[HN Gopher] The Wrong Side of Right
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The Wrong Side of Right
Author : durmonski
Score : 23 points
Date : 2022-01-09 13:24 UTC (9 hours ago)
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| compressedgas wrote:
| Be a rhizome. Not a tree. But a forest.
| gmaster1440 wrote:
| Whenever I encounter advice in this vein, I can't help but feel
| it significantly undermines the inextricable relationship between
| productivity/caring and ego.
|
| To be able to care just enough about something to genuinely
| commit to it and yet not care too much to not find yourself
| entangled with it is incredibly difficult, if not inherently
| paradoxical.
|
| _Something_ has to do the caring--that 's the ego. We're
| frequently told to meditate the ego away, but if we do that
| effectively, an overwhelming equanimity emerges that is
| essentially a thermodynamic equilibrium and effectively the end
| of what we generally mean by productivity.
| ok_dad wrote:
| I had trouble at my previous job like this. I knew I was right
| and my boss was wrong and let him know. I also worked way too
| hard for the benefits I was getting there. It didn't do much
| for my career and didn't help my mental health, so I ended up
| leaving.
|
| In my new job, I decided to care about the outcome a little
| less so that I can play my part better. Sure, we could fix all
| the stuff that I think is wrong here at the new place, but then
| we would not get the stuff done that will make more progress
| with our customers and product. Honestly, just caring a little
| less does wonders.
|
| I sure wish I could quit and start my own business, though,
| because surely I could do better! At least my ego tells me that
| I could do better...
| nils-m-holm wrote:
| > Something has to do the caring--that's the ego.
|
| This is the narrative that we are told to believe, but ask
| people who did "meditate the ego away". They will tell you that
| productivity and all the other things in life still just
| happen, only "you" (whatever that is anyway) do not care so
| much about them any longer. It is not a paradox. The "ego"
| itself is a paradox.
| gmaster1440 wrote:
| If you can provide examples of durable productivity in the
| face of a deconstructed ego that would help. I've only been
| able to find examples to the contrary, such as some of the
| most ego-less people also being the least productive (in the
| traditional sense of the word implying labor and output),
| i.e. monks.
|
| To be clear I'm not making any moral or value claims here,
| rather simply observing the correlation between ego and
| productivity/commitment.
| nils-m-holm wrote:
| Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj received people every day for
| decades and answered their questions. He made it very clear
| that the answering just happens without anybody doing it,
| and he continued doing it even in the presence of the pain
| of terminal cancer, weeks before his death. You could call
| that commitment, but Maharaj said otherwise. Source: Jean
| Dunn (Ed); "Consciousness and the Absolute"; Acorn Press,
| 1994
|
| Then there are lots of books written by people whose "ego
| died" (although what does not exist cannot die), and from
| own experience I can tell you that writing a book requires
| a lot of momentum--or what you call commitment.
| gbuk2013 wrote:
| Wrong kind of productivity for the capitalist environment
| though. Once the ego is out of the picture it is easy to
| enjoy "having enough" and choosing more worthwhile
| pursuits than the rat race to make someone yet more
| wealthy.
| e1g wrote:
| It depends on how broadly you define 'ego', as people
| committed to a cause larger than themselves are often
| extraordinarily dedicated & productive. Priests, teachers,
| explorers, scientists (driven to find a cure for a genetic
| disease), etc. Their motivation might have a small
| component of individual ego (" _I_ found it! "), but mostly
| it's egoless service to a significant problem they observe
| in their society/world.
| gmaster1440 wrote:
| That's a fair response, and we may disagree here
| somewhat, but to me there's a subtle redefinition of
| "ego" going on when we talk about traditionally
| "selfless" acts or charity or, as you put it, commitments
| to causes larger than individuals.
|
| To me, certain egos are fed by selfless works and
| dedications to grand causes. This is not to say that's a
| bad thing or that we don't want to create incentives to
| have more of this, but I do think it circles back to the
| original problem of the ego. It's just that certain
| people's egos are more effectively fed when not focusing
| just on themselves.
| jfengel wrote:
| The ego-less people tend not to spend a lot of time telling
| their stories. So such projects tend to be known by the
| result. Apollo 11 was one particularly prominent example of
| lots of people putting their egos aside for the common
| goal.
|
| There is perhaps always an ego at the top, at least when
| the project itself is ego driven like Apollo. We only know
| the stories that somebody told.
| HighlandSpring wrote:
| This has also been my impression. I think the paradox is
| roughly this:
|
| - People who understand driving the most meaningful outcome may
| not be egotistic enough to want to drive it (they're content in
| life, their self-worth is unlinked to their outcomes)
|
| - People who are willing to sacrifice lifestyle to drive
| meaningful outcomes also care about being right and are easily
| blinded by their ego when they're wrong
|
| And the most depressing of all:
|
| - Commanding the resources to drive meaningful outcomes too
| often goes hand-in-hand with being entrenched in some kind of a
| system that's too inefficient/bureaucratic/political to
| actually empower anyone to drive meaningful outcomes.
|
| Another crutch:
|
| - Driving meaningful outcomes can go hand-in-hand with absolute
| and utter obsession for navigating whatever is needed to drive
| it. Personally I understand it as the doing/reflecting
| dichotomy. Doing the doing leaves little room for reflecting
| and vice versa.
| _hyn3 wrote:
| That seems plausible, but it's hard to disprove the truthiness
| of non-falsifiable statements, especially at (to use your
| excellent choice of words) that paradoxical intersection of ego
| and productivity.
|
| (On the other hand, I may not care enough about this topic to
| genuinely commit to it, which probably means I'm right. ;) )
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