[HN Gopher] How to Quit Like a Boss
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How to Quit Like a Boss
Author : stuhlmueller
Score : 37 points
Date : 2022-01-06 21:16 UTC (1 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jmsbrdy.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (jmsbrdy.com)
| feisar wrote:
| Good work to those who wrote it. If you have a better contract in
| hand then yes you should probably quit. With that being said
| however if you leave on bad terms and your next job asks to
| contact the manager from your previous job the would probably say
| that you left on bad terms and might ruin your reputation.
| alfalfasprout wrote:
| I'm glad that things worked out for the author but this is just
| generally not great advice for most people.
|
| As nice as your manager is, even if they have your best interests
| in mind, they ultimately answer to someone else. And that means
| that even if they don't want to, they can f*k you over with
| minimal notice anyways. There's a power imbalance there.
|
| Certainly don't be a dick about leaving and burn a ton of
| bridges... but the standard 2 weeks with professional and minimal
| responses is the way to go.
| diek00 wrote:
| This title needs an edit, like many of those noted, "How to Quit
| Like a Boss when you work for Rational People". Many places have
| toxic irrational people who would fire you in an instant and then
| have security escort you out of the office like a criminal.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| When you let your manager know you're unhappy then they can also
| quickly move to hire a replacement and fire you. You don't own a
| company anything beyond the last paycheck you received. Two weeks
| notice is the norm and, hey, it's just business. Don't take it
| personally if an employee leaves.
| jamesbrady wrote:
| Your first sentence is true. Perhaps it's overly reductive of
| me, but if that's what your boss would do you're in that red
| "you should leave anyway" box, in my opinion.
|
| A few other commenters have pointed out good reasons (e.g.
| visas) where you need to keep your cards closer to your chest,
| but the vast majority of people reading Hacker News _can_ find
| a role where it 's not so transactional. Where you're valued as
| a person and teammate, and where you can have a grown-up
| conversation about your career plans.
|
| Those open conversations are harder to have if you truly
| believe your second sentence, however!
| CapitalistCartr wrote:
| This is excellent advice for those working in a rational
| environment. For those working in an ego-driven environment, not
| so much. Plan your exit strategy as you would from an abusive
| spouse. Don't assume good faith on anyone else's part.
| lmilcin wrote:
| I worked in many places including ego-driven, political and/or
| irrational.
|
| Leaving gracefully has never backfired on me. Actually, the
| opposite happened. Leaving gracefully has left me with some
| good friends and has led me to opportunities from people I
| worked with in the past and have became successful in the
| meantime.
|
| Additionally, at almost every company I happen to work with
| somebody that I have known before. Answer yourself, do you
| really want your ungraceful exit to become a problem at your
| new company now or in the future? What does it cost you to
| leave gracefully?
| chadcmulligan wrote:
| Indeed, I was thinking where are these rational managers where
| you can discuss things openly. It seems the world of management
| is full of petty narcissistic control freaks.
| jamesbrady wrote:
| I'm sorry that's been your experience!
|
| These managers definitely do exist - I have had them, I have
| seen them, and I have _tried_ to be one.
|
| Perhaps I should have included "rational conversation is
| possible" as a decision point in the flowchart, with a
| negative answer leading to "you should leave anyway"!
| mds wrote:
| In a rational environment if you're leaving "for cause", it
| shouldn't come as a shock to your employer when you quit, in
| the same way a bad performance review or firing shouldn't come
| as a shock to the employee. There should be feedback in both
| directions, if they're not meeting your career goals or you're
| not meeting their performance goals.
|
| But as a rule I wouldn't tell my boss I'm actively interviewing
| until I have an offer in hand. Just like, and for a lot of the
| same reasons, the company as a rule isn't going to inform
| under-performing employees that they're actively looking to
| hire someone to replace them before firing them.
| rsstack wrote:
| People here have been burnt by bad managers and it's honestly
| sad. If you have a personal relationship with your manager beyond
| emails and "how was your weekend", there's a good chance they
| will appreciate your longer notice (not 10 months!) and you'll
| keep them on your side for the rest of your career. I gave a
| 2-months notice once, and my manager's manager even helped me
| find my next role at a different company (which I ended up taking
| instead of an offer from Facebook).
|
| I can't remember which company it was, but some startup CEO
| posted on Hacker News a few months ago that they have a proper
| procedure for "long notices" where they help employees, even if
| they decide to stay at the end of it. That should be the goal in
| my opinion.
|
| P.S.: Yes, it can be more tricky in large corporations where the
| manager isn't independent and their manager is vindictive.
| jamesbrady wrote:
| Exactly, this sounds like such a grown-up way to wind down a
| working relationship! I'm sure you'll stay in touch with that
| person and perhaps even refer people in their direction in the
| future.
| givemeethekeys wrote:
| "Don't hate the player, hate the game".
|
| The game in California is "at will employment". I don't know
| about other industries, but most tech firms will lay you off with
| 0 days of notice if they no longer need your services, for
| example, to save money.
|
| On the other hand, loyalty to people may or may not be worthwhile
| - this very much depends on the people and your experience may be
| drastically different from everyone else'.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Eh... kind of? Like, I don't disagree that there are reasonable
| points here, but:
|
| > Quitting should never be a surprise for your boss
|
| > What's the worst that can happen?
|
| Not a total surprise, but in many environments even hinting that
| you're looking to leave will... greatly increase the urgency of
| your search. They might not terminate you outright (or they may),
| but it's gonna make the rest of your time there a lot less fun.
| The worst that can happen is that you admit you're thinking about
| leaving and get escorted out by security. Obviously it depends
| exactly what we mean by not being a surprise; problems should
| generally be communicated... perhaps it would be better to say
| "Your boss should be able to say why you left"?
|
| > Match your notice period to the handover period
|
| I personally think the handover part is a symptom; at least for
| the kind of work I do, if there was truly that much to hand over
| something already failed. Process goes in wiki, tasks go in Jira,
| code goes in version control... sure, there will always be a few
| things that only you really understood and some in-flight work
| that's not fully written down in a ticket, but IMO if it takes
| you even 2 full weeks to exit gracefully then either you messed
| up or the company messed up (ex. there was no other person to
| hand off _to_ and they couldn 't hire that fast).
| lelandfe wrote:
| > in many environments even hinting that you're looking to
| leave will... greatly increase the urgency of your search
|
| Just to provide a single anecdote of this, my friend worked as
| a recruiter at a well known company. If higher ups got proof
| that you had applied to another job, you would be terminated
| day of and whisked out of the office by security.
|
| The stories from him and his coworkers of the subterfuge
| involved in job applications were impressive.
| jamesbrady wrote:
| Hmm, I hear you on the first point... Perhaps I'm blinkered to
| roles in tech (to which this post was aimed, but not explicitly
| enough)?
|
| In my experience at such companies, people certainly aren't
| walked if they express dissatisfaction in their role - but
| you're right that this doesn't necessarily transfer onto roles
| which are less competitive. I will think about how to tighten
| that piece up: thanks for the feedback.
|
| On the second point, I can only congratulate you if you manage
| to keep everything so organised and compartmentalised! It's
| something I've aspired to but always fallen short of.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Right, unless the job/manager are totally insane they should
| never be surprised that you are to some degree dissatisfied.
| But in many jobs, it is to the employee's benefit to operate
| in such a way that the manager _is_ surprised that they 're
| _actually_ leaving.
| ska wrote:
| > "Your boss should be able to say why you left"?
|
| Not just say why, but this has been an ongoing discussion
| between you with attempts to resolve it (assuming everything is
| working as it should).
| jamesbrady wrote:
| I like this phrasing and will steal it henceforth.
| ragnot wrote:
| Honestly, it's really simple: two weeks and that's it.
|
| Been there 2 years and haven't gotten a raise/promotion? 2 weeks.
|
| Been there 10 years and are bored/didn't get what you want? 2
| weeks.
|
| Don't fall over yourself helping the company. Chances are they
| are going to forget you in 3 months anyway.
| sasawpg wrote:
| In case of your death, a replacement job posting will be up
| before your obituary. 10 months is crazy.
| seaman1921 wrote:
| Well of course an opening will be posted immediately if one
| dies - whats the point of waiting in that scenario ?
|
| That doesn't justify being a jerk and quitting without making
| an effort to ensure that the transition is smooth for your
| colleagues.
| paxys wrote:
| I don't get this advice. At least in tech it is understood that
| _everyone_ has their eye open for the next big opportunity. If
| one comes along, I 'm not going to hesitate to take it. It
| doesn't have to mean that there's a problem in my current role
| that I need to address with my manager. Sometimes you simply know
| that it is time to leave and try something new. If my current
| company is "surprised" by my decision and unprepared for my
| absence then that's on them.
| jamesbrady wrote:
| > it is understood that everyone has their eye open for the
| next big opportunity
|
| This hasn't been my approach, nor has it been for many people
| I've worked with - or perhaps we're tripping over language?
|
| Let's say that someone is super motivated by a high salary.
| They would be helping their manager (and, in most situations,
| themselves) if they were open about that. Up to and including
| conversations like "I hear that Company X is paying 20% more
| for a comparable role - here's some data to show I'm
| underpaid".
|
| It's those kinds of conversations which would mean that your
| manager _won 't_ be surprised if in 6 months you leave for a
| better-paying role. Or, perhaps you get a nice pay rise. Or, if
| you _can 't_ have such conversations, see the red "you should
| leave anyway" box in the post!
| marbletimes wrote:
| But if you know that the current company cannot pay like the
| other company you are interviewing for, or that in this new
| company the future salary outlook is much better, why bother
| asking if they can pay you more?
|
| In the work life, one needs to be strategic; it appears to me
| that most people on here who are commenting somewhat
| negatively about people giving 2-week notice and nothing else
| have never been laid off or fired or somewhat "mistreated" by
| a company.
|
| The way to be an excellent employee is to always deliver work
| to the best of one's capabilities and give 2-week notice
| before leaving. In one company I worked for, somebody gave a
| 2-week notice and was let go immediately. It is not unheard
| of, and most legacy companies could not care less about a
| possible PR problem. Those legacy companies live in a galaxy
| that is far away from the one inhabited by start-ups and
| similar good PR-dependent companies, they are populated
| mostly by old dinosaurs that recruit heavily among the not-
| too-brilliant technical people.
| Den-vr wrote:
| I especially agree on the approach regarding pay. Contrast
| that with "I have an offer from Company X that is 20% more,
| can you match it?" In the former case, you can be seen as
| expressing a sort of loyalty, in the latter case you live
| with a little extra workplace hostility even if your current
| employer agreed to match the offer. In that sense, when it's
| time to go it's best to go.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| That's an insanely pollyanna take on quitting. What's the worst
| that could happen? You could get fired for looking for another
| job. This happens. Most people I know have worked for someone
| toxic, or worked for a toxic organization.
|
| If you work for nice people and things just don't align, yeah,
| sure, this approach may be fine, but it's by no means universal.
| simplestats wrote:
| I think the assumption is getting fired instantly from a toxic
| organization is probably a good thing. The problem is that a
| high likelihood of a better outcome (as opposed to ending up
| living in your car), still isn't a guarantee.
|
| The most risk-averse strategy should still use some of the
| advice posted here, but concerns like minimizing other people's
| problems and your own guilt are not worth the dangers.
| jamesbrady wrote:
| > the assumption is getting fired instantly from a toxic
| organization is probably a good thing
|
| That's correct - although I definitely take on board some of
| the other commenters' feedback about things like visas tied
| to roles. I'm going to add some clarification to make it
| clear this really relates to employees in good standing in
| tech companies (obviously a tiny minority of the populace and
| one of the few groups who have the guarantee you mention).
| cosmotic wrote:
| Heeding this advice would be much more generous than employers
| typically are, especially in an at-will employment environment.
| In my experience, employers give zero notice and provide zero
| assistance helping an employee find a replacement.
| jamesbrady wrote:
| I think it depends on the situation. I definitely agree that
| performance-based firings would tend to be extremely brutal
| compared to the approach I advocate for here (largely due to
| the various risks posed by aggrieved employees).
|
| Perhaps I should add that this advice best (only?) applies if
| you're leaving a company in a sort of "natural parting of ways"
| kind of situation? Thanks for the feedback.
| cosmotic wrote:
| No only performance-based firings, but throw-someone-else-
| under-the-bus firings and bad-management firings. Also cost-
| cutting layoffs or outsourcing-layoffs.
|
| Regardless of the cause, an employer almost-always will
| require a separation agreement be signed as a requisite
| action for any amount of severance pay. This is entirely to
| the benefit of the employer.
| oblak wrote:
| I wasn't there but I was told a person communicated his message
| by taking a literal shit in the CEO (ex military, to give you
| some perspective) office.
| ram_rar wrote:
| > Quitting should never be a surprise for your boss
|
| I get the spirit of this. But someone whos in tech on a visa,
| this is absolutely the worse advice. The fear or retaliation is
| real, especially in bigger firms where your manager has a lot of
| say. The moment higher ups have the slightest inkling that you're
| looking for other jobs, you'll soon get pushed out.
| hodgesrm wrote:
| I know of a case where the manager actually called the INS
| after the employee left. Protect yourself and your family
| first. (I'm a manager myself.)
| jamesbrady wrote:
| Oh, I hadn't considered role-tied visas... that's a good point.
| Let me add a couple of "excepts" in there. "Never" is too
| absolute.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| I think the very first sentiment is the most universal one:
|
| Your quitting should not be a surprise to your manager.
|
| Just like year-end review (for those companies that have it)
| should not be a surprise to the employee - feedback should be
| continuous. Similarly, if your (rational, to another posters
| point) manager's reaction is one of complete shock and surprise,
| it may be a sign you two weren't communicating sufficiently and
| planned/discussed your
| goals/expectations/challenges/direction/etc.
| marbletimes wrote:
| The assumption here is that the employee leaving the company
| was due to some problems that could not be solved after careful
| discussion with the manager, skip-level etc. But leaving a
| company can also happen because another company offers you 50%
| more money or a different role, or you just feel like changing.
|
| For any employee, including managers, directors and up--there
| is only one thing to remember: when the company intends to let
| you go, they don't ask for your opinion. Two-week notice is
| professional and more than enough.
| jamesbrady wrote:
| Yes! Good point: the manager needs to create the forum for
| those conversations to happen but the report still needs to
| take it on themselves to have that sometimes-awkward
| conversation.
| kevingadd wrote:
| I always give 2 weeks notice before quitting and make the
| transition as easy as possible, doing handoff meetings and
| educating whoever's taking over.
|
| In exchange, I usually get shafted by the employer. In one case
| they tried to claw back a signing bonus (despite the employment
| agreement etc not giving them the right to do it - nice) and in
| another case the abusive studio head walked over and told me to
| take my shit and leave immediately despite the fact that I was a
| producer in charge of an entire team and hadn't done any handoff
| (shocking no one, the latter studio ended up shipping their
| product 4+ years behind schedule)
|
| So I guess my takeaway is that it's still valuable to be nice if
| you care about the impact on your teammates, but I don't think
| your boss deserves it. Especially now when many companies have a
| policy of not providing references beyond 'yes i can confirm that
| so-and-so worked here' - the concept of 'burning your bridges' by
| not being sufficiently deferential to your awful boss doesn't
| exist.
| billyhoffman wrote:
| Reasonable (though fairly hackneyed) advice. Until I get to this:
|
| > I let my boss know I was leaving in February, so my commitment
| to see things through to the end of the year was effectively a
| 10-month notice period.
|
| This, ironically, was the first sentence in a section entitled
| "Avoid giving too much notice"
|
| If you can't handoff your work in less than 2 weeks, either you
| as an employee have failed to properly document and communicate
| status of what you are doing, or the company culture has failed
| because it created an environment where someone could not pick up
| what you were doing and continue it. Why? Replace "quitting" with
| "suddenly died." Companies that can't recover from stuff like
| this are poorly run and with bad frontline managers.
|
| Short of being a founder and CEO of a startup who has to leave,
| and needs to gently hand it over so the company doesn't die,
| there is no valid reason for 10 months of notice. Hell, that is
| probably not a good reason.
| jamesbrady wrote:
| OP here, yeah I mention the 10 months thing as an example of
| what _not_ to do - the actual handover of tasks I did in maybe
| 1-2 months, and that was at a leisurely pace TBH. The first ~9
| months we were in a slightly weird limbo unfortunately - that
| 's what I was flagging up as an anti-pattern there.
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