[HN Gopher] I feel dumb(er) when typing, and smart(er) when writing
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I feel dumb(er) when typing, and smart(er) when writing
I have noticed many times, writing down a problem and work on it on
a paper is much more productive than staring at my screen and/or
jumping right to code. Last time it happened, I spent a day on a
Coq exercise, when I finally I decided to grab a paper and pen, and
solved it in 5 minutes. Is this something that anyone else is
experiencing? Is it something that has been (dis)-proved?
Author : dgan
Score : 80 points
Date : 2022-01-09 13:43 UTC (9 hours ago)
| motoboi wrote:
| To me is the contrary. Writing by hand slows me down. Typing is a
| direct connection between my ideias and the text. Typing actually
| helps me think better.
| selfhifive wrote:
| I can't keep the variables, constraints, and edge cases in my
| mind. I use diagrams and crude flowcharts so paper/S-pen on
| Note/Tab is a must for me. Staring at the screen or typing it out
| doesn't do much for me.
| spookybones wrote:
| Do you use the s-pen for general note-taking or only when you
| need to draw something?
| selfhifive wrote:
| For every handwritten thing. Use the Note S-pen when on the
| go.
| civilized wrote:
| Writing is good for your toughest problems. For easier work, like
| tracking and prioritizing tasks, a text editor is more efficient.
| In both cases you want to minimize distractions.
| ndemir wrote:
| I can't say I feel dumb(er) but I can certainly say that when I
| am stuck with a problem, I feel the urge to use pen & paper
| (s-pen & s-note) to work on the problem ;)
| pdpi wrote:
| It's useful to understand the difference between problem space
| and solution space. Writing code (in most languages) is all about
| writing in solution space, and sucks at talking about problem
| space. I find that most people tend to jump into their editor way
| too quickly and start writing the solution before they've
| thoroughly analyzed the problem.
|
| When I jump from editor to pen and paper it usually means that
| I'm having trouble mapping the code I'm writing to a part of the
| problem Im'solving, and I switch to exploring the problem more
| before going back to the solution. I'm going to go out on a limb
| and say that that's pretty much what happened to you as well.
| karmakaze wrote:
| I've noticed the same when I write design notes in a Github
| issue vs a Google Doc. The latter results in a longer document
| with less technical focus => lower quality, more suitable for a
| less-technical audience. Even knowing this, my writing style
| and content drifts in those directions for each medium.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Context shifts are actually great for changing your perspective
| and reinvigorating your ability to work around road blocks.
|
| Switching from screen to paper is one way of context shifting.
| You could also switch a whiteboard.
|
| You could switch to talking through the problem verbally with a
| colleague or, lacking that, a rubber duck.
|
| You could just get up and go for a walk to think about that
| problem. Context shifting from indoors to outdoors can be a
| significant change.
|
| It helps to learn how to recognize when you're stuck, not making
| any progress, and have maybe a bit of "learned helplessness"
| slowing you down even further. Shaking up your context can help
| break out of it.
| dgan wrote:
| I think you are right to generalise it to "context switch".
| Countless times I deleted my yet-to-be-posted, detailed
| Stackoverflow question, when after typing (ha!) it, i would
| realize my mistake.
|
| I never tried duck - debugging, maybe should give it a go too
| jth1 wrote:
| lambdaba wrote:
| It's kind of surprising that the makers of Copilot or others
| haven't come up with something like an automated, "smart"
| rubber duck.
| medstrom wrote:
| A "smart" rubber duck would probably suck, because it won't
| ask the right questions, but I expect it's going to be a
| common IDE feature down the line. It'll help for some
| classes of problems.
| Arubis wrote:
| I honest-to-goodness will frequently print out code to review or
| revise on paper. Being able to mark it up with pen freehand
| doesn't let me do anything I couldn't in a good editor, but it
| works better in my head.
| pedrovhb wrote:
| Recently I started writing out all my ideas and designs of
| personal coding projects in a notebook of graph paper. It's
| pretty incredible how I can see and think about high level things
| (like general architecture) much more easily than if I'm in front
| of a screen staring at code or a project template. The cycle of
| thinking, building it out until you reach the next tier of work,
| and then stopping to think again is a lot more efficient in the
| long term than continuously solving the next problem without
| having a concrete target direction.
|
| One of these days I'll start seriously building my Graph Paper
| Markup Language processor, which will use scanned notebook pages
| with special symbols recognized by OCR to automatically tag and
| add dates to my notes. It's all sketched out already.
| karmakaze wrote:
| In a similar vein, I've noticed that I'm significantly dumber
| when I use a laptop with the touchpad vs using the same laptop
| with a mouse. I mostly grew up learning to write software with a
| mouse and later in life consume media using touchscreen
| phones/tablets. Now I know how to get in the 'work' mode. [Also
| noticed that comfy trackpants are worse for thinking than jeans
| or other office pants.]
| bcrl wrote:
| Personally, I find that I remember things much better after
| writing them down with pen and paper versus typing. It's a very
| different kind of flow relative to programming on a computer with
| a keyboard which feels much more ephemeral.
| brewmarche wrote:
| What I experience is that I can remember things I write a lot
| better. I'm not sure why. I can type a lot faster than I write.
|
| Also for problem solving I agree. I also don't know why but I
| feel a lot "freer" when I have a sheet of paper in front of me.
| dgan wrote:
| Totally agree on last part
| wodenokoto wrote:
| I don't know about you but I feel a piece of paper provides much
| more freedom than a txt file.
|
| While writing text is slower than typing, it's much, much easier
| to choose where to write, and to draw lines and boxes. All tools
| that helps thinking.
|
| > when I finally I decided to grab a paper and pen, and solved it
| in 5 minutes.
|
| In defense of your hard work, it's always the last solution you
| try that works.
| lambdaba wrote:
| Contratulations, you have discovered [Hammock-Driven
| Development](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f84n5oFoZBc)! (also
| https://github.com/matthiasn/talk-transcripts/blob/master/Hi...)
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Writing in my opinion is the best way to think through problems.
| It takes concentration and effort.
|
| Jeff Bezos says the "smartest thing" they did at Amazon was to
| ban low effort presentations and embrace writing long-form briefs
| for each meeting. That made sure the problem was thoroughly
| thought out by the meeting owner and is read by the group in
| detail for the first 30 minutes of the meeting.
|
| In open source, many projects adopt a RFC(request for comments)
| process in which a problem is written about exclusively with
| solutions and asking for public feedback. This works effectively
| in ecosystems like Rust, Python, JavaScript, and C#.
|
| If you think about knowledge work in general, 80% of the job is
| problem solving, creative thinking, etc. 20% of the job is
| implementing / coding. Jumping straight to code was something I
| did when I was early in career, but now it's the last thing I do
| until I understand the problem in detail.
| lambdaba wrote:
| Actual writing is the best form of pseudocode :)
|
| I like the anecdote, this and the two-pizza rule are some nice
| bits of Amazon "management lore".
| twobitshifter wrote:
| People have spoken to the problem with pc typing being the every
| present editor just a backspace away. In writing or on
| typewriters you must delay edits until the final step. This
| allows you to cohesively restructure your thoughts.
| drenvuk wrote:
| I'd like to ask how you used the notebook. diagrams and drawings?
| quick notes and thoughts? what was it like and what was your
| thought process like?
| dgan wrote:
| In this particular problem, I simply noted "what I know" on one
| side, and "what I need" on the other, then, trying mechanically
| prove my goal from my hypothesis. Being able to "see my bricks"
| was the key part. On a screen, those bricks while exist, are
| separated by scrolling distance.
|
| But in general, I never do drawing, but yes, definitely
| diagrams of some state machines for example. It's simply
| impossible to hold them in the head.
| drenvuk wrote:
| I have wondered if it's the lack of manipulation and input
| ability that computers have in comparison to paper that makes
| it superior. by manipulation I mean right down to being able
| to crumple the paper, throw it across the room then go and
| pick it up again to check something.
|
| I use a notebook as well btw, for leetcode as well. it's
| simple better. limited in it's distractions, requires a
| greater amount of lingering on thoughts rather than quickly
| typing in whatever words have come to mind, freedom of input
| and manipulation. it does one thing slowly, not everything
| fast and the interaction it requires is beneficial to then
| thought process.
|
| even tablets are not as good. anyways, I agree with you.
| jbluepolarbear wrote:
| I've been a professional for 10+ years and I have always used a
| notebook to work out issues. I fill a notebook in about 3 months.
| It's really helpful for working through a problem in a free form
| way. I draw diagrams, tables, pseudo code, etc. Often forcing
| myself to think of the problem in a different way (writing it
| down) helps me understand what needs to be done.
| max002 wrote:
| No, actually it has been proven that writing by hand activates
| many other regions of brain so that might be the cause why youre
| feeling the difference.
| paulsutter wrote:
| I almost missed your comment because it starts with the word
| "No"
|
| Looks like there is evidence for this:
|
| - https://www.forbes.com/sites/nancyolson/2016/05/15/three-
| way...
|
| - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4274624/
|
| When I (tried to) learn Japanese, I was only able to read
| handwritten kanji after learning to handwrite kanji. The effect
| was striking, night and day
| Syzygies wrote:
| Back in the day, a shopkeeper in Japan might realize that they'd
| forgotten to pull out their abacus, that they'd been playing this
| musical instrument in their head to do calculations all morning.
|
| One guides a slide rule to roughly the right position based on
| intuition, then homes in on the answer.
|
| Calculators make people dumber.
|
| I'm torn between doing all my math on 40 lb laser paper with an
| assortment of Staedtler Pigment Liners, or on my iPad Pro using
| the architectural drawing program Concepts. Either way, I'm
| drawing. A digital interface is like a bird taking flight when
| one becomes algorithmically involved.
| mare5x wrote:
| Same here. The best time to debug code is before writing it.
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| Without all the context, I think it is due to structure of the
| problem. Some problem can't be understood clearly with just text,
| but needs diagrams etc. Coq problem seems like one that could
| fall in this category. And if you are like me, rough diagramming
| in computer seems slower/harder than with pen and paper. For
| these kind of things, I found apple pencil+ipad to superior to
| both as you don't need to worry about space and page flip and you
| have all the advantage of free hand scribbling.
| dgan wrote:
| Interesting, i never thought about e pen and a electronic pad.
| Will think about that
| pantulis wrote:
| There's a whole industry of devices around that: of course
| the iPad, but there's the reMarkable, AirNote, Boox Note...
|
| I carry my own Smallish notebook and pen but the convenience
| of having everything already digitized and available
| everywhere is so tempting.
| 300bps wrote:
| I am the exact opposite.
|
| I type 150+ WPM and can't write to save my life. Writing things
| down with pen/paper does nothing for me.
| aerojoe23 wrote:
| I'm only 70 wpm typing and it is still way faster than writing.
| I think paper is good for doodling though. Like when I want
| visualize how a system works, but ms paint (or others) works
| well for this.
| dgan wrote:
| What do you do when you re stuck?
| [deleted]
| joconde wrote:
| > I type 150+ WPM and can't write to save my life.
|
| Same, but writing still helps me think better.
|
| Maybe typing is too guided, and having to organise my thoughts
| on paper makes the process more efficient.
| saghm wrote:
| Honestly, due to my perpetual difficulty with writing both neatly
| enough to read and quickly enough to keep up with my thoughts
| (it's always been an either/or thing), I feel much smarter when
| typing (on a physical keyboard; I also can't type that quickly on
| a phone keyboard). Adding in the ability to arbitrarily jump
| around and edit stuff, I feel like I can always express myself in
| a way I'm happier with at a computer than on paper.
| rudolph9 wrote:
| Same here! I have never felt comfortable hand writing things
| but the act of typing in an editor such as vim feels very
| liberating.
| drakonka wrote:
| There's a little notebook by my computer at all times for this
| reason. It isn't even just writing that helps when I'm trying to
| figure out a problem or pick a good approach, but doodling.
| Doodling while thinking seems to help things click into place and
| generate new ideas sometimes.
|
| In my first job in games, my lead at the time took issue with
| seeing me occasionally doodle in a notebook in front of my PC. It
| wasn't a case of sitting there doodling all day and getting no
| work done, or not focusing. I'd only do it for a few seconds or a
| couple of minutes at a time, when thinking through a task or
| problem. After that interaction, I stopped doodling at work for a
| long time, to my (and I believe my work's) detriment.
| periheli0n wrote:
| Pen & paper provide the opportunity to use the full 2D plane for
| laying out your thoughts. I find this extremely valuable during
| conceptualisation, for sorting ideas, finding and highlighting
| connections etc.
|
| Typing however is one-dimensional. Thoughts need to be serialised
| in order to type them out. Sometimes this is exactly what you
| need. For example, a linear narrative tends to make it much
| easier to explain your ideas to others. And of course code is
| just a serialised version of a program.
| wrp wrote:
| My problem solving ability is noticeably much stronger when
| working on paper versus at the screen. This is true for both
| mathematical reasoning and narrative writing. The effect is so
| great for me that I don't even try to do serious editing or study
| of a text on screen.
|
| I have just a tentative explanation for this, that it is related
| to the apprehension and distraction of having a machine staring
| you in the face, waiting for you to do something. I had exactly
| the same issue in the days before personal computers, when I
| would sit facing an electric typewriter.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| For me, it is the opposite. I feel much more productive when
| writing code, to the point where my idea is "when I am not
| coding, I am not working". I don't even have a pen and paper at
| work. I have a phone with a stylus that I use as a substitute
| from time to time, and I sometimes take notes on text files, but
| 99% of my thinking is done while coding.
|
| Code is what keeps me down to earth. It may seem like an
| unnecessary detail to think about how to pass a variable when you
| are barely familiar with the subject, but if you can't get
| something that simple right, chances are that your are going it
| the wrong direction and when time will come to do the
| implementation, you will be in a world of pain. Of course, a lot
| of that early code ends up being thrown away and reworked, but in
| the early phases, it is rarely a problem.
|
| It probably has to do with a top-down vs bottom-up approach. I am
| much more comfortable working bottom-up, thinking first about the
| details and how they fit the big picture, rather than to top-down
| approach, where you think of the big picture and work up the
| details later. I think that both approach will eventually lead
| you to the same destination, so choose the one you are most
| confortable with.
|
| Also, context matter. I do mostly low-ish level programming
| (mostly C++), I don't know about coq, but it seems to be more
| maths than technical engineering, so maybe a different mindset is
| required.
| jonahbenton wrote:
| I can attest to having seen papers on this, but am not able to
| track them down right now. The theory is not dissimilar to rubber
| ducking- using your brain to work in the problem space- which
| helps transition your mental model to solution domain.
|
| Like you and others this experience with paper has also been my
| experience for decades. Perhaps of interest is that I
| transitioned from using paper to a Remarkable tablet, which is
| surprisingly great from a writing experience perspective, but
| which is deficient in the "paging through" experience that is so
| important with paper. Its still preferable to me to work
| digitally, and to unify around a device I can read on, and I am
| able to use it to work in problem domain reasonably effectively.
|
| HTH.
| Tarsul wrote:
| I just read an interview in the guardian with author George
| Saunders that has 7 tips for writing (and reviewing what is
| written). One fits here especially: " Print - Revision is "not
| meaningful unless I print," he says. "There's a visual difference
| in reading on the page versus the computer. I don't trust it
| unless I'm reading a hard copy."" So, basically if an award
| winning writer thinks like you do, there's nothing wrong with it
| :) (btw. his other tips are great too) actually, there are
| studies about this that agree (e.g. better retention when reading
| paper than when reading on screen) but I don't have them saved.
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/08/always-wanted-...
| usrbin wrote:
| Anecdotally I notice the same. I'm curious about whether it's
| the look of print vs. a screen, or the physical form of the
| text being a physical object vs. stored on a device. Do we get
| a similar effect from using e-ink devices?
| dgan wrote:
| Yes, I have noticed that too, but it's less pronounced in my
| experience. Just the fact that I can turn the page, look
| forward, come back and underline in color, feels much more
| engaging
| xwdv wrote:
| For me it depends on what I'm writing. I feel dumb writing a long
| article, but I feel much smarter writing short comments in
| response to articles.
| sammycaution wrote:
| Alan Kennington wrote about the "asterisk method" to learning
| mathematics [0]. There is a line that I'm thinking about in
| particular when you mention the utility of paper and pencil over
| reading on screen (or solving problems in general): "Copying
| material by hand is important because this forces the ideas to go
| through the mind. The mind is on the path between the eyes and
| the hands. So when you copy something, it must go through your
| mind!"
|
| Maybe there is something about owning a problem that is more
| personal when writing it down and working it out by hand versus
| reading it on a screen.
|
| [0] http://www.geometry.org/tex/conc/mathlearn.html
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