[HN Gopher] Procrastinatory Doom Loops
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Procrastinatory Doom Loops
Author : brennancolberg
Score : 486 points
Date : 2022-01-06 03:20 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (brennancolberg.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (brennancolberg.com)
| beambot wrote:
| Highly recommend reading about "Structured Procrastination":
|
| http://structuredprocrastination.com/
| shmde wrote:
| I am more interested in which company the author works for a
| living.
|
| www.synthesis.is
|
| Its like a subsidiary for spacex which teaches kids different
| stuff, it looks quite complicated because its not your average
| classroom teaching but something more ? Does anyone here have
| their kids enrolled in it, tell me about their/kids experience ?
| sanctified384 wrote:
| This is an oldie so many may already know it. But always relevant
| reading for my fellow procrastinators.
|
| Part 1: https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-
| procrasti...
|
| Part 2: https://waitbutwhy.com/2013/11/how-to-beat-
| procrastination.h...
|
| Bonus: https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/03/procrastination-matrix.html
|
| Highly recommended! While I still procrastinate this
| understanding has helped me control my urge tememdously. A true
| gem! (This is also available as a video in Tim Urban's TED talk
| on YouTube)
| romwell wrote:
| I found myself relating to these particular three articles _a
| lot_.
|
| Then, last year, I have learned about ADHD - and, to my
| surprise, realized I'm a textbook example.
|
| There are a lot of resources available for us, and ways to do
| things differently. If you relate to WaitButWhy, check this
| out:
|
| https://romankogan.net/adhd/
|
| And if you find yourself scrolling and relating - there's a
| good change your life will drastically change for the better
| when you get help for ADHD.
| istjohn wrote:
| I just want to say that I think it's awesome that you are
| sharing your personal experience with ADHD here. The stigma
| around mental health does no one any good, and too often when
| ADHD comes up on HN, the loudest voices are people dismissing
| ADHD as a boogeyman that's over-diagnosed. It's important for
| people to know that ADHD is real and too often it isn't even
| diagnosed until adulthood.
| hhmc wrote:
| You don't need to reply to every comment with a link to your
| site.
| romwell wrote:
| FYI, I'm not posting "the" link to my site. I'm linking to
| the specific posts I've written that directly relate to the
| comments I am responding to. I believe my writing is useful
| in such cases - not in the least because _people have
| directly reached out to me to say thanks_.
|
| Just trying to increase the chances that someone stumbles
| upon something that helps them. I don't see many people
| talking about ADHD here.
|
| If public awareness of ADHD was anywhere where it needs to
| be, I wouldn't have spent 34 years living without help.
| imnitishng wrote:
| This was so well written, an eye opener indeed! Thanks
| fmovlex wrote:
| I've added these to my "read later" list.
| Kye wrote:
| I used to get yearly emails from Pocket when I used it saying
| I was in the top single-digit-n% of readers with a word count
| in the low six digits. That's _maybe_ an hour of reading a
| day, which suggest the later never comes for most articles
| saved to Pocket.
|
| These days I accept I don't care enough about most things to
| read articles on it until I get interested, and then it's
| hard to find good reading on it unless I've drilled my well.
| Now I save any interesting-looking article in Notion for when
| I get interested and go searching.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Hehe. Ok. I nearly missed it.
| 10x-dev wrote:
| This was an excellent read. Thank you for sharing the articles.
| InvisibleUp wrote:
| While the analogies in these articles are great, from personal
| experience, the second article's tips on how to beat
| procrastination are abysmal. Yes, breaking large steps into
| small chunks is good advice, but your goal should not be to
| live in a constant state of stress and anxiety by setting up
| "panic monsters". That's just a recipe for getting yourself
| burned out and becoming a "disastinator".
|
| What I would instead suggest is reducing your workload,
| resting, and if that fails to fix the problem, seeing a medical
| professional to check for ADHD or other executive dysfunction
| issues. (It also really does bother me that Tim Urban never
| even _mentioned_ that "procrastination" is known in the
| medical community as "executive dysfunction" and that clinical
| treatments are an option. Not saying that it's the root of all
| procrastination issues, but for major problems, it's worth
| looking at.)
| copperx wrote:
| That's me. And still in the same loop after several ADHD
| medications; this makes me think that it's not something that can
| be solved by a pill.
|
| I hope I can solve this someday. My coping mechanism is to never
| commit to anything (outside work obligations).
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| The pills help but motivation is not some emergent property of
| normality. You first need to care about, and genuinely want to
| do, the task required to accomplish your goals.
|
| I'm a fan of this quote from Steve Jobs - (paraphrasing) "every
| day you wake up and look in the mirror, do you like what you're
| doing that day? If not, it's time to do something else."
|
| The other quote I like is Jeff Bezos and his "picturing myself
| on a rocking chair when I'm 80, do I regret not doing this?"
|
| If you can solve these problems then the pills become just a
| tool to help you execute on the solutions.
|
| Source: Diagnosed with ADHD (because I asked for it - duh, this
| is the only way), never had a real job but fairly happy with my
| direction so far. YMMV of course. Be happy with yourself first
| and foremost and everything else will follow.
| katmannthree wrote:
| In your experience does the medication get more effective if
| you can find ways to work with it? I've been trying to make
| it work for a while now and it seems like it either does
| nothing or makes me lock on to some random tangential
| (usually useless) task I'm near when it kicks in. Really not
| getting a quieting like with caffeine, which has been
| disappointing.
| andi999 wrote:
| This sounds like the meds dont work (for you). Try
| different ones, if they do not help much then depending on
| how clearcut the diagnosis was, consider that it might have
| been misdiagnosed.
| xyzzy_plugh wrote:
| Have a plan before the start of each day, drink lots of
| water, exercise, eat, get plenty of rest. Maybe take a day
| or two off meds over the weekend, if it's burning you out.
| It's tough to get into a groove and don't last long enough
| but if your force yourself to do these things you can find
| a rhythm for a time and that's the best I've found.
| gregoryl wrote:
| Its a tool. You need to be self aware enough to take the
| meds, and then consciously engage with tasks that you want
| to get done - this wont be a skill you have developed, as
| its likely never been possible/effective previously. You
| can, when medicated, actually consider what you need to get
| done, and then decide to act on those tasks.
|
| You can also set timers/alarms to timebox tasks, and reign
| in hyper focus - it should be relatively easy to change
| tasks with the alarm interruption (vs. unmediated, where I
| find it practically impossible to move to any new task).
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| I've gone multiple years on medication, followed by years
| off it and then back on again. In aggregate I'd say it's a
| wash, but the benefits of each phase are different.
|
| In terms of raw productivity, it can definitely make things
| worse (like the comment I replied to). Or at least, it can
| replace one problem with another - suddenly your creativity
| is gone and your hyperfocus is completely misdirected.
|
| Personally I've sought out the (re-)diagnosis at times when
| I felt creativity was less of a priority than execution. If
| you know exactly what you need to do and can commit to it,
| the pills can help keep you on track. But they are not the
| original source of the commitment.
|
| I'm honestly not sure whether it's worth it, but the
| dopamine it releases sure does its best to convince me that
| it is.
| tikhonj wrote:
| When I first started working with my psychiatrist, she had
| me try several different stimulants and I found that the
| effect was surprisingly different for different
| formulations. My experience with a generic for Ritalin was
| a lot like what you described, but my experience with
| dextroamphetamine was totally different: it _does_ quiet my
| mind down and I _don 't_ get pulled into hyperfocus nearly
| as much. The subjective feeling was different too; I'm not
| sure how to describe it, but the dextroamphetamine just
| felt _softer_.
|
| I've found that the effects change _massively_ with sleep
| quality. When I 'm short on sleep for a few nights, it
| almost feels like the medication stops working. It still
| has an effect--I am noticeably more clumsy and forgetful
| without it--but it _feels_ different and the higher-order
| effect on focus or executive function is less pronounced.
|
| Another thing I've heard is that protein in the morning
| helps. I've tried drinking a protein shake for breakfast
| and it _seems_ to make the day better in general, but with
| a much smaller effect than sleep quality. For all I know,
| it might just have been the case that I only remembered to
| have breakfast on days when I had slept well...
| plutonorm wrote:
| Why would I ever want to contribute to this roiling cesspit
| of a society? Why would I ever be happy working to increase
| the share value of some faceless company? What value does the
| human species have when life is mostly pain? Why would I care
| to try in a world full of selfish ignorant entitled morons?
| While I work to be an honest decent human being others around
| me lie and cheat and have so little self awareness that it's
| like competing with a swarm of locusts. I cannot fathom how
| decent, intelligent people ever have motivation in this
| place. Let alone for something as utterly unproductive as
| programming for a corporate.
|
| And these ludicrous notions of needing to provide because you
| are male and that's your job. Get lost. So the world wants me
| to perform in a certain way because I was born into it and
| will judge me harshly if I don't. Take a hike world. But my
| mind exists in a cage of hardwired pleasure responses and no
| matter which way you twist and turn you cannot escape the
| pain of not confirming to them. Get lost world you are too
| cruel and too stupid to be worth my effort and as a side
| note, I will not be dictated to by some mindless watchmaker.
| Nihilartikel wrote:
| I might be off in my comprehension, but I sense a tone of
| disappointment or cynicism.
|
| In broad terms, taking humanity's current state as a
| starting point, what would the nearest (aesthetically?
| existentially?) acceptable point in the human-cultural
| phase space look like for you?
|
| No intent to antagonize, but I am curious since I have
| passed through similar worldviews here and there.
| kybernetyk wrote:
| Edgy
| WHA8m wrote:
| ADHD is not a motivation thing. Generally speaking. You might
| struggle with motivation and that's okay, but framing it as a
| ADHD trait might harm others. Be cautious about that.
|
| I was burned out and got into depression because I was going
| hard on myself for years. Blaming my motivation and asking
| myself if I even "genuinely want to do the task required to
| accomplish your[my] goals". Getting my diagnosis was a huge
| relief. Looking back, I have been motivated beyond
| everything. I put in at least double the time and effort of
| everyone else and got not a half out of it than others.
| Motivation was not the problem and it took me years to
| realize that. Finally: Actually, I am good enough.
| schappim wrote:
| >> ADHD is not a motivation thing
|
| It would depend on the individual.
|
| A lack of focus from ADHD can translate to a lack of
| motivation due to a lack of progress.
| TechBro8615 wrote:
| I completely agree, I think that's the point I'm making -
| motivation is separate from execution. No pill is going to
| make you want to do something or to accomplish some goal.
| You need to decide that for yourself, and only then can
| execution even make a difference in the first place.
|
| In fact I'd say the clearest indicator of ADHD is a surplus
| of motivation coupled with a dearth of execution. You know
| you want it, but you can't do it, despite being acutely
| aware of your day-to-day actions fucking it up. This is
| what medication helps with in my experience.
| romwell wrote:
| I feel like you are being downvoted by people without
| ADHD who aren't getting what you are saying.
|
| For anyone wanting to learn more - welcome to my world:
| https://romankogan.net/adhd/
| chousuke wrote:
| That advice does not resonate with me; I can definitely see
| the point, but the _how_ of getting myself to do "something
| else" (whatever that could be) consistently escapes me.
|
| Thinking about how I might regret things I haven't done just
| gives me worse anxiety, not motivation to start doing stuff.
|
| I'm also not sure how you're supposed to "be happy" if you
| already aren't. Controlling emotional states is not something
| you can actually directly _do_ rather than trying to affect
| them indirectly through behaviour and exercises.
| WHA8m wrote:
| > this makes me think that it's not something that can be
| solved by a pill.
|
| 2 years after my diagnosis (and medication since then), I'm
| still stuck. I've never had anyone professional to show me how
| to deal with this other than "here're the pills". I'm currently
| looking for a therapist.
| dathinab wrote:
| > be solved by a pill
|
| Most likely, especially that if it's exactly like described in
| the article it's more like a anxiety and/or long-term-miss-
| conditioning problem then one caused by a short attention span.
| jack_pp wrote:
| I've only tried xanax once but if anyone thinks that will
| solve this.. it probably won't, because once on xanax you
| lose the anxiety but also you won't care about the thing
| that's causing anxiety, in my case I didn't care about
| anything, said "stupid" (things I wouldn't normally say so
| casually that hurt them) shit to people I knew because I
| didn't care about the consequences. This likely stems from me
| usually just doing stuff that feels or doesn't feel right
| instead of actually thinking about things rationally so if
| you think you're a rational person this might not apply to
| you. All I'm saying is be careful.
| analyte123 wrote:
| I had a very similar experience with Selank, minus the
| saying dumb things. Intended to "chill out" a bit about
| some tasks to get them done, suddenly did not give a single
| whit about the tasks or anything else surrounding them. Not
| a productivity tool!
| dathinab wrote:
| I wanted to include that point:
|
| > xanax you lose the anxiety but also you won't care about
| the thing that's causing anxiety
|
| but I didn't as I was missing the expertise/experience with
| that.
|
| Just from my understanding anxiety is (often?,
| sometimes?(1)) a unhealthy over reaction of the same
| "thing"/"system" which makes you care about thing. I heard
| about it before that for some people with anxiety disorder
| and depression, the time they where least anxious was the
| time they where most depressed, because they simply didn't
| care about anything anymore.
|
| (1): Anxiety and especially depression are not a very clear
| cut defined (i.e. not like a broken bone) and can have
| noticeable different effects on different people, I do not
| have the expertise to guess in which range this effects can
| lie for it to still count as depression and/or anxiety.
| romwell wrote:
| That's me too; and I've also been diagnosed with ADHD last
| year.
|
| Medication[2] does help me quite a bit, but it's not a silver
| bullet.
|
| Have you tried Body Doubling[1]? It works wonders for me. The
| idea is working alongside others, when everyone is doing their
| own thing. There are online Zoom and Discord groups that
| facilitate it (look up Discord Study sessions; and also more at
| [1]).
|
| [1] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Body%20Double
|
| [2] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Medication
| Mezzie wrote:
| Have you considered anxiety as a cause? It can cause similar
| issues but giving it ADHD meds is a BAD TIME.
| MiddleMan5 wrote:
| I feel like the medications can make my "doom loops" even
| harder to avoid. The stimulants make it easier to hyper focus
| on one task, and feel even less guilt for ignoring the rest of
| the world. Executive Dysfunction is killing me
| throwawayboise wrote:
| This describes me to a "T" lately. Though I don't see doctors,
| so I don't take pills.
| nelsonic wrote:
| What system do you use for task tracking/prioritisation?
| Tepix wrote:
| Pair programming can be a solution. Your employer may fear you
| are slower than on your own but in reality it will vastly
| increase your productivity and make you feel better at the same
| time. Also the result will often be better than what you would
| have eventually achieved by yourself.
| argc wrote:
| I have found this works insanely well for me.
| pydry wrote:
| Me also, which is why it threw me immensely when I joined a
| team where they're somewhat dismissive of pairing.
|
| I realized that I'd been using it as a sort of crutch for a
| while.
|
| It not only motivated me it drew me out of my shell. It made
| me more willing to reach out to people i needed coz i was
| already in a "social mindset". It also made it easier to
| assess and take risks as a pair.
|
| Whereas alone I become somewhat risk averse and asocial.
| jp42 wrote:
| This worked incredibly well in my experience for debug
| sessions.
| ojl wrote:
| Yes definitely. I had quite a long a period of
| procrastination a while ago, then suddenly a colleague called
| and asked me to help debug some issue he had problems with.
| That day the time went very quickly and we solved the problem
| together. I felt a lot better afterwards, not only because
| the problem was solved but also felt so productive. Sometimes
| I need a trigger like that to get out of procrastination
| mode.
| [deleted]
| W4ldi wrote:
| Try cold showers. It makes it easier to overcome uncomfortable
| things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUvZNpFLtGs
| IAmYourDensity wrote:
| I've read lots of books (Eat That Frog, Getting Things Done, The
| Pomodoro Technique, The Now Habit) and tons of blog posts on
| procrastination and rarely do I find them very actionable (heh).
| Here's three techniques that work for me:
|
| 1. Baby Steps
|
| 2. Warp Speed
|
| 3. Multitask
|
| __
|
| Baby Steps
|
| Do the simplest possible step to start the task, and repeat. For
| example, just open your word processor or IDE. Just write _one_
| sentence or prototype _one_ function. Make a list of five topics
| for an essay or five requirements for a new block of code. If you
| get going, great. If not, look for the next baby step to move
| forward.
|
| Warp Speed
|
| Sometimes Baby Steps is not enough motivation if I really find a
| task distasteful or my perfectionism has set in, so I challenge
| myself to complete the task in some ridiculously small amount of
| time. For example, can I complete this 10 page essay in ... 15
| minutes? Of course, spending days thinking of ideas that will win
| a Pulitzer is now out of the question. I have 30 seconds to
| outline the paper. 1.5 minutes to write each page. It's a mad
| dash of stream-of-consciousness to try to finish. At the end of
| 15 minutes, I'm usually left with either: a) a pretty terrible
| paper but a mental outline of ideas that I can make good by
| multiple re-writes, b) an actually submittable paper because I
| forgot about the 15min deadline an hour ago and I've been in flow
| the entire time. The key to Warp Speed is that I'm allowed throw
| away the first, second, or third drafts and start again with the
| ideas that were gained. Another technique that works with Warp
| Speed is to imagine yourself hitting SEND on the email to your
| professor, with essay attached, or hitting submit on the PR to
| your team with the new code you've written. Imagining the
| reaction of others helps me focus on what is absolutely essential
| to the project. What is the minimum level of quality that I need
| to avoid embarrassing myself? Once I have _that_ , I can continue
| to iterate and improve if the project is worth it, or submit and
| move on if it's not worth my time.
|
| Multitask
|
| I know. I know. Multitasking is bad. But sometimes I get blocked
| on a Very Important Project because what I really want to be
| working on are some pie-in-the-sky almost-certainly-waste-of-time
| projects like designing a new programming language from scratch,
| or creating a new video game, or researching Machine Learning.
| But it would be totally irresponsible to work on _those_ projects
| before the Very Important Project, and I _really_ don 't want to
| work on that, so I'll just spin here in procrastination land
| playing video games and watching Youtube for 10 hours. Instead, I
| multitask. I open a window and start prototyping the new
| programming language, I open another window and start
| brainstorming game ideas, and I open a third window and start
| working on Very Important Project. After I've made some progress
| or hit a lull on the fun projects I switch to the VIP and work on
| that. And now that I'm started on the VIP, and it is _very
| important_ , I'll just finish it off quickly so I can focus on
| the fun projects.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| Great ideas. I've used similar techniques too!
| tiku wrote:
| I started to play Doom as procrastination as i've read the title.
| jaw wrote:
| Reminds me of the tale in this podcast [1] where the guy's desire
| to avoid a difficult conversation spiraled into totally ghosting
| his employer for two weeks.
|
| It's a really tough tendency to fight. One thing I think is
| helpful is to acknowledge failure as early as possible. If
| meeting the deadline would require me to work faster than normal
| or make some heroic last-minute effort, I've already failed, even
| if that deadline is still a long way out. Admitting that to
| myself and others now, so that expectations about the future can
| be adjusted, is a much smaller blow than admitting it weeks or
| months down the line. And it means I only have to feel a little
| flaky and underperformant, rather than super flaky and
| underperformant and also dishonest.
|
| [1] https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/depression-
| anxiety-i...
| mlatu wrote:
| in my experience, if you tell your boss you're not going to
| make a deadline, their reaction is not "dont worry" but "yes
| you will"
|
| of course ymmv. had only 5/6 such bosses. the only one that
| wasnt like that, was not in software but a little shop selling
| custom built computers and i was a teenager back then, so that
| might have made it a little easier on me too
| Insanity wrote:
| YMMV indeed, I have not encountered that yet, and have
| definitely missed initial deadlines.
|
| But some things help - when giving estimates or timelines, I
| go through my usual charade of "they are guestimates, usually
| you should double or triple them, the further out they go the
| less likely they are accurate etc".
|
| Also, I promise I will monitor progress, keep them up to
| date, and let them know as soon as possible when plans
| deviate. I also discuss backup plans early (cutting features
| or pushing back, starting with pilots and tests, etc..)
|
| It has worked pretty well for me so far. Not to say it's
| _just_ about how you handle the situation, you can have a
| shitty manager, that part is out of your control
| unfortunately.. :)
| rlt wrote:
| I suffer from anxiety and procrastinate a lot. I wonder if that's
| a common link.
| dathinab wrote:
| > I can hardly bear to think about it
|
| > to avoid cognitive dissonance
|
| > promptly shunt thought of the painful topic back to my
| deepest mental recesses.
|
| > ...
|
| This sounds a lot like an anxiety disorder causing more then
| natural procrastination.
|
| I.e. it doesn't sound like "I'm not motivated" but like "I'm
| too anxious to do it even if I'm motivated".
| wruza wrote:
| You can improve your PDL. Procrastination starts with a
| permissive thought, like "okay later" or "it isn't that bad yet"
| or "wait, a new episode, that's important". After thinking this,
| or in advance, make a list of 5-10 things you _usually_ , in
| practice, do/think/feel to do your routine. E.g. I want to clean
| up my room, what do I usually do:
|
| 1. Get up and look around
|
| 2. Decide what goes where
|
| 3. Foreach: take it, go, put it there
|
| 4. Optimize movement by buffering items that go to the same place
|
| 5. Feel bad when you have to go the same route twice, because you
| forgot something at the first trip
|
| Now mark important points and points you don't want to do. The
| former hides your vulnerability, the latter shows it. E.g. you
| have a chronic lower back pain and a low muscle tone from sitting
| all day, which makes you want 4 and stops from 3, because that
| involves bending over and feeling pain. Now guess what? You've
| found a problem: fix your back pain and sign up for a gym.
|
| Now you don't want to go to gym, rinse, repeat.
|
| Eventually you'll find out some deadlock like "I can't afford a
| gym and a doctor because my room demotivates me to get a job",
| but at least now you are aware of the issue. Or you may conclude
| that you don't really like your physician and maybe it's time to
| go check another one.
| _0ffh wrote:
| The best advice I think I've heard so far against procrastination
| is: First, find a small sub-task of the thing you want to do, and
| lay it out clearly. Then commit a small amount of time to
| starting on that sub-task. Not on finishing it, just on starting
| it. Usually once you started the thing, you will have no trouble
| seeing it through in time. Rinse, repeat.
| gexla wrote:
| I'm convinced that procrastination is a rats nest of things which
| is constantly changing shape and that nobody can give you advice
| for your unique situation. Getting past procrastination is like
| hitting a plateau in a gym and everyone just gives general advice
| on how to get bigger. Maybe the answer is that you have to change
| things up to shock your body past the plateau.
|
| Maybe getting past procrastination is shocking your brain with a
| frame which puts you in a situation where you're not settling
| towards some sort of rot. Seems like we get into this rut in most
| things in life.
| wavesquid wrote:
| In my experience the only way to get these things done is to find
| a _bigger_ thing to procrastinate about.
|
| This hopefully gets you a bit of mileage until there's one thing
| you _really_ don 't want to do; which you can either hand off to
| someone else to do (possibly at great dollar or favour cost), or
| fail at.
| evancoop wrote:
| It's not simply a matter of willpower to avoid procrastination.
| The "doom loops" emerge in the absence of a structure that
| returns awareness to a task (but does not require anxiety about
| the task BEFORE that return). We've all made to-do lists...then
| avoided looking at the list for some unhealthy period of time.
| That's the cognitive dissonance hell (don't look! don't
| acknowledge the problem!).
|
| The answer presumably lies in habits, external structure, and
| patterns that allow items to be acted upon, quickly captured with
| minimal thought (e.g. "Getting Things Done" or some such system),
| and then, crucially, returning to that external structure early
| and often!
| eitland wrote:
| I have plenty to do but the last few years I've done a smart
| thing to avoid this for smaller tasks:
|
| If someone comes with a small request that I want to help them
| with I do two things:
|
| 1. make sure following up on it is their responsibility. I'll do
| it, not be PM for it.
|
| 2. for really small things, bring it to my house at a time we
| agree on and wait until it is done. Nothing gets left here for me
| to look at "whenever I have time" because I never have. If it is
| important they come to my house _and wait until it is done_.
| MandieD wrote:
| Just wanted you to know that you've made my life a bit better
| today.
|
| "I'll do it, not be the PM for it" -> a great, more positive
| rephrasing of what I often tell people for this sort of thing:
| "please bother me until I get back with you about it."
|
| And the second is a brilliant filter for how much someone
| _truly_ needs /wants something "small".
| eitland wrote:
| Now you made my lunch better.
|
| Thanks!
| [deleted]
| periheli0n wrote:
| So many people suffer from this. I guess most of us had at least
| stretches in their career where procrastination dominated the
| work day. For some, this is just the standard mode of operation.
|
| It is important to understand that this is a sign of exhaustion.
| Work is hard and if we don't have the energy to start then it
| doesn't get done. Personally I found the following to help:
|
| 1) Get enough sleep. Every day. Nothing drains your energy more
| than consistently not getting enough sleep.
|
| 2) Cultivate interaction with other people outside work, in
| person. This is particularly important now. Talking with others
| and listening to their little problems can help put your
| perceived misery in context. So does having a life outside work.
|
| 3) Say "No" more often. Focus on the tasks that need to be done
| to meet your life goals. Decline the tasks that look interesting
| or even fascinating when they don't help you move forward.
| torh wrote:
| Not sure if it makes sense, but after the christmas holidays I
| made a bad habbit of sleeping to much, which also made me
| tired.
|
| So, get enough sleep, but not too much. Don't start another
| sleep cycle.
| pure_simplicity wrote:
| Maybe a wakeup light would be helpful. really helps you feel
| awake if you dont feel very awake when you get up, so you are
| not tempted to sleep some more in the morning.
| RichardHeart wrote:
| Doom loop brought me here.
| kubb wrote:
| I solved this by lowering the expectations of how much I'm going
| to do - I usually just say to myself, let's do 1-2 things today,
| where these things are well defined, small pieces of work.
| Sometimes I can finish and can take 1 more thing of the list,
| sometimes I do one thing, sometimes I need to break the task up
| because it's too large. But I make a bit of progress every day
| even it it's just a centimeter or two. It adds up and I'm less
| stressed.
| mgdv wrote:
| I have the same but it feels more like a type of paralysis rather
| than a loop. I'm finding the more I'm mentally trying to multi
| task, the worse this gets
|
| I can only do one task deeply at a time but while doing that, I
| will think and worry about other tasks that need to be done. This
| stops me from what I am working on, leaving it half way and
| starting something else. When I reach a point when two or more
| tasks compete for my attention (or someone drops something on my
| plate) I feel locked up.
|
| The best thing I've found is to capture tasks as soon as I get
| them and try to ignore things until my current task is done.
| Otherwise, i drift of into mindless scrolling
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| I have similar issues, I've found that cannabis edibles help me
| a lot with getting into a flow and grinding hard on some single
| task while minimizing noise
| romwell wrote:
| FYI, you are describing ADHD symptoms:
|
| >I have the same but it feels more like a type of paralysis
| rather than a loop
|
| See: "ADHD Paralysis"[1]
|
| >I can only do one task deeply at a time but while doing that,
| I will think and worry about other tasks that need to be done.
| This stops me from what I am working on, leaving it half way
| and starting something else. When I reach a point when two or
| more tasks compete for my attention (or someone drops something
| on my plate) I feel locked up.
|
| See: "Executive Dysfunction" [2]
|
| >The best thing I've found is to capture tasks as soon as I get
| them and try to ignore things until my current task is done.
| Otherwise, I drift of into mindless scrolling
|
| See: ADHD switches[3]
|
| I've been beating myself up for 30 years over this stuff, until
| I learned that I'm very much not alone - and that ADHD doesn't
| mean what the name says (it's named awfully[4]).
|
| [1] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#ADHD%20Paralysis
|
| [2] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Executive%20Dysfunction
|
| [3] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#ADHD%20Switches
|
| [4]
| https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Awfully%20Described%20Human%20D...
| gatestone wrote:
| Freedom considered harmful. In olden days, you had less stupid
| choices in your life. Sure the idle upper class always had this
| problem.
| jrowen wrote:
| When I first heard the term "doom scrolling," I thought it was
| something along these lines. Scrolling some feed or another, past
| the point when you should have moved on, to avoid confronting
| these types of tasks for just a bit longer.
|
| That to me feels like a much deeper and more terrifying doom than
| simply reading bad news.
| _0ffh wrote:
| It seems to me that doom scrolling is the web equivalent of old
| TV's zapping phenomenon, where people just keep cycling through
| the stations in the hope that on some channel something
| interesting will pop up, sooner or later.
| piva00 wrote:
| It feels the same, talking with my therapist she summarised
| it to me with a question: "is that a feeling like wanting to
| eat something that doesn't exist?" and since then I kept that
| in my mind. I doom-scroll/TV-zap usually without even knowing
| what I want, I just want something that will satisfy this
| "food that doesn't exist" appetite.
|
| I hate it.
| can16358p wrote:
| I somehow managed to break to the other side of things: when I'm
| tasked with something, I say "okay I'm gonna do it anyway sooner
| or later" and start getting the job out of the way. Instead of
| stressing myself out and procrastinating and postponing, I start
| them as soon as possible. Also did it when I was in college back
| then: when I had to study for a final, I started a relax study
| cycle days before, not in last night.
|
| I know we tend to procrastinate and what I've explained is easier
| said than done. But next time you're tasked and is about to
| procrastinate just remember that you'll be doing it anyway and if
| you did things ahead of time everyone will be happier and less
| stressful, and you'll have all your time to do whatever you want
| when the task is finished, without the stress. Maybe it will help
| someone.
| dcminter wrote:
| I doubt there are many procrastinators around who don't realise
| that if they "just ... did things ahead of time" it would solve
| their procrastination, but you must realise that failing to do
| this is the very definition of procrastination. None of us
| _like_ being procrastinators.
|
| All you're telling us is that you're not a procrastinator.
|
| I once read that procrastination is rooted in fear. I think
| this generally holds true for me. I've often found it helpful
| to identify the source of fear and that this sometimes breaks
| the loop. But just starting sooner? Yes, it's that simple but
| no, it's not that simple.
| can16358p wrote:
| Well, yes and no. I also partly procrastinate still, so it's
| on and off kind of relationship. Just shared how I can make
| it go away when I can do. I sometimes just can't and know
| exactly how hard it feels.
| piva00 wrote:
| > I once read that procrastination is rooted in fear. I think
| this generally holds true for me.
|
| For me as well. It's rooted in fear of failure, fear of the
| unknown. I notice it quite clearly when I switch jobs or
| teams, initially when I'm out of my depth with the new domain
| I'm working in I get almost paralysed with starting
| something, eventually I started it after guilting myself on
| not being productive. Then comes a period of back-and-forth
| procrastination on the task until I get my mental model in
| place and feel somewhat productive.
|
| Slowly I chip away the unknowns by gaining more expertise and
| feeling confident and comfortable with new tasks but up to
| that point I will struggle with: fear of failure, fear of not
| knowing enough, fear of delivering a subpar solution. There
| is some kind of prestige fear in there that I haven't yet
| wrapped my head around, therapy has been helping, in the
| least to be able to actually notice the pattern and start
| some coping mechanisms.
|
| > But just starting sooner? Yes, it's that simple but no,
| it's not that simple.
|
| Exactly my take as well, it follows the same line I share
| with people trying to lose weight: losing weight is actually
| pretty simple, it's just not easy at all depending on your
| habits.
|
| Some simple solutions are just not easy when you consider the
| human.
| dcminter wrote:
| Are you me? :)
|
| One other thing that _sometimes_ works is that I will tell
| myself: Ok, you should start this thing, but you only have
| to do ${trivial-amount} on it. Then you can do ${more-
| enticing-thing}.
|
| I don't know why this works since obviously I'm fully privy
| to the subterfuge... but if I can manage that first trivial
| amount (e.g. when I was writing tech books it would be one
| paragraph) I would often end up finishing the task (e.g.
| drafting a whole chapter) as I discover that the thing I
| fear is illusory.
|
| It's all very frustrating. As often as not the thing I'm
| procrastinating upon is something I actively enjoy once I
| get going!
| piva00 wrote:
| Nothing is new and we aren't all that unique, haha.
|
| The more you described your issue and how you deal with
| it the more I thought the same "are you me?".
|
| Instead of tech writing I try to produce music (still
| learning, just 3 years in) and I ended up using the same
| subterfuge: when I avoid opening my DAW to make music I
| just tell to myself "open it, create a motif with a
| preset sound you like and save the project", something
| that wouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes to be done
| with. After I start with that most of the time I simply
| keep going.
|
| I try to apply the same to work tasks, it's just a little
| harder to get the initial commitment when I feel very
| paralysed, every time I do the "just 5 minutes" thing it
| does work though.
| dcminter wrote:
| Oh, hilarious, I see we're also both naturalised Swedes
| :D
|
| Good luck with the music (and anti-procrastination).
| unnamed76ri wrote:
| I do this, but the person I promised to accomplish something is
| usually myself.
| aloukissas wrote:
| I clicked on this waiting to see (interesting) Doom gameplay
| loops. I was greatly disappointed.
| randomsilence wrote:
| >1. I commit to someone that I'll do something "soon," or by a
| deadline.
|
| The elephant in the room is that you can commit to, or you are
| committed to something that you don't want to do ("hi, IRS!").
|
| Why should the mind be able to do that? We can't do things that
| we don't want to do.
|
| Procrastination is a form of self-preservation that prevents us
| from following any silly thought that randomly pops up in our
| heads. Procrastination is not a bug but a feature.
|
| Step 2 should be: call that 'someone' and chancel your
| commitment.
| cttet wrote:
| I share the same problem for a very long time and the situation
| gets worse as I grow up.
|
| But recently at least I have more understanding of my problem on
| this. The most important thing I want to share with you is that:
| Not most of things online are not useful to people like me,
| because the people are different. A lot of advices can be
| misleading too.(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arj7oStGLkU) this
| one especially. Because for different people, the procrastination
| experience is very different.
|
| If you have the same issue as me, the core problem is not
| actually about planning and decision making. It is about my
| ability to do things. It's a long essay but I will put the
| essence here: To some of the people (about half the population as
| I estimate), there are two way to obtain knowledge, one is
| learning, the other is training. People tends to acquired
| knowledge by learning and lack of training will be highly likely
| to have my kind of procrastination, especially on something we
| are not really trained on.
|
| The common experience of me doing things is plan things, make
| time estimates and do it. This sounds familiar but it is
| extremely different experience among people. As a "learner"
| although I made the time estimates, I don't really know them
| well. But with something that I am more comfortable with, I have
| a special feeling about the time estimates, that will have a
| strong confidence on that I can finish in a certain time frame. I
| tend to have no decision hesitations on tasks like this. This is
| usually the reason that I can finish tasks at the last minute,
| because usually I will assemble the things I trained more often,
| and use less the things I learned.
|
| The solution that now I am trying on, is to train more and learn
| less. Also I have done more things that I already familiar
| with(with I force myself to do because I need to resist myself
| considering it as waste of time), to at least know that I can get
| things done.
|
| Hope this will help you. comment here if you need more
| clarifications or advices.
| Shared404 wrote:
| Oh hey, that's a picture of my life.
|
| Anyone have coping mechanisms they can suggest? This is really
| getting out of hand.
|
| So far the best I've been able to do is intake massive portions
| of caffeine and use the resultant high/numbing of emotion to
| allow myself to push through. Not the healthiest or most
| sustainable option.
| bitexploder wrote:
| There are two broad paths you can explore:
|
| (1) learn why your habits are bad and how to fix them through
| hit and miss self help and therapy until, after a lot of trial
| and error you find something that works for you.
|
| (2) just stop caring at all about the emotions. They aren't
| real. It is made up guilt. Not giving a fuck is a super power.
| Embrace your inner distraction and become a being of pure
| Internet.
|
| I'm sort of kidding, but, sort of not. Maybe check out the new
| book that's popular called Atomic Habits, it's a cool book.
| I've been dealing with ADHD and it's effects for over two
| decades, I've been there and done that. Ultimately, it requires
| a lot of difficult fixing of your life loops. There are really
| specific reasons and habits you probably have that lead to NGTD
| (Not Getting Things Done). You have to decide if you are going
| to address them or not. At some high level concept it is
| choices we are making that fail to steer the ship right. But be
| kind to yourself, the underlying mechanisms making you do this
| are deep and not obvious things... you don't have complete
| control over them. You must guide your thinking you to a place
| that makes your not thinking you get it's shit together.
| ModernMech wrote:
| I find that the biggest hurdle to getting things done is the
| context switch. Just getting started is so hard, but after I
| get started I can keep going until the task is done.
|
| So I trick myself and say "I'm not going to do the whole thing
| tonight, I'm just going to do a single trivial thing." So I do
| it. It takes a second. Then I do another. Then something more
| substantial. And before I know it I'm working in earnest.
|
| For instance, if I have to do a sink full of dishes and clean
| up a whole dinner, I will say "just one dish". But after one
| dish the water is hot, the gloves are on, so why not a second
| dish? Then a third. Before I know it the dishes are done!
| [deleted]
| LorentzGauge wrote:
| I found that understanding the physiology behind the problem
| helped me best. Refer to this excellent podcast episode from
| Dr. Huberman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcs2PFz5q6g
| m4tthumphrey wrote:
| Story of my life.
|
| The worst part is once I actually start the task, its usually
| done in the most enjoyable and timely manner. It's exhausting.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| Unlike other comments, I don't think this is always associated to
| ADHD. Rather, I think this is a natural tendency for the current
| normal hivemind of always being distracted at work.
|
| John Cleese in his book about creativity talks about how
| procrastination is actually our natural ability to be most
| creative. If we are leaving something until the last minute, it
| often means we don't really have a great solution or don't have
| enough time to think about it. Even if we do have a solution in
| mind, leaving it till the very last minute gives us enough time
| for other ideas to come up.
|
| This seems to be a recurring problem in knowledge work where a
| large effort that has "deadlines" tends to keep being missed. The
| cause? Not having enough slack or diffused time to just think.
| Often it's juggling the task ontop of a thousand others and being
| constantly distracted.
| Mezzie wrote:
| > John Cleese in his book about creativity talks about how
| procrastination is actually our natural ability to be most
| creative. If we are leaving something until the last minute, it
| often means we don't really have a great solution or don't have
| enough time to think about it. Even if we do have a solution in
| mind, leaving it till the very last minute gives us enough time
| for other ideas to come up.
|
| YES. This is why I don't code as a job; to me, coding is a
| creative exercise and I just hate doing creative things for a
| living. (I've supported myself/made money with both development
| work and fiction writing.) I can't force myself to be creative
| on a deadline, and if I rush something through without giving
| my brain enough time to think through it, it bothers me because
| there might be a better way and I get annoyed if I'm forced to
| give out work that isn't my best.
|
| > Often it's juggling the task ontop of a thousand others and
| being constantly distracted.
|
| Yes. How the hell am I supposed to problem solve if I'm never
| allowed any time to think or allowed to make mistakes, explore,
| etc?
| _notathrowaway wrote:
| >This is why I don't code as a job
|
| What do you do for a living instead?
| Mezzie wrote:
| I work in political communications/education as the only
| techy person on a non-tech team. I have a background in
| front-end/UX + librarianship and instructional design. So
| while I do code when I make instructional materials + use
| my knowledge when I do things like our metrics/data
| analysis, it's not the majority of my job and none of my
| teammates can code at all (all but one of them break out in
| hives if they have to look at HTML).
|
| Minuses: Nobody appreciates when you pull off something
| difficult/do something impressive.
|
| Pluses: Coding is black magic to them so if I need more
| time I can say 'this will take me longer' and they're like
| 'alright'. That wouldn't fly in an actual developer job.
|
| I also do research, outreach, and do things like give
| educational talks on civics + administrative law concepts.
| So I prefer to make a living with my research skills and
| public speaking/presentation abilities as opposed to my
| creative/coding ones.
|
| I like to use my creative/coding skills as an extra: I'm a
| LOT better at my job than I would be without my tech
| background.
| JetAlone wrote:
| I have to commit to something within the context of an
| interpersonal relationship of intense, nigh existential
| importance to me, fight to get it done, and to admit with as much
| dispassion as possible when I can't do it for some reason or
| another. That's what seems to work.
|
| We tend to be attached but uncommitted, when we need to committed
| but detached. Otherwise the emotional angst of failure eats away
| at efforts we _know_ to be weak.
| qwertox wrote:
| I have this theory that depression is a result of deadlocked
| procrastinations.
| FriedrichN wrote:
| It may trigger a depression or push you deeper in depression
| but it certainly isn't the sole cause of depression.
|
| edit: and depressed people are also great procrastinators, if
| getting out of bed seems a chore, then you're not going to be
| productive.
| treelovinhippie wrote:
| zquestz wrote:
| This is a very natural phenomenon. I can definitely relate.
| naruhodo wrote:
| I have noticed I tend to procrastinate on a task until the
| anxiety caused by potentially running late or failing exceeds the
| anxiety of starting the task.
| tobr wrote:
| Something I've noticed is that the worst thing I can do,
| strangely enough, is to write the task down on my todo list.
| While it might make me feel good in the moment to take a minute
| to write it down (at least I've made some kind of progress,
| right?), it now poisons the entire todo list; I can't bear to
| look at the list because I know it includes a task that I don't
| want to think about.
| noduerme wrote:
| What happened to me in 2020 was even weirder. I'd worked from
| home for 15 years and always managed my time well before the
| pandemic. I always _wanted_ to get my work done as quickly as
| possible, because I had built up a work /reward system where I
| would go out at the end of the day, meet up with friends,
| socialize, or just sit outside a cafe and read a book. I never
| had to worry about deadlines because I was always way ahead of
| schedule.
|
| In 2020, the deadlines vanished - my contracts all didn't want
| anything in a hurry, because they were in no hurry to pay. And so
| did my entire structure of social life. So suddenly I had _way
| too much time_.
|
| I always thought if I had that much time, I'd pick up painting
| again, or record some new music, or just read all the books I'd
| been waiting to get to. But 2020 showed me a new problem:
|
| _If you pick up that book_ , said my mind, _you 'll just get
| trapped in it all night._
|
| _If you start painting you 'll blow the whole day._
|
| So I'd panic-read news for an hour, work an hour, panic read some
| more, get drunk, worry, walk circles, forget I was doing laundry,
| mop the floor, forget I was mopping the floor, and literally
| never sit down and just _lose myself_ to anything.
|
| This actually went on for almost 2 full years, and it's been the
| least creative time of my life; I'm only just starting to get
| over it. I bought myself a new laptop, a drawing tablet, art
| supplies, a new guitar, and got my piano tuned. And I still jump
| from one to another thing like a crazed monkey. When I fall into
| one thing, it goes all night and I feel like a wreck the next
| morning, with no useful result. A couple songs, a couple
| paintings, and they bring me memories of this oppressive, crazed,
| all-night insanity and bottles of wine I shouldn't have drunk.
| Then I go sober for a few days and bury myself into work, burn
| myself to the ground. Try to make $2k a day, burn burn burn. Look
| up and it's dark; I haven't gone out.
|
| I went out, a bunch, between Delta and Omicron. I'm triple vaxed
| but I'm at the point where I'd kick myself forever if I got long
| covid because I lapsed and went out to shoot pool or hang out
| with friends.
|
| I've read so many articles lately about this ...
| _procrastination_... I don 't think it's the right word. What we
| are is afraid of the future, and every day has to be divided up
| into smaller and smaller pieces just to make sure you're sort of
| trying to take care of your mind. So you listen to your podcasts
| or you do something that you know won't take up _all day_ because
| _all day is too much commitment_.
|
| Sobering up adds 4 hours, I know that. But then I just play video
| games and try to forget I want a drink. It might actually be
| _better_ in prison, since your options for what to do are so
| limited. I 'd have to finish the book, or keep writing, or finish
| the code I was writing on the wall.
|
| I was always sure I was better than almost any freelancer I ever
| met at managing my time, balancing work and life. But it turns
| out my balance did require having a life; now I do my work in
| this endless slog, with jack shit to look forward to. What good
| is money if you can't spend it. But I'm not okay with rejoining
| the human viral zoo right now and I'm not sure if or when I will
| be.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| I am reminded of the concept of "deep procrastination" by Cal
| Newport. He's written about it in a handful of articles from a
| decade ago, rather disappointing that the concept hasn't caught
| on and isn't talked around more. It sounds a lot like burnout-
| either a cause or a symptom of it.
|
| > Deep procrastination is a distressing affliction. Students who
| suffer from it lose the ability to start school work. Deadlines
| pass and they hand nothing in. Professors provide special
| extensions, but the students still can't bring themselves to do
| the work. And so on.
|
| > One way to understand deep procrastination, therefore, is as a
| rejection of an ambiguous, abstract answer to the key question of
| _why_ you're going through the mental strain required by the
| college experience.
|
| https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2011/07/15/how-to-cure-deep-...
|
| His solutions involve mindset refocusing (diving into the why's
| of the goal that is being procrastinated on), which I think I've
| seen in another anti-procrastination guide posted somewhere on HN
| before recently, and seem to be a bit cursory.
|
| The other two blog entries about it:
|
| https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2009/02/16/the-danger-of-dee...
|
| https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2010/04/29/the-upside-of-dee...
| spawarotti wrote:
| The funny part is when the person you committed to is yourself.
| dspillett wrote:
| This "works" if the someone you promise to that you'll do
| something, is yourself.
|
| I'm a bugger for it.
|
| Doing it right now, in fact.
| coldtea wrote:
| Here's the same concept, refrased as "Wall of Awful", in a neat
| video for ADHD people:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo08uS904Rg
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| I've noticed myself doing things like this, and I think the root
| cause more than anything is an inability to say no.
|
| If you're getting other things done but not some particular task
| you've agreed to, then that's probably a good indication that the
| various subconscious processes in your mind have come together
| and deemed it unviable. These processes evolved for a reason and
| shouldn't necessarily be ignored (at least, not usually!).
|
| Rather than tyrannising yourself into completing every single
| task asked of you, I think a much healthier way to approach this
| is to simply stop and ask yourself whether or not it actually
| makes sense for you to do something before you agree to do it.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| This is a good obeservation. The stuff I am slacking on now is
| stuff that I should have politely declined last year, but
| didn't.
| [deleted]
| intruder wrote:
| I relate 100%. On work commitments I can usually get it done, or
| when the stakes are high enough that failing would burn me hard
| in some way or another.
|
| Awful, maybe one way to deal with this is to just admit that's
| how it is with commitments and just don't do them. I often fear
| that leads to a life of dullness and regret tho. The alternative
| is a struggle until the end of our days.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| I don't think it's bad to admit that you are "not a burning
| furnace of ambition" as Norm Macdonald would say, if you really
| aren't. Most people just go to work and consume entertainment
| in their spare time. As long as you're not burdening anyone
| else, who cares?
| intruder wrote:
| Yea, it's just hard to come to terms with that. Ambition and
| success are drilled into us on a daily basis. It's hard to
| come to terms with maybe not fitting in and how that is okay.
| lupin_sansei wrote:
| I can highly recommend Task Ratchet https://taskratchet.com/ by
| the makers of Beeminder.
|
| You add a task and a due date and how much they will fine if you
| if you don't do it in time.
|
| Loss aversion kicks in and I actually do the task to avoid being
| fined.
| nso95 wrote:
| The book The Now Habit has helped me
| [deleted]
| copperx wrote:
| Can you share briefly how it has helped you?
| eitland wrote:
| Not GP and hopefully GP might come back too and answer but I
| think the book is useful to different people in different
| ways - even if it is a very short book.
|
| One idea that stuck with me both for myself and in a team
| setting:
|
| Fear of failure and how it is overcome: at one point the book
| tells the reader to imagine walking across a 2x4 beam or
| something laying on the ground, then walking across the same
| beam between two highrise towers. The first is really simple,
| the second is something most of us would never do if we could
| avoid it even if we knew the beam is perfectly safe. Now the
| author ask the reader to imagine being stuck at the top of
| the high rise with a fire raging below and coming closer.
| Most can probably now imagine themselves crossing the beam in
| some way, if nothing else by sitting on their butts inching
| themselves across. This is a someone who has a pathological
| fear of failure when a deadline is looming. Last the author
| asks the reader to imagine walking the same beam between the
| same two highrises but now there is no fire and there is a
| perfect safety net directly below it. Most people could
| probably do this, many would even enjoy it. This is a
| challenging job with a "safety net" where failing is safe.
|
| I realize Neil Fiore didn't come up with this, this goes
| further back, see for example https://medium.com/s/radical-
| spirits/the-man-who-helped-the-...
|
| ... but the book is were I learned about this example.
| nso95 wrote:
| Procrastination is usually caused by anxiety and the way we
| speak to ourselves, and this book is all about addressing
| that. You can have all sorts of rules and systems, but if you
| don't treat yourself with positivity and respect none of
| those will matter. My biggest takeaways are that you should
| not let work bleed into your leisure time, and you shouldn't
| base your self worth on your work.
| romwell wrote:
| >I do tasks on three timescales: they either get done
| immediately, after a shamefully massive delay, or not at all.
| There's little in-between.
|
| To anyone relating: that's an ADHD symptom.
|
| It falls under the umbrella of Executive Dysfunction[1].
|
| I have been beating myself up for it all my life, and turns out
| there are many things that work differently for people with ADHD
| - and many things that help (from medication[2] to social
| techniques, like body doubling[3]).
|
| Here's how ADHD looks for me: https://romankogan.net/adhd/ -- if
| you find yourself scrolling and nodding, maybe get it checked it
| out, OK?
|
| [1] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Executive%20Dysfunction
|
| [2] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Medication
|
| [3] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Body%20Double
| adamc wrote:
| I don't have ADHD, and I have this issue. I have (or have had
| -- seems to be in remission at present) issues with depression,
| which can also result in this.
| alx__ wrote:
| In my experience getting an adult ADHD diagnosis is a long
| process. Especially if you've never looked into it. After
| getting lost in the process last year. Re-attempting this year,
| i'm again stalled as they want my anxiety/depression scores to
| drop before testing for ADHD. So don't give up, when the system
| puts up walls. I assume this is due to the potential addiction
| side-affects for the drugs (stimulants) for non-ADHD folks
| [deleted]
| zhynn wrote:
| I was very defensive when my wife said that I should consider
| being screened for ADHD, I have the exact experience you do (a
| the OP) around this stuff. The defensiveness was something that
| I sorted out, and looking back on things, so many of my "vices"
| were just self-medication for ADHD. They were mostly coping
| strategies (with the exception of some social vices).
|
| My adult diagnosis has been a game changer for me. I know most
| people don't mean that literally, but I mean that literally. It
| changed the game.
| slingnow wrote:
| So to mean it literally, it changed some literal game you
| were playing. What game did it change and how?
| zhynn wrote:
| My game was: - follow my curiosity -
| take advantage of times when my curiosity and focus aligned
| with work - manage the anxiety that came as a
| consequence of focusing on things I shouldn't be.
|
| My new game is: - channel my curiosity to
| solve relevant problems (get distracted sometimes, but not
| near as much as I used to) - since I am more in
| control of my own focus, my anxiety is dramatically
| reduced, so I don't require as aggressive management of it
| as I used to (binge sessions to decompress, chemicals
| (alcohol, nicotine), meditation and breath practice. I
| still do the meditation and breathing, as I like it and
| feel like it is a net positive, but I don't need it to tame
| the demons.
| golemiprague wrote:
| hfourm wrote:
| Good stuff. I have lived with ADHD as long as I remember. Going
| on and off prescriptions.
|
| Adult ADHD has mostly revolved around depression/mood swing
| cycles of hyper focus and motivation (new interesting
| project/work, new job) and procrastination, lack of focus, and
| depression caused by that feeling of know I should be doing X
| but not being able to bring myself to.
|
| I have some coping techniques and it isn't something I think
| about all the time. The worst thing about it is that while
| prescriptions are effective, they are not pleasant and the
| tolerance you build to them is even worse. I try to balance
| them (threshold dosages, only using when I really need it) with
| other techniques.
| pbrb wrote:
| Exactly the same for me. I'm currently in the "I know I
| should be doing X but not being able to bring myself to"
| cycle on a piece of a major project. It's not hard work, I
| know how to do it, but I just cannot do it.
|
| I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child, and have avoided the
| medication my whole life. Recently, I decided to try
| Adderall. It's like magic to be honest, and has helped
| tremendously in multiple ways. I can focus on a single task,
| less pain in getting started on tasks, can actually stay
| focused, can listen without the draining mental effort to
| force myself to, and am less forgetful.
|
| But for some reason, this one project has put me right back
| in the same old 'cannot do this' state even with the
| Adderall.
| randallsquared wrote:
| > _It 's like magic to be honest_
|
| For nearly everyone, if I understand correctly, ADHD or no.
| cik2e wrote:
| There are supplements that eliminate almost all of the
| negative side-effects of stims.
|
| - L-Tyrosine to keep your dopamine levels up.
|
| - ALCAR + ALA to reduce neurotoxicity and tolerance formation
|
| - Magnesium and Zinc for muscle tension, including jaw
| clenching if you're prone to that.
|
| And for Aderall, you can take Vitamin C at any point to
| rapidly flush it out of your system.
|
| These things are a game-changer for quality of life and
| sustainability of stimulant medication. For example, with the
| ALA+ALCAR stack, I don't get any withdrawals when I take
| breaks. No fatigue, malaise, nothing. I would have given up
| on adderall a long time ago without these things.
| ultra_nick wrote:
| Extra points if you beg yourself or a higher power to please
| let you start the task that "isn't even that hard".
| romwell wrote:
| Yup. I call them "small tasks"[1]. They're hell.
|
| [1] https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Small%20Tasks
| InvisibleUp wrote:
| Here is another excellent write-up on the struggle that ADHD
| can be: https://gekk.info/articles/adhd.html
| [deleted]
| 300bps wrote:
| Just want to point out - one can have symptoms of a disorder
| that don't rise to the level of a disorder.
|
| I have what OP describes like crazy, I beat myself up over it
| frequently and think I need to do better. Yet somehow I keep
| getting glowing reviews at work and even just got promoted
| without asking.
|
| So don't automatically think, "omg I do that too! I need
| medication." Start to worry if it has a substantial negative
| impact on your life.
| Mezzie wrote:
| It also can NOT be ADHD but can be executive dysfunction.
| Important because things like anxiety can also cause these
| issues, and generally stimulants aren't a great idea for
| anxious people. (Unless the anxiety IS caused by ADHD...
| humans are weird.)
| smoothpotato4 wrote:
| Doing well at work is not an indication that you don't have
| ADHD. Plenty of people with ADHD are perfectionists and
| overachievers, even those without medication.
|
| "Having a negative impact on your life" can be about more
| than just whether you perform well at work, it can be about
| how you feel about yourself and how you take care of
| yourself. I agree, medication is not always the answer. But
| that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to learn more about
| ADHD for those who have symptoms. Just understanding more
| about ADHD can help people develop coping habits to work with
| their brains instead of against them.
| 300bps wrote:
| _Doing well at work is not an indication that you don't
| have ADHD._
|
| Of course it is. Maybe if you changed "indication" to
| "guarantee" I would agree with you but as it is that
| sentence is objectively wrong.
|
| And of course there are other factors. I've definitely had
| symptoms of ADHD my entire life but once again that doesn't
| mean it rises to the level of a diagnosable disorder.
| avianlyric wrote:
| No that statement just isn't true. ADHD in high IQ
| individuals frequently creates high performing
| individuals with very low self-esteem.
|
| They succeed in complex environments tackling difficult
| problems, but still struggle to perform basic everyday
| chores. High performance at work, but consistently poor
| performance in other aspects of life is an indicator of
| possible ADHD.
|
| https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/psychiatry-and-
| sleep...
| romwell wrote:
| >I have what OP describes like crazy, I beat myself up over
| it frequently and think I need to do better. Yet somehow I
| keep getting glowing reviews at work and even just got
| promoted without asking.
|
| Hey, I have a PhD in mathematics, work experience in
| Microsoft and Google (among others), glowing reviews and all.
|
| And you know what would have been great? Getting treatment in
| high school, so that getting here would have been a much more
| peaceful process, without so much pain, beating myself up,
| and being chronically depressed because of it.
|
| Professional success is not the only metric in life. Beating
| oneself up endlessly can get to you too. Understanding how my
| brain works allows me to live a _happier_ life.
|
| >So don't automatically think, "omg I do that too! I need
| medication." Start to worry if it has a substantial negative
| impact on your life.
|
| Well, of course. And medication doesn't work for everyone
| (does nothing for about 20% of people, IIRC, and many others
| don't enjoy the side effects). There are, however, many other
| things that do help - from lifestyle changes to body
| doubling.
|
| For me, these little things had an immense impact on my well-
| being:
|
| * It's OK to have 4 pairs of scissors to keep them where I
| use them instead of looking for them each time. Minimalism is
| not ADHD-friendly.
|
| * It's also OK to have cabinets full of hobby supplies that I
| come back to once every few years. "If you don't use it for 3
| years, throw it out" is not how ADHD works. Time is a dark
| matter for ADHD folks.
|
| * I can't reliably estimate time, especially the time it
| takes me to do things. I can improve my estimates by asking
| _other_ people to estimate time. If it 's important, I should
| trust judgement of other people when it comes to time, even
| if my brain tells me that surely, it's feasible to do X
| things in Y time.
|
| * I will not remember where my phone is, and it's OK. I can
| keep Google Home Hub, and tell it to find my phone. As long
| as it has power, it will ring.
|
| * For that matter, the _best_ phone for me is the one with
| immense battery life (currently, Moto G Power with its 3-day
| battery, but I 'll gladly take a 7-day brick). Because I
| _will_ forget to charge it every day, and it will be nothing
| more than a silicon slab when I need it the most otherwise.
|
| * It's OK to buy a gadget/tool/thing _just to perform a task_
| , because it adds novelty. Consumerism be damned, I can give
| things away on Craigslist and make someone's day - or I can
| acquire a hobby. I bought a bullet smoker on sale last week
| on a whim, and now have five pounds of smoked fish in my
| fridge (OK, _that_ might have been an overkill). I bought a
| slow cooker, a toaster oven, an air fryer, an instant pot,
| and a cast iron skillet to make cooking more fun - all of
| them get used a lot.
|
| * It's OK to temporarily lose interest in a hobby I'm
| passionate for. It doesn't indicate a lack of passion of
| interest. It's just ADHD.
|
| * To do a boring/tedious task, I need to do a fun thing
| first, and then ride that momentum to victory. "Rewarding"
| myself with a fun activity for completing a
| tedious/productive one simply doesn't work: I neither
| complete the task, nor get to do the "reward" activity. The
| ideal way is to incorporate the reward into doing: cooking,
| but getting to use a new implement. Coding, but only using
| list comprehensions instead of loops. Being on a lookout for
| something _novel_ to island-hop from task to task without
| strain.
|
| * I am not effective in open-floor layouts sitting next to
| colleagues, but very productive in a library/coworking
| environments. People that work on the _same_ thing
| (especially if we bond over it) are a distraction, and added
| guilt when I 'm not productive. People working alongside me
| add accountability without judgement, and enhance my
| productivity. That's called body doubling, and it works even
| if it's over Zoom (as long as people don't talk to each
| other). There are Discord study groups, and Zoom sessions at
| https://adhdactually.com that facilitate that.
|
| * My storage cabinets either have transparent doors, or no
| doors at all (IKEA Kallax cube organizers); when using cube
| organizers, transparent containers are the best. It's optimal
| for my brain, even if it doesn't look best to some.
|
| * I often need to stay up late, later than everyone else in
| the house, and it's OK. I stopped forcing myself to go to bed
| early when I don't feel like sleeping. The AM hours after
| everyone has gone to bed have a valuable peacefulness to
| them, where I can focus on things that I might not get to do
| otherwise.
|
| * If I feel an urge to do the Boring But Necessary Thing, I
| act on it immediately, even if it's disrupting the plans or
| is at an unusual time. Cleaning at 2AM? Cooking at midnight?
| Mailing that package when I was planning to clean? Whatever,
| I need to ride that wave, because who knows when it'll come
| next.
|
| And so on, and so on. ADHD lifehacks are different than
| neurotypical lifehacks. Just being aware that they exist
| helps a ton.
| wombat-man wrote:
| Yeah, I deal with a lot of the listed symptoms. But I've
| never been diagnosed and I seem to be a fairly functional
| person.
| zhynn wrote:
| It took me until I was 45 to finally get screened. I really
| wish I had done it sooner, it is not that rough. But I said
| the exact same thing when I bumped into this notion. I was
| quite resistant to the idea, which is itself a fascinating
| mental knot to untie.
| 300bps wrote:
| What has changed for you since being screened?
| zhynn wrote:
| Primarily: medication Secondarily: being able to have a
| short hand category for looking up strategies to handle
| my own challenges and finding a sympathetic community of
| people with eerily similar challenges.
|
| The medication has been surprising. I have all my life
| thought that I had anxiety. So I did various compensating
| behaviors to manage the anxiety. I now know that I was
| anxious because of my ADHD behaviors, and addressing the
| anxiety made things tolerable, but didn't really deal
| with the underlying problem. I am a curious person. I
| will hyper-focus on rabbit holes, which is a super power
| when you are hooked on a relevant problem. But if I
| should be doing work, but I am hyper focused on something
| interesting but irrelevant (like, for example, the
| history and usage of the Shopsmith woodworking multi-
| tool), it creates anxiety because I should be working.
|
| The drugs are helping me control my focus better, which
| is something I have never been able to do. I just had to
| ride the current before, but now I feel like I have some
| control of the current.
|
| It's not perfect, I am still sorting things out, I have
| only been on this path for a few months.
|
| I think that "ADHD" is poorly named, because I don't
| think of my hyper-focus as "hyperactivity". And I don't
| really think I have "Attention Deficit", so much as
| difficulty controlling where my attention is directed.
| 300bps wrote:
| Thank you for the interesting perspective! You and I
| sound fairly similar in terms of symptoms.
|
| For the anxiety I went with a book that someone
| recommended to me on HN called, "Learned Optimism". I
| went from having moderate to severe anxiety for decades
| to pretty much zero. It's work, but was tremendously
| worth it.
|
| I have spent time on solving procrastination with less
| success. Most notable was reading, "Solving the
| Procrastination Puzzle". For me the most successful
| technique is "Just get started". I think I have two
| issues that cause me to not start on things: 1) before
| it's started, it's a perfect little idea. after starting,
| it leads to imperfect compromises to get it done. 2) I
| fear it will be harder than it actually is. "Just get
| started" pushes through both of these for me.
| depingus wrote:
| Thanks for this. I have a teen with ADHD currently dealing with
| executive dysfunction and you really helped me understand what
| going on in his head.
| omginternets wrote:
| I was recently diagnosed with ADHD. I am 34. Part of what took
| so long to get this diagnosed is that it is poorly named. I do
| not have a deficit of attention; in fact, I have _extreme_
| sustained attention [0].
|
| If the symptoms described by the parent poster are causing you
| to suffer, please consider that it might be ADHD, and that ADHD
| does not necessarily manifest in the way it's name suggests it
| should.
|
| Please also consider that lightweight treatment can drastically
| improve your quality-of-life. Stimulant therapy has provided
| immediate relief for me, like flipping a switch [1]. The best
| part is that I still enjoy the positive aspects of my ability
| to hyperfocus. Only now, my attention feels like a servant
| rather than a master.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus
|
| [1] I have a fairly moderate case of ADHD, so YMMV.
| thoughtpeddler wrote:
| I wouldn't so quickly jump to "that's an ADHD symptom". I know
| many people inarguably _not_ ADHD who exhibit similar task
| timescales.
|
| I don't want to discount the fact that this can be a hallmark
| symptom of ADHD for those that truly have/are ADHD. However,
| some part of this reaction is over-pathologization.
|
| It's increasingly accepted that ADHD is over-diagnosed [1] [2]
| [3], and I feel that this task timescale concept accounts for
| part of that.
|
| [1] Overdiagnosis of Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder
| in Children and Adolescents;
| https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
|
| [2] Overdiagnosis of mental disorders in children and
| adolescents (in developed countries);
| https://capmh.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13034-016-...
|
| [3] Is Adult Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder Being
| Overdiagnosed?;
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC4500182/
| droopyEyelids wrote:
| Do you know of any research testing whether ADHD can increase
| when people are required to focus on one thing (like a
| computer) or stay in one place (like a desk) all day?
|
| I've always wondered if there could be an environmental link
| to the situation people have to operate in, and certain
| mental pathologies.
| romwell wrote:
| >I wouldn't so quickly jump to "that's an ADHD symptom". I
| know many people inarguably not ADHD who exhibit similar task
| timescales.
|
| Well that's exactly the difference between a symptom and a
| diagnosis.
|
| ADHD has overlap with other conditions, and any one
| symptom/trait is insufficient to say "it's ADHD". Executive
| Dysfunction can also be a symptom of ASD, anxiety disorders,
| burnout, etc.
|
| One needs to relate to many symptoms/traits to make any
| conclusions. The links I posted are a PSA to raise awareness.
|
| >It's increasingly accepted that ADHD is over-diagnosed
|
| I have been diagnosed last year, aged 34. ADHD may be over-
| diagnosed in some groups, but it is most certainly under-
| diagnosed in others (particularly, women with inattentive
| type ADHD)[1].
|
| [1] https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-in-women-misunderstood-
| symp...
| thom wrote:
| I know dozens of people in my life that exhibit most or all
| of the symptoms described in one of the parent's links, but I
| wouldn't diagnose them with anything more serious than
| 'parenthood'.
| romwell wrote:
| The symptoms I described manifest in absence of any
| external stress. That's what makes them symptoms.
|
| The first question to ask about those is whether they have
| been present since childhood.
| Mezzie wrote:
| My executive function fluctuates with my anxiety and stress
| levels, and it's also well-recorded that poverty/chronic
| stress do pretty terrible things to executive function. I'd
| guess that 'being on 24/7 to make sure the little humans
| don't die' could produce similar results, particularly
| given the sleep deprivation. Just a constant focus on the
| 'now' and immediate dangers/issues vs. planning and the
| future.
| Mezzie wrote:
| It's definitely a sign of executive dysfunction, but
| executive dysfunction has causes that aren't ADHD. My
| executive function fluctuates with my anxiety, for example,
| and my MS has blown a giant hole in it.
| burkaman wrote:
| Looking at your third link about diagnosis in adults (which I
| think is most relevant to the discussion here), it provides a
| good overview of why overdiagnosis would be bad and how to
| potentially avoid it, but it doesn't actually try to answer
| the question Is Adult Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity
| Disorder Being Overdiagnosed? I think it's fair to use this
| paper as evidence that some psychiatrists are concerned that
| overdiagnosis may be happening, but not as evidence that it
| actually is happening.
| JackMcMack wrote:
| I'm not usually someone to complain about a comment or
| opinion, but this conflicts so much with my experience that I
| feel compelled to respond. I was diagnosed about 1.5 years
| ago, in my 30's.
|
| I would argue that yes, "that's an ADHD symptom". One symptom
| does not make a diagnosis, but if you recognize yourself
| definitely do your research and consult a professional.
| Especially for the many people you know who show similar
| behaviour.
|
| It took me a long time to convince myself I might have ADHD,
| and during and even after the diagnosis I still had my
| doubts. Looking back, it was incredibly obvious if you
| recognize the symptoms. I'm still amazed I got this far in
| life without professional help, no doubt largely due to my
| supportive environment.
|
| I would _strongly_ argue that it is not accepted that ADHD is
| overdiagnosed. I've done a quick read through of the studies
| you linked, imho none of them actually support the claim of
| overdiagnosis.
|
| [1] "Overdiagnosis is defined here as occurring when a person
| is clinically diagnosed with a condition, but the net effect
| of the diagnosis is unfavorable. Misdiagnosis (when a child
| is incorrectly labeled with an ADHD diagnosis instead of an
| alternative condition) and false-positive diagnosis (when a
| subsequent clinical encounter reveals a wrong initial
| diagnosis) are not the focus of this article."
|
| Unfavorable here is:
|
| - medication can have side effects
|
| - it might be used as an excuse to stop trying/caring
|
| - there's a social stigma
|
| [2] This metastudy is about mental disorders in general,
| mostly referencing studies before 2000. The only study
| supporting the overdiagnosed claim is a german 2012 study;
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22201328/. They sent case
| vignettes to 1000 psychologists, psychiatrists, and social
| workers. For the case vignettes which matched several (but
| not all) ADHD criteria (DSM-IV), 16,7% gave a diagnosis, and
| 2x more often for boys vs girls.
|
| This proves that the therapists did not strictly followed the
| criteria, but does that mean that they were wrong? This is no
| simple blood test. They're asking someone to give a diagnosis
| based on a 3rd party report of a patient.
|
| I remember in my case there was a computerized quiz with easy
| answers and long artificial delays, to test if you can stay
| focused on boring tasks and measure your response time. If
| you give me this test on my pc, I will very quickly switch to
| another window or take out my phone. But in an external
| environment as part of an expensive test I specifially asked
| and waited a long time for? Sure, I'll be polite and keep
| staring at the screen. The screen was an old tft by the way,
| with a crappy unshielded vga cable picking up interference,
| causing ghosting issues in the different colour channels. If
| I lifted the cable hanging under the desk with my leg, I
| could almost make it go away.
|
| Anyway, all of this was reduced to a number (my average
| response time), and ultimately to a boolean (can stay
| focussed). It's not an exact science.
|
| Also, maybe the criteria are wrong? Or at least incomplete?
| Prior to DSM-V, ADHD and ASD were mutually exclusive. That
| seems absurd now, but the 5th edition only came out less than
| 9 years ago (may 2013), so after the above study. The DSM is
| "only" a consensus of a group of professionals. Over time our
| understanding of things change, and that consensus might
| change. And over a longer time, some of those professionals
| (and maybe a few new ones) come together and try and update
| the DSM.
|
| [3] This article raises the question, but does not actually
| claim ADHD is overdiagnosed. Sure, some people might seek
| stimulants, and might successfully fake their way to a
| diagnosis. But that's a problem not exclusive to ADHD.
| Diagnosing ADHD is not straightforward, and should be done by
| experienced professionals.
|
| I suspect there is a large pushback in the USA on stimulant
| use as a result of the opioid crisis. But for the people who
| actually need the medication the process of actually getting
| it is already difficult enough, and should be made easier,
| not harder.
|
| I'm open to having my mind changed, but so far I have not
| seen any evidence that ADHD is overdiagnosed, let alone that
| overdiagnosing is increasing.
| bluejellybean wrote:
| Another trick that I haven't seen anyone talk about in this
| thread is visualization. I'll use this whenever I notice the
| loop, but still don't have the courage to actually stop. I'll
| pause for a moment, tell myself that I am NOT going to do the
| thing exactly at this moment, but instead I will just visualize
| the exact steps needed for when I eventually sit down to do it.
|
| This helps for those situations in which I'm procrastinating due
| to a realized or unrealized ambiguity of a given task. If I'm
| slacking because I don't know how to do something, it gives me
| the questions that I need to go find answers to. Googling around
| for answers or pinging a coworker is way easier than actually
| doing the work, and thus I can 'get the ball rolling' so to
| speak.
|
| Even if I still procrastinate a bit afterwards, the tasks seem
| much more manageable as I already 'know' what needs to be done,
| letting ideas stew at this point. Usually after a snack or
| bathroom break, I'll come back and just crank out the work (or at
| least start!) because I'm so sick of thinking about how simple
| that first step actually is, again, because the details are
| already worked out in my head.
|
| In a literal sense, this is 'work/working', but it never feels
| like it, and that's part of the key for me to overcome it. It's
| just thinking, right?
| beaconstudios wrote:
| 100% this. I've commented similar elsewhere in the thread with
| a similar position - essentially, there's something you need to
| do that you're avoiding, some problem you need to resolve, and
| it's emotionally uncomfortable. Many of us have learned to
| avoid discomfort, but often times you need to go through it to
| make progress. It's best if you can minimise that discomfort in
| order to make headway, and simply breaking down what needs
| doing in your head can help make it less stressful.
| narrator wrote:
| The trick I've used to get things done that are extremely hard
| for me to do because of a mental block of some kind is to somehow
| involve another person, even if they're just mostly watching.
| Sounds dumb, but for some reason it works.
| JetAlone wrote:
| Because we are relational creatures. To even accomplish a task
| in a totally isolated state requires it be intrinsically
| motivated to an outrageous level. Things like a matter of basic
| survival qualify. I think anything outside of that sphere that
| we are so motivated to _work_ on beyond a state of half-minded
| play are rare, obsessive fascinations.
|
| EDIT: also after looking at your profile I want to say, I hope
| your authorship goes well. I hope the reply I've written could
| even be of help in that endeavor.
| tempestn wrote:
| I'd love to hear suggestions for an employer or manager who
| expects or knows an employee or report is in or prone to this
| situation. Not experiencing that now, but definitely have in the
| past.
| layer8 wrote:
| For me that happens when there are two or more nontrivial and
| longer-running tasks at the same time that have a certain level
| of uncertainty/difficulty associated with them. I can't really
| focus on one because the other one is also in the back of my mind
| worrying me, so I procrastinate to avoid either.
| nicbou wrote:
| Usually, I solve this by making it the only thing on my list that
| day, and clearing as many hurdles as possible the day before.
| This can mean anything from preliminary googling to cleaning up
| my workspace and taking out the required tools.
|
| This means that on the fateful morning, it's the first thing I do
| after making coffee. No checking emails, no small chores, just a
| shower, coffee and getting to work.
|
| I read somewhere that a lot of procrastination is fear of failure
| or fear of the unknown. Sometimes tackling the latter is the best
| way to start. I circle the problem late in the evening when there
| is no pressure to start working. I just read, take notes and
| draft plans. Making it easy to get started is sometimes the best
| first step to take.
| low_tech_love wrote:
| This is great advice, even if it sounds cliche and obvious. I
| like to say that you have to set yourself up for success. That
| is, make it as easy as possible for your task to actually be
| easier and more straightforward (i.e. get the other stuff out
| of the way the day before, clean up, mute your phone, empty
| your agenda, etc) It's very common for us to do the exact
| opposite, and then we feel bad later because we failed. Of
| course! We made it even harder for ourselves then it already
| is. I think that many people (especially coders) got used
| earlier in life to do things naturally, to have natural
| motivation to work and that was enough. If at some point that's
| not the case anymore, because you're older, has more
| responsibility, is tired, or a combination of all these, you
| lose your "method" and don't know what to do. So: recognize the
| difficulty of what you are going to do, and set yourself up for
| success. And also learn to expect less from yourself and be
| happy when small goals are achieved (you'll learn this the hard
| way anyway; after not doing anything, even a small thing will
| feel like success).
| nicbou wrote:
| The "how" isn't as obvious.
|
| I try to get as far as possible without actually starting
| work. I'll get all the little things out of the way.
|
| - Prepare clothes for the next day - Prepare a mug with a
| teabag, sugar and a spoon - Close tabs, launch the IDE, start
| the Docker containers - Gather the addresses, emails or phone
| numbers I need to call - Write a very short term to-do list
| to get the day started - Clear small unrelated tasks if
| needed (inbox triage, small errands etc)
|
| It's very similar to mise en place when you're cooking. You
| take care of the small tasks first, so that the main task
| goes smoothly.
|
| It's really effective. In fact, it's sometimes hard to snap
| out of it and do other things.
| yboris wrote:
| There's a book called "Eat That Frog". The main advice, as the
| title of the book suggests, whatever the biggest most-important
| task, regardless of how unpleasant (akin to eating a frog),
| just do it first and do nothing else until it's done.
|
| Works for some things -\\_(tsu)_/-
| adventureadmin wrote:
| >I read somewhere that a lot of procrastination is fear of
| failure or fear of the unknown
|
| The Brain Science podcast from Changelog has an episode about
| perfectionism and how it can lead to procrastination, by the
| fear of rejection or failure.
| beaconstudios wrote:
| OK, so I used to have this problem, hardcore. Gave me a lot of
| trouble, I often overcommitted and ran away from tasks - but I've
| actually solved this problem now. It's not a fun solution, I have
| to do it every time (for now - the issue itself may fade with
| time) and it can be stressful, but it works and it isn't
| uncomfortable for very long.
|
| So when I get distressed by a task I've put off, I use
| mindfulness techniques to stop myself from dissociating (going
| into my head, criticising myself for not doing it,
| psychoanalysing myself, other stuff that's not directly related
| to doing the task) and redirect my focus back to figuring out the
| first action I can take to progress the task. Thinking about the
| bigger-picture benefits of completing the task also help (how
| does completing this task advance goals that I care about?) Once
| I've figured it out, I continue to use the mindfulness techniques
| to remain present while I complete said task, only allowing my
| mind to wander in the direction of thinking more about the
| practical completion of the task (resolving other unknowns,
| breaking down big tasks, etc). Once I get this ball rolling the
| anxiety goes away, but it's hard to start because as TFA says, it
| comes with a strong repulsive instinct to avoid, procrastinate,
| do anything but the task that needs doing. You need to overcome
| that through focusing on the first step and doing it. "One foot
| in front of the other" as they say.
|
| I think it comes from being overwhelmed - either from seeing the
| task as a complete object rather than breaking it down, not
| knowing how to advance it, feeling guilty over not having done it
| in time, or a million other reasons. You can't let being
| overwhelmed turn into avoidance - you have to confront and
| resolve the problem that's causing the emotional disturbance.
| asxd wrote:
| I had this issue with my first software job right out of college.
| I was unproductive for weeks, just due to culture shock and
| (shamefully) malaise. The procrastination snowballed. Luckily a
| fellow engineer eventually noticed, sat down with me, and
| recognized exactly what was going on. In the kindest way
| possible, he sat down behind me and basically _made_ me finally
| start my next project. He stayed there with me for the rest of
| the day, answering and asking questions to keep my progress
| going. It had quite an impact on me. Having another person
| involved and actively care about my work went a long way.
| sshine wrote:
| That's an amazing experience report.
|
| I remember teaming up with a former colleague at a point where
| their SRI had just kicked in, and my motivation was down the
| drain. I felt they were doing me a huge favor, and they felt
| the same way back. Pair programming is, so far, the only
| certain cure to my procrastination. I'll certainly work when
| not pair programming, but pair programming will make me give
| 100% for 12+ hours simply because of the commitment to another
| person, and the reward of continuous socialising.
| wffurr wrote:
| What does "SRI" mean in this context?
| data_ders wrote:
| prolly RSI: repetitive stress injury. Though at first I
| thought they meant SSRI
| [deleted]
| ivan_ah wrote:
| I'm guessing _Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor_. I 've seen
| friends on it and it has a weird effect of being extra
| optimistic and helpful toward others. I can see how if
| you're feeling in a low energy state pairing up with
| someone like that can be a good thing. Second hand meds ;)
| ckdarby wrote:
| Eventually that person couldn't be standing behind you making
| sure you were doing your work and at that point how did you
| make sure you were being productive?
| Kye wrote:
| Not the person you replied to, but I've had similar
| experiences. Just having another perspective to compare to
| can help. If I've had a good experience, I can tell when I'm
| not there. That's often enough to close the gap.
| fudged71 wrote:
| FYI this is called "Body Doubling" in the ADHD world, and there
| are services offering this.
| hartator wrote:
| I will read this later.
| cipheredStones wrote:
| I spent about a third of 2021 more or less consumed by this
| phenomenon. In my case it was triggered by job searching: I quit
| my existing position, intending to do a leisurely search over a
| few months... and then avoided nearly everything related to the
| job search for over four months. (While still experiencing a ton
| of stress as a result of constant anxiety and guilt about it.)
| Once I actually started, I landed an amazing new position within
| two months.
|
| The thing that made the difference for me was directly and
| consistently involving my girlfriend. All she did most of the
| time was sit in the same room as me, working on her own stuff,
| but some combination of being unable to completely avoid working
| while she was there, having her there to vent anxiety to, and
| being able to make commitments to her rather than myself made an
| enormous amount of difference.
|
| I'm not thrilled with myself for the procrastination I did in the
| first place, but I'm taking it as a hard-won lesson: doing
| difficult things can be vastly easier if you have someone you
| trust as support and confidant.
| ljm wrote:
| The accountability piece is really important. So many things
| become easier to do, or persist with, if you've got the
| accountability there.
|
| Even better if it's external accountability because it's also
| easy to self-sabotage.
| jrs235 wrote:
| I've been dealing with overcoming some severe procrastination
| issues again. I was doing some "Spring" cleaning over the last
| few weeks and came across several books I had bought and read
| in the past. I picked up, The Now Habit[0], and opened it to
| page 103 (of my version/copy).
|
| Below is a bit of a wall of text with I assume several typos.
| Please forgive me, I read the following excerpt out loud and
| used speech to text to get in here.
|
| --Excerpt Begin--
|
| Worrying can warn you of danger and evoke action to prepare for
| that danger. Respect your ability to worry as a means to alert
| you to potential danger. But the rapid flow of frightening
| thoughts characteristic of most counterproductive worrying
| simply creates more threats - you think, "it would be awful if
| that happened. I couldn't stand it. I have to do well or else."
| Stopping there, with simply the frightening aspect of worrying,
| is like screaming "Danger!" Without knowing what to do or where
| to run. In effect, your screen has caused a lot of disturbance
| in people but has not told them what they can do to escape the
| danger. By alerting yourself to a potential danger without
| establishing a plan for how you will cope, you have done only
| half of the job of worrying. You've left out the positive work
| of worrying - developing an action plan.
|
| Once a threat is raised it must be dealt with to avoid worry
| and anxiety - that trap energy that can't be used productively
| now. Until you reach a solution or cancel the threat, worrying
| can operate like a recurrent nightmare that repeats a puzzle or
| problem. Plans, action, and solutions are required to direct
| the energy and complete the work of worrying.
|
| Procrastination is an ineffective way to cope with worrying
| because it stalls action and simply piles up more worries. The
| worry that accompanies procrastination is usually learned very
| early in life. Parents, bosses, and teachers often use threats
| and images of disaster to motivate us to achieve goals they
| have chosen. This belief that vinegar can motivate better than
| honey is so prevalent among those in charge of our schools,
| factories, and offices that most of us suffer from some form of
| fear of failure and worry about being unacceptable because of
| our imperfection.
|
| Familiar examples are the boss who stingly withholds
| compliments for the work completed while freely criticizing
| what is unfinished and imperfect, saying, "You'll have to do a
| lot better than this.. there's a lot more to do and I need this
| as soon as possible." Or the parent or teacher who tries to
| motivate by saying, "So what if you got three A's, why did you
| only get a B in math?"
|
| This terrible training - that your work is never good enough -
| leads to the belief that you are never good enough to satisfy a
| parent or a boss. Feeling ineffectual regardless of how hard
| you try is very depressing and damaging to yourself work.
| Without an established sense of worth that bounces back from
| criticism in the face of normal mistakes, it is extremely
| difficult to step into the work arena, where some failures can
| be anticipated and where the longed-for praise for hard work
| and progress is seldom forthcoming. Eventually the risks seem
| too great to take and the threats lose their ability to
| motivate you.
|
| This syndrome is particularly sad when people with talent will
| not risk trying for fear of being less than number one. At its
| worst, their perfectionism and fear of failure ( failure being
| defined as being less than perfect ( cause them to let their
| own talents atrophy rather than complete a task and risk being
| found second best. The more common solution for individuals
| raised on threats is to use their own threatening self-talk in
| an effort to win approval by mimicking their critical mentors.
| Rather than helping them to face their fears, such threats will
| only contribute to the procrastination cycle: threatening self-
| talk leads to anxiety, then to resistance, resulting in
| procrastination. Procrastination May temporarily lessen the
| tension of facing a challenging project and the risk of
| failing, but it cannot help you escape worry.
|
| . . .
|
| For 10 years Judith, a bright young accountant, suffered from
| worries about losing her job because of her continual
| procrastination. Judith continued to push herself to work in an
| insurance firm that others had left years before because of the
| cold and pressured atmosphere. After all, she had learned at an
| early age that she was lazy and inadequate, that there was
| always more that could be done, and that she needed constant
| reminding and pressure from those who said they cared about
| her.
|
| In Judith's family individual progress was seldom acknowledge
| unless it was compared well with what others were doing. This
| pressure to do the best was constant whether the arena was
| school, sports, or musical talent. So it it did not surprise
| Judith when her boss turned out to be someone who provided a
| similar scarcity of praise and in abundance of pressure. From
| the boss's point of view, Judas motivation was supposed to come
| from her salary and the pressure and threats he used so
| frequently.
|
| But for Judith, her working conditions only verified
| insecurities learned much earlier. She felt that she didn't
| deserve much, and fear both failure and success. She said: "I
| might do something wrong, and they'll think I'm dumb. I feel
| that people are constantly judging me and that I keep coming up
| short. But I know, if they were to say I'm smart or talented,
| I'd still feel anxious because then I'd have to be that way all
| the time."
|
| The constant fear of being criticized or fired kept Judith in
| stress and poor health most of the time. But it was her
| procrastination and her fear of doing increasingly poor work
| that motivated her to seek help. Like most procrastinators,
| Judith was a good worker. She wasn't lazy. It was the pressure
| and the fear of failure that began to block her ability to
| work. As the stress of anticipated criticism for inadequate
| work increased and the praised dwindled, Judith's motivation
| and self-confidence began to dry up. More and more she relied
| on procrastination as a way to escape and to express her
| resentment.
|
| It didn't take much for Judith to see that her boss's threats
| and withholding of praise recreated her family environment. And
| when Judith recognized that her family environment had taught
| her low self-esteem, victimhood, resistance and then
| destructive coping strategies such as procrastination, she was
| eager to change her current environment.
|
| Even before I discussed the work of worrying as a way to reduce
| her stress, Judith on her own had begun to consider "what is
| the worst happened." She realized that though it would be
| extremely embarrassing and difficult for her, she could face
| being fired and that, in some ways it would be a welcome
| relief. In fact, given her timidity and low self-esteem, it was
| hard to imagine how she would ever be motivated to look for a
| better job unless she was fired.
|
| But Judas had decided she wanted more. She wanted to be freely
| acknowledged for her work and her talents. Judith was
| determined to find people who could appreciate her for who she
| was and what she could do, rather than seeking out those who
| always demanded that she be something different. She no longer
| wanted to work under conditions that lowered her self-esteem.
| Having face the worst that could happen - being fired - Judas
| has prepared herself with safety nets of compassionate self-
| talk and concrete alternatives that would help her cope while
| looking for a new job.
|
| Judith had started the first step of a six-step process for
| facing fears and creating safety. These steps take you beyond
| "what if" and direct the block energy of anxiety towards
| constructive preparation for potential danger. When you are
| continually worried about failing on a project or losing a job,
| ask yourself these six questions as part of your work of
| worrying:
|
| One. What is the worst that could happen? Too. What would I do
| if the worst really happened? Three. How would I lessen the
| pain and get on with as much happiness as possible if the worst
| did occur? Four. What alternatives would I have? Five. What can
| I do now to lessen the probability of this dreaded event
| occurring? Six. Is there anything I can do now to increase my
| chances of achieving my goal?
|
| By using the work of worrying, creating safety, and using the
| language of the producer, you are establishing skills for
| maintaining genuine self-confidence. Most people wish for an
| illusory confidence that says, "I must know that I will win; I
| should have a guarantee that nothing will go wrong." This
| leaves you at a severe disadvantage because you haven't
| considered "what will I do if something does go wrong?" Trying
| to control things so they go just as you imagine them takes
| enormous energy, keeps you blind to what could go wrong, keeps
| you from planning for a strategic retreat, and drains you the
| energy necessary for bouncing back.
|
| True confidence is knowing that whether you're calm or anxious,
| whether you succeed or fail, you'll do your best and, if
| necessary, be ready to pick yourself up to carry on and try
| again. True confidence is the ability to say, "I am prepared
| for the worst, now I can focus on the work that will lead to
| the best."
|
| -- Excerpt End--
|
| [0] (affiliate/commission link: https://amzn.to/3HKf3as ),
| (non-affiliate/non-commission link: https://www.amazon.com/Now-
| Habit-Overcoming-Procrastination-... )
| cipheredStones wrote:
| I've owned The Now Habit since 2011 - unread, which gets
| funnier every year.
| low_tech_love wrote:
| If you landed a good job afterwards, I'd say those four months
| were necessary and even beneficial. Sometimes your body/mind
| will simply force you to stop, and procrastination can be one
| of their tricks to convince you to do it.
| cipheredStones wrote:
| I'm quite sure that they were not: anxiety-driven avoidance
| is far more stressful and exhausting for me than any fruitful
| work. And having a constant feeling that you ought to be
| making up for lost time is a serious bar to genuine
| relaxation.
|
| I did need a break after my last job, and it's very possible
| that contributed to the problems I had, but this was
| definitely a bug, not a feature.
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| God, even your description of that makes my skin crawl in
| recognition.
| medstrom wrote:
| Exactly. It's not a way to relax, it's more like spinning
| your wheels in place and having the engine overheat from
| all the wheel spinning. You just feel worse and worse the
| longer you stay in that state.
| codeisawesome wrote:
| Would you believe me if I told you I'd explained this
| with that exact metaphor to someone relatively recently?
| I literally mean with those same words in that exact
| order. This feels matrix-y :)
| drakonka wrote:
| This is interesting since it reminds me of the dynamic I have
| with my boyfriend as well. We seem to be opposites in this
| regard.
|
| I work better alone. Having someone else there, even if they
| aren't purposefully distracting me, just adds another tiny bit
| of awareness: Is he hungry? Is he bored? Does he want coffee?
| We haven't had lunch - should I cook? I should tidy. I feel
| like when there's a guest in my house I need to take care of
| them somehow, and make the place (and myself) presentable. When
| I'm by myself I can just focus on work, forget to eat for a
| day, and not bother cleaning my house and nobody will give a
| crap.
|
| Even when I know he is totally fine fasting all day with me if
| that's what it takes while we focus, I still get concerned with
| starving the poor guy while I'm in "the zone". And often he
| cooks for us as well, which is nice and very appreciated, but
| then I'm distracted by eating and then thinking about how I
| should return the favor that evening by preparing dinner. But
| what if I was going to work through the evening?! You get the
| idea... I much prefer to be selfishly alone and not think about
| anyone else's presence.
|
| But my boyfriend seems to be the opposite, and closer to what
| you're describing. He sometimes likes coming over specifically
| to work. He says my focus on work during the day helps him
| focus and stop procrastinating, too. In the end, we compromise.
| I find a way to still be productive and focus when he's here,
| and accept that I'll just feel a little bit bad about not
| paying attention to my visitor.
| noduerme wrote:
| I'm a non-eater (24-hr faster, usually this goes along with
| other manic, focused, driven episodes where I'm really being
| the best I can be at what I do). I lived for 10 yrs with my
| ex-gf (still my business partner and best friend) who used to
| have these worries about me, even though we were both working
| together. I was like _don 't worry about me, I'm fine_ -it
| was always she who needed to eat. She kind of put it onto me.
| Eventually, she'd get up and cook herself food. But she was
| more like me. She was driven to work too.
|
| Now I'm with a woman who's the opposite. She'll come over for
| the weekend and sit there quietly for 8 hours while I work
| and the whole time I know she's starving or bored and I feel
| like a shitty boyfriend. She'll be reading a book or texting
| her friends and in the back of my mind I'm like, uh, why are
| you in my house? Like, you could have this much fun in a
| dentist's waiting room. You think you're not experiencing
| _aloneness_ but you don 't know how to be _alone with someone
| else_ so we 're in this situation where I have a knot in my
| stomach because all I want to do is work, and you have a knot
| because you're waiting for me to say something to you. This
| is not how it was with my ex.
|
| I think maybe if I read way between the lines, you and your
| bf haven't quite established how to _truly_ be alone together
| and take care of your _own_ needs (or he hasn 't).
|
| On the other hand, this is what it's like to have a pet. The
| more expensive the pet, the more care it requires. If you're
| a true nihilist and you don't even enjoy the company, maybe
| you just enjoy that extra little bit of stress it brings you
| to have to deal with their problems.
|
| It's true that when my gf or my ex ever had problems, they
| lit a fire under me and gave me a reason to care; my work
| became more stressful, but it was _in service to something_
| that I finished it. Because there 's some other, imminent
| problem in my life, in the form of another human being who
| needs my attention. People with children can probably attest
| to this, although, thank God, I'm not one of them. They say
| it makes your life seem more meaningful. Occasionally that
| might be true.
| drakonka wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. I think in my case it's mostly like you
| and your ex-gf. I just have trouble internalizing the fact
| that I don't need to think about him while we're working.
| My boyfriend says he's totally fine sitting there not
| getting any attention when he knows we are in work mode. He
| _does_ have a higher requirement than what I was used to
| for spending quality time with each other in general, but
| it does not extend to work-time (according to him). It's
| just that on weekdays, my entire day late into the night
| could be work-time. I think knowing quality time is
| important to him is partly what makes me feel this need to
| pay attention to him, or feed him, or something while he's
| here for work. But that is a me-problem vs a he-problem.
|
| He regularly tells me that he is fine eating one meal a day
| or not at all, but I still feel the compulsion to make
| snacks all the time when he's here. He is a big person and
| needs way more calories than I do to maintain his desired
| weight. Even though he says he's fine with not eating I see
| him shoveling down three times as much food as I normally
| do when we do eat, and then making more rice or popcorn
| later to top up. It makes me think "Holy crap, poor guy
| hasn't eaten all day and now he's starved." Which is silly,
| because of course he can get up and get his own food while
| we work if he's hungry.
|
| I also have pets, and do enjoy their company. They are
| quite high maintenance, but they're cats. They come over
| and lick my head when they want attention and then go back
| to napping nearby. I could not handle children and am in
| awe of those who do.
| netizen-936824 wrote:
| I have a similar issue. Its hard for me to get work done when
| there are other people around whether its at my place or
| someone else's. Just the fact that another person is there
| can be super distracting to me and it makes it difficult to
| get into a flow state. This is a problem I don't know how to
| deal with honestly, besides just not working on important
| stuff when around other people. It does impact me a little at
| work but luckily I'm pretty solo 90% of the time when I'm
| there
| noduerme wrote:
| If you work freelance with someone who's also your lover, I
| highly recommend going to a cafe where you can sit across
| the table and literally only talk about (1) work or (2) a
| brief, funny thing you saw on the internet, which I don't
| want to bother you with but it's so good you have to stop
| for 30 seconds and see it. During your work hours. And
| where you can otherwise ignore each other, or go on a walk
| alone, or read a book, and there are servers to bring you
| coffee or food so you don't have to do it for yourself or
| each other. And then you finish and you don't take the work
| home with you. Tip your waiter well.
|
| [edit] This presumes you are really good at working with
| random conversation happening around you. To me, it
| actually helps me focus if there's chatter going on. But it
| _really_ helps if the chatter is in a language I don 't
| understand well.
| anilakar wrote:
| The mere awareness of stuff happening around in the office
| is enough to prevent me from focusing on anything. At home,
| the main source of distraction is the endless queue of
| undone household chores all around me.
|
| Over half of my committed code has been written at work
| after hours in complete silence.
| codeisawesome wrote:
| > Is he hungry? Is he bored? Does he want coffee? We haven't
| had lunch - should I cook? I should tidy.
|
| That inner monologue is somehow humorous; but wow, you seem
| to be such a considerate partner!
| romwell wrote:
| > He sometimes likes coming over specifically to work. He
| says my focus on work during the day helps him focus and stop
| procrastinating, too. In the end, we compromise
|
| FYI: That's an ADHD trait, and what you are describing is a
| common technique to combat executive dysfunction called body
| doubling[1].
|
| One trait isn't an indication of anything, but a dozen could
| be; maybe show him this- I wrote up my experience here:
| https://romankogan.net/adhd
|
| [1]https://romankogan.net/adhd/#Body%20Double
| pokepim wrote:
| Ugh I feel you, had same situation, except I can't live with my
| gf due all the border closures and lockdowns so it was extra
| hard for me. You should consider yourself very lucky and
| privileged.
| cipheredStones wrote:
| I do - and I sympathize, because I was living 600 miles away
| from my girlfriend before the pandemic, and it was everything
| going remote that let me move to be near her.
| sandos wrote:
| I was going to mention doing things in pairs really helps, or
| maybe just mentioning plans to others.
|
| Me and my fiancee are both slackers in general, but when we
| start even discussing doing a project aorund the house or
| similar which is in any way together we always give it 100%.
| mlatu wrote:
| ymmv... the moment i show my work to others is usually when i
| step into the next procrastinatory phase...
| 2-718-281-828 wrote:
| I don't think it is totally straightforward what to take away
| from that experience. I mean one option is to tackle everything
| that has to be done eventually right on instead of postponing
| it. But on the other hand how about learning to relax and have
| some trust in yourself and that things will work out. This is
| what I would strive to learn. And I am saying as somebody
| suffering from the same ailment. I experienced what you
| describe myself. Why so anxious, so worried all the time - I'll
| die eventually anyway most likely from cancer like all of us -
| but I cannot even relax a few months? I'm not even financially
| stressed.
| NotVerstappen wrote:
| Been battling with this mindset shift myself. When I get
| annoyed with myself for delaying a task I try to remember the
| concept of "last responsible moment" from the Agile
| methodology books; after all I've never missed an important
| deadline so far, so clearly my effort-estimate calibration
| isn't far off.
| jacquesm wrote:
| What _really_ gets me is that if I push stuff off and then
| finally get around to it how little time it usually takes to
| deal with the thing I 've been putting off. I'm quite capable
| of spending 3 days to avoid 10 minutes of concentrated hard
| work. Very frustrating.
| k8sToGo wrote:
| I think that is part of the problem. If it doesn't take much
| time, then I can just do it later... :(
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| I discovered this in my early 20s and it has been the key to
| my rarely if ever dealing with with issues with
| procrastination. When I think of something I don't want to do
| immediately, one of the first things that pops into my head
| is both how quickly it will get done _and how good it will
| feel to have it done,_ and so I do it right then and there.
|
| The satisfaction of knocking off something you didn't want to
| do is the corollary to the negative feelings holding you
| back, and it's the key to establishing a positive feedback
| loop in place of the painful one you're experiencing.
| hiptobecubic wrote:
| For that to work you need to be able to frame the problem
| as something that _can_ be done immediately. If the problem
| has a blocking step, like "fill out this form, then in two
| weeks, check back to see if it worked," I find it much
| harder to see the joy in completing the task.
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| I normally approach that mentally as advancing the task
| towards completion, and as a matter of framing I try to
| remember that larger tasks feel better to complete than
| bite-sized ones. The regular practice of this approach
| gives one reinforcing feedback loop of 'momentum' and a
| mental image of oneself as a person who gets things done,
| which reduces the feeling of inertia that contributes to
| the sort of shame spirals we're talking about.
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| Honestly, having seen some of what you have done in the past,
| it seems almost absurd to think of you struggling with
| procrastination.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's an interesting observation: yes, I do get stuff
| done, in the end. But the path to it is usually long,
| torturous and leads along many places that weren't the
| destination along the way and plenty of that could be
| avoided. And quite a few of my achievements are probably
| the result of procrastinating on something else!
|
| I wonder how the real achievers (Fabrice Bellard?) deal
| with these sort of things.
|
| And also: _what_ I need to do makes all the difference.
| Work on my bike: Present! Work on the company VAT
| reporting? Oh, I think I need to go play some piano. Hm,
| interesting bug in pianojacq, I should fix that. Hm, even
| more interesting, this allows me to refactor that bit.
| Then, on the 29th of the month I will work on the VAT
| filing.
| Moru wrote:
| Pay someone to do the VAT filing for you. There are
| people that actually likes to play with that stuff so why
| don't you do the things you enjoy doing? Ok, I have no
| idea how much work the VAT stuff is, I'm not from US. But
| in general, remove the unneeded stress from life and
| enjoy it instead. Don't try to be a success, it's OK to
| just get along with life and family. Live on one salary
| if you can, split the time 50/50 between the two of you
| and just live cheap instead. Spend the extra time
| together with family doing things you enjoy.
| jacquesm wrote:
| I do. But even that requires me to hunt up all the
| receipts, send in all invoices received and all invoices
| sent. So there is always at least half a days' worth of
| work in there.
| derekdahmer wrote:
| I can relate to this a lot. The one silver lining of the
| shameful, interminable hell that is procrastination is
| the random skills that come out of it.
|
| I was so dysfunctional at my last job during covid-
| induced WFH I found time to completely redo my backyard,
| which included tasks like "research sod options, schedule
| a delivery, learn how to install it and lay it before it
| dies" which if someone officially assigned me to do I
| never would have been able to get myself to complete.
| jacquesm wrote:
| That hits way too close to comfort.
| dceddia wrote:
| This feels very relatable to me. Looking back, I'm pretty
| sure a few large projects spawned out of procrastinating
| on some _other_ project I was supposed to be doing.
|
| One was installing a tile floor in the kitchen, including
| lots of research, sistering joists, ripping up the old
| floor, etc etc. And replacing the kitchen range, which
| required a range hood, which required some cabinet mods.
| Lots of interesting new DIY skills learned in that
| project.
|
| And then last year, building a video editor, instead of
| recording some videos for a course.
| jacquesm wrote:
| You take it to the next level :) Arguably, pianojacq.com
| was built so that I could put off practicing piano.
| NackerHughes wrote:
| Well that's all well and good for those who have somebody who
| loves them. What if you're single? Guess we're all doomed.
| a-dub wrote:
| nah. you can have non-romantic accountability partners.
|
| in fact, i'd say it's more the norm than the exception. (and
| often sort of emergent and far from the phrase
| "accountability partner", which is a bit formal)
| cipheredStones wrote:
| The level of pessimism here seems a bit gratuitous. Working
| with my partner worked well for me, but I've seen people in
| similar situations achieve a lot of success through
| participating in supportive online communities (e.g. a Slack
| group for alumni of a coding bootcamp), or coworking with
| friends (whether or not everybody is working on the same
| stuff). Therapy can also be helpful, both in addressing the
| roots of the problem and in providing some external
| accountability. And there are doubtless many other options if
| you look around a little.
| mlatu wrote:
| i read an article about how we should all form squads, that
| is turn your main memetic friendgroup into a economical and
| carework selfhelp squad... or something, i have since lost
| the link to the article though...
| nefitty wrote:
| A lot of my guilt around my job search is failing the trad
| "male provider" role and seemingly inherent status anxiety
| around being a man.
|
| I would feel fine working at 711 and coming home to grind on
| code. I'm not an atom though. My wife can't pay the rent alone
| forever and my dog needs to seemingly eat every day. I've gone
| through this cycle previously before pursuing coding
| professionally, and this time I at least have the consolation
| of knowing my next salary will more than make up for my many
| strings of resigned couch tending.
|
| I'm also now thoroughly convinced that our behavior can be
| chemically diverted. I don't feel like a piece of shit when I
| feel sad or unmotivated anymore, just more like a puzzle that's
| temporarily missing some neuromolecular pieces.
| wayanon wrote:
| Reminds me of the 'study with me' YouTube videos - try some,
| it's weird!
| alexdig wrote:
| Fully agreed. I used the videos from StudyMD and it's been
| super helpful in the past few weeks.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I can relate to working with others. So far in the WFH pandemic
| I've been mostly all right, but I work so much better in a
| team, with someone actually telling me what to do, what they
| expect, instead of me having that responsibility myself.
|
| I'm guessing it's a 'subservient' personality trait of sorts.
| Others are 'natural' leaders, good at keeping an overview of
| what needs to be done and distributing that. Others are self-
| motivated and driven and make amazing things all on their own.
| And all of those probably fit in a venn diagram.
| scollet wrote:
| I'm glad you're having a positive experience.
|
| I really like my current company because it's small but
| people have well-defined wheelhouses. I don't really have to
| think too hard except when I need to defer to more
| experienced engineers.
| ilikerashers wrote:
| I don't think you're subservient, you just prefer to be part
| of a tribe which is normal. Even the self-motivated, natural
| leaders have strong supports to ensure that the tribe around
| them keeps them sane.
|
| It's much more difficult to proliferate culture at home and I
| think people are having to compensate by forcing themselves
| to work, without any of the cues they normally get in the
| office.
| photochemsyn wrote:
| Procrastination, definition: "to delay doing something that you
| should do, usually because you do not want to do it"
|
| Should, definition: "used to show what is right, appropriate,
| etc., especially when criticizing somebody's actions"
|
| Appropriate, definition: "suitable, acceptable or correct for the
| particular circumstances"
|
| I think we're going into circular definitions here. However, it
| all comes down to motivation, i.e. what's the motive for doing
| something? Disapproval of one's social group? Disapproval of
| one's employer? Disapproval of one's customer? Disapproval of
| one's neighbor? Disapproval of one's self?
|
| Uncomfortable question: are the social norms themselves actually
| healthy or can an entire society be fundamentally sick, such that
| many of the norms encourage destructive behavior, mental illness,
| etc.? In which case, certain forms of procrastination (i.e., not
| conforming to said social norms) can actually be healthy. See:
| workaholic syndrome.
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