cataracts). I have no idea if this is the
           | case for the specific wavelength in the paper - but it's
           | definitely worth more discussion
        
       | potiuper wrote:
       | The article links to
       | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC5552051/ that
       | states "Therefore, penetration of far-UVC ~200-nm light through
       | the cornea to the lens is Predicted to be essentially zero (15)."
       | 15 is titled: "UV absorbance of the human cornea in the 240- to
       | 400-nm range." Further, the main claim is "in microbes that are
       | much smaller in size than human cells [less than 1 mm in
       | diameter, compared to the diameter of typical human cells ranging
       | from about 10-25 mm], [far UVC] is strongly absorbed by the
       | proteins in the cytoplasm of human cells and is drastically
       | attenuated before reaching the human cell nucleus" DNA and other
       | proteins are known to be more affected by 220 nm due to
       | absorption peaks than 254 nm. From
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet_germicidal_irradia... :
       | 'Another potential danger is the UV production of ozone, which
       | can be harmful when inhaled. Lamps designed to release UV and
       | higher frequencies are doped so that any UV light below 254 nm
       | wavelengths will not be released, to minimize ozone production.'
       | The lights are most applicable placed at the at the coils and
       | drain pans of cooling systems as 'forced air systems by design
       | impede line-of-sight, thus creating areas of the environment that
       | will be shaded from the UV light.'
       | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28941399/ concluded 280 nm worked
       | better than 265 nm for water disinfection.
        
         | fsh wrote:
         | All deep UV wavelengths are energetic enough to break chemical
         | bonds and the cross sections have quite non-trivial wavelength
         | dependences. The authors of the article claim that 222 nm has a
         | much shorter absorption length in tissue than 254 nm. This
         | would drastically reduce the intensity that can reach the
         | living cells under the outer layers of the skin.
        
       | 1-6 wrote:
       | Bacteria is a lot more difficult to kill because of the size.
       | This is great for viruses though. I've always wondered about the
       | effectiveness of UVC, humidity, and ozone for the control of
       | COVID.
        
       | gene-h wrote:
       | If this does indeed take off, we may expect the next trend in
       | fashion to be clothing with with stripes and other features that
       | fluoresce under said UVC light.
        
       | bratwurst3000 wrote:
       | Seems like a way to risky idea... gut feeling. And there are
       | problems. First the uv has to reach the virus. If there are
       | shadows its over. Its super hard to ilumate a room perfektly....
       | And may i propose an alternative. Use a hepa filter that changes
       | the air in the room at a rate that would make in impossible to
       | have much virus in the air... also not that easy but imho way
       | safer than UVC
        
         | radu_floricica wrote:
         | How many ways I hate your comment? let me count the ways.
         | 
         | 1. Somebody comes with a potentially awesome idea, you have a
         | gut feeling it's risky, and start looking for confirmations of
         | your gut feeling. Way to #hit on somebody else's initiative.
         | 
         | 2. "The virus" (we all know we aren't talking about
         | tuberculosis here) is airborne, which means it'll float around.
         | If there are shadows it's not "over", it what scenario it would
         | even mean anything for shadows to be game over? An
         | instantaneous flash once?
         | 
         | 3. An alternative is not an argument. Hepa filters work, and I
         | completely agree that we should be using them a lot more but:
         | 
         | 3.1 We aren't using them a lot more, so for some reason they
         | don't fix the problem, so alternate solutions are very welcome
         | 
         | 3.2 There's room for more than one took in a toolkit, for
         | reasons too obvious to get into.
         | 
         | ----------------
         | 
         | Now why am I taking the time to write a comment 5x the length
         | of yours? Because you're merely doing in a somewhat more
         | obvious and inexperienced way what society has been doing
         | for... at least a couple dozen years. Anything new is risky, we
         | should carefully study side effects and only when it's clear
         | there aren't any we're allowed to move forward. This is
         | especially true for medical tech, but it's part of a larger
         | disease that's in the same constellation with NIMBY, regulatory
         | capture and taxi medallions being worth a million.
         | 
         | Covid made it obvious that a lot of emperors didn't wear
         | clothes. We could have had mRNA vaccines quite a bit earlier -
         | and I'm sure the companies involved would have been perfectly
         | happy to make money from them. But no, there had to be a
         | pandemic for regulatory agencies to even consider approving
         | such new tech.
         | 
         | We could have had WFH ten years ago, the tech was here. It took
         | barely weeks for IT departments and worflows to adapt. But no,
         | managers had to negotiate in the strictest terms for even one
         | day a week of WFH, because it's Something That Is Not Done.
         | 
         | And you have a gut feeling that it's risky tech, and I get
         | triggered.
        
           | bratwurst3000 wrote:
           | Dude first I didnt want to trigger you and I apreciate your
           | comment. But isnt saying its a gut feeling somehow
           | communicating it is understood that this isnt the standpoint
           | of a scientist? Thats mostly common sense. So why go into
           | ragemod on sth I did state as something not to take
           | seriously?
           | 
           | But you made a long comment so I will take the time to engage
           | with you.
           | 
           | 1. a potential awesome idea it isnt. Uvc is very strong and
           | every layman should now that it can kill bacteria and viruses
           | ... it can even split chemical bonds. And a it should be
           | known that it creates ozon and could cause cancer. But this
           | is a question of the intensity. And also as the ozon layer
           | filters uvc we dont have much contact. But it is safe to
           | asume that if UVA and UVB are causing cancer so should UVC
           | ... the next lvl of higher energy is X-ray and gamma and
           | beta. Funny stuff
           | 
           | 2. a scenario where to people are talking to each other and
           | the uv cant radiate between them.
           | 
           | 3 I did propose the hepa filter because the problem is the
           | following. You have a rate of virus getting in the air and a
           | rate it is killed by uv light and a rate of it is absorbed by
           | the hepa filter. So imho a room were air can circulate easily
           | there should be a possibility of getting to the rate that the
           | air in the room is changed sufficent quickly to not get
           | anough virus to make people ill. UV light is a good choice
           | and allready used in hospitals and cheap. But when nobody is
           | there. But i still dont think its a good idea to throw high
           | energy radiation onto people just to be safe.
           | 
           | 3.1 they are expensiv and getting to a solution is not what
           | this society is made for
           | 
           | 3.2 i totaly agree with you and every option should be
           | validated.
           | 
           | But do I have the right to an opinion? I dont want to disrupt
           | the discussion about potentialy helping ideas. But when
           | someone stats a doubt it would be nice to answer polite and
           | engaging on the doubt.
           | 
           | And I understand you have a history that made you get
           | triggered but dude ... I am not part of that history. Wish
           | you the best
           | 
           | Edit: ar last i want to state that the succes of a medicine
           | to finish phase three is like 1-5% ... so good that we have
           | those mechanics to prevent harm to society... but this is a
           | old discusion
        
             | radu_floricica wrote:
             | Yeah, should have made it more clear that it's not
             | personal.
             | 
             | But look at the other comments. Look at what zarzavat is
             | saying below. "The burden is on the inventor" - and since
             | he mentions microplastics, I'm allowed to assume he's
             | talking about high levels of certainty and second order
             | effects.
             | 
             | This has never been true in the whole human history. Ever.
             | 
             | This itself, this "being certain every innovation is 100%
             | harmless" is a huge departure from how things have been
             | done, and in itself has a huge risk. I'm not talking about
             | not having shiny new cool stuff, or not having a colony on
             | Mars. I'm talking about apples and apples - about this kind
             | of meta-strategies just plain costing more lives than they
             | save. Google "FDA delenda est", for smarter people than me
             | saying that FDA was _way_ too conservative in the pandemic.
             | 
             | Somebody said below that I'm mistaken about regulatory
             | agencies delaying mRNA before the pandemic. We could of
             | course try and get into the gritty details about what they
             | delayed and why, but just consider one thing: Moderna had
             | their covid vaccine ready in a matter of WEEKS. And it's
             | the same vaccine we're using now. I don't know without
             | googling when Pfizer had their first version, but I imagine
             | it's around the same timeframe. Does this sound like
             | immature technology? When two companies immediately come up
             | with a vaccine when really needed?
             | 
             | What is more likely, that it somehow happened right now for
             | god knows what reason, or that they were both ready to use
             | mRNA but couldn't?
             | 
             | And people keep dying around us. Of Covid, of cancer, of
             | dozen of diseases, not to mention plain old age. This is
             | not about micro-plastics - it's lives vs lives. We have
             | (all around the world) a much more conservative system than
             | we need.
        
               | bratwurst3000 wrote:
               | That I can partly sign. The complexity is way out of
               | controll and it is way to hard to get stuff done with all
               | regulation. But somehow we need regulations. So where is
               | the golden way? If we overregulate people will shout that
               | potentialy beneficial things wont happen.... On the other
               | side if we dont regulate people could be killed with
               | harmfull stuff that could be prevented.
               | 
               | Honestly this question is puzzling me since a while and I
               | cant even state a direction I would take because its to
               | complex for me..... but gut feeling says more
               | transparancy and less complexity could work in designated
               | areas... but ... gut feeling.
               | 
               | And as said I understand your first rage. With the past
               | years we are all on the edge with strangers, me too. And
               | I did somehow mumble a bit ...
               | 
               | Edit: to the vaccine part. It seems easy to develop them.
               | A friend working at a well known biotech lab was even
               | thinking about making one on the fast way for himself.
               | The hard part is to scale the production and have a good
               | one. As far as I remember those two werent the only
               | ones... but those that worked well. But at first I was
               | rly impressed that they got it that fast and then I was
               | even more impressed about the scalling problem. My friend
               | told me about it and it was fascinating.
        
           | cowsandmilk wrote:
           | > there had to be a pandemic for regulatory agencies to even
           | consider approving such new tech.
           | 
           | That's nonsense. There were no regulatory agencies blocking
           | mRNA vaccines. There has been a path towards their approval
           | for a long time. And products such as EndeavorRx, a therapy
           | delivered as a video game, show that FDA is willing to create
           | paths for novel types of therapies in recent years.
        
             | radu_floricica wrote:
             | > There has been a path towards their approval for a long
             | time.
             | 
             | QED
        
           | zarzavat wrote:
           | Between the forever chemicals, microplastics and air
           | pollution we already have quite enough "good ideas" trying to
           | kill us. The burden of proof for any potentially hazardous
           | new invention is on the inventor to prove that it is safe.
           | 
           | People who are dismissive of new ideas based on safety
           | grounds don't need to provide reasoning or evidence or even a
           | coherent argument, they provide a useful function nonetheless
           | by adding friction, forcing inventors to prove that their
           | invention is safe beyond doubt. Since this idea proposes
           | using ionizing radiation around people, a strong dose of
           | scepticism is warranted.
        
         | musingsole wrote:
         | Eh, not techy and sparkly enough. It won't convince the
         | laypeople that they're safe enough if the only palpable aspect
         | of the system is a slight breeze.
        
           | abecedarius wrote:
           | As kind of an echo of radu_floricica's comment upthread:
           | dismissing some X because some other people allegedly will
           | have unreasonable concerns, that's another disease of
           | discourse we get too much of. I wish people would restrain
           | themselves from bringing up that kind of alleged obstacle
           | until after getting to some kind of rough consensus at the
           | object level.
           | 
           | It's like a recipe for "We can't ever improve anything
           | unless, somehow, magically, there's already common knowledge
           | of the fix." The object-level talk is necessary to getting to
           | common knowledge!
        
       | savant_penguin wrote:
       | Wow now this is a convincing result
       | 
       | https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/...
        
       | mackatsol wrote:
       | Ok, I'm convinced. So how / where can I find such a light to use
       | in our apartment lobby (for example)?
        
         | giarc wrote:
         | If you search my username in this thread, you'll see another
         | comment by myself. I can't remember the product name, but there
         | exists a company that makes a UV light system that swaps out
         | for the usual fluorescent light you see in most commercial
         | buildings. I'm not affiliated with the company at all.
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | I'd go for a HEPA air filter instead, some also have UV light
         | inside
        
       | jcims wrote:
       | Pretty interesting video demonstrating UV (not sure what part of
       | the spectrum) killing microbes.
       | 
       | https://youtu.be/sJVtNsezGUI
       | 
       | Really a great channel, some of the best microphotography out
       | there.
        
       | 41b696ef1113 wrote:
       | Is it standard practice for commercial HVAC to have some kind of
       | UV light/ozone/X pathogen killing mechanism somewhere in the
       | ducts? Or would that only be installed on a HEPA style system
       | going for a certified clean environment?
       | 
       | I would naively think that exposing the forced airflow to the
       | treatment would be both simpler and safer than installing a
       | system into every room with people.
        
         | giarc wrote:
         | I work in this field (infection control) and see a lot of
         | products being pushed, especially lately.
         | 
         | One we actually installed in our hospital is a replacement for
         | the regular fluorescent lights you see in every building. It's
         | a direct swap out so pretty easy for any maintenance crew to
         | complete. Instead of directing the UV light into the room, it
         | simply has a duct inside with a fan that directs air to pass by
         | powerful UV lights. The UV light is contained to a small box
         | within the unit and the people around never are exposed. The
         | only drawback is the fan noise, but in hospitals, the
         | background sound is already pretty high. I believe you can
         | schedule the fan to stop overnight. Otherwise it basically
         | continuously circulates the air in the room, always passing
         | over a UV source to kill pathogens that might be in the air.
         | 
         | EDIT - just to clarify, you swap out the whole box, not just
         | the bulb. Like this (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-etoHnNVcOnw/Tu0x
         | Y9sDwCI/AAAAAAAAA3...) but usually in a drop ceiling.
        
         | DannyBee wrote:
         | It's not standard because you can just use filters.
         | 
         | Keep in mind the filters have to be able to filter the dead
         | pathogens anyway (usually same size) or else you are breathing
         | them, which isn't great either. Better than live ones for sure,
         | but not great.
         | 
         | As for UV, you can add it to either residential or commercial
         | easily (some preschools and schools I've visited added them in
         | the past year). It doesn't make sense to install in every room,
         | as you say.
         | 
         | On ozone, see https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/air-cleaners-
         | hvac-filters-an... and the section on ozone.
        
           | cipheredStones wrote:
           | What's the risk from dead pathogens - immune overreaction?
           | 
           | It's a screwball idea, but I wonder if there might actually
           | be health _benefits_ to reliably killing pathogens without
           | filtering them out of the air - sort of like low-dose
           | inactivated-agent vaccines for everything you would have
           | actually been exposed to otherwise.
        
         | JulianMorrison wrote:
         | That would treat the ducted air but it wouldn't treat the air
         | already in the room. And if the air is being recycled, it would
         | still linger for some bounded time before being pumped back
         | through treatment.
         | 
         | Having the UV in the room with the people means it treats every
         | breath immediately.
        
           | DannyBee wrote:
           | It's not quite that simple - the lingering also depends on
           | particle size (ie is it in a droplet, or bare, or ...)
           | 
           | Most places with lots of people also have very high acph -
           | often 20-30 air changes per hour.
        
       | rapjr9 wrote:
       | It does sound as they say "promising" but when do they do the
       | big, decades long double blind, randomized, controlled study of
       | long term effects? What if you have a wound in your skin, does it
       | become cancerous because the live cells are exposed to far UVC
       | light? What does it do to plastics? Do humans get sick easier if
       | they are living in a sterile environment? Does it kill plants?
       | Far UVC is not a natural phenomena on Earth.
        
         | SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
         | As I understand it, the usual design of systems that use UV
         | light to kill viruses do not simply shine it into the room like
         | a ceiling light; rather there's a box with a UV light in it,
         | and a fan to draw air through that box.
        
       | pfyy wrote:
       | I have a question. Does anybody know why we keep our indoor light
       | sources uva / uvb free ? I know that too much UVA/B light seems
       | to be carciogenic, but a small amount of it, especially UVB seems
       | to be beneficial to human and still kills germs, especially covid
       | [1]
       | 
       | The positive effects are a) vitamin d production b) germicide
       | 
       | The negative effects are c) lower energy efficiency in the
       | visible spectrum (watt per visible light produced) d) negative
       | effect on the eye e) carciogenic
       | 
       | For indoor keeping of reptiles UVB light seems to be needed [2]
       | As far as i've read, for indoor planting, UV light seems to
       | beneficial as well, for example it increases the production of
       | THC [3]
       | 
       | Why should we, as humans, be different ?
       | 
       | [1]Ratnesar-shumate, S.; Williams, G.; Green, B.; Krause, M.;
       | Holland, B.; Wood, S.; Bohannon, J.; Boydston, J.; Freeburger,
       | D.; Hooper, I.; Beck, K.; Yeager, J.; Altamura, L. A.; Biryukov,
       | J.; Yolitz, J.; Schuit, M.; Wahl, V.; Hevey, M.; Dabisch, P.
       | Simulated Sunlight Rapidly Inactivates SARS-CoV-2 on Surfaces. J.
       | Infect. Dis. 2020, 222 (2), 214-222.Google Scholar https://sci-
       | hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1093/infdis/jiaa274
       | 
       | [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet#UVB
       | 
       | [3] https://vanessa-nielsen.com/cannabis-plants-uv-light/
        
         | weaksauce wrote:
         | if i had to guess there are a few reasons they don't do this...
         | 
         | the first and most important reason is manufacturers have and
         | will optimize for the main benefit of a product. the main
         | product here is light. heat came as a negative byproduct of
         | traditional incandescent lights and heat is something to
         | minimize to lengthen the life of an led bulb.
         | 
         | another possibility is that if it were widespread it could
         | cause some negative outcomes of people sitting too closely to a
         | source of it and potentially exposing the companies to legal
         | issues. not a lawyer and they might be able to shield
         | themselves from that liability with well written disclaimers
         | though.
         | 
         | Along with inertia from the incandescent bulbs not emitting
         | that wavelength... the most likely reason is that they don't
         | want to spend the money on researching how safe it is and how
         | to cost effectively make them like that though.
        
         | defaultname wrote:
         | UV A/B is oxidizing, which is why plastics left outside degrade
         | rapidly, discoloration occurs, etc. It's bad for your eyes, bad
         | for your skin in excess, and creates ozone in the air which is
         | an environmental pollutant.
         | 
         | Normal indoor plants have no need for UV at all. Nor do most
         | food plants -- greenhouse glass blocks UV, for instance.
        
         | collegeburner wrote:
         | Because UV fades fabric, degrades plastic, damages and
         | discolors wood, etc.
        
         | briHass wrote:
         | CFL bulbs, especially earlier versions often emitted a
         | surprising amount of UV light. The speculation is that the
         | tight coils of glass would result in breaks in the phosphor
         | coating, letting the UV through.
         | 
         | I know I have fixtures that used to have CFLs in them, and any
         | plastic is yellowed significantly.
        
         | sega_sai wrote:
         | I don't think germicide is necessarily good. There are theories
         | that the abundance of allergies and autoimmune diseases is
         | partially caused by excessive cleanliness/lack of exposure to
         | microbes etc.
        
           | scotty79 wrote:
           | I think allergies and autoimmune diseases are partially
           | caused by the fact that people are no longer work infested
           | with parasites in yhe way they were all the time since
           | forever. Parasites suppress immune responses.
           | 
           | I think we should figure out how to substitute their
           | influence on humans before we conclude that exposing
           | ourselves to bacteria and viruses a lot is a good thing.
        
       | ozfive wrote:
       | Where can I buy one?
        
       | ISL wrote:
       | The article has an interesting changelog in the Competing-
       | Interests section, which led to this correction:
       | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-97682-w
        
       | geoduck14 wrote:
       | This is really cool! At the start of the pandemic, I researched
       | UVC light as a mechanism to kill the virus. I do want to point
       | out a minor point:
       | 
       | >However, the widespread use of germicidal ultraviolet light in
       | public settings has been very limited because conventional UVC
       | light sources are a human health hazard, being both carcinogenic
       | and cataractogenic
       | 
       |  _conventional_ UVC is generated by mercury light bulbs and _are_
       | carcinogenic and cataractogenic
       | 
       | BUT about 10 years ago, it became practical to use frequency
       | doubling in LEDs to generate light _really close_ to the mercury
       | light - the LEDs are _not carcinogenic and cataractogenic_. When
       | you read about UVC effects, you should check what type of light
       | source they are using (mercury vs LED)
       | 
       | Also, it is the advancements in silicon manufacturing that has
       | made it cheaper to make new and different LEDs - such as these
       | "far-UVCs". It is pretty legit!
       | 
       | There is "a lot" of research demonstrating effectiveness of
       | "conventional UVC", but not a lot on "far-UVC". One of the
       | limitations on both is the shadow effect... got to go. I'll
       | elaborate if there is interest
        
         | aaaaaaaaaaab wrote:
         | >the LEDs are not carcinogenic and cataractogenic
         | 
         | Lol! Yeah, UV light from mercury gives you cancer, but the same
         | electromagnetic radiation from LEDs is totally harmless! LEDs
         | are green, haven't you heard?
        
           | kadoban wrote:
           | You can say the same thing without being mean.
        
         | baskethead wrote:
         | Far-UVC is UVC light that still kills viruses and bacteria but
         | get absorbed by the top layer of skin and cause no issues. It's
         | safe for eyes and skin.
         | 
         | I don't know why it hasn't been productive since the start of
         | the pandemic.
        
         | detaro wrote:
         | > _BUT about 10 years ago, it became practical to use frequency
         | doubling in LEDs to generate light really close to the mercury
         | light - the LEDs are not carcinogenic and cataractogenic._
         | 
         | What makes the LED light not dangerous that way? As far as I
         | understand, what makes UVC effective is also what makes it
         | dangerous.
        
           | Gibbon1 wrote:
           | I did the same as the parent. The answer is that mercury
           | based UV lamps produce a spiky broad spectrum including
           | emission lines really where you don't want them. And not very
           | much at the frequency that is most effective at destroying
           | RNA/DNA. 220nm is important because it's very effective at
           | cross linking thymine.
           | 
           | UV LEDs can be manufactured to produce a very narrow spectrum
           | centered on 220nm. So with an LED the total amount of UV
           | produced is much less and doesn't include problematic
           | frequencies that cause eye and tissue damage. Supposedly, I
           | don't work in this space.
           | 
           | Note most UV LED's aren't suitable for sterilization. If it
           | comes in a plastic case and costs 30 cents, it's certainly
           | not.
        
         | bratwurst3000 wrote:
         | Hmmm sorry that doesnt seem right. If it is the same wavelength
         | it should have the same properties. You can add waves so that
         | they add up to a new wave. But it is still a uv wave.
         | 
         | Maybe the intensity is less.... :). Or the range of uv is more
         | specific.
        
         | CryptoPunk wrote:
         | >>of the limitations on both is the shadow effect... got to go.
         | I'll elaborate if there is interest
         | 
         | Yes please
        
           | rapjr9 wrote:
           | Not the OP but the shadow effect is that the light can only
           | kill viruses if it reaches them directly. So if the virus is
           | on your skin under your clothes or in your nose or behind a
           | sofa, the light can't reach it. If the virus is embedded in
           | dirt or opaque oils the light can't reach it. If you're in a
           | crowded room and there is a temporary display that was put up
           | everyone in the shadow of it is not protected as much. Every
           | shadow is a place the virus can lurk, on a surface or in the
           | air. Putting far UVC LED's in places like air conditioners
           | and HVAC systems may make some sense. Putting them in rooms
           | may not, although they would reduce risk to some extent, even
           | though they won't have full coverage. The safety of far-UVC
           | has not been extensively tested, yet it is already being
           | deployed:
           | 
           | https://theblindhorse.com/the-blind-horse-becomes-first-
           | rest...
        
             | 323 wrote:
             | An amount of light will be reflected by the walls. So it
             | will get to most shadowed places too. Of course, a much
             | larger exposure time will be needed to be effective there.
             | 
             | You can easily check that there is no true pitch black
             | shadow open place in a room, this is the whole idea behind
             | "global illumination rendering".
        
               | bratwurst3000 wrote:
               | If it reflects at the walls it looses energy and isnt UVC
               | anymore ...maybe uvb .... Thats the reason we can see uv
               | floruelenc ... 300nm( UVA) radiation that gets reduced to
               | something like 350nm(blue light)
        
               | 323 wrote:
               | If true that would be terrible. Because higher wavelength
               | UV is very dangerous.
               | 
               | And are you sure about this? When visible light gets
               | reflected by a wall it doesn't seem to change wavelength
               | significantly (color basically remains the same).
        
               | bratwurst3000 wrote:
               | Okey i wasnt clear. The wall has to interact with the
               | radiation. Thats why you see colours.
               | 
               | https://wonderopolis.org/wonder/why-does-a-black-light-
               | make-...
        
         | fsh wrote:
         | If the light emitted by the LEDs is "really close" to the
         | mercury light, it should be just as carcinogenic.
         | 
         | I also seriously doubt that the LEDs are based on silicon since
         | indirect bandgap semiconductors make horribly inefficient light
         | sources. Also the bandgap of silicon is somewhere in the near
         | infrared.
         | 
         | Frequency doubling requires exteremely high intensites that are
         | usually only reached by focussed laser beams. I don't see how
         | one could use it in a LED.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2022-01-09 23:01 UTC)