[HN Gopher] Ruling party figures say Poland has Pegasus spyware
___________________________________________________________________
Ruling party figures say Poland has Pegasus spyware
Author : purplesnowflake
Score : 223 points
Date : 2022-01-07 17:06 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| TonyRobbins wrote:
| young_unixer wrote:
| Morally, I find it much more acceptable for governments to use
| non-coercitive methods like hacking instead of coercitive methods
| like subpoenas requesting user data.
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| PiS maintains power through a process similar to gerrymandering.
| Their base is at around 30% and they acquired power by
| strategically crafting a message specifically aimed at appealing
| to the most vulnerable and uneducated segment of the population.
| Their core promise is a vision of family- and country-first and
| glory for the heroes of a vague past. In practice PiS rules by
| causing controversy after controversy which effectively splits
| the opposition and media, and mostly covers up for the dumbest
| corruption schemes ever. Most Poles have a distaste for Western
| European neoliberal politics and are center-right conservative if
| not libertarian with some liberal, but at this point everybody
| knows PiS is just filled with cynical and opportunistic
| apparatchiks. The worst part is that the people who control PiS
| are simply wicked clever. They've spent the last six years
| continuously running a never-ending political campaign with their
| media at full blast, and a stand-in president who is constantly
| traveling and visiting key-towns to meet-greet the communities.
| Right when they took power in 2015 they reformed the Supreme
| Court by firing a bunch of judges and installing loyalists
| effectively breaking the constitution. It's like a dictatorship
| of stupid. And what _must_ be said: it's not that Poland is
| turning into an actual fascist dictatorship, not that much
| violence is happening and our political views aren't being really
| repressed. The real problem is that PiS is actually strategically
| weakening us as a country and nation. Especially in our
| international relationships. This Pegasus spyware is only yet
| another such example of the BS. In my own personal opinion, at
| this point PiS has been doing everything so poorly that I suspect
| that they're actually being supported and controlled by external
| adversaries behind the scenes.
| justapassenger wrote:
| > PiS maintains power through a process similar to
| gerrymandering. Their base is at around 30% and they acquired
| power by strategically crafting a message specifically aimed at
| appealing to the most vulnerable and uneducated segment of the
| population
|
| I don't disagree with rest of your comment. But that's nothing
| like gerrymandering. It's pure politics.
|
| Gerrymandering is choosing your voters, by meddling with an
| importance of each single vote.
|
| Politics is knowing your base and crafting message at them. No
| sane political party in the world tries to craft their policies
| to make everyone happy. Knowing your voters and telling them
| what they want to hear is politics 101.
| throwJan22 wrote:
| Poland has an authoritarian govt now.
|
| They started by sacking the supreme court and installing its own
| judges https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/new-polish-
| regi...
|
| Last independent newspapers were bought by state owned Gas
| Station chain. https://www.dw.com/en/poland-state-run-oil-
| company-buys-lead...
|
| The only independent new TV channel was going to get shut down
| but recently had a last minute veto.
| https://variety.com/2021/tv/global/discovery-poland-media-bi...
|
| It defies EU who says member countries must have EU law supremacy
| https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/19/europe/eu-poland-rule-of-law-...
|
| They regularly have parliamentary votes late at night when only
| the PiS party turns up.
|
| They give a lot of money to the church who then praise the party
| during services.
|
| Its not a real democracy any more.
| dang wrote:
| Could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments
| you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site
| guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
|
| You needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a
| community, users need some identity for other users to relate
| to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no
| community, and that would be a different kind of forum.
| https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
| FastEatSlow wrote:
| I was watching the TVN vote when visiting my grandparents in
| poland, man was it scary. Really felt dystopian watching the
| news during it, but it was great how many protests supported
| TVN. I'm annoyed that I didn't find out about the one going on
| near me.
| Ralfp wrote:
| For those not aware, vote on ,,Lex TVN" was lost by the
| ruling party, but then parliament's marshall (person
| responsive for maintaining order of proceedings) announced
| that voting process was invalid and ran another voting over
| the law which made it pass the parliament and go to senate.
| scotty79 wrote:
| Don't forget that public television funded from taxes and
| mandatory fees is under full control of the goverment and
| didn't publish a single piece of information that critiques
| government for years now.
| jsodw wrote:
| But that happens everywhere in the world where there's public
| television. In Spain that even happens with private
| television since they've been giving them money as some sort
| of "pandemic relief", making sure they never speak ill of the
| measures put in place. Public television shouldn't exist in
| this day and age.
| scotty79 wrote:
| Leaked emails indicate that government official ordered TV
| to create a smear campaign about one judge that just ruled
| aginst prime minister in a court case. And TV immediately
| complied.
|
| I doubt it's the same in Spain.
| faeriechangling wrote:
| Public television lacks the same corporatist incentives of
| private media, their inability to meaningfully criticize
| the party that feeds them notwithstanding. I'd prefer a mix
| of public and private media to private media alone.
| jsodw wrote:
| I'd rather have corporatism than progressivism, but
| that's me.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| why?
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Probably he or she conflates progressivism with
| inefficient, yet authorian marxist rule like in sowjet
| russia - and corporatism with efficient no-marxist but
| corporate authorian rule.
| gspr wrote:
| Vile.
| oa2022 wrote:
| Wrong, there's not 1 public television
|
| theres 1 + 17 + even municipal television channels.. all at
| the expense of taxpayers, to make the government look good
| or push some politically loaded content
| adambyrtek wrote:
| Not everywhere, BBC would be a good counterexample.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| This is so wrong and a huge misunderstanding.
|
| If the state has such a stranglehold on the public channels
| then that is the underlying problem. It would have the same
| control over private media if it needed to.
|
| Public media and/or limited state support for private news
| media is absolutely vital for a functioning democracy.
| oa2022 wrote:
| Playing the "x is good for democracy" card. If it's good
| for democracy, it's totally justified right?
|
| And if someone claims X is good for democracy, he doesn't
| need to bring data because he's on the Good(TM) side, so
| he can skip that step, right?
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| Are you sure you are not erecting two strawmen there?
|
| In a democracy, the public chooses their leaders. They do
| so based on the readily available information. If the
| only (or overwhelminly prevalent) sources of information
| have other agendas, such as serving the needs of their
| conglomerate owners or a totalitarian-aspiring government
| then that information will be of low quality and likely
| to further cement the power of those that control the
| media.
|
| To counteract this, a way must be devised to ensure
| diligent journalistic types (of whom there is no
| shortage) have the means and security to do their proper
| diligence for the public.
| psacawa wrote:
| While this information is true, I am frustrated that the
| baseline for appropriate government is set by what happens in
| the west, or the status quo, or what makes Brussels give us
| pats on the back. It doesn't take a genius to see that this
| sort of norm for foreign policy always favours the incumbent.
|
| So I propose that we don't ask why TK doesn't recognize EU law
| supremacy, but rather reflect that presence in EU means losing
| sovereignty. This is a consequential loss. The accession
| occurred without most people realizing this would happen. They
| believed in an economic union.
|
| I also propose to question the implicit norm, that it's
| appropriate for an American media conglomerate to own the
| largest TV network in the country. Western countries are
| embattled on all fronts. Does it benefit us to have their media
| in control of our media? My intuition has always been that
| decision-making apparatus should be located close to the
| populations it affects. Otherwise it tends in the direction of
| imperialism.
|
| I feel frustrated by the person who thinks things are going
| well when Brussels is giving us a pat on the back and thumbs
| up... ciepla woda w kranie, then it's all good. And who ignores
| that with the EU connections, we are silently ceding more and
| more of our sovereignty. In my view, these people are short-
| sighted and incautious.
|
| PL may not be a real democracy anymore, but EU never was one.
| We don't elect the President of the European Comission, the
| head of the executive branch. Bureaucrats decide that. And
| their pick Jose Manuel Barroso went to Goldman Sachs shortly
| after leaving office...
|
| I don't want a person like this at the head of the executive
| branch of the union with legal supremacy over my country. I
| much prefer Kaczor and an army of moherowych beretow.
| Przynajmniej swojskie.
| cumfucker69 wrote:
| teluride5 wrote:
| The fact is, this is how democracy works. Most Poles currently
| prefer this government to a neoliberal cesspool.
| pzduniak wrote:
| It's not "most Poles". It's realistically a quarter, maybe a
| third of the population. Thankfully, the turnout increased
| from 51% in 2015 (when they won the absolute majority for the
| first time with 38%) to 68% in the second presidential
| election vote in 2020 (when they also won, but with a pretty
| slim margin).
| okl wrote:
| False dichotomy?
| gambiting wrote:
| An authoritarian government elected democratically is still
| authoritarian.
| dahfizz wrote:
| An authoritarian government elected democratically is still
| democratic. The whole point of democracy is that the people
| choose the government they want for themselves.
| jsodw wrote:
| gspr wrote:
| How? By enacting the will of an authoritarian majority,
| of course.
| Jorengarenar wrote:
| North Koreans wept when the previous dictator died. Is NK
| not authoritarian?
|
| And from the closer neighborhood: Russia and Belarus
| gambiting wrote:
| It's called Democratic Republic Of North Korea so of
| course not, it's in the name
|
| /s
| teluride5 wrote:
| Calling it authoritarian is an opinion, which can be
| debated. The parent comment said the government was not
| democratic, which is false.
| caymanjim wrote:
| You'll never know what most citizens prefer if you prevent or
| encumber opposition candidates.
| Jorengarenar wrote:
| >Most Poles currently prefer this government to a neoliberal
| cesspool.
|
| Not really. They just don't hate it enough to unite against
| it.
|
| Let's say that there are parties X, Y and Z.
|
| 30% of the population votes for X, 30% for Y and 40% for Z.
|
| Now, even if followers of X and Y hate Z more than each
| other, the winner is still Z.
| jobstijl wrote:
| Not in a parliamentary system like they have in the
| Netherlands.
| tryptophan wrote:
| Poland also has proportional representation. A 40% party
| will need to coalition with other parties if it wants to
| have enough votes to rule.
| pzduniak wrote:
| Except votes for parties who get less than 5% (if running
| alone) or 8% of votes (if a Coalition) do not count. So
| that 40% becomes 52% and suddenly the only thing you can
| do as a minority party is yell.
| tryptophan wrote:
| Rules like that aren't uncommon.
|
| Netherlands is like the one exception that doesn't
| require parties to win >4-5% of the vote to get into
| parliament.
|
| And all of these systems are more democratic than what
| the USA uses.
| dahfizz wrote:
| > 30% of the population votes for X, 30% for Y and 40% for
| Z.
|
| > Now, even if followers of X and Y hate Z more than each
| other, the winner is still Z.
|
| In this situation, Z would not win a runoff election
| though. In 2020 The PiS candidate won the presidential
| election[1]. I think saying that most Poles prefer the
| current government is imprecise but still truthful,
| therefore.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Polish_presidential_
| elect...
| karol wrote:
| I don't see anything here that other countries don't do and
| then cover it up and put on a democratic facade.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| Could you give some examples of major democracies (except the
| US, that is in a bad place, and maybe Hungary) where the same
| is happening and what is happening in those countries?
| xwdv wrote:
| Why is this happening? What is the end game?
| [deleted]
| odiroot wrote:
| Pure unadulterated power. And all the benefits that come with
| it.
| jacquesm wrote:
| The same as it always is: more money for a handful of people,
| less for the rest.
| jollybean wrote:
| Very sympathetic to that and it's all disconcerting, but
|
| 1) the 'Supreme / Constitutional Court' issue is not nearly as
| 'one sided'. There were terrible shenanigans played by 'the
| other side' prior to their departure, which originated that
| crisis. While I have little faith in PiS, they had legitimate
| concerns as least to provide cover for some of their own
| actions.
|
| and item 4) "It defies EU who says member countries must have
| EU law supremacy" - sorry to burst your bubble but that is
| reality. There is no treaty or law that gives ECJ 'Supremacy'.
| The ECJ in 1964 [1] made a ruling on their own jurisdiction and
| 'declared supremacy'. There is no legislative or treaty basis
| for quite the authority they assigned to themselves. Some local
| courts in the EU (i.e. France) have started to defer to the
| ruling, therefore legitimizing it, but it's still a 'Giant
| Problem' in the legal foundation of the EU. It was a big 'non
| populist' issue for Brexit, not really talked about in the
| media because regular citizens don't care but it was definitely
| an issue among the elites, and, it's still a contentious issue
| in Germany (and other places), where the Supremacy of ECJ is
| still not effectively recognized and it's a 'grey area'.
|
| But yes, it's a serious problem overall, we can agree.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primacy_of_European_Union_law
| petre wrote:
| > There is no treaty or law that gives ECJ 'Supremacy'
|
| Our former head of the Constitutional Court says otherwise,
| that through ratification of the EU Treaty of Lisbon we have
| accepted that ECJ decisions and EU law have primacy over
| national law.
| jollybean wrote:
| Ask yourself the question:
|
| If a bunch of nations are going to get into a kind of
| Federal Union, and have a 'court' of some kind, wouldn't it
| be _extremely_ prudent to parameterize what exactly those
| authorities are?
|
| If you were the PM/Pres or Supreme Court Judge of any
| country, wouldn't you think it would be the most _obvious
| and important thing_ to make it very clear and spelled out
| in law and treaty?
|
| If the framers of the EU actually wanted to hand over
| 'Judicial Supremacy' to the ECJ, would they, you know
| _actually write that down_?
|
| And absence of it being clear, why on god's green earth
| would nations hand over a fundamental right, one of the
| pillars of Liberal Democracy, over to a different
| institution.
|
| Any and all 'decisions' made otherwise, are hugely indirect
| and speculative i.e. "Well, we signed treaties with the EU
| _after_ the ECJ declared Supremacy, therefore, they have
| Supremacy ' is still very indirect.
|
| It's one of the more mind-boggling aspects of EU
| governance, and if you start to take a slightly cynical
| look at it, it doesn't look good.
|
| The most pragmatic reason for why the ECJ was never
| explicitly given power was because: it would be illegal, it
| would cause major uproar in nation states, it would never
| pass. So what they did was 'allowed' the ECJ to make a
| little ruling claiming authority, and then as generations
| go by, as local courts pile on the deferring agreements, it
| just 'becomes a reality'.
|
| That's a big speculation of course, but there's just no
| logic at all for nations handing over Judicial authority
| without it being fairly clear.
|
| If they were 'nitpicking' at 'some narrow issue' - then
| fine. There is always ambiguity. But this is not that, it's
| more fundamental.
|
| It's truly bizarre.
|
| And FYI this is not a resolved issue (See Germany: [1]) and
| there's still a lot going on.
|
| Also worth a glance [2]
|
| In terms of PiS shenanigans, nuance does matter, I don't
| think we can just be populist and say 'oh they rejected ECJ
| Supremacy which is ridiculous and evil' kind of thing. All
| of these issues are a bit tricky.
|
| I think a lot of people in Europe just think that the ECJ
| naturally has Supremacy, just like a regular Supreme Court,
| because that's what was agreed to and Poland is 'off their
| rocker' - like a US State ignoring a US Supreme Curt
| ruling. It's not the case though. People would be very
| surprised at the odd reality.
|
| [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/commission-sues-
| germany-esca...
|
| [2] https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/10/law-tool-eu-
| integration...
| petre wrote:
| I don't know about the woulds or would nots, I'm not an
| expert in constitutional law or international treaties.
| The former head of the CC is the former. I listen to what
| he has to say. It is what it is. What I can tell you is
| that the current situation suits me because there are
| mechanisms in place that make it considerably harder for
| local politicians to tighten their grip on power and turn
| my country into a dictatorship again. I will never
| support eurosceptic parties precisely because of what
| happened in Poland and Hungary, among other issues like
| Holocaust denial.
| raverbashing wrote:
| These are all valid considerations, but I think you're
| overestimating the level of equivalent judicial the USSC
| has for example
|
| > wouldn't it be extremely prudent to parameterize what
| exactly those authorities are?
|
| TFEU
|
| The ECJ decisions are actually more like recommendations
| on how the local courts should act.
|
| Countries that don't follow the rulings can't complain if
| they're suspended from EU resources and mechanisms while
| that is not solved, like having their exports blocked, be
| removed from Schengen, etc. (And if they don't like it
| they're free to complain to the walls since they don't
| recognize the ECJ...)
| Dma54rhs wrote:
| French themselves have never accepted it and have rulings
| about their law being superior since 90's. They should
| change their constitution but they won't.
| garaetjjte wrote:
| >There were terrible shenanigans played by 'the other side'
| prior to their departure, which originated that crisis.
|
| How that's related to legality of their own actions? Obvious
| solution was to reselect 2 judges who were selected illegally
| by previous parliament, but they willfully reselected all 5
| including these chosen correctly previously. This itself was
| decided by court (K 34/15), but they just ignored that
| ruling.
| DominikD wrote:
| Both-Sides-Ism is such a tiresome stance. Yes, PO fucked up
| on their way out but that in no way justifies PiS actions,
| not does it even explain them. They'd dismantle democracy
| with or without PO's unlawful judgment. It's dishonest to
| claim otherwise.
| scotty79 wrote:
| 1) However shinenigans you mention were executed in
| accordance with the law but PiS government violated the law
| staffing consitutional court, then retroactively changed the
| law to make what they did barely legal.
| jollybean wrote:
| "However shinenigans you mention were executed in
| accordance with the law "
|
| That's disputed, which is the point.
|
| But it's clear they were politically motivated actions to
| stack the Supreme Court with an ultramajority of Judges of
| their own liking. Just as PiS did after the fact.
|
| Opening that rabbit hole requires some nuance and
| objectivity, it's not nearly as one sided as it's presented
| in some media.
| scotty79 wrote:
| Good overwiew is here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/201
| 5_Polish_Constitutional_C...
|
| Using words like 'disputed' and talking about previous
| govenrment shinenigans being responsible in any way for
| the current state of affairs is true 'false equivalence'.
| [deleted]
| oa2022 wrote:
| ptsneves wrote:
| Indeed and take the negotiated sweet money from Europe as
| Toilet paper. Which they did due to their maneuver
| backfiring. Now they increased taxes massively, are
| grappling with major interest rate hikes putting a lot of
| normal Januszes in a tough spot to pay their mortgages. The
| cherry on top is a raging inflation.
|
| You are right they made a political move because they
| politicized and tribalized everything in the regime.
| Constitution is nothing but a tool for them. The law is
| optional. I think you give them too much credit in
| believing they understand at all what they are doing. My
| sensation is that the polish democratic institutions were
| too young and people too insensitive to the concepts of
| checks and balances to see the real damage being done. The
| social rifts are huge as well. On a country that prides
| itself on its identity and tenacity after the war, it is
| all a sad tragedy. As an imigrant to Poland it is extremely
| sad some of the divergences happening at a Christmas table.
| For what? No ruling party is there for ever. It is all just
| childishness. Sorry for the rant, it's just that I just
| received my new year's salary and it comes with a nice 7%
| net decrease due to the amazing polski lad tax "bonus".
| oa2022 wrote:
| It's a lot of badmouthing for the country you willingly
| immigrated to. There's like 220 other countries to choose
|
| Some, like (I guess) your native Portugal are great at
| compliance with the EU and allegiance to the socialist
| principles.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| Reading the wiki below in a comment below specifically about
| the court I see parallels in the US - which is scary.
|
| Though lawful, Republicans ignored their own 'rules' and just
| refused to 'seat' nominee (by not holding a hearing despite
| having almost half a year of time left). To be fair can argue
| wouldnt be confirmed even if they held a vote, but then why
| didn't they allow that? They then flipped those rules again
| when it suited their agenda.
|
| It's not totally the same, but reads similar to me.
|
| IDK if it's more scary that I personally believe Dems should
| exercise the same power to balance it back out. Though that
| would probably just cause a loop of reciprocating action
| towards chaos unless Dems can fix issues like the electoral
| college, redistricting, or add new states to balance the power
| towards more representational Democracy. Not many other
| remedies I can think of though.
|
| The court in the US has huge power and they are doing similar
| things as in Poland such as rolling back abortion rights, LGBTQ
| rights (I argue this in the recent private school funding
| ruling and I wouldn't be surprised if they use more 'religious
| discrimination' to legally allow discrimination against the
| groups these religions despise).
|
| This goes to your point about power of religion.
|
| I would also add power of media to spread flat out lies (worse,
| that they are smart enough to realize what they are doing) to
| further their agenda. While not government funded, the
| Republican admin and Republican elected basically dictate and
| actually organize the coverage. Crazy to me.
| champagnois wrote:
| >>Though lawful, Republicans ... refused to 'seat' nominee...
|
| [Party B] followed the rules. [Party A] did not have
| sufficient votes to appoint a judge, and so no judge was
| appointed. [Party B] is under no obligation to assist [Party
| A].
|
| >> They (Party B) then flipped those rules
|
| [Party B] changed no rules. [Party B] had the votes to
| appoint a judge, and so a judge was appointed. [Party A] did
| not have sufficient votes to oppose it.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| Please don't hijack a discussion on foreign politics to drop
| your hot take about US politics.
|
| Baseless fear mongering is not new but it does feel more
| common. The supreme court is not dramatically out of wack nor
| have they "rolled back abortion rights". They specifically
| rejected a particular emergency appeal because of issues with
| immediate harm.
|
| Preventing state discrimination in charter school funds is
| not a rollback of lgtbq rights, which are stronger than they
| have ever been, nor are charter schools mandatory.
|
| Media is not republican controlled and the vast, vast
| majority of media coverage in the US is liberal in leaning.
|
| Please stop doomsaying.
| sebow wrote:
| [deleted]
| oreoftw wrote:
| That's no big news. Largest newspapers have covered procurement
| and the fact that Pegasus has been bought several years ago.
| kodisha wrote:
| How can one fight against this software? Or are you going to get
| infected with it no matter what phone/OS you use??
| lrem wrote:
| Do not use a smartphone seems to be the only answer. NSO seems
| to have the skill and resources to keep that pipeline of 0days
| going.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Pardon the snark, but this appears to be a case for Marian
| Banas[0] a.k.a. Banasman - exactly the kind of hero we deserve.
|
| [0] Chief of the Supreme Audit Office who was originally
| appointed by the ruling party to be loyal, but not exactly
| competent. Once the internal conflicts in the party spilled over
| to his family he found his redemption arc - and what an arc it
| is!
| kubanczyk wrote:
| > On Thursday, Amnesty International independently verified
| Citizen Lab's finding that Sen. Krzysztof Brejza was hacked
| multiple times in 2019 when he was running the opposition's
| parliamentary election campaign.
|
| How is it not a Watergate? They used Pegasus on the leader of the
| most important election campaign in the last 7 years in Poland.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _How is it not a Watergate?_
|
| There was irrefutable proof that Nixon ordered the break into
| DNC headquarters and then covered it up. We have proof Brejza
| was hacked. To become Watergate, we need proof the government
| ordered it.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| There isn't really proof Nixon ordered the break in, though
| that's because he created and funded a group to do such
| things without his knowledge. They still had strong ties to
| Nixon and he did attempt to cover-up the break in.
| petre wrote:
| Don't worry, further evidence will appear, but nobody's
| getting impeached or resigning, because this is Poland in
| 2022, only 32 years out if communism, not the USA in 1974, a
| 200 year old well consolidated democracy.
| pzduniak wrote:
| How is proving that politicians and their families are stealing
| millions from the country's budget / EU funds, while denying
| access to anyone affiliated with the opposition, not "a
| Watergate"?
|
| That's just a normal day for us in Poland. People who vote for
| Law and Justice do not care the law (which has been already
| changed to serve their interests) nor the justice (which is
| also nearly fully controlled by them at this point). As long as
| it pisses off the other side, it's OK with them. Oh, and the
| Catholic Church is helping them, because they also get a cut.
| legutierr wrote:
| > Oh, and the Catholic Church is helping them, because they
| also get a cut.
|
| With the acquiescence of the Pope, or is he turning a blind
| eye to this?
| Jorengarenar wrote:
| I've already met a fanatic priest who called Pope a
| heretic, so... you know
| scotty79 wrote:
| Popes don't tend to be sharp sighted individuals as various
| church scandals indicate.
| lostlogin wrote:
| Isn't it more likely that the popes are plenty sharp and
| part of the versions scandals?
| scotty79 wrote:
| Probably not. Ignorance (including willful) is usualy
| more probable explanation.
| pzduniak wrote:
| I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with the institution to
| give a proper response. To me, many of their (Polish
| Episcopate's) actions are illogical and a net loss to the
| community they're supposed to foster.
|
| I don't think that the Vatican necessarily has that much
| power over the Polish Episcopate. It seems like they
| operate as an association of non-profits all across the
| world and every single organization operates independently,
| within a rough framework.
|
| I live in one of the largest cities, haven't ever really
| been a church-goer. Going through all the sacraments was
| just a traditional thing you'd do. A decade ago, I don't
| remember hearing anything political in my local church.
| Sure, I heard some pretty obnoxious homophobic stuff, saw
| "exorcisms", but it was always somewhat neutral. However
| over the past few years, I've heard a lot of stories about
| rabid priests demonizing "the other side" (be it the other
| parties, "the LGBT plague" etc.), saying that the only way
| towards salvation is voting for PiS. Maybe it was a very
| vocal minority that was amplified by the media (look,
| priest X is doing this stuff! how terrible!). Eventually it
| seemed like that behaviour was normalized and the attitude
| of the people towards the Church became even more
| radicalized.
|
| Right now, the percentage of people who claim they're
| religious is plummeting. People who disagree with PiS (and
| the behaviour of the Church) are pulling their kids from
| "Religion" / Catechesis lessons, mostly in large cities. In
| my community, the schools have to group up multiple classes
| to even have groups of 10. How do you fight it? Well, you
| give a ton of funding to "patriotic causes", which are
| primarily promoting Catholicism, militarism / far-right,
| nationalistic narratives (the government is contributing to
| this now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB2XRK_Xb6g).
|
| The trade-off seems to be replacing your average church-
| goes / people who only go to the church for baptisms /
| First Communion / marriages, with Polish "patriots" -
| nationalists full of hatred towards anyone who's not white,
| religious and preferably voting for the Populist-
| Nationalists or Conservative-Liberals (who banded up with
| actual neonazis???). Arguably, I think that financially it
| could be a net positive for the Episcopate - they're
| getting public funding (for now) and possibly acquiring
| new, radicalized, loyal followers.
|
| Disclaimer: It probably _is_ a very loud minority.
| Unfortunately it's also the minority that appears to
| control the Church leadership. I feel sorry for the
| legitimately honest and good people I met through the
| Church, who are now getting grouped up with xenophobes.
| throwaway123x2 wrote:
| Oof sounds like such a weird thing to happen in Poland of
| all places... I mean you guys saw first hand what
| xenophobia and fascism do in WW2. Poland should be the
| bastion of western liberalism, not whatever it is
| becoming now...
| vasco wrote:
| And then they had to endure another few decades of
| occupation, putting them behind the rest of western
| Europe and creating a feeling of abandonment by the rest
| of Europe. It's common to forget that for some countries
| WW2 lasted in the form of occupation all the way up to
| 1989.
| SauciestGNU wrote:
| My perception from outside is that large swaths of Polish
| Catholics refuse to recognize this Pope's legitimacy,
| because they disagree with his politics.
| a9WA7dLVnwcquge wrote:
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| > How is it not a Watergate?
|
| Didn't Trump complain his campaign was spied on too. Deep state
| will do what it will in every country. Politician change, but
| lifelong bureaucrats remain. Sometimes its not clear who really
| runs the show even. You can't assumed based on who is the
| figurehead on TV.
| scotty79 wrote:
| Trump is not exactly trustworthy narrator about anything. If
| independent Canadian researcher discovered Trump was spied on
| I suspect it would be a different story.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| That really depends who "they" are, doesn't it? Spying is
| usually done on important people, not random nobodies.
| atleta wrote:
| The article above is about the Polish ruling party. "They"
| logically means exactly them (the Polish Ruling party and/or
| the Polish state which, I guess, is mostly controlled by the
| said party).
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| Virtually no officials were dismissed during the rule of PiS
| after a scandal. Their electorate does not have an issue with
| that. They are Poland's Trump, but much worse.
| hammock wrote:
| What do you believe was better about Trump?
| Jorengarenar wrote:
| Many compared Trump to Hitler. Kaczynski took more lessons
| from Stalin
| scotty79 wrote:
| People around him ignored him as much as possible.
|
| In Poland, president, both chambers of the parliament,
| constitutional court and state prosecutor are all Trumps.
| garaetjjte wrote:
| Correction: PiS doesn't currently have majority in the
| upper house of parliament. (upper house doesn't have much
| power though)
| krzyk wrote:
| He lost elections.
| kahrl wrote:
| > _Their electorate does not have an issue with that._
|
| How can you place blame on the electorate? People don't have
| a say in right-wing theocratic ultranationalist authoritarian
| regimes.
| petre wrote:
| They voted for PiS time and time again. Any party with the
| words "justice" and "law" in it are probably fascists that
| would cling to power by any means necessary. Look at
| Turkey's AKP.
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| PiS literally guides its policy after what would be
| favorable in polls.
| dahfizz wrote:
| > People don't have a say in right-wing theocratic
| ultranationalist authoritarian regimes.
|
| Except, you know, if the "right-wing theocratic
| ultranationalist authoritarian regime" is democratically
| elected over and over.
| lmilcin wrote:
| Bought covertly for a large sum of money with intention not to
| use it.
| atleta wrote:
| Well, our beloved Hungarian government never made this mistake. I
| don't mean buying and using Pegasus against opposition
| politicians and journalists, which they obviously did, but
| admitting that they have it. (Except for one well known idiot who
| is a prominent founding member of the governing party, Fidesz,
| and regularly gets confused and spills the beans when journalists
| question him. Not that _any_ Fidesz member or government official
| would talk to the press except for exceptional occasions.)
|
| EDIT: typos.
| dylan604 wrote:
| so in other words, "beloved Hungarian gov't never made this
| mistake, except when it did"
| atleta wrote:
| I was being ironic: they never made the mistake to
| intentionally admit it. But yes, they ended up admitting
| unintentionally which they redacted pretty quickly and tried
| to explain away. This includes the guy who ended up admitting
| it in the first place. (Named Lajos Kosa, JFTR.)
| dylan604 wrote:
| maybe i should have prepended the word Comrade to it?
| FpUser wrote:
| >"The interview follows exclusive reports by The Associated Press
| that Citizen Lab, a cyber watchdog group at the University of
| Toronto, found that three Polish government critics were hacked
| with NSO's Pegasus.
|
| On Thursday, Amnesty International independently verified Citizen
| Lab's finding that Sen. Krzysztof Brejza was hacked multiple
| times in 2019 when he was running the opposition's parliamentary
| election campaign.
|
| Text messages stolen from Brejza's phone were doctored and aired
| by state-controlled TV in Poland as part of a smear campaign in
| the heat of the race, which the populist ruling party went on to
| narrowly win."
|
| How come this is not prosecuted criminally?
| jakub_g wrote:
| PiS controls, via their puppets: the parliamentary majority,
| the president, all ministries, the attorney general, the
| courts, the supreme court, public TV and radio, all important
| companies in important sectors (oil, gas), most of regional
| radios and press, schools etc.
|
| They ignore the law on daily basis without blinking an eye,
| spend money like there's no tomorrow (often throwing tens of
| millions into mud), pass hastily written laws after midnight,
| and are extremely arrogant with everything they do. They don't
| talk with free press anymore, or if they do, they repeat
| scheduled sentences sent in the morning by sms from the
| leadership. They don't answer the questions; they talk
| monologue. There was no such arrogance in power in Poland ever,
| even under communist rule.
|
| The only things they don't control are: senate (48-52), and
| presidents of big cities + regions; but they steadily amend the
| laws and funding to make the regions weaker and centralize the
| power further.
|
| They have almost absolute power at this point, and the only way
| someone will get prosecuted until they stay in power is someone
| who tries to threaten their status quo; however since their
| parliamentary majority is minimal, they're hiding under the
| carpet everything they can to avoid losing the 51%.
| surfingdino wrote:
| Difficult to do when the prosecutor general is potentially
| facing a case against himself in the ICC
| https://www.politico.eu/article/roman-giertych-donald-tusk-p...
| garaetjjte wrote:
| Attorney general Ziobro (which is even more right-wing radical
| than core PiS) have extensive powers over prosecution. Any
| prosecutor who would take up this case will likely be delegated
| to work on other side of country, and case taken over by Ziobro
| puppets.
| Lorak_ wrote:
| By whom?
| FpUser wrote:
| If the victim files criminal complaint to whatever their
| attorney general office is called should not it be actionable
| items by definition?
| isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote:
| The very first thing PiS did was illegally replace supreme
| court judges.
| yosito wrote:
| I don't have any extensive knowledge of the situation, but it
| seems to me, in the modern world, the only governments NOT using
| software to spy on political opponents are governments that
| aren't competent enough. The only ones that you hear about are
| the ones that are competent enough to do it, but not quite
| competent enough to hide it.
|
| Having been raised in the 80 and 90s when we still considered
| Watergate to be a scandal, I find this kind of spying to be an
| undemocratic abuse of power. But it's the reality we live in now.
| Most wars these days are wars of knowledge and spying on
| opponents is, unfortunately, no longer a scandal, but the reality
| of modern power struggles.
| nathell wrote:
| The funny thing is that up until Kaczynski openly admitted to the
| authorities using Pegasus, the authorities would respond to the
| accusations with derisive comments about a game console.
|
| Why a game console, of all things? Well, back in the early 1990s
| here in Poland, a local Nintendo NES/Famicom clone called Pegasus
| [1] was a thing among the kids. A hit, indeed.
|
| Here's [2] the deputy Minister of Justice dismissing the
| accusations in this regard, a few days ago.
|
| Except the photo posted by him doesn't even depict Pegasus the
| console. It's another Famicom clone, whose chassis is a rip-off
| of the design of the PS One (2000).
|
| [1]: https://culture.pl/en/article/pegasus-other-famiclones-
| how-p...
|
| [2]: https://twitter.com/MWosPL/status/1477938410849452034
| praptak wrote:
| To make it more interesting, Poland's biggest newspaper makes
| quite a solid case that the purchase was funded via embezzlement
| [0] (Polish only).
|
| Kaczynski dismissed the misappropriation of the funds as "mere
| technicality".
|
| [0] https://wyborcza.pl/7,75398,27956090,klamstwa-w-sprawie-
| pega...
| woah wrote:
| At what point does the EU start to look pretty illiberal for
| tolerating this?
| nyokodo wrote:
| Or, when does the EU start looking powerless to stop it.
| jstummbillig wrote:
| At the point, where the EU is more dependent on Poland being
| in the EU, than Poland is on being in the EU. That seems a
| little far fetched at the moment.
|
| Then again, that didn't stop the UK.
| hammock wrote:
| Illiberal = tolerant?
| pxeger1 wrote:
| Illiberal, as in not supporting human liberties, by
| tolerating the authoritarian Polish government. It confused
| me too.
| hammock wrote:
| I'm still confused where they're asking for a pan-Europe
| government to step in and force a country to cede some of
| its sovereignty to it (the EU) and calling that liberal.
|
| That strikes me as slightly different than, say, a
| coalition breaking up a human rights-violating empire and
| RETURNING democratic sovereignty to its people.
| woah wrote:
| The USA stepped in to stop slavery and then later
| apartheid in the southern states. If they hadn't, I think
| we would think less of them.
| animal_spirits wrote:
| What power does the EU have to bring justice to this? (Asking
| as an American)
| atleta wrote:
| There is Article 7, which can result in the suspension of the
| voting rights of the member state, but it's pretty slow. They
| have also been working on new mechanisms exactly because of
| rule of law violations by some member states (including
| Poland and Hungary). Poland is actually being sanctioned,
| AFAIK, for 1M EUR/day as of now for some violation. I think
| it's related to their restrictive abortion laws (and they are
| ignoring the ruling of the European Court, or something like
| that).
|
| This is besides withholding the funds, which have been
| mentioned by others and which is happening to Hungary as of
| now. They are withholding 7.2 billion EURs of the
| reconstruction fund due to claims of high corruption and an
| inadequate legal structure and thus control over how it's
| being spent. (I.e. they can't see the guarantees that a
| sizeable chunk of it won't be stolen and/or spent on things
| other than what it's intended for.) And it is, indeed a
| direct consequence (one of the direct consequences) of the
| lack of adequate rule of law. No wonder: the very reason
| these guys dismantle democracy is to seize more power, keep
| the power and to steal us much as they can. (Which is,
| besides the obvious personal motivations, is a requisite for
| operating their power structure.)
|
| EDIT: typos.
| dahfizz wrote:
| What power does the EU have to collect fines if Poland
| refuses to pay? Genuine question.
| vasco wrote:
| EU gives Poland loads of money every year. Just stop the
| money faucet.
| garaetjjte wrote:
| >Poland is actually being sanctioned, AFAIK, for 1M EUR/day
| as of now for some violation.
|
| That's 0.5M/day related to dispute with Czechs over
| environmental impact of Turow mine. It seems PiS strategy
| for negotiating with Czechs is just completely ignoring
| them, which lead ECJ to impose fines.
| atleta wrote:
| Then there are multiple parallel sanctions. There is a
| 1M/day one as well and it's related to the rule of law. I
| was wrong, it's not about the abortion act but about the
| independence of courts [1] [2]. (As far as I can
| understand they created a system where judges can be
| disciplined and that is deemed to allow political control
| over them and their decisions.)
|
| [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-top-court-
| orders-pol... [2]
| https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-top-court-orders-
| pol...
| scyzoryk_xyz wrote:
| Not abortion laws, we're being fined for the unlawful
| constitutionally judiciary reforms which were done in 2015
| when they took power. PiS (Law and Justice) leader has been
| obsessed with this idea for decades. By basically jamming
| the constitutional tribunal Jaroslaw Kaczynski has grabbed
| the entire judiciary system by the balls, which in many
| complex ways cements PiS power into place. My understanding
| has been that also the EU has considered withdrawing EU
| funding to apply pressure, but they can't really because
| they're worried that PiS would then hypnotize Poles into
| asking for PolExit. You couldn't make this shit up. The
| abortion is a whole other subject here you don't even wanna
| know -\\_(tth_tth)_/-
| pzduniak wrote:
| They can only withhold the funds, which they're already
| doing. We'll see how that plays out over the next few months.
| jstummbillig wrote:
| The EU usually handles EU law violations by member states
| with economic sanctions.
| jollybean wrote:
| There are many legal recourses because their are rules about
| being part of the EU.
|
| They can also threaten to drop susidizies and to kick them
| out.
|
| I'm actually hugely wary of EU interfering in state affairs,
| because the EU is not some 'magical good guy' - they're just
| usually 'somewhat gooder'.
|
| In particular, Poland refuted the ECJ as having ultimate
| authority over local courts, the EU threw a huge fuss - but
| Poland has substantial backing for that: there is nothing in
| the treaties which indicate ECJ has said authority. At the
| very same time, the issue is not resolved even in Germany,
| and the German high courts are thinking of pressing a case.
| Since Germany is the 'centre of the EU' - and - there are
| gaping holes in the true legal authority of the ECJ for
| certain things, it's not a war that the EU wants to get into.
| It could tear a mile wide hole in the legal fabric of the EU.
| That said: I wish the would do it because the situation is
| unconscionable and almost nobody is aware of it.
|
| Using Pegasus to spy on political opponents however, is a
| bridge way, way too far. Poland is not going to have a leg to
| stand on either moral, populist, legal, treaty etc. - there's
| just no argument they can make.
|
| I think the EU should put a lot of heft behind this issue
| though.
|
| Finally, bit of a caveat, it could be that other EU states
| are using the same or similar tech to do 'similar kinds of
| things' - those EU states are not going to want to be
| embarrassed by public knowledge or airing of that. So that
| could be a problem.
| MiroF wrote:
| > I'm actually hugely wary of EU interfering in state
| affairs, because the EU is not some 'magical good guy' -
| they're just usually 'somewhat gooder'.
|
| I trust the French/German political tradition a lot more
| than I trust Poland's
| krzyk wrote:
| I trust UK more (they didn't wave white flags like crazy
| nor they didn't start two world wars). It is a pity they
| are out now.
| iam-TJ wrote:
| As a Brit and in the interest of accuracy, Britain
| declared war on Germany both in 1914 [0] and 1939 [1]
| after an ultimatum to Germany expired. So technically
| 'we' did "start" the WORLD WARs (if we hadn't declared
| war it is debatable war would have spread to the rest of
| the world (at least immediately)).
|
| [0] 23:00 August 4th 1914, in response to the invasion of
| Belgium by Germany.
|
| [1] 11:00 September 3rd 1939, in response to the invasion
| of Poland by Germany.
| dahfizz wrote:
| Why draw the line of causation there? That seems a bit
| ridiculous. France had issued the same ultimatum, and
| declared war just a few hours later.
|
| Both France and Britian were obligated by treaty to
| defend Poland. Germany started the conflict, and knew
| full well that they would force other countries to get
| involved. To claim otherwise is counter-factual.
|
| If you punch a police officer in his face, and his
| partner knocks you out, you can't claim the partner
| started the fight.
| [deleted]
| harpersealtako wrote:
| I would consider it as such already. Federations are ultimately
| responsible for the failures and flaws of their constituent
| states if they have the power to prevent them. Nobody considers
| the US federal government entirely free of blame when a US
| state passes an illiberal or undemocratic law (e.g. Jim Crow
| laws), and neither should EU be absolved of responsibility in
| properly enforcing EU laws in places like Poland and Hungary.
| tryptophan wrote:
| The EU is not a federal state.
| harpersealtako wrote:
| It IS a federation, and regardless of what you call it, the
| fact is that the EU has the ability to control and limit
| its rogue members to protect human rights, and chooses not
| to exercise this power in many cases. The EU is to blame
| for this and can be considered illiberal in this regard
| because it does not adequately prevent its constituent
| states from passing laws that infringe on citizens'
| fundamental rights.
| Krasnol wrote:
| Not paywalled source:
| https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/polish-leader...
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