[HN Gopher] A public letter to CloudFlare to fix their snoopy ve...
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       A public letter to CloudFlare to fix their snoopy vendor
        
       Author : captn3m0
       Score  : 371 points
       Date   : 2022-01-07 15:08 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (github.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
        
       | Zdh4DYsGvdjJ wrote:
       | Why not use Github Pages without Cloudflare? It also supports
       | native IPv6 if that was the reason.
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28710629
        
       | 0xdeadb00f wrote:
       | Are there alternatives to this service CF provides?
        
       | r1ch wrote:
       | Glad to see this getting attention. Flexible SSL is an awful
       | option that has no place in the modern encrypted web. Out of the
       | four SSL options Cloudflare gives users, only one is actually
       | secure. It's a huge foot-gun.
        
         | jrochkind1 wrote:
         | I assume you mean only ` Full (strict)` is secure, and not even
         | `Full`?
         | 
         | I happened to be recently looking at putting cloudflare in
         | front of an S3 bucket, and it looked maybe easier/more feasible
         | to do with `Full` instead of `Full (Strict)` -- because you can
         | skip configuring the S3 bucket have an SSL cert for your actual
         | front-facing domain (which can be cumbersome and/or more
         | expensive to set up) and just let CloudFlare connect to it as
         | `*.s3.aws.com` or whatever. As long as CloudFlare is actually
         | requiring a trusted cert for *.s3.aws.com, are there security
         | implications I'm missing for why this is a bad idea? (I guess
         | AWS or someone with the keys to AWS certs could be spoofing
         | you? Anything else?)
         | 
         | Or in general even without reference to this use case, explain
         | vulnerability examples/threat models for `Full` without
         | `Strict`?
        
           | sirshmooey wrote:
           | Just use a free Cloudflare Origin CA certificate and set to
           | strict. Encryption for the whole round trip unless someone
           | accesses origin server directly.
           | 
           | https://developers.cloudflare.com/ssl/origin-
           | configuration/o...
        
             | jrochkind1 wrote:
             | But now do I have no way to access the S3 bucket _not_
             | through cloudflare?
        
           | r1ch wrote:
           | Full does not check certificates, so a MITM can supply any
           | untrusted certificate and intercept your traffic. Only Full
           | (Strict) does trusted cert checking.
        
             | ewuhic wrote:
             | "Can" theoretically, or there's a valid attack vector which
             | one may pull off immediately in the wild?
        
               | captn3m0 wrote:
               | The current Airtel scenario is a good demonstration I'd
               | say.
        
               | r1ch wrote:
               | Cloudflare terminates SSL at the point closest to the
               | user, so any of the ISPs between Cloudflare's POP and the
               | origin could MITM the traffic. Normally an untrusted MITM
               | cert would throw up a TLS error, but since the Cloudflare
               | <-> End User part is trusted, a MITM attack with anything
               | but Full (Strict) is undetectable to an end user.
               | 
               | There's plenty of examples of ISPs trying this in the
               | wild: https://www.zdnet.com/article/kazakhstan-
               | government-is-now-i... https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/
               | comments/4vy3op/my_isp_is_...
               | https://superuser.com/questions/176651/isp-replaces-ssl-
               | cert...
        
             | jrochkind1 wrote:
             | Huh, I didn't realize Full didn't check certs _at all_.
             | 
             | Why don't they have a mode that checks that the cert is
             | valid for hostname that you _have configured cloudflare to
             | access_ (which *.s3.amazonaws.com already has), rather than
             | for the end-point that the destination isn 't actually
             | answering on directly itself? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding
             | what was up, have to mess with it more.
        
         | btown wrote:
         | On the contrary, the idea that a mom-and-pop shop running an
         | HTTP website on some ancient shared hosting can easily just
         | drop in Cloudflare is a Good Thing. Sure, you're not removing
         | the attack surface, a state actor could intercept the server-
         | to-server connections... but at least the hacked router in your
         | customers' coffee shop is removed from the threat model. You
         | make it any tougher, and that HTTP website is just going to
         | stay HTTP forever.
        
           | r1ch wrote:
           | The downside of such a setup is that as a user, I now have no
           | idea if the site is actually secure. If the mom-and-pop shop
           | is taking credit card orders and has a secure Cloudflare
           | cert, how do I know they aren't then transmitting my credit
           | card number and other personal data unencrypted the rest of
           | the way? If the website was HTTP I would know as a user not
           | to enter sensitive info.
           | 
           | This is why I think flexible SSL is worse than no SSL.
           | Cloudflare's own docs used to say Flexible SSL "should only
           | be used as a last resort if you are not able to setup SSL on
           | your own web server, but it is less secure than any other
           | option (even "Off")" (this has since been removed).
        
             | marginalia_nu wrote:
             | > The downside of such a setup is that as a user, I now
             | have no idea if the site is actually secure.
             | 
             | You never do. SSL is not sufficient for security. It
             | protects against a single attack vector, that's if it's set
             | up correctly. For all you know, the set up of the server
             | your visiting might have be old enough to have a driver's
             | license, with public SSH and the root password "12345".
        
           | captn3m0 wrote:
           | Hence, my recommendation of a "Big Red Warning" on picking
           | anything lower than Strict SSL.
           | 
           | A user must knowingly choose this option, and many websites
           | which picked Flexible SSL could easily be upgraded to Strict
           | SSL today. CloudFlare must work towards upgrading these
           | users, especially where it can easily identify that SSL is
           | supported at the origin server (such as Shopify, GitHub etc).
        
       | kiririn wrote:
       | In the early 2010s for a couple of years all Cloudflare websites
       | would sometimes fail to load on my home connection - 20% or so of
       | page loads would hit a strange error, some sort of tcp or ssl
       | issue
       | 
       | It's good to see others experience the downside of centralising
       | the internet. Until reading this, it seemed like everyone blindly
       | loves cloudflare.
        
       | adhipics wrote:
        
       | AtNightWeCode wrote:
       | Ages ago Cloudflare started to advice against these kinds of
       | setups. I did not even know it was still possible. TLS
       | termination on the edge services is just stupid.
        
         | oefrha wrote:
         | TLS termination on the edge services wasn't stupid back when
         | crappy vendors (Github Pages included) didn't support TLS.
         | GitHub Pages only added TLS for custom domains in 2018.
        
         | samwillis wrote:
         | Disagree. TLS terminated at the edge, by a trusted partner, is
         | perfectly valid and in many cases a great plus. You should,
         | however, then always have a tls connection back to the main
         | host, this is obviously not always the case and is wrong.
         | Ideally CloudFlare would not make it possible.
         | 
         | By terminating at the edge it enables many useful features of
         | services such as CloudFlare that would otherwise not be
         | possible such as the "web application firewall".
         | 
         | If you think of CloudFlare as a hosting provider in the same
         | way as any other (which they are) it ridiculous not to trust
         | them terminating TLS.
        
           | AtNightWeCode wrote:
           | TLS termination in the sense that you terminate TLS and then
           | send the traffic to the origins without encryption.
           | Cloudflare services basically works at layer 7 so they must
           | decrypt all the traffic.
        
             | samwillis wrote:
             | Ah, your original comment was not clear, we agree then.
             | 
             | I'm just frustrated by the bandwagoning criticism of any
             | use of CloudFlare and the suggestion anyone using them is
             | MITM their own visitors, when clearly they are just another
             | part of your own infrastructure (when used correctly). Your
             | comment "TLS termination on the edge services is just
             | stupid" made me think you were doing that.
        
               | alisonkisk wrote:
        
       | adhipics wrote:
        
       | ushakov wrote:
       | what are the use-cases for cloudflare in front of GitHub pages?
        
         | whymarrh wrote:
         | GitHub Pages also doesn't (yet) support custom headers and you
         | can add them with Cf via Workers. So if you're concerned about
         | the results of securityheaders.io, for example, you can add
         | those in.
        
         | BillinghamJ wrote:
         | This is answered quite clearly in the linked page.
         | 
         | GitHub Pages originally didn't support SSL on custom domains,
         | so people would often put Cloudflare in front of it.
         | 
         | Now GHP does support SSL on custom domains, so Cloudflare is no
         | longer needed, but obviously a lot of sites still exist with
         | the original setup.
        
           | MaulingMonkey wrote:
           | > GitHub Pages originally didn't support SSL on custom
           | domains, so people would often put Cloudflare in front of it.
           | 
           | I've done this myself and I'm fixing it now!
           | 
           | (Some JavaScript APIs I've experimented with over the years
           | require HTTPS - from WebAuthn, which hey, fair enough - to
           | Web MIDI, which hey, what the heck?
           | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
           | US/docs/Web/Security/Secure... )
        
             | notRobot wrote:
             | Even the webcam API requires HTTPS, I _guess_ that makes
             | sense?
        
               | ameliaquining wrote:
               | If it didn't, then whenever you visited a non-HTTPS site,
               | an MITM could inject code into the page that turns your
               | webcam on and then spies on you. Permission prompts help
               | somewhat with this, but not really enough, given that the
               | address bar provides no clue that you're not talking to
               | who you think you are (beyond the generic "Not secure"
               | warning that users usually ignore since it's so common).
               | Allowing this would be a total disaster for user privacy.
        
             | ameliaquining wrote:
             | Web MIDI isn't for playing .mid files in the browser. It's
             | for letting in-browser JavaScript talk to arbitrary
             | hardware devices that speak the MIDI protocol; this
             | includes not only things like keyboards and synthesizers,
             | but also stage lighting systems and other theatrical
             | devices that use MIDI as a control protocol (so that you
             | can have, e.g., lighting and sound cues happen in sync,
             | because they're all centrally controlled by a single
             | computer). In general, any API that controls hardware
             | counts as security-sensitive; you don't want MITMs to be
             | able to hijack your hardware devices and make them do
             | something bad.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | tananaev wrote:
         | GitHub has a traffic limit. If you serve mostly static data,
         | Cloudflare can cache most of it, so you stay within GitHub
         | limits.
        
       | adhipics wrote:
        
       | p0cc wrote:
       | These are the five SSL options for a Cloudflare website [0]:
       | 
       | 1. No SSL: User <--HTTP--> Cloudflare <--HTTP--> Origin Server
       | 
       | 2. Flexible SSL: User <--HTTPS--> Cloudflare <--HTTP--> Origin
       | Server
       | 
       | 3. Full SSL: User <--HTTPS--> Cloudflare <--HTTPS--> Origin
       | Server; Self-signed cert ok, expired cert ok
       | 
       | 4. Full SSL (strict): User <--HTTPS--> Cloudflare <--HTTPS-->
       | Origin Server; Origin server must use an SSL certificate that
       | Cloudflare provides [1]
       | 
       | 5. Strict (SSL-Only Origin Pull): User <--HTTPS--> Cloudflare
       | <--HTTPS--> Origin Server; same as Full SSL (strict), but you pay
       | need to pay Cloudflare more money
       | 
       | ---
       | 
       | 3 and above will fix this issue as they encrypt from Cloudflare
       | to the Origin Server.
       | 
       | This is the traffic flow from the link:
       | 
       | User -> Cloudflare -> Airtel -> GitHub Pages
       | 
       | Where the connection with flexible SSL is Cloudflare <--HTTP-->
       | GitHub Pages.
       | 
       | Upgrading to Full SSL (or higher) and using HTTPS on GitHub [2]
       | should fix.
       | 
       | ---
       | 
       | Alternatively, deploy your static website with Cloudflare Pages
       | [3], which has feature parity with Github Pages.
       | 
       | The flow would then be: User <--HTTPS--> Cloudflare Pages
       | 
       | [0]: https://developers.cloudflare.com/ssl/origin-
       | configuration/s...
       | 
       | [1]: https://developers.cloudflare.com/ssl/origin-
       | configuration/o...
       | 
       | [2]: https://docs.github.com/en/pages/getting-started-with-
       | github...
       | 
       | [3]: https://pages.cloudflare.com/
       | 
       | EDIT: The replies by kentonv, x1110dc, and r1ch all have valid
       | points.
        
         | kentonv wrote:
         | > 5. Strict (SSL-Only Origin Pull): User <--HTTPS--> Cloudflare
         | <--HTTPS--> Origin Server; same as Full SSL (strict), but you
         | pay need to pay Cloudflare more money
         | 
         | The difference in this mode is that even if the client connects
         | to Cloudflare using HTTP, Cloudflare will connect to the origin
         | using HTTPS. In all other modes, if the client connects by
         | HTTP, then Cloudflare will connect to origin by HTTP.
         | 
         | Of course, most people these days enable "HTTPS only", in which
         | case Cloudflare will redirect HTTP clients to HTTPS and
         | therefore not make any connection to the origin at all for HTTP
         | clients.
        
         | r1ch wrote:
         | Note that while option 3 will fix this particular issue
         | (because they only seem to care about port 80), it doesn't stop
         | them from MITMing the connection with their own self-signed
         | cert in the future. Only options 4 and 5 ensure a fully secure
         | SSL connection.
        
         | x110dc wrote:
         | For #4 (strict full) the origin server doesn't have to use a
         | Cloudflare-supplied cert. Any cert issued by a publicly trusted
         | CA will do. See https://developers.cloudflare.com/ssl/origin-
         | configuration/s...
        
           | Aulig wrote:
           | Exactly, I've been doing this with letsencrypt.
        
             | creeble wrote:
             | How do you get certbot to work? Or do you renew manually or
             | something?
        
               | Matt3o12_ wrote:
               | Getting it to work the first time was a pain. Basically,
               | you want to disable cloudflare (just untick the box so
               | that it goes directly to your server, you can keep using
               | cloudflare's dns server), then obtain the normal way, and
               | reactivate Cloudflare. But I would highly recommend using
               | cerbot's cloduflare dns plugin[1] instead so that you can
               | (re)create the certificate w/o disabling cloudflare.
               | 
               | 1: https://certbot-dns-
               | cloudflare.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
        
               | gh123man wrote:
               | I just went though this. you need to whitelist the acme-
               | challenge (using page rules) like this:
               | *example.com/.well-known/acme-challenge/*       Disable
               | Security, SSL: Off, Cache Level: Bypass, Automatic HTTPS
               | Rewrites: Off
               | 
               | and one big gotcha:                 Under SSL/TLS -> Edge
               | Certificates -> disable Always Use HTTPS
               | 
               | (assuming you are using the HTTP-01 challenge).
        
       | amingilani wrote:
       | Cloudflare powered censorship in Pakistan works in a similar
       | fashion. ISPs block websites, but because Cloudflare's data
       | center forwards using local ISPs, you get a nice secure blocked
       | page.
        
         | captn3m0 wrote:
         | I did come across several reports from Pakistani users as well
         | while researching for this today.
         | 
         | Do these ISPs limit themselves to court-ordered blocks in your
         | case?
        
         | 0xbkt wrote:
         | Same here in Turkey. But this one is an int'l transit provider.
         | 
         | Posted this[0] months ago, even sent emails to Cloudflare NOC
         | multiple times and nobody did even care.
         | 
         | [0] https://community.cloudflare.com/t/censored-pop-orpheus-
         | not-...
        
       | lbotos wrote:
       | Feedback: I might suggest changing "Now Resolved/ Not Resolved"
       | to Resolved/Broken. This could help with readability as right now
       | there is 1 char difference and it took me a few times to parse.
        
         | captn3m0 wrote:
         | The column was quite misleading, as "resolved" doesn't mean
         | that airtel is no longer trying to block it. (it's trying, but
         | failing).
         | 
         | As such, I've just dropped the column.
        
       | tomklein wrote:
       | What if the site owners change their SSL settings to Full SSL
       | though?
        
         | r1ch wrote:
         | Full isn't actually enough to secure this - with their MITM
         | position, Airtel could send an untrusted certificate and
         | continue to intercept and modify traffic. Full (Strict) is the
         | only safe option.
        
         | captn3m0 wrote:
         | It fixes the issue, and that has been the recommended fix I've
         | been offering developers all this while.
        
           | paco3346 wrote:
           | So really website owners are just misusing Cloudflare? How is
           | this Cloudflare's fault?
        
             | captn3m0 wrote:
             | In this case, it is not a random party in the CloudFlare--
             | GitHub connection (say a network operator in UK).
             | 
             | The snooping intermediary (Airtel) in this scenario is one
             | that has a commercial relationship with CloudFlare and
             | powers CloudFlare's network.
             | 
             | CloudFlare has been aware of this issue for years, but it
             | hasn't done anything to get its vendor to fix their
             | network.
        
               | celsoazevedo wrote:
               | Isn't the censorship applied by Airtel, Jio, etc, because
               | of local laws?
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Indi
               | a
               | 
               | I don't see how Cloudflare or any other provider can make
               | Airtel "fix" the snooping when Airtel is forced by law to
               | block those sites.
               | 
               | This seems to be a policy/government problem, not a
               | Cloudflare or Airtel problem.
        
             | r1ch wrote:
             | 2 of the 4 SSL options Cloudflare provides will give a nice
             | lock icon in your address bar and HTTPS will all look like
             | it's working fine, but the connection to the origin is
             | still insecure. It's very misleading and IMO irresponsible
             | of Cloudflare to offer these options.
        
             | ameliaquining wrote:
             | Well, they're sending packets to an upstream ISP that then
             | does the wrong thing with them. They certainly have more
             | leverage to get that upstream ISP to clean up its act than
             | their customers do.
             | 
             | More broadly, if enabling a particular Cloudflare feature
             | (in this case, Flexible SSL) constitutes "misusing
             | Cloudflare", then Cloudflare should simply not offer that
             | feature at all. There's a bit of a balance here; when they
             | introduced it in 2011, a lot of hosts didn't offer HTTPS at
             | all and none of them offered it for free. MITM is genuinely
             | more likely to happen between the end user and Cloudflare
             | than between Cloudflare and the origin server (because the
             | former can involve things like unsecured coffee-shop wifi),
             | so for webmasters who couldn't use end-to-end HTTPS, it
             | provided a real security benefit--which had to be weighed
             | against the cost of telling end users that their connection
             | to the site is secure against interception, when that
             | wasn't entirely true.
             | 
             | I think there's a case to be made that this tradeoff was
             | worth it in 2011 but is not worth it in 2022; today, end-
             | to-end HTTPS can be had for free, and is easy enough that
             | there's usually no excuse not to.
        
               | captn3m0 wrote:
               | Especially when CloudFlare knows that their upstream is
               | specifically targeting a certain class of users, they
               | have a responsibility to fix this and notify their
               | impacted customers.
        
             | [deleted]
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | ceda_ei wrote:
       | I ran into the same issue a few weeks ago.
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29685966
        
       | bratao wrote:
       | Please Cloudflare, I'm a paying customer and have some IPv6 only
       | users that are very frustrated every time they see a Cloudflare
       | challenge page. Your provider, HCaptcha still do not support
       | IPv6. I have to use workarounds like an alternative domain
       | without CF and this is very frustrating.
        
         | cmeacham98 wrote:
         | If you only care about the CDN parts, you can change the
         | security level in the Cloudflare firewall settings to Off and
         | it won't serve any captchas.
        
         | celsoazevedo wrote:
         | Settings >> Firewall >> Settings >> Security Level (Set to
         | "Essentially Off")
        
         | meibo wrote:
         | HCaptcha is the absolute worst, their captchas are consistently
         | harder, the datasets are impossible to decipher and the failure
         | rate is much higher, even if I'm sure that I chose the right
         | options. My parents had no chance last time they ran into one.
         | 
         | CF should have just rolled their own captcha service instead of
         | buying into someone else's public ML training program again.
        
           | eli wrote:
           | reCaptcha is definitely worse, but it goes easy on people
           | logged into a google account.
        
         | ahupp wrote:
         | It's a little hard for me to believe that there are IPv6-only
         | users out there. Who are these people?
         | 
         | edit: I realize there are plenty users behind NAT64 gateways
         | etc, that's the point: how many users out there have no IPv4
         | connectivity at all?
        
           | jsodw wrote:
           | Your comment has been unfairly downvoted. There are IPv6-only
           | users, but they can access IPv4 servers just fine through
           | transition techniques. Otherwise they'd be unable to access
           | most of the internet. You probably interpreted it as no IPv4
           | connectivity at all, which as you assumed is impossible.
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | JimDabell wrote:
           | It's super common for cellular networks. Apple even has a
           | rule for the App Store to reject any applications that don't
           | work in an IPv6-only environment because of this. They've had
           | this rule for six years.
        
             | jaywalk wrote:
             | Must be smaller providers doing this? In the US, we've got
             | CGNAT IPv4 and regular IPv6 for cellular.
        
               | tedivm wrote:
               | It's driven mostly by adoption outside of the US,
               | particularly in Asia. In 2019 over half of the
               | connections in India were IPv6 (of 475 million devices,
               | 52.49 percent are IPv6 devices, according to the APNIC
               | report).
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | jsodw wrote:
             | That's not the whole story. Your service doesn't need to be
             | accessible through ipv6. Just over 464XLAT. That won't be a
             | problem if you use high level system apis to make
             | connections. All of my servers are ipv4-only and I haven't
             | had any apps rejected by apple.
        
               | TrueDuality wrote:
               | You're partially right. Your apps need to support IPv6
               | because the internet connections can be IPv6 only. I
               | believe T-Mobile is a big one does this. They do
               | translation for their clients to the IPv4 internet, so
               | they'll be hitting your IPv4 server through a translation
               | layer. The client is still IPv6 only.
        
               | ec109685 wrote:
               | That doesn't make sense. If I hit amazon.com on my
               | browser, which is IPv4 only, t-mobile needs to provide a
               | (private) IPv4 IP to the phone to make that possible.
               | 
               | Edit: was totally wrong about this: https://www.internets
               | ociety.org/resources/deploy360/2014/cas...
               | 
               | iOS (since IOS 12) and Android have native clients that
               | can tunnel IPv4 requests over an IPv6 only network that
               | are used for providers like T-Mobile.
        
               | Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
               | Not necessarily.
               | 
               | T-Mobile could respond to DNS requests with an IPv6
               | address that includes an encoding of Amazon.com's IPv4
               | address in it so that when you try to connect it it, the
               | gateway knows what IP address you're looking for and can
               | do the NATing there.
               | 
               | Of course, this is just conjecture about a possible way
               | of making it work, and it could easily get broken if you
               | configure your phone to use a different DNS server.
        
               | ec109685 wrote:
               | Thanks, that's a good point. Apple talks about it here: h
               | ttps://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/
               | Ne...
        
           | buro9 wrote:
           | People on mobile networks, especially outside of Europe and
           | the US
        
           | hetspookjee wrote:
           | Most users from KPN (largest dutch telco) are stuck with just
           | a IPV6 address. Phoning home is often quite a bit of a
           | challenge.
        
             | gruez wrote:
             | I think the parent poster isn't asking whether you only get
             | an ipv6 address, but rather you only get an ipv6 address
             | without some sort of CGNAT for ipv4
        
           | ajsnigrutin wrote:
           | This is quite common in countries with lots of people and not
           | enough IPs.
           | 
           | ipv6+nat64
        
             | jaywalk wrote:
             | Why don't they use IPv4 with CGNAT in addition to IPv6?
             | That's what the US providers do.
        
               | wmf wrote:
               | NAT64 and NAT44 are both forms of CGNAT; NAT64 can be
               | simpler to deploy.
        
               | ajsnigrutin wrote:
               | You don't need two nats, you don't have to track two
               | types of ip addresses per customer, for most of the
               | traffic, you don't even need nat at all (youtube,
               | facebook, etc, all support native ipv6), and statless
               | nat64 can be simpler and less resource intensive than
               | cgnat
        
           | yolo4553 wrote:
           | > It's a little hard for me to believe that there are
           | IPv6-only users out there
           | 
           | Why is this hard to believe?
           | 
           | IPv4 ran out a while ago depending on which part of the world
           | you are in. New networks do no longer get IPv4 by default.
           | Some can get very small allocations that are barely enough to
           | operate nat64 gateways for a few thousand users. Quite a few
           | networks decided to not invest in legacy IP any more and
           | better spend their (limited) resources on other activities.
           | 
           | > Who are these people?
           | 
           | me + non 1st-world countries.
        
             | wmf wrote:
             | IPv6 without any transition mechanism is not Internet
             | access. It's more like a tenth of the Internet. If an ISP
             | has to buy a few addresses to run NAT64 that's a cost of
             | doing business.
        
               | jchw wrote:
               | What happens when there are literally truly no IPv4
               | addresses left for sale? Not today's reality, but the
               | clock is ticking.
        
               | wmf wrote:
               | There will always be IPv4 for sale just as there is
               | always land for sale.
        
               | teddyh wrote:
               | This is the "oil will never run out" argument.
               | Technically true, but irrelevant.
        
               | wmf wrote:
               | I chose my analogy carefully. Oil is consumed but land
               | and IP addresses are not.
        
               | jchw wrote:
               | You can't really just "find" more IPv4 though. Cloud
               | platforms are eating blocks for breakfast, lunch and
               | dinner, and while it's always going to be for sale,
               | there's no reason to expect you'll be able to afford it.
        
               | wmf wrote:
               | Fortunately, if you can't afford IPv4 then no one else
               | can afford it either, which means the incentive to adopt
               | IPv6 is extremely strong and thus you no longer need
               | IPv4.
        
               | jchw wrote:
               | Existing large ISPs and cloud providers with remaining
               | IPv4 addresses and no IPv6 support are not going to have
               | a strong incentive until after the damage is already
               | done.
        
               | 8organicbits wrote:
               | It works both ways though, doesn't it? If you are IPv4
               | only, you can't access/can't be accessed from the whole
               | internet. If you are IPv6 only, same applies.
        
               | wmf wrote:
               | No, because there is nothing interesting that's
               | IPv6-only.
        
               | tankenmate wrote:
               | That depends a great deal on what country / language is
               | your norm.
        
               | p1mrx wrote:
               | Which country/language has interesting IPv6-only content?
        
               | [deleted]
        
       | blastonico wrote:
       | Poor Snoopy, after a terrible experience at the supermarket, now
       | this! :-(
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD2n7Jiy-xY
        
         | blastonico wrote:
         | Downvoted because of a simple and inoffensive joke that relates
         | to Peanut' Snoopy character. The lords of seriousness don't
         | tolerate humor.
        
       | throwaway888abc wrote:
       | Cloudflare is not doing anything wrong, why to pick that call ?
       | 
       | Airtel support is here https://www.airtel.in/contact-us
       | 
       | Also, vote with your wallet and don't use Airtel ?
        
         | sangeeth96 wrote:
         | Oh but they are. They chose Airtel in their locations. I'm
         | using BSNL as my ISP but my request goes to one of these
         | locations that seems to be using Airtel and I get the same DoT
         | block message.
        
         | captn3m0 wrote:
         | Users who are not Airtel customers are impacted.
        
         | miohtama wrote:
         | Even better: vote for a party that is not BJP? :)
        
           | nodelessness wrote:
           | Yes vote for congress.
        
       | ghostly_s wrote:
       | I read the page and there seems to be nothing to back up the
       | claim that this vendor is "snoopy?"
        
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